April and May. I went from St. Omers to Brussels and from Brussels I came straight to London Lord Chief Just But when did you see Master Oate there Cox I can prove I saw him at St. Omers when he says he was in England and that by this circumstance Master Pool who was my Musick Master was sick there and Mr. Oates was often with him Lord Chief Justice Were you there all the time he was there Cox Yes I was till he went away Lord Chief Just When did he go away Cox Master Oates went away in the month of July Lord Chief Just Are you sure of that Cox Yes my Lord I am Lord Chief Just Not in June Cox No my Lord July Lord Chief Just Why he differs from all the rest Cox My Lord I can prove he was at St. Omers when he says he was in England Lord Chief J. Why what month did he go away Cox My Lord I can prove that Mr. Oates was never absent from St. Omers till he went away for good and all Lord Chief Just When was that Cox He went after the Consult of the Jesuits which he says was in England in April Lord Chief Just Come come Answer me plainly if you can in what month Mr. Oates left St. Omers Cox I say Mr. Oates was never absent from St. Omers till the Consult of the Jesuit was over which he hath confessed himself to be at Lord Chief Just When was that Cox Why it was after May 't is no matter what the month was whether June or July at which the people laughed Cox What do you laught at Sirs Why suppose I mistake the month it is no matter Lord Chief J. Look you we are now upon a Question of time and you cannot tell that a man iâ— there at a certain time unless you can prove the certain time when he came away Cox I can prove that he was there till after the Consult of the Jesuits and then the people laughed again L. C. J Ay I â—elieve you there 't is enough for you but you have done a very great prejudice to those persons that you came for for you come to prove the conclusion but do not take notice of what Mediums you are to use Say you if I can but prove that he was there till after the consult of the Jesuits that is the thing in Question and I need no more but this is serving a turn only Pray can you tell me what month he came to St. Omers Cox Yes he came thither in the month of December L. C. J. And when did he go away again Cox He was never absent from St. Omers out of the view of the Scholars except one night that he went to Watton and one day when he was in the Infirmary but even at that time he was seen by some of the Scholars L. C. J. Yet you cannot tell the time that he went away Cox He was never absent all the while Mr. Justice Windham Do you know when the Consult of the Jesuites was upon what day Cox He sayes he went away with Mr. Hilsley but he did not I can prove the contrary L. C. J. No no he says he followed him and overtook him at Calis Cox That is false and I can prove it by this Circumstance one Mr. Conquest was to go for England that day and he came into the Refectory and told us a story of this Mr. Conquests being unwilling to rise in the morning to go for England L C. J. When did he tell that story Cox That day that he was to go for England L. C. J. How long was that after Mr. Hilsley went away Cox The day after Gaven When was the time that Mr. Conquest went for England Cox In the month of May as we count L. C. J. What time in the month of May Cox It was the fifth and he says that Mr. Pool and Mr. Nevill were in England with him but I can testifie that they were not absent for one of them was my musick-master Lord Chief Just Was he there all May Cox Yes that I can testifie upon my Oath L. C. J. And all June Cox Yes my Lord but if I prove he was not in May in England it is sufficient L. C. J. Upon my word you deserve a sharp penance for running into that fault 2 or 3 times you have done them no kindness in this matter Gaven If your Lordship will take advantage of every Circumstance young men may not remember the particular day of his going away L. C. J. But you hear how he delivers his Evidence 't is as if he had been instructed you must come and prove that Oates was not in England in April and May and that will do our business for he tells you it is sufficient but we will have it proved to satisfie us Cox But why should I say more than I know L. C. J. You mean more than you are instructed about I only ask you one short question Do you know when Mr. Oates left St Omers Name the moneth Gaven If you don't remember the time say so Cox My Lord I cannot Remember it L. C J. Then call another Who stood up Dr. Oates My Lord I desire they may be Examined apart L. C. J. You need not trouble your self about that What is your name Billing My name is Thomas Billing L. C. J. When came you from S. Omers Billing I came 3 moneths ago I think my Lord. L. C. J. Do you know Mr. Oates Billing Yes my Lord very well L. C. J. When did you see him at St. Omers Billing My Lord I saw him when he came the same day or the day after L. C. J. When was that Billing In December my Lord the 10th of December L. C. J. And he staid there how long Billing Till the Latter end of June L. C. J. was he never absent Billing I can very well remember that he went to Watton in the Christmas I was then in he Infirmary my self and he and his Companion came in there to see us and said he had been at Watton L. C. J. But he was twice in the Infirmary was he not Billing Yes my Lord. L. C. J. When was the second time Billing The second time was in April I went in the week before Christmas on St. Thomas of Canterbury's day I came out again Lord Ch. Just But you say the second time was in April Billing Yes Lord Ch. Just How long was he there then Billing Truly I was not with him then but I think 3 or 4 days Lord Chief Just Were you in the Colledge then Billing Yes my Lord I was Lord Ch. Just Did you see him in the Colledge from time to time Billing Yes I did Lord Ch. Just How long Billing For all the time that he staid Lord Ch. Just How long was that Billing That was from December till the latter end of June Lord Ch. Just Was he there all May Billing Yes my Lord. He says he was 8 days in England
23 th of May L. C. J. How long have you been in England Bartlett About 5 or 6 weeks Lord Chief Just What is your Name Bartlett My Name is Bartlett Lord Chief Just But you say that you came over the 23 th of May. Bartlett I did not come over till the latter end of June Lord Chief Just Just now you said you came over the 23 th of May. Bartlett No my Lord I thought you had asked the question when Mr. Oates came over Mr. Just Pemberton He says so as your Lordship says before Lord Chief Just How do you know when Mr. Oates came over Bartlett I heard so beyond Sea Then one Carlier a Foreigner appearing and not being able to speak English Mr. Tisser the Under-sheriff of Middlesex was sworn truly to interpret his Testimony L. C. J. Mr Tisser you are only to tell us what he says Ask him when he came into England last Mr. Tisser He says my Lord it was between seven and eight weeks ago Lord Chief Just Ask him if he knows where Sir John Warner was last Summer was a year ago Mr. Tisser He says my Lord he was in Watton for two years last past L. C. J Ask him where he was all April was twelvemonth and all May Mr. Tisser My Lord he says that the last Sunday in April Sir John Warner was at his house at Watton Lord Chief Just And where was he all May Mr. Tisser In the same house Lord Chief Just Ask him how he does know Mr. Tisser My Lord he saith that he was a Gardener there L. C. J. It seems he says to the same effect as the last Witness did Call another Who did stand up L C. J. What is this mans name Gaven His name is Charles Verron L. C. J. Does he speak any English Gaven No he does not L. C. Just Then Mr. Tisser ask him if he knows Sir John Warner and where he was April and May was twelvemonth Lr. Tisser He says my Lord that he was at Watton all April and May and continued there till September L. C. J. Pray ask this man what quality he is of there Mr. Tisser He goes along with a Vessel between Saint Omers and Watton and that he knows it to be true Lord Chief J. Ask him if he did see him every day Mr. Tisser He says generally my Lord dayly Lord Chief Just Ask him what Religion he is of Mr. Tisser He says he is of the Roman Religion Then stood up one Baillee Lord Chief Just Ask him Mr. Tisser if he knows Sir John Warner and where he was all April and May was twelvemonth Mr. Tisser He says the same that he was at Watton all April and May. Lord Chief Just Ask him how he can tell Mr. Tisser He says he is a Servant of the House Lord Chief Just And did he see him there dayly Mr. Tisser My Lord he says that he gave him directions to make a Bastyment that he is a Mason and that he did give him directions dayly about it and that he saw him every day Lord Chief Just Look you Gentlemen of the Jury he speaks to the same purpose that the three Witnesses before spoke to he says he is a Mason and that he built a Bastyment there by direction from Sir John Warner and that Sir John Warner came dayly to give directions about it Then stood up John Joseph L. C. J. Do you know Sir Thomas Preston Joseph Yes my Lord. L. C. J. When did you see him Joseph In the months of April May and June L. C. J. Where was he then Joseph He was at the English House at Liege Lord Chief Just Did you see him there how often did you see him there Joseph I saw him there every day almost Lord Chief Just What occasion had you to see him what were you there Joseph I was Porter of the Gate Lord Chief Just And did you see him all the month of April Joseph Every day most commonly Lord Chief Just Did you see him once in a day or two Joseph I did see him in April May and June Lord Chief Just That you might do but did you see him very day Joseph Every day most commonly I cannot absolutely say but two or three days in a week Sir Cr. Levins Pray do you know of any time that Sir Tho. Preston was absent from Leige Joseph He was in the time of the vacancy Sir Cr. Levins Was he not absent in April or May Joseph No my Lord. Lord Chief Just When are the vacancies Joseph In August my Lord. Then stood up one Peter Carpenteer Lord Chief Just Do you know Sir Thâ— Preston Carpenteer Yes my Lord very well Lord Chief Just Where did you know him Carpenteer I knew him at Leige Lord Chief Just How often did you see him there in April and May. Carpenteer Every day I saw him there all April and May. Lord Chief Just What Office had you there Carpenteer I was Caterer Gaven My Lord we have no more Witnesses as to this point But my Lord my Case is different from the others Mr. Oates says he did not see me in the Congregation but he says he afterwards saw my hand to the Consult Now my Lord I have a Witness to prove that I was at that time at Wolverhampton in Staffordshire No body hath a right to sit in the Congregation till he become a professed Jesuit which at that time I was not Lord Chief Just He does not charge you to have been there though he says he saw your hand to it Gaven My Lord I was then in the Countrey Lord Chief Just North That will do you some and yet but little service if you can prove your self at Wolverhampton at that time but call your Witnesses L. C. J. Mr. Gaven he says he saw a Letter of yours giving an account how affairs stood in Staffordshire and Shropshire and that afterwards in July and before that Gentleman Mr. Ashby went to the Bath he heard you discourse of the same matter And though he cannot charge his memory to say he saw you the 24 th of April yet says he I did see his hand to the Consult and being asked how he knew your hand he says he knew it by your writing a Bill of Exchange in his presence Gaven I could not sign the Consult at London and not be at London Lord Chief J. North. I believe in such a business you care not how many hands you have but we will not prevent you calling your Witnesses You are upon your life don't spend the time call them quickly Lord Chief Just What do you call them to prove Gaven To prove that I was at Wolverhampton the 24 th and 25 th of April Lord Chief Just Pray hear what he says himself You say Sir you saw his hand to the Consult that was in April pray when was it that you saw it Dr. Oates It was in June or July Lord Chief Just North. You might set your hand
my self with all my heart and soul haveing used all the remedies I can I have cleared my self as to the main day the 24th of April whereon all the pretended Plot lies And I 'le bring Witnesses that shall swear I was not in London in August and if my eternal Salvation lay upon it I could averr I was not in London and I wish I may be made an example of justice before all the world in the sight of God I speak it if I be not the most innocent person in the world And my Lord seeing there is only his Oath for it and my denial I have onely one demand I don't know whether it be not an extravagant one or no if it be I don't desire to have it granted L. C. J. What is that Demand Gaven You know that in the beginning of the Church this learned and just Court must needs know that that for one thousand years together it was a custom and grew to a constant law for the Tryal of persons accused of any capital Offence where there was onely the accusers Oath and the Accused's denial for the prisoner to put himself upon the Tryal of Ordeal to evidence his own Innocencie L. C. J. North We have no such law now L. C. J. You are very fanciful Mr. Gaven you believe that your cunning in asking such a thing will take much with the auditory but this is onely an artificial Varnish You may do this with hopes of haveing it take with those that are Roman Catholicks who are so superstitious as to believe Innocency upon such desires but we have a plain way of understanding here in England and that helpt very much by the Protestant Religion so that there is scarce any Artifice big enough to impose upon us You ask a thing that sounds much of a pretence to innocencie and that it would be a mighty suffering if you should miscarry because you ask that you know you can't have Our Eyes and our understandings are lest us though you do not leave their Understannings to your Proselytes but you are mistaken if you think to impose that upon us that you do upon them and you do so impose upon them But I 'll tell you there is scarce any man with us that can be a Papist for you cannot deceive and gull us as you have done all that you have perverted to your way Gaven Is it any harm my Lord to ask whether I might not be so tried L. C. J. North look you here Mr. Gaven the time is far spent if you have any thing to say we will hear you if you have any witnesses call them and we will examine them but if not the other Prisoners must be admitted to make their defence as well as you Gaven All these six can prove that I was at Wolverhampton the last week in July Then another Witness stood up for him Gaven Where was I in July Witness I cannot speak to all July but my Lord I can declare that Mr. Gaven was in Staffordshire the last week of July every day I am confident L. C. J. Where was the first three weeks in July Witness I cannot speak as to that but in the last week in July he came to an apartment of an house that I lived in L. C. J. Cook you Mr. Gaven you see what this Evidence is she says that you were in Staffordshire the last week in July for you had an apartment in the house she lived in Call another Who stood up L. C. J. Where was mr Gaven in July last 2 Witness My Lord I saw him my self at the latter end of July for very many days for he was in a Room of the house that I lived in I am sure most of the last week L. C. J. Where was he the last fortnight 2 Witness I am confident I saw him all the last fortnight but I cannot be positive L. C. J. Call another Who stood up L. C. J. Where was mr Gaven in July 3. Witness My Lord I lived in the same Town with him and I do not remember that he was out all July but the last week he was in our house Lord Chief Just Well call another Who stood up Lord Chief Just Where was Mr. Gaven in July last 4 Witness He was in July last the last week in a part of our house Lord Chief Just So then he came home from London the 23 th or 24 th of July Well Mr. Gaven have you any more Witnesses to any other purpose for here are enough to this Gaven No my Lord. Lord Chief Just Mr. Whitebread have you any Witnesses to call Wh My Lord I have only this and I desire to be heard in this point to prove that Mr. Oats was mistaken in his Evidence that he gave at the last Trial against Mr. Ireland L C. J Look you I must break in upon you you have been told so often all of you have been told it and yet you are upon the former Trials again You are now upon your trial for your life if you could have disproved any thing that he said at a former trial you should have taken a legal way and convicted him of perjury but now to charge him with a printed Paper is not fair You must speak to what he says now Whitebread He says the same now But all that I say is this If he be not honest he can be witness in no case I suppose if any one can prove him not Probus Testis his Testimony is not to be received in any case Lord Chief Just But how will you prove that Come on I 'le teach you a little 〈…〉 â—ill come to contradict a Witness you ought to do it in a matter which is the present debate here for if you would convict him of any thing that he said in Irelands Trial we must try Irelands Cause over again But if you will say any thing against what he says now do Whitebread That which I would alledg is this If he be convicted of perjury in one case he is not to be believed in another Lord Chief Just You say right if he be convicted Whitebread He is not only then an incompetent Witness for he cannot be said to be probus testis but he is improbus Now this is that I can prove Mr. Just Pemberton Nay you must shew it by a Record Lord Chief Just You cannot have so little understanding you that have been and were to be so great a man among them had been Provincial and was to have been somewhat else I have told you already that to prove him to be a man that hath no faith in him he must be convicted You must have indicted him and convicted him of the thing wherein he did commit perjury and then he had been prepared to justifie himself But shall you come now and at this your Trial and prove what he said at Staleys Trial and Colemans Trial and Irelands Trial And must we examine what matters have
if it had been true but though it be now settled and none could think it would be again started they would make that an Objection but by chance we have a Witness still to give you satisfaction that Mr. Ireland was in London at that time that Mr. Oates did swear him to be We will begin with that Witness about Ireland And then we will call our Witnesses to prove that Mr. Oates was in England and did come over when he said he did Call Sarah Pain Who was sworn Sir Cr. Levins What time did you see Mr. Ireland in London Did you see him in August last S. Paine I saw him about seven or eight days before I came to my Lord Chamberlain and that was about a week before the King went to Windsor Lord Chief Just Where did you see him S. Paine At his own door in Russel-street Lord Chief Just Did you speak to him S. Paine No I knew him very well and saw him as I came by Sir Cr. Levins Had not you carried many Letters to him S. Paine Yes several Letters Sir Cr. Levins But where did you live before S. Paine I lived at Mr. Grove's Sir Cr. Levins Did not Mr. Ireland use to come there too Sarah Pain Yes he did often Lord Chief Just Was any one talking with Ireland then S. Paine No. Sir Cr. Levins How long did you look upon him Did you see him go in did you see his Face or his Back S. Paine I saw his face and made him a Curtesie Lord Chief Just This she said to Ireland's Face Mr. Just Dolben Your Evidence is that Mr. Ireland went out of Town the 5th of August and she says she saw him about that time which must be the 12th or 14th of August Gaven How does she prove it she does not say she spoke with him Mr. Just Dolben She swears it Sir Cr. Levins Now we must prove what time the King went to Windsor Lord Ch. Just Sir Tho. Doleman what time in August did the King go to Windsor last Summer Sir Tho. Doleman I believe I cannot charge my memory so well it was the 13th it was about the 12th or 13th Lord Ch. Just Was my Lord Chamberlain there then Sarah Paine My Lord Chamberlain went after the King Lord Chief Just And when do you say you saw Ireland Sarah Paine I saw him seven or eight days before I went to my Lord Chamberlain's which was before my Lord went to Windsor and that was a week after the King went thiâ—her Sir Cr. Levins Now I 'll tell you what she says she says she saw Ireland a week before she went to my Lord Chamberlains and she saw him go into Groves House where he did usually go for Letters she says she saw his face and made him a Curtesie and that this was a week before she went to my Lord Chamberlains and that was a week after the King went to Windsor Now the time that Mr. Oates pitches upon is between the 8 th and 12 th of August which by computation is the time she speaks of Gaven And our Witnesses go from the third of August to the fourteenth of September Sir Cr. Levins Call Sir Richard Barker William Walker Sara â—ves c. William Walker was fiâ—st sworn and bid to stand up Sir Cr. Levins Pray Sir do you know that Mr. Oates was in England the beginning of last Summer Pray tell your whole knowledge Mr Walker Yes my Lord I will I have known Mr. Titus Oates these seven years and had not seen him above five years but about two years ago I did meet him in Newgate-market and then again in the latter end of the month of March 1678 or the beginning of April I did see Mr. Oates in a disguise in a gray Searge Coat and I think a gray Hat but I did not understand it nor did I know him to be the man and I was very much troubled that I could not recollect my self who he was and I went to bed could not recollect who he was but before I rose in the morning I did draw him within the Scheme of my knowledg that it was Titus Oates to confirm my judgment in that I did go to a Gentlewoman whose name I did not know but I went thither because it was the same place that I had seen him at a year before to enquire what became of Mr. Oates and how he did And when I came to her in the morning early it was the next day after I had seen him in the Disguise I enquired of the Gentlewoman how Mr. Oates did and she clapped her hand upon her Counter being a Trades-woman Oh said she he is an undone man Why so said I said she he is turned to the Church of Rome and he absconds and hides himself I knew not where he is then in plain terms said I I saw him later than you for I saw him Yesterday between nine and ten of the clock it was at the upper end of St. Martins-lane near Leicester House Sir Cr. Levins What time was this Mr. Walker This was in April or March last was a Twelvemonth Lord Chief Just Did you never see him more than then Mr. Walker No I knew his Face so well as I looked back upon him and he looked back upon me but it was with some kind of terrour and he did seem to abscond and hide himself Lord Chief Just When was this Mr. Walker It was sometime from the latter end of March to the middle of April Lord Chief Just Why did you skip the beginning of April Mr. Walker I am not able to remember exactly the time for why I did never think to be called as a Witness about it Lord Chief Just Did you speak to him Mr. Walker No my Lord I did not Lord Chief Just How long before had you spoke to him Mr. Walker A year before but in his Canonical Habit and not before of five years Lord Chief Just North You will not sure catch him upon a day Lord Chief Just But I 'll tell you what it does it contradicts all that your Boys all your Witnesses say Though it does not go home exactly to the 24th of April yet if it be true and we have no reason to believe it otherwise it disproves all their Evidence for they charge him to have been at St. Omers all March April and May. Sir Cr. Levins Swear Sarah Ives Which was done Dr. Oates My Lord we bring Sarah Ives to prove that this same Gentleman went to her to enquire of her about me Lord Chief Just Pray Mrs. what did that Minister say to you and when concerning Mr. Oates Mrs. Ives Mr. Walker came to my Shop and asked me when I saw Mr. Oates said I I have not seen him since he went beyond sea Then said he I have seen him later than you for I was going to Leiâ—ester Fields and at the end of St. Martins-lane I saw him in a Disguise and he looked wishly back
Mr. Harcourt Mr. Dugdale I have received several Pacquets of Letters from several persons beyond Seas which were by his instruction communicated by Mr. Grove to Mr. Ewers which Letters did contain Treason in them for the introducing of Popery and killing and destroying the King Lord Chief Just How can you tell that Mr. Dugdale Mr. Harcourt hath given it under his own hand and I have intercepted the Letters and read them Lord Chief Justice You were acquainted with the hand Mr. Dugdal◠〈◊〉 my Lord. Lord Chief 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read the Letters then Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord I did Lord Chief Justice How many Letters have you intercepted have you interepted Twenty Mr. Dugdale Yes 100 my Lord Mr. Harcourt was the first that gave intelligence into the Countrey as I know of of the death of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey Sir Cr. Levins Tell when it was given and how Mr. Dugd. I have made it out already upon Oath and I have Witnesses to prove it Sir Cr. Levins Pray Sir tell it now Mr. Dugdale It was directed to Mr. Ewers and it was three days before he was found for it was received on the monday and he as it is proved was killed on the Saturday The words were these This very night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched And I very much rejected Mr. Ewers for this Action and then told him This will overthrow the Design or I will be hanged Lord Chief Just What day did you receive the Letter Mr. Dugdale I have proved I received it on a monday Lord Chief Just But pray what date did it bear Mr. Dugdale That Letter must come by Saturday Post for it said This night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched Lord Chief Just He did not name any body by whom Mr. Dugdale No but it said he was killed and we knew by whom Mr. Justice Pemberton And are you sure that was Mr. Harcourts letter Mr. Dugdale Yes for he did usually sign his letters with two letters W. H. which stood either for Harcourt or Harrison Mr. Belwood Did you acquaint any body with this or did you conceal it Mr. Dugdale I did go to an Alehouse that is hard by my Lords the next day which was Tuesday and there I asked if they did not hear some news of a Knights being kill'd at London And I have an Evidence here if your Lordship please I will call him who I desire may testifie the same thing Lord Chief Just Yes by all means Sir Cr. Levins Mr. Dugdale Pray will you give us some more account of the letter that came from Mr. Whitebread to Mr. Ewers Mr. Dugdale I remember one particularly but I cannot tell what number I have seen Sir Cr. Levins Did you see more than that one Mr. Dugdale I particularly remember that Lord Chief Justice What was that one particularly Harcourt My Lord I desire to ask him one Question When was the last time that you received any letters from me Mr. Dugdale The last I received from you to my best remembrance was that about Sir Edmondbury Godfrey and it was in October Harcourt I have not writ to that person this year and half Lord Chief Justice Let that man be called that proves this business of the death of Sir Edmondbury and the talk of it Mr. Dugdale mr Harcourt you know very well that when Mr. Ireland was last in the Country last year you were to send him the Answers that came by letters from Saint Omers and those were sent down to my Lord Astons and I saw them eight of those letters I am sure And I can prove it by one circumstance two of them came relating to Mr. Edward Astons death from Paris I intercepted them and talking of it that I could conjure and tell of the death of Mr. Edward Aston before any of his Friends knew of it And Mr. Ireland writ a chiding letter about it that he had not heard it sooner and you sent down word That you did write those letters and yeâ— you say you have not written to me of a Twelvemonth or more Harcourt This Gentleman does pretend to know my hand and 't is true I have writ several letters for Mr. Ewers and directed to him but as to this time he speaks of I have left off writing for divers years He pretends to know me and yet this Gentleman before the Committee of Commons in Parliament which was yesterday was 5 weeks as well as he knew my hand came and said I was a Gentleman he did not know He came also to entrap me at the Gatehouse before those Gentlemen of the Committee of the House of Commons but because he said he knew my hand so very well and testifie those expressions in the letter I must say this I never did write any such letter nor did I ever in my life seem to approve of any mans death or murder But the thing is this he pretends to know my hand and to prove it the Gentlemen desired me to write my own hand and my name and he in the mean time did withdraw and three of them did write their names afterwards they called him in again and asked him which was Harcourts hand he was not able to say which it was Lord Chief Just You write more hands as well as have more names and can counterfeit your hands as well as change your names Mr. Justice Pemberton You speak before your time and your bare word goes for nothing Lord Chief Justice But Mr. Dugdale where is your Witness Harcourt I don't know any thing of this Lord Chief Justice But if he calls up a Witness of whom you can have no suspicion that can testifie that at this time Mr. Dugdale spoke about the death of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey What will you say to that Harcourt I believe there is no such thing at all â—ir Cr. Levins My Lord here is Mr Chetwin pray swear him Which was done L. C. J. Mr. Chetwin Do you remember that Mr. Dugdale came to you any time last â—ummer and what time and what discourse had you Mr. Chetwin My Lord if your Lordship please I was most part of the Summer in the Country I came into Staffordshire about the 29th of August My Lord there is a Gentleman one Mr. Sanbidge that is a Kinsman of my Lord Astons that was very well acquainted with the Family where I was which was half a mile off my Lords and used to come and play with me at Tables My Lord at that very time in October he came to me and there says he Do you hear nothing of a Justice of Peace in Westminster where you live that is killed or to that effect No said I and I had Letters yesterday and heard nothing of if Saith he I was this morning at Elds and there a Girl of the House told me Mr. Dugdale had been there and reported that there was a Justice of Peace of Westminster was killed but who he should be I never heard named and on Saturday
you were there at the seeing of the Play Dr. Oates my Lord as to that twentieth of June I was there and there was an Action at that time for I was then returned thither from London Parry I deny all that for he never stirr'd out of the Colledge L. C. J. Youngman in what Quality were you there Parry I was a Student there a Poet. L. C. J. How can you say he did not stir thence all the while Parry I know by a particular thing I din'd and supp'd with him there but when he was in the infirmary but the particular passage was this He did there fall out with a Gentleman that was in the Infirmary too L. C. J. When was that Parry It wâ—s â—t thâ— time that he says he came away L. C. J. When wâ—â—â— he 〈◊〉 Parry Tâ—e 25â—h of April Old Style and staid a matter of three or four days Dr. Oates Will you be pleased to take notice of this he says that Hilsley left me at St. Omers when he cam◠〈◊〉 and that the next day he dined with me and that I went into thâ— Iâ—fiâ—niâ—â— â—hâ—â— he says was the 25th of April Old Style Now we will run to a gâ—â— ad huminâ—m 〈◊〉 this â—â—re the 25th of April Old Style how did Mr. Williams meâ—t with Mr. Hilsly iâ— Caliâ— â—â—d râ—store him his money when the 24th old stile Mr. Williams was at the coâ—sul◠〈◊〉 London L C. J. When was it that you say Mr. Hilsley was at St. Omers Fenwick Answer my Lords Question Parry He went away the 24th of April as I Remember Lord Chief Just What Old stile Parry Yes old stile acccording to the reckoning there D. Oates But my Lord upon the Oath that I have taken if he mean new stile all that this Gentleman hath said about this is false except that I was there the 20th of June Lord Chief Just Was it new stile or old stile that you say Mr. Hilsly went away Mr. Recorder He does not know new stile from old stile Parry He went the 24th that is the old stile beyond Sea Whitebread I do desire he may answer whether he does know that Mr. Oates was ever out of the house from the time he came in December till June but one night Parry No he never was out but one night at Watton Lord Chief Justice From what time to what time Parry It was but two days and one night Lord Chief Just What time was it that he was there first Parry He came thither in December Lord Chief Justice And he did stay there all the while Parry He did not stir from the Colledge till the end of June and never went out but a day or two as I know of L. C. J. Not as you know of but might not he go and you not know of it Parry I am sure of it L. C. J How can you tell Parry Not a Scholar goes from thence to England but the whole Colledge rings of it Gaven And then my Lord when they go out they go in Secular Cloaths that none but must know when any person leaves the Colledge Dr. Oates My Lord in such cases though t is true in a general sense yet it is but a general Rule and every general Rule admits of its exceptions and my case was a particular Exception I put on the habit of the House as soon as I did return from London and did not appear as if I had gone out of the House nor did I know that it was known that I had been out for I did never appear in a secular habit Whitebread What his Cloaths were does not change the place he sate in he being ancienter than the Boys had a priviledge to sit in a particular place which must be known to all the House at Dinner and Supper He was visible every day there L. C. J. I do believe it and therefore he says not only that he was reported to be there but that he saw him there almost every day Then another Witness for the Prisoner stood up L. C. J. What say you young Lad Doddington I say my Lord L. C. J. What is your name Doddington Doddington Dr Oates Pray my Lord ask him if he went by that Name at St. Omers Mr. J. Pemberton What was your Name at St. Omers Doddington My name was Hollis there L. C J. How old are you Doddington Eighteen years and an half L. C. J. What can you say where was mâ— Oates Doddington He never went out of the Colledge but one night to Watton till the end of June L. C. J. When came he into the Colledge Doddington A fortnight before Christmas I did not mind the day he says himseâ—â— it was the 10th of December Lord Chief Just Was he there till June Doddington Yes he never went out till June but one night Lord Chief Just Where was that At Watton Doddington Yes my Lord. Lord Chief Just How do you know that Doddington I only know that by what all the house said Lord Chief Just Did you see him every day except that day Doddington I cannot say I saw him every day because he was in the Infirmary once and he was there that very day after Mr. Hilsly went away Lord Chief Just What day was it that Mr. Hilsly went away Doddington The 24th of April new stile and that day he fell sick and went into the Infirmary the next Lord Chief Just What day of the week was that Doddington It was of a Sunday Lord Chief Just And when did you see Mr. Oates Doddington On monday or Tuesday I am not certain Lord Chief Just How often did you see him from the 24th of April to June Did you see him every other day Doddington Yes that I am sure of for every other day I am not certain every day Lord Chief Just Are you positive Jury We desire to know what time of the year he was in the Infirmary Doddington I discoursed with him in the Infirmary two or three days after Mr. Hilsly went away Lord Chief Just But what time of the year was it Doddington He was there first in Winter and then afterwards he was in at this time which was in April Lord Chief Just Have you any more to say Doddington I can say more that I saw Mr. Oates the second of May with one Blood or Burnaby and I am sure I saw him in his company Lord Chief Just Where did you see him Doddington I saw him walking in the Garden with Mr. Burnaby Mr. Just Pemberton When did you come into England Doddington I came over the 24th of April Lord Chief Just How long have you been in England Doddington About two months Mr. Just Pemberton Why did you come over were you sent for over upon this ocâ—asion Doddington No I was not Mr. Just Pemberton Why did you come over Doddington I came over partly upon the Kings Proclamation Lord Chief Just What Proclamation was that L. C. Just North That those that were in
the Seminaries should come over again Doddington And partly because I had not my health Fenwick Mr. Gifford what do you know about Mr. Oates's coming from St. Omers L. C. J. When came you from St. Omers Gifford I came over about a month ago Lord Chief Just Upon what occasion Gifford To Justifie that Mr. Oats was there all the while that he says he was here L. C. J. You speak like an honest man there is no hurt in that Fenwick we did send for him over L. C. J. When did you see Mr. Oates there Gifford I saw him the first of May was twelve-month with us and the 21. of April L. C. J. And how long after that Gifford I was in his Company for a whole week after I am sure L. C. J. You say the first of May he was there how can you tell Gifford The first of May there came one Mr. Burnaby to the Colledg and he fell into acquaintance with him and I saw him with him He was with us an whole week at least every day after dinner We have an hour always after dinner to recreate in and this Gentleman was there with us and Mr. Burnaby for Mr. Oates seeing us in the Garden at first put himself into our company and kept with us L. C. J. Was he not in the Infirmary Gifford Not at that time my Lord. L. C. J. When was he in the Infirmary Gifford The day after Hilsly went away L. C. J. Do you remember that Gifford Yes I do L.C. Just North. How long did he stay in the Infirmary Parry About three days Lord Chief Just And for how long together did you see him after Mr. Hilsly's departure Gifford I can swear that I saw him at least till June if I can believe my own eyes Lord Chief Just Your Religion does not allow you to believe your own eyes Gifford I can in my conscience say I believe I did see him every day or every other day Lord Chief Just Which do you say Did you see him every other day or every day Gifford If I say I saw him every other day that is sufficient Lord Chief Just Do you know that he went out of the Colledge at any time Gifford Yes he went for one night Lord Chief Just Whither Gifford To a place called Watton L. C. Just What did he go thither for Gifford For his Relaxation Lord Chief Just How came you to take such particular notice of him that he was there Gifford It is impossible but we should see him and take notice of him for we dine all together in one Room and we could not but take notice of him for he was at a distinct Table by himself Lord Chief Just How many are there that dine in one Room Gifford One hundred and fifty L. C. J. How could you know him when there were so many Gifford He was at a distinct Table by himself between the Boys and the Religious Then stood up another one Palmer L. C. J. Well what do you ask him Fenwick The same Question as the rest L. C. J. When came you from St Omers Palmer I came two or three months ago Lord Chief Justice Why did you come over Palmer I had no mind to stay any Longer L. C. J. Where does your Father live Palmer By Windsor L. C. J. When did you see Master Oates Palmer I saw him the first day of May new stile and I know it for a particular reason there were strangers dined at the Colledge that day whereupon Mr. Oates and several other Boys played at Nine pins in the Afternoon I saw them L. C. J. Why you do not count aâ—l Boys there do you Palmer All but those that are the Religious L. C. J. Why you did not count Mr. Oates a Boy did you Palmer He was none of the Religious He sate indeed at a Table by himself but he went to School with the Boys and we called all the Scholars Boys Lord Chief Just How often did you see him Palmer I 'le tell your Lordship I saw him the first of May for that reason the second of May I saw him with Master Burnaby a man that he had never seen in all his life before and we wondred that he had so much impudence to insinuate himself into his company Lord Chief Just What is he Palmer He is a Gentleman that is now in Flanders Lord Chief Just How do you know that Master Oates had no acquaintance with him before Palmer Because I know he was in England and came over while Master Oates was actually at St. Omers Lord Chief Just But he might be of his Acquaintance in England Palmer I heard Master Burnaby say he never saw Master Oates in all his life before The second of May I saw him at the Action the fifth of May Master Killingbeck went away and I saw Master Oates actually there then and one Master Poole went away and I remember Oates was there for a particular reason he was a kind of a weak man something soft not over-wise and we were asking him why he would go away by himself and talking of it afterwards sayes Master Oates I will not say positively those were the words but that was the sence He does not go alone for there goes Esquire Poole and Esquire Fool together The eleventh day we had an Action a Play also whereupon there was a particular place for the Musicians to play in where no one else was to sit Master Oates would sit there and thereupon there was one Master Watson quarrell'd with him and they had like to have fought Lord Chief Just This was the 11th of May Palmer Yes my Lord new stile and the other was the 5th L. C. J. But you saw him betwixt that time Palmer Yes my Lord I did Lord Chief Just And so for how long Palmer I saw him at four a clock in a morning reading Father Worsleys Controversies and so for several days together Fenwick Did he go away before June Palmer No he did never stir till June Sir Cr. Levins Did not you go sometime by the name of Sanders or Hâ—ll Palmer No only by the name of Thomas Palmer Sir Cr. Levins Heark you Sir who maintained you at St Omers Do not you know one Mr. Caryl Palmer No my Faâ—her maintained me Lord Chief Just Who is your Father Palmer Sir Philip Palmer L. C. J. What Country Gentleman is he Palmer Buckinghamshire Mr. Just Pemberton He is Cup bearer to the King Then stood up one Master Cox L. C. J. How long have you been from St. Omers Cox Two months L. C. J. What Country man are you Cox I was born at Brussels to serve you L. C. J. Do you know Master Oates Cox Yes I did very well Lord Chief Just Where Cox At Saint Omers Lord Chief Just When Cox I left St. Omers seven months ago and I came away in the month of November after Master Oates My Lord I can prove that he was there in
but he could not be so for he entred himself into the Sodality the 25 th of March and not long after his admission he was put to read every Sunday morning at 6 a Clock And after that he began once to read he never was absent from that time till the time he went away Lord Ch. Just Why did he read when he was sick Billing He was not sick upon the Sunday Lord Ch. Just You say he was sick in April Billing Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Just But was he not sick of a Sunday in April Billing He was only a little indisposed and frequented the infirmary in the day time for a matter of 3 or 4 dayes Lord Ch. Just Did he read at the time he was sick in the infirmary Billing He was not sick an whole week Lord Ch Just Did it reach to a Sunday Billing No my Lord that I remember Lord Ch. J. How long did he continue there Billing Til towards the latter end of June Lord Ch. Just Did you see him once in 2 or 3 days Billing Yes my Lord I did constantly And upon the second of May â—â—veâ— particularly remember looking out into the Garden I saw Mr. Blunt walking in the Garden and Mr. Oates with him And observing him to be very intimately familiar with him I aâ—ked some that were with me Does this Sampson for he went by that name in the Colledge says I does Sampson know Dick Blunt no said they and we wondered at his confidence having no greater acquaintance I saw him that day walking in the Garden with that Blunt L. C. J. That was the second of May Billing Yes my Lord. L. C. J And he was constantly in this Gentlemans company that day Billing Yes and moreover the same day this Sampson was walking with one John Rushton in the Garden and seeing me walk alone Thomas says he have you never a companion No Sampson said I well said he prithe come to us So I was with him walking a little while and then this Blunt and one Henry Howard were playing one with another throwing stones at one anothers Shins At which he was displeased and said â—f they would not be quiet he would go tell the Rector Howard was hasty and spoke angerly to him and said if he would not be quiet he would beat him But Mr. Oates persisting and daring of him says hâ— what do you dare me and come up to him and throws up Mr. Oates his heels With that mr Oates lookt very freâ—fully upon him and withdrew himself into the Infirmary as we thought to speak to the Rector And by these particulars and such as these I remember to have seen him every day one day with another or every other day at St. Omers till he went away which was in June Then stood up another one Townely L C. J. Come mr Townely do you know mr Oates Tow. Yes my Lord L. C. J. When came you from St Omers Townely I came a week before Easter Lord Ch. Just When saw you this same Mr. Oates at St. Omers Townley I saw him in June Lord Ch. Just When else Townley In May. Lord Ch. Just When else Townley In April Lord Ch. Just Was he there in all April all May and all June Townley No not all June He went away as I take it about the 10 th of June Lord Ch. Just Pray how often did you see him Did you see him every day Townley I conversed with him every day He was partly a Scholar and partly a Father and sat at a Table by himself He went to School as a Scholar 'T is true indeed he did not learn as the rest of the Boys did but he went to School at the Boys did and was at a Table from the Fathers as the Boys were but apart and alone Lord Ch. Just But how often did you see him was it every other day Townley Yes I believe I did Lord Ch. Just What for all April and all May Townley Yes Lord. Ch. Just How came you to take such particular notice of it that you can say you saw him every other day Townâ—ley If I constantly dine with one or if he be at a single Table alone he cannot be absent but I must take notice of it and he was neither as a Father nor as a Scholar but betwixt both and therefore the more to be taken notice of Lord Ch Just This then you say He siting by himself and being distinct from all â—he others you might more easily observe his absence than any others This is that you say Townley Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Just You say well Call another Then stood up one Fall Lord Ch. Just When came you from St. Omers Fall about Two months agoe Lord Ch. Just When did you see Mr. Oates Fall I saw him when I was in my Syntax and now I am in Poetry L. C. J. What moneth did you see him in Fall When he came first as I rember it was at Christmas L. C. J. Christmas last Fall No it was Christmas was twelth month Christmas 1677. L. C. J. How long did you see him there Fall I saw him there from that time till June only when he was at Watton L. C. J Was he never sick Fall I saw him in the Infirmary my self L. C. J. How can you tell when a man is sick Fall I do not pretend to do that but he was in the Infirmary as a sick man L. C. J. How came you to take particular notice of it Fall I took no particular notice but I have recollected my memory L. C. J. Upon what occasion Fall Upon this occasion L. C. J. How often did you see him Fall I saw him every day L. C. J. How long have you been in the Convent Fall My Lord I have been there two years and an half Then stood up John Hall L. C. J When came you from St. Omers Hall in July my Lord. L. C. J How long have you been there Hall seven years and upwards L. C. J. How long is it since you came from thence Hall In July in the year 1678. L C. J. And did you see Mâ— Oates there then Hall No my Lord L. C.J When did you see him there then Hall I saw him there in April May June L. C.J. What all June Hall No my Lord. L. C. J. How long in June Hall He went away about the Twenty third of June L. C J. How came you to take such particular notice Mr. Oates was there all this while Hall I was a servant there L. C. J. In what way Hall A Resectorian a Butler L. C. J Did you keep Books of what meat and drink they had Hall No I laid their Table drew their Beer and laid the Bread L. C. J. And did you serve Mr. Oates with bread and Beer every day Hall Yes my Lord most Dayes L. C. J. Did you serve the Infirmary Hall No my Lord. L. C. J. But you say you served him every day Hall Yes
afterwards to it if you were not there then Lord Chief Just You say you were then in Staffordshire and might not you set your hand afterwards when you came to Town I will tell you Mr. Gaven in April they met and had such a Resolution you were then in Staffordshire might not you come to Town in July following and set your hand to what was agreed in April before And you cannot contradict him but by shewing that all June and July you were not here For if you prove your self never so much to have been at Wolverhampton in April that will not serve the turn You seem to make a very great defence of this All that Mr. Oates says is that the 24 th of April he was present where there was a Consult had about the death of the King and divers persons set their hands to the Resolve Mr. Gaven afterwards was in Town and then says he I saw his hand set to the Consult I will not charge my memory to say he was present but I will tell you why I believe it was his Hand because I saw him draw a Bill of Exchange and that was just like the same Hand Gaven Aye but my Lord I was not here in April Lord Chief Just But this proves in effect that you set your hand to the thing afterwards And now if you should prove your self never so plainly not to have been there in April you do not come to the thing it is still a non liquet whether you were here in July or no. And Mr. Oates does not positively charge you as to April Well call your Witnesses and prove what you will Catherine Winford was called and appeared Gaven I desire you would be pleased to ask her where I was the 23 th of July Winford My Lord I am very sure he was a Sojourner at our House the most part of the Summer in June and July both In July the 23 th he went away from my House and took another Lodging more convenient for that which he had to do Lord Chief Just Where in what Town was this Winford At Wolverhampton in Staffordshire Lord Ch. Just was he never away from you all that time Winford No and then he went to another Lodging in the Town Lord Ch. Just Do you say that he sojourned with you all June July till the 23 th Winford He sojourned with me longer but I only name those months because they are onely in question L. C. J. Where did he go when he went from you Winford He took another lodging in the Town L. C. J. And did you see him then Winford I saw him then every day or every other day L. C. J. Are you a Roman Catholick Winford Yes my Lord I am so L. C. J. Call another Gaven Call Mary Poole Who stood up L. C. J. Do you know Mr. Gaven Poole Yes my Lord. L. C J. How long have you know him Poole This six or seven years L. C. J. Pray do you know where he was this time Twelvemonth Poole He was at Mrs. Winfords House at Wolverhampton L. C. J How do you know Poole I was a Servant there in the House Lord Ch. J. And where was he in April Poole He was at my Mistresses House L. C. J. And where was he in May Poole my Lord I believe he was there L. C. J. And why do you believe he was there Poole Because I do not remember his going forth till the latter end of July and he was there in June too L. C J. You answer readily as to June and July why did you stick at the month of May more than the other Months for you know when I asked you where he was in April then you said he was at home why do you doubt whether he was there in May or no pray tell us why it is not as certain to you that he was not there in May as that he was there in June why do you doubt more of it Poole I do not doubt but that he was there Lord C. J. But why did you not answer then as readily to the one as to the other Poole My Lord any one may mistake L. C. J. This you were not prepared for and it was a question you did not come ready to answer are you a Roman-Catholick Poole Yes my Lord. Here the people laugh'd L. C. J Look you you must know there is no other use to be made of it but onely to shew that Protestants are so averse to Popery in England that they will not endure a Roman-Catholick in England But they are good Evidence and competent Witnesses I must tell you that and no man must deny it for though you deny Heaven to us yet we will not deny Heaven to you nor Witnesses though you say Heriticks will be damn'd yet we hope they will never while they do not follow your practises At which the people gave a great shout L. C. J. You must pardon the peoples shouting for you have turned their hearts so that there is no living for a Papist in England I will maintain it And then the people shouted again You shall have all the Iustice that can be and all the favour the Law will allow Gaven If there be but a place for us in Heaven I am contented My Lord I desire you will be pleased to ask this Mrs. Kâ—â—th Winford whether she does not remember that I came from my Lord Aston's the Monday before L. C. J. Mrs. Winford what say you do you remember any passages about the time he left your house Winford My Lord I did not know directly and positively what I should come to answer and therefore I cannot recollect my self L. C. J. Do you know that he went to any Gentlemans house some time before he left your house Winford Yes my Lord he went often abroad L. C. J. To whose Winford To my Lord Astons L. C. J. How long before Winford I cannot tell L. C. J. How long did he stay at my Lord's did he ever stay five or six days Winford I cannot tell L. C. J. My meaning is this in plain English to ask you plainly and you ought in Conscience to speak the truth as much as if you were upon your Oath for you are in the presence of God who will judge you as severely for a falshood in this Case as in the other I would ask you whether he could not possibly be absent and make a step to London and you be never the wiser Windford My Lord I am as confident as I can be of any thing in the world of the contrary L. C. J. Might not he be in London the latter end of June or July and you not know it when he pretended to go to my Lord Aston's Winford I do not know but I am very confident he did not L C. J. But was he absent long enough to have done it can you charge your memory with that Winford It was possible it might be so
must have right though there be never so much time lost and patience spent Say they We must prove and contradict men by such matters as we can people may swear downright things and 't is impossible to contradict them but we will call Witnesses to prove those particulars that can be proved â—ay where Mr. Ireland was in August Dr Oates He took his leave of us in Town in August and that was between the eighth and twelfth at Harcourts Chamber Lord Chief Just What do you infer from Irelands being there then Dr. Oates I 'le tell you what I design in it your Lordship may perceive that I did methodize my Evidence according to the time for I said this was our business in April this in July and now we come to the business of August said I we took our leaves of Mr. Ireland between the eighth and twelfth I said in July Mr. Fenwick was out of Town but then if your Lordship remembers I said he was in Town and took his leave of Mr. Ireland between the eighth and the twelfth of August Lord Chief Just Was Mr Ireland in Fenwicks company at that time in August Dr. Oates Yes my Lord he was when he took his leave Lord Chief Just Did they talk then of this business Dr. Oates They took their leaves of one another but as to what particular things of the Plot they spoke about I don't remember Lord Chief Just Look you now mind what he says Ireland and Fenwick were together in August between the eighth and the twelfth but being asked Whether they were met on purpose to talk of the Plot he says he does not remember the particulars Here the Lady Southcott her Son and her Daughter were called Lord Chief Just Did you say that Fenwick there at the Bar had converse with Ireland in August for the carrying on of the Plot Dr. Oates Yes my Lord. L. C. J. My rule is this in doubtful cases when men are upon their lives I had rather hear what is impertinent than not let them make a full defence Lord Chief Just North I had rather hear things at a venture than forbid things at a venture Lady Southcott stood up Lord Chief Just How long were you in Mr. Irelands Company Lady Southcott From the fifth of August to the sixteenth Lord Chief Just What every day Lady Southcott Yes every day Dr. Oates My Lord here is Sarah Pain who before hath testified what she hath known in this matter If your Lordship please I desire she may be call'd in readiness to speak to it Lord Chief Just Are you sure it was the fifth Lady Southcott Yes as sure as I can be of any thing Mr. Recorder Dr. Oates you had best keep your Evidence intire till the last Then Sir John Southcott was called and appeared Lord Ch. Just Did you know mr Ireland Sir John Southcott Yes I did know him by face Lord Ch. Just Where did you see him Sir John Southcott I saw him the fifth of August at St. Albans Lord Ch Just And did he travel along with you Sir Jo. Southcot Yes he did travel along with us the sixth seventh eighth and ninth Lord Ch. Just How many days did he travel along with you Sir John Southcott He trave'ld along with us four days together I am sure L. C. J. What from the 5th to the 9th Sir Iohn Southcott Yes Sir L. C. J. Is this all that you can say Sir Iohn Southcott Yes my Lord. L. C. J. But we would know where he was afterwards did you see him after the 9th Sir Iohn Southcott My Lord I saw him at St Albans and we went from thence to Northampton and from thence to Coventry and from thence to my Lord Astons that is four days and I saw him Thursday I saw him Friday Saturday and Munday following Tuesday I had occasion to go further into the Country and he went along with us so I saw him Tuesday Wednesday Thursday and Friday afterwards L. C. J. Why then you saw him at least twelve days Sir Iohn Southcott Yes L. C. J. Have you any more Then Mr. Edward Southcott stood up L. C. J. Were you here when Ireland was tryed Sir Iohn Southcott No. L. C. J. Did you see Mr. Ireland in August last Mr. Southcott The third of August he came down to my Lord Astons at Stanmore they said so but I cannot swear he came that night but I saw him very early the next morning the 5th we went to St. Alban we kept on till we came to Tixall and I was in his company from the 4th to the 16th L. C. J. Why you hear what he says he was in company with him every day from the 4th to the 16th Gaven Call Mrs. Harewell and her Daughter Mrs. Gifford and Mrs. Pendrell Then Mrs. Harewell stood up L. C. J. Did you see Mr. Ireland in August last Harewell I saw Ireland in August last the 17th day He came then to my House at Wolverhampton and there he continued every day and lay in my house every night till the 26th day Then young Mrs. Harewell stood up Harewell Mr. Ireland came to our house in Staffordshire the 17th of August and stay'd there till the 26th I saw him every day unless it was Friday the day before Bartholomew-day when he went to Litchfield and returned again Gaven My Lord there is a prisoner now in Newgate that can testifie the same L. C. J. North. Would you ask your fellow if you be a Thief he is in for the same offence Gaven My Lord I desire to know if a man be not convicted of the same offence whether he be not a good Witness L C J North. If he stand charged with the same Plot his Evidence is of little weight Then Elizabeth Keiling stood up L C J Did you see Mr. Ireland in August Keiling Yes my Lord I did L C J Where did you see him Keiling I saw him at Wolverhampton there he was from Saturday the 17th to Munday and then I went to see my Mother and came back again on Thursday and found him there and there he was till the 26th Gaven Call Mr. Pendrell and his Wife Then Pendrell stood up L C J. When did you see Mr. Ireland Pendrell I saw him the second and third of September L. C J. Where did you see him Pendrell At Boscobel L. C. J. And what did you see him in August Pendrell No my Lord. L. C. J. How do you know you saw him then Pendrell My Wife being paid for his diet set down the day L. C. J. What he came to sojourn with you did he Pendrell They were with me for their Meals and so my Wife set it down L. C. J. Why do you set down the day of the month when any one comes to you Pendrell Yes my Lord when we are paid for their Diet we do L. C. J. What do you keep a publick House Pendrell I keep the Royal Oak L C J Methinks you
upon me and I upon him and said he I am certain it was the man Lord Chief Just What time was this Mrs. Ives It was April was a Twelve-month Lord Chief Just What time in April do you think Mrs. Ives I cannot say the day L. C. J. But what time of the month was it Mrs. Ives I don't justly know I think it was the middle of April or thereabouts Lord Ch. Just Call another witness Sir Chr. Levins Call Mrs. Mayo who was sworn Sir Chr. Levins Well what say you when did you see Dr. Oates in England Mayo I never saw his Face till a week before whitesontide or a little after there was a young man a Servant of Sir Richard Barker's that knew him a long time before he came to me and said Yonder is Mr. Oates hath changed his coat from a black to a white what is he said I he was a Minister but he is either turned Quacker or Catholick but said I he is not turned Quaker for he wears a Perriwig and he fell a laughing and jeering at him said I why do you deride this Gentleman when he is a friend of Sir Richard Barker's Lord Ch. Just Where was mr Oates then Mayo He was in the Court-yard and I was in the Kitchen Lord Ch. Just When was this Mayo The week before Whitsontide L. C. J. In what month Mayo It was in May. Lord Ch. Just Did you know him before then Mayo No I did not but I had heard much of him in the Family L. C. J How soon did you see him again after that Mayo About a Week after he came and brought another with him and walked into the Garden and seemed to be discontented that they did not shew such a countenance to him as they used to do in the House for the Gentlewomen had heard he was turned Jesuite and therefore were very shye that is Sir Richard's Kinswomen my Ladies Sisters Daughters Lord Ch. Just Do you know Dr. Oates now Mayo Very well Sir Afterward he came again and walked into the Garden and the young man I spoke of before that is now dead came again tooke notice of him of the strange Garbe he was in he was in a Room that looked into the Garden I saw him walking there said he Yonder is Oates again and hath brought another with him he looked out of the window and said he Perithee look here does not he looke like a Jesuite and he that was with him lookt back if it had not been for that the young man's importunity I had never taken notice of mr Oates After when I heard he was come over and gave in his Testimony about the Plot I would needs go see him but he spoke very slightingly to me and seemed to be offended with the Family because they did scorn him Said I They had no reason to countenance you because we all understood you were turned Catholick They did said he look very shye upon me Why said I you must not be offended for you know all the Family are no friends to Jesuites and I hope never will be so but I hope mr Oates you will not forget eaten Bread because he used to be made very much of at Sir Richard Barker's Sir Chr. Levins Is that the man that you saw there Mayo This is the man if you will put me to my Oath again I will swear it Sir Chr. Levins When was this Mayo It was the week before Whitesontide it was in May for Whitsontide fell in May. Sir Chr. Levins Then call Philip Page Who was sworn Sir Chr. Levins Do you know Dr. Oates Page Yes Sir Sir Chr Levins How long have you known him Page I have known him four or five years L. C. J. Pray did you see him in the year 1678 last year Page Yes I did L. C. J. At what time Page About the beginning of May. L. C. J. Where Page at Sir Richard Barker's Lord Ch. Just Were you acquainted with him before Page I had spoke with him before Lord Ch. Just How do you know it was he did you speak with him then Page Yes I did Lord Ch. Just What Habit was he in Page He had a light-coloured Campaign Coat I ask'd him where he had been so long a time that we had not seen him but he turned away from me and gave me no account but after he had been in the house made back again and away he went after he enquired for Sir Richard Lord Ch. Just How do you know it was in May why might it not be in April Page It was in the beginning of May to the best of my knowledge L. C. J. By what material Circumstances do you remember it was in the beginning of May Is there any thing that puts it into your mind more particularly Page My master had a patient at that time that was sick of a Feaver L. C. J. Where at Sir Richard Barker's House Page At Islington it was Jury We desire to know what the Patients name was for some of us know Islington very well Page I Have forgot the name Sir Rich. Barker It was Aldram Milver's daughter L C. J. It was about that time in May that you saw him Page I did upon my Oath and I spoke with him and took much notice of him he had an old black Hat on that flapp'd and a pair of Spanish Leather shoos Sir Chr. Levins Call Sir Richard Barker Who was sworn L. C J. Do you know Dr. Oates Sir Richard Barker Yes my Lord I have known his Father and him ever since he hath been a Child I saw him the last Summer L. C. J. About what time Sir Richard Barker At that time that they have given in Evidence I have only this to say I was abroade as my business leads me often abroade into the Country but they told me mr Oates came to my house in a Disguise that they believed he was turned either Quaker or Papist L. C. J. When was this Sir Richard Barker It was my Lord to the best of my remembrance after Whitsontide that they told me but they told me a Story of him how that he was in two several Disguises the one was a short Hair and then they thought he was turned Quaker an other time he had a Long Perriwig and then they thought he was turned Papist and the first that told me was this Fellow here that is a Coachman of mine who was mending some thing of his Coach It happened my Lord upon the visiting of a Gentleman that I was very ill in which time mr Oates was gone and afterwards when I was recovered again he came to my house to enquire concerning Dr. Tongue L. C. J. When did you see him first Sir Richard Barker It was my Lord to the best of my remembrance the latter end of June or beginning of July upon my Recovery Lord C. J. By the Oath that you have taken I would ask you one Question Did not you see
this and carry this away with you as to the business of Ireland between the eighth and twelfth of August how many do swear that he was in Staffordshire I desire you but to compare that one Woman that only saw him and made a Curtesie to him as she says with those sixteen Witnesses that conversed with him daily Then as for the second Testimony of the St. Omers Witnesses which you see is thwarted by some that do swear in the Kings name to the contrary Still I desire you to compare number with number the others though they do not swear are ready to swear and there are only 3 or 4 against 16 of them and there is an evident contradiction in what they say and that proved out of his own mouth for he says he came over the twentieth of April with Mr. Hilsley and stay'd only six days they say he was here in May and I desire these may be compared for how could it be that he should be here in May if he staid but six days And then to make your Verdict and take their Credit away I would desire you to consider those Witnesses that I have brought for my self not being here but in Wolverhampton for being in Stafford-shire as long as till the last week of July it must fall within the time of his Testimony I have brought Witnesses to prove upon Oath that from the twenty second upward they saw me in Wolverhampton and they do remember the particular instance that I was then at my spiritual exercise and this is that I have to say as to Mr. Oates As for Mr. Dugdale I would desire you to reflect upon the whole story of his coming to discover this Plot and his being an Informer about it The truth is I confess I have known him five or six years whilst he lived at my Lord Astons and I have divers times discoursed with him there in Mr. Ewers Chamber but as I hope to be saved never any thing of Treason in all my life Now 't is well known and there are those that can testifie it that in truth Dugdale run away from my Lord Astons after he had lost three hundred pound of my Lords mony Lord Chief Just If you can say any thing against Mr. Dugdale by Witnesses that you can prove it then you say well but if you will tell a story out of one Lords mouth and another Lords mouth that is never to be indured you shall never take away a mans Testimony by hearsay you must prove it Gaven 'T is well known if I prove Dugdale no credible Witness I play my own game You know I have been a Prisoner 20 weeks and could not seek out Witnesses I asked it as soon as I knew of my Tryal but it was denied me to send for Witness to prove that Dugdale was in Goal for Debt If I had the Recorders Warrant or the Authority of this Bench I could send for them L. C. J. You must not fall upon Persons without Evidence if you have Witnesses to prove any thing whom the Jury will believe call them Gav I do assure your Lordship as I hope to see the face of God I am innocent of what is charged upon me And God bless the King and this Honourable Court. Lord Chief Just Though you do a hundred times bless the King and Court and all you must prove things if you will be believed What say you Master Whitebread Whitebread My Lord I have but one thing to say and 't is but a word your Lordship was pleased to make an Observation and a good one it was a Letter which Mr. Dugdale says was written by me to Mr. Ewers which he says he intercepted he was in the mean time a trusty correspondent for his Friend In that Letter he swears there was expresly contained positive words of entertaining persons to kill the King that only such as were hardy desperate and stout but as your Lordship well observed that it was an improbable thing that a man who had his Wits about him should write such plain expressions about such a matter and upon that improbability I leave it to the Jury Mr. Just Pemberton Have you any thing to say Mr. Fenwick Fenwick I desire my Lord your Lordship and the Jury to consider and observe the nature both of our Witnesses and of them that are brought against us The one speak for the whole time that they saw him every day or every other day they daily conversed with him and eat and drank with him in the same house the others they say only they saw him one particular day another another and one of them sayes he saw him but in a disguise Now my Lord whether it be likely that so many innocent Children brought up in a good virtuous life should come here to forswear themselves to contradict people that we know not what they are and then besides we know that these people are of a poor mean beggarly condition that intend to mend that condition by such a pretence of discovery and hope thereby to advance themselves It is probable such people might be drawn in Then also we shall prove that Sir John Warner did not come over with him nor Mr. Williams nor Sir Thomas Preston Then all his Witness as to them is false and he does not say he went back with these people and this for the Witnesses Now suppose the Witnesses were all equal what does he prove against us Three Or what reason doth he give of his Evidence He says he saw such and such Letters from Mr. Whitebread Now is it possible that a man that had no credit at all with us that we should be such fools to trust him with such Letters as those then your Lordships must hang us twice once for Fools and then for Knaves Or is it possible that we should be such egregious Fools that we should trust a man that was never esteemed of was expelled the Colledge And for all his talk of Commissions and Letters there is not one of those found let him shew any one Commission any money paid or any Order brought in or any Arms that were found there are three quarters of a year now passed since the first discovery certainly all this time could produce something Thousands of Letters have been taken from us some of those Letters would have discovered this thing certainly therefore we have better Evidence than he hath supposing them to be equal as to Credibility in their Original Is it credible we should be so great Rogues to contrive the Kings Death though he speaks of the Writing being carried from Chamber to Chamber concerning this matter he can never produce one Paper signed by any one mans hand nor can he produce any thing to attest his Testimony I leave this to your Lordships judgment whether this Evidence be good there is nothing appears in so much time of any effect that is produced Where were the Armies Where were the monies paid
J. Mr. Corker you have heard the Indictment read◠〈◊〉 what it consists of a Traiterous endeavour to subvert the Government to Mor◠〈◊〉 King to change the Protestant Religion into Popery if you have any witnesses that can be serviceable to you as to these matters name who they are and where they live if you cannot you had as good take your Tryal now as at another time Corker I not only have no witnesses ready but there are substantial circumstances which peradventure may arise which may induce your Lordship to believe me innocent and therefore I humbly beg I may stay some short time to consult with those that are better skill'd in the Law than I am L. C. J. What do you mean to have counsell assigned you Corker My friends my Lord. Lord Ch. Just Every man knows his own case beâ—â— you have been bread a Scholar and so you cannot be so ignorant as other men arâ— you can tell whether you have any Witnesses that you think are material for your defence Corker That day of the 24 th of April spoken of in the Indictment I truly and really believe I was not in Town that day but I cannot positively prove it because I heard not of it before Lord Ch. Just Is there any body that can testifie where you were that day can you name any one Corker Yes I believe I can name one and that is one Alice Gaton that is now 30 miles out of Town at Tunbridge who can prove where I did go about that time Lord Ch. Just I l'e tell you what if my Brothers will this woman you suppose can say something for you we will respite your Tryal for to day send some body for her and we will Trie you to morrow Lord Ch. Just North. Or any other Witnesses for as to this 24 th day of April it is known to all the world to have been the day of the Consult But because you pretend a surprise I must tell you that Mr. Attorny sent you notice with the rest but because you might be led into another opinion that the Council did not order it you have the favour to be put off till to morrow Get your Witnesses ready if you can Lord Ch. Just If you have any other Witnesses or desire any order for their appearance let us know it Corker I desire I may have liberty to have my Tryal put off till Monday Lord Ch. Just North. No it cannot be Monday is the Assogin day and then the Commission will be out Lord Ch. Just Call the Jury Cl. of Cr. Thomas White alies Whitebread hold up thy hand and so as to the rest You the Prisoners at the Bar those men that you shall hear call'd and personally appear are to pass between our Soveraign Lord the King and you upon Tryal of your several lives and deaths if therefore you or any of you will challenge them or any of them your time is to speak unto them as they come to the Book to be sworn and before they be sworn Call Sir Philip Matthews Whitebread We Challenge him my Lord that there may not be any further trouble it is our general Petition that none of those that were for any of the former Tryals may be of this Jury they having already pass'd their Judgment upon the Evidence they have heard Lord Ch. Just You may Challenge them And therefore speaking to the Clerk of the Crown dont take any that were upon the last Jury for this cause Gavan Nor any of the former Juries we do this that we may avoid giving your Lordship any farther trouble because if we should stay upon particulars we should too much trouble the Court. Lord Ch. Just North. Look you I will tell you by the way you have the liberty to Challenge peremptorily so many All we can do is to give direction to the Clerk if he do not pursue it we do not know them we can't tell you must look after that Mr. Recorder You have the Books wherein are notes of all their names by you Then The Jury that were Sworn were these Twelve JURY Thomas Harriott William Gulston Allen Garraway Richard Cheney John Roberts Thomas Cash Rainsford Waterhouse Matthew Bateman John Kaine Richard White Richard Bull and Thomas Cox Cl. of Cr. Cryer count these Thomas Harriott Cryer One c. Cl. of Cr. Thomas Cox Cryer Twelve good men and True stand together and here your Evidence Then the usual Proclamation for Infornation was made and the Jury-men of Middle-sex Summon'd and not Sworn were dismiss'd till next morning eight of the Clock Cl. of Cr. Thomas White alias Whitebread hold up thy hand and so to the rest You Gentlemen that are sworn look upon the Prisoners and hearken to their Cause they stand indicted by the names of Thomas White c. put in the indictment Mutatis Mutandis and against the form of the Statute in that case made and provided Upon this Indictment they have been Arraigned and thereunto have severally pleaded not Guilty and for their Tryals have put themselves upon God and their Country which Country you are Your charge is to enquire whether they or any of them are Guilty of the high Treason whereof they stand Indicted or not Guilty If you find them or any of them Guilty you are to enquire what Goods or Chattels Lands or Tenements they had at the time of the High Treason committed or at any time since If you find them or any of them not Guilty you are to Enquire whether they fled for it if you find that they fled for it you are to Enquire of their Goods and Chattels as if you had found them Guilty If you find them not Guilty nor that they nor any of them fled for it say so and no more and hear your Evidence Then Mr. Belwood of Counsel for the King in this cause open'd the Indictment thus Mr. Belwood May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury The Prisoners at the Bar Thomas White alias Whitbread John Fenwick William Harcourt alias Harrison John Gavan and Anthony Turner together with James Corker stand Indicted of High Treason 't is charged in the Indictment That the 24 th of April in the 30 th year of the King that now is These persons with other Traitors unknown did purpose and conspire to stir up sedition and Rebellion to cause a miserable slaughter of the Kings Subjects to depose the King of his Government and bring him to death and to change the Government and Religion by Laws established and to Levy war against the King And 't is further charged in the Indictment that pursuant of this intention of theirs and the better to bring it to pass They did Assemble Consult and agree First to bring his Maiesty to death to Murther the King and thereupon to change the Religion Established by Law to the Superstition of the Romish-Church and to subvert the whole Government and it was agreed that Pickering and
Grove should Murther the King and that therefore Whitebread and the rest of the Persons Indicted should say a Number of Mâ—sses for the Soul of Pickering And Grove for this piece of service was to have a Sum of Money And the Indictment says further that these persons did take the Sacrament to commit this Treason with more secrecy and that they did likewise Prepare Excite Abet and Counsel Four other unknown Persons to kill the King at Windsor All these Facts are said to be done Advisedly Maliciously Traiterously and Devilishly and against their Allegiance to the King To this they have pleaded Not Guilty if the Kings Evidence prove it you are to find it so And then Sir Creswell Levinz one of the King 's Learned Council in the Law proved the charge thus Sir Cr. Levinz May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury Thâ—se Prisoners at the 〈◊〉 by Persuasion Papists by Order and Dâ—â—â—â—â— thâ—â— are all Priests By the Law of the Land viz By a Statute made the 27th of Eliz. They are all Guilty of Treason for being Priests and they might be Tryed as such and ought todye for it but that is not the Fact that they are Charged with nor will they have the satisfaction toâ—ay that they suffer for their Religion No they are charged with a Treason of a blacker and darker Nature And tho I must tell you that it is now almost 100 years ago since that Statute was made against Priests coming into England Yet Examples have been very rare that any of this sort of Men have dyed for their Religion within that Queens time or any of her Successors yet they have dyed upon worse accompts and upon such accompts as they are now brought to this Bar for Such is the difference between their Religion and Ours they have been suffered to live here under a Law by which they ought to dye They kill the Protestants by Thousands without Law or Justice witness their Bloody doing at Mirendol Their Massacre as Paris Their Barbarous cruelty in Ireland since the year 1640. And those in Piedmont since 1650. But these are not the crimes they are charged with they are not accused for their Religion but for the blackest and darkest Treason that men can be charged with They are charged with an endeavour to Murder the King under whose protection they lived This murther of the King hath been carried on in the Design of it with all the malice and Resolution that can be from the first time that we can give you an account of it which was the 24th of April 1678. When these persons and several others did first Assemble about other matters of their own and among the rest to Murther the King there they came to Resolution that it should be done and persons were appointed to do it these were Grove and Pickering who have been Executed for it They were to kill the King in St. Jame's Park but it pleased God that the Flint of the Pistol failed to which we are more beholding than to them that he escaped that time They were not satisfiyd with that but they send down Four Butchers to murther him at Windsor who being disappointed they sent down Others after that to Murther him at New-Market and when all these failed they had Recourse to that Treacherous and Vnmanly way of Poysoning him and hired one so to do and they did not only intend to Murther the King but to make it good by force when they had done They intended to raise an Army they had got Commissions to several persons in the Kingdom to command these Forces They designed to raise 50000 men to maintain the Injustice when then they had done it And that was not all they had a recourse to Forreign assistance and depended upon Forreign succours if they were not made good at home Gentlemen they have been disappointed in all these things they had an intention further as I find it in my brief to make a general Massacre of all Protestants here A thing that they have done and we have heard of abroad but thanks be to God we never knew it Experimentally at home And I hope God that hath preserved us hitherto will preserve us still The mercy these Men have met with in being suffered to live under the danger of the Statute by which they might have justly dyed hath not prevailed upon or bettered them at all but been turned into Monstrous Ingratitude and made them more desperate than other people would have been Gentlemen when all this is opened I must tell you if thâ—se Persons be innocent God forbid they should suffer but if they be Guilty surely they are not fit to live among Men And truly if they be Guilty they do not only deserve to dye but to dye a more Cruel and miserable death then either the mercy of our Prince or the moderation of our Laws hath provided for such Offenders I shall detain you no longer but will call the Witnesses and then you shall Judg whether they be Guilty or not And we begin with Mr. Oates Who was Sworn Sir Cr. Levinz Pray what can you say to these Gentlemen begin with Mr. 〈…〉 Lord Ch. Just Mr. Oates apply your Evidence as distinctly as you can to one Person at first unless where the matter will take in all or more then one of them Dr. Oates My Lord I have Evidence I desire may be called in I shall have occasion to use them Gavan It may be inconvenint He may instruct his Witnesses Lord Ch. Just North. No he shall not for we will take care of that But name your Witnesses Dr. Oates There is Sir Richard Barker Mr. Walter a Minister Mrs. Mayo Philip Page Mr. William Smith and one Mr. Clay Mr. Butler Mrs. Sarah Ives Mr. Just Atkins Take a Note of their Names and send for them Lord Ch. Just Now Mr. Oates go on with your Evidence And when there is occasion to make use of these persons they shall be call'd Dr. Oates The prisoner at the Bar Mr. Whitebread was made constituted Provincial so as it was publickly known to us in the month of December last was 12 month he did Order by Vertue of his Authority one Father George Conyers to preach in the Sodality of the English Seminary on the Holyday which they call St. Thomas of Canterbury i. e. Thomas of Beckets day in which there was Order given that Mr. Conyers should Preach assert this Doctrine That the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy were Heretical Antichristian Devillish accordingly this Order was Executted and the Sermon preached Mr. Whitebread in the month of January wrote Letters or at least-wise in the beginning of February I will not be positive as to the time because it does not occur to my memory to St. Omers concerning the State of Ireland of which he had an accompt from Arch-bishop Talbot who wrote him word that there were several Thousands of Irish that were ready
to Rise when the Blow should be given in England Lord Ch. Just was that in Whitebreads's Letter Doctor Oates Yes my Lord and Mr. Whitebread did say He did hope it would not be long ere it was given Now my Lord by the word Blow we did use to understand and had instructions to understand the death and murder of the King and in the month of January I think it was that he sent over two Jesuits into Ireland to see how the state of Affairs stood there in the beginning of April they returned of which we had an account from Mr. Whitebread by Letters wherein there was mention of a Consult to be held in the month of April old Stile and May new Stile according to the Order there given there met at that Consult the Prisoners at the Bar Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt and Turner and if it please your Lordship all these at that Consult did Sign a Resolve Mr Whitebread at his Chamber which was at Wild-house Mr. Fenwick at his Lodgings in Druâ—y-lane and Mr. Harcourt who had some at his Chamber in Duke-Street But my Lord I am to premise this before I go any further that the Consult was begun at the Whitehorse Tavern in the Strand and there they did agree to send Father Cary to be their Procurator at Rome and after some such things were done they adjourned into several Clubs or Colloquies or what you please to call them One was at Mr. VVhitebread's Chamber another at Ireland's Chamber that is Executed another at Harcourt's and another at Fenwick's now here was a Resolve Signed by these Prisoners at the Bar in which Lord Ch. Just That is four of them Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt and Turner Dr. Oates Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Just Was Gavan there Dr. Oates I dare not my Lord affect him with that because I cannot be positive but I le give you my Evidence against him by and by My Lord these four Gentlemen with the rest of their Accomplices did Sign a resolve which was this That Pickering and Grove should go on in their attempt to dispatch the King and this they did resolve upon and gave it as their Judgment as a very excellent expedient My Lord after this Consult we did return we were 8 or 10 that came over and may it please your Lordships in the month of June I think it was June he came to Flanders in order to visit his Colledges being Provincial of the Jesuits of England He did stay there as near as I can remember till the 10 of June and enquiring of the Fathers how Squares went in Town among other expressions he used this was one That he hoped to see the black Fools head at Whitehall laid fâ—st enough and that if his Brother should appear to follow in his footsteps his Pasport should be made too or to that purpose he should be dispatch'd Upon the 13 th of June old Stile the 23. new Stile I had orders to come for England according to which Order I came and did take the Pacquet-Boat as near as I can remember the 24 th which was 14 th old stile and we landed at Dover the 25 th very early in the morning and when I was at Dover I met with the prisoner at the Bar Mr. Fenwick and he my self and some others did take Coach and come as far as Canterbury after we had eaten and drunk there we came six miles further where there was a Box seized by the Searchers of the Town of Borton and this Box was brought up by Mr. Fenwick and directed to one Blundel and the Superscription was as near as I can remember in these words To the Honourable Richard Blundel Esq at London And this prisoner at the Bar Mr. Fenwick did desire that the Searchers would send it to him it was full of Beads and Crucifixes and such things to the Fountain Tavern near Charing-cross and writ a Letter to him by the name of Mr. Thompson a that was the name he usually went by when he came to Dover and he had then brought some Students there to send over to St. Omers L. C. J. When went Fenwick Dr. Oates When I came to Dover I met Fenwick by the name of Thompson going to send over the Students and Fenwick did say if they had searched his pockets as they had searched his Box they had found such Letters as would have cost him his life for saith he they were about our concern in hand Then we came up to London and arrived at London the 17th of June old stile for we lay a part of the way at Sittenburgh in the morning and in the afternoon we came to Dartford and came to London Monday noon the 17th old stile And in the month of July there was one Richard Ashby whose right name indeed is Thimbleby but he went by the name of Ashby and this Gentleman did bring over Instructions from the prisoner at the Bar Mr. Whitebread who was abroad in Flanders wherein he was to propose 10000 l. to Sir George Wakeman to poison the King and several other Instructions there were of which I cannot now give you an account and withal that a blank Commission should he filled up and ordered for Sir John Gage to be a military Officer in the Army and by that Gentleman 's own orders I delivered that Commission into Sir John Gages own hand on a Sunday Lord Ch. Just Where had you that Commission from Whitebread Dr. Oates It was signed and sealed by him but it was a blank and was to be filled up L. C. Just Where Dr. Oates It was at Wild-House L. C. J. How was it filled up Dr. Oates It was filled up by Mr. Whitebreads order it was signed and sealed blank and he ordered it to be filled up and me to take that Commission and carry it to Sir John Gage Whitebread Did I order you Dr. Oates You ordered Ashby I saw the Letter and knew it to be Whitebreads hand L. C. J. Was it before he went to St. Omers Dr. Oates It was while he was at St. Omers Whiteb. What day was it what hour Dr. Oates It was in July Whiteb. What time of the month Dr. Oates The beginning or middle Whiteb. Are you sure it was in July Dr. Oates I cannot be positive but I think it to be in July for Ashby went to the Bath the latter end of July or the beginning of August and it was before he went Whiteb. Who was present at the signing of this Commission Dr. Oates There was present at the filling up of this Commission Mr. Harcourt Mr. Ashby and Mr. Ireland Fenvick Was not I there Dr. Oates I think I filled it up I 'le tell you when you were there presently My Lord when Ashby went away Fenwick went out of Town but returned again presently to give an account how Squares went and really I cannot remember where he had been but as near as I can it was in Essex I will not be positive
any Question Gav Mr. Oates you say you saw my Name to a Letter for the taking up of money To whom was that letter writ Dr. Oates There was a letter from you to Mr. Ireland And he did receive it by the hands of Grove Gavan Where was that money to be taken up Dr Oates My Lord I say that letter was received by Grove who is out of the way and can't prove it and was delivered to Ireland L.C. J. I perceive your memory is not good Gav I perceive his memory is very good Dr. Oates This letter did give an account of the business of Staffordshire and the particulars of that Mr. Gavan did afterwards give an accompt of by word o mouth and â—ome other things not fit to be named Gavan Pray where was it Sir that I gave an account of it in London or in the country Dr. Oates In London Gavan In what month Dr Oates In July it was Gavan What part of July Dr. Oates It was when Mr. Ashby was in Town the beginning or middle Gavan Just now you said it was in the latter end Dr. Oates My Lord I beg this favour that if the Prisoners at the Bar ask any questions they may be proposed to the court for they are nimble in their Questions and do a little abuse the Evidence They put things upon them that they never say Mr. Just Pemberton propose your questions to the Bench that you would have asked Gavan I will do so my Lord in whose Honour I have more confidence than in whatsoever Mr. Oates says or swears L. C. J. But he tells you who you drew your Bill of exchange upon and that was Sir William Andrews L. C. J. North Don't give the King's Witnesses ill words L. C. J. Have you any more to ask any of you Whitebread Yes my Lord. L. Ch Just See if you can catch him he gives you a long and exact accompt as can be given by any man in England and pray direct your self Mr. Whitebread to the Court. Whitebread He says he was here in April and at the Consult now I desire to know how long before that time were you I acquainted Dr. Oates Why before that time I never saw Mr. Whitbread's face Whitebread what imployment were you to have and what reward Dr. Oates When I came away from St. Omers I was to attend the motion of the Fathers at your Chamber and to carry the Resolve from chamber to chamber where the Fathers were respectively met Fenwick was not you at the White-Horse-Tavern Dr. Oates Yes I was there Fenwick Did you dine there Dr Oates No our stay was short there Fenwick How long did you stay in Town Dr. Oates Truly I can't tell you exactly but from the time I came into England to the time I went our again was under Twenty days Fenwick Who were they that came over with you Name the Parties Dr. Oa I will tell you who they were but it 's so long since I can't exactly remember Fenwick You need not trouble your memory you have them in your Narrative Dr. Oates My Lord there was Father Williams the Rector of Wotton the Rector of Leige Sir John Warner Sir Thomas Preston and some others Whitebread Was not Mr. Nevel there Dr. Oates I believe he was it is like he might be there Whitebread Was not Sir Robert Brett there Dr. Oates I believe he might Whitebread You have said so in your Narrative L. C. J. Perhaps a man will venture to write more than he will Swear not that he does Write what he does not believe but that he knows he ought to be more cautious in his Oath than in his Affirmation Fenwick My Lord with your Lordships favour it is upon Oath L.C.J.N. Fenwick you are in a Court of Law and we must go according to the Law if you will prove any contradiction in him to his Oath you must bring the persons here that saw him take the Oath and you must not think to take a Pamphlet for Evidence Fenwick It was Sworn before a Justice of Peace and will not I suppose be denied and therefore he must make his Evidence agree with it being part of his Narrative Gavan You speak of one thing in August and of another in July which month saw you me in Dr. Oates I told you I saw you in Town in July and when Father Ashby or Thimbleby was in Town And you said you would go and see him Just Pemberton He says it was in July and that is enough Gavan What time in July Dr. Oates It was towards the middle or latter end Gavan Was it before Mr. Ashby went to the Bath Dr. Oates It was so Lord Chief Just He says he saw you in Town when Ashby was in Town which was towards the latter end of July or beginning of August He cannot tell exactly whether but positively he says before Mr. Ashby went to the Bath Lord Chief Just North Well to satisfie you we will ask Mr. Oates the Question again Can you recollect whether it was the middle or latter end of July Dr. Oates My Lord as near as I can remember it was about the middle of July that Ashby came to Town and he did not stay in Town above a Fortnight And it was whilst he was in Town and designed to go down to the Bath That this Gentleman came to Town and gave accompt of the particulars of that Letter Lord Chief Just North You may ask him any Questions but I would have you observe what accompt he gives That about the middle of July Ashby came to Town that he staied in Town about a fortnight as he believes that during that time you came to Town and then was this Discourse Dr. Oates During that time I saw him in Town but I know not exactly when it was Gavan My Lord I would ask him one Question the thing that is brought against me is this He says Mr. Ashby came to Town in the middle of July that he stayed in Town a fortnight that while he was there I came to Town and had such Discourse Now my Lord I desire to know whether it was the first week or last week that Ashby was in Town that he saw me Lord Chief Just If he can answer it let him Dr. Oates My Lord I cannot Lord Chief Just He tells you he cannot charge his memory with it Dr. Oates No my Lord nor will not Lord Chief Just Really I believe there is scarce one in all this company able to give an accompt of a particular time of a passage so long ago Gavan No doubt he hath an excellent memory Lord Chief Just And if he had not some memorials of this he could not do it And though he hath memorials of the most eminent passages yet we cannot suppose he hath of all circumstances Gavan But this is the substance and your Lorship may conceive that not without Reason I urge it for if Mr. Ashby came to Town the beginning
of July and stayed but a fortnight in Town and I came to Town while he was here it must be in one of the two last weeks Now I would have it assertain'd because I may disprove it in one week or in the other Lord Chief Just 'T is true you did not amiss in asking the Question if he were able to answer it but if it be either it is enough to prove you Guilty Gaven Pray was it only one time or diverse that you saw me in London Dr. Oates It was but one day but as near as I remember I saw you twice that day and I le tell it you by a particular circumstance that I saw you in the afternoon when you were a little illish and there was a cordial brought to you by an Apothecary that went by the name of Walpoole L. C. J. Here is memory refresh'd by a circumstance you see Whether was it brought to him Dr. Oates To Ireland's chamber Gaven Who brought it Sir L. C. J. An Apothecary he says whose name was Walpoole Gavan My Lord I never saw Walpoole in all my life L. C. J. I believe he is known well enough such an one as Walpoole the Apothecary But aske what questions you will Dr. Oates I cannot say whether it was Walpoole himself or his man that brought it Gavan I do as truly believe there is a God and Heaven and an Hell as any one here does as I hope for Salvation as I hope to see God in Heaven I never saw Mr. Oates before the day in January when he says I had the Periwig on and he did not know me And as for July I call God to witness I never saw him then L. C. J. You were in town in July Gavan Upon my Salvation I was not in London L. C. J. You 'l prove that by and by Fenwick I hope my Lord we may ask him any questions in the court of our Evidence to make things clear L. C. J. Yes you may Turner Did you ever see me in all your life before you saw me at Whitehall Dr. O. You were then in a disguised habit a nasty periwig I did not know you so well Turner You at Whitehall was pleased to tell me I went by another name Dr. Oates I don't value names but your person you are the man L. C. J. You are the man he says Turner Did you see me at the Consult Dr. Oates I saw the man that speaks to me Turner Who was there and how many were present Dr. Oates There were about 40. or 50. L. C. J. When you have but one name a piece then he can hit it right but when you have so many names then you are too hard for him Turner Did you see me at the Whitehorse Dr Oates That I will not say for when they were in lesser Clubs or Colloquies I was sure of better acquaintance with them Turner Where was it you saw me Dr. Oates At Mr. Fenwicks Chamber Turner At Whitehall you said it was at Wild-House Dr. Oates My Lord because the chiefest part of the consult sate at Wild-House we called all it the consult at Wild-House L. C. J. I 'le your defence will be little else but captiousness to disprove him in circumstances of time place persons or numbers now all these are but little matters to the Substance T is true Mr. Whitebread If you can prove you were not at that place a that time it will do you great Service Have you any thing more to say to him Lord Ch. Just North I hope your witnesses are in readiness that you were sp◠〈◊〉 â—f to fortify your Testimony Dr. Oates Yes my Lord they are I desire they may be heard Lord Chief Justice By and by when occasion is Jury My Lord I desire he may be asked one Question L. C. J. Mr. Garraway what Question would you aske him Jury Where it was that he saw Mr. Turner at the Consult Dr. Oates I saw him at Fenwick chamber where he was a member of the Consult and being so I saw him sign the Resolve of the Kings death Lord Chief Just Did you see him Dr. Oates Yes I did Sir Crâ—sw Levins Then we desire Mr. Dugdale may be sworn which was done Come Mr. Dugdale pray will you tell my Lord and the Jury what you know concerning Whitebread and Harcourt First about Whitebread Mr. Dugdale My Lord I have very little acquaintance with the man I have seen him at Tixall with my old Lady Aston Lord Chief Just When Mr. Dugdale I dare not speak the time but appeal to him himself about the truth of it Lord Chief Just Is it years ago Mr. Dugdale It is two or three years ago Lord Chief Just Well what can you say against him Mr. Dugdale Mr. Whitebread did write a Letter that I saw under his own hand inclosed in a Letter from Mr. Groves to Mr. Ewers wherein he gave Mr. Ewers a caution to be sure to choose those that were very trusty it was no matter whether they were Gentlemen or no so they would be but stout and couragious This was the purport of the Letter I cannot say the words exactly but that he should chose those that were hardy and desperate or to that purpose Lord Chief Just Pray where was it you saw that Letter Mr. Dugd. At Tixall Lord Chief Just How came you to see it Mr. Dugdale Because all the Letters were directed to me that came to Mr. Ewers inclosed in Mr. Groves Letters And so I intercepted the Letter and read it Lord Chief Just What was Mr. Ewers Mr Dugdale A Jesuit my Confessor for I was entertained by Mr. Gavan to be in the conspiracy of the Kings death and so I was by several others Lord Chief Just You were not acquainted with Mr. Whitebreads hand were you Mr. Dugdale My Lord I only came acquainted with Mr. Whitebreads hand by seeing him write a Letter at Tixal which he delivered to me to send L. C. Just I pray let me understand you You say that Mr. Whitebread did write a letter to Mr. Ewers inclosed in one from Mr. Grove wherein he advised that he should entertain lusty stout fellows and no matter whether they were Gentlemen or to that effect Now I ask you how you do know that was Whitebreads hand or was it his name only that was to it Mr. Dugdale My Lord I saw his name at it Lord Chief Just When you saw that Letter had you ever seen his hand before Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord I saw it to another Letter which I saw him write â—â—rd Chief Just And that was like the hand in the Letter to Ewers's was it 〈◊〉 Dugdale Yes I do almost positively swear it was the same hand 〈◊〉 Ch. Just But what say you to Gavan and Ewers 〈◊〉 â—â—gdale There were several Consultations in Mr. Ewers's chamber my 〈…〉 at Boscobel and several other places Mr. Gavan might he so ingenuous to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chief Baron What were those Consultations
for Mr. Dugdale For conspiring the Kings death and introducing of Popery Mr. Gavan was chiefly made use of as a good Orator and learned man â—â—â—d a good Scholar to perswade people into the design this I speak as to these personâ— Lord Chief Just Pray go on Sir for you shall have a full scope for you never were a Witness in any of the Trials before and you may take your own way and you shall be heard you shall not be interrupted for what you say is very considerable Mr. Dugdale One meeting I think was in September last it was aâ— â—â—â—â—l and there was my Lord Stafford and several others Lord Chief Just Was Gavan there Mr. Dugdale Yes Mr. Gavan was there I suppose he will not deny it Mr. Justice Pemberton Don't rely upon that he will deny it you may be sure go on You say he was there Mr. Dugdale Yes and that was to carry on the Design And I was by to hear I think Mr. Ireland was in the countrey then there was you speaking to Mr. Gavan Mr. Peters Mr. Lewson and Mr. Ewers at this Consult and there was another my Lord Stafford and others that I cannot now name Gavan What time Mr. Dugdale It was in September 1678. Gavan What day Mr. Dugdale I think it was 21. September Lord Chief Justice What was that Consult and Conspiracy about in short Mr. Dugdale It was for the introducing of Popery and taking away the Life of the King I being a person chosen out for that purpose and was to besent to London by Mr. Harcourt to be under the tuition of Mr. Parsons Lord Chief Justice Pray who mentioned this was that the first time that ever they discoursed of the death of the King Mr. Dugdale No my Lord it was two years ago but I speak of a shorter time Lord Chief Justice Who began the discourse Mr. Dugdale Mr Gavan often discoursed of it and incouraged me to it Lord Chief Justice Who broke it first to you who seemed that principal man Mr. Dugdale Ewers and Gavan Lord Chief Justice By the Oath that you have taken repeat it once more for this is new to Us. Gavan 'T is so to me too upon my soul for upon my conscience I never heard of it before Lord Chief Justice 'T is a mighty confirmation of what was before discovered Mr. Dugdale But I speak to Mr. Gavan and appeal to him himself Gavan Look upon me with confidence if you can Mr. Justice Pemberton You must not threaten the Kings Witnesses Mr. Dugd. Mr. Gavan I desire you to inform the Lords and all here present whether I was not under your Tuition and whether you knew any unjust action by me Gavan You were never under my Tuition Lord Chief Just Did you ever know him Gavan Yes my Lord he used to come sometimes where I was and so we were acquainted and I lived within 11 miles of Tixal my Lord Astons and having acquaintance in that Family Mr. Ewers whom I know very well I used to come there sometimes but I never was in his Chamber in my life In what Room of my Lord Astons house was this Discourse Mr. Dugdale Some of it was in the little Parlour and some in Mr. Ewers's Chamber Gavan Were any present there And who were they Mr. Dugdale I have told you there was Mr. Ewers and Mr. Lewson and Mr. Peter's and some others and for a further Confirmation of this That Mr. Gavan may know that I had a great zeal for him and that they did love me well I gave them an Estate or else I believe they would not have trusted me so well as they did I gave them 400 l. to pray for my Soul and for the carrying on of this Design and when they told me they doubted they should want money I promised them 100 l. more for the carrying on the work Upon which Mr. Gavan promised me that I should be Canoniz'd for a Saint Mr. Just Pemb. Mr. Gavan himself Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord. Mr. Belwood What do you know of any Forraign Assistance Lord Ch. Just I would seign have all the world hear this pray what was Discoursed in the Parlour in my Lord Ashon's house and in Ewer's Chamber Mr. Dugdale It was about taking away the King's life and introducing the Popish Religion Lord Ch. Just By the Oath you have taken was that their Discourse Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord They were contriving how to kill the King and introduced Popery Sir Cr. Levins Pray have you heard any Discourse of an Army or about making a Massacre Mr. Dugdale It was spoken in my hearing and there was some discourse why they should expect Forces from beyond Sea and this Gentleman said meaning Mr. Gavan though they Beyond the Seas had Troubles enough upon themselves yet if we could effect it men and money would not be wanting I will add nothing more than the Truth in what I say L. Ch. Just You deliver your Testimony like a sober modest man upon my word Sir Chr. Levins What say you as to a massacre Mr. Dugdale My Lord I have at some Consulations heard speak of it but the chief thing that they aimed at was first there was a letter that came out of Paris and came through Mr. Harcouort's hands and so came down into the Country to prove that it was the Opinion of them at Paris and St. Omers to fling all this upon the Presbyterians that is the Death of the King That if any thing of that nature should happen they should be ready to give the first Alarum and give out That it was those still King-killing Presbytorians that had done the Fact And so they thought they should easily have brought in the Episcopal party into their Company to revenge themselves of the Presbyterians Lord Ch. Just It was prity Advise indeed to have it first laid on the Presbyterians that they might get Protestants to join and cut them off and then their own Throats should be cut Mr. Dugdale And then my Lord there was to be a massacre and if any did escape that they could not be sure of were Papists they were to have an Army to cut them off Mr. Belwood Did he ever use any Arguments to you to prove the lawfulness of the Design Mr. Dugdale Yes my Lord he hath and shewed me several Examples for confirming me in it Lord Chief Justice What for killing the King Mr. Dugdale For the killing of any to introduce their own Religion Mr. Belwood Pray will you name some Mr. Dugdale He endeavoured to prove it by Scripture I cannot now call the Text to mind but it was to shew how it was lawful and good to destroy any for the advantage of their Religion and then he shewed the Example of Father Garnett How several of his Reliques being beyond Sea great miracles had been done by them Lord Chief Justice And so now there is by St. Coleman too Sir Cr. Levins What Letters have you received from
following my Letters brought it down to me L. C. J. when was it that this was spoken Mr. Chetwin it was Tuesday morning as I remember and that by very good circumstance I went that day for Lichfield the Saturday after the News came to me to Lichfield that Sir Edmundbury was found murthered L. C. J. The Jury will do well to observe this in point of time Sir Edmundbury-Godfrey was kill'd as it was since proved a Saturday but on Munday he was missed on Thursday he was found and on Saturday the News was spread all over the Country Now said he the Tuesday before the news came down which must be the Tuesday after the Saturday he was killed one comes from the Alehouse and asks do you not hear of a Justice of Peace at Westminster that is killed for the Wench at yonder Alehouse saies Mr. Dugdale was here this morning and reported that such an one was killed So that it is most Notorious as any thing in the World can be that this thing was known to them before any of us knew what was become of him Mr. Justice Pemberton How do you further know it to be upon Tuesday Mr. Cherwin I know it to be that Tuesday my Lord very well for we all went about such a time to my Cousins Mothers to stay a Week there and after I returned back and on tuesday the 15th of October I went to the Race to Lichfield and stayed till Saturday there and came thence to London and was here the Wednesday being the first day of the Term. But I remember particularly the first information Mr. Dugdale gave in the Country came to my cousins hands from the Mayor of Stafford and I happen'd to see him I think it was Christmas day It came inclosed in a letter upon the apprehension of Mr. Dugdale I remember I met him and he told me of it and said he the Parliament did nor sit that day so he went to acquaint the Lord Lieutenant of the County that is the Duke of Monmouth with it who carried it to the King But when Mr. Dugdale was sent for my cousin went down and writ me a good character of him As soon as ever Dugdale came to Town before he went to be examined by the Council as I remember I went with some Gentlemen to speak with him and said I to him can you say any thing about Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's Death Said he I remember such a Letter came at such a time from Father Harcourt to Father Ewers wherein were these words This Night Sir Edmundbury Godfrey is dispatched And said he I remember I asked the Question of Ewers Is not this likely to spoil all the design No said he he was a man that prosecuted persons that went to debauch'd Houses and it will be saâ—â— to be some of them that did revenge themselves of him or words to the same effecâ— This made me recollect the time I had the discourse with the Gentlemen in the country I happened to be out of town when the murtherers of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey were Tryed as soon as â— came to town and found that the murtherers of Sir Edmondbury Godfrey were condâ—â—ned I was at a Coffee-house enquiring how it was managed some I found slighted others did not know what to make of it Was not mr Dugdale there said I No said they Then I presume said I that a very material evidence was omitted Upon this I went to Mr. Dugdale's Chamber and there said I to him What was the reason you were not produced as an Evidence at the Tryal of Sir Edmonbury Godfrey's murtherers Said I you told such a thing and I hope you told Truth for I don't hear that you have ever contradicted it that you saw a Letter about the monday after he was murthered In my judgment it is very material if you have sworn it If your deposition be true or else you did ill to report it Said I pray let me see the Copy of your deposition sworn before the Council He shew'd it me and there was not a syllable of it that I could see but afterwards appear'd to be there L. C. J. That is not very material if the thing it self be true Mr Chetwin But it s not being there made me remember it Mr. Recorder Pray set up mr Dugdale again Now pray tell the Contents of mr Whitebread's Letter Mr. Dugdale The Contents of it was to encourage mr Ewers to go on to be careful whom he did intrust that they should be such fellows as were desperate hardy courageous and stout or to that purpose it was no matter whether they were Gentlemen or no so they were but couragious and desperate Mr. J. A. What were they to do Mr. Dugdale For the killing of the King L. C. J. Was that in Whitebreads Letter Mr. Dugdale mr Whitebread did write those words they were in the Letter Whitebread Was that very word in the Letter for killing the King Mr. Dugdale It was that they should be stout and couragious persons L. C. J. For what end Mr. Dugdale It was for taking away the King's life L. C. J. I ask you recollect your self was it by way of description of some Design or Plot that those persons were to be chosen out or was it in downright words for killing the King Mr. Dugdale To the best of my remembrance they were those very words L C J. It was much he would write such words in a letter Mr. Dugdale I was one that was made choice of about it Mr. J. Pemberton Were you to be one Mr. Dugdale Yes I was Mr. J. Pemberton Mr. Gavan you know who it was you entertained for this Business and you could trust them L. C. J. How were these letters conveyed Were they sent by the Ordinary Post Mr. Dugdale Yes they were and they trusted me with them because being directed to me if they were intercepted I should be hang'd and they saved Mr. J. Pemberton Upon these letters what were you entertained to do Mr. Dugdale my Lord I was entertained before by my Lord Stafford and mr Ewers Mr. J. Pemberton What to do Mr. Dugdale To kill the King Whitebread Pray Sir How came you to see these letters Did you intercept them and read them your self Mr. Dugdale I did intercept them and open them of my own self Whitebread Pray take notice of what he says Gentlemen Mr. Recorder The Jury do take notice L. C. Baron Do you know any thing against mr Turner and mr Fenwicks Mr. Dugdale Mr. Ewers hath told me by word of mouth that he was to carry on the Design in Worcestershire but I saw him with mr Ewers and Lewson and others when he was going to his Brother Turners then in Nottinghamshire and they did consult and agree there in my hearing to all that I have said before Turner What did I assent to Mr. Dugdale Why this Design you and mr Ewers and Lewson and others agreed to what I said before Turner Where
was this Mr. Dugdale At Tixal and other places Turner In what month Mr. Dugdale It was about two years ago about the beginning of the Business Turner Where was it Mr. Dugdale It was at Mr. Ewers Chamber you know me very well Turner I have not been in Staffordshire these four years L. C. J. why don't you know him Mr. Turner Turner I do know I have been there a matter of three or four times in my whole life but have not been there these four years Mr. J. Windham Have you any thing to say against Fenwick Mr. Dugdale I don't know that ever I saw him before Mr. Recorder But he speaks fully as to the other Four Sir Chr. Levins Call Mr. Prance and swear him Which was done Sir Chr Levins Come on Mr. Prance What can you say to Mr. Fenwick or any of the others Mr. Prance Mr. Harcourt I made him an Image of our Lady about a year ago and when I was receiving mony for it it was to be sent into Merry-Land you told me then that there was a design of killing the King Lord Ch. Just Who told you Mr. Prance Mr. Harcourt that very time Sir Chr. Levins When was it Mr. Prance It was when it was sent to Merryland in the Portugal's Countrys you know it well Mr. Harcourt Harcourt I know nothing of it Sir Chr. Levins Pray let him alone till we have done with him Harcourt I desire but to know when it was Mr. Prance When I received the money for the picture it was a year ago Sir Chr. Levins What say you to Mr. Fenwick Mr. Prance I was in Mr. Ireland's chamber in Russel-Street and there was Ireland Fenwick and Grove and they were talking of 50000 men that should be raised and be in readiness to carry on the Catholick cause and settle the Catholick Religion I asked who should Govern them they told me my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis and my Lord Arundel Lord Ch. Just Who told you so Mr. Prance Mr. Fenwick Lord Ch. Just How long ago Mr. Prance About a fortnight Michaelmas last Mr. Grove came to me two or three days afterward to buy two or three Silver Spoons to give away at a Christning and then I asked him what Office he should be in he told me he could not tell but he told me my Lord Arundel my Lord Bellasis and my Lord Powis had Commissions for these things to give L. C. J. This Grove told you Mr. Prance Yes my Lord. L. C. J. But what did Fenwick tell you Mr. Prance He told me who were to govern the Army my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis my Lord Arundel of Wardour Sir Ch. Levins Had he any discourse with you about Trade Mr. Prance He said I should not fear Trade I should have Churchwork enough Mr. Belwood Pray speak that again Mr. Prance I asked him what shall we poor Tradesmen do if you have civil wars in England O said he you need not fear having trade enough you shall have Church-work enough to make Images Chaâ—ices and Crucifixes and Vases and such like things Mr. Belwood If you will ask Mr. Prance any questions pray do Fenwick My Lord I am certain of this that he never saw me at Mr. Ireland's chamber in that company not did I ever speak of any such thing before him Mr. Prance Mr. Ireland and he have been sitting together whole hours and consulting about some concern or other mischief no doubt My Lord I went to Mr. Fenwick's chamber after my Ghostly Father was dead L. C. J. What was his Name Mr. Prance Father James And he importuned me to come to confession to him I told him I was not yet very well satisfied who I should go to to be my Ghostly Father Fenwick When was this Mr. Prance Mr. Prance Before Michaelmas about a week or eight days L. C. J. Did not you know him Mr. Fenwick Fenwick Who Father James yes very well and I know Mr. Prance but not upon that account Mr. Prance And I brought you a Table home for the Altar at the same time Mr. J. Pemberton Who was it importuned you to have him for your Confessor Mr. Prance It was Mr. Fenwick and I told him when I did come to Confession I would come to him And he injoyned me onâ—e or twice to say nothing of what I heard said L. C. J. If Harcourt have any questions to asked him let him Harcourt Can you say that ever â—â—pose to you about any such Business M. Prance Yes as sure as I stand in this place and you in that And one Thomson came with you when you paid me for four Candlesticks L. C. J. Do you know Mr. Thompson Harcourt Yes I do L. C. J. Had you any Chandlesticks from Mr. Prance Harcourt I had a great while ago Mr. Prance He paid me 44 l. that time for them Mr. Recorder Call Mr. Bedlow Who was Sworn Sir Chr. Levins What can you say to any the prisoners at the Bar L. C. J. What can you say as to Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Fenwick Mr. Bedloe My Lord I do not question but Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Fenwick will object against me my refusing to give in Evidence against them at the former Tryal but I think that there are some upon your Honourable Bench that can make my Apology for not giving in all my Evidence aginst them then for it was not convenient because it would have stopt a Design I was then upon and could not get off from that was about Mr. Reading whom I was then treating with for Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Fenwick as well as the Lords in the Tower and he told me that he would depend upon my confidence Justice as to the Lords according as I did deal with these men if I brought them off he would believe the Lords in the Tower believe that I would bring them off too So that I did make an Apology them in the Court that I could not safely say all that I had to say at that time Some of the Justices I believe do remember it and in that which I did give in against them I did not say all nor half that I could have said Whitebread Did you say any thing of that at the last Tryal Mr. Bedloe I will answer that matter to the Court but 't is the measure they always take to intrap the Witnesse for now I am out of a country that will give me an indulgence and dispensation to speak exactly to a day or an hour as their St. Omers Witnesses have L. C. J. But what say you now to them Mr. Bedloe I did then say that I did see M. Whitebread and he hath been in several consultations for the carrying on of the plot but then I did it with a caution that I never heard of Mr. Whitebread that he was so very much concerned and indeed I had no reason to say so because I heard him my self and could not well speak from the hearsay of
in all my life and this is four years since Then said I what will serve your turn he told me twenty shillings which I lent to him and I never saw his face afterwards till I met him at the Privy Council and therefore how should a man believe a word he says Lord Chief Justice But how shall a man know that what you say is true Mr. Bedloe I will make it appear at the Tryal of the Lords that I sent to him for ten pounds and had it I cannot now prove it without bringing some Witnesses that I have behind a Curtain and I will not discover them till then they shall not know who they are Mr. Justice Windham Will you ask him any Questions Mr. Bedloe My Lord I have not said the one hundreth part of what I can say honestly and like a Christian of Mr. Harcourt Harcourt You may say what you will but you wont speak Truth Mr. Bedloe Mr. Harcourt went with me to Mr. Colemans when I carried over the Consult There was the greatest part of the Design in that which I was to carry over to Saint Omers and that Consult did I fetch from Mr. Coleman and Mr. Harcourt was with me and I had thanks from Mr. Coleman for my Fidelity in the Business and Expedition in bringing and carrying the Pacquets I was recommended to my Lord Arundel by Mr. Harcourt and was promised by his Lordship all the Friendship and Favor imaginable when the Times were turned Lord Chief Justice Why here you see he names several places and times wherein he met with you Harcourt Nâ—t one word of all this is true Mr. Bedloe I desire you to ask Mr. Harcourt my Lord Whether he was not in August or September last in company with me and Le Faire Harcourt Le Faire I know no le Faire Mr. Bedloe Le Fevre then Harcourt Le Fevre I believe I did see at that time but not since Mr. Bedloe Prichard did recommend the care of me to him Lord Chief Just There he names another time when you and Prichard were there together Mr. Bedloe Prichard was my Confident and my great Friend and told them This is a person whose Fidelity you have tried in carrying over such and such letters and therefore you may very well trust him and take care of him and so he recommended me as one that was really sit to understand the bottom of the Design And Prichard did tell me before them that the King's death was intended as a part of it and he sent me again another time to Mr. Harcourt but it was about no material business and Harcourt gave a Bill of Exchange to carry to what Citizen I don't know but to Sir Geoâ—ge Wakeman to have 2000 l. by whose Orders as they said your Lordship shall know upon his Tryal but I saw Harcourt give him the Bill of Exchange Mr. Justice Dolben Who gave the Bill Mr. Bedloe It was Harcourt my Lord. Harcourt Who was by when this Bill was given Mr. Bedloe Kaines and Sir William Anderson Harcourt How was this Bill drawn Mr. Bedloe It was drawn upon a Citizen and lest in your hands Harcourt I desire he may name the Citizen and if he can make it out if he do it will appear upon the merchants Books Mr. Bedloe Sir George Wakeman received a Bill of Exchange from Mr. Harcourt and he was told here is a Bill of Exchange for 2000 l. as part of a greater Sum to which Sir George Wakeman answered that 15000 l. was a small Reward for the settling of Religion and preserving of the three Kingdoms from Ruine but if it were not for such a Woman he would never undertake it but for her he would do any thing And after he had given Sir George Wakeman the Bill Sir George Wakeman opened it and read it but I did not read the name that was to it Fenwick My Lord it seems not sufficient proof that he says he saw a Bill of Exchange unless he says from whom and to whom that it may be proved by the Books or otherwise Lord Chief Justice You say well Mr. Fenwick if so be he had been the person concerned in the Bill that he were either one that drew it or was to receive the money then it were strange that he would not know the parties to it but I must tell you where he was not one nor the other it was a collateral matter Do people take notice of every particular Bill of Exchange that they see which they are neither to pay nor receive Fenwick But what reason does he give your Lordship or the Jury to believe that there was such a Bill unless he does produce either the Bill or the person that paid it Mr. Bedloe I did only see the Bill out of Mr. Harcourts hand but it was read there only by Sir George Wakeman Lord Chief Justice Is it a pin matter whether there were such a Bill or no or whether he had mentioned it or no Fenwick But seeing he hath mentioned it I say there is nothing of proof of it but only his bare word L. Chief Just Yes there is his Oath Sir Cr. Levins And I desire the Jury to take notice how unreasonable a thing it is that you ask You would have Mr. Bedloe produce the Bill of Exchange that was given to Sir George Wakeman to receive money Mr. Bedloe I have only one word more Sir George Wakeman received the Bill of Exchange from Mr. Harcourt read it himself folded it up and went and received the money and that the Court will be pleased to see my Commission for now I have is here Which was read by my Lord Chief Justice North and several others Sir Cr. Levins We have only this one matter to trouble your Lordship the Jury with You perceive by the Evidence that hath been given that the main matter begins at the Consult of the 24 th of April when the Consult was now to fortifie this Evidence we are now to produce a Letter that was written from one Petre at St. Omers Jesuit wherein is mention made that he was to give notice mr Whitebread had appointed a general meeting just at that time in London at which they were to consult of very great matters and they were to be very private in their coming to and appearing about the Town And this Letter was taken amongst Mr. Harcourts Papers and to prove it we call Sir Thomas Doleman Who was sworn Sir Cr. Levins Pray what can you say where this letter was found Sir Thomas Doleman It was found amongst Mr. Harcourts Papers in a bag of his Papers that was committed to my care to search Lord Chief Just Can you tell what day you found it Sir Th. Doleman It was a matter of six or seven days after Mr. Oates had given his information of this Plot to the Council Harcourt What Paper is it Mr. Justice Atkins Hear it first L. C. J. It is a letter found amongst your
any other particular time Dr. Oates And there are more of them then in the Court of Requests and in the Lobies bare-faced and threatning the Protestants than at any other time M. Bedloe We used to fetch them against the Parliament always they were in less danger then than at other times L C. J. You could give a very good interpration of the Letter I supposed that Mr. Dugdale speaks of that came from Whitebread That he should be sure to entertaine such as were hardy stout Fellows I suppose you can make all this to signifie nothing more than a design for a Game at Cudgels Sir Cr Levins If your Lordship please we must desire that one Letter more may be read Your Lordship hath been told of Commissions for the raising of an Army here is a touch of them mentioned in this letter found amongst Mr. Harcourt's letters too L. C. J. Look you Mr. Harcourt you had best attend here is another letter found amongst your papers concerning some Commissions You look ill to your letters you are to blame indeed Mr. Harcourt Sir Cr. Levins Pray Sir Thomas Doleman look upon that Paper and tell us how you came by it Sir Thomas Doleman This letter in my hand I found amongst Mr. Harcourt's papers about some two days after I found that other that was read before Having heard Mr. Oates give in his information to the Council That there were several Commissions given out to several persons and finding some doubtful clauses and Expressions in the letter I did present this letter to the Council and made a mark upon it Enquire what is ment by the word Patents Lord Chief Just Pray let it be read because we shall desire a little more of their interpretation Cl. of Cr. It is signed Christopher Anderton ' Hilton Feburary the 5th 1677 8. Dr. Oates Hilton that is Rome Lord Chief Just Mr. Harcourt you understand that by Hilton is ment Rome Harcourt Yes my Lord I do L. C. J. Well then go on and read it Cl of Cr Worthy Sir I know not from whence it proceeds but I perceive that both your Letters and mine have bad fortune by the way for my corrospondents with you complain they hear not from me whereas I write constantly intire Pacquets and since the Bills I received from your self for Sr. William Goring and for Mr. Ireland from Mr. Shelly I have not had one letter but that I received this week which in part made recompence for the former for it brought me three of yours and one of Mr. Ireland 's for which I render you many humble thanks and acknowledge the fifteen pounds from my Lord Castlemain though Mr. Ireland made no mention of it in his We are all here very glad of the promotion of Mr. Tho. Harcourt When I writ that the Patents were sent although I guess for whom they were yet I knew not for certain because our Patrons do not use to discover things or resolutions till they know they have effect And therefore in these kind of matters I dare not be too hasty left some might say A Fools Bolt is soon shot Lord Chief Just What is the meaning of these Patents Fenwick This Gentleman will tell you my Lord. Whitebread My Lord they were the Patent for my being Provincial Lord Chief Just How many Patents had you Whitebread But one my Lord. Lord Chief Just Is that Patents Whitebread Literae Patentes Lord Chief Just Is it Patent or Patents Clerk of Cr. Patents Lord Chief Just Read those words again Clerk of Ca. We are all here very glad at the promotion of Mr. Tho. Harcourt when I writ that the Patents were sent although I guess for whom they were yet I knew not for certain because our Patrons do not to discover things or Resolutions till they know they have effect Lord Chief Just Now you have not interpreted well this neither Sir Cr. Levins It is said I knew not for certain who they were for but to make it clear I would desire Mr. Whitebread to answer me one Question how long is it Sir since you were made Provincial Whitebread The 14th of January was twelve-month Sir Cr. Levins And this was dated the 5th of February which was after your Commission Whitbread That may be and they not know till then Lord Ch Just And so you expound those latter words of the Letter That the Resolution of making you Provincial was not discovered till the effect was known Whitebread Because it is not known whether the person that is nominated might not be excepted against and it is Literae Patentes Lord Chief Just But here is but one person to answer the word Patents and there should be more than one man Whiteb. Every Patent is called Literae Patentes though it be but for one person Mr. Recorder They were in great doubt that you would refuse the place I warrant Dr. Oats He is bound in pain of Damnation not to disobey his Superiours if they chuse him to a place he must take it upon him Whitebread It is not the first second or hundredth time that one hath been appointed by the Superiour to a place and hath refused it and if I had known the hundredth part of what I do now of the trouble of the place I would never have accepted it Mr. Recorder Ay if you had known the difficulty of this Design you would never have ingaged in it especially if you had known what is come to pass Whitebread No Sir I never had a hand in any such thing in all my life this is coram Deo that I now speak and as I am to appear before the great Tribunal at the day of Judgment I know nothing of all this matter Dr. Oats My Lord these Patents of which this Letter makes mention a great many of them came down in the months of April and May before Lord Chief Just Methinks he interprets them plainer than you do Lord Chief Baron Now what have you to say every one of you for your selves make your defence Lord Chief Just Mr. Whitebread do you begin Dr. Oates While the Prisoners Evidence is calling in I desire that my Witnesses may be sworn Mr. Just Pemberton Mr. Oats be quiet there is no need of it yet till they have made their defence Lord Chief Just But send for them that they may be ready Whitebread My Lord that which I have to say for my self is this I thank God my Lord I am not afraid of death but I should be very loth to die unjustly and I hope your Lordship will consider that every mans blood is dear to him and is concerned for his own life to preserve it he ought to be allowed liberty and freedom to preserve himself as much as he can Life is a thing not to be thrown away but charily to be lookt after and that there is such a thing as taking away mens lives by Perjury as well as by a Knife or Pistol is without contradiction Now
whoever comes against a man for his life I suppose he is to be looked upon not only by the Prisoner but also by the Jury and the Court that he ought to be Probus Testis and a man fit to be admitted to be a Witness Now I have something to offer That Mr. Oates is not any such person Your Lordship was pleased to say That he was the person who proved the Design mentioned in the Letter that was read Now I hope your Lordship will give me leave and I hope I may do it without offence to this Court to say that he is perjured in what he says Lord Chief Just You mean that his Evidence is false you may do it if you can Whitebread He says he came over hither and was here present the 24th of April with me and that I did appoint him to do such and such things and discovered the whole business to him Now I desire your Lordship would be pleased to consider whether this were probable and whether I had not been a very much mistaken man all this while to trust a man with such a business and whether I ought not rather to be sent to Bedlam than Newgate for trusting such a man as he whom by his own confession I never saw till that time 'T is not rational that a man would trust him and then my Lord that this business should be discovered to him a man that depended wholly upon us to live and had no livelihood but what he had from us who maintained him at St. Omers long as well as the best man in the house Lord Chief Just Did you do it Whitebread Yes my Lord I did Lord Chief Just You should consider how in that you answer your self Whitebread I that is when I came to the Office and I and my Predecessors When I was Superiour I found him not a fit man for that purpose and design he pretended to He was very zealous to be entertained amongst us and therefore I desired him to absent himself Lord Chief Just Why was he not fit to be employed among you Whitebread For several reasons of our own First of all it was doubtful whether he was a good Catholick for he had oftentimes maintained several Propositions that were not soundly Catholick and then secondly he led a very idle life and he was not found a man we were obliged to accept of and therefore we desired him to retire And to that purpose we furnished him gave him a good Suit of Cloaths and a Perriwig and four pounds in his purse and he promised me to pay me again when he had sold his Library which he said he had a very good one in London but he never did But that I should be so strangely overseen and mad as at the first sight of such a man aâ— this to trust him with such a great intrigue as this was and to write in such a plain strange manner and send by Post to Mr. Dugdale as your Lordship did and justly might wonder at had been a madness It was much that any man would write so plain of such a thing But then my Lord the chief thing is this That I hope your Lordship will give us leave to produce our Witnesses to prove that he was not from Saint Omers from the tenth of December till the 23d of June following and never lay out of the House but one night from December till June Lord Chief Just Name your Witnesses Whitebread I desire first Mr. Hilsly may be called Lord Chief Just Call him but I 'll tell you what is strange You say it is wonderful that you should trust a man you had so little Opinion of his Abilities or Fidelity but I wonder that you should maintain him after that Whitebread No my Lord we did not Lord Chief Just You say you did Whitebread No my Lord he pretends he was here in England sent over by us but we will prove he was not Lord Chief Just But you maintained him abroad Whitebread That was before Lord Chief Just Is it so great a wonder that you should take into your Confidence and Consultation that man whom for a considerable time before you had maintained abroad Whitebread But my Lord I suppose there is some difference between charitable acts to a man in want and a Scholar and trusting him with such an intrigue as this Fenw Pray my Lord be pleased to take notice that this mans Evidence all along is that he saw such and such letters from such and such persons They have no Evidence but just that they saw such and such letters and how is it possible that a man who was turned away from Saint Omers for his misdemenours that I should shew all my letters Now my Lord I have had a thousand letters taken from me not any of these letters had any thing of Treason in them or soliciting of persons to come into England let the letters be produced and then your Lordship will see what is in them All the Evidence that is given comes but to this there is but saying swearing I defie them all to give one probable Reason to satisfie any reasonable uninteressed man judgment how this could be Lord Chief Baron There can be no reason given why you should sign an instrument to kill the King Lo C. J. You say there is nothing but saying swearing but you do not consider what you say in that matter All the Evidence and all the Testimony in all Tryals is by swearing A man come and swears that he saw such a Bond sealed or heard such words spoken this is saying and swearing but it is that proof that we go by and by which all mens lives and fortunes are to be determined But then say you 't is wonderful that since they say they saw such and such letters they should not produce them why they did not belong to them Ay but then say you 't is strange they should not find one letter in all those numerous papers that were taken that contains any trayterous matter but I say 't is forty times more a wonder that one should be taken than for all the rest to be undiscovered I suppose Mr. Harcourt amongst those Papers that he let be surprised did not think that letter that hath been read to have been of such consequence nor the sence of it to be so bad Fenwick I dreamt no more of my apprehension when I was taken than the day of my death it was so unexpected nor what I should be accused of I had no fear of it no thought of it so that I took nothing out of the way They took five or six thousand pound Bonds and Bills besides letters methinks something of the Effects of those letters might be produced and some of the design appear For God's sake where are the Commissions signed and monies paid Lord Chief Just They talk of a Patent Mr. Whitebread construes it that it is his Commission if so does it lie
in Oates or Bedlow's power to shew that Commission this is just like that of the Bill of Exchange neither does it in any of the letters Fenwick Here is Mr. Hilsly my Lord. Whiteb. My Lord we pray we may have the favour that they may be sworn Lord Chief Just North. By law they cannot L. C. J. N. In no Capital case against the King can the witnesses for the Prisoner be sworn but I will say this to the Jury That they are not sworn is because they cannot but the Jury is to take great heed of what they say and to be governed by it according to the credibility of the person and of the matter Gavan My Lord if you please to give me leave my Lord Coke in his Institutes sayes expresly That there is no positive Law against it his words are there is not so much as scintilla Juris against it L. C. J. No. We know that the constant usage and practice is so and you cannot produce any man that in any Capital case had his witnesses sworn against the King L. C. J. My Lord Coke says otherwise That the evidence should be so plain that nothing could be answered to it and therefore no evidence should be sworn against the King Gavan My Lord those are the words of my Lord Coo. L. C. J. You argue against the known practice of all Ages L C. J. No. There never was any man in a Capital cause sworn against the King The common Law is the custome of the Kingdom and we are bound to know it and must all be governed by it Whitebread In mr Ireland's Tryal pag 35 36. he says he came over with Sir John Warner Father Williams and mr Hilsley from St. Omers Mr. J. Pem. Nay you must not resort to the printed Tryals for evidence Fenwick If we can prove him perjured at any time I hope we may L. C. J. Suppose upon the taking of those printed Tryals they mistake shall mr Oat therefore be thought guilty of perjury If you have any thing to ask of your Witnesses which you can apply to the evidence given now you may Fenw. Mr. Oates did not you your self own then you came over with mr Hilâ—sh Dr. Oates Ask me any question about what I have given to day and if the Bench think it reaâ—â—nable 〈…〉 answer it Fen. My Lord he 〈…〉 m that he came over with these persons in which he is for swrrn L. C. J. He is not convicted of perjury and therefore that must not be urged Fen My Lord we will prove by witnesses that were at the Tryal that he did affirm so And I do desire now to know â—f you Mâ—â—â— whether ever you came over with mr Helsly Dr. Oates That which I said then and that which I say now is because you should not puzzle your selves that one Mr. Hilsly did come over with us when we did Hilsly My Lord I did not L C J How can you tell Hilsly I left him at St Omers L. C. J What say you Mr. Oates Dr. Oates 'T is true mr Hisly did leave me at St. Omers because he went out a Sunday morning and I came out of the munday morning but I overtook him at Calis Hilsly my Lord that is false and I have a great many here that can prove it L. C. J. What Religion are you of Hilsly I am only to serve his Majesty L. C. J. Are you not to serve God too Hilsly I am first to serve God and then his Majesty Mr. J. Pemberton Are you a Catholick L. C. J. Are you a Roman Catholick Hilsly Yes my Lord I am Mr. J. Pemberton Be not ashamed of your Religion do not deny that your Provincial here can give you a dispensation for what you say Hilsly I hope a Roman Catholick may be a lawfull witness L. C. J. Yes I deny it not This is that you say you left him at St. Omers you must call more Witnesses to back him Master Oates sayes 't is true you left him at St. Omers but he overtook you at Calis Dr. Oates This Gentleman lost his money at Calis and Father Williams did relieve him by my means Lord Chief Just What say you to that Hilsly Why my Lord yes it is true I did lose my money there but it is nothing to the purpose for I will affirm I was never in the ship with him in all my life Dr. Oates I desire he may be asked whether he be in the degree of a Priest or not L. C. J. That would be a hard question to put to him to make him accuse himself It would bring him into danger of Treason Mr. J. Pemberton He is a Boy very fit to make a Jesuit of L. C. J. How could he then come to know this Hilsly I confess 't is true that Mr. Oates did never come over with me And I have Witnesses to prove that they saw him there next day at St. Omers and two or three several weeks after Sir Christopher Levins Mr. Oates hath another Circumstance to prove it by Dr. Oates He went away from us by the way and did not come up with us to London Hilsly I know how he understood â—his There was a Gentleman that the Witnesses will prove he was very familiar with the 2d of May that told him L. C. J. Is that Gentleman here Hilsly Here is one here to prove it L. C. J. And did he tell him how you lost your mony Hilsly Yes my Lord I suppose so L. C. J. I speak seriously I do not understand how he could come by these things Parry my Lord I can testifie if it were lawful for us o wear and prove that he was at Saint Omers that day when he says he came over L. C. J. What is your name Parry my name is William Parry L. C. J. What Country-man are you Parry I am a Flintshire man L. C. J. When was he at St. Omers Parry He was there that 25th day that day he says he came over L. C. J. Was he there all day Parry He did not stir thence all the day L. C. J. How can you tell that Parry I din'd with him that day he went into the Infirmary he did not go out of the Colledg he was sick Fenwick Mr. Parry how long did Mr. Oates stay there at St. Omers Parry He staid till after the 20th of June I am sure for on the 20th of June I know he was present by a very good circumstance he was at an Action of ours a Latine Play Dr. Oates My Lord as to the going into the Infirmary at that time I deny it My Lord if your Lordship please I will shew that this Gentleman is not only a Votary of the Jesuits but hath been one of the Sodality several years And they have Dispensations and are bound by an implicite obedience to say what the Jesuits bid them who are their Superiours L. C. J. What say you to the 20th of June the time he says
but I am confident it was not because I used to order my maid to get him his Linnen ready upon any Journey he had none now Dr. Oates My Lord he took a Chamber to go into the Exercise now my Lord he taking a Chamber on purpose for this very thing he might pretend that and come to London the while and they not know it because he was shut up for none are to come at them Winford My Lord I know not any such thing of him but this is a Rule amongst them that when they are so shut up if there be a necessary occasion to come to them about any particular business as sending them Linnen or so they have admittance to them L. C. J. Were you employ'd upon any such extraordinary matter Winford My Lord I used to go and see him and carry him his Linnen L. C. J. And can you charge your memory with that Winford Yes my Lord I can L. C. J. When the Latter end of July Winford Yes my Lord I often went to see him then when he was gone from my house L. C. J. Where was he for all the former part of July till those eight days Winford He was at my own house L. C. J. When went he first into this recluse way Winford He went from my house the 23th of July L. C. J. Was he not close when he was with you Winford No my Lord. L. C. J. And the last eight dayes you had access to him Winford Yes I had L. C. J. I ask you Are these people shut up at a certain time and there is no coming to them upon any occasion Winford My Lord most of those days I did see him indeed he was shut up but upon any kind of business as carrying of the Linnen and sometimes a pair of Gloves and other things of his own or sometimes to speak with him about business were admitted to him L. C. J. I see your Confinements are not so great as you would make them to be or he would have us think I ask you once more whether you can say that during the months of June and July it was not possible for him to make a step to London and you never the wiser Winford I am very confident he did not he was not absent long enough to do it Sir Cr. Levins You said just now you could not say positively but he might be absent for five or six days Winford I do not believe he did for he had no linnen with him which he used to have when he went to London L. C. J. But supposing he had no linnen might he not go to London and you not know of it Winford I Can't tell whether he was absent or no long enough to do it Gaven Pray my Lord let me speak as I live an innocent man will be lost else He says expresly I was in Town in July and gives this argument for it That Mr. Ashby was in Town and he met me with him L. C. J. No no Mr. Oates was not so positive he says it was either in June or July but he rather thinks it was July But Mistris might not he in the beginning of July be absent so long as a man might go to London and return again in the first three weeks of July I mean Winford My Lord I cannot charge my memory because I did not know what I should be asked and so could not recollect my self I onely say I am confident of it because he always told me when he went such a Journey that I might make provision of Linnen to sit him for it L. C. J. Your reasons are weak because he used to tell you that you might get him linnen men upon extraordinary occasions do extraordinary things so that you are not to govern your self by what he used to do in his acquainting you or you in providing his linnen This was no ordinary Errand and therefore I don't ask you whether he had linnen from you or no but you are onely to charge your self with remembring whether he could not be absent long enough out of your sight to have been such a Journey Gaven Pray my Lord give me fair play He does charge it expresly and is precise to a day He saith I was here in July after that Ashby was come to Town and before that he went out of Town And he says that Ashby came to Town in the middle of July and went out of Town about the latter end of July or beginning of August Now my Lord I say this he saying that Ashby came to Town the middle of July and staid there a fortnight and then went to the Bath that I came to Town while that he was there if I prove that I was in Staffordshire from the 15th or 16th of July to the end of the month then I shall clear my self evidently for he does in effect charge me to be here some time in that fortnights time and I prove that all the latter part of July I was in the country L. C. J. He does not charge it to a day but he says it was about a fortnight Dr. Oates Mr. Ashby came to Town in the beginning or middle of July I rather think it was the middle but I dare not upon my Oath be positive as to the time and in that time Mr. Ashby staid in Town mr Gaven came to London for I remember he said he would go and see Father Ashby who was then at Wild-house L. C. J. Prove where you were now all July Call your Witneses Gaven I prove that I was at Wolverhampton from the 23th to the end of the month L. C. J. Call your witnesses to prove where you were the beginning that can speak expressly to it Gaven My Lord I have them not here L. C. J Why then would you make us lose all this time Gaven My Lord I will tell you hear the words of an ingenuous man being as I was innocent not knowing What they intended to charge me with I in my mind run over all that I could imagine I had at any time done that they could lay hold on If I had been guilty of any thing my own conscience would have told me of it and I should have provided to have given some Answer to it but being innocent I was to ransack my memory to sum up all the passages of my life where I had been what I had said what I had done that would give them any occasion of accusing me And because I did imagine they might think I was here the 24th of April I brought witnesses for that and because I did imagine that they might speak of some Consults in April I sent up for such witnesses at my own charge as could testifie where I was then L. C J. But you have not one Protestant that testifies for you Gavau And now my Lord I humbly cast my self upon the Honour and Justice of this Honourable and Just Court to which I submit
received a verdict and a judgment there for consider what will be the consequence of it if it should be false you there arraign a verdict You should have convicted him of the falshood first Whitebread I desire the Jury to take notice that he does not stick to the Testimony that he gave then for if he does it was false Lord Chief Just They must not take notice of any thing that was done at a former Trial unless it be spoken of now Lord Chief Just North Do not call any Witnesses to prove what he said then but to disprove what he hath said now Lord Chief Just 'T is a pretty hard matter to make a Priest understand one for what I see If the Witness shall not gain credit with the Jury that he came over with Sir Thomas Preston Sir John Warner if they are satisfied by those many Witnesses ten or twelve at least that it is false they ought not to believe him but as to that Testimony they ought to believe your Witnesses but he is not presently guilty of perjury for if they should not give â—redit to Mr. Oates you must indict him and another Jury must pass upon him before he is convicted for it is one thing to be forsworn and perjured and another thing to be proved so and he is not proved to be so but by a Record for that purpose Harcourt If so be our Witnesses cannot be lookt upon as good Witnesses then there can be no Commerce abroad in any other Country Lord Chief Just They are no doubt good Witnesses till they be proved otherwise and they are left to the Jury to believe as they think fit Harcourt Now here are divers things that are brought against my self by Mr. Bedlow Mr. Prance Mr Oates and Mr Dugdale if the Witnesses that I bring because they are Roman Catholick are not good Witnesses then I am in an hard case Lord Chief Just North Look then you mistake the thing those that are not Witnesses we do not hear at all but our hearing them at all proves that we look upon them as good Witnesses But when a man is a Witness he is either of more credit or of less credit according to Circumstances and 't is a proper question to ask them Whether they are Roman Catholicks but they are Witnesses without all question Harc I say my Lord these persons are known to be every one of them very bad and flagitious persons and that every one of them have undertaken this course meerly to get a livelihood they are men of desperate fortunes they get a living by swearing fast they find that the best trade Lord Chief Just North If you have any other Witnesses we will hear them If you have have no other Witnesses then we must hear what the Kings Council reply and then it will be your turn to say what you can in your defence Gaven I have Witnesses here It is not indeed a positive Evidence but a negative Evidence and I have a Brother and a Sister in Town and upon my salvation I never came to Town but I came to their house Lord Chief Just That will signifie nothing Mr. Harcourt have you any more Witnesses if you have them pray call them Harcourt 'T is in vain to call them if they be not to be believed because they are Roman Catholicks Sir Cr. Levins 'T is a mistake we do not refuse any Witnesses because they are Roman Catholicks Lord Chief Just No we have not refused any one Point yet Lord Chief J. North If you have any more pray call them and don 't spend the time Lord Chief Justice Call a Priest or two if you will we will hear them Harcourt Mr. Oates did accuse me of paying fourscore pounds at my chamber and he did say afterwards it was at Wildhouse I have persons to justifie what was done at my own chamber and he says Mr. Ireland was by now here are Witnesses to prove that Mr. Ireland was in Staffordshire all the month of August therefore he could not be present Lord Chief Just Does he say any such thing now Mr. Just Pemberton That was urged before pray do not insist upon that it hath received a Trial. Lord Chief Just I 'le tell you what he says and I 'le ask him the question Dr. Oates it is supposed by your testimony that Mr. Ireland and Mr. Harcourt were together when this fourscore pounds was paid for the Villains that went to Windsor to murder the King Dr. Oates I never said such a word Harcourt Here it is in the Trial. Lord Chief Just I stand not by the Printed 〈…〉 is no Record in Law In short Were Mr. Ireland and Mr. Harcourt together 〈◊〉 time Dr. Oates No they were not Gaven He did then say that he did receive of Mr. Ireland the 2 d of September 20 s. that he borrowed of him now the 2 d of September he was at Boscobel Dr. Oates My Lord I was not positive as to the day but as near as I remember those were the words I said it was the second of September but whether it was the first second seventh eighth or ninth I would not be positive in it Then the Prisoners called Pendrel and his Wife and Gifford and his Wife and Gifford stood up Gifford My Lord I was here the last Sessions where I did testifie the seeing of Mr. Ireland in Staffordshire on the 24 th of August Bartholomew-day and the next day after at which time Mr. Oates said that he saw him here in Town But Mr. Oates could not be particular in every thing but at last he came to a circumstance and averred that the first or second of September he did receive Twenty shillings of Mr. Ireland in Harcourts Chamber he said it was about the Fast day Dr. Oates That was as near as I remembred Gifford Here is in Court at least six people that know it I saw him several other of those days there but these six people converted with him every day Mr. Just Pemberton How do you know al that Lord Chief Just North Come come you must not speak as to what he said in Irelands Trial. Lord Chief Just What time was it that Mr. Harcourt and Mr. Ireland conferred together about this same business Dr. Oates My Lord I do not charge Ireland but I charge Harcourt with being at Wildhouse and that there Coleman met him and that there was the greatest part of the money which was carried back to Harcourts Chamber and given to the person that was to carry it down to Windsor but Mr. Coleman was gone away before and had lest a Guiney behind him which was given to the messenger for expedition Lord. Chief Just I am mistaken if you have not testified that Ireland was in Town in August and September with Harcourt Dr. Oates Ireland took his leave of London betwixt the 8 th and the 12 th of August as to go to St. Omers Lord Chief Just Here is the matter they
should have a great deal of company if you live there and 't is hard you should charge your self to remember a particular person you did not know before Pendrell My Lord he told me his name was Ireland and several others did so too L C J You had as good have let such trivial Evidences as this alone But go on Then Mrs. Pendrell stood up L. C. J. Do you know Mr. Ireland Mrs. Pendrell I did know by report it was he L. C. J. Where did you see him in August or September Pendrell At Boscobel my Lord. L. C. J. Did you never see him before that time Mrs Pendrell No my Lord L. C. J. Do you know it was the same man that suffered Mrs. Pendrell I will take my oath of it L. C. J. How I when you never saw him before that time Mrs. Pendrell I was in Town when he dyed Then stood up Mis. Gifford L. C. J. When did you see Mr. Ireland Gifford My Lord Mr. Ireland came to Wolverhampton the 17th of August and he stayed there till the twenty sixth it was of a Munday I remember it by several circumstances L. C. J. Did you know Mr. Ireland Gifford I never saw him before L. C. J. Do you know it was the same that dyed Gifford My Lord here was my brother in Town who saw him executed and he did assure me â—e was the same And I saw him again the second of September and the 7th of September again and the 10th and the 11th My Lord he was the same man I believe because my brother told me so Mr. Gifford I saw him in the Country and I saw him executed Then another Mrs Gifford stood up Mrs. Gifford I saw him at Pancrass Fair in Staffordshire L. C. J. Was it the same man that was Executed Mrs. Gifford My Lord I cannot say that I did not see him suffer but my Sister and I were at a Window and she shew'd him to me and said that was Mr. Ireland and told me how long he had been in England L C. J. How do you know that was the man that was executed did you see him tried here Mr. Gifford Yes my Lord I did L. C. J. And that was the same man Mis. Gifford Yes It was my Lord. L C. J. When was it your Sister shew'd you him Mis. Gifford I saw him upon the seventh of September Then stood up one Mr. Bedle. L. C. J. When did you see Mr. Ireland Bedle I saw him at a place called Millage in Staffordshire the second of September L. C. J. Are you a Roman Catholick Bedle. If I must make a confession of my faith I will But I saw him there and they said it was Mr. Ireland the Jesuit L. C. J. Had you no acquaintance with him before Bedle. No. L. C. J. How do you know it is the same man that suffered Bedle. I do not know that but I suppose it was the same Turner I am accused for being at Tixall a consult in September I desire to know who saw me there for I have not been there these four years L C J Mr. Dugdale saw you there Turner What Witnesses besides L. C. J None but he for that Mr. Recorder Hath Mr. Fenwick any more Witnesses to call Fenwick My Lord I have not any Then was Captain Hill called Fenwick My Lord he can prove something against Mr Bedloe He says he lived in good repute but the Captain will tell you he was in the Marshalsey and lived a poor mean life and all the time sed upon the Basket L C J North. He was guilty of the same Treasons that you are guilty of there is his fault L C J No doubt he was a naughty man he was with you in this Plot Fenwick I can prove by Sir James Butlers Clerk that he cheated a Cutler of a Silver hilted Sword Then Sir James Butlers Clerk was called but he having more than one and the person meant not being there there could nothing be examined about that L C J North He hath had the Kings Pardon for all that Fenwick He was forced to run the Country for a many Cheats and was forced to borrow 4â— or 5 s to redeem his Boots My Lord does his Pardon make him a good Witness Then we will prove something since his Pardon L. C. J. No doubt he was bad enough while he was with you Whitebread My Lord I think I have a plain Demonstration against mr Bedloe since his Pardon he did at my last Trial say that he had nothing to say against me and now he comâ—s and gives fresh Evidence against me L. C. J. North That is an Objection that will not take away his Evidence but only goes to the lessening of the credit of it He says he was in Treaty with Mr. Reading about you and the Lords in the Tower and to beget a confidence in him that the Lords â—n the Tower should receive favour from him and come off by his means he was to be easie to you too which made him lessen his Evidence at that time This is that he â—ays the weight of it must be left to the Jury And he said at that time he had more to say at time and place convenient Whitebread There is no such thing in the Trial. He hath alledged great matters against me therefore it is evident he did falsifie his Oath for if he were to swear the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and he did not say the whole truth he is perjured if he did he can say nothing against me now L. C. J. North Mr. Whitebread you have your objection and it must be observed to the Jury You repeating of things signifie nothing Then Captain Hill stood up Fenwick Pray Sir what do you know of Mr. Bedloe Mr. Just Pemberton But don 't ask any thing before the Pardon Cap. Hill I knew him in the Marshalsey Fenwick In what condition was he there Sir Capt. Hill He was a poor man as I be and lived upon the Basket Harcourt How long ago is it since you knew him there Capt. Hill In May was twelve Month. L. C. J. That was long before his pardon But he might be an honest man for all that though he were as poor as you Are you an honest man Cap. Hill Yes I think so L. C. J. And so might he be well have you any more Prisoners No. Sir Cr. Levins Gentlemen of the Jury you have heard the Prisoners and they have had a great deal of time to make their defence but the greatest part of their defence hath been to invalidate the Testimony of Mr. Oates what is the Evidence they have brought against him they tell you first That he did not come over in that company that he says he came over with And whereas he hath sworn he was here the 24 th of April they have taken a great deal of pains by fifteen or sixteen Witnesses to prove that he was all the
him till June Sir Richard Barker No my Lord but my servants told me they had seen him in May before Whitsuntide L. C. J Did you see him in June Sir Richard Barker To the best of my remembrance it was in June Then one Butler was sworn L. C. J. Come do you know Dr. Oates Butler Yes very well Lord Ch. J How long have you known him Butler I have known him these three years before he went beyond Sea L. C. J. Come you are upon your Oath when did you see Dr. Oates and where the beginning of last Sumer Butler I saw him in the beginning of last May at my Masters house in Barbican L. C. J. Upon what occasion what are you Butler I am Sir Richard Barker's Coachman And I was making clean my coach in the Gate-house in comes Dr. Oates in May last was twelve-moneth the beginning of May with his Hair cut off close cropt to his Ears in Gray Cloaths a Gray Coat like a Shepherds Coat a York-shire Gray he asked me whether Dr. Tongue was within I told him no nevertheless he went into the house immediately came out again seemed to be very much discontented but said nothing at all to me but passed by me went away L. C. J. And did you know him at that time he spoke to you first Butler Yes my Lord because I knew him three years before L. C. J. You could have then called him by his name Butler Yes my Lord I could L. C. J. You say he came to inquire for Dr. Tongue and was discontented that he could not see him Butler He said nothing to me when he came out but passed away as one that was troubled L. C. J. Did you you see him afterwards Butler Six weeks after I saw him and then he had a long black Coat and a perwig on L. C. J. But are you sure it was the same man Butler I am upon my Oath Mr. Just Dolben Did you tell your mr of his being there the first time Butler I did tell Sir Richard Barker of him as soon as I saw him L. C. J. Sir Richard how soon did he tell you Oates was first there Sir Richard Barker It was soon after my Lord. L. C. J. Was it in May that he told you he had seen him Sir Richard Barker He told me as soon as ever I came home in May as I remember L. C. J. Did he tell you mr Oates was there by name Sir Richard Barker Yes my Lord he did And when he told me what Habit he was in I wondred at it Dr Oates There are several my Lord that did see me at that time but they are gone into the Country and I cannot have them now ready If you please now to call Mr. Smith the School-master of Islington Who was sworn Sir C. Levines Do you know Dr. Oates Mr. Smith Yes very well Sir C. Le. Pray Sir how long have you known him Mr. Smith He was my Scholar at Merchant-Taylors School where I was Usher Sir C. Lev. When did you see him the beginning of last Summer Mr. Smith I saw him in the beginning of last May that is 1678. L. C.J. Where did you see him Mr. Sm. He dined with me at my house in Islington Mr. J. Dolben What the Boys at St. Omers now are gone L. C. J. Recollect your self well By the Oath you have taken did Dr. Oates in May was twelve month dine with you Mr. Smith Yes my Lord he did and it was the first Munday in May as I remember Mr. J.D. And this you swear directly and positively Mr. S. Yes my Lord I do L. C. J. How long did he stay there Mr. Smith He staid 3 or 4 hours after And may it please you my Lord he was in a Summer suit and a coloured Ribbon a green knot upon his shoulder L. C. J. What did you discourse about Mr. Smith About his being in Spain and Flanders and his Travels L. C. J. Had you a long discourse with him Mr. Smith Yes I had L. C. J Had you nothing about the Times Mr. Smith No my Lord not a word L. C. J. Did you understand he had been turned Roman Catholick Mr. Smith I did know it Jury my Lord did mr Smith see him any other time after that Mr. S. No my Lord not in 2 months to my remembrance about the middle of August Sir Chr. Levins Call one Clay who was sworn L. C. J. Do you know Dr. Oates Mr. Clay Yes my Lord I do L. C. J. How long have you known him Mr. Clay Ever since April last was twelve-month L. C. J. Was that the first time of your Acquaintance with him Mr Clay Yes at Mr. Charles Howards L C. J Where were you there with him Mr. Clay He lived in one corner of old Arundel house L. C. J. How came you acquainted with him M. Clay Truly I met him accidentally at mr Howards-house L.C J. How came you to come there Mr. Clay I was there to visit Mr. Howards a Friend L. C. J. Were you acquainted with him Mr. Clay Yes I was with Mr. Howard and there I saw Dr. Oates L. C. J. When did you see him the second time Mr. Clay The second time I think I saw him there too L. C. J. When was that Mr. Clay That was in May. L. C. J. North. How long was that after Mr. Clay I think the other was in April L. C. J And did you see him in May Mr Clay I saw him in May too L. J. C. Clay What time of the month was it Mr. I cannot exactly speak to that but it was in that month as I remember I am morrally certain of it L. C. J. And when did you see him after May Mr. Clay I cant tell whether I saw him after May or not L. C. J. Is that the same man that you saw at Mr. Howards either in April or May Mr. Clay Yes my Lord it is the same man Sir Charles Levins Then we have done with our Evidence L. C. J. Come Gentlemen now what can you say to this They have given you â—â—w their full charge Dr. Oates my Lord I have one thing more I desire your Lordship to take notice this Gent. mr Clay is a Priest in Orders as they say L. C. J. I will not ask him that question but Mr. Clay are you a Papist Mr. Clay Yes my Lord I am so L. C. J. North. Come what say you now Mr. Whitebread to this Whitebread I have this to say first That at my last Trial when I press'd him to declare who had seen him when he said he was here in Town he could name no body not one I know afterwards he was examined at the Committee and then he could name no body neither He said he was there privately at mr Groves and we can prove that he never did lye there in his life And then he said absolutely he had not seen much Company he stay'd but 6 days
Now this good Dr. that does say he saw him here in the latter end of March or the middle of April whereas he himself says he came over with Hilsley the 24th of April L. C. J. He was Landed here the 17th of April and the Witnesses say it was the latter end of April or beginning of May. Whitebread mr Oates expresly said he stay'd here but 6 dayes when he came over to the Consult L. C. J. Why does not all this stand together Whitebread No my Lord how could this stand together His coming over the 17th and his being here a great part in May whereas he says he was but 6 days L. C. J. Perchance Dr. Oates may be precise enough but look you here these Witnesses do not so exactly to a day or two or 3 or 4 or 5 but to the latter end of April now why might they not see him the latter end of April and the beginning of May and yet stand very well with mr Oates testimony who says he was landed here about the 17th of April and staied here about 6 or 7 days How nice would you have them be in that case which because they are honest they will not be L. C. J. Nor. You make your defences to depend upon an uncertainty of time which no mortal man can ever remember besides pray observe this That Mr. Oates stands a good witness till you impeach him by a fry out of your own Schools and they go to the whole moneths of June and April and May now these all speak in contradiction to them and so mr Oates is still set an upright and good witness Whitebread They say they did see him there every day or every other day L. C. J. But sure I can as well tell who see him but once in such a month and dined with him then as any that saw him never so often but here are five Witnesses upon you in this point Whitebread The one was told by his man the other by his boy L. C. J. The Coach-man and the boy and the maid and mr Smith did see him Mr. Just Pemberton The Divine did see him and went and told the woman that he had seen him pray remember that L. C. J. Nor. Now the Evidence is concluded say what you will for your selves and then we will observe what you object upon our direction to the Jury according to our Consciences Gaven My Lord then I say this for my self we commit our selves to God Almighty We must compare the number tho ours were not sworn yet there were 16 of them boys young men that conversed with him every day and these witnesses speak but of one or two particular days One says he dined with him and another saw him in a disguise but my Lord in these very Witnesses there is an apparent contradiction because out of his own mouth ex ore tuo te judico they are contradicted He says he came over upon Sunday with Hilsley which was the 20th of April as I think and stayed here only a matter of 6 days One of the witnesses says he saw him the first Munday in May What signifie the witnesses though upon Oath that say they him in May How can he come over the 20th of April and stay but 6 days and be seen here in May Before these can be reconciled one of them must be false and then my Lord besides that which I first said there is the number of witnesses they are nothing in comparison with the number of ours And then my Lord 2 dly if we should grant that a lesser number should serve the turn because they are sworn for the King because they swear for the safety of the King whom God preserve whatsoever becomes of me and the other speak not upon their Oaths yet my Lord this does not destroy nor touch at all that evidence that is brought against him about the Rector of Leige Sir John Warner and Sir Thomas Preston And tho it be granted that all the others that spoke about mr Oates being at St. Omers be mistaken and must not be believed yet we have him still by those 6 others who have proved that he hath sworn false and I hope we shall have fair play in the Law to make the best defence we can for our lives and I humbly conceive no body must be convicted of High Treason by the Law but upon the Evidence of two sufficient witnesses Now I leave it to the Conscience Honour of the Court whether he shall be believed and counted a sufficient witness when there are so many that have proved him false in that one point And then besides all this my Lord we have here 16 at least Stafford-shire Witnesses who give you an account of mr Irelands being out of London from the 2 d. of August till 14 September so that in these two things he hath been contradicted without any Answer for he says the 12. of August he was with him when they say he was in Stafford-shire L.C. J. You have forgot the maid that saw him in London the 12 or 13. Gaven No my Lord I have not And this is it I answer to it She is a witness that only says she just saw him but did not speak to him L. C. J. She made a Courtesie to him Gaven We are talking now of seeing Ireland in August and we prove by Sir John Souththcott and all his Family who say they began their journey with him the 5th of August and stayed with him till the 19 th after the particular day that she speaks of you find 7 or 8 of them swear that they saw him all the time And therefore I would feign know whether poor mens lives shall be cast away upon such Evidence as this And then my Lord for the other thing I hope I have made a very good Plea for my self concerning the matter of July my witnesses could be positive as to the last week but for the other weekes tho they could not be positive they rather believed I was there then not but when it is urged why might not they give as good a testimony for the former weeks as for that To this I answer fully that there is a great predominant reason why they should have particular reason to swear why I should be there the last week rather than the other weeks because I was then shut up in the spiritual exercise they had a particular reason to take notice of that Then my Lord I hope you will be pleased to mind this by which I have made my Plea good that is my Lord that mr Oates testimony against me is this mr Ashby came to town about the middle of July and that he stay'd there about a fortnight and that in the time of that fortnight I came to Town and said I would go see Father Ashby and had that discourse be speaks of and so much for that And then my Lord I beseech you still to bear it in
your mind that I have been proved not to be in Town at the time of the great Consult about the Plot and indeed I was not capable of it for I was not then Professed and there could None be of that congregation about the Plot but those that were professed I could not be there in the Congregation by reason of my Age mr Harcourt here and the rest if you will ask them will tell you it they were there but upon the word of a dying man I was not there L. C. J. 'T is not positively said by Mr. Oates that you were Gaven But then my Lord he says my Name was to it which he saw in July now I prove that I was in Stafford-shire the last week of July and seeing I have witnesses to prove that I was there till the 14 th the last week it was after the 14 th that he saw me I hope my Plea is good Then my Lord I ground my Plea upon this I have studied Philosophy◠and other things but I never studied the Law and so am very ignorant of it but this is my Case I am accused by one Witness concerning one Fact and by another concerning another the one committed here at London the other in Staffordshire I desire therefore to know whether the Witness that swears the thing done in Stafford-shire in another County being joyned to the other Witness that swears what was done in London can be esteemed two witnesses according to the Law to convict me of Treason L. C.J. North Yes I l'e tell you if it were a matter of doubt it might be found specially and be argued but it is a matter that hath been already resolved in the Case of Sir Henry Vane at the Kings Bench Barr who was Indicted for levying War against the King and there one Witness proved the levying of War in one County and the other proved the levying of War in another County and so though they were but single witnesses of single Facts yet being both came up to the Indictment they were adjudged sufficient to maintain it So it is in your Case here is one witness for the proving your hand to the Paper which was for the Murther of the King and there is another witness of your discourse to the same purpose the Fact is your joining and conspiring to destroy the King and to levy War against him and both these are proved to the full of the Indictment by these witnesses and though they are to several particular Facts yet they are all Overt acts of the same Treason Gaven My Lord I have a contrary opinion to that in Serjeant Rolls L. C. J. North But this is a known Case and the Law is settled therein L. C. J. I 'le tell you what you mistake in what you say for there are two witnesses Oates and Dugdale who swear to the same Fact which is killing the King altering the Government and bringing in Popery Oates says He saw your hand to the Consult for the Murder of the King for the raising the Army and for the introducing of Popery which is a necessary consequence of change of Government Dugdale says he was with you in the Parlor at my Lord Aston's where the discourse was between him and you and others about killing the King and altering Religion Are not these two witnesses to one and the same Treason Gaven No my Lord I conceive not L. C. J. If I consult a way to kill the King here and then I go into the Country and there I consult of it with another person are not these two Witnesses to the same Treason sure they are Gaven Then my Lord my second Plea is this 〈◊〉 there be two witnesses you will grant me this ground that no man must be convicted but upon the Evidence of two Legal and credible witnesses and upon clear Evidence as the Statute since His Majesties happy Restauration does declare Now two things are required certainly to make a credible Witness and a clear Evidence as the Witness must be credible so it is as agreeable to reason that the Evidence must be plain and clear yea as clear as the light of the Sun at Mid-day Now therefore if I prove that neither the Witness is credible such as the Law requires nor the Evidence clear such as the Law looks upon as such then I ought not to be convicted by this Witness upon this Evidence L. C J. The Jury are Judges of that and therefore there I leave it L. C J. North. You argue mighty subtilly but I 'le give you this answer there must be two lawful Witnesses that is the law a man cannot be Impeached of Treason but by two lawfull Witnesses now if they be not convicted of perjury and their Testimony be not taken away but they may be heard in a Court of Justice they are lawful Witnesses now for the being credible Witnesses that is a matter that is left to the Jury but we must receive them as lawful Witnesses till they be convict of a crime that takes away their Testimony Gavan Therefore because they are left to the Jury I am satisfied and I turn my self to you Gentlemen You are to sit upon my Life and my Death as for my own part I can truly profess I am as innocent as the Child unborn and this Gentleman Mr. Whitebread knows I was not capable of being at the Consult being not of age Now I must leave my self to the Jury and will leave it to their judgments whether these two Witnesses can be esteemed credible Witnesses for to make credible Witnesses there is required honesty of life and truth in their Testimony for no man can be a good Witness that is not an honest man nor that hath carryed himself so that he is not to be believed As to the honesty of Mr. Oates his life you have heard that he was disgusted by the Jesuites esteemed not a person of that diligence or fidelity to be intrusted by them He was turned out of St. Omers Lord Chief Just Does that prove any dishonesty in Mr. Oates Gavan No but I speak to his Credibility Lord Chief Just Speak plain how does it impeach Mr. Oates his Evidence that the Jesuits did not like him Gaven It might be a ground of hatred amnd alice in him against them and then Gentlemen I desire you to consider that other thing That we have proved him to speak false in his Testimony about Sir John Warner and Sir Tho. Preston and all the business of the 12th of August concerning Mr. Irelands being here the 12th of August who by sixteen Witnesses is proved to have been all the while in Staffordshire And though he was not convicted of Perjury before which might have easily been done as I have shewn to the whole world now I appeal to the Honour and Conscience of the Jury whether all these proofs ought not to make this Witness to be deemed an incredible Witness And pray Gentlemen hear me
Where the Commissions Is it possible such a thing should be and no sign of it for a whole year almost there is no reason brought amongst them all but saying and swearing and that I will stand by Whitebread I thank God I don't look like a fighting-man nor I never did but who can think that I should be so mad when I had committed such a secret to him to beat him as he says 'T is strange that such a Plot should be discovered wherein so many Persons of Quality Honour and Reputation are said to be concerned and yet no footsteps of it appear and none of them as my Lord Arundel my Lord Bellasis should never divulge such a Plot I would feign know whether such a thing be probable but I commend my self to God Almighty and the Jury Harcourt My Lord I have only this to say I have lived to this age which is 70 years and I never knew any man that could say I was accused of the thing in the world for which I should be brought before any Magistrate and it is strange that after so many years I should come to be arraigned and condemned for a Crime of the highest Nature and there is no reason brought against me nor any of the rest for the proof of what is alledged nor do they who are the Witnesses against us deserve at all any Credit They only affirm such and such things without any reason to perswade you to believe them and it is easie to say and so it is to swear it So that all I have to say is this since a Negative cannot be proved I hope innocency will find some that shall defend it I leave my self to the Bench for the Law is the defence of innocency If they did bring any Evidence besides that which is down right positive swearing without any reason or concurrent reason to confirm it it were something Fenwick And besides all this to think how these men have lived before time is worth reflection and considering As for Bedloe he hath been a very ill man the world knows it Lord Chief Just Have you proved it Can you shew any Record of it Mr. Just Pemberton Turner Have you any thing to say You have had your time Fenwick You will find that Nemo repente sit nequissimus No man arrives at the highest degrees of impiety at first men grow extreamly wicked by degrees But let us see if they can blame our lives or any thing that we have done at any time before we prove and all the world knows what they have been and how scandalously they have lived Gaven Our Witnesses are to be regarded for their number and for their innocency especially since they give no reason nor convincing arguments for what they do affirm Lord Chief Just We would hear you and we have heard you very long but it must not be permitted you to go over the same things again and again Lord Chief Baron Hath Turner any thing to say Turner All that I have to say my Lord is this To ask whether it be reasonable that Bedloe and Oates should be looked upon as good Witnesses that these Persons who have been such scandalous people should be admitted to an Oath who are debarred from the Sacrament for according to the Church of England no man that is publickly scandalous can be admitted to the Sacrament Lord Chief Just But you prove nothing Turner I can prove it first by Evidence of one Hastings Lord Chief Just Call him But he appeared not The Lord Chief Justice Directions to the Jury against Whitebread c. L. C. J. Gentlemen of the Jury Here hath been a very long Evidence and a very confused one and you cannot expect that it should be wholly Repeated to you For it is almost impossible for any one to remember it neither would I if I could because a great deal of it is impertinent and vainly to be repeated And besides many things have been said over and over again to no purpose But I will observe to you as well as I can what Testimonies there are against each particular Man of them and that I do look upon to be very material And I leave it to you to judge and consider how far the Evidence is Credible and how far it is Substantial Against Mr. Whitebread you have the Testimony of three Oates Dugdale and Bedlow Against Mr. Fenwick you have the Testimony of Oates Bedlow and Praunce Against Harcourt you have Oates Dugdale Bedlow and Praunce You have against Gaven Dugdale and Oates and against Turner Dugdale and Oates So that to the two last you have two three to the two first and four to Harcourt Now the matter that they have sworn hath been all tending to one thing the Murder of the King the Advancing of Popery and the Suppression of the Protestant Religion That is the Thing that all the Evidence does drive at For Dugdale for ought we can perceive he hath been upon the matter a Stranger to Oates and Bedlow and I do not find that he had any correspondence with or knowledge of them at the time he charges Mr Harcourt and Mr. Gaven And he charges them with the very self same things viz. the consulting the death of the King and Advancement of Popery And they have several instances of the Facts as their several consultations how they met together and where or at what place And Dugdale tells you of a letter that he found wherein Whitebread gave charge for the entertainment of good stout Fellows No matter for Gentlemen so they were Resolute And so they have several Mediums to prove one and the same Thing Mr. Fenwick sayes to all this Here is nothing against us but Talking and Swearing But for that he hath been told if it were possible for him to learn that all Testimony is but Talking and Swearing For all Things all Men's lives and fortunes are determined by an Oath and an Oath is by talking by kissing the Book and calling God to Witness to the Truth of what is said That is the Essence of an Oath and those are the Ceremonies The kissing the Book and Speaking is the accidental Form the substance is Calling God to Witness Therefore What a vain thing is it in Mr. Fenwick to seem to Tryumph by saying There is nothing against us but Talking and Swearing There is nothing against them but Evidence and proof of Men upon Oath And their Reasons the Truth is are very Trifles They defend their Lives as they do their Religion weak Arguments and fallacious Reasons For that long Business that Mr. Gaven hath undertaken to say against Mr. Oates and what they all insist upon viz. the Number of their Witnesses which were sixteen amounts to this to disprove mr Oates that it could not be true what he sayes That he should be present here at a Consult the Twenty-Fourth of April because they have brought sixteen from St. Omers to prove That he was there all April
my Lord the most of the time he remained there I acknowledge he was in the Infirmary L. C. J. How long Hall Four or five days or thereabouts L. C. J. Was he in the Colledge in April Hall Yes my Lord all along L. C. J. And all May Hall Yes my Lord I saw him all May I laid his Table neer the door at a particular place where he always sate Jury My Lord we desire to know what employment he is of now L. C. J. Hall what made you come into England Hall My Lord I had not my health there L. C J. How long had you lived there Hall Seven years and upwards L. C. J And when began you to be sick Hall I had not my health at Christmas in December 1677. L. C. J. What employment have you here for you had a good place there Hall I live at home with my Father and my friends L. C. J. What is your Father where lives hâ— Hall He is a Gentleman he lives in Radnorshire L. C. J. When came you to London Hall I came to England in July 1678. L. C. J. But you say you Father is in Radnorshire when came you here to Lnndon Hall I have been here about a moneth I was summoned up as a Witness Then one Dallison was called who did not appear and one Manshall appearing but speaking French and no English and an Interpreter not being ready he was for the present by the consent of the Prisoners set aside And then stood up one Cook L. C J. When came you from St. Omers Cooke In January Last L. C. J. And where have you been ever since Cooke Here in Town my Lord. L. C. J. Does your Father live here in Town Cooke No my Lord. L. C. J. Do your friends live here Cooke No my Lord. L. C. J. You came over upon this occasion did you Cookâ— Yes my Lord. L. C. J. When did you see Mr. Oates there Cooke I saw him in last June L C J And was he there in July Cooke No my Lord L C J What time did he go away Cooke The 23 d the Eve of the Feast of St Iohn Baptist L C J How do you know Cooke I made him some Clothes L C J Are you a Taylor Cooke Yes L C J How often did you see him Cooke Every day L C J. How came he to keep you company Cooke I could not chuse but see him sometimes I saw him 20 times a day L. C J. Where was he in April Cooke He was there all April L.C. J. He might be absent one day or so and you see him not Cooke He used to come twice a week to my shop for things L. C. J. Was he there all May Cooke Yes L. C. J. You say you saw him every other day Cooke Yes my Lord. Sir Chr. Levins Why Sir there are 150 Scholars there how can you tell he was there so well Mr. J. Pemberton Can you tell every one that was there all that time Cooke No I can't tell every one that was there but he was particular enough Lord Chief Just Did you live in Town as a Taylor or in the Colledge Cook In the Colledge Mr. Belwood Was Mr. Oates at Watton any part of the time Cooke Yes he was Mr. Belwood What day what month Cooke I cannot justly say the day but it was in April Lord Châ—ef Just How long was he absent Cooke Only one night as it shall please you Mr. Just Pemberton Heark you how came you to take notice that he was at Watton one night Cooke It was talked of among all the Scholars Lord Chief Just How can you remember what was said a year ago of one man Cooke It was reported all over the House Gaven In one place of his Narrative he says he came over with Sir John Warner and Sir Thomas Preston Lord Chief Just North That is nothing to the purpose If you can contradict him in any thing that hath been sworn here do Gaven If we can prove him a perjured man at any time we do our business L. C. J. You should have proved him a perjur'd man before How can we prove one Cause in another and then too he had been provided to make his defence Can he come prepared to make good every thing that he hath said in his life Dr. Oates Can I come to make good my Evidence against all I have done in my life Lord Chief Just Look you if so be he hath forsworn himself in any former Tryal if that would appear you have all the reason to make use of it but you have not taken the right way you should have indicted him and tryed him for perjury in the former Trial and then he could not have been heard at all in this Whitebread We were all Prisoners close shut up Lord Chief Justice We know you have a party strong enough and willing enough to convict him of Perjury if they could but look you Gentlemen here is the thing if you can give such Evidence as will satisfie the Jury that he was absent all April and all May you have said a great thing His Evidence will be quite contradicted Whitebread He says he came over with Sir Thomas Preston and Sir John Warner and others Lord Chief Just He says nothing of it now Dr. Oates May it please you my Lord I will answer it if you please Lord Chief Just They desire to know who came over with you when you came over in April Dr. Oates I will tell you and to convince the Court that in neither of the Trials I did contradict my self I say I did name some persons at one time that I did not name at another There came over with me the Rector of Liege Sir John Warner Father Williams Father Marish Father Warner Sir Tho. Preston and others Lord Chief Just This is deaâ—ing plainly with you Then stood up one Bartlett Lord Chief Just What Countrey-man are you Bartlett I am a Dutch man Lord Chief Just Can you speak English Bartlett Yes a little Lord Chief Just When came you from Saint Omers Bartlett I came from Saint Omers the 23 of May in the year 1678. new stile Gaven My Lord this man is come over to testifie that Oates is perjured in a circumstance about Sir John Warner Lord Chief Just He is to contradict Mr. Oates testimony for he says he came over with Sir John Warner and you say Sir John did not come at that time Gaven Yes Lord Chief Just Well when did Sir John Warner come over from Saint Omers Bartlett Whither Lord Chief Just Into England Bartlett Sir John Warner hath not been in England all May and all the month of April L. C. J. Where was he Bartlett He was at Watton I did see him there L. C. J. Were you there all that time Bartlett Yes I was Lord Ch. Just North Were you there all May Bartlet Yes I was L C J. When did you come over into England last Bartlett The