Your Grace and my Lords do observe that this man Saxon has testified that about the 3 d or 4 th of June last for there he fixed the time this man as an extraordinary Person that was fit to be trusted in an Affair of this Nature being confided in and recommended by my Lord Brandon was sent for by me to Mere where he found me and Sir Robert Cotton and Mr. Offley who did employ him to transact the matter of stirring up the Countrey in order to a rising and joyning with the late Duke of Monmouth Now I will first prove to your Lordship in general that Sir Robert Cotton was not in Cheshire for Many weeks nay several months both before and after the time he speaks of And next in particular I shall prove as to the time that he has pitched upon by divers Persons that saw Sir Robert Cotton here then in London and give you particular reasons for it First to prove that he was here in Town so long in general I shall produce his Servants that saw him every day Call Billing who appear'd Pray Sir will you give an account what time Sir Robert Cotton came to London when he went out of London and whether you were frequently in his Company and saw him here Billing My Lord to the best of my remembrance Sir Robert Cotton came to Town the 10 th of April last and I was with him here in Town at his house at the Horse-Ferry till the latter end of July and saw him constantly more than once or twice every day for that time I used to come into his Chamber most Mornings before he was up I used to buy in his Provision for his House I saw him in Bed or heard he was in Bed every night L. H. Stew. Did you belong to him Billing I am his Servant L. Delamere He lived with him in the House all the while he says Billing Then about the latter end of July he went out of Town for 3 days to Epsom and then he came to Town again and continued here till the time he was committed to the Tower and never was in Cheshire since the 6 th of April last L. H. Stew. How come you to remember so punctually when he came to Town and that he staid here all the while Billing I know it by my Accompts for the Journey up and by the Tradesmens Bills for the Provision of the House ever since L. H. Stew. In what Capacity did you serve Sir Robert Cotton Billing I bought in all the Provision for his House and paid the Tradesmens Bills L. H. Stew. Have you any Papers in your Pocket that will point to any particular time Billing I have not the Tradesmens Bills here My Lord nor my own Accompts but I have look'd upon them and by that I am sure what I have testified is true L. H. Stew. Who do you call next My Lord L. Delamere Call Margaret Davis who appeared Pray will you give an account to my Lord what time Sir Robert Cotton came to Town and to the best of your remembrance when he went out of Town again Davis He came to Town upon the 10 th of April last or thereabouts and he has not been out of Town any night since except it were in August L. H. Stew. What day did he come to Town do you say Davis About the 10 th of April L. H. Stew. And you say he did not go out of Town till August Davis No My Lord. L. H. Stew. How do you know this Davis I was constantly in the House with him L. H. Stew. But how came you to be so exact as to the time Davis I saw him continually every day L. H. Stew. How came you to see him Davis I live with him in the House L. H. Stew. Pray recollect your self as to the time that he went out of Town for I perceive the other man says it was the latter end of July Davis It was in August certainly My Lord. L. Delamere My Lord the other witness saith it was the latter end of July and that may be very well consistent neither of them speaking to a day L. H. Stew. Well are you sure he was in Town all the Month of June Davis Yes he was L. H. Stew. Well who do you call next L. Delamere Mrs. Sidney Lane who appeared L. H. Stew. What do you ask this Gentlewoman L. Delamere I examine her to the same point and I question not but I shall make it out to your Grace and my Lords none of us all three that he has named were there at that time L. H. Stew. I shall be very glad of it My Lord L. Delamere Pray Mrs. Lane will you give an account when it was Sir Robert Cotton came to Town and how long he staid here Mrs. Lane He came to Town the April before the Coronation and never lay out of Town I am sure all those 3 Months of April May and June after he came to Town L. Delamere This Gentlewoman My Lord lived in the same House with him Mrs. Lane I did so My Lord and saw him every night and morning L. Delamare If your Grace please I have 2 or 3 more witnesses to the same purpose but I would spare their Lordships time if this point be fully cleared L. H. Stew. Pray My Lord do not abridge your self for I know my Lords will not grudge the time but are very desirous you should have full Liberty in what is pertinent L. Delamere Then I desire Charles Reeves may be called who appeared I pray My Lord that this Man may give an account what time it was Sir Robert Cotton came to Town and how long he stay'd here Reeves If it please your Lordship he was in Town before the Coronation and I saw him here every day from that time till after July once or twice every day L. H. Stew. Did you belong to him Reeves Yes and I do now L. H. Stew. In what Capacity Friend Reeves My Lord I am his Footman L. Delamere May it please your Grace the next Witness I have to produce is Mr. Ashburnham being he cannot easily remove I beg he may be heard in the place where he is L. H. Stew. Ay let him speak where he is and let him speak out L. Delamere Pray Sir will you please to recollect your self what time you saw Sir Robert Cotton and where the last Summer Ashburnham My Lord I being at Sir Robert Cotton's House at Westminster he desired me to present a Petition of his to the House of Commons for him and it was about the latter end of the time allotted for Petitions I cannot exactly tell what day of the week or Month it was but I saw him that day I presented his Petition and I saw him at the Committee of Elections 2 or 3 days after L. Delamere Sir William Twisden I desire may be also heard what he has to say to the same point Who answered to the same effect L.
I DO appoint Dorman Newman to Print the Tryal of Henry Baron Delamere and order that no other Person presume to Print the same March 20. 1685 6 Jeffreys Canc. THE TRYAL OF HENRY Baron Delamere FOR HIGH-TREASON In WESTMINSTER-HALL the 14 th Day of January 1685. Before the Right Honourable George Lord Jeffreys Baron of Wemm Lord High Chancellour of England Constituted Lord High Steward on that Occasion On which Day after a full Hearing the Lord Delamere was Acquitted from all Matters laid to his Charge LONDON Printed for Dorman Newman at the Kings Arms in the Poultry MDCLXXXVI THE TRYAL OF HENRY Baron of Delamere Die Jovis xiv to Januarii 1685. Cl. of Cr. SErgeant at Arms Make Proclamation Serj. at Arm. O yes O yes O yes My Lord High Steward of England his Grace doth straightly charge and command all manner of persons to keep silence and to give ear to the King's Majesty's Commission to his Grace my Lord High Steward of England upon pain of Imprisonment Then the Commission was read his Grace and all the Peers standing up bare-headed Then the Staff being carried between Garter King at Arms and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod was with three reverences delivered upon the knee to his Grace and by him re-delivered to the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod to hold during the Service Cl. of Cr. Serjeant at Arms Make Proclamation Serg. at Arm. O yes His Grace my Lord High Steward of England doth straightly charge and command all manner of persons here present except Peers Privy Councellors and the reverend Judges now assistant to be uncovered Cl. of Cr. Make Proclamation Serg. at Arms. O Yes My Lord High Steward of England his Grace straightly chargeth and commandeth all Justices Commissioners and all and every other person and persons to whom any Writ or Precept has been directed for the certifying of any Indictment or Record before his Grace my Lord High Steward of England That they do certifie and bring in the same forthwith according to the Tenor of the same Writ and Precept to them or any of them directed upon Pain and Peril shall fall thereon Then Sir Edward Lutwich one of his Majesty's Sergeants at Law and Chief Justice of Chester delivered in his Writ and Return at the Clerks Table The Writ of Certiorari and the Return thereof were read in haec verba L. H. Steward Call the Lieutenant of the Tower to return his Precept and bring his Prisoner to the Bar. Cl. of Cr. Make proclamation Serg. at Arms. Lieutenant of the Tower of London return thy Writ and Precept to thee directed together with the Body of Henry Baron of Delamere thy Prisoner forthwith upon Pain and Peril shall fall thereon The Prisoner was brought to the Bar by the Lieutenant of the Tower The Writ and Return thereof together with his Grace's Precept and the Return thereof were read in haec verba Cl. of Cr. Make proclamation Serg. at Arms. Sir Roger Harsnet Knight Sergeant at Arms to our Sovereign Lord the King return the Precept to thee directed together with the Names of all the Lords and Noblemen of this Realm of England Peers of Henry Baron of Delamere by thee summoned forthwith upon Pain and Peril shall fall thereon The Sergeant at Arms delivered in his Precept and Return at the Clerks Table L. H. Steward Read the Precept and the Return They were read in haec verba Cl. of Cr. Make an O Yes Serg. at Arms. O Yes All Dukes Earls Viscounts and Barons of this Realm of England Peers of Henry Baron of Delamere who by Commandment of my Lord High Steward of England His Grace were summoned to appear here this Day and are now present in Court answer to your Names upon Pain and Perii will fall thereon The Peers summoned were called over and those that appeared standing up uncovered answered to their Names each making a Reverence to the Lord High Steward Cl. of Cr. Laurence Earl of Rochester Lord High Treasurer of England L. H. Treas Here. Cl. of Cr. Robert Earl of Sunderland Lord President of his Majesty's Privy Council Lord Presid Here. Cl. of Cr. Henry Duke of Norfolk Earl Marshal of England D. of Norf. Here. Cl. of Cr. James Duke of Ormond Lord Steward of his Majesty's Houshold He did not appear Cl. of Cr. Charles Duke of Somerset D. of Som. Here. Cl. of Cr. Christopher Duke of Albermarle He did not appear Cl. of Cr. Henry Duke of Grafton D. of Graft Here. Cl. of the Cr. Henry Duke of Beaufort Lord President of Wales D. of Beauf. Here. Cl. of Cr. John Earl of Mulgrave Lord Chamberlain of his Majesty's Houshold E. of Mulg Here. Cl. of Cr. Aubery Earl of Oxford E. of Oxf. Here. Cl. of Cr. Charles Earl of Shrewsbury E. of Shrews Here. Cl. of Cr. Theophilus Earl of Huntingdon E. of Hunt Here. Cl. of Cr. Thomas Earl of Pembroke E. of Pemb. Here. Cl. of Cr. John Earl of Bridgwater E. of Bridgw Here. Cl. of Cr. Henry Earl of Peterborow E. of Peterb Here. Cl. of Cr. Robert Earl of Scarsdale E. of Scarsd Here. Cl. of Cr. William Earl of Craven E. of Craven Here. Cl. of Cr. Richard Earl of Burlington He did not appear Cl. of Cr. Louis Earl of Feversham E. of Feversh Here. Cl. of Cr. George Earl of Berkeley E. of Berk. Here. Cl. of Cr. Daniel Earl of Nottingham E. of Notting Here. Cl. of Cr. Thomas Earl of Plimouth E. of Plim Here. Cl. of Cr. Thomas Viscount Falconberge L. Falconberge Here. Cl. of Cr. Francis Viscount Newport Treasurer of his Majesty's Houshold L. Newport Here. Cl. of Cr. Robert Lord Ferrers L. Ferrers Here. Cl. of Cr. Vere Essex Lord Cromwell L. Cromwell Here. Cl. of Cr. William Lord Maynard Comptroller of his Majesty's Houshold L. Maynard Here. Cl. of Cr. George Lord Dartmouth Master General of his Majesty's Ordnance L. Dartmouth Here. Cl. of Cr. Sidney Lord Godolphin L. Godolphin Here. Cl. of Cr. John Lord Churchill L. Churchill Here. Then his Grace the Lord High Steward addressed himself to the Lord Delamere the Prisoner at the Bar in this Manner L. H. Steward My Lord Delamere the King being acquainted that you stand accused of High Treason not by common Report or Hearsay but by a Bill of Indictment found against you by Gentlemen of great Quality and known Integrity within the County Palatine of Chester the place of your Residence has thought it necessary in Tenderness to you as well as Justice to himself to order you a speedy Tryal My Lord if you know your self innocent in the name of God do not despond for you may be assured of a fair and patient hearing and in your proper time a free Liberty to make your full Defence and I am sure you cannot but be well convinced that my Noble Lords that are here your Peers to try you will be as desirous and ready to acquit you if you appear to be innocent as they will to
not to be found That very Night my Lords this same Brand and Disney they meet this Noble Lord my Lord Delamere at the Coffee-House and give him an Account of the Messages And as soon as ever he had received the Message upon that Twenty-Seventh of May at Ten of the Clock at Night does my Lord Delamere dispatch out of Town with only one Servant to attend him and Two other Friends that he had pick't up or appointed to meet him and go with him With all these Badges of Plot and Design does my Lord Delamere set out that Night It was the same Night that Jones came to Town It was late at Night He changed his Name and went by the Name of Brown He chose to go all the By-roads and would not keep the High-common-road and went with great speed as We cannot but presume according to the Message delivered by Jones on purpose to repair into Cheshire And if your Lordships please to observe You will find several remarkable Instances of Plot and Contrivance in the matter First That a Nobleman and one of 10 considerable a Character in his Country as my Lord Delamere should make such haste out of Town with 10 small an Equipage as but one Servant Then That he should go so late at Night Again That he should change his Name and That should prove to be a Name not casually taken up as the first Name he could think of next his own but a Name of distinction that he was known by among all his own Party For all the Communications between the Confederates and Him were managed as to Him under the Name of Brown By that Name several of the late Duke of Monmouth's Trayterous Declarations were sent for which were to be sent to him or by him into Cheshire And that alone with Submission my Lords would be a shrewd Circumstance of Suspicion that a Noble Lord such an one as my Lord Delamere should assume the Name of a Commoner and post out of Town so ill accompanied in a Disguise at that time of Night especially the Parliament being then Sitting as really it was But besides all this Circumstantial Evidence We shall prove by Positive Testimony what the hasty Business was that made my Lord undertake this Journey in this manner For having notice of the Duke of Monmouth's Intention to Land speedily in England when he comes into Cheshire he actually sets about the Work to put that County in a forwardness to assist in the Rebellion endeavours to stir up the People to joyn with him and acquaints One that he imployed in that Affair with the whole Design that he was engaged to raise so many Thousand Men and so much Money to be ready by such a Day Nor does my Lord rest here But after the Duke of Monmouth was Landed in the West to corrupt the Minds of the People We shall prove what Discourses he had and these will testifie his Inclinations to the Cause concerning the great Victories he had obtained over the King's Forces and how he applauded his Conquests My Lords We shall plainly shew You all this that I have opened in plain Proof And then We shall submit it to your Lordships Judgments Whether this Noble Peer be Not Guilty as he has Pleaded to his Indictment Lord H. Steward Call your Witnesses Mr. Attorney Who do You begin with Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord Howard of Escrick We desire he may be first sworn Which was done Lord H. Steward Well What do You ask my Lord Howard Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord I call You to give an Account what You know of a Design of an Insurrection that was to have been and in what Parts and what share Cheshire was to have had in it in the late King's Time Lord H. Steward You hear the Question What say You to it my Lord Lord Howard My Lord I am to direct my self to speak to what was done in the late King's Time For as to that Noble Lord at the Barr I have nothing to say against him Lord H. Steward My Lord Howard If I apprehend Mr. Attorney aright You are not called as a particular Witness against my Lord Delamere but only to give an Account what was agreed upon in any Consultations where You were present in the late KING's Time about a Conspiracy for an Insurrection Lord Howard If so my Lord then I am called not to be an Evidence against my Lord Delamere but against my Self that is to repeat what I have often delivered at several Tryals in the Courts of Justice and which I must always repeat with Shame and Confusion for my Guilt as I cannot but always reflect upon it with Sorrow and Horror But if it be for the Service of His Majesty and this Honourable Court for me so to do I shall endeavour to comply with it and repeat it as well as I can by the Assistance of a broken Memory it being an Account of Things done several Years past and from a Memory interrupted by such Accidents as are very well known and as have disabled me to make a more distinct and particular Relation before so great an Auditory My Lords I suppose it will be expected I should begin my Account with the Occasion and Ground and the Time when those Things happened Lord H. Steward Take your own Method my Lord. Lord Howard Truly my Lord I am not able to fix the particular Time unless You will give me leave to reckon the Years by the Sheriffs of London as the Romans used to do theirs by their Consuls for I have no other means of computing the exact Time Lord H. Steward Pray my Lord tell the Times as near as you can and use what Helps for your Memory you think best Lord Howard My Lords It was in that Year when Mr. Shute and Mr. Pilkington were Sheriffs for the City of London And at that Time it is well known how great Heats did arise upon the Contests that were in the City about Election of Officers for the Year ensuing Mr. Attorney General May it please your Grace My Lord Delamere seems to be faint with standing If your Grace please a Chair may be provided for my Lord to sit in Lord H. Steward Ay by all means Let a Chair be provided for my Lord to sit down Go on my Lord. Lord Howard My Lord I was saying that the Contests about the disputed Election of Sheriffs had occasioned such heats in the City of London and other Places that it was even beyond the common expressions of discontent I knew nothing of any particular Design there was in hand till about six weeks after when Captain Walcot came to me a Person I had known some time before and upon discourse acquainted me that he had found out that there were some persons engaged in a considerable Action that was near its execution and that in order to it he had had notice given him to make preparation and thereupon he had thought fit for that reason
I do therefore tell us where it is Hope My Lord my house is at the Three Tunns in Coventry Lord H. Steward Well go on tell what thou knowest Hope Some time after that he came down Post again and a little after he went up again Post and he told me he went down another way and after that the 21 st of June he came down Post again this was upon a Sunday the Sunday Sennight after the Duke of Monmouth landed Mr. Att. Gen. Had he any Servant with him at that time Hope Yes he had Lord H. Steward Had he a Servant with him every time he came down Post Hope No he came over I remember without any servant only with a Post Boy Lord H. Steward Well and what Discourse had you with him at that or any other time Hope My Lord that Sunday the 21 st of June my house was very full of people to enquire news it being in the time of the Rebellion every one was desirous to know how things went and there was one Ingram in the house that came to me and asked what news from London for they say saith he that the Duke of Albemarle is killed and his Hearse brought to Westminster Abby thereupon I knowing my Lord Delamere was come from London I went into the Room to my Lord and desired to know of his Lordship what was the news in London he told me he was little at Court and therefore could not tell much News I then asked him what he heard concerning the Duke of Albemarle said I they say here he is killed saith my Lord I am sorry for it if it be so but I fear it is too true but if he be killed it is said he is killed by his own Party I asked him how he told me a Party of the Duke of Albemarle's men were commanded to Fire at the Duke of Monmouth's men but instead of shooting at them they shot into the Ground upon which they were very severely handled by their Officers which so inraged them that they fired upon them and killed several of them and amongst others the Duke of Albemarle was killed and he told me the Duke of Monmouth had several Field Pieces and Arms sufficient for near 30000 men Mr. Att. General Pray did he shew you any Places in any Maps Hope There was in the Room Adams's Map of England and my Lord Delamere shewed me which way Monmouth went and pointed out such and such Towns that he was possessed of and withal said he did fear there would be many bloody Noses before the Business was at an end Mr. Att. General How many times do you think my Lord did ride post to and fro Hope About five times I believe L. H. Steward Within what space of time Hope From the Sunday Sev'night before the Coronation to the Twenty first of June following L. H. Steward Have you done with him Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. General Yes my Lord. L. Delamere My Lord High Steward with your Grace's leave may I ask this Witness any Questions L. H. Steward Yes my Lord what you please L. Delamere 'Pray Did I go down post four or five times do you say in that space Hope My Lord I say you did go so often backward and forward L. Delamere What time was that you say I came without any Servant only with a Post-boy Hope I cannot tell L. H. Steward Will your Lordship ask him any more Questions L. Delamere No my Lord. Mr. Att. General Then my Lord we desire Thomas Saxon may be sworn which was done 'Pray Mr. Saxon will you give an account to his Grace and my Lords what you know of my Lord Delamere the Prisoner at the Bar concerning any Insurrection or Rebellion designed by him in Cheshire and when Saxon. At the beginning of June last I was sent for to Mere my Lord Delamere's House in Cheshire where when I came I was conveyed into a lower Room where were my Lord Delamere Sir Robert Cotton and Mr. Crew Offleys and they told me I was recommended to them by my Lord Brandon who had said I was an honest useful man and they hoped I would prove so For they had sent to the Duke of Monmouth who was in Holland and received an answer by one Jones and assoon as they had an answer my Lord Delamere came away post into the Country under another Name and by being conveyed through Moorfields came down to raise Ten thousand men for the Duke of Monmouth in Cheshire by the first of June but now they had considered of it and found they could not raise them till Midsummer for they must have time to raise a Sum of money forty thousand pound in that Country to maintain the men They asked me whether I would not undertake to carry a Message to the Duke of Monmouth I told them I would and I had there given me eleven Guineas and five pounds in Silver for my Journy and I did hire a Horse afterwards and did deliver my Message to the Duke of Monmouth L. H. Steward When was this do you say Saxon. This was the beginning of June L. H. Steward What day of June Saxon. I cannot tell to a day what day in June it was for I did not set it down but I believe it was the third or fourth of June L. H. Steward How came you to be recommended by my Lord Brandon to these Gentlemen Were you acquainted with my Lord Brandon Saxon. I was acquainted with him The first time I was with him was at Over the next time was at my Lord 's own House Mr. Att. General Ay 'pray tell my Lord how you came acquainted with my Lord Brandon Saxon. Upon the Monday in Easter Week last being at Over I was sent for by my Lord Brandon to drink a glass of Ale and smoke a pipe of Tobacco with him and when I came thither my Lord told me he had a desire to be acquainted with me so we drank a considerable while and he was attended at that time with one Hollingshead and one Mr. Lee and after we had drank pretty smartly and after some discourse Lee and Hollingshead went forth being called out to speak with some body about an Estate or a Tenement that they were concerned in After they were gone out my Lord Brandon began to discourse about the Elections of Parliament-men how unfairly they had been carried he said he stood both for the Town and County of Lancaster but had lost it by an unfair Election for the other Party had made Seven-score Freemen in one night in the Town and by that means had carried it against him which had exasperated the Country so much that they were resolved to make it an occasion of raising up the Country in Arms under pretence of maintaining the Christian English Liberties and that they had a design to send for the Duke of Monmouth and make him King and that they must make use of such men as me that were men of Interest
am sure L. Delamere The next Witness that I shall call is Peter Hough who Appeared L. H. Steward There is your Witness What say you to him L. Delamere Pray acquaint his Grace and my Lords what you know of Saxon's cheating you in the making of a Bond. Hough My Lord he had six Pound ten Shillings in money and ten Shillings in work done for which he was to give me a Bond and hereof he made the Bond himself I thought it had been right and took it but about the time when the money was become due I looked upon it and it proved to be but for 6 l. L. H. Steward What should it have been for Hough It should have been for six Pounds ten Shillings in money and ten Shillings in work L. H. Steward Did not he give thee a Bond for all thy money Hough It should have been so but I never had it L. H. Steward Had you never the money Hough No I never had the money L. H. Steward What did he say the Bond should be made for Hough For seven Pounds L. H. Steward What say you to it Saxon Saxon. My Lord I had five Pounds ten Shillings of him in money and ten Shillings in work for which I gave him Bond there were the Witnesses names at it the Bond was fairly read and I sealed it and he took it with him L. H. Steward Ay but he says it was to be for seven Pounds Saxon. I never had any more of him than six Pounds and for that I gave him Bond. L. H. Steward Was the Bond read to you Hough He read it himself and he made it himself L. H. Steward How did he read it What did you apprehend by his reading it was made for Hough I took it as he read it to be made for seven Pounds Saxon. He may say what he pleases but I had no more of him but six Pounds I was to give Bond for no more L. H. Steward Now the Witnesses to this Bond would be very proper to be produced here For if he did make the Bond but for six Pounds when the Debt that was to be secured was seven Pounds that is a sign that he had an intention to cheat him of the twenty Shillings L. H. Delamere That shews what a kind of man he is L. H. Steward But this is but Witness against Witness for he says he owed no more and was to make the Bond for no more Hough It was as I tell you I assure you my Lord. Saxon. I had no more of him than six Pounds Hough Did not I ask you afterwards one Question more and told you it was a Cheat and you said it should be mended L. H. Steward Well my Lords have heard it they will consider what weight to lay upon it L. Delamere 'Pray call Edward Wilkinson who appeared L. H. Steward What do you ask him L. Delamere Wilkinson 'pray tell my Lords how Saxon dealt with you about your Horse Wilkinson My Lord he hired a Horse of me for three days and was to give me twelve pence a day but he never came again nor had I any satisfaction for my Horse but I lost my Horse by the Bargain and my money too L. H. Steward How long ago was it since he hired your Horse Wilkinson My Lord it was the Twenty third of June to the best of my remembrance L. H. Stew. Did not he agree with you for 12 d. a day as long as he used your Horse Wilkinson I expected to have my Horse in 3 days time L. H. Stew. But mind my Question Did you agree that he should have him but 3 days or was he to give you 12 d. a day for so long as he kept him out Wilkinson I was to have 12 d. a day for him L. H. Stew. What as long as he used him or only for 3 days Wilkinson He did agree with me to bring him again in 3 days L. H. Stew. I perceive by the time he rid into the Rebellion with this Horse and he was a very Knave for so doing upon my Conscience L. Delamere Call William Wright who came in Pray will you give my Lords an account what Reputation this Thomas Saxon is of in his Countrey Wright My Lord this Thomas Saxon came to live at Sambige and I had some dealings with him as well as other men and I never found him to perfect his word in any thing L. H. Stew. What didst thou never find him Wright To perfect his word in any thing My Lord. L. H. Stew. That is make good his word I suppose but that is your Cheshire Phrase Wright Whereupon I met with him one Evening after Evening Prayer and said to him Thomas Saxon if I cared no more for keeping my word than thou do'st it were no matter if I were hang'd for to be sure if thy mouth open thy tongue lyes and he turn'd away from me and would not answer me a word and since that he owed me some money and when I asked him for it he told me if I did trouble him for the Money it should be the worse for me whereof all the Town knows as well as I that I cannot set him forth in words as bad as he is L. H. Stew. Can you instance in particular Friend of any Fraud Cheat or Cozenage that he has been guilty of for it is not what the Town says but what can be proved that we must take for Evidence the Town that thou livest in may reckon thee but an idle Fellow and yet thou may'st be a very honest man for all that Wright I trust My Lord I am so and shall always prove so L. H. Stew. Well what dost thou know ill of him Wright He did not keep his word with me L. H. Stew. Wherein dost thou mean Wright As to Money he owed me L. H. Stew. How much Money did he owe thee Wright He owed me a deal L. H. Stew. How much dost thou call a deal Wright I cannot tell how much exactly L. H. Stew. Does he owe thee any thing now Wright Yes but I cannot justly tell how much L. H. Stew. My Lord Delamere I would be very unwilling to interrupt the method of your defence or abridge you in your Evidence but really this objection that you endeavour to prove by this Witness is not at all as I conceive for your Lordships Service For it is a very hard case if any one that owes money and does not pay it shall for that very reason lose the credit of his Testimony this rather gives a countenance to what he says that you know no other Objections but such trivial ones to make against him L. Delamere Then If your Grace please I will make short work of it and spare your time I shall pass over this part of my Evidence though I have many more witnesses to this point and come to other matters to matter of Fact to encounter this positive proof that has been given against me
Delamere Mr. Heveningham is my next Witness My Lord who I desire that he would please to give your Grace and my Lords an account when he remembers to have seen Sir Robert Cotton in Town Mr. Heveningham My Lord It was a more than ordinary occasion that makes me remember the thing and the time so particularly I was engaged in a dispute in the House of Commons about my own Election and that was upon the 2 d of June then was a Case debated in the House whether a Mayor that was elected a Burgesse for any Town could sit upon his own Return it was then carried he should not and the next day which was the third of June another question came on whether Sir Joseph Williamson was duly elected and returned and I remember at that time I was walking with Sir Robert Cotton in the Court of Requests and Mr. Neal came out of the House and told me that it was carried by five that he was not and then Sir Robert Cotton was with me L. H. Stew. So you speak as to the 2 d and 3 d of June Mr. Heveningham My Lord had it not been upon this particular occasion I could not have remembred the time so exactly L. H. Stew. You give a very good token for your remembrance and my Lords hear what you have said L. Delamere Will your Grace please that the Clerk of the House of Commons may be called and examined to the Journal of that House when it was Sir Robert Cotton preferred his Petition and that will fix the time as to what Mr. Ashburnham and Sir William Twisden have said L. H. Stew. Call whom you please My Lord. L. Delamere It seems he is not ready but I hope I have given your Grace and my Lords sufficient satisfaction that Sir Robert Cotton was not there at that time that this fellow speaks of I will now go on and prove Mr. Offley was not there neither and the first Witness I call to that shall be Sir Willoughby Aston whom I desire your Grace will be pleased to hear speak in his place L. H. Stew. Well what do you say Sir Willoughby Sir W. Aston My Lord I desire to be guided in what account I shall give by the Questions that shall be asked L. H. Stew. What is it that you ask Sir Willoughby Aston L. Delamere Pray can you remember Sir Willoughby what time it was and whether about the latter end of May last or when that you know of Mr. Offley's being at your House and how long he stayed there Sir W. Aston I can give an account of his Motion for ten days together but that perhaps may be more than is necessary L. H. Stew. It will not be improper Sir for you to give as exact and partiular account as you can of the times Sir W. Aston If your Grace please I will do it L. H. Stew. Pray do Sir Sir W. Aston Upon the 26 th of May which was Tuesday at night Mr. Offley and his Lady and some of their Relations came to my House upon Wednesday the 27 th of May Mr. Offley was so sick that he kept his Chamber and his Bed all day upon the 28 th of May which was Thursday he was so ill that he kept his Chamber all day and rose about five at night and I then waited upon him and sate with him 3 hours in his dressing room on Friday the 29 th of May he went to Church that day was employed a great part in Devotion upon the 30 th of May which was Saturday Mr. Offley and his Lady went and a great part of my Family went with them to one Mr. Pickerings six miles off my house there they dined and returned at night to my House upon Sunday the 31 th of May I have a particular remark whereby I remember that Mr. Offley went to visit Mr. Needham upon Monday the first of June Mrs. Offley and the Women of my Family went to visit my Lady Brooks but Mr. Offley not being well staid at home On Tuesday the second of June he was still at my house there was a great deal of Company there and he was in the Company all the day long On Wednesday the 3 d I fell sick in the Morning about 4 of the Clock but Mr. Offley was in the house all the morning but in the afternoon he went to make a visit two miles from my house at a place called the Ware-house where the Ships ride at Anchor and upon Thursday morning which was the 4 th of June he went from my House Now if your Lordship desire to know any thing about any particular time about this Compass I 'le give you the best account I can L. H. Stew. Can you tell where he went when he went from your House Sir W. Aston He went directly home as he said L. H. Stew. Did you hear at any time that he stay'd by the way between his going from you and coming to his own House Sir W. Aston My Son went with him two or three Miles of his way and I heard that at Middle-wich he staid to speak with some of the Militia Officers that he met with by the way there at a Muster and afterwards went directly home L. H. Stew. Pray is the usual way from his house to yours by my Lord Delamere's Sir W. Aston No My Lord directly another way L. H. Stew. Will you ask Sir Willoughby Aston any more Questions L. Delamere No My Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. If your Grace please I would ask Sir Willoughby Aston one question Sir I desire to know how far it is from your house to my Lord Delamere's Sir W. Aston Sir It is about 11 Miles L. H. Stew. 11 Miles you say Sir Sir W. Aston Yes My Lord 11 of those Northern miles L. Delamere My Lord I have some more witnesses to examine to this point L. H. Stew. Call whom you please My Lord L. Delamere I call Mr. Gregory next My Lord who appeared Pray give my Lord an account when Mr. Offley went from Sir Willoughby Aston's last Summer and whither he went Gregory My Lord my Master went from Sir Willoughby Aston's House L. H. Stew. Who is your Master Gregory Mr. Offley My Lord. It was upon the 4 th of June at 9 of the Clock in the morning and went from thence to Middlewich and was at home at his own house about 5 of the Clock in the Evening as I was told for I did not go directly home with him L. H. Stew. Was he at Mere that day at my Lord Delamere's Gregory No not that I know of I was not with him L. Delamere Then pray call Thomas Kidd who appeared Pray were you that day with Mr. Offley when he went from Sir Willoughby Aston's Kidd Yes My Lord I was L. Delamere What day was it Kidd The 4 th of June L. Delamere Then whither went he Kidd He went the direct Road to his own House I never parted from him nor did he
care that no injury be done to the Law and truly I take this Plea to be altogether dilatory and I suppose your Lordship is satisfied of it and will not insist upon it L. Delamere If your Grace please It was alledged and agreed in the Case of my Lord of Bristol that the Cause of a Peer in time of Parliament properly belong'd only to the House of Lords And that which possessed the House of Lords of his Case was as I apprehend no more than is in my Case a petition upon the account of being absent and there the Lords claim the cognizance of the whole Cause and nothing was done but in the House of Lords And as to the Instances your Grace has mentioned of my Lord Cornwallis and there was another of them my Lord Morley this Question was never under Debate in those Cases therefore I suppose they cannot be admitted as Precedents L. H. Steward But my Lord it would have been an Errour in the whole Proceedings if this Court had not Jurisdiction And sure the Judges who are always called to assist in such Cases and who in matters of life even in the Cases of common persons are so tender and careful that there be no irregularity in the Proceedings would not have let things pass in that manner had they been erroneous L. Delamere My Lord I think no other Precedents are produced but those two and there the Question was never debated L. H. Steward I only put you in mind of those that were lately within memory but no question of it there are a great many more Instances to be given Mr. Attor Gen. I pray your Grace's Judgment to over-rule the Plea and that my Lord may plead in chief L. Delamere I hope your Grace will be pleased to assign me Councel to put my Plea in Form and that I may have time for it that they may be heard to make a solemn Argument in Law L. H. Steward My Lord if you insist upon it and think it worth the while to have Councel heard we will hear them L. Delamere I submit it to your Grace I only offer it that I may not be wanting to the support of the Peers Priviledges I assure your Grace I speak not to put off the Cause for I am willing to come to my Tryal and I have reason so to be for I question not but to make my innocence appear L. H. Steward My Lord I tell you what my opinion of the Plea is but if you insist upon it to have your Councel heard I will hear them L. Delamere I have no Councel here if your Grace please to give me time to send for them and that they may prepare to argue it Mr. Attor Gen. No my Lord If your Grace will hear Councel I for the King must pray that it may be done presently for a Plea to the Jurisdiction is never favoured nor is the party to be allowed time to maintain it but he must be ready at the time it is offered L. Delamere Pray My Lord how was it done in the Case of Fitz-Harris his Plea was a Plea to the Jurisdiction and he had four days allowed him to put his Plea in form and to instruct his Councel L. H. Steward I am not able at present to remember what was done in such or such a particular Case But according to the general method and course of Law the Plea to the Jurisdiction is not favoured nor time allowed to it but the party must be ready to maintain it presently Mr. Attorn Gen. But with Submission my Lord That Case of Fitz Harris is nothing to this Noble Lord's Case neither There was a formal Plea put in in Writing and drawn up in Latine and a formal Demurrer joined and thereupon I did take time to speak to it But with your Grace's favour by the Law the Prisoner must be always ready to make good his Plea if he will oust the Court of their Jurisdiction L. H. Steward Mr. Attorney If my Lord Delamere does insist upon having his Councel heard it is not fit for me to refuse hearing what they can say Mr. Attor Gen. But that must be presently then My Lord. L. Delamere It is my Duty my Lord to submit to what your Grace and my noble Lords shall determine I would insist upon nothing that should offend your Grace or them Mr. Att. Gen. If your Grace pleases You are the only Judge in this Case in Matters of Law For these Noble Lords the Peers are only Tryers of the Fact Therefore I appeal to your Grace's Judgment and pray for the King that this Plea may be over-ruled it being vitious and naught both in Form and Substance Lord H. Steward My Lord Delamere I must acquaint you That according to the Constitution of this Court Matters of Law are determined by Me as the sole Judge while I have the Honour to act under this Commission But if your Lordship insist upon it to have your Councel heard God forbid that I should deny it You. I will hear what your Councel will say and afterwards I will according to the best of my Understanding deliver my Judgment Lord Delamere My Lord I have never had any Councel assigned me Lord H. Steward My Lord If You have any Councel ready we will Hear them Lord Delamere If your Grace please to assign me Councel and give me Time to send for them and them Time to prepare I will obey your Grace's Directions but I could have none here ready because none were assigned me Lord H. Steward My Lord You cannot by the Course of Law have Councel allowed You in the Case of a Capital Crime till such time as the Court where You are called to Answer is apprized that there is some Matter of Law in your Case that may need Councel to be heard to Inform their Judgment and which they may think convenient to hear Councel to For if in case any Prisoner at the Barr shall before-hand be allowed to have Councel to start frivolous Objections such as this and we all know that there are some who will be easily prevailed with to endeavour to pick Holes where there are none and to offer Matters foreign from the things whereof the Party stands accused and upon the Prisoner's bare Request Councel must be heard to every trivial Point the Courts of Law would never be at an end in any Tryal but some dilatory Matter or other would be found to retard the Proceedings But it does not consist with the Grandeur of the Court nor your Lordship's Interest to let such a frivolous Plea interrupt your Lordship's Tryal However if your Lordship has Councel ready I will not refuse to hear them Lord Delamere My Lord I hope the Priviledge of the Peers of England is not frivolous I assure your Grace I do not offer this Matter as if I thought it more conducing to my Interest than my Tryal now No my Lord it is not for my self but for the
an entire Confidence in your Resolution Fidelity and good Affections to Him that You will not by reason of the Prisoner's Quality and nearness to You as being a Peer of this Realm acquit him if he shall appear to be Guilty My Lords I have one thing further to mind your Lordship 's of That according to the usual Forms of Proceedings in these Cases if your Lordship's have any Questions to propound wherein You would be satisfied as to any Matter either of Fact or Law your Lordships will be pleased to put those Questions to Me and I shall take care to give your Lordships the best Satisfaction I can Lord Delamere My Lord High Steward I beg the Favour of your Grace I may have One to write for me Lord H. Steward Ay by all means Let my Lord have whom he pleases to write for him Then Sir Thomas Jenner One of His Majesty's Serjeants at Law and Recorder of the City of London opened the Indictment thus Mr. Recorder May it please your Grace my Lord High Steward of England and You my Noble Lords the Peers of the Prisoner at the Barr Henry Baron of Delamere the Prisoner at the Barr stands indicted for that He as a False Traytor against the most Illustrious and most Excellent Prince our-Soveraign Lord the King that now is not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance the Fourteenth Day of April last at Meer in the County of Chester did maliciously Conspire with other False Traytors to the Jurors unknown the Death and Deposing of the King And for the better and more effectual fulfilling of those his Treasons the said Fourteenth Day of April at Meer afore-said did Maliciously and Trayterously Assemble Consult and Agree with Charles Gerrard Esq and other False Traytors to Raise great Summs of Money and procure Numbers of Armed Men to make a Rebellion against the King and the City and Castle of Chester to seize with the Magazines there And that afterwards the Twenty-Seventh Day of May last he took a Journey from London to Meer aforesaid to accomplish his Treasonable Intentions And further That upon the Fourth Day of June in further Prosecution of his Trayterous Purposes at Meer aforesaid he did encite divers Subjects of our Lord the King to joyn with him and other false Traytors in his Treason And this is laid to be against the Duty of his Allegiance against the Peace of our Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in that Case made and provided To this Indictment may it please your Grace and the rest of these Noble Lords my Lord Delamere the Prisoner at the Barr has Pleaded Not Guilty and for his Tryal has put himself upon his Peers We shall therefore call our Witnesses for the King and if We prove him Guilty We do not question but your Lordships will find him so Mr. Att. Gen. May it please your Grace my Lord High Steward of England and You my Noble Lords the Peers My Lord Delamere the Prisoner at the Barr stands Indicted for Conspiring the Death of His Majesty and in order thereunto to Raise a Rebellion in the Kingdom My Lords In proving this Charge upon him we crave Leave to give your Grace and your Lordships some short Account by Witnesses that we have here of a former Design that was previous to this Matter for which this Noble Lord stands here accused And We shall not trouble your Grace and your Lordships with any long Evidence because it has received many solemn and repeated Tryals and as to the Proof of it has been Confirmed by as many Verdicts But We do it rather to give some Account as an Introduction to a Material Evidence by shewing That Cheshire which was the Province of this Noble Lord was One of the Stages where that Rebellion was principally to be acted and that preparatory to it great Riotous Assemblies and Tumultuous Gatherings of the People were set on foot by the Conspirators We shall then shew my Lords That after the late Duke of Monmouth the Head of the Conspiracy went beyond Sea especially after the Death of the late King frequent Messages and Intercourse of Correspondency were sent and held between him and the rest of his Accomplices abroad and their Fellow Conspirators here at home And particularly We shall prove That a little before the Rebels came over last Summer into the West the Duke of Monmouth did dispatch one Jones who was one of the most considerable Agents in this Contrivance to come from Holland into England to let his Friends know that though he had intended to go into Scotland and begin his Work there yet now his Resolutions were for England where he hoped his Friends would be prepared for him And with this Message and Resolution of his Jones was to acquaint some Lords who they were the Witness will tell your Lordships but among others this Noble Lord the Prisoner was one And to acquaint them besides That he would immediately set sayl for England whither he would come so soon as he could get That he had a Design to have Landed in Cheshire where he expected to be most readily receiv'd but finding That inconvenient they should have notice Four or Five Days before-hand of the Place of his Landing which he intended should be in the West And among the Directions that Jones had to give to those Lords one was That they should immediately repair into Cheshire there to wait for the News These Instructions Jones had given him in Writing but Sealed up with an Injunction not to open them till he came to Sea and then he was to peruse that Writing and deliver his Message according to his Instructions And in that Writing was the Name of this Noble Lord as one that was principally relyed on to carry on the Rebellion in Cheshire And We shall give You an Account That the late Duke of Monmouth did look upon Cheshire as one of his main Supports and upon my Lord Delamere as a Principal Assistant There My Lords This Message was Jones to communicate to Captain Mathews and Captain Mathews was to transmit it to this Noble Lord and the other Persons that were concern'd with him Jones arrived with this Message here in England upon the Twenty-Seventh of May And I must beg your Lordships to observe the Time particularly But Captain Mathews to whom he was directed was not to be found nor Major Wildman to whom in the Absence of Captain Mathews he was to apply himself as You will hear more fully from the Witness 's own Mouth Thereupon he sends for one Disney a Name which your Lordships cannot but know he being since Executed for Treason and one Brand whom your Lordships will likewise hear of and they meet with this same Jones who communicates his Message to them and they undertake to deliver it to the Persons concern'd Captain Mathews being out of Town and Major Wildman
came to Lyme and landed there and did afterwards order his March so that he might most conveniently meet with his Cheshire Friends that is towards Gloucester and so to get Gloucester Bridg that thereby gaining the command of the River of Severn those of Cheshire if they did as was expected make an Insurrection at the same time they might easily join together In pursuance of this design we came to Keinsham Bridg and there a party of the Kings Horse set upon us and we took some Prisoners and thereupon thought it advisable not to let the Kings Army join together but to go back and engage those that were already come together and that was the reason we did not go over the Bridg. Mr. Att. Gen. Do you know any thing of Jones's coming into Holland and for what Mr. Wade My Lord I had forgot that a little before Crags going last away Jones came over and his business was to know why we staid so long for the Duke of Monmouth's Friends in England had expected him long before and he was dispatch'd away quickly to acquaint them the Duke was coming Mr. Att. Gen. Who was he sent to to acquaint with his coming VVade To Major Wildman he was directed to Major Wildman Mr. Att. Gen. Who else were to be acquainted with it Wade Among the rest my Lord Delamere my Lord Macclesfield and my Lord Brandon were to be acquainted that he was coming and expected that they should raise what Forces they could to assist him Lord H. Stew. Will my Lord Delamere ask him any Questions Lord Delamere No my Lord I never saw his Face before tat I know of Lord H. Stew. Who do you go to next Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. Next we call Richard Goodenough Swear him which was done That which I would know of you Mr. Goodenough is Whether Jones was sent of my Message and about what Goodenough My Lord I was beyond Sea with the Duke of Monmouth and Mr. Jones was sent among other persons to my Lord Delamere to give him notice that he should be ready against the time that the Duke should land and take care to secure himself that he might not be seized here in Town for we were apprehensive such a thing would be attempted Mr. Att. Gen. What directions were given him what Lords to go to Goodenough My Lord we were informed in Holland that my Lord Delamere was one of those Lords that had promised to draw his Sword in his behalf Mr. Att. Gen. Had you any discourse with the Duke of Monmouth about it at any time Goodenough Yes I have discoursed with the Duke of Monmouth several times Lord H. Steward Ay what did he say to you about it Goodenough My Lord he said among other things that he hoped my Lord Delamere would not break his promise with him Lord H. Stew. My Lord Delamere will you ask him any Questions Lord Delamere No my Lord I never saw his Face before that I know of I will assure you Lord H. Stew. That is pretty strange so famous an Under-Sheriff of London and Middlesex as he was Mr. Att. Gen. Then swear Jones which was done Pray will you give an account what Message you received from the Duke of Monmouth upon your going over into Holland and to whom you were to deliver it and what became of it Jones My Lord I went to Holland about the latter end of April last my going as I have acquainted his Majesty and the Council was not only about this Affair for I had other business that called me thither which I shall not now take up your time or trouble you with repeating of but having some knowledg from Mr. Disney that there were some intentions of doing something tho it was communicated to me but very darkly and therefore that little I did know made me the willinger to go for Holland so soon as I did but before I went I had a mind to understand something more of the design and therefore the night before I went I came to Mr. Disney and acquainted him with my intended Journey Mr. Disney did perswade me against it thinking that I had gone upon this account but I told him the occasion which he partly knew why I went but withal I told him I did intend to see the Duke of Monmouth and if he had any Message that he would have delivered to him I would deliver it very safely he told me all the Message I should deliver to the Duke of Monmouth if I saw him was to desire him to keep to the last Conclusion which he would find in a Letter that had been sent to him and that if he had not yet received the Letter it was to come by the Crop-hair'd Merchant or the Crop-ear'd Merchant I cannot say which but I think it was the Crop-hair'd I asked him what that Message was lest the Letter should miscarry for I told him if I should go to the Duke of Monmouth and refer him to a Letter wherein a Message was to be brought him which he was to keep to and that Letter should miscarry I should in effect bring no message at all to him my Lord thereupon he told me that I should acquaint the Duke of Monmouth that his Friends in England would not by any means have him come for England but that he should continue where he was or if he thought good to go for Scotland they approved of it this is the sum of what he said to me as near as I can remember When I came to Amsterdam there was one Mr 〈◊〉 that was kill'd at Philips Norton went with me to the Duke of Monmouth's and when I came to him I acquainted him as Mr. Disney appointed me to do that there was such a letter sent by such a person and that such a Message was included in it My Lord he was in a great passion I know not how to express it and seemed to be very much troubled and did reflect very much upon Major Wildman and said that was Wildman's work and he said as I think that was the word he used Wildman was a Villain or to that purpose but withal he said it was too late to send such a message now and that he was resolved to come for England and he would make VVildman hang with him or fight for it with him that Wildman did think by tying his own purse he should tye his hand but he should find it should not be so and some other words of the like nature he used but this is the substance of what he said he gave some account what preparations had been made he said Money was very short and he had been fain to pawn all he had to raise what Money was raised upon his own charge He asked me if I did think to return to England shortly I told him if he had any service to command me for England I had some little business to do at Rotterdam which I would dispatch and then I
he came to me immediately I told him I had seen the Duke and desired that he would help me to the speech of Captain Matthews he told me he was out of Town too then I desired to speak with Major Wildman he told me he was gone out of Town too then I told him I must deliver my Message to him and I told him this message as I have told your Lordships before and therefore left it to him to convey it to the knowledg of those Lords that were concerned he did seem to be unwilling and told me he did not know how to communicate it to those Lords and asked me why I would not deliver the Message my self I told him I did ask the Duke of Monmouth that very question whether I might and he had forbid me and ordered me to deliver it either to Captan Matthews or to Major Wildman and since they were absent I knew not any to communicate it to but only to him in order to their having notice of it He told me he would do what he could Mr. Att. Gen. Pray who were present when you had this Discourse with Disney Jones There was none present but himself then for it was the first time that I spoke with him after I came from Holland I told him there was a Post to go to receive intelligence which should bring notice of his landing 24 Hours before it could be known at Whitehall and therefore it were fit they should be in a readiness he did scruple at it and said he did not know where to get any one that could convey the Message to them but he would do what he could and concluded to meet at night in Smithfield and he did so and there were two Persons with him Mr. Crag and Mr. Lisle and another I think his name was Brand and he took me and Brand aside and did ask me where was the place that the Post was to go I told him where and then he did discourse of the Dukes coming over but I mentioned not any thing of the Lords but only to Disney and after an hours talk or thereabouts we parted I saw Mr. Disney once afterwards but what he did with the Message I cannot tell he gave me no account of it I did indeed before I went out of Town see him at the Half-Moon Tavern in 〈◊〉 I went out of Town and met the Duke of Monmouth at Lyme where he Landed and when I came to him I told him what I had done with my Message and how it happened that I could not deliver it to the persons that he had ordered the Duke told me he was satisfied that I had done what I could but seemed to be troubled that Matthews was out of Town And this is the sum of what passed in my knowledg as near as I can remember Mr. Att. Gen. Had you no discourse with Disney what he had done with the Message when you met at Smithfield Jones No because those men were Strangers to me and I had never seen them before Mr. Att. Gen. But afterwards had you no discourse with Brand nor Lisle about it Jones No not at all Brand I never spoke but once with and Lisle would not own that he was the man that was there Lord H. Stew. Have you any more questions to ask him Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. No my Lord. Lord H. Stew. My Lord Delamere will your Lordship ask him any questions Lord Delamere No my Lord I never saw his face before this time that I know of in my life Lord H. Stew. Then who do you call next Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. The next Witness that we call my Lord is Story Who was sworn Lord H. Stew. Well what do you ask him Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Story pray will you give an account what notice you had of Jones's message and what was done upon it and what discourse you had with any body concerning my Lord Delamere the Prisoner at the Bar and with whom Story My Lord I had notice of it by one that lived at Bishopsgate who told me the 28 th of May last that Mr. Jones was returned home from Holland upon a message from the Duke of Monmouth and that he had agreed to go to Taunton and there he expected Mr. Dare or Mr. Williams to bring an account that the Duke was landed and he said that Mr. Jones's message was delivered to Disney in the absence of Captain Matthews who was out of Town that after Disney had received the message from Jones he went and had some discourse with my Lord Delamere and that that night my Lord Delamere went out of Town with two Friends and went a by-way through Enfield Chase towards Hatfield Mr. Att. Gen. Pray when was it you went out of Town Story Story The 28 th of May. Mr. Att. Gen. Who went out of Town with you Story No body but I overtook Mr. Brand that Evening Lord H. Stew. Pray repeat what it was he acquainted you with Story He told me that the day before Jones was returned home with a message from Holland which message was to be delivered to Captain Matthews but in his absence Disney received it and that Evening after he had discoursed with my Lord Delamere my Lord that night went out of Town and two Friends of mine he said went with him and did convey him away by a by-way through Enfield Chase towards Hatfield Lord H. Stew. Have you any more questions to ask him Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Sir had you any discourse with the late Duke of Monmouth at Shepton Mallet and about what Lord H. Stew. By the way Friend where is that Brand that you speak of Story He is kill'd I did not see him dye but he is said to be kill'd at Keinsham Bridg. Mr. Att. Gen. Pray what discourse had you with the late Duke of Monmouth about the Prisoner at the Bar Story I heard the late Duke of Monmouth say at Shepton Mallet that his great dependance was upon my Lord Delamere and his friends in Cheshire but he was afraid they had failed him or betray'd him or some such word he used and he said he could have been supply'd otherwise but that he had a dependance upon them Mr. Att. Gen. Pray what Office had you under the Duke of Monmouth Story I was Commissary General Mr. Att. Gen. Well we have done with you L d. H. St. Will you ask him any questions my Lord Delamere Ld. Del. If your Grace please I have a question to ask him L d. H. St. Ay with all my heart what question you will my Lord. Ld. Del. My Lord I desire to know whether he knows one Saxon. St. What Saxon does your L shp mean one that was in the Army Lord Delamere Yes one Thomas Saxon. Story Yes my Lord I knew him a Prisoner in Dorchester Prison where I was a Prisoner my self Ld. H. St. Has your Lordship nothing more to ask him but that Lord. Delamere No my
Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Now my Lord we call some persons to prove that that very night when Jones came to Town my Lord Delamere the Prisoner at the Bar goes out of Town without any servant changes his name and goes a by-way Swear Vaux and Edlin Vaux was sworn Lord H. Stew. Well what says this man Mr. Att. Gen. Pray give my Lords an account whether you went out of Town with my Lord Delamere and when Vaux My Lord perhaps I may not remember the very words that I gave my Evidence in before but I will repeat the Substance Mr. Att. Gen. It is not so long ago but you may easily recollect your self pray what day was it that my L. Delamere sent for you Vaux The 26 th day of May and I went out of Town the 27 th Mr. Att. Gen. You are upon your Oath and you must remember you are sworn to tell the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth Vaux Sir I shall take care to do it as far as I can remember Mr. Att. Gen. Whither was it that he sent for you Vaux To the Rummer Tavern in Queenstreet and the next day I went out of Town with him Mr. Att. Gen. What day of the Month did you go out of Town Vaux It was the 27 th day of May. Mr. Att. Gen. What time of the night was it you went out of London Vaux It was about 9 or 10 of the Clock Mr. Att. Gen. What name did my Lord Delamere then go by Vaux He went by the name of Brown Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord I would acquaint your Grace that this is an unwilling Witness and we are forc'd to pump all out of him by questions Vaux I do tell you the truth of all that I know Mr. Att. Gen. How far did you ride that night Vaux To Hoddesden Mr. Att. Gen. What time did you get thither Vaux About 12 of the Clock Mr. Att. Gen. Whither did you go then Va. We went to Hitchen and I return'd back again the next day Mr. Att. Gen. Whither was my Lord Delamere going then Vaux To see his Son that was sick in the Countrey Lord H. Stew. What he told you so did he Vaux Yes my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. What other Company went with you Vaux Two Gentlemen the one I knew th' other I did not Mr. Att. Gen. What was the name of him you did know Vaux It was Edlin Mr. Att. Gen. Pray was that the direct Road to Cheshire that you went Vaux We made it our way Mr. Att. Gen. You made it your way but I ask you whether it be the best way Vaux It is the freest Rode from dust Mr. Att. Gen. But I ask you a plain Question upon your Oath is it the best way into Cheshire Vaux Truly my Lord I do not know that Lord H. Stew. Pray who gave you directions to call my Lord Delamere by the name of Brown Vaux Himself my Lord. L. H. Stew. Was that the first time my Lord went by that name as you know of Vaux Yes my Lord I never heard that he was called by that name till that time L. Del. I was called by the name of Brown at that time and I will give your Grace an account by and by of the reason of it L. H. Stew. Has your Lordship any Question to ask him L. Del. No my Lord. L. H. Stew. Then go on to the next Mr. Att. Gen. Our next Witness is Edlin pray swear him which was done Pray will you give my Lords and the Court an account whither you went with my Lord Delamere out of Town and when Edlin The 27 th of May last I was at the Custom-House and there came Mr. Vaux the Gentleman that was here last who told me he was going out of Town as far as Hitchen and asked me to go along with him he said he was to go that evening I asked him what time he intended to return he told me he was resolved to return the next day I told him then I would go along with him and we appointed the place of meeting to be at the Bell-Inn in Coleman-Street when I came there he said there was a friend that was going along with him one Mr. Brown we went as far as Hoddesden that night Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Mr. Edlin will you look upon that Gentleman that stands at the Bar is that he that went by the name of Brown Edlin Yes my Lord that is he Mr. Att. Gen. Well then what time did you set out Edlin It was very near nine of the Clock Mr. Att. Gen. Pray when was it that Vaux met you at the Custom-House Edlin It was about 10 of the Clock in the morning L. H. Stew. Pray did you hear or know upon the Road whither he was going Edlin My Lord I did never see my Lord Delamere before in my life L. H. Stew. But did not he tell you as he went along whither he was going Ed. He said he was going for Cheshire to see a sick Child Mr. Att. Gen. You say Sir that you went first for Hoddesden Ed. We did so my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Sir how long were you riding that from the Bell in Coleman-Street to Hoddesden Ed. it was 3 hours I believe or about 3 hours and a half Mr. Att. Gen. Then you rid hard out of Town Ed. My Lord it was towards 9 of the Clock when we got on Horse-back and it was about 12 or a little more when we came to Hoddesden L. H. Stew. Well Mr Attorney is that all you have to ask him Mr. Att. Gen. Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any questions my Lord Delamere Lord Delamere No my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Then my Lord to confirm this Evidence and to explain it I shall call you a couple of Witnesses to prove that this Gentleman went by the name of Brown in the Cant of those that were engaged in this business that the name was known as his name by all the Party and called so constantly in their Letters and Messages Swear Tracey Paunceford and Thomas Babington Which was done Lord H. Stew. Which will you begin with first Mr. Att. Gen. We begin with Paunceford Pray will you give his Grace and these Lords an account what discourse you heard at Disneys concerning the Prisoner at the Bar and what name he was usually called by in your meetings Paunce My Lord I shall give as just an account as I can I was acquainted with Mr. Disney and the 14 th of June I was at his house Lord H. Stew. What June do you mean Paunce Last June my Lord and there were three more besides one Joshua Lock and a Country Gentleman that I have understood since to be one Hooper and there was one Halsey and being there Lock staid for some Declarations Lord H. Stew. What Declarations were those you speak of Paunce The Declarations of the late Duke of Monmouth Lord H. Stew. Were they Printed at that
one day to another for that is clear you may and has been practised for that is the Case of the Earl of Somerset and his Wife But the Question is Whether after the Prisoner is upon his Tryall and the Evidence for the King is given the Lords being as we may term it Charged with the Prisoner the Peers Tryers may separate for a time which is the consequent of an Adjournment to another day And my Lord the Judges presume to acquaint your Grace that this is a matter wholly new to them and that they know not upon recollection of all that they can remember to have read that either this matter was done or questioned whether it might or might not be done in any Case My Lord If the matter had been formerly done or been brought into question in any Case where it had received a determination and reported in any of our Books of Law then it would have been our duty to contribute all our Reading and Experience for the satisfaction of this great Court But being as it is a new question and a question that not only concerns the particular Case of this Noble Lord at the Barr but is to be a president in all Cases of the like nature for the future All we can do is to acquaint your Grace and my Noble Lords what the Law is in the inferiour Courts in Cases of the like nature and the Reason of the Law in those points and then leave the Jurisdiction of this Court to its proper Judgment My Lord in the first place where the Tryal is by a Jury there the Law is clear the Jury once charged can never be discharged till they have given their Verdict this is clear and the reason of that is for fear of Corruption and tampering with the Jury an Officer is sworn to keep the Jury together without permitting them to separate or any one to converse with them for no man knows what may happen for though the Law requires honest men should be returned upon Juryes and without a known Objection are presumed to be probi legales homines yet they are weak men and perhaps may be wrought upon by undue Applications This My Lord it is said fails in this Case because the Lords that are to try a Peer are Persons of that great Integrity and Honour that there is not the least presumption of their being to be prevailed upon in any such way and for that reason because of the confidence which the Law reposes and justly in Persons of their Quality they are not sworn as common ordinary Jurors are but are charged and deliver their Verdict upon Honour My Lord in the Case of a Tryal of a Peer in Parliament as your Grace was pleased to observe and as is very well known by late Experience there the matter has been Adjourned till another day and for divers days the Evidence being given in several Parcells and yet there the danger is as great if any were to be supposed of tampering But whether the Lords being Judges in that Case and in this Case only in the nature of a Jury makes the difference though in both Cases it is but like a Verdict for they give their Opinions Seriatim whether the Peer tryed be Guilty or not Guilty that they submit to your Graces consideration Upon the whole matter My Lord whether their being Judges in the one and not in the other instance alters the Case or whether the Reason of Law in inferiour Courts why the Jury are not permitted to seperate till they have discharged themselves by their Verdict may have any influence upon this Case where that reason seems to fail the Prisoner being to be tryed by his Peers that are men of unquestionable unsuspected Integrity and Honour we can't presume so far as to make any Determination in a point that is both new to us and of great Consequence in it self but think it the properest way for us having laid matters as we conceive them before your Grace and my Lords to submit the Jurisdiction of your own Court to your own determination L. H. Steward My Lords I confess I would always be very tender of the Priviledge of the Peers wherever I find them concerned but truly I apprehend according to the best of my understanding that this Court is held before me It is my Warrant that convenes the Prisoner to this Barr. It is my Summons that brings the Peers together to try him and so I take my self to be Judge of the Court. My Lords 't is true may withdraw and they may call the Judges to them to assist them which shews they have an extraordinary Priviledge in some Cases more before the High Steward than Juries have in inferior Courts in Cases of common Persons For if it be in a common Case no Jury can call either Counsell or Judges to assist them in the absence of the Prisoner but if they will have advice it must be asked in open Court in the presence of the party accused But now My Lords if you have a mind to consult with me in private as I now sit by Virtue of this Commission which is his Majesties Warrant for me to hold this Court I could not withdraw with you but you must ask all your questions of me in the presence of the Prisoner in open Court whereas if it were in full Parliament as were the Cases of my Lord Stafford and my Lord of Pembroke then he that were the High Steward might go along with you when you withdrew and consult with you and give his Opinion which I cannot do in this Case for I am bound to sit in Court while you withdraw to consider of the Evidence and am not to hear any thing said to me but what is said in open Court in the presence of the Prisoner except it be when you deliver your Verdict This I confess my Lords has a great weight with me and I know your Lordships will be very tender of proceeding in such a Case any way but according to Law For though you are Judges of your own Priviledges yet with Submission you are not Judges of the Law of this Court for that I take to be my Province Why then Suppose my Lords I should take upon me to do as my Lord Delamere desires and adjourn the Court and suppose the Law should fall out to be that indeed I ought not so to have done would it be any advantage to this Noble Peer if he should be acquitted by your Lorships after such an Adjournment might not the evil consequence of that be that he might be Indicted for the same crime and tryed again For all the Proceedings after that would be Void and lyable to be reversed And if on the other side your Lordships should think fit upon the Evidence you have now heard and what he shall say for himself to convict him after I have adjourned as is desired and I pass Judgment upon him as it will be
all the Council in the world should not be able to answer it My Lords I think the Evidence that has been given against me this day does not come up to this And I hope your Lordships will regard this saying of my Lord Nottinghams as more worthy of your consideration than the fine Flourishings and Insinuations of the Kings Council which tend if it be not so designed rather to misguide your Lordships than to lead you to find out the Truth My Lords I shall now tell you the method that I shall proceed in in making my Defence and I begin with Saxon for he I perceive is the great Goliah whose Evidence is to maintain this Accusation and if I cut him down I suppose I shall be thought to have done my own business therefore to that I shall apply my self first and do it if I can and I will in the first place examine several persons that are his Neighbours and have conversed with him what they have heard and know of him and first I desire Richard Hall may be called L. H. Steward My Lord Delamere if you begin that way to call Witnesses against Saxon it is fit he should be here to know what is said against him L. Delamere Ay with all my heart My Lord. L. H. Steward Then call Saxon agen Then Saxon and Hall came both in L. Delamere Pray Mr. Hall tell my Lords here what you know of Thomas Saxon. L. H. Steward What is it you ask of this Witness L. Delamere My Lord I desire him to give an account what he knows of a Letter that was forged by Saxon in the name of one Hildage Hall About the nineteenth of December in the year 1683 I received a Letter by Thomas Saxon from Richard Hildage wherein he desired me to send him the sum of six pounds odd money which I owed him I received the Letter and paid the money and to the best of my knowledge some little time after I met with the said Hildage at Newcastle who asked me to pay him the money I owed him I replyed I had paid the money according to his Note but he said he never gave any such Note and threatned to sue me thereupon I sent one Lord to Hildage that is here now in the Court and desired Hildage his forbearance for a while till I could get the money from Saxon back again and afterwards he sent again for his money and I sent to Saxon for it but still the money did not come L. H. Steward Did you ever speak with Saxon himself Hall No but with his wife who came to me about it but he acknowledged he wrote the Letter before John Lord. Saxon. Did not my wife tell you that Richard Hildage lent me the money L. H. Steward Nay you must not Dialogue with one another but if you have any questions you must propound them to the Court My Lord Delamere have you any more questions to ask him L. Delamere No my Lord. L. H. Steward Then what is it you would have him asked Saxon Saxon. I desire you would please to ask him whether or no he did not lend me the money L. H. Steward He who do you mean Saxon. Richard Hildage did L. H. Steward What say you did Richard Hildage lend him the money Hall No my Lord. L. H. Steward Look you my Lord Delamere the Objection carries a great deal of weight in it to prove him a very ill man if it be fully made out L. Delamere My Lord if your Grace please I can prove that he owned the writing of the Letter to another man L. H. Steward My Lord he does own here that he wrote the Letter and that he wrote it in Hildage's name but he saith the Letter he so wrote in Hildage's Name was by Hildage's direction and if so that takes off the Objection made against him L. Delamere I must submit that to your Grace whether what he says in that matter be Evidence L. H. Steward What Hildage did or did not is the main turn of the question in this Case for he might lend him the money and yet afterwards might say when he thought he might lose it that he did not send any such Letter and all this be true and Saxon in no fault I must confess if Hildage were here himself and should deny the lending of the money or the giving him Directions to receive it you would have fixed a shrewd Objection upon him but otherwise Hear-says and discourses at second hand are not to take off the Credit of any mans Testimony L. Delamere But Hall says Hildage denyed the receipt of the money or any Order for receiving of it L. H. Steward That signifies nothing being but by second hand Saxon. If it please your Grace here is my Brother in Court will give you an account of it L. H. Steward Well well Hold your tongue will your Lordship please to go on L. Delamere The next Witness my Lord that I shall call shall be Francis Ling who came in L. H. Steward What do you ask this Witness L. Delamere Mr. Ling pray will you tell his Grace and my Lords what you know concerning Saxon's receiving any Money in the name of Mrs. Wilbraham without her Order Ling. He called at this same Hildage's at Newcastle and received twenty five Shillings and said it was for Mrs. Wilbraham in her name but she never received a penny of the Money nor knew of his having received it till he came to pay another Quarter L. H. Steward Where is that Mrs. Wilbraham is she here Ling. No my Lord she is a Neighbour of ours an Ancient Woman fourscore years of Age and cannot come so far L. H. Steward This is the same Case with the other you can never think to take off the Credibility of Witnesses by such Testimony for this is only a Tale out of an Old Woman's Mouth What if that Old Woman told him a false Story Ling. She said L. H. Steward I care not what she said this is no Evidence at all L. Delamere Then 'pray call Richard Shaw who came in L. H. Steward Well what says this Witness L. Delamere Shaw can you tell any thing of Thomas Saxon's writing a Letter and sending it in the Name of one Paugston a Bayliff Shaw He writ a Letter as I understand concerning some money that I owed him for I owed him a little money and being I did not pay it he does forge a Letter and puts William Paugston's name to it so I got up the other Morning L. H. Steward Where is Paugston Is he here Shaw No my Lord he is not but he told me he did not write the Letter L. H. Steward Why this is just the same again and we all know how easie a thing it is to hear a Bayliff tell a Lye Shaw I cannot tell but I called L. H. Steward All that is nothing It is a difficulter matter to hear such Fellows speak truth than any thing else I
stop any where till he came to Middle-wich where the Countrey Militia were exercising and he just alighted off his Horse and spoke with Major Minshaw and some of the Officers but never so much as drunk by the way till he came to his own house L. H. Stew. What to his house in Staffordshire Kidd No but to Crew-Hall in Cheshire L. H. Stew. Does Mere lye in the Road between Sir Willoughby Aston's and Crew-Hall so that your Master might be there within that time Kidd No that he could not do L. H. Stew. Were you with Mr. Offley the whole Journey home Kidd Yes My Lord I was L. H. Stew. Were you no time from him Kidd No My Lord I was not L. H. Stew. What time did he come home Kidd He came to his own house about 4 or 5 a Clock at night L. H. Stew. And did not he go from thence that night Kidd No My Lord. L. Delamere Now My Lord I will prove as to my self that I was in London at the time as he speaks of And first I desire Sir James Langham may be heard to that He appeared but gave no Evidence L. Delamere Pray call Booth who appeared L. H. Stew. What is this Gentleman's name L. Delamere He is my Brother My Lord his Name is Booth L. H. Stew. What do you ask him L. Delamere Pray can you remember what time in June you saw me in Town here Mr. Booth My Lord I saw my Brother here in Town the 3 d 4 th 5 th 6 th and so on to the 10 th of June and the 10 th of June I went out of Town my self I saw him sometimes twice or thrice a day in that time for I did not lodge above half a score doors from him L. H. Stew. Where was that Mr. Booth In great Russel Street L. H. Stew. How come you to remember the time so particularly Mr. Booth It was that day Sennight before I went out of Town which was Wednesday the 10 th of June and had it not been for that particular circumstance I had not remark'd it so much as to be able particularly to remember it Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Mr. Booth did you know of your Brothers going out of Town the 27 th of May Mr. Booth I heard he was gone out of Town about that time L. H. Stew. Why then when came he hither to Town again Mr. Booth I cannot tell but I saw him upon the 3 d of June in the Evening Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord it is not possible for him so to do in that time if he rode Post L. H. Stew. He did make a great deal of haste backward and forward that is certain L. Delamere My Brother does not know when I went but as he heard he says L. H. Stew. But pray my Lord mind the Objection that has been made for it carries a great deal of weight in it It is plainly proved by two Witnesses that you went out of Town the 27 th of May at 9 of the Clock at night and rode to Hoddesdon and the next day came to Hitchin about Noon then they left you and return'd back again to London that Night and you told them you were going to see a sick Child of yours in Cheshire how came you to make such Post-haste back again that he should see you here in London the 3 d of June Mr. Booth My Lord I am certain I saw him that day in the Evening and so on to the 10 th L. H. Stew. Did my Lord then tell you how your Friends did in Cheshire Mr. Booth I cannot remember the particular discourse we had Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Sir when did he tell you he came to Town L. H. Stew. You say you used to see him every day once or twice a day Mr. Booth Yes I did so L. H. Stew. Pray where was he the 2 d of June Mr. Booth He was not come to Town L. H. Stew. How long time was it before that that you had not seen him Mr. Booth I had not seen him of several days before L. Delamere If it please your Grace here is another Brother of mine that saw me at the same time and tho' he be my Brother I hope he is a good Witness L. H. Stew. Ay God forbid else what is his name L. Delamare George Booth L. H. Stew. Well what say you Sir Mr. George Booth My Lord I saw my Brother Delamere here in Town the 4 th of June by this particular circumstance which I cannot err in that the next day as I take it I went down with him to the House of Lords to hear my Lord Macclesfield's Cause which was then there to be heard upon the Appeal of Mr. Fitton and my Brother was in the House of Lords at that time which was the 5 th of June L. H. Stew. My Lord Delamere I think it not amiss to put you in mind of one thing which it is fit your Lordship should give some answer to Does your Lordship deny that you went out of Town the 27 th of May L. Delamere No My Lord I do not I acknowledge I did so L. H. Stew. Then it will be fit for you to give an account where you were the 28 th of May and so all along till the 3 d of June L. Delamere If you Grace please I hope I shall give you full satisfaction in that by and by but I have one witness more to this point of my being in Town at such a time that I could not be in Cheshire when this Fellow says I was and that is my Lord Lovelace L. H. Stew. There is my Lord Lovelace what will you ask him L. Delamere Whether he did not see me at the Tryal of my Lord Macclesfield in the House of Lords L. Lovelace I vvas in the House of Lords that day that my Lord Macclesfield's Tryal was and I remember I did see my Lord Delamere there L. H. Stew. But we are as much at a loss now as ever we were for what day that Tryal was does not appear What day was my Lord Macclesfield's Tryal L. Delamere The Journal of the House of Lords proves that to be the 5 th of June L. Lovelace My Lord stood just by the Bar and if I am not mistaken took notes L. Delamere My Lord I hope now I have satisfied your Grace and the rest of my Lords that none of us three whom this fellow has mentioned were there at that time at Mere when he says we were For my own part I do positively affirm and I speak it as in the presence of Almighty God that I have not seen Sir Robert Cotton at my house that I know of these many years and I believe Mr. Ossley was never in my House since I was Master of it And I do likewise protest that to my knowledge I never saw the face of this Man till now that be is produced as a witness against me I am sure I never spoke with him
in all my life nor never sent for him to come to my house And if your Lordship please to consider the Story that he tells it will easily appear to be very improbable for he neither tells you vvho the Messenger was that was sent for him nor the way that he came into the House which any body that has ever been at the House could not mistake For when I asked him what door it was he came in at it was for this reason because he must needs have gone a great way about if he had not come in at the usual Entry into the house for I have but one door into my house except that by the Stables which is a great vvay off the house and it being about that time of the year if it were 8 or 9 of the Clock in the Evening he must needs discern which way he came in And besides My Lords Is it probable what he says that he should see no body stirring about the House except it were this man without a hand that he says was sent for him I assure your Lordships I have not nor had my Father ever that I know of any Servant or Tennant that was maimed in that manner that he speaks of he saith he was recommended to us by my Lord Brandon But he cannot tell your Lordship any thing that ever he had done to recommend him either to him or us I did ask him what important Service he had ever done for me that might give a credibility to my imploying him in such a business as this My Lord I cannot help it if People will tell false Stories of me but I hope your Lordships will consider the credibility of it Is it to be imagined that I would take a man I knew nothing of upon another mans word into so great a confidence as to employ him about a business of this Nature I am glad that he was called in here again for your Lordships to view him I beseech your Lordships to look at him Is this Fellow a likely Fellow to be used in such an Affair Does he look as if he were fit to be employed for the raising of ten thousand men Does he seem to be a man of such considerable Interest in his Countrey A Fellow that though it be not direct Evidence yet by several Witnesses I have shewn to be a Man of no Reputation in his Country nay of a very ill one and could we have none else to employ in a matter of this moment but such a Fellow as his Neighbours would not take his word for any thing It is an improbable Story upon these accounts if I should say no more Your Lordships likewise see that he is so well thought of that he dare not be trusted out of Newgate but is kept still a Prisoner and as such gives Evidence here And I know your Lordships will not forget that he swears to save himself having been a Rebel by his own Confession and he would fain exchange his Life for mine till he has a Pardon which as yet as I am informed he has not the Objection will still lye upon him that he swears to save himself which will render his Testimony not credible and the Law requires the Witnesses in Treason to be credible ones And yet forsooth this Man that no body that knows him will believe a word he says must be taken to be the man of Integrity Zeal and Industry the man of Management and Dispatch the Man of Interest and Authority in his Countrey that nothing can be done but he must have a hand in it My Lords I think I need say no more of him your Lordships time is precious too precious indeed to be spent upon such a Subject and so I set him aside My Lords there is a thing that I perceive the King's Counsel lay a great weight upon and that is my going down upon the 27 th day of May and my frequent riding Post to and fro I shall now satisfie your Lordships of the Reasons of my Journeys The first time which was betwixt the Coronation and the sitting of the Parliament was upon this reason I went down to take possession upon a Lease of a considerable value which was renewed to me by the Bishop I did not think of going down at that time so soon but I had word wrote me out of the Countrey that the Bishop was ill and that obliged me in point of Interest to make haste down And this I shall prove by one that was Attorny for me and another that was a witness of my taking Possession And for this I first call Mr. John Edmonds who came in Pray Sir will you tell his Grace and my Lords what you know of my coming down into the Countrey in the beginning of May and upon what account and what time it was Mr. Edmonds May it please your Lordship upon the 5 th of May my Lord Delamere did me the Honour to come to my House and he stayed there a little while and desired me to be a Witness of his takeing possession upon a Lease of my Lord Bishop of Chester's and we went into the House that was next to mine which was 〈◊〉 and there did take Possession L. H. Stew. Where is your house Mr. Edmonds At Boden in Cheshire L. H. Stew. When was this do you say Mr. Edmonds The 5 th of May. L. Delamere Pray Sir will you satisfie my Lord whether the Bishop was not ill at that time Mr. Edmonds My Lord I had been a little before at Chester and hearing my Lord Bishop was not very well I went to Mr. Allen and told him I was desirous to see my Lord and speak with him if I might he told me my Lord was so ill that he would speak with no body L. H. Stew. Was it a Lease for Years or a Lease for Lives Mr. Edmonds It was a Lease for Lives L. H. Stew. Then that might require my Lord's takeing Possession Who do you call next My Lord L. Delamere Mr. Henry L. H. Stew. What do you ask this Man My Lord L. Delamere Pray will you give his Grace and my Lords an account whether you were not Attorney and delivered me Possession upon the Lease of my Lord Bishop of Chester Mr. Henry My Lord I was Attorney by appointment and the 5 th of May last I delivered Possession to my Lord Delamere at one of the most remarkable places of the Land that belonged to that Lease of the Bishop L. Delamere My Lords I hope this a satisfactory reason for my going down at that time the Bishop being ill and the Lease being worth 6 or 7000 l. The next time that I have to speak to is That of my going the 27 th of May And for that I give this answer I did go out of Town the 27 th of May The occasion of my going was I had taken up a resolution before to go see my Child that was not well but I had not taken
my Journey so soon nor with such privacy but that I had notice there was a Warrant out to apprehend me and knowing the inconveniences of lying in Prison I was very willing to keep as long out of Custody as I could and therefore I went out of the way and under a borrowed name When I came to my house in Cheshire there were not above 5 of my own Servants that saw me all the while I was there and I saw no body but them but while I was there my Wife sent me an Express that as to the Warrant she hoped it was a mistake and there was no such thing but my eldest Son was very ill and if I intended to see him alive I must make haste up this was the occasion of my quick return and I shall satisfie your Lordships by Proof that I came thither in that manner to avoid the Warrant and for no other Reason L. H. Stew. You say you went to see a sick Child in the Countrey L. Delamere May it please your Grace my Mother that is here wrote me word that my Child was not well L. H. Stew. Pray what made you come back again so soon L. Delamere Because I had an Express sent me by my Wife that my other Son vvas like to dye L. H. Stew. Call your Witness my Lord. L. Delamere Mrs. Kelsey who came in Pray will you give an account what I said when I came down vvas the occasion of my coming so privately and changing my Name Mrs. Kelsey My Lord heard he said there was a Warrant for taking of him up and he gave me that for a reason besides his little Son in the Country was ill L. H. Stew. What she lived in the Countrey did she Mrs. Kelsey My Lord I was in the house with him L. Delamere If your Lordships please my Mother may be examined L. H. Stew. Yes with all my heart She sate by him at the Bar. L. H. Stew. Pray Madam will you lift up your Voice that my Lords may hear what you say Lady Delamere My Lords This Child of his that was in the Countrey was more than ordinarily pretious to him in regard it was born to him at that time when he was an innocent honest Man as he is now a Prisoner in the Tower for high Treason above two years ago and I think it increased his affection to the Child that God had given it to him when he was in that affliction My Lord I knowing the affection that the Father and Mother both had to the Child my care in their absence I thought ought to be more exercised about him The Child sucked but I â—â—w the Child decline and therefore I was of Opinion that he shoâ—â—d be weaned and I sent up word that if they did not take carâ— quickly and look a little after him I was afraid he would go i◠〈◊〉 Consumption Upon this my Son came down I saw him not indeed because he was very private all the while he was in the Countrey but while he was there it pleased God to visit his eldest Son with a dangerous distemper upon which my daughter sent for him Post if he intended to see his Son alive And thereupon I think he made what haste back again he could L. H. Stew. Were you in the same house with him Madam Lady Delamere My Lord I say I did not see him all the time he was there I only tell you what I heard L. H. Stew. How long was he in the Country Lady Delamere I cannot tell exactly that I think he was not above two days L. H. Stew. He must be but one day by computation of time L. Delamere Pray My Lord I will satisfie you in that point presently Mrs. Kelsey vvill give an account what time it was that I came down and vvhen I went avvay Mrs. Kelsey My Lord came down upon the Sabbath-day night and stayed there Monday and went away the Tuesday morning L. H. Stew. Look you My Lord the 27 th of May was upon a Wednesday that night you went out of Town and wont to Hoddesden Thursday which was the 28 th you came to Hitchin at Noon Friday was the 29 th Saturday the 30 th Sunday was the 31 th then you came to your House Munday the 1 st of June Tuesday the 2 d then you came away and upon Wednesday the 3 d you were in Town so says your Brother L. Delamere It was so my Lord. L. H. Stew. Which way did you come back L. Delamere I came Post through Coventry my Lord and that was the time that Hope speaks of that I told him I had come another way into Cheshire when I came down L. H. Stew. My Lord you say you went down to secret your self from a Warrant that you apprehended was out against you and that made you go a by-way how came you then to come so publickly back the ordinary Post Rode L. Delamere If your Grace please I have told you I had an Express came from my Wife that told me it was a mistake as to the Warrant but my Child was very ill and I must make haste up L. H. Stew. Have you any more Witnesses my Lord L. Delamere Yes my Lord I desire Mr. Kelsey may be called He came in L. H. Stew. Well what say you Mr. Kelsey My Lord came down upon the Sunday night at 11 of the Clock and stayed at home all Monday and on Tuesday morning at 3 of the Clock in the morning he took Horse â—â—r London and I have Letters by me that are dated the 4 th of â—â—â—e which was Thursday that told me my Lord was come to Town â—â—e night before L. H. Stew. Whose are those two Letters Mr. Kelsey They were from my Lady and Mrs Vere Booth and both came by the same Post L. Delamere I shall call one Witness more My Lord to prove that my Child was sick here in Town and the time and that is Sir Thomas Millington who was his Physitian Sir Thomas was called and came in L. Delamere Pray Sir Thomas can you recollect your self what time my Son was ill last year Sir Tho. Millington My Lord I was sent for to my Lord Delamere's Son upon the 28 th of May and I found him then very ill and he continued so for two days Insomuch as I told my Lady Delamere his Mother that I thought the Child would not escape I told it likewise to Sir James Langham who is my Neighbour in Lincolns Inn Fields what they did upon it whether they sent for my Lord Delamere to Town or no I cannot tell but I know punctually this was the time by reason of the Bills I wrote are dated on that day otherwise I could not have remembred the time but the Bills being sent me from the Apothecary I find that date to them L. H. Stew. Pray Mr. Attorney will you call Edlin again or Vaux either of them Mr. Att. Gen. Here is Edlin my Lord. L. H.
up and he was not to open it till he came to Sea and when he did open it he found it contained a Signification of the Place where he was to Land and where he was to Rendezvouz which was Taunton and who were the Persons that were to have Notice of it among whose Names we find my Lord Delamere's to be one but he does likewise tell you he was not the man that was to carry the Message to these Persons but he was to deliver it to Matthews or Wildman and they were to transmit it to the other Persons He tells you likewise That when he came to Town which was the 27 th of May he met neither with Matthews nor Major Wildman whereupon being at a loss what he should do with his Message for want of those other Persons he acquainted Disney that was Executed with his Errand who promised to take care that it should be delivered This My Lords is all Jones's Evidence for Jones does not say that he himself acquainted or that Disney did acquaint my Lord Delamere with the Message But here My Lord is the main Circumstance that renders the matter suspicious That very Night that Jones came to Town and Disney being acquainted with the Message had undertaken to get it delivered does my Lord Delamere at Ten of the Clock at Night go out of Town in the Company of two Friends under the Disguise of the Name of Brown and a Bye-Road and so goes down to his own House in Cheshire This I say is the Circumstance that renders the thing suspicious Now my Lords if we do prove by such sufficient Evidence as may make the matter manifest to you that my Lord Delamere had Notice of Jones's Message for upon that Point the Case will turn whether he had Notice such a Message was brought that such things were in agitation such Preparations made and that they were all to go into the Country then I say his going down is a violent Presumption he had an intent to comply with the Message and joyn in the Design But now My Lords comes the Question the main Question How is it made out that he had Notice Jones brought such a Message Jones indeed My Lords does not say that he himself imparted it to him or that Disney told him he had Communicated it but I think there is another Witness and that is Storey who saith That Brand one that knew of the Message did acquaint him that my Lord had received it at the Coffee-House and that Night went out of Town It is true My Lords this is but a Hear-say but that which followed being matter of Fact my Lord 's going out of Town that Night so late in the Night and in such an unusual suspicious manner gives more Credit to the Relation than as a bare Hear-say could have of it self For unless there be some good account given of my Lords thus going out of Town it is a kind of necessary Presumption that he acquainted with the Message part of which was That he should go out of Town and if so it can have no other Construction with Submission than to be in pursuance of and complying with the Directions that that Message brought him from the Duke of Monmouth My Lords to carry this a little further there were two Witnesses produced that went out of Town with him they seem indeed unwillingly to give their Evidence but I shall faithfully repeat what Testimony they gave Their Names were Vaux and Edlin Vaux he saith he met my Lord Delamere at the Rummer-Tavern in Queen-street the 26 th day of May which was the day before Jones came to Town and that then he appointed to go out of Town the next day which was the 27th and accordingly he did go Edlin he saith he met Vaux at the Custom-House upon the 27th of May in the Morning and being desired by him to go with him out of Town he did so and there was with him a Gentleman whose Name was Brown and who now appears to be my Lord Delamere they went in Company with him as far as Hitchin where they left him upon Thursday the 28th at Noon This Evidence is produced to shew That my Lord did go out of Town at that time and in that manner as has been alledged and that these Persons went with him to conduct him a private way that he should not go the common Road. Your Lordships will consider what Answer hath been given to this and what account my Lord Delamere has given of himself Another thing my Lords that renders this matter suspicious is the Name which my Lord was pleased to assume to disguise himself by it being a Name by which the Party use to call my Lord in their Discourses of him And to prove that we have likewise produced two Witnesses Babington and Paunceford Babington he says That in their Consultations there were Discourses of my Lord Delamere under the Name of Brown and once at a Tavern when my Lord Delamere was named by one in the Company he was presently catched up for it and replied to You mean Mr. Brown and so it seems that was the Canting Name under which they discoursed of my Lord Delamere The other Witness Paunceford he tells you That being at Disney's House and concerned with him in the printing the Late Duke of Monmouth's Declarations for the printing of which Disney was Executed one Lock came for some of those Declarations for Mr. Brown and they were to be sent into Cheshire so that though your Lordships observe the Witness saith some body else was called by the Name of Brown yet you have had no account given you that there was any other Brown in Cheshire It is true indeed My Lords that these are only things that Disney said and Lock said But I must take leave to say it is very suspicious that if my Lord went out of Town into Cheshire under the Name of Brown and some Persons shall on the behalf of Brown come for Declarations to be sent into Cheshire and my Lord commonly in that Parly go by the Name of Brown that those Declarations were for my Lord and that will be a great Evidence of his Correspondence with Monmouth But I confess My Lords all this while our Proof is Circumstantial and indeed there is no positive Proof but that of Saxon and in him our Proof must center for without him I must acknowledge nothing that has been offered will be Proof against my Lord upon this Indictment for bare Circumstances and bare Suspicions will be no Proof against any Man but such as are violent and necessary and those joyned to a positive Proof such as the Law requires Now then My Lords I come to the Consideration of what weight and stress is to be laid upon this positive Evidence of Saxons And here I must confess there are objections made to this Testimony to which I cannot readily give an Answer for Saxon has sworn that he was there
at such a time and that he was sent for and entertain'd as a Person recommended by my Lord Brandon as fit to be intrusted with the Secret and capable of being imployed to stir up the Country in order to the prosecution of a Design they had on foot to raise a Rebellion and he does Charge Sir Robert Cotton and Mr. Crew Offley to have been there at the same time The Evidence My Lords that has been produced to falsifie this positive Witness in the point of Sir Robert Cotton's being there has been by Five or Six Witnesses who testifie Sir Robert Cotton's being in Town and not elsewhere from the 10th of April to the latter end of July and I do not see what we have to say in answer to their Testimony I must agree the Proof to be full in that Point and if the Evidence they give be true I cannot say that Saxon's Evividence can be true in that Point Likewise as to Mr. Offley Sir Willoughby Aston and others have testified that he was not at my Lord Delamere's at the time Saxon speaks of For he gives you an account where he was every day from the 26th of May to the 4th of June and his own Servants bring him to his own House upon the 4th of June in the Evening which is quite another way than from Sir Willoughby Aston's to my Lord Delamere's If this likewise be true what Saxons says cannot be true I must agree it There is another thing that is offered on my Lord Delamere's part That he was himself in Town at that time that Saxon sayes he was at Mere But here indeed the matter seems to be a little more strange and dubious that my Lord should make so much hast down as to go out late at Night and so cautiously as to go by a wrong Name and yet to ride to Town again the Post-way to be here just the 3d of June when Saxon swears he was in Cheshire I must confess there is the Proof of his two Brothers that say They saw him in Town the 3 d and 4 th of June There is likewise some account given of his going out of Town that it was upon a Message received from his Mother that his Child in the Countrey was sick and indeed he did go a By-way and change his name for fear of a Warrant in a Messengers hands that was out against him to apprehend him Now My Lords I do not hear any thing that has been offered that there was any such Warrant or any discourse to ground that apprehension upon My Lord had the first and only apprehension of a Warrant but upon what Reasons he himself best knows This apprehension made him go out of Town so privately he sayes because he would not be prevented of seeing his sick Child But how comes it to pass that my Lord makes such a speedy Return By the Proofs it appears he did not get there till Sunday Night and upon the Tuesday Morning comes Post for London The account that he gives of that is this His hast was to see another Child that was here sick in Town For he had received an express from his Wife upon the Monday to acquaint him that the Coast was clear and there was no Warrant out against him but if he intended to see his Child alive he must make hast up to Town and accordingly upon the Tuesday morning early he sets out and upon the Wednesday in the Evening is here in Town again But with submission My Lords there is no good Account given by this noble Lord what reason there was for so many Post-Journeys backward and forward as had been testified he to have made within a very little compass of time for besides this of his return Post upon the 2 d of June there is only an Answer given to one of the rest which is That of the 5 th of May when he saith he went to take possession of the Land that he held by a Lease then renewed to him by the Bishop which being of some Value and Consideration to his Lordship and the Bishop being sick he thought it necessary to go down Post himself and would not be content to receive Livery by Attornment This is the only answer that is given to all those times of his riding Post that have been given in Evidence These are matters of Suspicion that are offered to your Lordships but I confess matters of Suspicion only unless clear positive probable Proof be joyned with them will not weigh with your Lordships to convict a man of High-Treason where two Witnesses are required But whether these matters of Suspicion be such violent and necessary Presumptions as tend to fortifie the positive Testimony I must leave that to the Consideration of your Lordships Lord High Steward You do not call any more Witnesses then I perceive Mr. Soll. General No My Lord. Lord High Steward My Lords it has not been usual of late for those who have sate in the place where I now am upon those Occasions to give you Lordships any trouble in repeating or observing upon the Evidence In this Case the Evidence that hath been given has been very long and it would be too great a Presumption in me should I have any manner of doubt in the least that either your Lordships have not well observed it or the Learned Counsel for the King have been defective in collecting or remarking upon it so as to need my Assistance But my Lords I confess there is something I cannot omit taking notice of not for your Lordships sakes but for the sake of this numerous and great Auditory that one mistake in point of Law might not go unrectified which seemed to be urged with some earnestness by the Noble Lord at the Barr That there is a necessity in point of Law that there should be two Positive Witnesses to convict a man of Treason He seemed to lay a great stress upon that but certainly his Lordship is under a great mistake as to the Law in that Point for without all doubt what was urged in answer to this Objection by that Learned Gentleman that concluded for the King is true There may be such other substantial Circumstances joyned to one Positive Testimony that by the Opinion of all the Judges of England several times has been adjudged and held to be a sufficient Proof As for the purpose in this Case suppose your Lordships upon the Evidence that has been given here this day should believe Saxon swears true who is a Positive Witness and shall then likewise believe that there was that Circumstance of Jones's coming over from Holland with such a Message upon the 27 th of May which is directly sworn in Evidence you are the Judges of that Evidence and what the other Witnesses have sworn likewise and is not denied by my Lord the Prisoner at the Barr that he went out of Town that Night changed his Name and went an indirect By-Road certainly these