and they ring a Bell to give the People notice of it that they may adore it If any of the People receive which is very seldome they must not touch it with their hands but the Priest must put it into their mouths and there it must dissolve These and many other such like Ceremonies are made Articles of Faith Child But did Christ ordain none of those Rites Father No. John came baptizing with Water John 1.31 The Eunuch said to Philip here is water what doth hinder me to be baptized Acts 8.36 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered to you saith St. Paul 1 Cor. 11.25 That the Lord Jesus the same night that he was betray'd took Bread and when he had given thanks he brake it and said Take eat this is my Body which is broken for you this do in remembrance of me They do neither break the Bread nor suffer the People to take or eat it Child I have heard enough of this I pray Sir proceed to the fifth Father I also embrace and receive all and several the things which have been defined and declared in the Sacred and holy Synod of Trent concerning Original Sin and Justification Child What Doctrines do they hold concerning Original Sin and Justification Father The things declared and defined by the Councel of Trent concerning Original Sin and Justification are too many to be here recited They teach that Concupiscence is no sin after Regeneration that 't is washed away by Baptism That the first motions thereof is no sin Concerning Justification they declare that we are Justified by Works that good Works are meritorious nay that there be Works of supererogation whereby the Saints do merit not onely for themselves but for others and out of the superabundant Merits of Christ and the Saints the Treasure of the Church is made up which the Pope hath power to dispence to vvhom he please vvhich brings him in great Treasure Child But what doth the Scripture say to these things Father David confesseth his Original Sin as the Root and Fountain of all Sin Psal 51.5 Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my Mother conceive me And St. Paul complains of it Rom. 7.18 I know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing for to vvill is present vvith me but hovv to perform that vvhich is good I knovv not Child But are we not justified by our Works Father No Child We are justified freely by his Grace through the Redemption that is in Jesus Christ Rom. 3.24 v. 27.28 Where is boasting then it is excluded by what Law of Works Nay but by the Law of Faith Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by Faith without the Deeds of the Law Child If we are not justified by Works then certainly we cannot merit by them Father You say well and the same Christ teaches us in the Gospel Luke 17.10 When you shall have done all those things that are commanded you say We are unprofitable Servants we have done that which was our duty to do Child What is the sixth Article Father I also profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true proper and propitiatory Sacrifice for the Living and the Dead and that in the most holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is contained truly really and substantially the Body and Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and there is made a perfect Change of the whole substance of the Bread into his Body and of the whole Substance of the Wine into his Blood which change the Catholick Church calleth Transubstantiation Child In this Article are many things that I would be glad to understand 1. What I pray Sir is meant by the Mass Father 'T is an old word that few understand the word Missa some say did signifie to dismiss some out of the Assembly even all that did not communicate which if it should do so still would leave the Priest alone for now he usually communicates by himself and the People look on But I rather think 't is call'd the Mass because 't is a mess or mass of Corruption Child But why is is call'd a Sacrifice for the Living and the Dead I thought Sacrifice had ceased Father True Child so the Apostle Heb. 9.28 Christ was once offer'd to bear the Sins of many and Chap. 10.12 But this man after he had offer'd one Sacrifice for Sins for ever sate down on the right hand of God and verse 14. By one Offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified It may be call'd a Sacrifice because it is a Representation and Memorial of the true Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and because it makes us Partakers of the same but no otherwise as I know of Child But is is the Bread and Wine changed into the Body and Blood of Christ Father No Child certainly if it were we should see it with our Eyes and handle it with our hands and smell it and tast it so to be but we see it and handle it and smell it and tast it Bread and Wine and therefore no doubt so it is After this manner St. John writes That which was from the Beginning which we have heard which we have seen with our Eyes which we have looked upon and our hands have handled of the word of Life 1 Joh. 1.1 and ver 3. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you that you may have Fellowship with 〈◊〉 Child But what doth the Scripture call it Father The Scripture after Consecration calls it Bread three times together 1 Cor. 11.26.27.28 For as often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come Wherefore whosoever shall eat this Bread and drink this Cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself and so let him eat of that Bread and drink of that Cup. Child But is it plain Bread and Wine and no more Father O no! God by these Signs of Bread and Wine signifieth sealeth and exhibiteth to every faithful Receiver the Body and Blood of Christ and all the merits of his Death and Passion So the Apostle 1 Cor. 10.16 The Cup of Blessing which we bless is it not the Communion of the Blood of Christ the Bread which we break is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ Child But what is this they call Transubstantiation Father The word signifies the Change of one Substance into another and thereby they express their Doctrine of the corporal Presence but neither the word nor thing is to be found in Scripture nor in the Writings of the primitive Fathers neither was it pretended to be an Article of Faith till the Lateran Counsel 1200 years after Christ and therefore we protest against it and say that what the Church of Rome teaches of Transubstantiation is absolutely impossible and
with the same Medicine that some have cured sick persons with holy Bread and Oyl which indeed is the most likely of them all as being good Food and good Medicine And although not so much as a Chicken is now a days cured of the Pip by holy Water yet upon all Occasions they use it and the common people throw it upon Childrens Cradles and sick Cows horns and upon them that they think bewitched or blasted and if they recover by any means it is imputed to the Holy-water and so the Simplicity of Christian Religion the glory of our Dependance upon God and the Holiness and mystery of Sacraments are disordered and dishonour'd Thus the Israelites did when they fell to Idolatry they joyned themselves to Baal Peor and eat the Sacrifices of the dead thus they provoked him to anger with their Inventions Psal 106.28 29. and v. 39. Thus were they defiled with their own Works and went a whoring with their own Inventions Child Is there any thing else that they teach of the Sacraments to be observed Father Yes There is yet one great Instance more of their Irreligion they are taught to rely upon the Sacraments with so little of moral and vertuous Dispositions that the Efficacy of one is made to lessen the Necessity of the other and the Sacraments are taught to be so effectual by an inherent Vertue that they are not so much made the Instruments of Vertue as the Supplement not so much to encrease as to make amends for the want of Grace contrary to that of the Apostle Whosoever shall eat this Bread and drink this Cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself and so let him eat of that Bread and drink of that Cup 1 Cor. 11.27 28. Child By this I suppose they do not think Repentance is needful to fit and prepare us for the Lords-table I pray Sir what do they teach concerning that Duty Father They are so loose in the Doctrine of Repentance that you cannot imagine it I shall therefore shew you what we and they teach concerning that Duty and conclude this Discourse Child I pray Sir first shew me then what we teach concerning Repentance Father Our Protestant Doctors teach that Repentance is an inward and true sorrow for Sin especially that we have offended so gracious a God and so loving a Father together with a settled purpose of Heart and a careful endeavour to leave all our Sins and to live a Christian Life according to all God's Commandments The Sacrifices of God are a broken Spirit a broken and a contrite Heart O God thou wilt not despise Ps 51.17 Child How is this Grace wrought in us Father 'T is wrought in us partly by the threatning of the Law and the fear of God's Judgments but especially increased by feeling the Fruit of Christ's Death whereby we have power to hate Sin and to leave it Child Wherein doth Repentance properly consist Father In a through changing of our purpose and desires from the Evil which God's word rebuketh in us to the good which it requireth of us Child Can men repent of themselves or when they list Father No for it is the gift of God given to them that are born again Child When is this Repentance to be practised Father The practice of Repentance ought to be a continual abhorring of Evil and cleaving unto that which is good for as much time as remains in the Flesh after our Confusion yet at some times there ought to be a more special practice and renewing thereof as after grievous Falls as we see in David Psal 51. and in fear of eminent Judgments which the Prophet calls for Amos 4.12 Because I will do this unto thee prepare to meet thy God O Israel Or when we should fit our selves to receive special mercies as when we come to the Lord's Table c. Child You have shewed me the Protestant Doctrine of Repentance I pray God give me Grace to practise it all the dayes of my life But I pray Sir Do not the Papists teach the same Father No. They teach 1. That a Sinner is not bound to repent of his Sin presently if it be done at any time 't is sufficient Some say he is bound by the Precept of the Church to repent upon the great Holidays others say once a year at Easter but 't is the general opinion that by the Law of God they are not tied to so much but only to repent in the danger or Article of Death from whence some conclude that to refuse to repent is but a venial sin but others say 't is none at all Child This seems to me to be intolerable Have they any more such Doctrines Father Alas Child this is but the beginning of sorrows The next thing therefore that I shall mention is their Doctrines concerning Contrition which when it is true and cordial for having sinn'd against God the the Church of Rome does not allow it to be of any value unless it be joyn'd with a desire to confess their Sins unto a Priest and this is decreed by the Councel of Trent contrary to all Scripture to the Doctrine of the Prophets Ezek. 18.30 Repent and turn your selves from all your Transgressions so Iniquity shall not be your ruine to the Doctrine of the Apostles Repent and be converted that your sins may be blotted out Act. 3.19 But this is not all for as Contrition without Confession will not reconcile us to God so Attrition as they call it proceeding from fear of damnation together with their Sacrament will do as well There is no necessity of Contrition at all If a man live a wicked life 60 or 80 years together yet if in the Article of his Death he be but a little sorrowful for his Sins and though this Sorrow hath in it no love of God but only a fear of Hell if the Priest absolves him he passes him instantly into a state of Salvation The Priest with two fingers and a thumb can do his work for him in a moment Child Vpon these terms it is a wonder that all wicked men in the World are not Papists where they may live so merrily and dye so securely but is not Confession a troublesome thing to them Father Not at all They have an easie formal way of it I confess unto Almighty God to the Blessed V. Mary to blessed Michael the Archangel to blessed Jo. Baptist to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul to all the Saints and to you my Ghostly Father that I have very much sinned in thought word and deed through my fault through my fault through my exceeding great fault Therefore I beseech thee B. Virgin Mary blessed Michael the Archangel blessed John Baptist the holy Apostles Peter and Paul all the Saints and you my Ghostly Father to pray unto our Lord God for me And when they see Princes and Prelates Women and Boyes do the same every
ten twenty or thirty thousand years which brings him in a great Revenue and yet St. Peter says Forasmuch as you know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things as Silver and Gold but with the pretious Blood of Christ 1 Pet. 1.18 Child Have they any more Articles of Faith Father Yes Child The twelfth Article runs thus The Holy Catholick and Apostolick Church of Rome I acknowledge to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I vow swear and promise Obedience to the Bishop of Rome as Successor of B. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Jesus Christ Child This seems to me to be the worst I have heard yet for it makes all Churches subject to Rome and the Pope Lord and Master of all the World Doth the Scripture call the Church of Rome the Mother and Mistress of all Churches Father No Child Rome is not the Mother-church for the Gospel came from Jerusalem Thus it is written and thus it behoved Christ to suffer c. And that Repentance and Remission of Sins should be preached in his name among all Nations beginning at Jerusalem Luc. 24.46.47 Jerusalem which is above is free which is the Mother of us all Gal. 4.26 Neither is it the Mistress of all Churches It seemeth good unto the Holy Ghost and to us saith the Apostles and Elders and the whole Church assembled at Jerusalem Act. 15.22 23 28 29. to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things Child But the Pope it seems requires obedience from all Christians doth the Scripture command any such thing Father The Scripture commands obedience to our Pastors but not to the Pope Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for they watch for your Souls as they that must give account Heb. 13.7 Child Is the Popedom an Office in the Ministry Father No. He gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting the work of the Ministry and for the edifying of the Body of Christ Eph. 4.11 12. Child Was St. Peter Prince of the Apostles Father No. Ye know that the Princes of the Gentiles exercise Dominion over them and they that are great exercise Authority upon them But it shall not be so among you but whosoever will be great among you let him be your Servant Matth. 20.25 26. Child Is the Pope St. Peter's Successor Father Truly Child I know not 't is probable he never was at Rome St. Paul makes no mention of him neither in his Epistle to the Romans nor in any of his Epistles from Rome and St. Peter himself writes not to the Romans but to the Jews scattered throughout Pontus Galatia Capadocia Asia and Bithynia 1 Pet. 1.1 and subscribes his Epistle from Babylon chap. 5.13 so that unless Rome be Babylon 't is not likely St. Peter was there Child But is there not one Visible Head of the Church Father No. We are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone Eph. 2.20 There is one Body and one Spirit even as you are called in one hope of your Calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all Eph. 4.4 5 6. Child But was not St. Peter the great Apostle of the Gentiles Father No. But contrariwise when they saw that the Gospel of the Uncircumcision was committed unto me as the Gospel of the Circumcision was unto Peter for he that wrought effectually in Peter to the Apostleship of the Circumcision the same was mighty in me towards the Gentiles And when James Cephas and John who seemed to be Pillars perceived the Grace that was given unto me they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of Fellowship that we should go to the Heathen and they unto the Circumcision Gal. 2.7 8 9. Child By all this I perceive that neither the Pope nor St. Peter himself hath or had any Dominion or Authority over the Church of Christ and yet I have heard that the Pope claims Authority to depose Kings Is that lawful Father No. St. Paul sayes Put them in mind to be subject to Principalities and Powers to obey Magistrates to be ready to every good work Tit. 3.1 And St. Peter is more plain and gives the Supremacy to Kings Submit your selves to every Ordinance of Man for the Lords sake whether it be to the King as Supreme or unto Governours as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evil Doers and for the praise of them that do well for so is the Will of God 1 Pet. 2.13 14. Child Doth not the Pope also absolve from Oaths of Allegiance Father Yes And yet Solomon sayes I counsel thee to keep the Kings commandement and that in regard of the Oath of God Eccl. 8.2 Child Doth he claim any other Power Father Yes He can make right wrong and Justice Injustice say the Jesuits and they are bound to believe he commands well whatsoever the thing be and that all things enjoyned are just and good so good that nothing better could be done so that they speak modestly of his Power that say he can dispence with the Commandements of God And yet Christ sayes Whosoever shall break one of these least Commandements and shall teach men so he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven Matth. 5.19 Child Can such a man as this be a Christian Bishop or be termed his Holiness Father No. The Scripture calls him the Man of Sin the Son of Perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God 2 Thes 2.3 4. Child Doth the Scripture describe him by any other marks Father Yes v. 9. Even him whose coming is after the working of Sathan with all Power and Signs and lying Wonders Child Indeed I have heard the Priests and Jesuits of Rome pretend to cast out Devils and work Miracles Do they so in England Father Yes Ever and anon some Popish Person or other is possessed and then a Priest comes and exorcises him and casts out the Devil but their juggling tricks are usually discovered Such an one was the Boy of Bilson in Staffordshire whose tricks were all laid open before the Judge and Grand Jury at Stafford Assizes by the Bishop of the Diocese Child Doth not St. John also describe him Father Yes Revel 7.3 4 5 6. I saw a woman sit upon a Scarlet-colour'd Beast full of Names of Blasphemy having seven Heads and ten Horns And the Woman was array'd in Purple and Scarlet colour and decked with Gold and pretious Stones and Pearls having a golden Cup in her hand full of Abominations and Filthines's of her Fornication And upon her Head was a name written Mystery Babylon the Great the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth And I saw the Woman drunken with the Blood of