which is drink indeed are nourished up to Eternal life so that while some do eat and drink in that Ordinance unworthily and so eat and drink damnation others by faith feed upon the benefits of Christs death and blood-shed and so are nourished up to Eternal life Answ Is there any thing in the fore-cited place that directs to the use of that which thou cals an Ordinance surely in this thy zeal out-runs thy understanding seeing those be the words of the fore-cited place viz. for as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup shew ye the Lords death till he come for so it is on the Margent shew ye what is here of direction in these words as to the use of an Ordinance as thou sayest let the wise in heart judge but doth not the Apostles words asmuch if not more signifie to the Corinthians that they might forbear their eating and drinking in that wise as they did eat and drink and their unworthiness was in not discerning of the Lords body and for that cause was many sick and weak c. and for that disorder which was amongst many the Apostle reproves them as for their greediness and drunkenness the like and exhorts them to eat at home in their own houses but he never calls it an Ordinance to be ministred once a Moneth or once a week and that alwayes by some men or man appointed by the rest in their wills and wayes some to buy wine and bread and others to break it and deliver to the rest but Christ did not do so for in the same night in which he was betrayed he took bread and when he had given thanks he brake it and said take eat this is my body this do in remembrance of me after the same manner also he took the cup when he had Supped and did he bid you do so or do you do so after Supper or can you give thanks as he did or do you know what he said when he gave thanks or do you imitate him in saying his very words in one thing viz. this is my body and do you speak your own words in other things as when you give thanks or do you take a piece of bread and a cup of wine and say nothing at all but eat and drink and if you do it not in the same manner which he did it in is it then his Ordinance or your invention seeing Gods Ordinances must be kept as they were delivered and observed as he commanded them otherwise they are none of his and if not his then but a likeness and if a likeness then that which God hath forbidden and so is Idolatry and he an Idolator that so worships and in that state cannot enter into the Kingdom of God And whereas thou sayest some might eat this bread and drink this cup which is also called flesh and blood unworthily Take heed James of calling a lie a plea for truth in love to truth remember the Title of thy book where is that bread and that cup which a man may eat unworthily called flesh and blood as thou positively affirms in thy query it is surely thou discerns not Christs body for if thou did thou wouldst learn to speak truth are not these the words of the Apostle that thou intendst viz. wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord but where is it called flesh and blood surely this is a gross errour of thine not onely to call the outward bread the outward cup which an unworthy and wicked man may eat and drink flesh and blood and if flesh and blood whose flesh and blood is it not Christs flesh and Christs blood and can an unworthy man and woman eat and drink that surely no if Christs words be true and I must believe him before thee James and he saith John 6.54 whosoever eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath Eternal life how sayest thou then in thy query some might eat this bread and drink this cup which thou sayest is also called flesh and blood unworthily but where is the bread the cup which some may eat and drink unworthily called flesh and blood take heed of slandering the Scripture And then thou drawest up thy query into a short conclusion in these words viz. so that while some do eat and drink in that Ordinance unworthily and so eat and drink damnation other by faith feed upon the benefits of Christs death and blood-shed and so are nourished up to Eternal life and herein thou hast made a good confession that while some in that which thou calls an Ordinance eat and drink damnation others who live by faith and feed upon the benefits of Christs death and blood-shed and are not that which thou calls an Ordinance and yet are nourished up to Eternal life and so of what thou hast spoken this is the sum that some in that Ordinance eat and drink damnation and others out of it feed upon the living bread that comes down from heaven and have Eternal life abiding in them Q. 7. Whether those that deny Church fellowship do not forsake their own mercies seeing Gods children have found by sweet experience that it is of singular use for their building upon their most holy faith it being the place of Christs promised presence where he hath commanded the blessing and life for evermore Answ Those that deny that Church that is in God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Thes 1. and that fellowship that is in the light as he is in the light 1 John â— denyes the true Church-fellowship and forsakes their own mercies and that light in which alone all the Saints ever had all their sweet experiences given them of Gods love and tender mercy to them and in that who ever walked and continued in it built up one another in their most holy faith that being the place of Christs promised presence for there he dwells for ever and out of his light none can meet with him or know him and out of that is the false Church and Church-fellowship and Christian outward and baptism outward that onely washes away the filth of the flesh but knows not the answer of a good conscience by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ for from the true light was and is the false Church and fellowship for they went out from us saith the Apostle who had his fellowship in the light Q. 8. Whether they may not most truely be said to live above Ordinances that faithfully wait upon and live to Christ in the use of them Answ They that wait upon and live to Christ in the use of Ordinances cannot be said to live above them for that which God hath appointed and Ordained as the way to Eternal life and happiness none may live above it for the the way and the life are one and he that is in the way is in the truth and in the life also
speak truth plainly and therefore take Thomas Whites words at length as they are in his Book and may it not justly be queried how can those Baptists professe they know God whilst they are denying the light of his Son within in which the Father is revealed and by which that which may be known of God is made manifest in man seeing such hath appeared in opposition to this light both by publike Printing and disputing and if thou James Pope do not own them to be of you declare it publikely that so they may come to repentance and you be clear of their blood And whereas thou sayest the Lord in mercy hath made you to own him to be your life and light who also is leading you in the way to that light which is unapproachable c. I cannot but take notice of thy confusion who speaks like one that hath got a thing by rote but understandest not what thou sayest for is Christ your very light and life who is leading of you in the way to that light which is unapproachable and is not that same Christ that is the light and life also the way and the light which is unapproachable or is there one Christ that is the very life and light and leader in the way and approachable and another Christ that is the way that light which is unapproachable if thou knewest what thou said thou would know that the very life and light is unapproachable but dost thou not in those words manifest thy ignorance of Gods Christ the way to the Father and light of the world and life of men and by thy invention hast found out one Christ to be thy very light and life and is leading of thee in the way to another Christ which is unapproachable so that to one Christ thou art already come who is thy light and life and he is leading of thee in the way to that light which is unapproachable by this thou mayest see where thou art for in the world are Gods many and Lords many but to us there is but one God and one Lord Jesus and we know that an Idol is nothing howbeit there is not in all men this knowledge And whereas thou speaks of holy appointments and Christs Ordinances and who ever denyes them they are they which deny the light c. Thou shouldst speak plainly what those appointments are that thou intendest because you Baptists differ so much among your selves about them one saith Christ hath appointed hands to be laid on and another saith Christ hath appointed the washing of the Disciples feet and another saith anointing with oil is an Ordinance and another saith good chear or love feasts before the supper is an Ordinance and some say sprinkling is enough others say they must be dipped over head and ears and some say the bread must be cut others that it must be broken some say it must be taken and broken by him that eats it others say it must be broken before hand and given them by an officer of the Church and some say singing is an Ordinance and others say no and many other things which Baptists call Ordinances and appointments but which are thine or those that thou calls Christs appointments and Institutions thou hast not yet declared thy self seeing all these are called Christs appointments and ordinances by those who plead for them but I should counsel thee first to be reconciled to thy brethren and agree with them which be Christs appointments and which be mens inventions or mens misunderstanding of Christs words and then I may declare to thee which are to continue and which are at an end the substance being come until then take heed thou deal not with his Ordinances as thou hast dealt with his Name in calling that a plea for truth in love to truth which indeed is but a cover for deceit And you that are called Baptists above some others make it manifest your fellowship is not in the light because you have not fellowship one with another and therefore though you confess to the light yet I may say thou walks not in the light while thou imagines two Christs one to be the very life and light and the other to be a light unapproachable And whereas thou grants that it was the end of the Apostles Ministry to turn people from darkness to light and grants that many at this day tramples under foot the Son of God c. and I doubt not but all in his book that thou hast not answered thou grants and touching the Doctrine of Election and Reprobation thou saist that the people which Tho. White writes to do differ in their understandings of it and therefore shall pass it by c. Truly James thou grants so much and passest by such things that now I do not wonder thou understood not what it was that moved thee to write thy book except to see thy name in Print Art thou ashamed of thy Doctrine of Election and Reprobation how wilt thou avoid the censure of Christ saying Whosoever denies me before men him will I also deny before my Father which is in Heaven Mat. 10.33 And if we deny him he also will deny us 2 Tim. 2.12 And if you that are Baptists do differ in such a fundamental thing as Election and Reprobation how can ye be in the Faith or fellowship of the Gospel seeing it is the Election that obtains and the Reprobation that enters not And if you differ in your understandings about this how can you understand any thing aright seeing no Faith but the Faith of Gods Elect is sound and good nor no Salvation can be witnessed until Calling and Election be not onely known but made sure and yet the Baptists differ in your understandings about it And therefore must ye needs be at a loss and in an uncertain state as to your eternal welfare and happiness and alwayes lyable to be deceived for it is onely the Elect that are impossible to be deceived and therefore no marvel why you are so devided and deceived seeing you differ in your understandings about Election Hast hast hast unto the light of Christ that shines in your dark hearts that that may give you the understanding of Election and Reprobation for now it is evident that while thou and others are differing about Election and know it not your Religion is in vain and Christ the light you do not know and therefore no marvel thou speaks of one Christ that is thy light and life and another light that is unapproachable In thy fourth page thou seems to be displeased with Thomas White for cautioning of thee to take heed of deceit c. Is it not time to caution thee and others to take heed of deceit seeing you differ in your understanding about Election and none are out of a possibility of being deceived but the Elect and you and others differing in your understandings about it is it not time to cry to you Baptists above others
this place is to satisfie his Disciples that murmured about his telling them of of eating his flesh and drinking his blood and to take them off from looking at his outward fleshly presence as if his outward flesh or outward words were that which they were to feed upon or alwaies to expect to hear but there was another flesh to be known and other work to be read in the inward man by the Spirit for that quickneth and those words are Spirit and life but the flesh profiteth nothing so by this may the enlightned understanding see and read plainly the scope and drift of Christs Words and not to be spoken in that sence which thou and others in your vain minds conceive but have a deeper understanding which the children of light are acquainted withal so that the Query yet remains unanswered by thee viz. what then is the flesh that profiteth nothing And for thy answer to the second part of the Query viz. and what is that flesh after which Christ was once known yet henceforth know we him so no more to which thou answerest To know any man or Christ after the flesh it was to know according to the natural line of Abram and so according to the first Covenant but now know we him no more that is not by a natural descent but he that is in Christ is a new Creature and all the old things of the first Covenant are passed away and all things are become new and thou quotes Philip. 3.3 4 5. and saith We will help to clear the sence of this place viz. what is that flesh after which Christ was once known yet henceforth know we him so no more By this answer to the Query thou hast but manifested thy ignorance of Christ after the Spirit for doth the knowledge of Christ after the Spirit teach to deny the natural descent of Christ after the flesh seeing it is reckoned up as one of the Israelites Priviledges viz. of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came who is over all God blessed for ever Amen Rom. 9.4 5. Or is Christ changed from what he was Or is he the same yesterday and to day and for ever And doth the Apostle Paul teach to forget the Genealogy of Christ from Abram Or hath he forgotten his love to his brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh which he saith Rom. 9.3 he could wish himself separated from Christ for them Or doth he instrust children after they are come to the knowledge of Christ no more to know their Parents after the flesh or natural descent or any other man after any natural line Surely to say so had been crime enough against the people called Quakers then might thou have had some ground to cry out of their disrespect to Superiours and of the neglect of children in not obeying their Parents and subjects in not giving honour to Magistrates and of servants in not obeying of their Masters after the flesh which in thy Book thou seems to blame the Quakers for their remisness therein and dost thou do the same thing Or dost thou go about to interpret Pauls words to such a sence Whereas he himself was so far from denying his natural descent or linage or outward Priviledge that upon occasion he reckons it up again and again and stands upon it and is not condemned for it and doth he write to the Corinthians to know no man after the natural line or descent No not Christ himself What doth Paul make void Matthews and Lukes reckoning up of the natural line or descent of Christ from Abraham Are we no more to know Christ so What do the Christians with it in their Bibles then if Christ be no more to be known so But let us see if the Apostle Paul have one word tending that way in that place thou quotes 2 Cor. 5.16 For he is speaking how the love of Christ constrained them at the 14. ver and the cause of it because saith he we thus judge that if one died for all then were all dead and that he died for all that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves but unto him which died for them and rose again Wherefore from henceforth know we no man according to the flesh for so it is and some translations read it so yea though we have known Christ according to the flesh yet now henceforth know we him no more Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature old things are past away behold all things are become new And all things are of God who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ c. James Pope what ground is here for thy conceived imagination therefore wait upon the Lord in the light of his Son that thou may be made alive by God by being his workmanship in Christ Jesus and then thou wilt know how the word henceforth in the 15. ver answers to the word henceforth in the 16. ver and then thou wilt see how such inventions and interpretations of thy own brain are some of those old things which then thou wilt behold passing away as thou becomes a new Creation and all things will be of God and in that day thou wilt know the first Covenant and its vanishing by the new everlasting Covenant which is Gods free gift but known to none who are alive without the Law and have their first husband living such must know a bitter cup and a day of death before ever they can be married to Christ Take this in love to thy Soul James Pope for this is the Word of the Lord to thee and is of nearer concernment to thee then as yet thou art aware of And for that of Philip. 3.3 4 5. it proves nothing of thy conceit and invention but rather may serve to condemn thee who art comparing outward circumcision and outward washing together as being fitted to the New Testament as outward circumcision was to the Old but we are the Circumcision which worship God in the Spirit and have no confidence in the flesh neither Faith in any outward washing with outward water but our Faith stands in Christ alone in whom we are compleat both as to the true Circumcision and to the one Baptism and to the one bread in which we have Communion together in the body and as many as are joyned to the Lord are one Spirit and are of one heart and one Soul and do not deny any of the Gospel Ordinances or plead for the abrogating of them as thou saist the Query seems to suppose but this we plead against will-worship and all likenesses and dead imitations in the worship of God for by the Gospel of our Salvation are we made alive and do not rush into Gods service without fear and the leadings of his Spirit having in times past felt by experience and smarted for having a form of godliness but not sensible of the power and a name to live and accounted as worshippers but were in the