to God for me vnto suche confession doeth Saynte Iames exhorte vs sayinge Confesse your selues one to an other and praye eche one for other he doth not say confesse the vnto the priestes for as we oughte to praye the one for the other not the priestes onelye euen so ought we to reknowledge oure faultes one to an other coÌ„fesse our infirmities for to giue praises vnto God for the entertayning of amitie amoÌ„ge vs euerie one to seke the quietnes of other but I haue not founde in all the holye scripture that God hath coÌ„mâ—unded vs to go to tell all our synnes in the eate of a priest for that is impossible God doeth not so muche desire the reliting of our sinnes by perticuler Math. xvi as the coÌ„trition sighes sorowes of the herte the teares as we haue exemple in S. Petre which did much better coÌ„fesse his sinnes with his hert his eyes theÌ„ with mouth Natha I find that that thou saiest is very good but I woulde yet fayne knowe howe thys remissioÌ„ is practised in the church and howe we be partakers of it is it not by the bulles indulgence and pardons gyuen by the Pope Phy. It is by pardon and indulgence but not of paper and perchemente sealed wyth waxe or lead as those whych the Pope gyueth but by the indulgence and bulles that the celestiall father hath sente vs frome heauen by hys sonne Iesus Christe wryten in oure hertes wyth hys owne propre finger and by hys holy spirite sealed with his precious bloud ratified and confirmed by his death passion Natha The bulles and pardons of the pope be then nothynge worth Phy. Yes they profit them that gyueth them as towchyng theyr bodies bycause they take money for them but they brynge greate domage and hurte vnto theyr soules also vnto the bodyes and soules and goodes of theim that receyue them for in as much as they seke remission of synnes by anie other meane then by the bloude of our Lorde Iesus Christ they do not beleue the remissioÌ„ of sinnes the which they confesse the whych is in the church of Iesu christ wherfore they abide alwaies in their sinne daÌ„natioÌ„ subiectes to the cuâ—sse maledictioÌ„ that S. Petre dyd gyue vnto Simon Magus his monei Nata Thou wilte then saye ther â—â— no other true pope that maie giue vs indulgence and pardon for to deface and take awaye ours sinnes but Iesu Christ but by what meanes doth he make vs partakers of hys pardons and indulgences Phylype By the ministeri of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen that is to say by the predication preaching oâ— hys worde whiche is the true keye of knowledge Nathanaell And who then hath these keyes â—uc xi Math. xxiii Math. xvi Phy. The church to whom Christe hathe gyuen them and be put in vre and practise by al true euangelicall Apostles pastours ministers priestes Nata Haue they theÌ„ authoritie and power to pardon synnes to absolue men Phy. Not of them selues but by the ministration of the keyes and preachynge of the gospell Natha Speake thys more clearlye Phy. There is but the onelye God that may pardon and forgyue synnes and that maye gyue grace but wheÌ„ by his ministers he doth offre vnto vs Iesu Christe hys sonne by his worde and in hym remission of oure sinnes he that beleueth is saued vnbounde and deliuered frome his synnes and he that beleueth not abydeth bound and damned as the minister openeth vnto hym by the worde Natha Then the ministers be but seruauntes ambassadours haue no authoritie nor power â–ª but so much as theâ— take of the word in that they do faithfullie set forth theyr message and ambassade Phy. No for none can pardon the synnes but God when man doth open the word of god it is not maÌ„ that speaketh but it is the spirite of God that speaketh in hym by the whyche the bearer is bounde or losed accordyng to hys fayeth or vnbeleue Therfore dyd Iesus Christ blow toward his disciples gaue them the holie gost before he sayed vnto them whose synnes soeuer ye forgiue shal be forgiueÌ„ whose synnes soeuer ye retayne shal be retayned he woulde by that shewe that it was the holye Goste that dyd pardon them and not they whyche he dyd vse as hys instrumentes and messengers Natha I vnderstaÌ„d wel it is as an ambassadoure whyche if he fayethfullye execute hys Math. x. Ihon. x. chaâ—ge the prince confirmeth it that he doeth if he do otheâ—wyse he wyll not coÌ„firme it but punish hym greuouslye Phylype It is as a man that will open a gate it he haue no keye or if the keye that he hath be not mete for the locke he caÌ„ not opeÌ„ it and therfore in asmuche as Iesus Christâ— is the dore and the waye by the whyche onelye wee maye go vnto the father Rom. x. Luc. xi and wee can not goe vnto Iesus Christe but by fayeth whyche openeth vnto vs the dore and all the treasures that be in him and fayeth cometh by hearynge of the worde of God whych is the key of knowledge it doth wel folowe that al the power of the Apostles of theyr successours is there limited that he that hath not this key is no minister of christ Natha I may theÌ„ well vnderstande by thys that the power of the pope of byshopes and priestes doeth extende so farre as they folowe the worde of God and God doeth approue and confirme that whych they do by it that whyche they do wythout it or agaynste it he doeth condemne all Phy. If thou wylt se the practise of thys considre howe S. Peter dyd vse at Hierusalem he dyd open Iesus Christ penaunce and remission of sinnes in his name Practies of the keys Act. ii iii. vnto the Iewes they whyche the worde dyd touche at the herte and beleued in it were losed by hys ministerie accordynge to the promise of Iesu christ saing that he that beleueth Mark xvi is baptised shall be saued coÌ„trarye wise he that beleueth not shal be coÌ„demned it foloweth theÌ„ that al the infidels abide bound as by the open preachyng all the hearers be bound or vnbounde accordynge to theyr fayeth or vnbeleue euen so be wee by all the perticuler admonicions of the Gospell opened shewed forthe vnto vs by the seruauntes of God visitynge correckynge admonishynge or coÌ„solatyng of vs other in health or sikcenes Nathanaell Thys poynte is inoughe opened Resureccion of the fleshe declared let vs come nowe vnto that whych foloweth of the resurrectioÌ„ of the flesh and the lyfe eternall whych shal be for the end coÌ„clusioÌ„ wherfore be these two last articles put in Phy. For manye causes for wythout them al the religion were nothynge for if we beleue not the resurrection of the flesh that oure bodyes shoulde ryse agayne after thys i Cor. xv mortall lyfe we
myghtye wynde when he gaue hys holye spirite vnto hys Apostles Phylyp There is no doubte but he dyd it to The holye spirite sheweâ— in wynde signifie that as the winde suffereth the Rociers the litle and small trees and ouerthroweth by the rootes breaketh down broseth and maketh ruinous the greate myghtye trees So the vertue of thys holy spirite is to bring consolation to the hertes aflicted to purge the consciences to iudge the euile to ouerthrowe and sette downe the proude and to vpholde beare vp the weake and humble Natha If we wyll then haue anye thynge of God we muste obteygne it by Iesus Christe workynge in vs by hys holie spirite Phylip. It is euen so for by hym all the beleuers be vnite in one self body with their head Iesus Christe and be nourished and vinified in hym as by the soule and spirite all the meÌ„bres whyche be in one bodye be partakers of the goodnes which is in the same body Natha I beleue for that cause we put to by by after thys article the which appertayneth nyghe vnto the churche the whych is the bodye of Iesus Christ of the whyche thou speakeste of vinifiynge sanctifiynge by the same holy Gooste for we do saye by and by after the catholyke churche Phy. There is no doubte Natha In asmuch theÌ„ as we haue treated the other three partes The church of the crede that we be come to the fourth whyche concerneth the churche daughter of the celestiall father spouse of Iesus Christe tell me fyrste what thou callest the church Phy. Churche signifieth congregation and assemble Eph. v but I do take it and vnderstaÌ„d it here for the asseÌ„ble of the true and faythful christians whyche be vnite coÌ„ioyned by one selfe spirite and one selfe fayeth Natha Is there anye other church then the churche of the faithfull Phy. As we do cal the bodye and membres of Iesu Christe the churche so hath Antichriste hys body and membres whyche togyther make the malignaunt churche but for asmuche as that toucheth vs in nothynge we leaue it aparte and speake only here of the tru The malygnant church church of Iesu Christe therfore do we cal it holy Natha For what cause Phy. To put difference betwene hyr and the church of Antichriste and for asmuche as she is sanctified by the holye Goste for to be the temple and habitatioÌ„ of God Natha Wher fore doest thou also call it catholike what signifieth that worde catholyke Catholike Phy. It doeth signifie vniuersal and therfore do I saye I beleue the vniuersall churche bycause the churche doeth signifie all assembles and congregation where the fayethfull be assembled as is the church of Choâ—hi of Rome Galathiens and othere lyke I wyll declare that there is one catholyke churche that is to saye vniuersall and generall comprehending all the other the whyche is generallye sowen thorowe all the worlde onelye knowen of the onelye God whiche knoweth the hertes Natha If she be sowen thorowe all the world how is she a church seing that church signifieth coÌ„gregatioÌ„ asseÌ„ble so as thou sayeste it should seeme rather to disperation seperation and confution Phylype Therefore muste we considre thys The churche inuisible churche spirituallye and muste not thynke it to be a visible and local assemble sette and limited in a certaine place Nathana Howe vnderstandest thou thys or howe can the churche be inuisible seyng it is the assemble of the fayethful whyche be visible menne Phy. I denye not but that the men whyche be of the churche be visible but thys ioynynge togyther of the churche oughte not to be considered of the coniunction of the bodies but of the hertes spirits that be inuisible which none cause and therefore notwythstandinge I see the menne that be of thys churche wheÌ„ they be presente wyth me yet neuertheles I The churche mingeled thorowe all the worlde can not see them all because they be sparkeled abrode thorowe all the worlde and thoughe they myght be assembled all in one place yet coulde I not knowe them perfectlye because that the elected shal neuer be so wel seperated in thys worlde frome the infidels and reproued but there shall be alwayes manye hypocrites mingled amonge them the whyche we can not wel deserue nor iudge vnto such time as Iesus Christe shall make seperation of the Math. xxv goâ—es from the lambes and of the wheate froÌ„ the tares therfore do I saye that thys church is inuisible because the eye caÌ„ not se it nor the humayne iudgmeÌ„t wel deserue it therfore do we saye we beleue it for if we did se it at our eye wee beleued not but notwythstandynge we can not se it at our eye yet we beleue that the Lorde hathe hys elected whyche notwithstandynge they be sparkeled aboute thorowe all the worlde as touchynge theyr bodies be yet neuertheles so ioyned togither by the spirite of God that they be but one selfe bodye one selfe herte and one selfe soule Act. ii iiii Natha Thou wylt then saye that the vniuersall churche is a spirituall and inuisible asseÌ„ble of all the elected and chyldrene of God whyche be vpon the earth in what place so euer they be whyche notwythstandinge they be seperated and farre distaunte one frome a nother as concerninge theyr bodyes yet they be all vnite by one selfe spirite into one body misticall of the whyche Christe is the head Col. i. ii whyche dyed for to assemble the chyldrene of God that were sparkeled but if thys church be inuisible howe canste thou saye thou beleueste in hyr and that thou holdeste hyr fayth howe canste thou knowe what she is what she beleueth if thou know hir not Phylype I saye not that I beleue in hyr Natha Doeste not thou confesse I beleue in the holye Gost the holye vniuersal churche Phy. I do saye and confesse openlye I beleue in God the father and in Iesu Christ and in the holye Gooste but of the churche I do not saye I beleue in the holye churche but I beleue the holye churche Nathana Is it not all one what difference is there Phy. Verye greate For if I sayed I beleue in the holye church I should coÌ„fesse that I put my trust in hyr as I haue sayed before to beleue in God and the churche is not god but is an asseÌ„ble of men cursed is man that trusteth in man wherfore if I sayed I beleue Iere. xvii in hyr I should speake agaynste my self and should reuerse the fayeth which I haue coÌ„fessed hytherto Nathana Declare vnto me the differeÌ„ce Phi. By expositioÌ„s going befor it is opeÌ„ inough what seÌ„ce mi words should haue if I sayed I beleue in the church But when I do saye I beleue the holie churche that is to saye I beleue and confesse that ther is an assemble by the whyche I haue diffined the churche and that in the same I wyll lyue and dye Natha Howe wylt
heare of the the reste for the more I herken vnto the the greater pleasure I do take and the more I eate of thys meate whyche thou doeste minister vnto me the more I am hungrie Phylype Such is the nature of the chyldâ—en of God and of hys worde also whyche is so pleasaunte vnto the soule and conscience that of the greate pleasure they take in it they can neuer be satisfied and fylled Seyng therfore that thou arte in so good appetite to the ende I make the no longer langoure lette vs returne vnto oure matter and aske me questions as thou haste begone Natha It doeth followe after thys fyrste article that we haue begone and treated of oure The conception Iesu christ Timo. iii. Gene. xxii Iohn i. Lorde Iesus Christe that he was conceyued by the holy Gost borne of the virgin Marie What vnderstaÌ„dest thou bi these wordes Phylype I confesse that Iesus Christ is trulye and verye man in the whyche God hathe bene opened shewed in the flesh accordynge to the promises made vnto Abraham and Dauid and accordynge to that whyche the Prophetes had before sayed Nath. In this coÌ„ceptioÌ„ wherin god this eternall diuine worde hath bene made fleshe hathe it bene turned and conuerted from the diuine substaunce into humain flesh Phylype That shoulde be a greate absurditie but in takynge the humayne flesh he hath vuited the diuine nature wyth oure humaine nature man wyth God the heauen wyth the earth wythout conuertynge the diuinitie into fleshe nor yet flesh into deitie wythout coÌ„foundynge or minglynge the one wyth the other but conioynyng two natures wythout conuertion confusion or of anye maner of permutation in the person of oure Lord Iesus Christ being very god of the diuine substauÌ„ce very manne of oure flesh bloud and bones Nathana There is then two natures in oure Lordes Iesus Christe the one diuine and the other humayne Phy. Otherwyse shoulde he The deuine humayne nature in Iesus Christe not be Christe and the sauiour of men Natha Wherfore Phy. Bycause that if he were not God he should not haue power to saue if he had not bene maÌ„ he had not borne oure infirmities synnes and langoures nor we shoulde not haue suche assuraunce of the remission of oure synnes excepte oure fleshe in hym had borne it Natha What nede was it that he was made man Phy. For to confound Sathan hys aduersarie and the better to open the greate vertue and power of God hys charite inestimable loue toward meÌ„ Natha How hath SataÌ„ bene confounded by the humanitie of Iesus i. Cor. i. Christ Phy. In that that SathaÌ„ had thought by the in firmitie of the flesh to haue destroied the worke of God God by the same weake flesh woulde restore that whyche was loste declaryng therby that his weaknes is stronger then all the power of SathaÌ„ of al men and yet is there other reasons Nathanaell What be they Phylipe In as muche as the worlde coulde not knowe God by the wisdome of the same he woulde by the foleishnes of the crosse saue the beleuers Nathanaell What is that for to saye Phy. That in asmuche as men coulde not knowe God in hys greatenes and wisdome and by the creation of all thynges he woulde by thys meane beynge nearer vnto oure humaine infirmitie whyche the wise meÌ„ of thys world did esteme but for follye or folyshnes gyue saluation vnto his Natha And was there no other meane more propre and conueniente Phy. It pleased hym to chose electe thys as moste conueniente Nathanael Wherefore Phy. Bycause that consideringe the humayne infirmitie and fraylues of oure corrupte nature it was not possible better to declare hys goodnes charite and mercye towardes men nor no waye to giue hym greater consolation and assuraunce of hys saluation Natha Make me wel to vnderstand this Phy. Man was by hys sinne condemned vnto death maledictioÌ„ eternal daÌ„natioÌ„ and had theÌ„ nede to be boughte againe deliuered or els he muste haue bene lost Na. I do coÌ„fesse it Phy. Then for to be bought and deliuered it muste neades be that some one muste haue satisfied for hym and payed his raunsome Natha And myght not that haue bene doue but by Iesus Christe Phylype No. Natha Wherefore Phy Bycause that all men were in one selfe necessitie subiection and bondage so that there was none that coulde satifie for hym selfe wherefore they had all neede of an other to paye that raunsome Nathana But seynge that God is all mercifull myght he not haue pardoned man without anye maner of satisfaction Phylype He myght do all that pleased hym but he would so declare hys Iustice wyth hys mercye for as he is mercifull so is he also Iuste Nathanaell Howe hathe he by that meane declared hys Iustice mercie Phy. In that that wher A solution worthye to be noted of al meÌ„ man had sinned the iustice of god did remaine that he were punished of the other part his mercie did moue him to haue pitie of him to take hym to hys mercie Nathanaell These be two thynges whyche seme verye repugnaunte and contrarie Phy. And therefore the Lorde hath satisfied his iustice in punishynge the synne of man in his sonne Iesus Christe which hath suffered the death borne the Ice and furie and maledictioÌ„ of God whiche maÌ„ Gala iii by his synne had merited deserued Natha And if he had punished man mighte not man also haue satisfied Phy. No for in asmuch as all men were synners and subiectes vnto the cursse and malediction of the lawe the which malediction and vengeaunce of God had vtterly destroied consumed and brought hym downe into hell for it is so terrible heauye that no man myght haue borne it no not the Angels theÌ„ selues Natha Yet hathe it not for al that coÌ„sumed brought down Iesu Christ Phylip. No for seynge that he was wythout sinne or spotte the death synne hell nor SataÌ„ the prince of the world could do nothing against him Natha And how hath he satisfied by his death Phi. In that that he was not detter beholdynge nor bounde yet neuertheles hath paied as a detter in that that he hath satisfied vnto the Iustice of god wherfore seynge that he not being by anie maner of meanes detter nor bouÌ„de yet hath paied satisfied his satisfactioÌ„ of the which he him selfe had no nede had serued for them that beleue for the which he hath answered and fully satisfied Natha That is then the cause wherefore he hath taken the humayne fleshe Phy. Yea certaynlye for in asmuch as it must neades haue bene that the fleshe whyche had synned al meÌ„ also should make satisfactioÌ„ that none could nor might do it but the sonne of God nor the sonne of God in his diuinitie coulde not suffre nor die therefore hath he taken hys bodye lyke vnto ours by the which he hath redemed vs and hathe borne oure infirmities Natha
to considre in what signification the holye scripture doeth vse it Natha That is that whych I do aske Phy. We do fynde hel in the vsage of the holye Gene. xliiii Esai xxiiii scriptures and principally in the old testament for the death for the graue and for the state and condition of them that be departed of the which al the scripture doth beare wytnes therfor do we cal it hel which is a word takē of latin doth signifie as much as a low inferior place bicause we do put the bodie in the graue within the earth lower thē our habitatiō Natha Is that the propre significatiō Phyly That is the fyrste that it doeth signifie in the scriptures Nata Is there thē other Phy. Yea but they do hange vpon the same For as the death and the graue is the ende cōsummation of man as concernynge thys worlde euen so hell is taken for the extreme daungers miseries dolors anguishes that man may suffer and by the which he is darkned or brought vnto death Nathanael Vnderstādeste thou none other thynge by hell Phylype It is also likewise takē sūtime for the paine dew for sinne for the Iudgemente and wrathe of God and for the bottome and mischiefe of all euyll thynges of all miseries and vnhappines and bycause 〈◊〉 xvi Math. xvi that in the death and in the graue there is no thynge but stynkynge infection darknes and perpetuall horror it is somtyme taken for to siguifie the state cōdicion and the place of the damned otherwyse called Gehenue bycause that theyr death is not vnto lyfe that they Luke xvi Marc. v do abyde in the same in perpetuall darkenes of the whyche the graue is theyr beginnyng Natha Accordynge to whyche of these significations ought we to vnderstāde that Iesus Christe is descended into hell Phy. Accordynge vnto all Natha Howe so Phy. Fyrste thou muste note that he doth not saye in the singuler numbre He is discended into hell as thoughe he dyd speake of a place certayne wherunto he was goone But in the plurell He is descended to the helles comprehendynge all that which he had sayed before He hath suffred vndre ponce Pilate crucified dead and buried Natha And did it not suffice to haue already sayed the same by other wordes for if discendyd into hels doeth signifie no further what nede was it to put to this article Phy. Albeit that it do comprehende al that whyche alreadye hath bene sayed yet is it not put to without cause for it doeth better open and declare that whiche hath bene sayed doeth also better declare vnto vs the vertue and efficatie of the death and passiō of our Lord Iesus Christ doeth gyue vs to vnderstād what condemnation he hath borne how farre the vertue of hys death hath extēded Natha Expounde the same alitle better vnto me by particulers Phi. When oure Lord Iesus Christe had suffered and endured so many outrages blasphemies as when he dyd sweate bloude and was ful of anguish in his Luke xxii Math. xvi soule euen vnto the death and was shamfullie hāged betwene theues as forsakē of God of al creaturs without helpe fauour or cōsolatiō and dyd yelde vp his spirite vpon the tree of the crosse where he was hanged bearing the curse Ire and furore of God which is the verye hell felynge in hym selfe the condempnation paines and sorowes which we had deserued for oure synnes then was he truly descended into hels whych had wened to haue deuoured him but they coulde not bicause he was wythout sinne Nathana Is he no otherwise discended into hel Phy. He was also discended whē he was put Ephe. iiii into the sepulchre is discended into the lowe partes of the earth as the Apostle doth saye Nathana Dyd not hys soule and hys spirite discend to the sayntes fathers whych were dead before hys commynge Phylyp Yes Natha Where were they Phy. In the bosom of Abraham Natha What place was that Phy. The place of reste and blessednes wher all they were receyned whiche were deade in that fayeth of Abraham whiche is the fayeth in oure Lorde Iesus Christe Natha Is that limbo wher they be depriued of all the Ioyes of Paradise Phy. I haue not reade in any place in all the holye scripture that maketh mention of anye such limbo Natha was it thē in purgatorie Phy. Iesus Christ descended wel into purgatorie when he dyd humble caste down hym selfe euen vnto the mooste bitter death of the crosse sheadynge hys precious bloude for to washe purge our synnes for the same dyd obteine remission and grace other purgatory doeth not the scripture knowe but that same whyche hath efficatie in vs by fayth whyche purifieth the hertes Natha Howe is he then descended to the fathers and where was the bosome of Abraham Phy. I haue sayed that hell signifieth also the estate and cōditiō of thē that be dead departed wherfore when Iesus Christe was deade and buried he was discēded to them that be dead and departed that is to saye that he is dead for them and hathe borne the paine that they hadde merited and deserued after suche sorte that the vertue force and efficatie of the deathe of Iesus is extended not onelye vnto them whyche were alyue but also vnto al thē whyche haue bene sēce Adam and were dead Gene. iii. in the fayeth of that promised seede vnto the whyche Iesus Christ hath bene made felow dyeinge as they and descendynge into the graue as they to the ende that they should be partakers of the resurrection and glorye of hym whyche is sauiour of the liuyng dead Nath. It seameth by thy wordes that thou doeste abolyshe boeth limbo and purgatorie Phy. God furbide that I should aboleish purgatorie for it is the same in the whych I haue all my hope wythout the whych I shoulde wholli dispaire of my saluatiō for I do know well that no poluted and vncleane thynge cā Cor. xv entre into the kyngdome of heauen except it be purged made cleane but in dede I know no other purgatorie but the bloude of Iesus The true purgatorie Christe nor yet ani fyre whiche hath power vertue to pourge our sinnes but that of hys holie spirite as for limbo I could neuer find anie in al the holie scripture I could neuer see so mani diuers estates of thē that be departed as the priests mōkes fain lodging some in paradice other in hell other in purgatorie other in limbo I do not find in the holi scriptur but of ii estates cōdicions the whiche oure Lorde Iesus Christ hath represēted and sette forthe vnto vs in the exemple of the Ryche man and Lazarus there is but one estate of the happie and blessed and another of the reproued Natha Vnto whych of those dyd Iesus Christe descende Phyly Vnto boeth but in diuers sorties he is discended to the