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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88101	A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182	106,562	123

passion is more familiarly the offence of the Romish wranglers who are chosen of purpose by their party for Disputants because of their zeal to the cause which kindles quickly into choler as we have partly observed in Eccius and Gretz●r and may further note in one of Doctor Featleys Antagonists Doctor Eglestone who was so transported with passion as to say to him t The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own Net par 3. p. 128. I will be hanged at the next Gallows if I make you not confess that it implies no contradiction for an accident to be without a subject if he wou'd have stood to his word he had been sure to be hanged for it was not in his power to force the Doctor to such a confession Fourthly The Disputants ought to be pious that out of conscience they may prefer Verity before Victory Of this mind doubtless was the Apostle Paul when he professed he could do nothing against u Victoriâ nihil dulcius Cicer. Act. in verrem fol. 876. the truth 2 Cor. 13.8 to a corrupt and carnal mind nothing is more sweet then victory but if truth appear to have the preeminence a godly man will not be ashamed to yield unto it though with change of his opinion for he takes not himself to be of so great authority and fame as to be ashamed that he erred as w Ne erubescas de commutatione sententiae non es tantae authoritatis famae ut errasse te pudeat Hieron Apolog. advers Ruffin Tom. 2. p. 199. Hierom said to Ruffinus do nothing through strife or vain glory Phil. 2.3 as the Papists did against the Protestants in the Councel of Trent x Hist of the Councel of Trent l. 1. An. 1530. when as Cardinal Langi Arch-Bishop of Saltzburg said that the Reformation of the Mass was honest the liberty of meats convenient but that a poor Monk meaning Luther should reform all was not to be endured some conceive it matter of moment that the Disputants be matched in quality and calling as in the y The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own Net p. 3. p. 118 119. Disputation betwixt Master Walker and Doctor Egleston Before I dispute upon the question saith Mr. Walker I desire to know your quality and calling whether you be a professed Popish Priest or no Dr. Egleston I am a Roman Catholick not a Priest but a Doctor of Physick Mr. Walker I desire then another Adversary some of the Priests here present that we may dispute on equal terms I hold the calling of a Protestant Preacher and Divines more honourable then any Popish Priesthood and therefore if your Priests think themselves too good to dispute with me you shall not brag that your Lay-men are fit matches to dispute with Protestant Preachers and Divines Dr. Egleston Mr. Walker you being a Divine ought to give me though a Lay-man the best satisfaction you can Mr. Walker I am ready to give you satisfaction if you come as a Layman ought to a Divine that is with a desire to hear and to be instructed in all humility not with a mind to contradict and oppose the truth And so they proceeded to Disputation as in the relation quoted in the Margin and it may be the Doctor of Physick was a better Divine then the Priests that were present Doctor Brian in this respect might have had more just cause of disdain to take Mr. Only for his match then Mr. Walker Doctor Egloston since the disparity was more betwixt them two then betwixt a Divine that was not a Doctor and a Doctor that was not a Divine This for the qualification of the Disputants Now secondly for a Moderator or President to manage the disputation with decency and order It is requisite that some person of worth for wisdom and gravity and if it may be also of power and authority so that his power be not byassed by partiality on either side be President and Moderator to mannage the disputation with order and decency for prevention of vain jangling and confusion when disputations are national and particularly authorized by the supreme power that power commonly makes choice of a President or of Commissioners to preside over the disputation so did the Emperour z Aug. Breric Collat. Praefa Tom. 7. par 1. p. 684. Honorius who published an Edict for disputation betwixt the Catholicks and Donatists at Carthage and by the same Edict ordained one to preside in the disputation who was called a Judge So did the Emperour a Sleyd Com. l. 16. p. 353. Charles in the Conference at Ratisbone In that at Poysie in France betwixt Beza and the Popish party Beza and those of his b Hist of the Councel of Trent l. 5. p. 451. side desired that the King and his Councel would be present to govern the action with especial exception against the Clergy that none of them might preside because they were their professed adversaries and some of them unwilling that the Protestants should be gratified in that request would have perswaded the Queen Mother to keep her son King Charles away lest being young he should be led away by the plausibility of error So in the concertation at Fountainbleau betwixt the Lord Morney and the Bishop of Eureux King Henry the Fourth was prsent and President the first day yet appointed he Commissioners because himselfe would not be engaged to attend the debate until it were ended though he did so because it brake off after one day by the sickness of the Lord Morney as hath been said before In the publick Disputations at Oxford and Cambridg betwixt the Protestants and Papists in King Edward the sixths time certain Commissioners were sent in the name of c Fox Martyr vol. 2. p. 756. col 2. 760. col 2. Visitors to the number of five to each University to oversee the Disputation orderly carried on and to make report of it to His Majesty In the three dayes conference at Hampton Court King James himself was President and it was well he was so else some of the Prelates would have soon put to silence Doctor Reynolds and his assistants for when that Reverend Religious and Learned Doctor did but modestly observe a d The second dayes conference at Hampton Court p. 25. Contradiction in the Service Book about Confirmation one place confessing it was a depraved imitation of the Apostles another grounding it upon their example Act. 8.9 and thereupon desired that the contradictions might be considered and the ground of conformation examined the Bishop of London cut him off and kneeling down most humbly desired His Majesty that the ancient Canon might be remembred which saith Schismatici contra Episcopos non sunt and endi was there any thing in the Doctors speech which deserved so sharp a censure as that for that he should be called a schismatick such a schismatick as might not be suffered to speak because that

and mine own I professe my self Sir Your sincerely devoted servant JOHN LEY ERRATA IN the Epistle to Samuel Ebrall Esq in the second Page l. 6. r. Mr. O. Pag. 1. l. 7. dele two r. Parenthesis p. 2. l. 18. r. your p. 3. l. 5. r. altercation P. 4. in marg r. arrogantia p. 5. l. 5. r. 40. in marg r. 26. r. Roscius l. 29. r. discovered p. 6. r. l. 20. r. Trapp l. 18. r. Butler p. 7. l. 1. r. catholicks p. 8. l. 19. r. may p. 10. l. 11. r. Venice p. 15. marg r. quod p. 16. l. 37. r. challenges p. 19. l. 25. r. 1. of God p. 21. l. 24. of man p. 22. l. 11. r. Genoa l. 29. r. all night p. 26. l. 1. r. rightly in marg r. deletum p. 28. l. 2. r. dissentire l. 8. adde for p. 29. in marg r. Possed p. 34. l. 6. r. to l. 22. r. things in marg r. ab p. 35. l. 26. r. Expositors p. 37. l. 5. r. the. p. 38. l. 29. r. Papinus p. 41. l. 12. r. Phflugius p. 44. l. 5. adde day p. 46. l. 33. add these l. 34. adde Campian l. 35. adde the Conference p. 47. l. 15. adde it p. 48 Chap. V. Contents of the Chap. adde with the causes of them l. 22. r. was p. 49. l. 1. r. two p. 51. l. 20. r. 1574. p. 53. l. 31. adde it l. 36. adde as l. 38. adde forenoted l. 39. r. some adde a doubt d. 54. l. 8. dele is p. 55. l. 15. dele in another Chapter p. 58. l. 10. adde as a fained l. 34. add to doubtful debate p. 62. l. 17. dele for l. 33. dele for Costerus p. 63. l. 7. r. and. l. 19. r. Costerus p. 69. l. 3. r. fifty l. 16. adde In. p. 94. l. 1. r. hinges l. 26. adde them p. 95. l. 21. adde a man to sleep p. 97. l. 8. r. helpless p. 100. over against l. 6. r. in marg So in the Disputation at Kenelnsworth published by Mr. O. P. 50. p. 124. l. 10. r. like To the VVORSHIPFULL my very worthy Friend Samuel Ebrall Esq Sir YOu were an hearer as I have heard of the Disputation at Killingworth betwixt Dr. John Brian and John Onely but as he hath set it forth in print it would be more suitable to say Dr. John Onely and John Brian so far hath the arrogancy of the man magnified himself without due respect to the modesty of a Christian the ingenuity of a Scholar and the discretion of an ordinary rationall man and so much hath he vilified the Doctor in another book published by him since whom all men who know him and are of any note for Learning and Religion highly honour for a very eminent degree of them both and for his excellent faculty and indefatigable diligence in Preaching and Catechising there be very few who are comparable to him Nor do I know Mr. Onely his match among the Antipaedobaptists as he calleth his Assistants at the disputation at Kill for insolence of Spirit supercilious contempt of such as are not taken with his Tenets Some I am sure there are who though they have too much affinity with some of his fancies and opinions shew much mansuetude and civility to those that steer their Ministeriall and Christian course by other principles yea and they hold religious communion with them in publick ordinances not distinctive But Mr. Onely as he hath a name of singularity so he is the fitter to be the ringleader of some notorious Schisme like Primianus a Donatist in the Collation at Carthage to whom if a denomination had been given him out of a time of faction according to his learning and manners it must have been not Primianus but Ultimianus This with my discourse of Disputations in matter of Religion mine animadversions on the printed Disputation hold at Kill and on Mr. D. his second book and my desired advice to Dr. Brian concerning it whether to answer him or no I have presented to publick view with a particular addresse unto your self that of a true and intelligent witnesse you may become an equall and competent judge of the difference betwixt the Dr. and Mr. O. super tota materia as now it is drawn out in his second book and I was glad of this occasion to testifie how much contentment I take in the situation of my Residence as in vicinity to yours whereby I have the opportunity of enjoying your good neighbourhood your friendly visits and many other affectionate offices whereto there shall be no want of any answerable returnes which come within the capacity of the hearty prayers and best observance of Your faithfull friend and humble servant JOHN LEY For the very Reverend his highly honoured Friend Mr. Iohn Ley Pastor of Solyhull Reverend Sir YOur Consolatory Letters I cannot sufficiently bless God and You for and therefore do again return my most humble and hearty thanks for your very great labour of love therein expressed withal earnestly craving leave to make them publick the doing whereof will I am assured redound much to the glory of God erecting many souls dejected for the like loss and furtherance of your own glorious reward in the great day of account and refreshing which shall come from the presence of the Lord. Sir there is another trouble fallen upon my spirit wherewith I take the boldness to acquaint you occasioned by an Examination of some of my Arguments for the truth of our Parochial Churches by my Antagonist John Onley which hath been abroad as I hear a long time but lately came to my notice by a Minister 20. miles distant I find the Book so full of bitterness and arrogancy that I question whether it be better to let the man alone or to answer him according to his folly I have sent it to you requesting your perusal thereof and your advice what I shall doe with all convenient speed which shall lay a further Obligation upon Sir your Fellow-labourer in the work of the Lord and bounden servant JOHN BRIAN To which Letter of Dr. Brian a short and summary answer is returned in the next leaf a full one in the whole discourse following A Table of the Contents of each Chapter CHAP. I. HOw some have been and are averse from or adverse to disputations in Religion how far and for what reasons pag. 3. CHAP. II. Of a contrary disposition in some too much addicted to disputation in being too forward to make or accept of offers of dispute and multiplying of needless and presumptuous questions and resolutions in matters of Religion p. 12. CHAP. III. That disputations on matters of Religion are warrantable by Scripture and Reason and not onely lawful but sometimes also expedient and profitable p. 17. CHAP. IV. An Historical collection of Disputations of several sorts principally concerning differences in matters of Religion in two Sections the 1. Containing examples from the Apostles to Luther 2. Of examples from Luther to the present

been that ended but the Bishops of Valence told them it was dishonourable Therefore on the 24 day it was again assembled in presence of the Queen and Princes wherein Beza spake of the Church Conditions and Authority thereof Of Councels Of the dignity of the Scriptures So the History of Trent hit the m Serres History of France p. 738. French History that day Beza made answer to the Cardinal and disputed with Espenceus and Sainctes and v. 26. he treated with him again of the Lords Supper the other Ministers likewise replied to some Objections of other Doctors of the Sorbon and finally all was converted into private Conferences without any resolution or conclusion that might end these troubles By the appointment of Sigismu●d King of Poland Anno 1566. there was a Disputation appointed betwixt the new Arrians and those who professed the contrary Faith unto them at Petricovia in Poland Here there was somewhat to do about Presidentship whether there should be one or more which was resolved that by turns one of each should preside and being Papists who managed the dispute against the Arrians they chose him for the Scribe who had been a Scribler against Calvin for his n Calv. Opuse p. 682 683 684. ad fratres Polonos Epistles ad fratres Polonos The Arrians would not yield to say Amen to the prayer of their opposites because they would not acknowledge a God in Trinity of Persons After this they soon brake off without any fruit of their Conferences as o Possevin Biblioth Select Tom. 1. c. 13. p. 363. Anno. 1572. Possevine who setteth down the dispute reporteth From that year to 1590 p Ant. Possev Apparat. Sacer vol. 1. p. 480. Possevine gives a List of 21 Disputations of several Popish Points held in several Popish Universities but they were but such Disputations as Bellarmines at Rome without a personal opponent or if with one not real and serious but onely personated Stanislaus Roscius Anno 1574. Melch. Adam in vita Bullingeri p. 502. as I have observed in the 1 Chapter that he may reproch the Religion of the Protestants for want of unity alledgeth That from the Disputation at Lipsia Anne 1519. to their Synod in Vilna 1590. they have had above 100 Meetings Conferences Disputations Councels and Synods and yet cannot reconcile themselves to one another wherein he sheweth himself a malicious and slanderous Papist and to speak with reference to r Ferrar. Lexic Geogr. p. 432. col 1. fin Vilna in Sarmatia a chief City of Lithuania in Poland where Roscius was an Abbot it was at Vilna where the Jesuit ſ Bucolz chron p. 778. Anno 1584. Scarga rang the Bell to a Parisian Massacre of the Protestants of that City where for their too good agreement in the truth in their conceits they would make them agree in tribulation for it under their remorsless cruelty though I confess the dissention I finde in divers of their meetings is so much that I am loth to mention them Betwixt these two Chronological terms Anno 1586. Biblioth Parv. Tom. 1. Graec. Lat. à p. 194 ad 272. there was publish'd a dispute betwixt Gregentius Archiepisc Tophrensis so he is called with Herbanus a Jew wherein Gregantius argueth copiously and vigorously for the Christian against the Jewish Religion Philip Mornay Lord of Plessies Governor of Saumur Anno 1600. Joh. de Serres gen Hist of France much augmented out of approved Authors by Edw. Grims p. 1052. accused by the B shop of Eureux to have committed 500 falshoods in his Book against the Mass presented a Petition to K. Henry IV. That his Majesty would be pleased to appoint Commissioners to examine every passage of Scripture cited in his Book The King yielded to his motion and on the fourth of May appointed a Conference betwixt them which began that day in the great Hall at Fountainbleau Who were the Commissioners and in what equipage they were placed there is fully set down in the general History of France written by John Serres in the Reign of Henry IV. B fore the Disputation began it was declared That it should not bring into debate matters of Doctrine of either Religion but onely be confined to the Exceptions of the Bishop and the Answers of the Lord Mornay made unto them Who first promised in the general Ibid. that his hope was That when he should be equally examined all men should finde that he had carried himself faithfully and diligently although it were not to be held strange if in five thousand passages or more they have found some wherein his eye his memory or his judgement hath wavered Oh said he that the Books of the Roman Church which have been written within this hundred years were examined with this rigour how many should you find that could endure this Trial Finally he professed that with his Majesties leave this act was particular and could not prejudice the Doctrine of the Reformed Churches of that Realm which had been before him and should be after him And so they entred into the matter “ French Hist p. 1053. But after the first days debate Mornay fell very sick so the dispute in that manner proceeded no further Whereof we shall speak more in the next Chapter The Disputes of Peter de Moulin with the Jesuites and other Papists in France are too many to be brought into this Catalogue wherein I desire to be brief as also those of D. Featly our acute Countryman both in England and in France Anno 1603. was the Conference or Disputation at Hampton Court before King James The w The first days conference at Hampton Court p. 1 2. parties of opposite opinions were on the one side the Archbishop of Canterbury the Bishops of London Durham Winchester Worcester St. Davids Chichester Carlisle and Peterborough the D●ans of the Chappel Worcester Westminster Pauls Chester Windsor with Dr. Field and Dr. King Archdeacon of Notingham and on the other Dr. Reynolds Mr. Spa●k● Mr. Knewstubs and Mr. Chaderton Agents for the Millenary plaintiffs as Dr. Barlow Dean of Chester the partial Penman of that Conference calleth them not that they were Chiliasts or Millenaries as many are by a mistaken sense of Revel 20.6 but because they agreed much with them who exhibited a Petition to the King with the Subscription of a thousand Ministers The matters disliked or questioned were reduced by Dr. Reynolds the Fore-man to these * Ibid. p. 23. four Heads First that the Doctrine of the Church might be preserved in purity according to Gods Word Secondly that good Pastors might be planted in all places to preach the same Thirdly that Church government might be sincerely ministred according to Gods Word Fourthly that the Book of Common-prayer might be fitted to more increase of piety Doctor Francis Write had two Disputations with Fisher the Jesuite An. 1622. the latter of them in the presence of King James With the

Recusants and for the rest which were Noble men Gentlemen and Gentlewomen of quality with some few Divines there was not any one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they have openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the Protestant Religion by it and Mr. Doctor Featlys Refutation of an Answer to the Book intituled the Fisher c. p. 130. Buggs himselfe whose satisfaction by this conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church gave thanks after the Disputation to Sir Humph. Lynde for the meeting and assured him that he was well resolved now of his Religion that he saw plainly it was but the Jesuites bragging without proofs and whereas formerly by their Sophistical perswasions be was in some doubt of the Church he is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that he doth utterly disclaim the Popish Priests company and their Doctrine also Though it be a wicked thing to lye albeit it were for a good intent yea for the glory of God Iob 13.7 Rom. 3.7 8. and no wickedness as such is matter of laughter but rather of sorrow yet they mingle such folly and absurdity with their lying as the Priests of Baal did with worshipping of their Idol that they deserve to be derided for it as they were by the Prophet Elijah 1 King 18.26 27. and the more because it is frequent with them and by some of the approved as a pious fraud but sometimes their malignity produceth sad effects especially of publick disputes as is observable concerning the Dispute of that Illustrious and Incomparable man the Lord Morney as Doctor e Illustri incomparabili viro Domino Philippo Mornayo c. Epist dedicat praefix Critic Sacr. Rivet calls him and the Bishop of Eureux at Fountainbleau forementioned the Noble and Learned Lord confiding in the truth of his Allegations which were excepted against as hath been said wanting the use of his own Library and forced to make use of his Adversaries Books they brought him one Book over night of one Edition another in the morning of another and withal as f Doctor Sutlives Answer to Parsons l. 3. c. 12. and out of him Mr. Birkbeck in his Answer to the Antidotist added to the second Edition of the Protestants Evid p. 474. some have written put a powder into the places quoted the smell whereof was like to have cost him his life that he g Serres French Hist Anno 1600. p. 1053. fell very sick upon the first days conference so as they could proceed no farther is testified in the report of their Dispute in the French History and some of his Adversaries spake suspiciously of his sickness as if it were more in his mind then in his Body being astonisshed with the success of the praludium of that dayes Velitation which h Plessaeus attonitus successu praecedentis velitationis apud Gisbertum Voetium de desperata causa papatus l. 3. sect 2. p 681. col 2. Gisbertus Voetius disproves and concerning the cause of his disease he saith nothing of poyson because he takes it from such Authors of the Popish party as if they knew it to be true would rather conceal it if they could then let it come abroad into the world But the matter is probable enough First because there are such poysons as will not onely make one sick but kill him too though he neither eat them nor drink them as by anointing the leaves of a book with poyson whereby i Berkbeck ex Binfield ubi ante Averroes is said to have killed Avicen by poysoning of clothes arms seats saddles whereof k Joh. Mariana de Rege c. l. 1. c. 7. p. 67. Mariana the Jesuite shewes many examples in his book De Rege and Regis Institutiones yea a man may be killed by carrying a poysoned Torch l Anno 1574. Carolus Cardinalis Lotharingiae diem obiit non sine suspicione veneni facis per noctent praelatae pestifero odore cerebro corrupto Bucolz Index chronol p. 638. ex Thuano so was the Cardinal of Loraine a great and busie man in the Councel of Trent poysoned with the smoke of a Torch carried before him in the night Secondly it is not improbable that some of the Lord Morney or Plesses enemies might both know that there were such poysons and where to procure them and how to apply them Haereticis obstinatis beneficium est quod de hac vita tollantur nam quò diutiùs vivunt cò plures errores excogitāt plures pervertunt ma jorem sibi damnationem acquirunt Bellarm. Tom. 2. l. 3. dc Laicis c. 21. verbis ultimis for it seems by that we now noted of the Cardinal of Loraine which fell out An. 47.15 that destructive arts were neither unknown nor unpracticed at that time and the dispute betwixt the L. M. and the Bishop of Eureux was 26. years after Any such wickedness is the more probable of a Papist against a Protestant because of the Popish Doctrine which is this it is a benefit for obstinate Hereticks to be taken out of this life for the longer they l●ve the more errors they invent and the more they pervert and procure to themselves the greater damnation It was not to be expected but the disputation being broken off by the L. M. his occasion the Papists would insult and report whatsoever might make for their own glory and his disparagement as indeed they did but how poorly the Popish Bishop began to make good his charge and challenge against the L. M. the learned Reader may see by that which m Gisbert Voetius de desperata causa papatus l. 3. Sect. 2. c. 10. à p. 680 ad 692. Gisbert Voetius hath written of it in his Book Of the desperate cause of the Papacy and by the excellent n A refutation of calumnious relation of the conference of Monsieur Plessis and Monsieur of Eureux by one against N. D. I. P. 3. part printed by Arn. Hatfield An. 1600. Refutation of the Tract set out by the L. M. after the Dispute for his own just defence to which the Bishop his Adversary o Perronus ad illum librum nunquam respondit Ibid. And this was 35. years after for Voetius his book was printed An. 1655. and the dispute was An. 1600. and this Apologet. Treat soon after never made any answer But the most certain and remarkable issue or effect of this Dispute was that p Serres French History ad Ann. 1600. p. 1053. Canoy one of the Commissioners for the Dispute President in the Chamber of the Edict at Charters left his profession of the Reformed Religion and became a Romish Catholick many thought that Casaubon the other Protestant Commissioner and Greek Reader to King H. the Fourth would have followed the same course but he left not the world long in this opinion having

his possession and put him to sue for his tenth part as one who took that defrauding Doctrine from Mr. O. his Church though now he be gone beyond it whither he as well as Mr. Fisher may follow and overtake him and by the practise of it hath for three years together robbed the Minister of his Right inning it with his own nine parts into his Barn and persisting in his dishonest dealing with such Impudence as to contemn the Law and to call him Thief who doth but with lenity and mildness require an account of his injurious dealing And hence it cometh to pass that there is a vast difference betwixt the true value of a Benefice and that which it yeeldeth to the Incumbent Pastor that may be well worth 400 pounds per Annum and this not amount to half so much hire to him that laboureth in the Word and Doctrine And many can speak much herein upon certain experience and yet many times a rackt rate and estimation is set upon them both that there may be more colour to oppress the Minister by Taxes and other expences M. O. Exam. p. 325. But where is that Lordly Pomp he speaks of maintained by such clasping and griping into the Clutches of the priests Where are those pompous priests to be seen There was a time when the Popish Secular Clergy were a scandal to their Regular Clergy Bern. Ser. 133. in cant as in the time of Bernard especially when that devout Abbot set them forth in their pomp and pontificalibus wearing gold in their Bridles gold in their Saddles gold in their Spurs having their Tables abounding with variety of meats meats and drinks over flowing with surfetting and drunkenness which yet hath been exceeded by some English Clergy-men as by George Nevil Archbishop of York See Godw. Ca talog of Bish p. 612. in Ed. 4 time an 1466 Mart. Hist of Eagl p. 368. in H. S. his reign who at the Feast of his Installation the greatest that ever was for any of his rank was attended with Earls and Lords and by Cardinal Wolsey who was served with Dukes and Earls when he washed his hands The Bishops since the Reformation of Queen Elizabeth being by Office Lords of the Upper House of Parliament and having precedence before Lords Temporal were pompous and Lordly enough but since by this last Reformation the Hierarchy is come down and their Revenues gone I do not think but it will be very hard for Mr. O. to finde out a Minister a parish Minister that liveth in Lordly pomp or any thing like it and therefore by charging them first with ravenous Avarice and afterwards with Lordly pomp as if according to that of the Orator That which they got with greediness they lavished out in Luxury is not their double sin but his double slander Quod per scelus adeptus est per luxuriam effundit Cicer Orat. pro Q● not their guilt but his gaul and guile to make them odious which yet with judicious Readers may produce a contrary effect and the od●um he intends against them may recoyl upon himself for charging upon Oxthodox Ministers such notorious and extravagant untruths of which Calling there are now more good and fewer bad blessed be God than ever they were in any Age And therefore such excessive Revilings of them are not onely most unjust but most unseasonable Yet he hath not done with the slander of Covetousness for to render the Parochial Ministers more worthy of reproch and less capable of excuse for that Crime and indeed hopeless of all cure His next Charge That this iniquity came in with the first foundation of Parochial Divisions and so as he saith though most untruly and absurdly of Churches it will follow it cannot be reformed Fifthly Therefore to give you his own words Exam. p. 32. The end why England was first divided into parishes was at first to distinguish the flock asunder that so the shepherds or rather the sheep-shearers saith he might know where to look for their fleeces And to this he addeth a Marginal Note as corrupt a Gloss as the Text and the Note is this A work they can well enough away with still or any thing else that makes for their honour or profit the two things on which the Priesthood moveth Was that the first or chiefe end of dividing England into Parishes what proof have you of that Mr. O? your second-hand citation of Mr. Saltmarsh out of the book of learned Mr. Selden De Decimis I believe you have no better and how little credit is to be given to that Testimony as you bring it in you may read by review of mine answer to it If you had read Mr. S. you might have learned to make a more charitable construction of limiting publick Ministries and allowing maintenance for Ministers Selden Hist of Tithes c. 9. p. 259. who writeth thus of them when devotion grew firmer and most Lay-men of fair estates desired the Country-residence of some Chaplains who before lived in common with the Bishops that they might be alwayes ready for instruction of them their families and adjoyning Tenants c. That was the first and chief end of building Oratories and Churches and of endowing them with peculiar maintenance from the founders for the Incumbents which should there only reside and where we read of the division of the Province of Canterbury into Parishes by Honorius Arch-Bishop thereof the reason rendered is that he might appoint particular Ministers to particular Congregations those are the words of the * Godwins Catalogue of Bishops p 52. Eccles Historian which point to the work of the Minister among the people in the Church not to his reward from the people either in the fields of corn or flocks of sheep He hath many other reviling terms which brought together would make a great bundle of unsavoury weeds but I pass over conceiving a less proportion like a poysie may suffice to shew the bitterness of his spirit towards Ministers and Churches in general I will adde but one reproch more against Doctor Brian in particular which I may not omit to remember and refute Exam. p. 29. it is in the Epilogue of his latter Book Had I time as I have not saith he by being maintained like you by the sweat of other mens brows as I desire not c. In which words are implicitly comprised a Negative Thesis that a man especially a Minister should not be maintained by the sweat of other mens brows and a Positive Hypothesis that Doctor Brian is so maintained For the first if since God layd the Law upon Adam that in the sweat of his face he shall eat bread Gen. 3.19 it hath been unlawful for one man especially for Ministers to live by the labours of the people why did God maintain his worship by the Ministry of the Levites in that manner all along the old Testament and if it be unlawful under the new Testament for