of the questions in controuersy between vs my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon touching the pretended Authority and iurisdiction chalenged by his Lordship ouer vs which that it might the more plainly appeare we iudged it not only expedient but also necessary to declare our minds by this way course that we haue taken THE ATTESTATION I IOHN Mallery Gentleman do witnes and testify that I was present at London in the House of the most Excellent most Illustrious Lord Don Carlos Coloma extraordinary Embassadour for the King of Spaine the 3. day of March 1631. stylo nouo when as sundry Catholike Noblemen and others of quality there present did produce written in latin the Declaration Reasons and Letter heere aboue set downe All which being distinctly pronounced in presence of the forsayd Embassadour and all and euery thing therein expressed for as much as belongeth to the Cōtrouersy concerning the pretēded Authority of the Right Reuerēd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon ouer the Lay Catholikes of England the forsayd Gentlemen and Noblemen declaredfully and perfectly to conteyne the sense and meaning not only of themselues there present but in effect of all others whome they knew and namely of many Earles Vicounts Barons other men of Quality whome they named vnto the sayd Embassadour And they declared themselues to notify vnto him the mynd and sense of them all to be fully expressed in the sayd Declaration Reasōs Letter and that they had receaued full power Authority from them so to do And the Embassadour himselfe did then openly professe to haue vnderstood the same things from many of those Lay Catholikes whome they had named nor did he doubt at all of the truth of the whole matter which he tooke vpon him as they requested to make publicke Iohn Mallery THE aboue named Iohn Mallery Gentleman of the English Nation appearing personally before the Maior Magistrates and Griffiers of the Citty and Territory of Saint Winocks-Berge in the West-County of Flanders did vpon Oath affirme the things aforesayd and in testimony thereof in our presence subscribed signed the same In Witnes whereof we appointed the Seale vsed in Causes of our forsayd Citty and Territory to be set vnto this present Writing and to be subscribed by the Griffier our Notary This 15. day of March 1631. Locus ✚ Sigilli Joannes Hardunius THE ATTESTATION Of the most Excellent and most Illustrious Lord Don Carlos Coloma D. Carlos Coloma Knight of the Military Order of S. Iames Commendador of Montyelo Ossa of the Counsell of State and Warre to his Sacred Catholike Maiesty Captaine Generall of his Armyes in the Low Countreys c. We do witnesse and testify whilst of late we resided as Embassadour Extraordinary in the Court of the Renowned King of Great Brittaine the forsaid Declaration to haue byn exhibited vnto vs in our House at Londō the 3. day of March of this present yeare 1631. by many lay Catholikes of chiefe rāke in their Countrey and the same to haue byn approued and confirmed by diuers English Noblemen by word of mouth as well in their owne as in the Name of others in which respect we ratify the Attestation of M. Iohn Mallery an English Gentleman added vnto the end of the said Declaratiō being in like māner also authentically confirmed by the Magistrate of S. Winocks-Berge in witnesse of the truth of all and euery the premises as they were done we haue heereunto put our hand and seale Giuen at Bruxells the 2. day of April in the yeare of our Lord 1631. Don Carlos Coloma Locus ✚ Sigilli By Command of my most Excellent Lord. Fran. Schelen Printed at Bruxells by the widdow of Hubert Antony sworne Printer at the signe of the Golden Eagle neere to the Pallace M. DC XXXI THE ANSVVERE OF A CATHOLIKE LAY GENTLEMAN To the Iudgement of a Deuine vpon the Letter of the Lay Catholikes to my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon By L. B. Anno M. DC XXXI THE PREFACE to the Reader GENTLE READER Lighting of late vpon a litle writtē Treatise intituled The Iudgmēt of a Deuine vpō the 3. Gentlemens Letter to my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon I tooke and read it thinking to find somewhat more then Ordinary in it For hauing heard much talke of that matter being now in euery mans mouth seene also something written but not to much purpose now finding a Booke with the Title of a Deuine I presumed he would say something more then others had done But whē I came to read him I found him but like other men of his owne syde and particulerly so like the Lay Gentleman T. M. his Iudgement vpon the same Letter that I began to thinke it might be the very same man the style discourse and as I may say spirit wherewith both are written being the same And that because then that seeming to be but some Lay Gentlemans doing men made small account of it not vouchsafing it so much as one word of answere Now the same party would speake a little lowder to be heard writing ouer the same somewhat more dilatedly and inserting a little Latin in some places and taking vpon him the person of a Deuine for the substance of both is the same and accusing worthy Catholique Gentlemen of Passion Temerity Pretense of daunger Partiality to Regulars want of respect to Episcopal Authority and the like and all this vttered with so litle reason truth on the one side and so much gall and bitternes on the other as that I could not but be sorry and ashamed to see such a thing with the Title of a Deuine For if such manner of writing ill be seeme any Christian mā how much worse a Deuine who is to be a light of the world teaching men sobriety and temper by word and example hauing truth and reason with him in what he sayth and writeth and deliuering it in such sort as the manner may not betray the matter by shewing any distempered affection For euen that will much derogate from his writing though what he writeth should otherwise be true For euery man knoweth what a myst Passion is wont to cast before mens eyes and how hard it is for a passionate man to speake truth and nothing but truth And this is so much more daungerous where it concerneth the credit reputation of other men which how nice a point it is and how soone how grieuously a man may offend in it no Deuine can be ignorant and especially when the party discouereth but so much of himselfe as may gayne himselfe credit and thereby giue more force to the slaunder or imputation as the wryter doth stiling himselfe Deuine and on the other syde so concealing his particuler person that the partyes grieued know not of whome to complayne nor where to haue remedy And whereas it was to be expected of a Deuine that he should handle the matter substantially and solidly I found no such thing heere but euen the very mayne Question
THE ATTESTATION OF THE Most Excellent and Most Illustrious Lord DON CARLOS COLOMA Embassadour Extraordinary for Spayne OF THE DECLARATION made vnto him by the Lay Catholikes of England Concerning the Authority challenged ouer them by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon WITH THE ANSWERE OF A CAtholike Lay Gentleman to the Iudgment of a Deuine vpon the Letter of the Lay Catholikes to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon Superiorum permissu M. DC XXXI The Approbation of the famous Preacher and Deuine and most ancient amongst the Doctours of Diuinity of Sorbone now liuing SEing the ground of this whole Controuersy among the English Catholiks is therin placed that the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon seemes to challeng more vnto himselfe then is graunted by the faculties giuen him by the Sea Apostolike from whence it comes that out of the diuerse opinions iudgemeÌ„ts which are with heat framed by many there arise debats in this present tyme both daÌ„gerous and hurtfull To the appeasing quieting whereof no remedy seemes more to the purpose then to make fully knowne to all the true sense and feeling of the Catholikes that his Holynes doe more clearely lay open his mind concerning the faculties graunted to the sayd Right Reuerend Lord Bishop To both which this present Declaration of the English Catholikes is most necessary therfore I iudge it worthy to be published in print that it may be perused of all Dated at Tornay the 29. of April 1631. Iohn Boucher Sorbone Doctour in Diuinity Chanon and Archdeacon in Tornay and Censor of Bookes THE DECLARATION OF THE Lay Catholikes of England concerning the Authority challenged ouer them by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of CHALCEDON WEE Lay Catholickes of the realme of England haue vnderstood from sundry parts of the Christian world that a foule aspersion is cast vpon our honour reputation for that we are iudged to frame a lesse reuereÌ„d conceit of Episcopal Authothority and iurisdiction and not to render it that Obediecne which may be thought fit The only cause of this is taken from thence that we refuse to submit our selues to that power Authority which the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon hath long since pretended as due vnto his place and to the which as we are assured vpon strong motiues he still layeth clayme taking it as graunted him from the Sea Apostolike This pretended Authority of his hath byn maintayned by sundry Treatises as well written as printed which warrant his Ordinariship and assure him of as much power as is granted to other Ordinaries in what Catholike Diocesse soeuer and warne vs that the same Obedience is to be performed towards him on our part Moreouer we are told that hitherto we were not a Church as long as we wanted a particular Bishop but a flocke without a Pastor an Army without a Generall a Ship without a Pilot a spirituall kingdome without a spirituall king a family without the good maÌ„ of the house in a word no true or perfect Christians And although as soone as we had returned an answere to a Letter sent vs from my Lord Bishop presently diuers scandalous wrytings which his Lordship neuer sought to suppresse nor seemed to dislike of were spread abroad and we therin traduced with no small disparagement to our reputation and preiudice to our cause especially in the opinion of the vnlearned yet we chose rather to forgoe our proper and priuate interest then by standing out with vehemency for our owne right eyther affoard vnto others a subiect of scandall or giue way to the daunger of an ensuing Schisme Wherfore in silence we left the decyding of this matter to those who by their Highest power in the Church of God were as well his Lordships as our Superiours But seeing there haue not wanted many both at home and abroad who in a matter nothing belonging to them and who could not so much as pretend any Authority ouer vs haue notwithstanding vsurped the freedome of giuing iudgment in our cause with great domage to our fame and honour which we endeare aboue our liues we haue thought good to declare and auouch entierly and faithfully before God and man these ensuing points First we sincerely belieâ—e professe that Episcopall Authority in the Catholick Church was ordained by God and as it beseemeth good Catholickes we honour it with all reuerence and daily beg with our best wishes that the diuyne Goodnes will once be pleased to send a tyme in which that authority which is truly giuen and which we account full necessary in the Catholick Church may safely be established amongst vs and we without increase of persecution acknowledge it and as humbly submit our selues vnto it as they do who liue in couÌ„tries not liable to lawes enacted against Religion of which kind very many and those seuere and capitall be heere with vs in force Which fauour if we could but obteyne of his diuine Maiesty truly we should esteeme our selues thrice-happy Furthermore we declare openly that for as much as belongeth to the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon we honour and reuerence him in all duty take him to be a true Catholick Bishop sent hither by the sea Apostolick to administer the Sacrament of Confirmation as we thinke to gouerne that part of the Clergy which is coÌ„mitted to his charge but not to be our Ordinary either after an ordinary or extraordinary maÌ„ner because we in no case belieue that any such thing hath bin hitherto declared by the sea Apostolicke seeing that the tymes into which we are fallen do no wayes permit vs to obey such Authority without endangering the losse of our goods such a losse as cannot be recouered Neither do we only thinke that the Sea Apostolick hath not as yet bestowed any such office power or authority vpon the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon but moreouer we rest assured that it is not the intentioÌ„ of his Holines to grant it him herafter vntil those times returne which may promise that this power will rather serue to support Religion then to ouerthrow it and vntill it may be lawfull for vs to imbrace it freely without so many so great difficulties and dangers which as things now stand is altogeather impossible for sundry and weighty Reasons alledged by vs in the Letter aformeÌ„tioned in the beginning of this coÌ„trouersy to my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon which for that the Reader should not peradueÌ„ture light on or we be inforced often to repeate the same thing we thought good to set downe in this place a Copy thereof togeather with a certayne Declaration made and presented to my Lord de Chasteau-neuf his Excellency at that tyme the most Christian Kings Embassadour Extraordinary in EnglaÌ„d before whome many Catholicks some of chiefe dignity esteeme amongst vs acknowledged the same for their owne So as the iudicious and vnpartiall Reader will easily perceaue the state of our cause which was the thing
for the most part mistated For the Controuersy being of the Authority of Ordinary as Ordinary how it may stand with the safety of Catholiques in these tymes and vnder these lawes the writer flyeth from it to Episcopall Authority in generall Obedience to lawfull Pastours Gouernement of the Church and the like whereof no man maketh any doubt Or if he happen a litle to touch the point he doth but touch it and so slenderly that any man may see he hath not much confidence in his cause but seeketh rather to carry it by the Title then reason of a Deuine Wherefore finding my selfe euery way deceyued of my expectation both for the matter and manner and considering on the one side the harme which euen the bare Name or Title of a Deuine might do among many that looke not farre into things and the wrong that it might do to those three worthy Persons and zealous Catholiques in particuler agaynst whome this writyng is chiefly intended and to the cause of Catholiques in generall I thought best to make some answere to it though I be both least fit of a thousand that this course of writing be for the most part disallowed by wise men as being a thing that doth minister more matter of dissention and keepeth those things longer on foot which were better buryed For some answere must be sometymes made least such men thinke they haue wonne the field and indeed the silence of the one syde seemeth to haue made the other take more hart and to speake and to write more freely because perhaps they thinke men will still be as temperate of their pennes as they haue beene and are still of their tongues But they must think that this extreme heate of writing will force men somewhat to alter their course hoping that the necessity of a iust defence may plead their excuse that the end of this Warre wil be Peace which is my desire also intention in this my Answere which the God of Peace vouchsafe to graunt vs. And so I come to the matter which as the Deuine diuideth into fiue Sections the first shewing the Letter to proceed from passion the 2. from Temerity the 3. the motiues to be humane and worldly the 4. that the temporall daungers are meerely pretended the 5. that their cause of publique disauowing the Bishops Authority is pretended feigned so shall I endeauour in so many Sections to shew all the Contrary The Anwsere to the Iudgement of a Deuine vpon the three Gentlemens Letter to my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon THOVGH in answering of these papers I must be faine to let passe many greater matters then the Title yet it presenting it selfe in the first place I cannot omit to note two things in it The one is the word Iudgmēt which doth sound somewhat authoritatiuely insinuating as if the writer were a Iudge or Superiour for to such only it properly belongeth to giue iudgment whereby though perhaps he would gayne himselfe and his writing credit so to further my Lord Bishops cause which he handleth yet he is best to looke he do him not more harme For by making himselfe a man of such Authority he may make it to be thought that he is my Lord Bishop himselfe or some one of his officers but only that men presume more of the discretion of such Officers and much more of my Lord Bishop himself thē that they would write or euer suffer such a thing to be written with their priuity Wherefore though he take vpon him to giue iudgmēt yet I will take him not to be a man of iudgement I meane that hath any further Authority then his knowledge of Diuinity will affoard him and so I shall in this answere speake to him as to a Deuine not as a Iudge The other thing of the Title is that he calleth the Letter of the Lay Catholiques the Letter of the 3. Gentlemē who vndertooke the deliuery of it Wheras it is well knowne that most Catholiques of worth in and about London at the tyme of the deliuery of it were priuy to it and that these 3. were but chosen out of a great nūber as men most fit in al respects to vndertake the deliuery of it wherof I shall haue occasion to say more hereafter in this answer Only this I say here because hereupon as he calleth it the 3. Gentlemens Letter I meane to cal it more truly the lay Catholiques Letter SECT 1. That this Letter did not proceed from passion THE Deuines first Section is wholy to proue this Letter to proceed from passion Wherin a man might aske him what passion But because I will not stumble him to much at first nor intend so much to vrge him as answere I let that passe His first reason is because these Gētlemen take no notice as he saith of any thing but that which disliketh them to wit my Lord Bishops Ordinaryship and exacting approbation of Regulars there being diuers other things that in the Deuines iudgment imported them more as the validity of their Cōfessions which concerned their soules good the Bishops care of not increasing their temporall troubles which cōcerned their fortunes and the preseruing the Bishops honour Authority which concerned the commō good of our English Church This is the substance of the first paragraph wherin he taxeth these Gentlemen as if they had only a mynd to quarrell with my Lord Bishop for so he saith in the marginall note But how false this is may easily appeare if a man cōsider how many things there were in that Letter very subiect to exception which a man that had bene disposed to picke quarrels might haue made matter of and among others that bitter imputation of practising and libelling wherwith his Lordship chargeth Catholiques in generall in his common Letter 16. October 1627. Which though no man could but resent yet euery man forbare to speak of because it was impertinent to that end which they set before them in writing this Letter which end of theirs if it had beene as this Deuine imagineth this had beene the first thing in the whole Letter to take hold of and this is the very reason why they medled not with those other matters wherwith this Deuine would faine haue had them trouble themselues Besides that there be other reasons which a man might easily bring as for that of the validity of Confessions that they saw not any colourable reason of doubt yet they prayed his Lordshippe in whose power it was with a word speaking or rather not speaking a word not to bring them into further trouble then they had bene in his Predecessours tyme and before And for their tēporall state they saw wel inough all my Lords aduise would nothing auaile them so long as he had the authority he challenged Besides that in their tēporall matters they can better aduise thēselues then any man els can that being their owne element And lastly for the not belieuing euill speaches against the
Bishop they saw it was a needles thing to mention it being a knowne point of Christian duty not to heare any man ill spoken of much lesse a Bishop if they should chaÌ„ce to meete with any such discourse which they neuer do they and their friends abhorring such way of proceeding The second proofe of passion is because the Bishop offering further satisfaction concerning his Authority to any man that would aske it these Gentlemen did not aske it It is true indeed hauing seene my Lord Bishops publique clayme of that Authority it was no tyme for theÌ„ to go and aske a priuate glosse or Declaration which would little auaile them when such a Letter should be brought against them But let this Deuine aske my L. Bishop Whether he were neuer desired to make it knowne what Authority he had I am sure his Lordship wil not deny but he was many tymes but he neuer would til he declared it in this publique manner If my Lord then meant to giue them sufficient satisfactioÌ„ in priuate why did he not do it in priuate while meÌ„ did desire it and while there was tyme Besides suppose my Lord would haue written a Letter he might haue forborne to speake so plainly of his Ordinaryship only inuiting those that desired to know his Authority to come priuatly vnto him And for that which this Deuine saith that my Lord could not informe them sufficiently of his Authority in so short a Letter I se not what reason there is for it I dare say his Letter is 5. tymes at least as long as his Patents or Breue and Instructions the sight whereof would haue serued the turne without all this writing doing Which being so easy a matter thâ—t yet his Lordship would not do it they might well despaire of further satisfaction The third proofe of passion is that as this Deuine saith this Letter stretcheth my Lord Bishops words vpon the Tenter-hookes or rather addeth vnto them in saying that the particuler passages cyted and the whole scope of the second part of the Letter argue his Lordship to assume his Authority ouer the lay Catholiques to be as great in England and Scotland as any Ordinary exercised here in England in Catholique tymes Whereas my Lord Bishop neuer spake of Authority ouer lay Catholiques in ScotlaÌ„d but only to proue himselfe Ordinary brought the Inscription of Letters from some Cardinals thus Ordinario Angliae Scotiae In which the Deuine complaineth of two Additions the one that the Letter sayth my Lord challengeth Authority ouer the laity of Scotland the other that it sayth my Lord challengeth as much Authority here in England as Ordinaries haue had in Catholyke tymes But first the Letter neither stretcheth nor addeth to my Lords words but only maketh a manifest and immediate inference vpon or out of theÌ„ For it saith his Lordship words argue him to assume c. Which plainely shewes that they do not charge his Lordship with saying so in expresse termes but saying that out of which as antecedent the coÌ„clusion is manifestly gathered Now there is great difference betweene an inference and an Addition as euery body knoweth Secondly if the Deuine would haue answered and not cauelled he should haue shewed the ConclusioÌ„ not to be wel truly deduced out of his Lordships antecedent then he had sayd somewhat to the purpose But that he cannot do For if my L. Bishop out of the Inscription Ordinario Angliae do proue himself Ordinary out of this inferre himselfe to haue authority ouer Lay Catholiks of EnglaÌ„d why may he not do the lyke of the words Ordinario Scotiae which Title his Lordship vseth continually and ioyntly with the word Angliae thus Ordinarius Angliae Scotiae Thirdly his Lordships pateÌ„ts make no difference betweene the faithfull of England and Scotland Wherfore if he challenge authority ouer the one he may do it ouer the other For the other Addition as this Deuine sayth or Inference as in truth it is of assuming the same Authority which Ordinaries haue exercised heere in Catholique tymes what can the Deuine say to it Is it not truly and euidently inferred My Lord Bishop sayth the Pope maketh him as absolute Ordinary in England as other Ordinaries in their Diocesses and this Deuine acknowledgeth him to haue as much as any Ordinary hath or can haue in his Diocesse But our Ordinaryes heere in Catholicke tymes were no more but as other Ordinaries in their Diocesses nor had more then any Ordinary hath or may haue in his Diocesse Ergo my Lord Bishop supposing these his Lordships premises hath the same Authority that Catholique Ordinaries haue had heere in England in Catholique tymes Or by the challenging that Authority of other Ordinaries or what they haue or may haue he challengeth the same that Ordinaries haue had in Catholike tymes What fault is there in this Argument Why then doth this Deuineâ—ryfle â—ryfle thus As if these two were not all one The Authority which an Ordinary hath or may haue in his Diocesse and which an Ordinary had in tymes past heere in England Had our Bishops more heere then an Ordinary may haue elswhere Did he perhaps thinke that no man would euer vouchsafe to answere or perhaps read this paper Where is now the passion in stretching and adding of words But because it may moreouer appeare that this inference of the Authority which Ordinaries had heretofore did not proceed from passion I will ad a reason why mention was made of our Ordinaries of former tymes in England which is this That they who wrote the Letter came better to be acquaynted with what belongs to the Authority of Ordinary and how farre it extendeth it selfe by that which Ordinaryes were wont to do heere in England and which for the most part they do still in the same Courts heere established then what Ordinaries do abroad which we heere are not so well acquainted withall And from hence commeth the answere to another obiected Addition in that this Letter saith that such coÌ„trouersies as were spoken of immediatly before in the Letter haue mixture with temporall Authority and concerne temporall fortunes and receiue also temper from our temporall lawes c. This the Deuine according to his former maÌ„ner of speach calleth an Addition to his Lordships words who he sayth sayd nothing of temporall fortunes nor Authority of temporal Princes As for the word Addition it suteth yet farre lesse in this place then before True it is the Bishop did not speake of temporall fortunes and lawes but he spake of that which hath necessary connexion with them which is his Ordinaryship Which connexion though the Bishop perhaps did not so seriously reflect vpon as a thing that might hinder the exteÌ„t of his power yet Lay-men whome it concerned could not but looke about them to see themselues hooked in vpon a suddayne by Tytle of an Ordinary which bringeth after it all this that is mentioned in the Lay mens Letter
and which with all respect they represent to the consideration of my Lo. Bishop of whose loue towards them they were so well perswaded that they did not doubt but vpon the very first representation of the inconueniencyes perplexityes and daungers which that Authority did bring with it his Lordship would preseÌ„tly desist from further claime of it Howsoeuer these daungers to them were a very sufficient enforcement to disclaime from it as they did Now where is this Inference forced Doth not my Lord Bishop say absolutly he is Ordinary or hath as much power as any Authority may haue in his Diocesse May not others then say what the power of such an Ordinary is and what inconuenience may come to themselues by it in some particular circumstances What force or strayning is heere Oh my Lord Bishop will the Deuine say spake only of his Authority to vrge approbation of Regulars True that is the occasion indeed But doth not his Lordship by that occasion chalenge the absolute and full power which an Ordinary hath or may haue Doth not all that he bringeth proue his Ordinaryship absolute without limitation of cause or persons if his proofes were good Might not Lay-men plainly say my Lord meant more of them whome he tooke to be his proper subiects â—hen of them who were exempt And if his Lordship had meant only to clayme Authority ouer Regulars in the matter of approbation he might haue answered plainely and precisely restrainyng all to them But I shall haue occasion to speake more of this by and by The 4. argument of passion is that they deny my Lord Bishop all Authority not onely temporall but spirituall and vnder pretence of their temporall Fortunes they would be Oues sine Pastore If I would be captious with this Deuine I could aske him where this Letter denyeth my Lord Bishop to be Ordinary or where it speaketh of his Lordships teÌ„porall Authority But I will not presse him further in that But for his spirituall Authority or rather the power in fore interno for indeed all the power of a Bishop as he is a Bishop is spirituall speaking properly where do they deny it Or if they do not speake of it hauing no occasion and it being from the purpose doth it follow that they deny it He may haue that though he be no Ordinary nor haue power in foro externo How then doth the deniall of the former infer the deniall of the latter Is not heere stretching of wordes or forcing inferences And much more in that as this Deuine saith we would be Oues sine Pastore Haue we beene Oues sine Pastore now aboue 60. yeares wherin we haue had no Bishop Nay haue we not so much more had a Pastor as we haue more immediatly been gouerned by the Pastor of Pastours receyuing immediate influence from the sea Apostolique But more of this anone The 5. Argument of passion is because they omit the principall point which the Bishop handleth which was his full Authority to exact approbation of Regulars and take hold of the secondary which was his Ordinaryship And neere the Deuine coÌ„plaineth they tooke no notice whether he had satisfied them or no. Well what passion was it for Catholiques to leaue that that concerned them not so immediatly though it were the principall point and touch that which concerned them more though it were but secondarily intended To what end should they take notice of satisfaction in a thing in which they needed none as making no doubt of it For suppose there had been any litle shaddow of probability of my Lord Bishops pretence yet so many good and learned men as there were heere of Regulars nay and of all moderate and learned of the secular Clergy affirming the contrary euen my Lord Bishop not ventring to say to the contrary at least to some persons but that Confessions made to Regulars were good what doubt could any prudent man make of the validity of his Confessions The Authority of any one or two learned men being sufficient for a wise man to lay aside all scruple of that kind what needed therfore all that ado And the rather because it was a matter of learning they would not trouble themselues further then to desire his Lordship not to put them to further trouble then his predecessor or himselfe had hitherto put them vnto in which they shew though not in expresse termes how they were satisfied with his Lordships Letter in that point especially laying his Authority of Ordinary for grouÌ„d of that claime what passion then is heere But now if a man would stand vpon it it might perhaps be proued that my Lord did intend no lesse principally to declare his Ordinaryship and by this occasion to make open challenge of his Authority in that kind For what else doth the greatest part of his Letter pretend Why doth he write so largely to the layty of a matter which doth not so properly belong vnto them but only to put needlesse scruples into their heads And with all to make some answere to the Laity who not long before had been very instant to know his Authority more precisely though his Lordship could not be met withall to haue their demaunds deliuered to himselfe But because these are coniectures I will not stand vpon them only this I may say if his Lordships intent had not been to clayme that Authority he might presently haue disclaymed it and there had beene an end The sixt Argument of notorious passion our Deuine sayth is this that they incense the State against the Bishop by saying that the execution of the Authority of this new Tribunall will prouoke the present Gouernmeut vnto an exact search after it and suppression thereof and so bringeth a clause of Bulla Coenae to proue them excommunicated therfore asketh why else this Letter was shewed to the King This is a strange point of Diuinity that a man shall incurre excommunication for representing vnto the Bishop the daunger which by clayming such Authority he bringeth vpon himselfe and other men This is a thing allowable by the lawes of God and man and how then doth it deserue excommunication Is this to prouoke the state to persecute No surely but to moue the Bishop not to prouoke the State against himselfe and others as for publishing the Letter and causing it to be shewed to the King if it were so this Deuines intelligence is better then mine Howsoeuer it was no more then needed for men to declare themselues somewhat in a more publique manner that Authority being so publiquely claymed which would bring so many daungers vpon them And some great Officers haue been knowne to say since that it was tyme for Catholiques to do as they did for that otherwise they might haue smarted for it Wherein then doth passion notoriously appeare in this matter vnlesse it be that this Deuine will haue all to proceed from passion which lyketh him not And so hauing cleered this Letter of
which as things stand will rather hinder then help Now for our auncient lawes which our Deuine sayth are not against a Catholique Episcopal tribunal not according to the meaning of the Law-maker howsoeuer it may be against the sound of the words I say first that as times stand it is enough to be against the letter of the Law our Protestant Iudges and men in Authority who thinke themselues fittest to be interpreters of the Law will haue great aduaÌ„tage against vs if they shal be able by the very words of the auncieÌ„t lawes to bring vs with in compasse of Treason or Premunire And if now by word writing they publish to the world that we dy not for Religion but for Treason although we suffer but by the lawes made in this time of Protestancy how much more colourably would they thinke to do it wheÌ„ we shall suffer by the auncient Lawes made and practised in Catholique tymes and not disallowed or contradicted by the Sea Apostolique And it may be this very thing if it had been so knowne to his Holines as the Catholiks Letter saith well for it is no disparagement for any man to say that he doth not know all particular Lawes and Ordinances of all Countryes it is most probable his Holines would neuer haue put the Catholiques into any the least occasion of such offence especially being a thing wholy needlesse at this time Secondly a man may perhaps also say it is against the meaning of the law in some sort For though it were neuer the meaning of our Catholique Auncestors to hinder the lawfull exercise of Ordinary Ecclesiasticall power yet their end was as this Deuine confesseth to restrayne the exercise of extraordinary power or Legatiue by reason of the disturbance which it did many times cause in the vsuall courts of Iustice of this kingdome Why then may not a maÌ„ say they meane of such power as my Lord Bishop would haue heere considering the preseÌ„t state of things For heere be now vsual Ecclesiastical courts of Ordinaries or Bishops but they are ProtestaÌ„t Bishops say you I graunt it but yet in their Courts they retaine the same forme of iustice in great part the same kinds of causes they had aunciently and though it be true that they haue not true Ecclesiastical iurisdiction as being Branches cut of from the roote which is the Sea Apostolique yet they exercise it de facto by the Kings authority so as all both Protestants and Catholiques must be subiect vnto them so much as concerneth the outward gouerment or forum externum Now my Lord Bishops Authority in this case suppose it Ordinary for the present for disputatioÌ„s sake is of no lesse hinderance or disturbance to the Ordinary Courts and course of Iustice then was Legatiue in ancient times nay more for the Legatiue court was a Superiour court and therfore did not medle in Ordinary and dayly matters but in some particuler cases and euents Whereas my Lord Bishops Court if he were Ordinary would answere ex aequo as I may say and directly to the Ordinary spirituall Courts heer and might challenge the hearing and determining of all causes as due to it selfe excluding the other as vsurper In which respect I thinke that as this Deuine sayth the law-makers neuer intended to hinder the restitution of Catholique Episcopall iurisdiction so I am of opinion with him thus farre though they would not hinder it when tyme should be for it so yet that in such tyme and circumstances as now we are in and so long as it were not in their power to hinder but that Protestants should bâ—are the sway as they do they would neuer haue lyked the restitution of it in such manner as his Lordship desireth To which though I am the rather induced by considering how the Catholique Bishops who in Queene Maryes time exercised their Authority and kept their courts vpon the suppression of Religion and their Authority and the substitution of others in their place forbare the exercise thereof as hurtful rather then any way vsefull nay euen impossible Thirdly not to stand guessing what would haue been the mind of the Law-makers in this particular case suppose my Lord of Chalcedon were Ordinary heer to come to the true playne meaning of the Law which this our Deuine acknowledgeth to wit that by it is forbidden the exercise of a legatiue tribunal I say this law precisely and directly toucheth his Lordships Court which he would erect For though be not a legate à latere yet he is a Delegate of the Sea Apostolique and his power is of the same kinde with Legatiue though inferiour vnto it And this is manifest by the words of his owne Letter saying he is Ordinarius not Ordinario modo but extraordinario modo as Legats Nuncio's and the like though he be not yet so truly Ordinary as any of them whose power is expressed in the Canon Law his Lordships power being wholy out of the CommoÌ„ Course Therfore the law is much more against it then against the power of a Legate Secondly the very manner of conferring the Authority by speciall Commission doth manifestly shew him to be a Delegate for that is proper to Delegation Thirdly he hath his Iurisdiction ad beneplacitum which is essentiall to Delegation But what need I stand further prouing so manifest a thing wheÌ„ as both his commission hath the expresse word Delegamus and his Holines his Nuncio of Paris in a Letter vnder his owne hand speaking of my Lord Bishop of Chalcedons Breue sayth Delegationis suae Breue sufficienter ostendit c. by word of mouth he did not only tell diuers that will iustify it that my Lord was not Ordinary but proued also by the Cannons that he could not be Ordinary His Lordships Power then being rather Legatiue then Ordinary and euen not that legatiue which is expressed in iure and whose power in that respect is called Ordinary because it is belonging to the office of a legate by law it is plaine that the ancient Law doth properly touch his Lordships power and Tribunall For suppose when EnglaÌ„d was Catholique a man had come in hither all the Bishopricks being ful with such a speciall title and commission and chalenging such Authority heere as his Lordship now doth what would other Bishops say In what Ordinary Tribunall should he sit Must he not erect himselfe a new one Nay suppose his Lordship should haue byn Bishop of Canterbury and one come in as he doth Bishop of Chalcedon by speciall Commission would not his Lordship think that man to offend against this ancient law in such a case And whosoeuer should acknowledg or submit himselfe to such Authority liable to the penalty there appointed Certainly he would And why not then in this case You will say now there be no Catholique Ordinaries as theÌ„ there would be What then say I againe Doth that alter my Lord of Chalcedons Authority Doth not that remaine the same
in it selfe still without chāge whatsoeuer the others be Is not their change meerely accidentall to his Authority For he is still Bishop of Chalcedon hath the same commission If then that would be against that law now it is What temerity is it then in Catholiks to aduertise my Lord of Chalcedon what danger he bringeth vpon himselfe others by erecting this new Tribunal which they may truly call Innouation as being a thing without President in our nation and contrary to our ancient Laws therfore no restitution of Ordinary Episcopall iurisdiction as the Deuine would haue it though suppose it were truly and properly restitutiō of Ordinary Episcopall iurisdiction and consequently not against the ancient Lawes yet would it be against the moderne which threaten so many so great dangers that a man may very wel without note of temerity declare them vse what means they can to auoyd them I could heer note how some friends of this Deuine I meane some of the Appellants in Clement the VIII his time vrged these ancient lawes against the Authority of the Archpriest then appointed by that Pope though that were no externall iurisdictiō nor ouer the Laity how much more then may they be vrged against my Lord Bishop of Chalcedons which he pretēds But I say no more of it 3. The 3. poynt of Temerity wherwith this Deuine chargeth Catholikes is in that they censure the sea Apostolique as he sayth and 2. most wise Popes by saying that if these their dangers togeather with their long sufferinges present state of miseries had ben considered abroade they presume no such Authority woulde haue beene imposed vpon them as if sayth he the sea Apostolique had not considered the daungers which might come to Lay Catholiques by Episcopall Authority And then he asketh why they did not giue the Sea Apostolique to vnderstand these daungers all that tyme that the Clergy stood suing for a Bishop the Iesuits opposing it Or all the tyme that the Bishop hath been heer wherein as the Deuine sayth he hath euer professed himselfe Ordinary Whervpon he cōcludeth that it is not the reare of daunger to themselues but their passionatenesse to Regulars who stood in daunger of Approbation that moueth thē to this This is the Deuines discourse and a very good and likely one it is forsooth because the Catholiques say that if their daungers had beene considered to vse the Deuines words abroad they presume they should not haue had such Authority imposed vpon them Therfore they cēsure the sea Apostolike This man is so much in giuing iudgment and censuring that all that any man else sayth seemeth to him to be censuring What is there heere any way condemning the Sea Apostolique Nay rather do not Catholiques in this shew the great confidence they haue of the loue and tendernes that the Sea Apostolicke beareth towards them Which induceth them to thinke that if their case had been fully made knowne it would no way do a thing so preiudiciall vnto them where it is to be noted that besides the Deuines ordinary liberty of terming thinges as he listeth to cōceiue thē wresting words to a worse sense heer he corrupteth the text the better to ground his accusation of Temerity For in those copies that I haue seen of this Letter there was not the word Considered but the word Vnderstood which is no way subiect to exception But notwithstanding suppose the Deuines copy had the word Considered which yet a man may doubt of none else hauing so it may very well carry the same sense Which supposed what Temerity or what Censure is it to say if the Pope did vnderstand our case c. May not the Pope be ignorāt of many particular laws or Statutes of a Kingdome so remote in place and so different in manners and language and especially in this tyme of Protestancy as this Kingdome is He being a man and hauing none but humane meanes to know thinges he cannot know our affaire by himselfe but by information of others and it seemeth they haue beene such men as were more carefull to prosecute their owne ends then seeke our good and therefore would make no more knowne of our case then might stand with their pretences now that we come to speake for our selues to make knowne our owne case for saying that if it had beene so vnderstood abroad we are calumniated as if we did temerariously cēsure the Sea Apostolique What dealing is this But because this Deuine doth thus grieuously accuse Catholiques for Temerity in censuring the Sea Apostolique I would willingly aske him a question in his eare whether he do know a man in the world that hath been often heard to say before there was a Bishop that the Pope was bound vnder paine of mortall sinne to let the English Clergy haue a Bishop and consequently it euidently followeth that in the same Deuines iudgment in not granting one he did sinne mortally If he do not know such a man I can tel him who he is and vouch for my selfe one of the Clergy it selfe and a man of chiefe Authority vnder my Lord Bishop and of great credit with him for his forwardnes and zeale in the cause Now whether this be not censuring let any man iudge For what greater censure can there be then to condemne the chiefe Pastour of Gods Church of a mortal sinne And of a mortall sinne nor so much in matter of fact which might depend of information and so be somewhat excusable but in matter of Iudgment or error in a Doctrinal poynt which cannot be excused as whether the law of God require the hauing a Bishop or not heere in England at this tyme Which the Pope denieth this De 〈…〉 affirmeth and not only affirmeth but condemneth the Pope of a mortall 〈…〉 e for not being of his mind These 〈…〉 tlemen vsed a modest worde 〈…〉 they vsed also a conditionall 〈…〉 anner of speaking which were sufficient to mollify the word suppose it had beene a little harsh They impute no crime they shew assurance of loue and tendernesse and of great wisdome and maturity in counsel and yet this is censuring And wheras he accuseth Catholiques also for Censuring two most wise Popes of doing what they vnderstood not I might answere him likewise that he condemneth all the Popes that went before these two for the space of three-score yeares to wit Ten most graue and wise Popes who for many and very waighty reasons would neuer be drawen to haue a Bishop heere as tymes stood And the two last yelded to the hauing of a Bishop not out of any Scruple of conscience or feare of transgressing the Deuine precept but out of other motiues Nay it is most like that they would haue held the same course that so many of their Predecessours did holde but that they were persuaded by some that the tymes were altered so that it might better be now then heertofore which can be no fault of the
recede c. But the Deuine had an eye in this to his conueniēcy reseruing this poynt for the last therin to shew his Diuinity which he hath hitherto made litle shew of and so now he commeth to that which followeth 6. Their 6. point of Temerity sayth the Deuine is in their words neyther can we be persuaded that there is a necessity of conforming our selues therunto Episcopall power obserue these two words of the Deuines owne putting in by the parenthesis and by way of glosse as to a matter of fayth or yet that we can be obliged to loose our state and ruine our posterityes where the necessity of profession of Fayth doth not oblige vs. Vpon which words the Deuine descanteth asking what is this but to get vp into the Bishops chayre and teach him how far they are obliged where he sayth that as long as they taught what was common law they were to be heard but that where they come to teach the duty of a Christian they passe the duty of a Christian And then he teacheth that it is a matter of Fayth that there ought to be Episcopall power in Gods Church and that the Pastors are to be obeyed and that although particulars be not matter of fayth yet men are bound out of the vertue of Religion to hould them so where there is no cause of doubt For sayth he it sufficeth that they are obliged to obey theyr lawfull Pastour and that they haue no reasonable cause to doubt but that the Bishop of Clalcedon is such to them and so concludeth that they erre exceedingly if they thinke that they are not bound to conforme themselues to any thing but matters of fayth for that they are bound to conforme their willes to matters of religion obedience or other vertues cōmaunded by God his Church as they do their vnderstanding to matter of faith Thus the Deuine discourseth more it seemeth to shew his Diuinity then to speake to the purpose for what needed al this whereof there is no question as that it is the institution of Christ that there should be Episcopall Authority in the Church that lawfull Pastors are to be obayed that men are no lesse boūd to the practise of other vertues then the profession of fayth Who denieth all this Or what was there in the Letter that being rightly taken might enforce any such discourse The Catholickes meaning therfore is playne that the acknowleging or obaying such Authority as my Lord Bishop now pretēdeth heere in Englād as things stād is not a matter of necessity to the profession of the Catholike fayth or exercise of any other vertue necessary for a good Christian But that they may be good Catholickes without it as they haue approued themselues before God the world these 60. yeares which if it had been necessary the Sea Apostolike would neuer haue suffered them to want a Bishop so long This was the thing the Deuine should haue touched without going about the bush now what Temerity is it for any lay man in the world to say this Or wherin doth he take vpon him more thē he should How doth he teach the Bishop or by saying this how doth he passe the duty of a good Christiā What crime is it for a man now in time of heresy persecution where the profession and exercise of the Catholique fayth is dangerous to his life and fortune when he shall be vrged by my Lord Bishop to further exercise or profession therof then is necessary to make answere that he thinketh he cannot be bound vnto it Will this Deuine in good company and before learned men say he can No no hee will be better aduised whatsoeuer he writeth Nay this thing is so playne and so necessarily included in the Common practise of the Catholique fayth all this tyme of persecution as I wonder this Deuine should thinke it such a matter for a lay mā to speake so much Diuinity He need not for his will be neuer the lesse though all the world know it And on the other side Catholiques haue beene so beaten to it that there is no man can but know it For what hath made them stand out against the oath of Supremacy going to Church the oath of allegiāce c. but the necessary connexiō that these things of their owne nature haue with the profession of their faith which were it not all Catholiques in England know they could not by any humane constitution be bound not to cōforme themselues to our lawes in this behalfe the dangers being such as they are Now they see that the hauing of a Bishop at this time with such Authority as is pretended is not of such necessity on the one side as these things and on the other side of no lesse danger and therfore they thinke they cannot be bound to it Is this such a deep point of Diuinity as a Lay man may not presume to know it Or if he know not speake Or if he speake of it he must be sayd to get vp into the Bishops Chayre Who would thinke a Deuine would trifle thus But let vs see more he enlargeth himselfe in this as being in his iudgement a substantiall poynt of temerity making another Paragraph of it But before I haue done with this I cannot omit to note the Deuines Parenthesis in the beginning of this 6. Paragraph where to the words of the Letter which say Neither can we be perswaded that there is a necessity of conforming our selues heerunto which they meane playnely of an Episcopall Tribunall as things stand This Deuine with his parenthesis of Episcopall power maketh as though Catholiques deny conformity to Episcopall power in generall which is a strange slight I may say plaine corruption But to goe on with him he goeth forward thus Like to this is that other great errour of theirs where they say they cannot be obliged to loose their estates ruine their posterityes where the necessity of profession of fayth doth not oblige them For saith he they are aswel obliged to loose their estates nay liues also where the exercising of any necessary Vertue doth oblige them as where the profession of fayth doth For example he bringeth Ioseph the Patriarch who was obliged to loose his estate and liberty as well when the necessity of Chastity did bind him as necessity of professing his fayth So he sayth Christians were no lesse bound to obay the decrees of the Apostles thē belieue their doctrine And he brings the Authority of S. Thomas to proue that he suffereth as a Christian whosoeuer suffereth for doing any good or auoyding any euill saying withall of himself that to loose their liues for acknowledging their lawfull Pastor is to loose it for profession of their fayth So the Church holdeth them for Martyrs who would rather dy then subscribe to the condemnation of S. Athanasius c. To this I answere that the Deuine is very free to call this an errour which by answering what he sayth
is all one But to go a little further with him I say it is not Treason for a man to heare masse to receiue the Blessed Sacrament to be baptized married annoyled or the like or to do any act in acknowledgemēt of his Priesthood except only absolutiō reconciliation wheras it is farre otherwise of a Bishop For not only to be absolued or recōciled by him but euen to promise any obedience vnto him is high treason in the Doer Coūsellour or A bettor much more to do any act in conformity of his Episcopal power in foro externo as to appeare before him vpon his citation to obey his censures or the like this by a law of 23. Eliz. to wit 4. yeares before that other of receiuing relieuing c. of Iesuits Priests where it is enacted that if any person shall promise any obedience to any pretended Authority of the sea of Rome or of any other Prince State or Potētate that then such person shal be takē tried and iudged suffer and forfaite as in case of high Treason in which words is plainely comprehended Episcopal power as such for it is deriued from the sea of Rome whether it be delegate or ordinary Or if it be Ordinary as that of Bishops in their diocesse and as the Deuine takes my Lord of Chalcedons to be then it is like it may be vnderstood in that word Prince for such a Bishop is a spirituall Prince And that it may yet further appeare that his Episcopall power as such is so forbidden by this law I will put this Deuine a case thus Suppose there should com one in hither sent by the Pope without the order of Bishop Priest or any other order but only with Episcopall power or iurisdiction as he might be to determine such causes heere among Catholiques as Bishops do els where in their spirituall Courts would this case be comprehēded in our Lawes thinks he or not or would it not be Treason for men to promise him obediēce come to his Court obey his cēsures c certainly it would euen by this law of 23. Eliz. How then can this Deuine so confidently auerre that Episcopall power is no more against our modern Lawes then Priestly But heere now I must intreate this Deuine to conceyue me right for my intentiō is not to inforce Lawes against my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon but only to answere his arguments which force me to this to shew that there may be some more daunger in Episcopall then Priestly power for auoyding wherof Catholiques are not to be blamed if they be lesse willing to admit of the one then of the other now in these tymes wherein it is but good discretion for men to serue God and exercise their religion with as little hazard of their Liues and Fortunes as they may To the second demaund whether it beseeme them to reiect Episcopall Authority and the certayne spirituall commodityes therof vpon vncertaine or rather pretended daungers I answere as to the first that it supposeth falsly that they reiect spirituall Authority For they reuerence it though nothing seemes reuerence to this man but yielding to his will Secondly they do not refuse any spirituall commodity that commeth therby as Confirmation hallowing of Oyles or whatsoeuer else doth not concerne such manner of Ordinary Authority as they cannot safely admit for the reasons alleadged in their Letter which this man sayth are vncertaine or pretēded which conceit of pretented so much pleaseth the Deuine that he maketh a distinct section of it therfore if it deserue any answere I will make it there To the 3. demaund how far short they are of the zeale of the Affrican Catholiques who would rather venture a persecution then want a Bishop I answere it is well knowne Catholiques heere want no zeale to Bishoply Authority who haue suffered so long sharpe persecution for the Authority of the sea Apostolique which they haue defended with losse of goods and life for admitting of Priests sent by the Authority therof which that holy sea considering with great wisdome and charity hath so tempered things all the tyme of persecution that as on the one side it hath sent Priests with sufficient Authority for our instruction administration of Sacraments other necessary matters so on the other side it hath for borne to presse vs further for the admittance of such Authority at is more dangerous then needfull And who can blame vs if we desire the continuance of the same course still till God send better times And if our zeale be the same to the sea Apostolique for whose Authority we suffer and vpon whome we desire therfore to depend immediatly as vpō our proper Pastour as those Catholiques had to their particular Bishop of what can any man iustly taxe vs Are we worse Catholiques Nay are we not rather so much better Catholiques as we depend more neerly of the Head of the Catholique Church Besides our case is different from the Africans in many respects they had no other meanes of maintaining the succession of Priests for administration of the Sacraments and preseruation of the Catholique fayth but by a Bishop of their owne we haue They desired a Bishop of their owne we should also be glad of such a one as for example a Catholique Bishop of Cāterbury Londō c. if it might be but not a Bishop of another Diocesse to come in hither as Ordinary for that is against our auncient Catholique Lawes Their Bishops seas were not possessed by others ours are and the like This Deuine therefore doth vniustly taxe vs of want of zeale to our immediate Pastor Besides the example of the Africans is often answered proued to make quite against the Deuines end To the 4. demaund which is whether it beseeme them to impugne a Bishop who is their Pastor in behalfe of Regulars who are not their Pastors I answere that still this Deuine supposeth a false ground of impugning a Bishop Now for a Pastor we know not what he meaneth by it If he meane one with power to preach teach and administer Sacraments without other ordinary forrayne power we graunt he is a Pastour But then why should not other Priests be also Pastours hauing the same power and Regulars as well as seculars for it is not the name of a Bishop only For any Priest that cometh heere into England is more our Pastor then the Bishop of Paris Lyons Burdeaux or any such Bishop who hath nothing to do heer but by speciall cōmission which if it be no more then is giuen to other Priests thē is he no more Pastour then they Will this Deuine say my Lord of Chalcedon is a Pastour otherwise Say it perhaps he may but proue it I thinke he cannot Sure I am his Breue or Cōmission importeth no such thing but all the contrary as that he is Delegate his power reuokable that it is only for the spirituall good of soules It is signified by the word Facultyes
which signifieth power in him but no obligation on the other part to obey we vnderstād the ordinary forme of creating a Bishop for ordinary Pastour to be this Prouidemus Ecclesiae tali de tali persona praeficimns cum in Patrem ac Pastorē ac Episcopum eiusdem Ecclesiae cōmittentes ei administrationē in temporalibus spiritualibus in nomine patris filij spiritus sācti Amen The omission of this ordinary forme and auoyding of all words which might signify any power or Authority maketh vs verily belieue his Holines neuer meant to make him Ordinary or Pastour other then in that general sense that al that are sent with power of instructing men administring of Sacramēts may be called Pastours And this power euery body willingly affoardeth him As for that which our Deuine sayth that the Laity impugne the Bishop in behalfe of Regulars I say that the one is euen as true as the other For they nether impugne him but he them nor do what they do in behalfe of the Regulars but of themselues their owne right for it is their owne liues fortunes which they defēd and as for the Regulars they defend their owne priuiledges of another kynd no doubt will be able of themselues to do it without help of the Laity being so learned as to know how farre they ought to yield or not to yield to his Lordship and so vertuous as not to deny him any thing that is due To the 5. demaund whether Regulars deserue this at the hands of the lay men since for quiet of their consciences they would not aske approbation though the Bishop offered to giue it vnder his hand seale that it should be no preiudice to them wheras the Bishop as the Deuine sayth for quiet of lay men consciences approued the Regulars to his owne preiudice though they would not aske it I answere that lay mens consciences were quiet enough till my Lord Bishop begāne to disquiet them with needles scruples that therfore they were not so much beholding to him for quieting them afterwards as they were little beholding to him for disquieting them at first Secondly Lay men saw well enough it was some thing else then the quiet of their consciences which moued his Lordship to that course of mouing approbations to wit to haue his Authority which he pretendeth therby published and acknowledged For otherwise he might either haue approued all Regulars without more a do at first or haue dealt the matter priuatly with them and they denying to aske approbation he might haue expected the award of the Sea Apostolique without further acquainting Lay Catholiques who he might be sure for all yet he could say would securely rely their consciences vpō the word of so many so vertuous and so learned men as are in the seuerall Orders of Regulars Besides that they the Regulars giue so good reason in their owne Letter to the Bishop and there were so many so good reasons alleadged in a shorter letter of a Priest for that matter that no mā that would be ruled by reason would either doubt of the power of Regulars to heere cōfessions or thinke that my Lord Bishop himselfe being so learned a man could doubt of it therfore they might wel thinke he meant that but by the By and aimed at another matter principally and so they answered that which seemed to them the principal matter more largly and touched the other but briefly Now for Regulars to aske his Lordships approbation where the matter was so manifest was wholy vnnecessary besids that though his Lordship should giue it vnder his hand and seale that it should be no preiudice to them it is like they knew it might be preiudiciall in some respect or other for the very asking it as necessary argueth a dependency But for his Lordships approbation which this Deuine saith he gaue to Regulars with his owne preiudice I do not see wherein it can be preiudiciall for he approued them but only for a time til the matter be decided without preiudice of his owne or his successours right wherein then hath he yielded one iot of his right suppose he had any Nay this manner of granting it was a putting of himselfe in possession In which respect the Regulars were wise inough not to make any acceptance of it Or wherein hath he more obliged the Laymen then the Regulars haue vnlesse it be by disquieting them with new pretences And for some part of satisfaction approueth all Regulars whereby he obligeth Catholiques like as that man doth that first breaketh anothers head and then giueth him a plaister So much then for that answere of this Deuines demaunds and clearing what he sayth of the Laymens motiues But what if before I passe to another Section I should touch a little vpon the the motiue which maketh the Deuine and others of his mind to be so vehement in the pursuite of this pretended Authority that they will heare no reason to the contrary They say it is spirituall good of soules by administring the Sacrament of Confirmation by hallowing oyles by keeping vnity and good life because it is the institution of Christ because it hath beene obserued in Gods Church in all tymes of persecution But these cannot be the motiues for as for Confirmation and hallowing of oyles it is cleare they may be without the authority of Ordinary therefore cannot be the ground of such claime For keeping vnity and good life it is as cleare that Authority can do litle in it as things stand now and that it is only perswasion and fayr meanes that must do it For the institution of Christ sure it is not that in all places and in all tymes there must of necessity be particular Bishops in euery particular Diocesse or Country for if it were so then should those 10. Popes frō Pius 4. to Paulus 5. haue offēded grieuously in not creating a Bishop heere Nay these two last viz. Greg. the 15. and his Holines that now is Vrbanus 8. should offend in not making so many Bishops as we haue Bishopricks How then can this Deuine inforce out of the institution of Christ that my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon should haue the Authority of Ordinary in England For the obseruāce of Episcopal power in the Church in all tymes of persecution it is true there haue euer beene Bishops and would still be though there should be no Ordinary in England for a tyme. But where when and how for particular places it hath euer depended vpon the wisdom of the Sea Apostolique giuing Bishops in such manner and with extent of power as time place hath required So when some Citties or Coūtries haue beene first conuerted to the fayth they haue giuen them Bishops when they haue quite fallen away they haue forborne to giue them any now heere in our Kingdome which hath fallen away by Heresy yet so as there be some Catholiques left with hope
of totall restitution of the Catholique fayth when Almighty God shall please the Sea Apostolique dealeth most prudently sending men hither with so much power as is necessary and expedient for Catholiques at this tyme reseruing the fullnesse of Ordinary Episcopall power till the full restitution of Catholike Religion in this Kingdome For so Catholiques are well assured that his Lordship is not Ordinary howsoeuer the Deuine cry nothing but Pastour and lawfull Pastour at euery word But men giue him the hearing only they cannot but woūnder that he should so brauely carry out the matter as if there were no Declaration or order to the contrary when he cannot but know that my Lord Bishop hath had more orders thē one to that purpose Nay that my Lord Bishop hath acknowledged the receipt of them else where though heere he do not and hath promised to cease from further stirring though we do not yet see the performance of it vnlesse it be that his Lordship indeed forbeare but that his Officers wil not be obedient to him in that wherin they may soone do his Lordship much wrong For their faults wil be imputed to him Now because this Deuine sayth Episcopall power hath beene euer obserued in the Church in all times of persecution whatsoeuer inferring thereupon that here now in England there ought to be a Bishop I would wish him to consider whether euen in the primitiue Church the persecution were like ours in some respects for though it were more bloudy◠and the tormēts more various and cruel yet it was but by fits and generally the Christians had their Cripts placed vnder ground and howses dedicated to that vse wherein they had a publike kind of exercise of their faith euen by publike allowance and Priests and Clergy men were distinguished by their habit tonsure or shauing of their crowne as it is vsed now generally in the Catholique Church But our case is farre different for heere we haue much ado to heare Masse in a corner as priuate as may be without discouery how much lesse might we haue those other things which belong to the Authority of an Ordinary But of this againe in another place These things considered since none of these spiritual cōmodities which this Deuine speaketh off are necessarily cōnected with the Authority of Ordinary neither are so necessary but that a man may be a good Christian and Catholique without them they cannot be the true motiue of pursuing the matter with such violence and heate to the greater scandall and harme of the Catholique cause then all the Authority my Lord Bishop would haue or this Deuine haue for him wil do good and therefore men are induced to thinke that the true motiue is Ambition desire of Rule interest in the fortunes of Lay men disposing of Legacies in maius bonum as would be pretended iudgemēt of controuersies betweene party party without their consents and by little and little to draw into practise a vexation by the seuerall tribunals vpon Catholiques This I will not say but surely there be great presumptions for it for if their reasons were good they would carry things with more tēper they would with a litle more patience endure to heare men propound their reasons to the cōtrary they would quietly expect the determination of the Sea Apostolique and obey it when it commeth besids that in their very discourses they cānot but bewray somwhat of their minds concerning Legacies monyes for pious vses But I will say no more of it but passe to another Section SECT IIII. That the Temporall daungers are not meerly pretended THE Deuine in his 4. Section laboureth by many reasons to proue that the tēporall Daungers are but pretended which is but euen the same that he said in the former Section in other words For though he sayth in the title that their motiues were worldly yet in his discourse he sayth that those were not their true motiues but their passionatenesse to Regulars and so he sayth heere yet I must yield to follow him though he saith but the same things ouer againe His first reason to proue the daungers to be only pretended is because they neuer mentioned those daungers till approbation was moued to Regulars which was about Easter 1627. whereas Episcopal Authority had beene restored since the yeare 1623. I answere first that wheras he sayth that Episcopall Authority was restored I see not how that can be said to be restored which neuer was for when was there euer a Bishop of Chalcedon in Englād with power of Ordinary in England before this mans predecessour Secondly Catholiques did little dreame at first of any such Authority as my Lord Bishop challengeth For the forraine title of Chalcedon gaue thē some assurance that he was not to be a Bishop like as in former Catholique tymes And though they heard somtymes of the word Ordinary amōg some of my Lords Clergy yet they made no great matter of it not knowing any great ground Notwithstanding they were desirous to know what Authority the Bishop had and for that cause vsed all the meanes they could to see his Letters or Faculties but they could not get a sight of them which made them begin to suspect somwhat and so they began to be a litle more carefull then before especially hearing of diuers things done by my Lord of Chalcedons officers as Excommunicating of some and threatning others as also comming to see the Letters Patents wherby his Lordship did create his Archdeacons true and lawfull Rulers and Ecclesiasticall Superiours of the Laity which when they saw they began to cōsult among themselues what was fit to be done And all this was before that euer my Lord of Chalcedon moued any thing about Approbation of Regulars And without question they would haue done what they did for their owne security though the matter of Approbation had neuer beene moued to Regulars It may be when they saw the flame breake out so strōg against Regulars who were otherwise exempt by challenging of a thing which could not belon◠but to a proper Ordinary in his Diocesse it might quickē them make them go about what they were doing with a little more speed and therupon they drew certaine points concerning my Lord of Chalcedons Authority in which they were desirous to be resolued and all of them concerning themselues and such as they had heard many of my Lord of Chalcedons Officers and friends speake of as things that were like to be put in practise But because it was not fit for thē to go vpon vncertaine reports they were desirous to know of my Lord of Chalcedon himselfe what his Lordship did conceiue to belong vnto him so that this Deuine is cleane out of his way in making the matter of approbatiō of Regulars the cause of the Laymens stirring His second reason to proue the daungers to be pretended only is because no man hath beene in daunger since the restitution of Episcopall Authority For answer to
this reason I remit this Deuine to a great friend of my Lord Bishops who is wont to alledge his fauour to my Lord Bishop for a reason of the Kings displeasure towards him I might for answer also alledge the Proclamations much and continual searching for him which hath brought so great vexation vpon Catholiques and vpon many Priests taken by his occasion but that I list not much to medle in such a matter as this Only this I may tell the Deuine that my Lord Bishop himselfe as I haue beene credibly informed tooke notice and exceptiō to the speachs of some Catholiques of worth who spake feelingly of what they suffered by his occasion and wished he would for auoyding their trouble withdraw himselfe which sheweth that Catholiques find the contrary of what this Deuine would make them beleeue His 3. reason is because there can be no greater daunger iustly pretended against one Bishop then against so many Priests they being forbidden by the moderne lawes and he being not forbidden by either moderne or anciēt lawes Wherto I answer that as I haue shewed before the daunger is far greater For Episcopall Authority is so much more forbidden as it is greater Authority deriued from the sea of Rome and a double Authority For besides the iurisdiction of forum internum which Priests haue the Bishop would haue another of forum externum which is much more against the moderne lawes then the former Besides that I haue shewed before that the Authority which my Lord Bishop of Chalcedon challengeth is truly against our ancient Lawes The 4. reason is because there is no Law ancient or moderne against Catholique Episcopall Authority for the ancient lawes forbid an extraordinary Tribunall as that of Legates and ordayne only for Catholique tymes when there were true Episcopall tribunals which they would not haue disturbed by extraordinary Tribunals and so are rather in fauour of vsuall Episcopal Authority as the Bishop of Chalcedons is then any way against it that they are only against a new Tribunall such as a Catholique Episcopall tribunall is not For this reason I answere it is the same with the former and hath beene oft repeated the often repetition of the same discouering the want of matter the Deuine hath The substance of the argument I answered fully before in the answere to the 2. poynt of Temerity where I shewed this Tribunall which he pretendeth to be new and to be by many degrees more neere a Legatiue then an Episcopall Tribunall though indeed neither and so not onely extraordinary but most extraordinary Heere therfore I wil onely speake of that which the Deuine decideth so plainly of my Lord of Chalcedons Tribunall in saying the auncient lawes are rather in fauour of vsuall Episcopall Authority such as my Lord Bishop of Chalcedons is wherin I cānot but note how this Deuine is a little more free in auouching my Lord Bishops Tribunall or power in foro externo then I belieue my Lord Bishop himselfe or some of his more wary Officers are when they write or speake to men of vnderstanding For though my Lord Bishops words in his owne Letter did seeme very plaine in this point as that he was delegated by his Holynes to an vniuersality of causes belonging to Ordinaries and that he was made a Iudge in prima instantia yet afterwards in a certayne Letter to a Lady which hath beene seene vnder his owne hand his Lordship sayth that concerning the new Tribunall which some say he hath erected it is a meere fiction inuented without ground for he neuer thought of erecting such a Tribunall and that his Authority ouer them is meerly spirituall as the wordes of his Breue are in Spirituale bonum Catholicorum to wit to administer to them that Sacramēt which they cannot haue but by a Bishop c. And in conformity hereof there being a meeting appointed by some of the Clergy and some of the Layty and Conference held concerning this Letter of my Lords to the Lady those of the sayd Clergy that were there and were lyke to know most of my Lord Bishops mynd acknowledged and conformably themselues sayd that my Lord Bishop neuer intended any such Tribunall And it went so far as that the Lay Gentlemen drew a certayne Letter to the same effect in explication of his Lordships first Letter in which he sayd his meaning was mistakē which his Lordship might please to write to the Laity expressing as much to thē as he had done to the Lady which though it were no more then he had already written and was confessed by his owne officers yet he would not write it for what reason I know not Nay this Deuine himselfe in mayntayning this Tribunall seemeth a little contrary to himselfe For in his first section and 3. point of Passion he complayneth of the Gentlemen for stretching as he sayth my Lord Bishops words vpon the Tēter hooks in that they vnderstood his Lordships words of an Episcopall Tribunall or power in foro externo Whereas sayth he the Bishop speaketh onely of such Authority as Ordinaries haue or can hane in their Diocesse and which was sufficient to exact of Regulars that they should aske his approbation And a little after Where sayth he in all the Bishops Letter is there one word of temporall Authority or of Authority ouer temporall fortunes or such as haue beene altered or directed by our Temporall Princes What word then of the Bishops enforced them to make this sense None surely but their owne passiō which made them make this forced sense this forced inference These are the Deuines owne words which I do not see well how he can reconcile with his words in this place Wherfore though I will not take vpon me to teach such a Deuine yet I may say he should haue beene better aduised and agreed better vpon his tale both with himselfe and with others of his owne sayde before he had fallen to write and so perhaps he might haue saued himselfe all this needlesse labour of writing and me the labour of answearing for neyther he nor any else can well tel what Authority they would haue for my Lord Bishop onely Authority they would haue for him and for themselues But what or how they cannot tell For fayne they would haue his Lordship to haue Authority of Ordinary for without that they cannot so well compasse their ends nor with it neyther I may truly say And yet they find such mayne obstacles on the other syde making it not only difficult but euen impossible that they are fayne for shame sake to deny all such pretences And thence it is that sometymes they say one thing sometymes another Sometymes that he is Ordinary sometymes that he hath faculties only for the spirituall good of Catholickes c. And they are so nice and wary when they speake with people that vnderstand things or may make any vse of their words that one cannot tell well what they say and yet they are more free
there then we heere yet they haue only a Bishop with a forraine Title and I belieue with power farre short of that which this Deuine would faine haue for my Lord of Chalcedon Where if they had Bishops Bishops Courts as we haue such lawes of auncient and late times as we haue I doubt whether they would haue euen that But to be brief I say in a word that our Kingdome is more different frō both Ireland and Holland then they two are from perfect Catholique countryes And whereas this Deuine bringeth a place of Scripture for proofe of the prouidence of God thereby to make men not so to stād vpon secrecy I may bring two to the cōtrary One is that of our Sauiour Math. 4. Non tentabis Dominum Deum tuum thou shalt not tempt thy Lord God as they do that put themselues into needlesse perils Another is that of our Sauiour also which he gaue to his Apostles when he sent thē to preach Matth. 10. Ecce ego mitto vos sicut oues in medio luporum estete ergo prudētes sicut serpentes simplices sicut columbae Cauete autem ab hominibus tradent enim vos c. Behould I send you as shep amiddest wolues be therefore prudent as serpents and simple as doues but beware of men for they will betray you c. Which admonition is as proper for our Country our tymes as euer it was for any And therefore notwithstanding our Deuines confidence I shall wish still that with sincerity and zeale men ioyne prudence or else their zeale may do more harme then good And we find by experience that the prudent secrecy of some hath beene a greater meanes of preseruing Catholique Religion in these hard times thē the ouer-hardy zeale of others And so much for the fourth Section SECT V. That their cause of publique disauowing the Bishops Authority is not pretended and feigned VVHEREAS the Catholiques in their Letter say that it was vnsafe for them to haue beene silent so long towards his Lordship so clayming publishing his Authority this Deuine saith that they pretend the cause of disauowing the Bishops power of Ordinary was the feare of daunger of the State if they had not so done Which to be meerely feigned he proueth by many reasons all of them almost alledged and answered before But as he alledgeth them heere againe so must I be faine to repeat the answers The first is because no vsuall Authority of an Ordinary which alone the Bishop claymeth but at most Extraordinary of Legates and such like was forbidden by the ancient lawes without the Princes approbation I answere as before that my Lord Bishops Authority which he claymeth is not that vsuall Authority of an Ordinary but that extraordinary of Legates and such like as appeareth plainly by the wordes of his owne Letter wherin he sayth he is not Ordinary Ordinario modo but Extraordinario as Legats Nūtio's such like Now that is vsuall Authority for an Ordinary which is had in the vsual manner therfore that Authority which he claymeth is that which is forbydden by the aunicent lawes The 2. reason because those lawes were made for Catholique tymes and in fauour of Catholique Ordinaryes not for herelicall tymes and in fauour of hereticall Ordinaries against Catholiques I answere well be it so Doth this Deuine thinke in his Conscience such an Answere would quit a man that should stand at the barre for acknowledging of my Lord Bishops Ordinaryshippe or Iudicatiue Power Sure he cannot thinke it For though the law were made in a Catholique tyme when they litle dreamed of such a change as hath beene since yet now the tymes are changed and Protestant Ordinaryes are come in place of Catholiques all the power priuiledges of the one conferred vpon the other and the Law not repealed are not men still liable What with right and what with might questionlesse a man would be found guilty For his 3. reason he saith he much suspecteth that only priuity doth not make a man guilty but granteth it of acknowledgement or participation But he asketh what need they had to take knowledge of such Authority For the Bishop he sayth wrote but one Letter of this matter which came to few hands and far fewer can be conuinced to haue seene it I answere that for the priuity though this Deuine say he suspecteth that wil not make a man guilty yet I presume he cannot be so bad a Lawyer as not to know that priuity in matter of felony or treason maketh a man accessary if he but onely know it and not discouer it If accessary then certaynely guilty and this is generall in all criminall maters without exception Why then should he make question in this matter Or taking knowledg of it I would faine heare how could any man auoyde it Suppose any man should haue been questioned for acknow ledgement of his Lordships Authority could he pleade ignorance of his Lordships clayme it being made by a Letter written to all the Catholiques of England for their satisfaction and to let them know what Authority he had Would it seeme probable that any Catholique should not see or heare of such a Letter Now that the Letter was but one that it came to few hands It is true it was but one But that one was inough and more then inough For what he sayth of the Letters comming to few hands I answere first it seemeth by the matter and manner of writing to haue beene my Lord Bishops intention that it should come to more Secondly it is well knowne that there were more copies made and some of my Lords Clergy had the care speedily to diuulge it so as it was diuulged in some remote parts of England at the very same tyme it was published heere How then can this Deuine say the Letter came but to few mens hands And for being conuinced to haue seene it in so publique a thing as that was no man will stand to proue it but presume it as any man wel may For what Catholique could be ignorant of it The 4. reason is That many monethes before my Lord Bishop published his Authority of Ordinary these Gentlemen sent Interrogatories as this Deuine termeth them vnto him to haue him declare whether he was Ordinary or no. So as he sayth they were rather desyrous he should declare himselfe to be Ordinary then conceale it It is true Catholiques saw many things they could not tell what to make of and so might be willing to know certainly and from his Lordship himselfe what Authority he had but might not the answere haue beene priuate as the demaunds were They were desirous to know but not so that all the world must know they knew had they knowne in priuate they might haue represented the inconueniency and daungers priuately to my Lords consideration But his Lordship feared some such thing and therfore made answere in such publique manner as to carry the matter cleere without reply But
that put men vpon a greater necessity of reply As for that which he sayth that they seemed desirous he should declare himselfe Ordinary it is playne they desyred it not but the cleane contrary But whatsoeuer it was that he pretended they desyred to know it The fifth reason is That the Bishop euer since his comming auouched himselfe Ordinary and till the matter of approbation of Regulars his Ordinaryship was not questioned nor daunger pretended whereof he sayth they cannot deny but they had some priuity I answere that heere againe the Deuine forgetteth himselfe for he was angry before with Catholiques for vnderstanding the Bishops owne words in his Letter so plainly of his Ordinaryship and yet he would haue them take notice of ordinary vncertayne reports It is true therefore that they heard sometymes speaches as if he were Ordinary but they made not much account of them for his predecessour was sometymes sayd to be Ordinary also and yet he neuer pretended any Authority ouer them that they could heare But when they heard of many things which his Lordships Officers did and of peremptory and Authoritatiue Letters which they writ with the Iudicatiue manner of proceeding of some Rurall Deanes and saw the very Patents or Letters of institution of Archdeacons playnely signifying the same then they beganne to looke about them and to enquire a litle more of that Ordinaryshippe what it meant and whether my Lord of Chalcedon tooke himself to haue the same power which Bishops had heretofore in Catholique tymes and so sent to his Lordship to know it from himselfe so that all this while they had no priuity of it nor after till his Lordship published it by his Letter The 6. reason They gaue this Letter to be sent to Rome and as some say saith he long before they sent it to the Bishop and desired the Bishop that it might be knowne abroad Now to what end was it sent to Rome and desired to be sent abroad if it were made only for the state I answere that the Deuine with his as some say is egregiously mistaken in saying the Letter was sent to Rome before it was sent to the Bishop for there be others that know better then all his some sayes if there be any besides himself which auerre the contrary Now for the demaund why it was sent to Rome and desired to be sent abroad if it were onely made for the State I demaund againe where he findeth that it was made onely for the state If he meane that the chiefe reason of writing it was to declare the dangers inconueniences which might fall vpon them from the state by acknowledgment and admittance of his Lordships pretended Authority it is true but that is not all one as to say that it was made onely for the state For it was made principally for his Lordship for those of whome his power and the enlarging and diminishing therof doth depend to see that considering the daungers and inconueniences both his Lordship might please to desist from such pretensions others forbeare to graunt such power as was so daungerous and so peiudiciall to Catholiques Now what inconsequence was there in this to desire his Lordship to make it knowne abroad or fearing with themselues for they expressed no such feare to him that he would not they sent it by some other meanes What a doughty reason then is this to proue the Catholiques cause to be pretended and feigned The 7. reason When Father Campian came in and made publique chalenge of disputation in print and proclamations were made agaynst him what Catholique did publiquely disauowe him or his Authority or faculties My answere to this is that I see not what there is to answere for what likenes can there be imagined in this argument saue onely the publiquenesse of Father Campians challenge of disputation and the publiquenesse of my Lord Bishops clayme of Authority Which if it be sufficient then I will make the Deuines argument a little better for him by asking why Catholikes do not disauow al Letters or Breues of the Sea Apostolike nay al bookes written of Controuersies in defence of the Catholique Fayth for these are publique Now I assure my selfe there is no Deuine in the world so dull but can easily find a great deale of difference betweene these two last and my Lord Bishops Letter though one be much more like the instance of Father Campians challenge But because the Deuine perhaps will not be willing to find a difference I will do it for him It was not Father Campians doing nor meaning to publish any such challenge but made two Copies of his writing one to haue about himselfe in case he should be taken suddenly before he should haue time to do any thing of what he came for and another in a freinds hand with order to publish it when he should be taken if by chaunce as it was most like his aduersaries should suppresse that which he should haue about him But his friend not obseruing this order goeth and publisheth it of himself So the publishing was not his doing Besides it was a particular acte which concerned himselfe only without relation to Catholiques no matter of Authority or iurisdiction eyther in foro externo or interno but a necessary defence of the Catholique fayth at that tyme no exercise so much as of Priestly function but a thing which any Layman for the thing it self might do What need then of disauowing his Authority or Faculties for that matter Now my Lord Bishops Letter was intended to be publique as being written to Catholiques so that they could not but know of it hauing also for the matter particuler relation to them the subiect of the Letter an authority of an outward Court or Tribunall not necessary at this time nor conuenient for the defence or propagation of the Catholique faith but offensiue to the State dangerous to Catholiques as being contrary to the auncient and moderne lawes grieuous in regard of many inconueniences which it bringeth with it and the very knowledge much more admittance wherof bringeth daunger What then doth this Deuine talke of disauowing Authority facultyes such as Fa. Campian had as if any mā denied them to my Lord Bishop No no man denieth or disauoweth thē or any thing else of my Lord Bishops but only they desire not to be pressed to the admittance of that Authority of Ordinary which without any furtherance or any the least necessity of their spirituall good may bring many temporall daūgers vpon thē put them into more straites then they haue beene this time of persecution Which truly is but a very ordinary and reasonable request There is no affinity therefore betweene my Lord Bishops claime of Authority and F. Campians challenge of Disputation The eight reason It is more notorious that there are many hundred of Priests then one Bishop and more seuere lawes against any priuity or participatiō with them then for the Bishop and yet these
men sayth he make no publique disauow of Priests Authority nor account theÌ„selues vnsafe for hauing beene so long silent I answere that the reason is idle Suppose there were as many thousands of Priests as there are hundreds nay if there were as many Bishop as there are Priests if they had not the power of Ordinary what were that to our purpose the question being of an Ordinary with power in foro externo Now for the daunger of a Priest or Bishop whether greater is impertinent as long as the one is necessary the other not Besides that such Bishoply Authority with the daungers and incoÌ„ueniences proper to it selfe bringeth with it the dauÌ„gers of Priestly Authority The Deuine could not but know thus much of himselfe and yet he must put downe this reason to make number The ninth reason None but these 3. and some few of their adherents apprehend this daunger of being silent touching the Bishops Authority yet many haue more to loose then they a Noble man tould them by publique Letter that Timebant vbi non erat timor I answere for the number and worth of the Persons that apprehend this daunger there is enough sayd before the thing is so well knowne that surely this Deuine would not haue ventured his credit by speaking so apparent an vntruth but that he concealed his name For the Noble mans saying I answere it with the wisemans saying sapiens timet declinat à malo stultus transilit confidit The wiseman feareth and auoydeth euill the foole leapeth ouer and consideth The 10. reason The Monkes made clayme of a farre greater Authority and farre more daungerous to the Laity and in a more publique maÌ„ner by many printed copyes and yet these men do not go about to disauowe the same publiquely I answere that till my Lord Bishops Letter no man heard of any such matter from the Benedictines or any else Therefore if there were any daunger in their clayme we may plainly thanke my Lord Bishops Letter as the cause thereof Secondly the same Letter wherby the Catholiques desired to be excused from my Lord of Chalcedons Ordinaryship is sufficient against that or any other booke that shal clayme such Authority as things stand heere in England and therefore there needeth no other disclayming Now for their claime I do not see that for the present they exact any such matter of subiection from Catholiques but only say they keepe a kind of possession of their ancient right against the tyme shal serue for it and that if they would stand vpon it they might better do it then my Lord of Chalcedon Now what offence or daunger is this to Catholiques And for the publiquenesse the book is printed indeed but no way directed to Catholiques but to their owne Religious But this Deuine that in this place thinketh much that meÌ„ do not disauow this Booke I presume was priuy to another Paper deliuered vp at Rome wherein it was sayd that the Layty were much offended at such a vast claime how do these hang together But that was for the purpose in that place this it seemeth in this and he perhaps thought the same man should neuer come to see both the papers But as close as that and such like papers are carried by this Deuine his friends they come to light one way or other little to their credit that care so little for truth in what they say The last reason is deliuered by the Deuine in these words Lastly what needed they to haue inceÌ„sed the state against the Bishop therefore these pretences are ad excusandas excusationes in peccatiâ— whereas the true cause was to help some Regulars to banish Episcopall power out of England This is the Deuines ConclusioÌ„ Whereto I answere that for a conclusion I did expect a concluding reason but it is so farre from concluding that I see no shew of reason For how doth the asking of this question what they needed to incense the State against the Bishop proue that the cause of writing their letter was pretended The Deuine might haue made this a motiue which might haue moued them not to write their Letter to the Bishop in that manner but to make it an argument to proue that their pretence was faygned I see not with what Logick it can stand But now for the matter it is a strange thing that a Deuine should haue no more scruple then to charge meÌ„ of knowne vertue and wisedome with incensing the State against the Bishop Were it not more time for him to study his cases examine well his ConscieÌ„ce then to stand censuring men so deeply and so iniuriously What do they say tending this way That the erecting of a new tribunall will moue the State to a more exact search c For this I haue answered before and shewed that this is sayd to the cleane contrary end to wit to decline the Search and Persecution which his Lordships clayme would bring vpon himself and others and by their saying to appease that which his Lordships doing would incense Which if it seeme preiudiciall vnto him is wholy besydes their meaning and he may thâ—nke himselfe for it For they in this do but defend themselues cum moderamine inculpatae tutclae Therefore to answere this Deuines applied place of Scripture of excuses in sinnes I may now aske him in behalfe of these Gentlemen and all others whose letter it was Quis ex vobis arguet 〈◊〉 de peccato St malè locutus sum testimonium perhibe de malo Si autem benè quid â—ecaedis Who of you will accuse me of sinne If I haue spoken ill beare witnesse of the ill but if well why dost thou strike me And for the last word of all that the true cause was to help some Regulars to banish Episcopall power out of England being but a bitter gal belike of a distempred stomack to end withall and deseruing rather pitty then answere I let it alone wishing this Deuine the same measure of Charity which he desireth of Authority both for his owne good and the quiet of others boing more his friend therein then himselfe AN ADVERTISEMENT GOod Reader This Treatise was written two yeares ago wheÌ„ the forsayd Iudgment of this Deuine began to go vp downe but that other Bookes coÌ„ming then out and ministring other occasion of Discourse the Author thought better to let it alone as he would haue done wholy but that now of late the same Letter of the Catholiques being a new published with A Declaration to the same effect some of the other side began to repeate their former vngrounded Discourses For rectifying whereof and stating the Question aright the Author hath thought fit now to publish the same FINIS Initio Aug. 1627. Anno 1627. Nauar. apud Tol. lib. â— c. â—0 〈…〉
of their tongue then their penne For they will not giue halfe that vnder their hands which they talke freely But if they went vpon a sure ground and meant nothing but wel and fairely what should all this need Well then so it is that the Deuine doth heere challenge more Authority for my Lord Bishop to wit a true Episcopall tribunal then his Lordship doth for himselfe For in his sayd Letter to the Lady vnder his own hand he saith it is a fictioÌ„ to which Letter I remit this man for answere to his 4. reason After these 4. substantiall reasons to proue that the daungers are only pretended this Deuine cometh to answere that which the Lay men say in their Letter that the execution of this Episcopall Authority alloweth no possibility of secrecy by asking why not aswell as the execution of Priestly function who say masse preach and communicate before many scores of men women and Children whereas to the Bishops Tribunall there come no children few women and not many men He asketh moreouer how the Bishop hath gone ouer almost all England and confirmed many thousands with sufficient secrecy How was secrecy kept in the primitiue Church How is it now kept in Ireland and Holland To this I answere first that it is no wonder that such men as this Deuine relate the case of English Catholiques elswhere as they please to strangers when this Deuine will tell men heere at home such a tale as this is in writing Secondly I tell him though he cannot but know it the Execution of Episcopall Authority in a Court is of its own nature publique There must of necessity be a Iudge and other Officers there must be partyes there must be witnesses there must be writing there must be records some must be sometymes grieued some will complaine some will appeale Is any of all this needfull in hearing of Masse Sermons or receyuing of Sacraments May not a man heare a Masse confesse and communicate without a Iudge a Summoner a Notary without an accuser a witnesse without a writing c What then doth this Deuine meane to bring such an argument Suppose there be 10. persons at Masse may there not be one alone Can a busines be so dispatched iuâ—idically in a Bishops Court without writing witnesse or Officer Nay againe suppose there must of necessity be 20. at Masse and a busines in the Bishops Court might be dispatched but with the priuity of 2. men would not euen this be more publique in regard the things must remayne in writing with note of place tyme and other circumstances or that one of the partyes may be grieued as it falleth out commonly in matters of suite For the Secrecy of the Bishops going ouer a great part of England coÌ„firming I am full glad that he they haue done so well with it and wish they may do so still But for all that it is not good bragging and as secret as it is I know many a right good man that would be loath to haue it so well knowne when he hath a Priest in his house as it is knowne whersoeuer almost his Lordship went and the secrecy it seemeth was so great in some places that there was a great complaint made in Parliament to what bouldnes the Papists were growne to haue a Bishop to whome there was such resort in a certayne place in Staffordshire where he confirmed many and shewed himselfe in his Pontificall Ornaments Thirdly I answere that suppose the Bishops going vp and downe and confirming were as secret and voyd of daunger as this Deuine would haue it what doth it make for his purpose Which is to proue that a Bishops Tribunall alloweth as much secrecy as the exercise of Priestly function For who doubteth but the Bishop may if he will confirme a man as priuatly as a Priest may communicate him Doth it then follow that he may with the same priuacy iudge and determine a controuersy betweene party and party What manner of arguing then is this Now for the Primitiue Church which our Deuine speaketh of I sayd a word before and it is cleare there is a great deale of difference For that persecution was more by fits more violent for the tyme but shorter in the interim there were such calmes as Christians had free resort to publique places of prayer and sacrifice and houses deputed and dedicated for that vse and that not onely by a conniuency but euen by publique allowance of the Emperours restoring vnto them their Churches permitting of free accesse to them the Cemiteries or places of buriall where the bodyes of the Christians and Martyrs reliques were buryed and kept There was an outward appareÌ„t distinction in habit and haire betweene Clergy men others Where hath there beene any thing like this all this time of Schisme in England Haue not men inough to do to heare a Masse priuatly in a corner Where is there a Church to say Masse or to preach or an Oratory for meÌ„ to meet pray togeather or Church-yard for Catholiques to bury their dead Or where is there a Priest or Religious man that goeth publiquely in his habit or with his crowne shauen Would not any man count one halfe mad that should go so because they did so sometimes in the Primitiue Church What wonder then is it if in the Primitiue Church Bishops kept their Tribunals Prouinciall CouÌ„cels met with many scores of Bishops as the Deuine sayth Though by his leaue they met not so freely nor exercised their Authority so much at all times to wit in those hoate fittes of persecution And what a wonder is it for our Deuine who must be supposed to haue a little knowledge of the Ecclesiastical History to bob men heere in the mouth with the state of the Primitiue Church The same is of Ireland and Holland For Ireland Catholique Bishops haue still continued in their seuerall Seas with their proper titles heresy hauing neuer taken so deep root there But heere it is well knowne that when our Catholique Bishops were suppressed they during their liues forbare the exercise of that power which they were in possession of the state of things being such as it was and impossible to exercise Episcopal Authority wherefore the Sea Apostolique did not put any Bishop in their place during the space of 60 yeares till of late the state of things nothing changed but only that for matters of life death the lawes were not so rigorously put in execution vpon informatioÌ„ of some men who longed for Myters as if the times were now for it Gregory the 15. of happy memory condescended to their importunity sending one with Title of a Bishop but not with that full power which belongeth to a Catholique Country which experience sheweth to be more then the times can well beare What comparison then betwene Ireland and England Now for Holland though considering the littlenesse of persecution they might ten tims better haue a Bishop