not permitted to go quietly to the performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there were no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament and to this Bill they got the Kings Assent and in the beginning of September after they voted that the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the King's Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members for I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely any way to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenents and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should act for their purposes but not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourably laid to their charge the main cause of pulling them down was the envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be governed A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be revenged on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their Purses and win to their Service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest in it of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of governing all the World What is it they are learned in Is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preach'd but matter of Philosophy For Religion in it self admits no controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his Will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scripture was written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew Tongues it was once to the Detection of Roman fraud and to the ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary but now that 's done and we have the Scripture in English and preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by understanding well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the World before the power of Popes was set up that Philosophy was much conducing to Power in a Common-wealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity have very much conduced to the advancement of the Professors thereof to Places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the ancient Kingdoms of the World as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and Places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France What Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France says thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets these Men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the Multitude obedient to them And a little after It is a Custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same Language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Countrey more Eastward than Judea Were not these in great Authority in their Countrey And are they not in most part of Christendome thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most ancient Kingdom and Nation of the World and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subjects ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus says thus The whole Countrey of Aegypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have one as being of most credit with the People both for their Devotion towards the Gods and also for their understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally these men in the greatest Affairs of all are the King's Councellors partly executing and partly informing and advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection
shall approve of that the Servants then about them against whom the Houses have just exception should be removed 5. That no Marriage be concluded or treated of for any of the King's Children without consent of Parliament 6. That the Laws in force against Jesuits Priests and Popish Recusants be strictly put in execution 7. That the Votes of Popish Lords in the House of Peers be taken away and that a Bill be passed for the education of the Children of Papists in the Protestant Religion 8. That the King will be pleased to reform the Church-Government and Lyturgy in such manner as both Houses of Parliament shall advise 9. That he would be pleased to rest satisfied with that Course that the Lords and Commons have appointed for ordering the Militia and recall his Declarations and Proclamations against it 10. That such Members as have been put out of any Place or Office since this Parliament began may be restored or have satisfaction 11. That all Privy-Councellors and Judges take an Oath the form whereof shall be agreed on and setled by Act of Parliament for the maintaining the Petition of Right and of certain Statutes made by the Parliament 12. That all the Judges and Officers placed by Approbation of both Houses of Parliament may hold their places quam diu bene se gesserint 13. That the Justice of Parliament may pass upon all Delinquents whether they be within the Kingdom or fled out of it and that all persons cited by either House of Parliament may appear and abide the Censure of Parliament 14. That the General Pardon offered by his Majesty be granted with such Exceptions as shall be advised by both Houses of Parliament B. What a spiteful Article was this All the rest proceeded from Ambition which many times well-natur'd men are subject to but this proceeded from an inhumane and devilish cruelty A. 15. That the Forts and Castles be put under the Command of such persons as with the Approbation of the Parliament the King shall appoint 16. That the extraordinary Guards about the King be discharged and for the future none raised but according to the Law in case of actual Rebellion or Invasion B. Methinks these very Propositions sent to the King are an actual Rebellion A. 17. That his Majesty enter into a more strict Alliance with the United Provinces and other Neighbour Protestant Princes and States 18. That his Majesty be pleased by Act of Parliament to clear the Lord Kimbolton and the five Members of the House of Commons in such manner as that future Parliaments may be secur'd from the consequence of that evil President 19. That his Majesty be pleased to pass a Bill for restraining Peers made hereafter from sitting or voting in Parliament unless they be admitted with consent of both Houses of Parliament These Propositions granted they promise to apply themselves to regulate his Majesties Revenue to his best advantage and to settle it to the support of his Royal Dignity in Honour and Plenty and also to put the Town of Hull into such Hands as his Majesty shall appoint with consent of Parliament B. Is not that to put it into such hands as his Majesty shall appoint by the consent of the Petitioners which is no more than to keep it in their hands as it is Did they want or think the King wanted common sense so as not to perceive that their promise herein was worth nothing A. After the sending of these Propositions to the King and his Majesties refusal to grant them they began on both sides to prepare for War The King raising a Guard for his Person in York-shire and the Parliament thereupon having Voted that the King intended to make War upon his Parliament gave order for the mustering and exercising the People in Arms and published Propositions to invite and incourage them to bring in either ready Money or Plate or to promise under their hands to furnish and maintain certain numbers of Horse Horse-men and Arms for the defence of the King and Parliament meaning by King as they had formerly declar'd not his Person but his Laws promising to repay their Money with Interest of 8 l. in the 100 l. and the value of their Plate with 12 d. the Ounce for the fashion On the other side the King came to Nottingham and there did set up his Standard Royal and sent out Commissions of Array to call those to him which by the Ancient Laws of England were bound to serve him in the Wars Upon this occasion there passed divers Declarations between the King and Parliament concerning the Legality of this Array which are too long to tell you at this time B. Nor do I desire to hear any Mooting about this Question for I think that general Law of Salus Populi and the Right of defending himself against those that had taken from him the Sovereign Power are sufficient to make legal whatsoever he should do in order to the recovery of his Kingdom or to the punishing of the Rebels A. In the mean time the Parliament raised an Army and made the Earl of Essex General thereof by which Act they declared what they meant formerly when they petition'd the King for a Guard to be commanded by the said Earl of Essex and now the King sends out his Proclamations forbidding obedience to the Orders of the Parliament concerning the Militia and the Parliament send out Orders against the Execution of the Commissions of Array Hitherto though it were a War before yet there was no Blood shed they shot at one another nothing but paper B. I understand now how the Parliament destroyed the Peace of the Kingdom and how easily by the help of seditious Presbyterian Ministers and of Ambitious Ignorant Orators they reduced this Government into Anarchy but I believe it will be a harder Task for them to bring in Peace again and settle the Government either in themselves or any other Governor or form of Government For granting that they obtained the Victory in this War they must be beholding for it to the Valor good Conduct or Felicity of those to whom they give the Command of their Armies especially to the General whose good success will without doubt draw with it the Love and Admiration of the Soldiers so that it will be in his power either to take the Government upon himself or to place it where himself thinks good In which case if he take it not to himself he will be thought a Fool and if he do he shall be sure to have the envy of his subordinate Commanders who look for a share either in the present Government or in the Succession to it for they will say has he obtain'd this power by his own without our Danger Valor and Counsel and must we be his Slaves whom we have thus raised Or is not there as much Justice on our side against him as was on his side against the King A They will and did in so much that the reason why
there no particular instance of action or words out of which they argued that endeavour of his to subvert the fundamental Laws of Parliament whereof they accused him A Yes they said he gave the King counsel to reduce the Parliament to their Duty by the Irish Army which not long before my Lord of Strafford himself had caused to be Levied there for the King's Service but it was never proved against him that he advised the King to use it against the Parliament B. What are those Laws that are called fundamental for I understand not how one Law can be more fundamental than another except only that Law of Nature that binds us all to obey him whosoever he be whom lawfully and for our own safety we have promised to obey nor any other fundamental Law to a King but Salus Populi the safety and well-being of his People A. This Parliament in the use of their words when they accused any man never regarded the signification of them but the weight they had to aggravate their accusation to the ignorant multitude which think all faults hainous that are express'd in hainous terms if they hate the Person accus'd as they did this man not only for being of the King's Party but also for deserting the Parliaments Party as an Apostate B. I pray you tell me also what they meant by Arbitrary Government which they seemed so much to hate Is there any Governour of a People in the World that is forced to govern them or forced to make this and that Law whether he will or no I think not or if any be he that forces him does certainly make Laws and govern arbitrarily A. That 's true and the true meaning of the Parliament was that not the King but they themselves should have the Arbitrary Government not only of England but of Ireland and as it appeared by the event of Scotland also B. How the King came by the Government of Scotland and Ireland by descent from his Ancestors every body can tell but if the King of England and his Heirs should chance which God forbid to fail I cannot imagine what Title the Parliament of England can acquire thereby to either of those Nations A. Yes they 'l say they had been conquer'd anciently by the English Subjects Money B. Like enough and suitable to the rest of their impudence A. Impudence in Democratical Assemblies does almost all that 's done 't is the Goddess of Rhetorick and carries proof with it for what ordinary man will not from so great boldness of affirmation conclude there is great probability in the thing affirmed Upon this Accusation he was brought to his Tryal in Westminster-Hall before the House of Lords and found guilty and presently after declared Traitor by a Bill of Attainder that is by Act of Parliament B. It is a strange thing that the Lords should be induced upon so light grounds to give a Sentence or give their Assent to a Bill so prejudicial to themselves and their Posterity A. 'T was not well done and yet as it seems not ignorantly for there is a Clause in the Bill that it should not be taken hereafter for an example that is for a prejudice in the like Case hereafter B. That 's worse than the Bill it self and is a plain Confession that their Sentence was unjust for what harm is there in the Examples of just Sentences Besides if hereafter the like Case should happen the Sentence is not at all made weaker by such a Provision A. Indeed I believe that the Lords most of them were not of themselves willing to condemn him of Treason they were awed to it by the clamor of Common People that came to Westminster crying out Justice Justice against the Earl of Strafford the which were caused to flock thither by some of the House of Commons that were well assur'd after the triumphant welcome of Prin Burton and Bastwick to put the People into tumult upon any occasion they desir'd They were awed unto it partly also by the House of Commons it self which if it desir'd to undo a Lord had no more to do but to vote him a Delinquent B. A Delinquent what 's that A Sinner is 't not Did they mean to undo all Sinners A. By Delinquent they meant only a Man to whom they would do all the hurt they could but the Lords did not yet I think suspect they meant to cashiere their whole House B. It 's a strange thing the whole House of Lords should not perceive that the ruin of the King's Power and the weakening of it was the ruin or weakening of themselves for they could not think it likely that the People ever meant to take the Sovereignty from the King to give it to them who were few in number and less in power than so many Commoners because less beloved by the People A. But it seems not so strange to me for the Lords for their personal abilities as they were no less so also they were no more skilful in the Publick Affairs than the Knights and Burgesses for there is no reason to think that if one that is to day a Knight of the Shire in the Lower House be to morrow made a Lord and a Member of the Higher House is therefore wiser than he was before They are all of both Houses prudent and able Men as any in the Land in the business of their private Estates which require nothing but diligence and natural Wit to govern them but for the Government of a Common-wealth neither wit nor prudence nor diligence is enough without infallible Rules and the true Science of Equity and Justice B. If this be true it is impossible any Common-wealth in the World whether Monarchy Aristocratie or Democratie should continue long without change or Sedition tending to change either of the Government or of the Governors A. 'T is true nor have any the greatest Common-wealths in the World been long free from Sedition The Greeks had for a while their petty Kings and then by Sedition came to be petty Common-wealths and then growing to be greater Common-wealths by Sedition again became Monarchies and all for want of Rules of Justice for the Common People to take notice of which if the People had known in the beginning of every of these Seditions the Ambitious Persons could never had the hope to disturb their Government after it had been once setled for Ambition can do little without hands and few hands it would have if the Common People were as diligently instructed in the true Principles of their Duty as they are terrified and amazed by Preachers with fruitless and dangerous Doctrines concerning the Nature of Man's Will and many other Philosophical Points that tend not at all to the salvation of the Soul in the World to come nor to their ease in this life but only to the direction towards the Clergy of that Duty which they ought to perform to the King B. For ought I see all the States of
They sate down in November and now it was May in this space of time which is but half a year they won from the King the adherence which was due to him from his People they drave his faithfulest Servants from him beheaded the Earl of Strafford imprison'd the Arch-bishop of Canterbury obtain'd a Triennial Parliament after their own Dissolution and a continuance of their own sitting as long as they listed which last amounted to a total Extinction of the King 's Right in case that such a Grant were valid which I think it is not unless the Sovereignty it self be in plain terms renounced which it was not But what Money by way of Subsidy or otherwise did they grant the King in recompence of all these his large Concessions A. None at all but often promised they would make him the most glorious King that ever was in England which were words that passed well enough for well meaning with the Common People B. But the Parliament was contented now for I cannot imagine what they should desire more from the King than he had now granted them A. Yes they desir'd the whole and absolute Sovereignty and to change the Monarchical Government into an Oligarchie that is to say to make the Parliament consisting of a few Lords and about 400 Commoners absolute in the Sovereignty for the present and shortly after to lay the House of Lords aside for this was the Design of the Presbyterian Ministers who taking themselves to be by Divine Right the only lawful Governors of the Church endeavoured to bring the same form of Government into the Civil State And as the Spiritual Laws were to be made by their Synods so the Civil Laws should be made by the House of Commons who as they thought would no less be ruled by them afterwards than they formerly had been wherein they were deceived and found themselves out-gone by their own Disciples though not in Malice yet in Wit B. What followed after this A. In August following the King supposing he had now sufficiently obliged the Parliament to proceed no farther against him took a Journey into Scotland to satisfie his Subjects there as he had done here intending perhaps so to gain their good Wills that in case the Parliament here should Levy Arms against him they should not be aided by the Scots wherein he also was deceiv'd for though they seemed satisfied with what he did whereof one thing was his giving way to the abolition of Episcopacy yet afterwards they made a League with the Parliament and for Money when the King began to have the better of the Parliament invaded England in the Parliaments quarrel but this was a year or two after B. Before you go any farther I desire to know the Ground and Original of that Right which either the House of Lords or House of Commons or both together now pretend to A. It is a Question of things so long past that they are now forgotten Nor have we any thing to conjecture by but the Records of our own Nation and some small and obscure fragments of Roman Histories And for the Records seeing they are of things done only sometimes justly sometimes unjustly you can never by them know what Right they had but only what Right they pretended B. Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Ancient Authors that speak of the forms of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancestors the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Argument of Right but only Examples of Fact which by the Ambition of potent Subjects have been oftner unjust than otherwise And for those Saxons or Angles that in Ancient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of divers petty German Lords and States such as was the Grecian Army in the Trojan War without other obligation than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness Nor were those Lords for the most part the Sovereigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the Forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity when they had conquered any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof that the rest should have greater priviledges than the Common People and Soldiers amongst which priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Councel with him that hath the Sovereignty in matter of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Sovereign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the King's Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those Honours and Places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of discreet and wise Men of the Kingdom and hear their Counsel and make them Judges of all Causes that during their sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever the power at his pleasure to dissolve them The Normans also that descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this priviledge of the Lords to be of the King 's Great Councel and when they were assembled to be the Highest of the King's Courts of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only Name of Baron a Name receiv'd from the Ancient Gaules amongst whom that Name signified the King's Man or rather one of his Great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Counsel when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's Great Councel A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Councel though they were not Lords but that is nothing to the House of Commons The Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of the Reign of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the misbehaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time
of Henry the third the Lords were descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow-Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France but after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue failed Titulary only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being no longer bound to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Councel And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased but I do not find they were part of the King's Councel at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other but I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Councel about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws To choose his own Privy-Councellors To raise Money and Soldiers To defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom To make Captains in his Army To make Governours of his Castles whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8 th adjourned till the 20 th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most seditious of both Houses and which had design'd the change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up any other Government in its place and consequently left it to the chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got together a great Party with an intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle in October the 20 th where the King's Officers of the Government of that Countrey made their Residence and had effected it had it not been discovered the night before The manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole Story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect and provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England for was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in general the Irish Nation did hate the name of Subjection to England Or would longer be quiet than they feared an Army out of England to chastise them What better time then could they take for their Rebellion than this wherein they were encouraged not only by our weakness caused by this division between the King and his Parliament but also by the Example of the Presbyterians both of the Scotch and English Nation But what did the Parliament do upon this occasion in the King's absence A. Nothing but consider what use they might make of it to their own ends partly by imputing it to the King 's evil Counsellors and partly by occasion thereof to demand of the King the power of pressing and ordering of Soldiers which power whosoever has has also without doubt the whole Sovereignty B. When came the King back A. He came back the 25 th of November and was welcomed with the Acclamations of the Common People as much as if he had been the most beloved of all the Kings that were before him but found not a Reception by the Parliament answerable to it They presently began to pick new quarrels against him out of every thing he said to them December the second the King called together both Houses of Parliament and then did only recommend unto them the raising of Succors for Ireland B. What quarrel could they pick out of that A. None but in order thereto as they may pretend they had a Bill in agitation to assert the Power of Levying and Pressing Soldiers to the two Houses of the Lords and Commons which was as much as to take from the King the Power of the Militia which is in effect the whole Sovereign Power for he that hath the power of Levying and Commanding of the Soldiers has all other Rights of Sovereignty which he shall please to claim The King hearing of it called the Houses of Parliament together again on December the 14 th and then pressed again the business of Ireland as there was need for all this while the Irish were murdering of the English in Ireland and strengthening themselves against the Forces they expected to come out of England and withal told them he took notice of the Bill in agitation for pressing of Soldiers and that he was contented it should pass with a Salvo Jure both for him and them because the present time was unseasonable to dispute it in B. What was there unreasonable in this A. Nothing What 's unreasonable is one question what they quarrel'd at is another They quarrel'd at this That his Majesty took notice of the Bill while it was in debate in the House of Lords before it was presented to him in the course of Parliament and also that he shewed himself displeas'd with those that propounded the said Bill both which they declared to be against the Priviledges of Parliament and petitioned the King to give them reparation against those by whose evil Counsel he was induced to it that they might receive condign punishment B. This was cruel proceeding Do not the Kings of England use to sit in the Lords House when they please And was not this Bill in debate then in the House of Lords It is a strange thing that a Man should be lawfully in the company of Men where he must needs hear and see what they say and do and yet must not take notice of it so much as to the same company for though the King was not present at the Debate it self yet it was lawful for any of the Lords to make him acquainted with it Any one of the House of Commons though not present at a Proposition or Debate in
they require first That the King be brought to Justice 2. That the Prince and Duke of York be summoned to appear at a day appointed and proceeded with according as they should give satisfaction 3. That the Parliament settle the Peace and future Government and set a reasonable period to their own sitting and make certain future Parliaments Annual or Biennial 4. That a competent number of the King 's Chief Instruments be executed And this to be done both by the House of Commons and by a general Agreement of the People testified by their Subscriptions Nor did they stay for an Answer but presently set a Guard of Soldiers at the Parliament-house-door and other Soldiers in Westminster-Hall suffering none to go into the House but such as would serve their turns All others were frighted away or made Prisoners and some upon divers quarrels suspended Above 90 of them because they had refused to vote against the Scots and others because they had voted against the Vote of Non-Addresses and the rest were an House for Cromwel The Fanaticks also in the City being countenanced by the Army pack a new Common Councel whereof any forty was to be above the Major and their first work was to frame a Petition for Justice against the King which Tichborne the Major involving the City in the Regicide delivered to the Parliament At the same time with the like violence they took the King from Newport in the Isle of Wight to Hurst Castle till things were ready for his Trial. The Parliament in the mean time to avoid perjury by an Ordinance declared void the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance and presently after made another to bring the King to his Trial. B. This is a piece of Law that I understood not before that when many Men swear singly they may when they are assembled if they please absolve themselves A. The Ordinance being drawn up was brought into the House where after three several Readings it was voted That the Lords and Commons of England assembled in Parliament do declare That by the fundamental Laws of the Realm it is Treason in the King of England to Levy War against the Parliament And this Vote was sent up to the Lords and they denying their consent the Commons in anger made another Vote That all Members of Committees should proceed and act in any Ordinance whether the Lords concurred or no and that the People under God are the original of all just Power and that the House of Commons have the Supream Power of the Nation and that whatsoever the House of Commons enacteth is Law All this passed nemine contradicente B. These Propositions fight not only against a King of England but against all the Kings of the World It were good they thought on 't but yet I believe under God the original of all Laws was in the People A. But the People for them and their Heirs by consent and Oaths have long ago put the Supream Power of the Nation into the hands of their Kings for them and their Heirs and consequently into the hands of this King their known and lawful Heir B. But does not the Parliament represent the People A. Yes to some purposes as to put up Petitions to the King when they have leave and are grieved but not to make a Grievance of the King's Power Besides the Parliament never represents the People but when the King calls them nor is it to be imagin'd that he calls a Parliament to depose himself Put the Case every County and Burrough should have given this Parliament for a Benevolence a Sum of Money and that every County meeting in their County-Court or elsewhere and every Burrough in their Town-Hall should have chosen certain men to carry their several Sums respectively to the Parliament Had not these men represented the whole Nation B. Yes no doubt A. Do you think the Parliament would have thought it reasonable to be called to account by this Representative B. No sure and yet I must confess the Case is the same A. This Ordinance contained first a Summary of the Charge against the King in substance this That not content with the Encroachments of his Predecessors upon the freedom of the People he had designed to set up a Tyrannical Government and to that end had raised and maintained in the Land a Civil War against the Parliament whereby the Country hath been miserably wasted the publick Treasure exhausted thousands of people murdered and infinite other mischiefs committed Secondly A Constitution passed of a High Court of Justice that is of a certain number of Commissioners of whom any 20 had Power to try the King and to proceed to Sentence according to the merit of the Cause and see it speedily executed The Commissioners met on Saturday Jan. 20 th in Westminster-Hall and the King was brought before them where sitting in a Chair he heard the Charge read but denied to plead to it either Guilty or Not Guilty till he should know by what Lawful Authority he was brought thither The President told him That the Parliament affirmed their own Authority and the King persevered in his refusal to plead though many words passed between him and the President yet this was the substance of it all On Monday January 22 the Court met again and the Solicitor moved that if the King persisted in denying the Authority of the Court the Charge might be taken pro confesso but the King still denied their Authority They met again January 23 and then the Solicitor moved the Court for Judgment whereupon the King was requir'd to give his final Answer which was again a denial of their Authority Lastly They met again January 27 where the King desir'd to be heard before the Lords and Commons in the Painted Chamber and promising after that to abide the Judgment of the Court The Commissioners retir'd for half an hour to consider of it and then returning caused the King to be brought again to the Bar and told him that what he proposed was but another denial of the Courts Jurisdiction and that if he had no more to say they would proceed Then the King answering that he had no more to say the President began a long Speech in Justification of the Parliaments Proceedings producing the Examples of many Kings killed or deposed by wicked Parliaments Ancient and Modern in England Scotland and other parts of the World All which he endeavoured to justifie from this only Principle That the People have the Supream Power and the Parliament is the People This Speech ended the Sentence of death was read and the same upon Tuesday after January 30 executed at the Gate of his own Palace of White-hall He that can delight in reading how villainously he was used by the Soldiers between the Sentence and Execution may go to the Chronicle it self in which he shall see what Courage Patience Wisdom and Goodness was in this Prince whom in their Charge the Members of that wicked Parliament
Christendome will be subject to these fits of Rebellion as long as the World lasteth A. Like enough and yet the fault as I have said may be easily mended by mending the Universities B. How long had the Parliament now sitten A. It began November the third 1640. My Lord of Strafford was impeached of Treason before the Lords November the 12 th sent to the Tower November the 22 d his Tryal began March the 22 d and ended April the 13 th After his Tryal he was voted guilty of High Treason in the House of Commons and after that in the House of Lords May the 6 th and on the 12 th of May beheaded B. Great Expedition but could not the King for all that have saved him by a Pardon A. The King had heard all that passed at his Tryal and had declared he was unsatisfied concerning the Justice of their Sentence and I think notwithstanding the danger of his own Person from the fury of the People and that he was counsel'd to give way to his Execution not only by such as he most relied on but also by the Earl of Strafford himself he would have pardoned him if that could have preserved him against the Tumult raised and countenanced by the Parliament it self for the terrifying of those they thought might favour him and yet the King himself did not stick to confess afterwards that he had done amiss in that he did not rescue him B. 'T was an Argument of good Disposition in the King but I never read that Augustus Caesar acknowledged that he had done a fault in abandoning Cicero to the fury of his Enemy Antonius Perhaps because Cicero having been of the contrary Faction to his Father had done Augustus no service at all out of favour to him but only out of enmity to Antonius and out of love to the Senate that is indeed out of love to himself that swayed the Senate as it is very likely the Earl of Strafford came over to the King's Party for his own ends having been so much against the King in former Parliaments A. We cannot safely judge of mens Intentions but I have observed often that such as seek preferment by their stubbornness have miss'd of their aim and on the other side that those Princes that with preferment are forced to buy the obedience of their Subjects are already or must be soon after in a very weak condition for in a Market where Honour and Power is to be bought with stubbornness there will be a great many as able to buy as my Lord Strafford was B. You have read that when Hercules fighting with the Hydra had cut off any one of his many heads there still arose two other heads in its place and yet at last he cut them off all A. The Story is told false for Hercules at first did not cut off those heads but bought them off and afterwards when he saw it did him no good then he cut them off and got the Victory B. What did they next A. After the first Impeachment of the Earl of Strafford the House of Commons upon December the 18 th accused the Arch-bishop of Canterbury also of High Treason that is of Design to introduce Arbitrary Government c. for which he was February the 18 th sent to the Tower but his Trial and Execution were deferr'd a long time till January the 10 th 1643. for the Entertainment of the Scots that were come into England to aid the Parliament B. Why did the Scots think there was so much danger in the Arch-bishop of Canterbury He was not a Man of War nor a Man able to bring an Army into the Field but he was perhaps a very great Politician A. That did not appear by any remarkable event of his Counsels I never heard but he was a very honest man for his Morals and a very zealous promoter of the Church-Government by Bishops and that desired to have the Service of God performed and the House of God adorned as suitably as was possible to the Honour we ought to do to the Divine Majesty But to bring as he did into the State his former Controversies I mean his squablings in the University about Free-will and his standing upon Punctilio's concerning the Service-Book and its Rubricks was not in my opinion an Argument of his sufficiency in Affairs of State About the same time they passed an Act which the King consented to for a Triennial Parliament wherein was Enacted That after the present Parliament there should be a Parliament called by the King within the space of three years and so from three years to three years to meet at Westminster upon a certain day named in the Act. B. But what if the King did not call it finding it perhaps inconvenient or hurtful to the safety or peace of his People which God hath put into his charge For I do not well comprehend how any Sovereign can well keep a People in order when his Hands are tied or when he hath any other obligation upon him than the benefit of those he governs and at this time for any thing you have told me they acknowledged the King for their Sovereign A. I know not but such was the Act. And it was farther Enacted That if the King did it not by his own Command then the Lord Chancellor or the Lord Keeper for the time being should send out the Writs of Summons and if the Chancellor refused then the Sheriffs of the several Counties should of themselves in their next County-Courts before the day set down for the Parliaments meeting proceed to the Election of the Members for the said Parliament B. But what if the Sheriffs refus'd A. I think they were to be sworn to it but for that and other particulars I refer you to the Act. B. To whom should they be sworn when there is no Parliament A. No doubt but to the King whether there be a Parliament sitting or no. B. Then the King may release them of their Oath A. Besides they obtained of the King the putting down the Star-Chamber and the High-Commission-Courts B. Besides if the King upon the refusal should fall upon them in anger who shall the Parliament not sitting protect either the Chancellor or the Sheriffs in their disobedience A. I pray you do not ask me any reason of such things I understand no better than you I tell you only an Act passed to that purpose and was signed by the King in the middle of February a little before the Arch-bishop was sent to the Tower Besides this Bill the two Houses of Parliament agreed upon another wherein it was Enacted That the present Parliament should continue till both the Houses did consent to the Dissolution of it which Bill also the King signed the same day he signed the Warrant for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford B. What a great Progress made the Parliament towards the ends of the most seditious Members of both Houses in so little time
when the Parliament was ended and the favour shewed to Papists by Secretary Windebank and others B. All this will go current with common People for misgovernment and for faults of the King 's though some of them were misfortunes and both the misfortunes and the misgovernment if any were were the faults of the Parliament who by denying to give him Money did both frustrate his Attempts abroad and put him upon those extraordinary ways which they call Illegal of raising Money at home A. You see what a heap of evils they have raised to make a shew of ill government to the People which they second with an enumeration of the many Services they have done the King in overcoming a great many of them though not all and in divers other things and say that though they had contracted a Debt to the Scots of 2200 l. and granted six Subsidies and a Bill of Pole-Money worth six Subsidies more yet that God had so blessed the endeavours of this Parliament that the Kingdom was a gainer by it and then follows the Catalogue of those good things they had done for the King and Kingdom For the Kingdom they had done they said these things They had abolished Ship-Money They had taken away Coat and Conduct-Money and other Military Charges which they said amounted to little less than the Ship-Money That they suppress'd all Monopolies which they reckoned above a Million yearly saved by the Subject That they had quelled living Grievances meaning evil Counsellors and Actors by the death of my Lord of Strafford by the flight of the Chancellor Finch and of Secretary Windebank by the Imprisonment of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury and of Judge Bartlet and the Impeachment of other Bishops and Judges That they had pass'd a Bill for a Triennial Parliament and another for the Continuance of the present Parliament till they should think fit to dissolve themselves B. That is to say for ever if they be suffered But the sum of all these things which they had done for the Kingdom is that they had left it without Government without Strength without Money without Law and without good Councel A. They reckoned also putting down of the High-Commission and the abating of the power of the Council-Table and of the Bishops and their Courts The taking away of unnecessary Ceremonies in Religion Removing of Ministers from their Livings that were not of their Faction and putting in such as were B. All this was but their own and not the Kingdoms Business A. The good they had done the King was first they said The giving of 25000 l. a month for the relief of the Northern Counties B. What need of relief had the Northern more than the rest of the Counties of England A Yes in the Northern Counties were quartered the Scotch Army which the Parliament called in to oppose the King and consequently their Quarter was to be discharged B. True but by the Parliament that call'd them in A. But they say no and that this Money was given to the King because he is bound to protect his Subjects B. He is no farther bound to that than they to give him Money wherewithal to do it This is very great impudence to raise an Army against the King and with that Army to oppress their Fellow-Subjects and then require that the King should relieve them that is to say be at the charge of paying the Army that was raised to fight against him A. Nay farther They put to the King's Account the 300000 l. given to the Scots without which they would not have invaded England besides many other things that I now remember not B. I did not think there had been so great impudence and villany in mankind A. You have not observ'd the World long enough to see all that 's ill Such was their Remonstrance as I have told you With it they sent a Petition containing three Points 1. That his Majesty would deprive the Bishops of their Votes in Parliament and remove such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as they had brought in 2. That he would remove from his Council all such as should promote the Peoples Grievances and employ in his Great and Publick Affairs such as the Parliament should confide in 3. That he would not give away the Lands Escheated to the Crown by the Rebellion in Ireland B. This last Point methinks was not wisely put in at this time it should have been reserv'd till they had subdued the Rebels against whom there were yet no Forces sent over 'T is like selling the Lyons Skin before they had kill'd him But what answer was made to the other two Propositions A. What answer should be made but a Denial About the same time the King himself exhibited Articles against six Persons of the Parliament five whereof were of the House of Commons and one of the House of Lords accusing them of High Treason and upon the 4 th of January went himself to the House of Commons to demand those five of them but private notice having been given by some Treacherous Person about the King they had absented themselves and by that means frustrated his Majesties Intentions and after he was gone the House making a hainous matter of it and a high breach of their Priviledges adjourned themselves into London there to sit as a General Committee pretending they were not safe at Westminster for the King when he went to the House to demand those Persons had somewhat more attendance with him but not otherwise armed than his Servants used to be than he ordinarily had and would not be pacified though the King did afterward wave the prosecution of those persons unless he would also discover to them those that gave him Counsel to go in that manner to the Parliament House to the end they might receive condign punishment which was the word they used in stead of cruelty B. This was a harsh demand Was it not enough that the King should forbear his Enemies but also that he must betray his Friends If they thus tyrannize over the King before they have gotten the Sovereign Power into their hands how will they tyrannize over their Fellow-Subjects when they have gotten it A. So as they did B. How long staid that Committee in London A. Not above two or three days and then were brought from London to the Parliament House by Water in great triumph guarded with a tumultuous number of Armed Men there to sit in security in despite of the King and make traiterous Acts against him such and as many as they listed and under favour of these tumults to frighten away from the House of Peers all such as were not of their own Faction For at this time the Rabble was so insolent that scarce any of the Bishops durst go to the House for fear of violence upon their persons in so much as twelve of them excused themselves of coming thither and by way of Petition to the King remonstrated That they were
for the securing them from all Dangers or Jealousies of any his Majesty will be content to put into all the places both Forts and Militia in the several Counties such persons as both the Houses of Parliament shall either approve or recommend unto him so that they declare before unto his Majesty the Names of the persons whom they approve or recommend unless such persons shall be named against whom he shall have just and unquestionable exceptions B. What power for what time and to whom did the Parliament grant concerning the Militia A. The same power which the King had before planted in his Lieutenants and Deputy-Lieutenants in the several Counties and without other limitation of time but their own pleasure B. Who were the men that had this power A. There is a Catalogue of them printed They are very many and most of them Lords nor is it necessary to have them named for to name them is in my opinion to brand them with the mark of Disloyalty or of Folly When they had made a Catalogue of them they sent it to the King with a new Petition for the Militia Also presently after they sent a Message to his Majesty praying him to leave the Prince at Hampton Court but the King granted neither B. Howsoever it was well done of them to get Hostages if they could of the King before he went from them A. In the mean time to raise Money for the reducing of Ireland the Parliament invited men to bring in Money by way of Adventure according to these Propositions 1. That two millions and five hundred thousand Acres of Land in Ireland should be assigned to the Adventurers in this proportion  l.  For an Adventure of 200 1000 Acres in Vlster 300 1000 Acres in Conaught 450 1000 Acres in Munster 600 1000 Acres in Lemster All according to English measure and consisting of Meadow Arable and profitable Pasture Bogs Woods and barren Mountains being cast in over and above 2. A Revenue was reserved to the Crown from 1 d. to 3 d. on every Acre 3. That Commissions should be sent by the Parliament to erect Mannors settle Wasts and Commons maintain preaching Ministers to create Corporations and to regulate Plantations The rest of the Propositions concern only the times and manner of payment of the Sums subscribed by the Adventurers And to these Propositions his Majesty assented but to the Petition of the Militia his Majesty denied his Assent B. If he had not I should have thought it a great wonder What did the Parliament after this A. They sent him another Petition which was presented to him when he was at Theobalds in his way to York wherein they tell him plainly That unless he be pleased to assure them by those Messengers then sent that he would speedily apply his Royal Assent to the satisfaction of their former desires they shall be enforced for the safety of his Majesty and his Kingdoms to dispose of the Militia by the Authority of both Houses c. They petition his Majesty also to let the Prince stay at St. James's or some other of his Majesties Houses near London They tell him also that the power of raising ordering and disposing of the Militia cannot be granted to any Corporation without the Authority and Consent of Parliament and that those parts of the Kingdom which have put themselves into a posture of defence have done nothing therein but by direction of both Houses and what is justifiable by the Laws of this Kingdom B. What answer made the King to this A. It was a putting of themselves into Arms and under Officers such as the Parliament should approve of 4. They Voted That his Majesty should be again desired that the Prince might continue about London Lastly They Voted a Declaration to be sent to his Majesty by both the Houses wherein they accuse his Majesty of a Design of altering Religion though not directly him but them that counsel'd him whom they also accused of being the Inviters and Fomenters of the Scotch War and Framers of the Rebellion in Ireland and upbraid the King again for accusing the Lord Kimbolton and the five Members and of being privy to the purpose of bringing up his Army which was raised against the Scots to be employed against the Parliament To which his Majesty sent his Answer from Newmarket Whereupon it was resolved by both Houses that in this Case of extream Danger and of his Majesties refusal the Ordinance agreed upon by both Houses for the Militia doth oblige the People by the fundamental Laws of this Kingdom and also that whosoever shall execute any power over the Militia by colour of any Commission of Lieutenancy without consent of both Houses of Parliament shall be accounted a Disturber of the peace of the Kingdom Whereupon his Majesty sent a Message to both Houses from Huntington requiring obedience to the Laws established and prohibiting all Subjects upon pretence of their Ordinance to execute any thing concerning the Militia which is not by those Laws warranted Upon this the Parliament vote a standing to their former Votes as also that when the Lords and Commons in Parliament which is the Supream Court of Judicature in the Kingdom shall declare what the Law of the Land is to have this not only question'd but contradicted is a high breach of the Priviledge of Parliament B. I thought that he that makes the Law ought to declare what the Law is for what is it else to make a Law but to declare what it is So that they have taken from the King not only the Militia but also the Legislative Power A. They have so but I make account that the Legislative Power and indeed all power possible is contained in the power of the Militia After this they seize such Money as was due to his Majesty upon the Bill of Tonnage and Poundage and upon the Bill of Subsidies that they might disable him every way they possibly could They sent him also many other contumelious Messages and Petitions after his coming to York amongst which one was That whereas the Lord Admiral by indisposition of Body could not command the Fleet in person he would be pleased to give Authority to the Earl of Warwick to supply his place when they knew the King had put Sir John Pennington in it before B. To what end did the King entertain so many Petitions Messages Declarations and Remonstrances and vouchsafe his Answers to them when he could not choose but clearly see they were resolv'd to take from him his Royal Power and consequently his Life For it could not stand with their safety to let either him or his Issue live after they had done him so great Injuries A. Besides this the Parliament had at the same time a Committee residing at York to spy what his Majesty did and to inform the Parliament thereof and also to hinder the King from gaining the People of that County to his Party So that when his Majesty
keenly as they who had laid down their Arms in Cornwal These were the most important Fights in the Year 1644. and the King was yet as both himself and others thought in as good condition as the Parliament which despair'd of Victory by the Commanders they then used Therefore they voted a new modeling of the Army suspecting the Earl of Essex though I think wrongfully to be too much a Royalist for not having done so much as they looked for in this second Battle at Newbury The Earls of Essex and Manchester perceiving what they went about voluntarily laid down their Commissions and the House of Commons made an Ordinance That no Member of either House should enjoy any Office or Command Military or Civil with which oblique blow they shook off those that had hitherto served them too well and yet out of this Ordinance they excepted Oliver Cromwel in whose Conduct and Valor they had very great confidence which they would not have done if they had known him as well then as they did afterwards and made him Lieutenant-General to Sir Thomas Fairfax their new made General In the Commission to the Earl of Essex there was a Clause for preservation of his Majesties Person which in this new Commission was left out though the Parliament as well as the General were as yet Presbyterian B. It seems the Presbyterians also in order to their ends would fain have had the King murdered A. For my part I doubt it not For a Rightful King living an usurping Power can never be sufficiently secur'd In this same Year the Parliament put to death Sir John Hotham and his Son for tampering with the Earl of New-Castle about the Rendition of Hull and Sir Alexander Carew for endeavouring to deliver up Plimouth where he was Governour for the Parliament and the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury for nothing but to please the Scots For the general Article of going about to subvert the fundamental Laws of the Land was no Accusation but only foul words They then also voted down the Book of Common-Prayer and ordered the use of a Directory which had been newly composed by an Assembly of Presbyterian Ministers They were also then with much ado prevailed with for a Treaty with the King at Vxbridge where they remitted nothing of their former Demands The King had also at this time a Parliament at Oxford consisting of such discontented Members as had left the Houses at Westminster but few of them had changed their old Principles and therefore that Parliament was not much worth Nay rather because they endeavour'd nothing but Messages and Treaties that is to say defeating of the Soldiers hope of benefit by the War they were thought by most men to do the King more hurt than good The Year 1645. was to the King very unfortunate for by the loss of one great Battle he lost all he had formerly gotten and at length his life The new model'd Army after Consultation whether they should lay Siege to Oxford or march Westward to the relief of Taunton then besieged by the Lord Goring and defended by Blake famous afterward for his Actions at Sea resolved for Taunton leaving Cromwel to attend the motions of the King though not strong enough to hinder him The King upon this advantage drew his Forces and Artillery out of Oxford This made the Parliament to call back their General Fairfax and order him to besiege Oxford The King in the mean time relieved Chester which was besieged by Sir William Brereton and coming back took Leicester by force a Place of great Importance and well provided of Artillery and Provision Upon this Success it was generally thought that the King's Party was the stronger The King himself thought so and the Parliament in a manner confess'd the same by commanding Fairfax to rise from the Siege and endeavour to give the King battle for the Successes of the King and the Divisions and Treacheries growing now amongst themselves had driven them to rely upon the fortune of one day in which at Naseby the Kings Army was utterly overthrown and no hope left him to raise another Therefore after the Battle he went up and down doing the Parliament here and there some shrewd turns but never much encreasing his number Fairfax in the mean time first recovered Leicester and then marching into the West subdued it all except only a few Places forcing with much ado my Lord Hopton upon Honourable Conditions to disband his Army and with the Prince of Wales to pass over to Scilly whence not long after they went to Paris In April 1646. General Fairfax began to march back to Oxford In the mean time Rainsborough who besieged Woodstock had it surrendered The King therefore who was now also returned to Oxford from whence Woodstock is but six Miles not doubting but that he should there by Fairfax be besieged and having no Army to relieve him resolved to get away disguis'd to the Scotch Army about Newark and thither he came the fourth of May and the Scotch Army being upon remove homewards carried him with them to New-Castle whither he came May 13 th B. Why did the King trust himself with the Scots They were the first that rebell'd They were Presbyterians i. e. cruel besides they were indigent and consequently might be suspected would sell him to his Enemies for Money And lastly they were too weak to defend him or keep him in their Countrey A. What could he have done better for he had in the Winter before sent to the Parliament to get a Pass for the Duke of Richmond and others to bring them Propositions of Peace It was denied He sent again it was denied again Then he desir'd he might come to them in Person This also was denied He sent again and again to the same purpose but in stead of granting it they made an Ordinance That the Commanders of the Militia of London in case the King should attempt to come within the Line of Communication should raise what force they thought fit to suppress Tumults to apprehend such as came with him and to secure i. e. to imprison his Person from danger If the King had adventured to come and had been imprisoned What could the Parliament have done with him They had dethron'd him by their Votes and therefore could have no security whilst he liv'd though in prison It may be they would not have put him to death by a High Court of Justice publickly but secretly some other way B. He should have attempted to get beyond Sea A. That had been from Oxford very difficult Besides it was generally believ'd that the Scotch Army had promised him that not only his Majesty but also his Friends that should come with him should be in their Army safe not only for their Persons but also for their Honours and Consciences 'T is a pretty trick when the Army and the particular Soldiers of the Army are different things to make the Soldiers promise what the Army means not
the same Authority And this he saith upon this silly ground That nothing is a Command the performance whereof tendeth to our own benefit He might as well deny the Ten Commandments to be Commands because they have an advantagious promise annexed to them Do this and thou shalt live And Cursed is every one that continueth not in all the words of this Law to do them T. H. Of the Sacraments I said no more than that they are Signs or Commemorations He finds fault that I add not Seals Confirmations and that they confer grace First I would have asked him if a Seal be any thing else besides a Sign whereby to remember somewhat as that we have promised accepted acknowledged given undertaken somewhat Are not other Signs though without a Seal of force sufficient to convince me or oblige me A Writing obligatory or Release signed only with a mans name is as Obligatory as a Bond signed and sealed if it be sufficiently proved though peradventure it may require a longer Process to obtain a Sentence but his Lordship I think knew better than I do the force of Bonds and Bills yet I know this that in the Court of Heaven there is no such difference between saying signing and sealing as his Lordship seemeth here to pretend I am Baptized for a Commemoration that I have enrolled my self I take the Sacrament of the Lords Supper to Commemorate that Christ's Body was broken and his Blood shed for my redemption What is there more intimated concerning the nature of these Sacraments either in the Scripture or in the Book of Common-Prayer Have Bread and Wine and Water in their own Nature any other Quality than they had before the Consecration It is true that the Consecration gives these bodies a new Relation as being a giving and dedicating of them to God that is to say a making of them Holy not a changing of their Quality But as some silly young men returning from France affect a broken English to be thought perfect in the French language so his Lordship I think to seem a perfect understander of the unintelligible language of the Schoolmen pretends an ignorance of his Mother Tongue He talks here of Command and Counsel as if he were no English man nor knew any difference between their significations What English man when he commandeth says more than Do this yet he looks to be obeyed if obedience be due unto him But when he says Do this and thou shalt have such or such a Reward he encourages him or advises him or Bargains with him but Commands him not Oh the understanding of a Schoolman J. D. Sometimes he is for holy Orders and giveth to the Pastors of the Church the right of Ordination and Absolution and Infallibility too much for a particular Pastor or the Pastors of one particular Church It is manifest that the consecration of the chiefest Doctors in every Church and imposition of hands doth pertain to the Doctors of the same Church And it cannot be doubted of but the power of binding and loosing was given by Christ to the future Pastors after the same manner as to his present Apostles And our Saviour hath promised this infallibility in those things which are necessary to Salvation to his Apostles until the day of Judgment that is to say to the Apostles and Pastors to be Consecrated by the Apostles successively by the imposition of hands But at other times he casteth all this Meal down with his foot Christian Soveraigns are the supream Pastors and the only persons whom Christians now hear speak from God except such as God speaketh to in these dayes supernaturally What is now become of the promised infallibility And it is from the Civil Soveraign that all other Pastors derive their right of teaching preaching and all other functions pertaining to that Office and they are but his Ministers in the same manner as the Magistrates of Towns or Judges in Courts of Justice and Commanders of Armies What is now become of their Ordination Magistrates Judges and Generals need no precedent qualifications He maketh the Pastoral Authority of Soveraigns to be Jure divino of all other Pastors Jure civili He addeth neither is there any Judge of Heresie among Subjects but their own civil Soveraign Lastly the Church Excommunicateth no man but whom she Excommunicateth by the Authority of the Prince And the effect of Excommunication hath nothing in it neither of dammage in this World nor terror upon an Apostate if the Civil Power did persecute or not assist the Church And in the World to come leaves them in no worse estate than those who never believed The dammage rather redoundeth to the Church Neither is the Excommunication of a Christian Subject that obeyeth the Laws of his own Soveraign of any effect Where is now their power of binding and loosing T. H. Here his Lordship condemneth first my too much kindness to the Pastors of the Church as if I ascribed Infallibility to every particular Minister or at least to the Assembly of the Pastors of a particular Church But he mistakes me I never meant to flatter them so much I say only that the Ceremony of Consecration and Imposition of hands belongs to them and that also no otherwise than as given them by the Laws of the Common-wealth The Bishop Consecrates but the King both makes him Bishop and gives him his Authority The Head of the Church not only gives the power of Consecration Dedication and Benediction but may also exercise the Act himself if he please Solomon did it and the Book of Canons says That the King of England has all the Right that any good King of Israel had It might have added that any other King or soveraign Assembly had in their own Dominions I deny That any Pastor or any Assembly of Pastors in any particular Church or all the Churches on earth though united are Infallible Yet I say the Pastors of a Christian Church assembled are in all such points as are necessary to Salvation But about what points are necessary to Salvation he and I differ For I in the 43d chapter of my Leviathan have proved that this Article Jesus is the Christ is the unum necessarium the only Article necessary to Salvation to which his Lordship hath not offered any Objection And he it seems would have necessary to Salvation every Doctrine he himself thought so Doubtless in this Article Jesus is the Christ every Church is infallible for else it were no Church Then he says I overthrow this again by saying that Christian Soveraigns are the Supream Pastors that is Heads of their own Churches That they have their Authority Jure Divino That all other Pastors have it Jure Civili How came any Bishop to have Authority over me but by Letters Patents from the King I remember a Parliament wherein a Bishop who was both a good Preacher and a good Man was blamed for a Book he had a little before Published in maintenance