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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A23641	A defence of the answer made unto the nine questions or positions sent from New-England, against the reply thereto by that reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball, entituled, A tryall of the new church-way in New-England and in old wherin, beside a more full opening of sundry particulars concerning liturgies, power of the keys, matter of the visible church, &c., is more largely handled that controversie concerning the catholick, visible church : tending to cleare up the old-way of Christ in New-England churches / by Iohn Allin [and] Tho. Shepard ...	Allin, John, 1596-1671.; Shepard, Thomas, 1605-1649.	1648 (1648)	Wing A1036; ESTC R8238	175,377	216

till hee have conferred and shewed his formes to men more able which wee finde sometime to bee the Synod 4 After these times they added the commemoration of Saints to their Prayers and Letanies as appears from manifold instances whereof take but this one imputed to Chrysostome Sanctissimae Deiparae semper Virginis Mariae cum omnibus sanctis memoriam agentes nos ipsos omnem vitam nostram Christo Deo nostro commendamus Which Letanies at first being used more seldome at some times of the year afterwards grew into ordinary use to every end of which the people added Lord have mercy upon us and Exaudi Domine We beseech thee to hear us good Lord. 5 From commemoration of Saints being so near the brink they soon came on to invocation of them first in private prayers then in publick and that by degrees For first they called upon Christ to hear their intercessions for them Intercessionibus Sanctorum tuorum Salvator salva nos and thence they fell to direct and immediate invocation of them Maria Deo supplica ut animas nostras salvet 6 At last they became so superstitious in their Letanies or Liturgies that praying was magnified above all preaching and almost all preaching was changed into formall corrupt and blind praying and thus it was generally in the Churches till about the sixt Century as if need were might be shewed at large 7 Though other Churches were thus over-grown with Forms of Worship yet the Roman Bishops especially did multiply Forms and superstitious Rites excessively Rome being in Gods secret Providence left to become the very seat and throne of Antichrist The Bishops themselves also finding it exceeding hard to bring in the ●…ligion of Christ without conforming to the Pagan rites as Casaubon observes For it appears even in the time of Theodosius wherein Christianity was risen to a great head the Senate being sent unto by him to renounce their Pagan Religion and receive the law of Christ they returned answer that they would not but that they would observe the ancient law Pompilian to avoid the ruine of the Common-wealth which they feared might come by the change of Religion The Roman Bishops also for 400 years together could never obtain of the Senate nor multitudes of the Roman Idolaters to renounce their inveterate Idolatry and receive the Gospel Hence they conformed their Rites and Ceremonies to the Pagan and Idolatrous customes the better to allure them to Christ according to their carnalll policy We finde all the principal parts of the Masse to be borrowed from the Idolatrous Pagans and to have their originall from Numa Pompilius that Conjurer who lived 700 years before Christ to adorn and deck as the Bishops thought the Religion of Christ Jesus to the which with much ado at last the Romans were converted To which principall parts viz. Vestments Holy-water the Confiteor Organs Incense Offertory c. other deckings were added also as divers Letanies and the Kurie Elyson to be sung nine times invented by Gregory a Monk at first well-studied in the laws of Numa and Tullus Hostilius Damasus as Platina and Sabellius shew inriched it with Gloria Patri c. i. e. Glory be to the Father Son and Holy Ghost Sergius with an Agnus Dei to be sung three times Alexander and other Bishops added the Canon of the Masse others the Epistles and Gospels The Graduall and Collects were added by Gelasius anno 493. The Gloria in excelsis by Symmachus 508. At last came the Host in about 1062. Much more might be said All which when we consider we confess we are pusled to discern the difference between the sound part and the scab For if the principal formalities of the Masse out of which our Liturgy was taken as is confessed arose out of a politick push to conform the Christian to the Pagan Religion and the deckings of it from the itching humor of the Roman busie Bishops admirers of humane inventions and Ceremonies let the Reader then judge what sound parts are left beside the scab We do not speak this to condemn every thing for the matter of it that is in the Common-Prayer-book Yea we honor the affection and piety of the first Reformers and the godly then that were glad to hear Prayers in their own to●…e and according to the glimmering light of those times aymed at the winning of Papists to the true Religion by such a Form of Worship But now since experience hath taught it rather hardens them against the truth then draws them toward it when we see the pressing of it is rather a temptation to conform to Popery then otherwise we verily beleeve if they had lived in these times of further light they would have born witnesse against it as others have done Lastly though the originall had been good which yet is contrary we may answer in the words of Peter Martyr to such as did plead for a lawfull presence at Masse because the originall was good who answers thus In hisoe rebus non origo c. In these matters not the Originall but the Nature is to be considered for the brasen Serpent had its originall from God and was honored with miraculous works yet when abused Piis hominibus redditus est detestabilis it became most loathsome to godly men Reply It is no hard task to shew that our Service-book was reformed in most things according to the purest Liturgies which were in use in the Church long before the Masse was heard of in the world And if that could not be shewed yet forms of speech generally taken we speak not of this or that speciall word or phrase is no more defiled by Idolatry then the light air or place where Idolatry is committed c. Answ It is just cause of grief unto us that this reverend Author should thus use the Prelates plea for Surplice and other Ceremonies to justifie this corrupt Liturgy for these were before the Masse and many other Idols of the Papists and though a phrase or word be not polluted by their use of it yet a needless Ceremony and so a devised Form of Worship and a bundle of Ceremonious and corrupt Wor●…s must needs be polluted by the use of them better to use t●… Forms of Turks then Papists saith Cartw. supra Reply Fourthly put case the Minister in reading give offence give unlawfull honor to a thing abused to Idolatry and suffer himself to be sinfully limited in reading what is that to the faithfull This can be no ground that the people may not joyn c. Answ We doe not conclude that they doe sin but fearfull we are lest they may so do all things considered in this case as have been before propounded If indeed the case stood as formerly it hath done in England we would have been lesse scrupulous and doubtfull of the matter but if by the out-breaking of light after so long toleration of the book we see so many evill effects of

false Church We thinke it needlesse to recite more testimonies Aliquando honus dormitat Homerus A good memory may sometimes fall asleep and not see that which is sometimes most obvious and visible But what other arguments they have are or may bee common to others studious of Reformation as their arguments against ceremonies are common with Non-conformists and therefore if some of our grounds bee found in them it doth not follow they are ●…afts taken out of the same quiver and peculiar to them as you object Reply These reasons shall be common to all that plead for the purity of Gods Ordinances which were never taken to bee sound and true either by the Reformed Churches abroad or by the godly Brethren at home dead or living or yet by the most of the Brethren amongst whom they live and ●…old society or by any Minister and society holding the unity of the Spirit in the hand of peace th●…se 1400 years and upward unlesse within these few dayes and that by a few onely Answ Here is a great colour of Novelty and singularity objected to be in the grounds and reasons of the Letter used against conformity to the Liturgy but it is easie to conceive that the same common grounds of all Reformers may be justly carryed on against such further corruptions as they never ●…aw not attending their owne principles in such particulars as was said before of the first Reformers that purged out salt creame oyle c. not the crosse c. and so here it may fall out that as the Lord is pleased to let in more light in this or that particular corruption so upon common grounds it is rejected though yet but one or few apply those grounds to such a particular case Neither here was the number so few as is pretended when this Reply was drawn up or else at least it is much increased of late time since the Assembly and Parliament in England have so openly in their Directory witnessed against such stinted Formes and generally the Churches of Scotland renounced that Liturgy of yours as a piece of Popery Besides all the Orthodox Churches in New-England and Holland and many godly in England Reply As yet wee thinke most of them that have separated are not so farre gone as to condemne all our Assemblies as no Churches of Christ Answ By this you seeme to insinuate that notwithstanding our acknowledgement of your Churches and Ministery wee may justly bee accounted amongst those wee properly call Separatists but it is but your thought of most of them without ground contrary to their generall profession in their publique confessions and apologies And therefore we see no reason of it or that it toucheth us but passing these generalls let us come to the matter more particularly Reply Your judgement concerning the Position you deliver in three Propositions for so many they bee for substance in respect of the persons reading the Liturgie or the thing in selfe that is read as if any part of the Liturgie be read put case some few select prayers onely by an unable and ungodly Minister it is unlawfull say you for the people to joyne in that case But if unlawfull for the people to joyne when an ungodly Minister readeth some few select prayers it is either in respect of the Minister or the prayers themselves not of the Prayers themselves for they be select and choyce faultlesse in respect of matter and manner 〈◊〉 is taken for granted unlesse th●… distribution bee is no purpose if in respect of the Minister then it is not lawfull to joyne with such an one in any ordinance of God whatsoever In that you analyse our two Propositions into three we shall not contend but follow your method yet wee cannot but marvaile at the liberty that is taken in stating the first Proposition both leaving out and adding such things as will not stand with the termes in our Answer and indeed this is too frequent in divers places of this Reply which gives a great colour of strength unto the arguments but when they come to be scanned it will discover the impertinency of them For 1 Although the Answer distinguisheth of the Liturgie either of the whole or of some select prayers which may bee conceived to bee lesse offensive yet the application of this of select prayers is onely made in the second proposition of the Answer no way intended in the first Neither doth the Answer confesse those prayers as you say to bee choyce and faultlesse for matter and manner but which may bee conceived lesse offensive 2 Whereas the Proposition is of an unable and ungodly Minister such unlearned Idol-Priests that are countenanced and established by the Liturgie and can doe no more then read the same to the unspeakable hazard and ruine of a multitude of soules you carry along your arguments onely in the terme of an ungodly Minister which leaves out one chiefe ground of our proposition viz. unable To reduce therefore this proposition unto its true state which the answer puts it in which is thus If the question bee of joyning in prayer with and when that whole Liturgie is read or where that which is used viz. though not the whole is read by an unable and ungodly Minister wee see not how it can bee lawfull to joyne c. where that which is read by an unable and ungodly Minister cannot have reference to the select prayers but onely was put in to reach the whole case lest any should say may we not joyne therefore if they read not all as sometimes such doe not for haste to the Alehouse Beare-baitings c. And the case is so well known to our selves and others what the manner of such Priests is how farre they are from making any choyce of select prayers or having any skill indeed so to doe that if any bee more superstitious then others they would soonest choose them so that it was farre from our thoughts to impute it to them to read the select prayers onely The question being rightly stated the argument will halt very much For wee say it is unlawfull in both respects and the rather when jointly considered and therefore you should first have justified the whole Liturgy or so much as such Idol-Priests use to read to bee lawfull and also the standing and calling of those men before the argument can hold both which you have wholly left naked without proofe and argue onely about the lawfulnesse of joyning with an ungodly Minister in the Ordinances of God which will not reach this case If one should affirme it is unlawfull to goe to Mattens or Evensong when the whole is read or that which is read 〈◊〉 done by a popish Priest and you should answer then it is either because of the Prayers or the Priest Not the first for the prayers if select may bee good and faultlesse and not because of the Priest for then wee may never joyne with an ungodly Minister in the Ordinances of God

of those times as these wee speake of are for though the Priests Esay 56.10 were dumb dogs that cannot barke yet it seemes by the place to be meant actually rather then habitually through their slumbering or security there mentioned not telling the people of their sinnes nor warning them of judgements rather then of their totall inability Men of good parts and able gifts may be actually such dumb dogs as seldome preach or never to purpose and bee spiritually ignorant through much prophanenesse yet not totally deprived of common gifts It is most evident that the Pharisees were blinde yet taught the people and hence the Disciples were permitted to heare them but what is this to the question which is of unable as well as of ungodly Ministers Thirdly suppose some of the Priests and Levites were unable yet the Ministery of the Old Testament was limitted by God himselfe to the tribe of Levi and that by succession which is farre otherwise in the New Testament being left to the Churches election and therefore they had no power to reject them or withdraw from them when they had ministred the ordinances of God Fourthly suppose some of them were not called of God being not lineally descended of that tribe yet those things wherein the faithfull Christ and his Apostles and others did communicate with them were necessarily commanded of God viz. sacrifices offerings c. in the Temple which seale of God we see not stamped upon this Liturgy in question to make it currant And thus Peter Martyr answereth in the like case that though there were many pernicious doctrines taught by Scribes Pharisees and wicked Priests yet sacrificandi ritus c. the rites of sacrificing were not changed for the same oblations were offered which the Law commanded and therefore the Saints might use them having the word of God conjoyned with them Fifthly what you grant concerning Christ his warning his Disciples to take heed of the leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees no doubt hee did the like concerning the corruptions of the Priests in their administrations of Gods ordinances and wee doubt not but you will acknowledge that the Prophets and Apostles did or ought to abstaine from all actuall communion with those corruptions and the Lord Jesus out of question did abstaine which being so wee may retort this argument thus in regard of conformitie to ceremonies If it bee not lawfull to partake in the Ordinances of God where wee must actually joyne with such ceremonies then Christ the Prophets and Apostles must not have joyned in any ordinance of God in severall ages of the Church when worse or as ill corruptions were admixed with that worship But they never refused the ordinances of worship for such corruptions Therefore wee should not now for these ceremonies abstaine put case for kneeling at the Lords Supper c. If you please to solve this knot the same answer will serve our turne as well Reply It is not for private Christians to withdraw themselves from the ordinances of worship and communion of the Church because such are permitted to deale in the holy things of God whom they judge or know unfit when men joyne in the worship of God with unworthy Ministers they doe not countenance them their place and office but obey the commandement of God who requires their attendance upon his highnesse in that way and meanes Answ First wee grant it is not alwayes for private Christians so to leave the communion of a Church in the ordinances of God for such a reason but if they have first done their part according to their place to reforme or cast out such an unworthy and unable ministry and cannot or see no hope to procure one sufficient to edifie the Church hee may and ought to betake himselfe to some other Church where hee may bee edified and it is a great mistake to thinke in the constitution of the Gospell that a Christian cannot reject all fellowship with such Idoll Priests but hee must forsake the ordinances of Christ or rent off from the Church when indeed hee deprives himselfe of many ordinances in joyning with them and attaines them in forsaking of them Secondly if we consider wherein the outward call of all Church Officers in the New Testament lies viz. in a great part in the choice of the Church or at least in their after consent and receiving of them being chosen by others for them Act. 1. and 6. and 14. how can any godly man receive submit unto or acknowledge such unable wretches by receiving Gods ordinances from them as Ministers but they must needs countenance them in their places and set up to themselves an Idoll or meanes of worship to edifie themselves which God never appointed for let it bee proved that ever God appointed readers of a Liturgie to edifie the people Answ Thirdly but that to joyne in worship with such should bee to obey Gods command who requires attendance upon himselfe in that way and meanes wee thinke it a speech not so throughly digested if wee carry in our eye the case now in hand concerning these Idoll Priests and Silver shrines For where can they shew any such command or why hath it been suffered by any of our Brethren that the godly living under such Priests have been so frequently absent from them reading the liturgy to heare their Sermons Nay why have they not told them they were bound to attend upon God in hearing their Sir John read at home Wee appeale to all consciences whether they would approve of any godly man that would rest in such meanes and not call him to leave all his outward conveniences for some godly able Ministry or at least not to attend on them but get where they may bee better edified Reply To goe no further then the Text you quote Hosea 4.6 7. Because thou hast despised knowledge I have rejected thee properly the Text speaketh of the ten Tribes and the Priests amongst them who worshipped the Calves c. whom the Lord threatens to reject but neither this nor any other Text proves that people joyning in worship with such doe countenance them in their places Answ The Text proves that God rejects such Priests as these are just like Jeroboams Priests of the meanest of the people and that was all it was alledged for and that receiving such as Ministers doth countenance them in their places was proved before And if it bee meant of Jeroboams Priests as you say the approved practise of the godly in those dayes 2 Chron. 11.16 will well justifie and lead us to reject and leave these also Secondly there seemes to bee foure arguments why the people should withdraw from these kind of Priests First in regard of their miserable perishing for want of knowledge by their meanes Secondly because the people in receiving them rejected knowledge as Calvin notes upon the place Thirdly because God would take a time to disburthen the Church of them whence Drusius in locum

lawfull for matter and manner the corruption of him that useth it according to his judgement from what cause can it spring but humane ignorance and frailtie Answ First the learned replier is very apt to forget the termes of the Proposition which is of the whole Liturgie not of some things in it that hee may judge lawfull to judge the whole lawfull wee thinke none of those who sent the questions doe Secondly our question is not whether the Minister use the book of humane frailtie but whether the worship offered therein bee not so corrupt for matter and manner as puts a great difference betweene it and the prayers of a Minister that may bee subject to faylings of humane frailtie Wee doubt not but Bilney Latimer c. used the prayers and ceremonies of the Church of Rome out of humane frailtie yet the service it selfe and those ceremonies of holy water holy bread c. which Latimer turned to as good use as hee could were evill and no way to bee conformed unto by the godly Thirdly there are many things done of others through humane frailtie that is ignorantly and in some measure perversely yet such frailties though they are to bee very long tolerated in the man yet every humane frailtie is not so to bee tolerated as to bee communicated with for the grossest Idolatry in Popery may in this sense if ignorantly done bee accounted humane frailtie It is true wee may bee freed from communicating in anothers sinne two wayes 1. By bearing witnesse against his sinne or 2ly by withdrawing from the person committing it There were times wherein the Lord raised up witnesses against the growing abominations of Antichrist for many yeeres and there are times as Cameron well observes wherein the Lord commands his people not onely to beare witnesse but to come out of Babylon The case may be so put as that wee may quit our hands from communicating with other men in their sinfull worship by bearing witnesse onely against the sinne yet communicating with them in the rest è eonira the circumstances may bee such as that wee best free our selves from sinne by withdrawing from them in such acts And wee freely confesse wee know not how to acquit others that communicate in the whole Liturgie without the one or the other Reply Wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many who make much more use of the looke then onely in a few select prayers Answ You may so doe and wee rest assured you question not the integritie of many that have conformed to the ceremonies yet wee hope you will not justifie them in that act no more then we doe any in this Reply From the bottome of our hearts wee pray that the Lord would remove out of his Church what ever offends and yet all things might be so done as might be approved in the consciences of all Answ Wee not onely joyne with you in this hearty desire but blesse God that wee live to see the same so farre accomplished in a good part of England as it is but as wee are perswaded the growing light and zeale of many godly Ministers and Christians that have discovered the evill of the booke it selfe as well as the ceremonies thereof and their resolute rejection of the same was one blessed meanes hereof so wee feare the pleas and indeavours of some brethren to excuse it and the use of it will be a dangerous meanes to uphold in the hearts of many too good an opinion of it and loathnesse to cast it quite away to the Moles and Bats from whence it first came Reply To aggr●…vat●… faults especially when it tends to draw away people from the ordinances of God is no lesse evill then to excuse them it may bee greater Answ Wee grant at some times and in some cases it may bee so but in matters of corrupt worship wherein God is so jealous and at such a time as this was when the burthensome corruptions of humane traditions so violently imposed on the Churches grew to such a number and unsupportable weight to the consciences of so many wee doubt not to affirme that now extenuations were farre more dangerous and offensive to the Lord wee cannot but with sad hearts consider and call to minde how many weake Christians have ventured to swallow downe all manner of humane traditions and worships imposed upon them imboldned much wee feare by the examples if not the reasonings of many godly Ministers which scandall some of us with many amongst you have have cause to bewayle before the Lord and give satisfaction before the world And wee hope our departure from these burdens and flight into these wildernesses to enjoy Christ in more pure ordinances of his worship and the witnesse wee have thereby borne against them have not been in vaine through the grace of Jesus Christ Reply In them that joyne according to Christs command and libertie of absence from Christ hath not been shewed notwithstanding the corruptions wee hold the prayers to bee an holy and acceptable sacrifice to the Lord and pleasing to Jesus Christ Answ How any man can joyne with this whole Liturgie according to Christs command who in the second commandement forbids all humane devices in his worship whereof this Liturgie is so full it is hard for us to conceive and strange to see it affirmed and that Libertie from Christ to bee absent cannot bee shewed The whole sentence as it standeth wee confesse to us seemes an high justification thereof which wee little expected Reply The corrupt sacrifice is that which the deceiver bringeth voluntarily and out of neglect having a male in his flock but the godly bringeth himselfe and godly desires according to the will of God and the corruptions in matter or manner are not his they cleave not to his sacrifice to staine and pollute it The Text in Malach. 1. is misapplyed and wee desire such as alledge this passage against simple presence at the prayers of the Liturgie advisedly to consider whether God allow them to make such application of his truth which we much doubt of to say no more Answ That people joyning in the whole Liturgie voluntarily offer up the same wee thought had beene no question If any joyne by feare and compulsion though the will in this case is not forced for ●…i●…ta actio is voluntaria wee thinke that will not ease but aggravate the evill arguing a reluctancy or doubtfulnesse at least in his conscience and so what hee doth is not of faith and therefore sin Rom. 14. 2ly What you say of the faithfull here might be said for the faithful in Malachi his time if any godly man came with godly desires to Jerusalem to worship and then carelesly buy and take a corrupt sacrifice for cheapnesse ease c. shall hee not bee counted at least in part this deceiver and beare the curse And why not so here in this case Let a man bring himselfe and never so godly desires yet if hee

there is supposed a supreme Court in being to which the appeale may be prosecuted and there determined as in the highest Sanhedrin of Israel But there is not in the Church nor like to be such a supreme Court where such appeals may be ended Ergo. Objection 2 If it be said that what a particular Church binds on earth is bound in heaven except they erre but then appeals may be made and their power is gone Answ On this ground the universall Church should not have power to bind on earth so as in heaven without appeales for they may erre and that not onely rarely but frequently witnesse the complaint of Nazianzen and others of the time passed yea they may be as much inclined to erre considering the greatest part of Churches in the world are for the most part corrupt yea though they may have better eyes yet they are further from the mark if particular Churches have no power of excommunication because they may erre be corrupt be partiall or be divided upon the same consideration neither Classicall Nationall or oecumeniall Councells have any such power for they may erre grow corrupt be partiall and be miserably divided as well as a congregationall Church other Churches may admonish in case of scandall and counsell when a particular congregation wants light and moderate if desired in case of difference but still the power is in the particular Church Other arguments might be added but seeing this controversie as we hope will be more fully and purposely disputed by a farre better hand therefore we shall fall to the consideration of such Scriptures and some few generall Arguments which we meet withall in Mr. Ball briefly propounded and in divers other Authors more largely insisted upon which if the Lord be pleased to helpe us to vindicate and clear up we think other reasons and Scriptures of lesse force will fall of themselves And first we finde Cant. 6.4 c. to prove the whole Catholick church visible to be one Ministeriall Body because it is called One compared to an Army terrible with Banners in respect of the order of Discipline and described as being an organicall Body having eyes hair teeth c. Answ 1 Theologia Symbolica non est argumentativa except it can be made clear that the parable is applyed according to the true scope of it and no further which here is very hard to evince we know the whole Book of the Canticles is variously applyed by good Interpreters Brightman none of the meanest in this kinde of Scriptures applyes this place to the church of Geneva and the times of purer Churches to arise after it which are said to be terrible as an Army with Banners not in respect of Discipline but in respect of warlike power whereby that state of the church shall defend it self 2 But suppose that it is a description of the catholick church visible yet it cannot be a sufficient argument that it is one Ministeriall church For first the catholick church is the same in all ages and therefore by this reason it was a catholick Ministeriall body as well in the days from Adam to Abraham c. as in the New Testament Secondly by this argument we may prove Christ the head and husband of the church to be an organicall body as he is the Head of the Church for Cant. 5.10 11. c. the Church doth allegorically describe the beauty and excellency of Christ in severall organs and parts but we suppose though Christ Jesus in his humane nature hath members yet the scope of the Church is not at all to set forth the members of his humane body but the glorious excellencies and spirituall perfections of Christ as the Redeemer and Saviour of his Church according to the manner of Lovers who are taken with the beauty of their spouses in all their members When the spouse saith Cant. 1.1 Let him kisse me with the kisses of his mouth it were too grosse to apply it to the humanity of Christ or to argue from thence that Christ the husband of his Church is an organicall body Thirdly and lastly when the Church is called One the onely one of her Mother though it 's true she is one it seems rather to set out her excellency as rare and but one then her unity and so the other descriptions all tend to set forth her beauty in the eye and esteem of Christ neither is it any thing that the Church is compared to an Army terrible with banners for in the same Chap. vers the last she is compared to the company of Mahanaim or two Armies which is all one for the company of Mahanaim consisted of two Armies Gen. 32.1 2 3. where Jacobs host meeting an host of Angels he calls the place Mahanaim or two Hosts and therefore we may as well say the Catholick church is terrible with two Armies of Banners as one Answ A second and chief Scripture we meet withall in divers Authors is 1 Cor. 12.12 13. c. Whence the reason stands thus That church wherein Apostles Prophets Teachers c. are set is an organicall Church But those are set in the Catholick visible Church Ergo. For the better clearing of this Scripture it is needfull that we attend the scope of the Apostle who comming now to another branch of the things this Church had written unto him about Chap. 7.1 8.1 12.1 and this about spirituall gifts wherein they abounded Chap. 1.7 being the occasion of all their contentions and disorders Chap. 1.12 13. hence he is studious the more to re-unite them again Chap. 12.13 and to direct them how to improve their gifts orderly to edification Chap. 14. and in this Chapter he perswades their minds to unity who were divided partly through pride in their own gifts partly by disdain of others not so gifted hence he puts them in minde 1 What once they were following dumb idols 2 That all gifts are from the free dispensation of God and that one God one Lord one Spirit 3 That God in his wisdom hath dispensed great variety of gifts operations and administrations 4 That all are given to profit withal and these things he illustrates by a simile taken from a naturall body which having largely presented and applyed to this Church vers 27. he concludes with the variety of administrations in such things wherein they so much differed Chap. 1.12 13. God hath set saith he in the Church not onely Apostles or Prophets or tongues c. but all these are all Apostles are all Prophets c no but the wisdom of God hath given you variety of these gifts and administrations and therefore Chap. 3. to quiet them he saith Paul an Apostle Apollos an Evangelist c. all are yours and as this is the scope of the Apostle so we see nothing in the Chapter but is appliable to Corinth in particular yea applyed unto them by the Apostle as what he spake vers 22. of one body he applyes to

even amongst a few was not wont to be daunted with the grim looks of persecution 3 And lastly we grant Ephesus might be a numerous Church yet neither there no●… any thing that is said from Rev. 2.7 Hear what the Spirit 〈…〉 can perswade us that it was any more then one Congregation for that argues no more that Ephesus was a compound of many Churches then that it was compounded with all the other six Churches of Asia yea the Churches of all the world for what the Spirit speaketh to one Church is spoken for the use of all Reply It is not essentiall to the Church to 〈◊〉 together in one place ordinarily no●… is the Society broken off by persecution●… when 〈…〉 together in one place be interrupted Answ It is true one Church or Society by persecution or otherwise may meet in severall companies neither doe we say that place or meeting in one place is properly essentiall to the Church yet i●… to necessary both 〈…〉 to ●…e able at least so to doe for though it be not necessary to 〈…〉 of the Society thus to meet together yet it is necessary to the communion thereof in all Ordinances It is not necessary to the unity of a Classicall Presbytery to meet ordinarily in one place but unto the communion thereof it is necessary When the Papists to maintain their private Masses say That place is but accidentall to the ordinance And that Christians are not bound to the circumstance of place as H●…rdin objects any more then to observe dayes moneth●… times condemned as beggerly Elements by the Apostle Gal. 4. As also that all the faithfull are united together by the Sacraments though they meet not in the same place as the Ancients ●…o tell How doth learned Chamity answer them he tels them That although this or that particular place is not necessary yet a place indefinitely taken is ●… And that the Sacrament is restrained to be administred in a place because it cannot be administred but conventu fidelium and this conventus must be in some place And he adds That although all the faithfull have communion in the Sacrament though they meet not in one and the same place yet this he saith is to be understood of spirituall not sacramentall communion Nunquam ●…rim auditum qui Hierosolymis erant sacramentaliter communicasse cum iis qui Alexandrie and therefore he thought communion in one place together necessary to Church-communion as wee doe Reply Seventhly Seeing then both the seals in ordinary and extraordinary dispensation c. Answ This with that which follows being but a recapitulation of the severall Replies made we shall leave it to the judicious having well observed our answer to embrace or reject the Conclusion CHAP. VII Consid 2. THe Preposition is granted That the dispensation of the Sacraments both ordinary and extraordinary is limited to the Ministery but in that you alledge for confirmation some things may be noted 1 The first institution of Baptism is not contained in that passage but confirmed for the seals were instituted before his death c. Answ The Proposition being granted and the proof Mat. 28.19 being we doubt not pertinent in the Authors own judgment as well as ours Brotherly love might easily have passed over greater mistakes then the answer seems to have fallen into for by First institution here we meant no more then that it is the ordinance of Christ himself instituted in that first time of all Divine ordinances We were not so ignorant to think there was no use and so no institution of Baptism before the death of Christ and therefore this confutation might have been spared Reply Secondly We see not how you can apply that Text Matth. 28 19. to preaching by Office which by your exposition is a dispensing of a fit portion to every one of the houshold and it is plain the Apostles were sent to preach to every creature c. Answ As if that commission Matth. 28. did not authorize them also and require them to dispense fit portions to the Churches did not the care of all the Churches lye on the Apostle 2 Cor. 11.28 so also 1 Cor. 7.17 were not Apostles given to the Church for the edifying of the body of Christ c. as well as other Officers Ephes 4.11 12. 1 Cor. 12.28 and therefore this note also might well have been spared Reply Thirdly If under the power of the Keys you comprehend preaching by Office dispensing seals c. we deny the power of the Keys to belong to the Church or community of the faithfull in those passages which speak of this power the execution of this authority is given to them to whom the authority is committed Answ This of the power of the Keys and the execution thereof was onely in the Answer touched by the way to prevent the objection of some 1 It is well known that it is no new opinion to hold that the Church is the first subject of the Keys and to alledge Matth. 16. 18. for the same and therefore might as well have been set in the margent many ancient Divines and our own Modern as Fulke Whittaker Baine Parker and others as Robinson if there were not a desire to possesse people with that conceit that we goe in new ways with the Separatists alone 2 We distinguish between power and authority there is a power right or priviledge as Joh. 1.12 which is not authority properly so called the first is in the whole Church by which they have right to choose Officers Acts 6. 14. receiving members c. Authority properly so called we ascribe onely to the Officers under Christ to rule and govern whom the Church must obey Now we grant that where authority is given there power to exercise it is given also as Mat. 28. Joh. 20. c. it is given to the Apostles and Ministers and so where power is given to the Church there power to exercise the same orderly is given also as Mat. 18. 1 Cor. 5. 2 Cor. 2.10 Reply If the power of the Keys be given to the Church the Apostles themselves must derive their authority immediately from the Church and not from Christ for the power must be derived from them unto whom it was given c. Answ We deny your consequence for the Lord may give power to his Church in all ordinary cases and yet reserve to himself that prerogative to doe what he please immediately without the Church as is cleare that in this case he hath first calling his twelve Apostles Mat. 10. before he instituted the Church of the New Testament after he was pleased to use the Ministery of the Church Acts 1. to choose two and take one of them immediately by a lot and when Paul was called he appeared to him immediatly and called him both to the faith and to his Apostleship whereby it is clear that their call is a reserved case Reply If Ministers dispense the seals as the stewards of