that I might be at libertie to conferre and as free as he with whome I should conferre then quoth I it were some thing but els I see not to what purpose coÌ„ference should be offered but to deferre y t whiche will come at the length and the lyngering may giue more offence then do good Hhowbeit quoth I if my Lord should make suche an offre of his owne â–ª voluntarines I will not refuse to conferre withe whome so euer shall come Maister doctor hearing this called me arrogant still proud and what so euer pleased hym so that I besought them both because I perceaued by them I should shortely be called for to gyue me leaue to talke with God to begge wisedome and grace of hym for quoth I otherwise I am helpelesse And so they with muche a doo departed And I went to god and made my pore praier acordingly which of his goodnes he did graciouslie accepte and did helpe me in my neade praysed therfore be his holyename Shortely after they were gone I was had to saint Marie oueris and there taried vncalled for till xi of the clocke that is till Maister Saunders was excommunicated Vpon the .3 of Februarie the Byshoppe of London came to the Counter in the pultrie to disgrad Maister Doctor Taylor about one of the clocke at after noone but before he spake to Maister Tailour I was called forth vnto him when he sawe me of went hys cappe out stretched he his haÌ„de and on this sort he spake to me that bycause he perceaued I was desyrous to conferre withe some lerned man therfore he had broughte maister Archedeacone Harpsfeld to me and quoth he I tell you you doo like a wise man but I praye you goe roundlye to worke for the tyme is but short my Lorde quoth I as roundelyl as I can I wyll go to woorke with you I neuer desired to conferre with anye man nor yet doo howbeit if you will haue anye to talke with me I am redy to heare and aunswere hym What quoth my Lord of London in a fume to the keper did not you tell me that this man desired conference No my Lorde quoth he I tolde you that he wold not refuse to coÌ„ferre with any but I did not shewe to anye that it was his desire well quoth my Lord of London maister Bradforde you are welbeloued I pray you consider your self and refuse not charitie when it is offered In dede my Lord quoth I this is finale charitte to condemne a man as you haue condempned me whiche neuer brake the lawes In Turckie a man may haue tought free but in England I cold not fynd it for I am condempned for my faith so sone as I vttered it at your requeste before I had coÌ„mitted any thing againste the lawes As for conference I am not afrayed quoth I to talke with whome you will but to saye that I desire to conferre that do I not Well well quoth my Lorde of London and so called for maister Taylor and I went my waye Vpon the 4. of Februarie came one of my lord ChauÌ„cellors gentlemen sent as he said froÌ„ my lord as then being come froÌ„ the court Thys was about .8 of the clocke the eueninge The effecte ende of his talke message was that my Lorde his maister did loue me well and therefore he offered me tyme to conferre if I woulde desire it but as I had aunswered others in this matter so I aunswered him that I wold neuer make that sute but quoth I to coÌ„ferre with any I will neuer refuse bycause I am certaine and able I thancke god to defend by godlye learning my faith Thus with much a doo we shoke hands and departed he to his maister and I to my pryson Vpon the 7. of Februarie came one maister Wollerton a Chapplaine to the Bishoppe of LoÌ„don to conferre with me Who when he perceaued that I desired not his comming beinge as one most certain of my doctrine And therfore wished rather his departing theÌ„ abiding well maister Bradford quoth he yet I pray you let vs conferre a litle perchance you may do me good if I can dooe you none Vpon whiche wordes I was content to talke He spake muche of the doctors and fathers of the bread in the .6 chapiter of Iohn And so wolde proue transubstaÌ„tiation howe that wicked meÌ„ do receiue Christs bodie And I on the contrarie parte improued his aucthours with much by talke betwixte vs bothe and the keper who toke his parte litle to y e purpose SuÌ„ma to this issue we came that he should draw out of the scriptures and doctours his reasoÌ„s And I wold peruse them and if I could not aunswere theÌ„ I would giue place And so I desired him to do my reasons which I woulde make and so departed for that daye The next day following in the morning he sent me halfe a shete of paper written on bothe sides with no resons how he gathered his doctrine but onlye the bare sentence Panis quem ego dabo The bread whiche I wil giue is my fleshe And the places in the 26. of Matth. 14. of Marke .22 of Luke the .10 and .11 to the Corinth with some sentences of the doctors all which made as much against him as with hym al only one of Theophilactê° except in the after nowne he came himself and then we had a longe bablynge to none effecte and at the lenght he came to the church and how that I shwarued froÌ„ the churche Na â–ª quoth I that doo I not but you do for y e church is Christs spouse and Christes obedient spouse as â–ª your church is not which robbeth the people of the Lordes Cuppe of seruice in the English tonge Why quoth he it is not profitable to haue the seruice in Englishe and so he brought forth this sentence to proue it Labia Sacerdotis custodiant legem The lipes of the priestes should kepe the law and out of his mouth meÌ„ must loke for knowledge Why quoth I should not the people theÌ„ haue the scriptures wherfore serueth this of Christe searche the scriptures This quoth he was not spoken to the people but to the Scribes learned men wel quoth I then the people must not haue the scriptures whiche he affirmed bringinge fourth this Eâ— erunt docti a deo They shalbe all taught of God But must we quoth I lerne all at the priestes yea quoth he well then said I I see you would bringe the people to hange vppe Christ and let Barrabas goo as the priestes theÌ„ did perswade the people A which wordes he was so offeÌ„ded that he had no luste to talke any more Summa I gaue hym the reasons I had gathered against transubstantiacion and prayed hym to frame his in the frame of reasons and I woulde aunswere them well quoth he I wil do so but first I wil answere yours The whiche thing he hath not done hitherto nor wil not for I
Bradford answered that how so euer hrs honor toke him yet was he assured of his meaniÌ„g that no feare but y e feare of periury made him aferd to aunswere For as for death my lord ê™ he as I knowe ther ar .12 houres in the day so w t y e lord my time is appointed And wheÌ„ it shalbe his good tyme then shall I departe hence But in the meane season ê™ he I am safe ynough though al the worlde had sworne my death Into his haÌ„des I haue coÌ„mitted it his good will be done And ê™ Bradford sauiÌ„g mine oth I wil answer you in this behalf that the othe agaiÌ„st the. B of Rome was not nor is not against charitie Howe proue you y t ê™ my lord ChaÌ„celor Forsoth ê™ Bradford I proue it thus That is not against charitie whiche is not against gods worde but this othe against the bishop of Romes aucthoritie in Englande is not against gods worde therefore it is not against charitie Is it not against gods woorde ê™ my Lorde Chancellour that a man shoulde take a kyng to be supreme heade of the church in his realme No ê™ Bradford sauing styl mine othe it is not against gods worde but with it being taken in suche sence as it may be wel taken that is attributing to the kinges power y t soueraintie in all his dominions I praye you ê™ the lorde Chauncelour where finde you that I finde it in manye places ê™ Bradforde but specially in the .13 to the Romaines where Saint Paule writeth euery soule to be obedieÌ„t to the superiour power But what power que gladium gestat y e power verely which beareth the sweord which is not the spiritual but the temporall power As Chrisostome full well noteth ê™ Bradforde vpon the same place whiche youre honor knoweth better then I. He Chrisostome I meane ther plainly sheweth y t bishops prophetes and apostles owe obedience to y e temporall maiestrates Here yet more the Lorde Chancelour was stered and said howe that Bradforde went about to deny al obedience to the Queene for his oth so ê™ he this maÌ„ woulde make gods woord a warrant of disobedience For he will aunswere the Queene on this sorte that when she sayeth nowe sweare to the B. of Rome or obey his aucthoritye No wil he saie for I am then forsworne and so make the Queene no Queene No ê™ Bradforde I go not about to deny all obedieÌ„ce to the Queenes highnes by deniyng obedience in this part yf shee shoulde demaunde it For I was sworne to king Edward not simply that is not onely concernyng his owne person but also concerning his successours And therefore in denying to do the Quenes request herein I denye not her authoritie nor become dishobedient Yes that doest thou ê™ my Lorde Chancelor And so he beganne to tell a longe tale howe if a manne shoulde make an othe to pay a Cli. by such a day and the manne to whom it was due would forgeue the debt The debter woulde saie no you cannot do it for I am forsworne theÌ„ c. Here Bradford desired my lord Chauncellor not to trifle it saying y t he wondred hys honor would make solemne othes made to god trifles in that sorte And make so great a matter concerniÌ„g vowes as thei cal it made to the bishop for mariage of priestes At these wordes y e lord ChaÌ„celour was much offended said he did not trifle but ê™ he thou goest about to denie obedience to the Queene which now requireth obedience to the B. of Rome No my lord ê™ Bradford I dooe not denye obedience to the Queene yf you would discerne betwene genus and species Because I may not obey in this to reason ergo I maye not obey in the other is not firme As if a maÌ„ let one sel a pece of his inheritaÌ„ce yet this notw tstaÌ„dyng al his inheritaÌ„ce is not let or sold And so in this case all obedyence I denye not because I denie obedience in this branche I wil none of those similitudes said the lorde Chancellour I would not vse theÌ„ ê™ Bradforde if that you wente not about to perswade y e people I meane that which I neuer meÌ„t For I my self not onely meane obedience but wil geue ensample â–ª of all most humble obedience to y e Queenes highnes so long as she requireth not obedience agaynste god No no ê™ my lorde Chauncelour al men maie perceiue wel inough your meaning There is no man though he bee sworne to the king doth therfore break his othe yf afterwardes he be sworne to the Frenche king and to themperour It is true my Lorde ê™ Bradforde but the cases bee not like For here is an excepcioÌ„ thou shalt not sweare to y e. B. of Rome at any time If in like maner we were sworne thou shalt not serue themperour c. you see there were some alteracion and more doubt But ê™ Bradford I beseche your honour remembre what ye youre selfe haue written answeringe the obieccions here against in youre boke de vera obedientia Vincat modo domini verbi veritas Let Gods woorde and the reasons thereof beare the bell awaie Heare the lord Chauncelor was throughlye moued and saide styll howe that Bradforde had written sedicious letters and peruerted the people thereby and did stoutly stand as though he would defende the erronious doctrine in kynge Edwardes tyme against all men now ê™ he he saieth he dare not answer I haue written no sedicious letters ê™ Bradforde I haue not peruerted y e people But that which I haue writteÌ„ spokeÌ„ y t wil I neuer deny by gods grace And wher your L. saith I dare not answer you y t al meÌ„ may know I am not afraid sauiÌ„g mine oth ask me what you wyl I will plainelye make you answer by gods grace although I now see my lyfe lyeth theron But O lord ê™ he into thy hands I coÌ„mit it come what come will onelye sanctifie thy name in me as in one instrumente of thy grace Amen Now aske what you wil ê™ Bradford you shall se I am not afraid by gods grace flatly to answer Well then ê™ my lord Chauncelour how say you to the blessed sacrament do you not beleue there Christe to bee presente concernynge his naturall bodye My lorde ê™ Bradforde I doe beleue Christ to be corporally preseÌ„t in his sacrament duely vsed Corporally I say that is in such sorte as he woulde I meane Christe is there corporally preseÌ„t vnto faith Vnto faith ê™ my lorde Chaunceloure wee muste haue manye moe words to make it more plain you shal so ê™ Bradford but first geue me leaue to speake twoo wordes Speake on quoth my lord Chancellour I haue bene now a yeare and almoste thre quarters in prysone ê™ Bradforde and of all thys tyme you neuer questyoned wyth me heare aboutes when I myghte haue spoken my conscyence frankely wythout peryll But nowe you haue a law to haÌ„g vp and put to
Chancelor doest thou not answer haste thou written such letters as here is obiected against the As I said my lord quod Bradforde that I haue written I haue written I stande nowe before you whiche eyther can laye my letters to my charge or not if you lay any thiÌ„g to my charge that I haue writteÌ„ if I denye it I am then a lier we shall neuer haue done with thee I perceiue now saith my lord ChaÌ„celor be short be short wylt thou haue mercy I praye God quoth Bradforde geue me his mercie if therwith you wil extend yours I wyll not refuse it but otherwise I wil not Heare was now much a dooe one speaking thus and other speaking that of his arrogancye in refusing the Queenes pardon whiche she so louyngly â–ª dyd offer vnto him wherto Bradforde aunswered thus my lordes yf I may liue as a quiete subiect withoute clogge of conscience I shal hartely thanke you for your pardoÌ„ yf otherwyse I behaue my selfe then I am in daunger of the faute In the meane season I aske no more but the benefite of a subiect till I be conuinced of transgressioÌ„ If I cannot haue this as hitherto I haue not had goddes good wyll be doone Vppon these wordes my lord Chauncelor begon a loÌ„g proces of the false doctrine wherewith people were deceiued in the dayes of kyng Edwarde and so tourned the ende of his talk to Bradforde sayiÌ„g how sayst thou My lord quoth Bradforde the doctrine taught iâ— Kâ—â—g Edwardes daies was gods pure religion the whiche as I then beleued so doe I nowe more beleue then euer I didde And therein I am more confirmed and ready to declare it by gods grace euen as he will to the worlde then I was when I firste came into prisone What religion meane you quoth the bishop of Durisme in Kynge Edwardes daies what yeare of his raigne Forsoth quoth Bradforde euen that same yere of hys raigne my Lorde that the kynge dyed and I was preacher Heare wrote maister Secretary Bourn I wotte not what Nowe after a lytle pawsyng my Lorde Chauncelloure begynneth agayne to declare that the doctryne taught in Kynge Edwardes dayes was heresye vsynge for probacion and demonstraâ—ion therof no Scryppure nor reason but thys that iâ— ended wyth Treason and Rebellion so that quoth he the verye ende were ynoughe to improue that doctryne to bee naughte Ah my Lorde quoth Bradford that you would enter in to Gods Sanctuarie and marke the ende of this present doctrine you nowe so magnifie What meanest thou by that quoth he I wene we shal haue a snatche of rebellion euen now No quoth Bradforde my lord I meane no suche ende as you woulde gather I meane an ende whiche none seeth but thei y t enter into gods Sanctuarie If a man loke but on preseÌ„t thyngs he wil sone deceiue hiÌ„self Heare now dyd my Lorde Chauncellor offer againe mercye and Bradford answered as before mercye w t gods mercy should be welcome but otherwise he would none Whervpon the said lord Chancellor dyd ring a litle bel be like to cal in soÌ„e bodye for there was present none in maner but onelye these before named and the bishop of Worcester Now wheÌ„ one was come in it is beste quoth maister Secretarye Burne y t you geue y e keper a charge of this fellowe So was the vndermarshall called in you shall take this man to you quoth my Lord Chauncelor kepe him close without conference with any man but by your knowledge and suffer him not to wryte anye letters c. For he is of an other maner of charge vnto you now then he was before and so thei departed the said Bradford lokyng as cherefully as any man coulde doe declaring thereby euen a desire to geue his lyfe for confirmacion of that he hath taughte and written And surely yf he dooe so his death wyll destroye more of the Philistines as Sampson dyd then euer he dydde in hys lyfe God almyghtie keepe hym and al his felowes bounde for the lordes sake Amen ¶ The effect of the second examinacion of Iohn Bradforde in the temple of S. Marie Oueries before the lorde Chauncelour and diuers other byshoppes the .xxix. daye of Ianuarii .1555 AFter the excommunycacioÌ„ of IhoÌ„ Rogers Iohn Bradford was called in standynge before the lord Chancelour other bishops set w t him the said lord ChaÌ„celor spake thus in effect That wheretofore the .22 of Ianuarie they called the sayde Bradford before theÌ„ offred vnto hym y e Queenes pardoÌ„ although he had conteÌ„ned y e same further he said y t he would stifly stoutly maintaine defende therronious doctrine holdeÌ„ in y e daies of kyng Edward the .6 yet in coÌ„sideracioÌ„ that the Queenes highnes is woÌ„derfull merciful they thoughte good eftsones to offer the same mercy againe before it be to late Therfore ê™ my lorde Chauncellour nowe aduise you well there is yet space and grace tofore wee so procede that you be committed to the seculer power as we muste do and wil do if you will not follow thexample of M. Barlowe Cardmaker whoÌ„ he there coÌ„mended adding oratoriously amplificacions to moue the saide Bradford to yeld to the religioÌ„ preseÌ„tly set forth After the lord Chauncellors long talke Bradford began on this sorte to speake My Lord quoth he my lordes al as now I stand in your syght before you so I humbly beseche your honors to consider that you sit in y e sight of the lord who as Dauid doeth witnesse is in the congregacions of iudges and fittes in the myddest of theÌ„ iudgeing And as you woulde youre place to bee nowe of vs taken as gods place so demonstrate your selues to folowe hym in your sittyng that is seke no giltlesse bloude nor hunte not by questioÌ„s to bring into y e snare them whiche are out of the same At this presente I stande before you giltie or giltlesse if giltie theÌ„ procede and geue sentence accordinglye if giltles then geue me the benefite of a subiect whiche hitherto I could not haue Heare the Lorde Chauncellour replyed and saide that the said Bradford began with a true sentence Deus stetit in sinagoga c. but ê™ he this and all thy gesture declareth but Hypocrisie and vain glory And further he made much a do to purge himself that he sought no giltles bloud and so beganne a loÌ„g processe howe that Brodfordes facte at Poules crosse was presuÌ„ptuous arrogant and declared a taking vpoÌ„ him to lead the people whiche coulde not but tourne to much disquietnes ê™ he in y t thou speakiÌ„g to Bradford was so prefract and stout in religion at that preseÌ„t For y e which as thou wast theÌ„ committed to prison so hitherto haste thou bene kepte in prisoÌ„ where thou haste written letters to no litle hurte to the Queenes people as by the reporte of therle of Darby in the parlement house was credeblye reported And to this be added y t the said
caÌ„not tel how you wil stretche this woorde maintenaÌ„ce I will repete again y t which I spake I said I was more confirmed in the religion set foorth in king Edwardes dayes then euer I was if god so would I trust I should declare it by geuing my life for the confirmacion and testificacion therof So I saide then so I say again now ê™ Bradford As for otherwise to mainteine it then pertayneth to a priuate person by coÌ„fessioÌ„ I thought not nor thinke Well ê™ the lord Chancelor yesterday thou diddest mayntain false heresy coÌ„cernyng y e blessed sacrameÌ„t therfore we gaue y e respite til this day to deliberate My lord ê™ Bradford as I sayde at y e first I spake nothinge of the SacrameÌ„t but y t which you allowed therfore reê“ued it not nor gaue me no time to deliberate Why ê™ he diddest thou not denye Christs presence in the sacrameÌ„t No ê™ Bradford I neuer denyed nor taught but that to the fayth whole Christs body bloud was as presente as breade wyne to the dewe receyuer yea but doest thou not beleue that Christes bodye naturallye and reallye is vnder the forme of bread and wyne My Lord ê™ Bradforde I beleue Christ is preseÌ„t there to faith of y e dewe receyuer as for transubstanciacion I plainely and flatlye tell you I beleue it not Here was Bradford called a deuil or sclanderer for we axe no questioÌ„ ê™ y e lord Chancelor of transubstanciacion but of Christs bodily preseÌ„ce Why quoth Bradford I denye not hys preseÌ„ce to the faith of the receuer but denye that he is included in y e bred or that the bred is transubstanciated If he be not iÌ„cluded ê™ the B. of Worcester how is he then preseÌ„t Forsothe quoth Bradford my faith knoweth howe though my toÌ„g cannot expresse it nor you otherwise theÌ„ by faith heare it or vnderstand it Heare was much a doe now one Docter starting vp speking this another that the lord Chancelor talking muche of Luther zwiÌ„glius OecolaÌ„padiê° But stil Bradford kept theÌ„ at this point that Christ is preseÌ„t to faith and y t there is no transubstanciacion nor including of Christ in the bread but al this would not serue theÌ„ Therfore an other bishop asked this questioÌ„ whether y e wycked man receiued Christes verye bodie or no Bradford answered plainly no. Where the lord Chancelor made a long oracion howe y t it could not be y t Christe was present excepte that the euill man receiue hiÌ„ But Bradford put his oracion away in few woordes that grace was at y e present offred vnto his lordship although he receiued it not So y t ê™ he y t receyuing maketh not the presens as youre lordship would affirme but gods grace trueth power is y e cause of the presence the which the wicked y t lacketh faith cannot receue And here Bradforde prayed hym not to deuorce that whiche God hathe coupled together he hathe coupled al this together take eate this is my bodye he saieth not see pepe this is my bodye but take eate Here the lorde Chancelour the reste of the Bishoppes made a great a do that Bradforde hadde founde out a toy that no man els euer did of the condicions the lord Chancelor made many words to the people here aboute But Bradford said this My lord ê™ he are not these woordes take eate a coÌ„maundement and are not these woordes this is my bodye a promyse If you wil challenge the ê“mise do not y e coÌ„mandemeÌ„t may you not deceue your self Here the lord Chancelor denied Christe to haue coÌ„maÌ„ded any thiÌ„g in y e sacrameÌ„t or y e vse of it Why ê™ Bradford my lord I pray you tel the people what mode accipite manducate is it is plain to childreÌ„ that Christ in so saying coÌ„mandeth At these wordes the lorde Chauncellor made a great toying trifling at the imperatiue mode fel to proposing or examining as though he shuld teach a child so coÌ„cluded that it was no coÌ„mandement but such a phrase as this I praye you geue me drink which is no commandemeÌ„t I trow But Bradford prayd him to leaue toying trifling and said thus my lord ê™ he if it be not a commandemeÌ„t of Christ to take to eate the sacrameÌ„t why do any take vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to coÌ„maund make of necessity that which god leueth free as you do in making it a necessary commandemeÌ„t that once a yere for al that be of lawful discrecion to receiue the sacrameÌ„t Here the lord Chancelour calleth him againe Diabolus or slaunderer so began out of these woordes let a man proue himself so eate of the bread the bred ê™ Bradford and drink of the cup that was no coÌ„mandemeÌ„t for then ê™ he if it wer a coÌ„mandemeÌ„t it should bynde al men in al places at al tymes O my lord quoth Bradford discerne betwene coÌ„mandementes some be generall that thei binde alwaies in all places and all persones some be not so generall as this is of the supper The sacramente of Baptism of the appearing before the lord at IerusaleÌ„ AbrahaÌ„s offring Isaac Here the lord Chancelor said what say you that Baptisme is coÌ„manded theÌ„ quoth he we shal haue .xi. coÌ„mandementes In dede quoth Bradford I think you thinke as you speake for els you would not take the cup from the people seyng y t Christe sayeth drink of it al. But howe saye you my lord quoth Bradford Christe sayth to you bishops specially ite predicate euangelium goe preache the gospel fede Christes flocke is this a coÌ„mandement or not Here was the lord Chancelor in a great chafe said as pleased him Another I wene the B. of Durham asked him when Christ began to bee present in the sacrament whether before the receyuer receiued it or no Bradforde answered that the questioÌ„ was curious not necessary further said as the said cup was the new testameÌ„t so the bred was Christs body to him that receiueth it duely But yet so y e bred is bred for in al y e scripture ye shal not find this proposicioÌ„ non est panis ther is no bred so he brought forth s ChrisostoÌ„ Si in corpore essemus Summa much a do was here about thei calling Bradford heretike he desired them to procede a gods name he loked for y t whiche god appointed theÌ„ to do Loe ê™ the lord Chancelor this felowe is now in a nother heresy of fatal desteny as though all thynges wer so tyed together y t of mere necessitie al thinges must come to passe But Bradford praide him to take things as they were spoken not wreste them into a contrary sence your lordshippe quoth hee doth discerne betwixt god and manne things are not by fortune to god at any time thoughe to man they seme so some times I ê™ Bradforde spake but as the Apostles spake lord ê™ he see howe Herode
a presence I semeth quoth my Lorde of Chichester that you haue not red Chrysostome for he poiÌ„teth it Of truth my lord quoth I hitherto I haue ben kepte well ynough withoute bokes howbeit this I remember of Chrisostome that he lyeth vppon the altar as the Seraphins do touch our lips with y e coules of the altar in heauen whiche is an Hiperbolicall locucion as you knowe Chrisostome floweth with them It is to euident quoth my lord of yorke that you are gon to farre but let vs come againe to y e churche out of the whiche you are excommunicated I am not quoth I my lord Although they whiche seme to be in the churche and of the churche haue excommuninicate me as the pore blind man was Ihon .9 I hope Christ receueth me you deceaue your selfe ê™ he and here muche was spoken of excommunicacion At the laste I said my Lorde I pray you beare with me that whiche I shall simplye speake before you Assuredly quoth I as I thinck you did well to departe from the Romishe churche so I thincke you haue done wickedly to couple vs to it againe for you can neuer proue it which you make the mother Churche to be christes churche Oh maister Bradford quoth my lorde of Chichester you were but a childe when this matter began I was a yonge man then coÌ„ming from the vniuersitie went with the woorlde but I tell you it was alwaies agaiÌ„st my stomack â–ª I was but a child then quoth I â–ª how be it as I told you I thincke you haue done euill for nowe we are come to the wicked maÌ„ which sitteth in the Temple of god â–ª that is in the churche for it cannot be vnderstaÌ„d of the Mahumet or any out of the churche but of suche as beare rule in the church â–ª See quoth my lord of yorke howe you builde your faith vpoÌ„ such places of scripture as are moste obscure to deceaue your selfe as thoughe you were in the church where you are not Well my lorde quoth I thoughe I might by your frutes iudge of you and others yet will not I vtterly condempne you for euer oute of the churche for perchaunce you sinne of ignoraunce â–ª if I were in your case I thincke not quoth I that I should not coÌ„deÌ„pne him vtterly y t is of my faith in the Sacrament knowinge as you know that at y e least .viii. C. yeres after Christs as my lord of Durisme writteth It was free to beleue or not to beleue transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ This is a toye quoth he that you haue found out of your owne brayne as thoughe a man not beleuing as the churche doth That is transubstantiacion were of the Churche he is an hereticke and so none of the churche quoth my lord of Chichester that dothe hold any doctrine againste the definition of the Churche as nowe you do hold against transubstanâ—â—atioÌ„ And he brought furth Ciprian whiche was no Hereticke thoughe he beleued rebaptizinge of them whiche were baptized of heretickes bicause he held it before the churche had defined it where as if he had holden it after then had he ben an hereticke Oh my lord quod I wil you condempne to the deuil any man that beleueth truely the .12 article of y e faith wherein I take the vnitie of Christes churche to consiste al thoughe in some pointes he beleue not the definitions of that whiche you cal the churche If I shall speake to you franckelye I doubte not but he y t holdeth syncerlye the articles of oure belefe thought in other thinges he dissent from your definitions yet he shalbe saued yea quod they both this is your doctrine No quoth I it is Paule whiche saith that if they hold the foundacion Christe thoughe they build vppon hym Hey strawe and stouble yet they shalbe saued Lord god quoth my lord of yorke howe you delite to leyne to so hard and darke places of scripture yea quoth my Lord of Chichester I will shewe you howe that Luther doth excommunicate zwinglius for this matter so red a place of Luther making for his purpose My lord quoth I what Luther writteth as you muche passe not of so do I in this case my faith is not build of Luther zwinglius or Ecolampadius in this point And in dede to tel you truelye I neuer red anye of their woorkes in this matter As for their persons what so euer theire sayinges were yet doo I thincke assuredly that they were and are gods children and sainctes with him Wel quoth my lord of yorke you are out of the coÌ„munion of y e church I am not quoth I. For it coÌ„sisteth is in faith Loo quoth he howe you make your churche inuisible that would haue the comunion of it to consiste in faithe yea and like your grace quoth I for to haue coÌ„munioÌ„ with y e churche neadeth not visiblenesse of it coÌ„munion consisteth as I said in faith and not in exforior ceremonies as appeareth both by Paule whiche woulde haue Vnam fidem by Ireneus to Victor for y e obseruacioÌ„ of Ester saing that Dissonantiam ieiunii should not Rumpere consonantiam fide That same place quoth my lord of chichester hath often euen wounded my coÌ„science because we disceuered our selfes froÌ„ the Sea of Rome Wel quoth I God forgeue you for I thincke you haue done euyll to bringe England thyther againe your honors know I am plain therfore I beseche you beare with me Here my Lord of yorke toke a boke of paper of common places out of his bosome and red a peice of Saint Augustine Contra Epistolam fundamenti howe that there were many thinges that did hold saint Augustine in the bosome of the church consent of people and natioÌ„s aucthoritie coÌ„firmed with miracles nourished with hope increased wyth charitie established with aÌ„tiquitie Besides this there holdethe me in the churche saith saint Augustine stil the successions of priestes from Peters seate vntil this present Bishoppe Last of all the verye name of Catholicke doctrine dothe holde me Loo quoth he howe saye you to this of Saint Augustine pointâ— me oute your churche thus My Lord quoth I this of saint Augustine maketh as muche for me as for you althoughe I might aunswere that al these if they had ben alledged to bee so firme as you make them they might haue ben alledged againste Christ and his Apostles for ther was the lawe and ceremonies consented in by the people confirmed with miracles antiquitie and continual succession of byshoppes froÌ„ Aarons tyme vntil that present In good faith quod my lord of Chichester maister Bradford you marke to muche the state of the churche before Christs comming Sir quod I therein I do but as Peter teacheth .2 Pet. 2. and Paule verye ofteÌ„ you would gladly haue your church heare verye glorious and as a most pleasante Ladie but as a moste pleasante ladye but as Christes saith Beatus est quicunque non fuerit offensus per me so maye his churche saye blessed
are they that are not offended at me yea quoth I my lord you thinck none is of the church but such as suffer persecutioÌ„ what I thincke quod I god knoweth I pray your grace iudge me by anye wordes and speaking and marke what Paule saythe Omnes qui volunt all that wil liue godly in christ Iesu must suffer persecutions Sometime Christ church hath reste here but commonlye quoth I it is not so And specially towardes the end her forme wil be more vnsemlye But what saye you to sainct Augustin quoth he where is youre Churche that hath the consent of people nations Mary quod I al people natioÌ„s y t be gods people haue coÌ„sented with me I w t them in the doctrine of faith Loo quoth he howe you goo about to shifte of all thinges No my lord quoth I I meane simplye and so speake god knoweth S. AugustiÌ„ quoth he dooth here talke of successioÌ„ euen froÌ„ Peters sea yea like your grace ê™ I that sea theÌ„ was nothiÌ„g so much corrupt as it is now Wel quod he you alwaies iudge y e church No my lord quod I. As christs shep discerne christs voice but they iudged not it so they discerne the churche but not iudge her yes that you do sath heâ— No like your grace quoth I ful wel may a maÌ„ doubte of y e Romish church for she obaeth not Christs voice as christs true church doth wherin quod he iÌ„ lateÌ„ seruis ê™ I robbeth the Laytye of Christes cuppe in the Sacramentes Why quoth my lord of Chichester Latten seruice was in England when the Pope was gon True quoth I tyme was when the Pope was awaye but not all Poperie as in Kyng Henrys dayes Latten seruice quoth my lord of yorke was appointed to be songe had in y e Queare where only were Clerici that is such as vnderstaÌ„d laten y e people sitting in y e bodie of y e churche prayinge their owne priuat prayers and this quoth he maye well be yet sene by making of the Chaunsell and Quere so as the people could not come in or heare them yea qut my lorde quoth I both in Chrisostomes tyme and also in the laten churche in sainct Ieromes tyme as he writteth in the preface I trowe to the Galathians al the church saith Amen Aunswering againe mightely Amen whereby we maye see that y e prayers were made that both the people herd them and vnderstod them you are to blame quoth my Lorde of Chichester to saye that the churche robbeth the people of the Cup. Well my lord quod I turne it as please you all men knowe that the Laitye hath none of it In dede ê™ I I would wishe the churche would defyne againe that they might haue it for my ê‘t if god make free quoth I who caÌ„ define to make bound generallie Well quoth my lord of yorke maister Bradford we lese but labour for you seke to put awaye al thiÌ„gs y t be told you to your good your churche no man can knowe yes that you maye well quoth I. I pray you whereby said he forsoth Chrisostome shoeth it Tantummodo per scripturas onely by the scriptures and thus speaketh he verye often times togyther as you well knowe quod I â–ª In ded quod he that is of Chrisostome In opere imperfecto whiche maye be doubted of the thinge whereby the church may be knowen beste is successioÌ„ of Byshoppes No my lord quod I Lyra ful well writteth vppon Matthew that Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus ratione Potestatis secularis aut ecclesiastice Sedin hominibus in quibus est notiâ—ia Vera et confessio Fidei et veritatis And in Hilarius time you know he writteth to Auxcentius that the Churche dyd rather Delitescere in cauernis them Eminere in primariis sedibus Here commeth one of their seruauntes and tolde them that my lorde of Durisme taried for them at Maister yorkes house for inded it was paste .12 of the clocke vppon a .4 howres they taryed with me And after that there maÌ„ was come they put vp there written bokes of common places and saide they lamented my case and so wishing me to red ouer a boke whiche dyd doctor Crome good as my Lorde of Chichester sayde and wyshyng me good in words they wente there wayes and I to my prison Vppon mondaye whiche was the .22 of Februarie about .8 of y e clock in y e morning which was an howre soner then was appointed There came to the CouÌ„ter where I was in prison to Spannishe friers Alphonsus and the kings Confeffor as they said and with them twoo priestes whiche were Englishe men as I wene when the howse was voyded of other companye I was called donne beinge come before them a stoole was pouled out and I bidden sit doune whiche thinge I did after a signe of ciuilitie geuen to them Nowe thus sitting beginneth the Confessor to speake in latten and aske me in latten for al our talke was in latten whether I had not sene nor herd of one Alphonsus y t had writen against heresies And I aunswered that I did not know him well quoth he this man pointing to Alphonsê° is he Verye good quoth I. After this he beginneth to tell me howe that of loue and charitie by the meanes of the Erle of Darbye they come to me bycause I desired to conferre with them And I answered that I neuer desired there coÌ„ming nor to conferre with them or any other but quoth I seing you are come of charitie as you saye I cannot but thanckfully acknowledge it and as for conference though I desire it not yet quoth I I wyl not refuse to talke with you if you will Than began Alphonsus to tel me that it were requisite I did pray vnto god that I mighte followe the direction of gods spirite and as he should enspire me not being addicte to min owne selfe will and with where vpoÌ„ I made a prayer besaught god to directe al our wille words and workes as the willes words and workes of his children for euer yea quoth Alphonsus you muste praye with your herte For if you speake but with tong onely God will not giue you his grace Sir quoth I. doo not iudge leste you be iudged you haue hearde my wordes now charitie would haue you to leaue the iudgement of the hart to god you must quoth Alphonsus be as it were a newter not wedded to your sentence But as one standinge in doubte praye and beleue be redye to receaue what god shall inspire for quoth he in vaine laboureth our tong to speake els Sir quoth I my sentence if you meane it for Religion must not be in a doubting or vncertein as I thaÌ„cke god it is not euen for that where in I am condeÌ„pned I haue no cause to doubt but rather to be most certein of it therfor I pray god to confirme me more in it for it is his truthe And therfore