is it fully written by S. Iohn Let vs heare him selfe speake These things saith he are writen that ye may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the sonne of God and that in beleeuing yee may haue life through his name In which wordes the summe and end of the gospell is set downe by Iohn the summe that we may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the Christ that is the soueraine Priest Prophet and King the Sauiour of men the end that we beleeuing in Christ the sonne of God may through him haue life euen that which alone is called life rightly to wit eternall life Which things being so as the Euangelist him selfe teacheth it must néedes be granted that those things which are writen in the gospell are sufficient for vs both to the way of life and to life As much then as sufficeth to faith and saluation so much is writen in the gospell For if the things which are writen had not béene sufficient to faith and saluation there were mo thing◠which might haue bene writen so many as the world could not haue conteined But these were omitted by the spirit of God because the other were enough for his purpose For he giueth this reason why mo were not writen these things are writen that yee may beleeue and in beleeuing may haue life There is contained therefore in S. Iohns gospell so much as is sufficient to faith and saluation Then if S. Iohns gospell alone haue sufficient how plentifully hath Christ prouided for his Church as a most bountifull Lord for his houshold to which he hath giuen so many Apostles and Euangelists witnesses and expounders of the same doctrine Wherefore the scripture doth not onely teach the Church but also amply and plentifully teach it all things behoofull to saluation For although the substance of the Christian faith be single and the same wherewith as with meate the seruants of God are fedde to life eternall yet as the ages of the seruants differ and in ages different their cases differ too so was it méete there should be sundry sortes and waies to diuide that meate and as it were to season it for ech one his part as it might best agrée with him Whereof that we might haue a true liuely paterne set foorth by Christs owne spirit in the word of life for the féeding of the faithfull therefore hée gaue sundry woorkemen so to terme them and writers of his faith that although they deliuered all the same foode yet they did not dresse it all in one sort And so it cometh to passe that in those writers of the faith of Christ both the vnitie of doctrine in the diuersitie of deliuering yeldeth a swéete tast in the spirituall mouth of the godly minde and the manifold vse ministreth holesome nourishment to euery mans stomake the euident plainnesse in the groundes of faith maketh that euen they who are of deintiest mouthes can not refuse it for the toughnes and the hidden wisedome in the secretes of scripture both trieth the strongest and satisfieth them who are sharpest set and to say that in a word which no wordes can expresse enough the infinite treasures bring infinite fruits to the faithfull to procure them a blessednes that is exceeding great and infinite Wherefore it is a thing so cléere and so sure that those secretaries of the holy Ghost ioyned togither doo open to the Church in the holy scriptures all things behoofefull to saluation that he who knoweth it not may be iustly counted ignorant hée who acknowledgeth it not lewde hée who dissembleth it vnthankfull hée who denieth it more then wicked For what can there be in cléerenesse more euident or in peise more weightie or in strength more sound or in truth more certaine then that generall principle which S. Paul deliuereth not as Moses of the law not as Iohn of the gospell but of the whole scripture and holy writt to Timothee The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousnes that the man of God may bee furnished throughly furnished to euery good worke Thus if you demaund of what autoritie scripture is it came from God by inspiration if you regard what vse it hath it teacheth improueth correcteth instructeth if you would sée to what end it is that the man of God may be furnished Our dutie in Christ Iesus is faith woorking by loue Faith embraceth sound doctrine loue requireth a godly life Soundnes of doctrine is held if true things be taught and false refuted Godlines of life is kept if we fly from euill and folow good But the holy scripture teacheth the truth improueth errour correcteth iniquitie instructeth to righteousnes as it appéereth by the Apostles wordes Therefore it setteth foorth a mans whole dutie in Christ Iesus that is as I suppose so much as sufficeth to saluation For it is not onely profitable to these things as some doo mince the matter but sufficient too in so much that it is able to make a man wise to saluation through faith and to furnish him Yea to furnish what maner of man the man of God that is the Lordes interpreter the Minister of the worde the teacher of the Church the Pastour of the flocke euen Timothee himselfe much more the flock of the faithfull in whom so great furniture of wisdome is not necessary Howbeit the Apostle neither so contented with saying that the man of God may be furnished addeth to beat the absolute perfection of the scripture into our mindes and memories with as many reasons as he vseth wordes that the man of God may be furnished throughly furnished to euerie good worke Whereupon it foloweth that there is nothing at all that can be wished for either to soundnes and sinceritie of faith or to integritie and godlines of life that is to mans perfection and the way of saluation which the scripture geuen by inspiration of God doth not teach the faithfull seruantes of Christ. It is the iudgement therefore of the holy Ghost whose sentence I defend as I am bound by duetie that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation Here if some perhaps desire the testimonies of the Fathers though to what purpose sith ye haue heard the Father of Fathers notwithstanding if any would heare the scholers iudgement when he hath heard the masters he shall heare the iudgement not of this or that man of whom he might dout but of the whole Church and of all the Saints For they with one agréement and generall consent haue termed the bookes of scripture Canonicall of the word Canon which signifieth a rule because they containe a worthy rule and squire of religion faith and godlines according whereunto the building of the house of God must be fitted Which opinion touching the Canon of the scripture allowed by Andradius himselfe the chiefest patrone of the Popish faith hath béene
thinke that the Master of the Kinges Eunuches taught them more exactly then any of the Iewes did within Ierusalem But for the liberall artes and language of Chanaan the skill of our readers the course of our studies the orders of our Colleges and Vniuersities are such what through publike lectures thereof what through priuate with sundrie kinds of exercises to ripen the trauailes of students in them both that if I listed to deale as S. Paul doth with the false Apostles I might boldly say they are Hebrues so am I. For if you excell vs in one helpe of lerning as your harder state in a strange countrey may breede greater diligence then ours at home more plentifull wee counteruaile you with vauntage in an other as that we spend sixe yeares in the studie of Philosophie for that you spend three seuen in Diuinitie for that you spēd foure Wherein I referre it to your owne iudgements whether our so long time though with meaner helpes be not as auaileable to soundnesse maturitie of iudgemēt knowledge which yeares doo greatly furder as your helpes whatsoeuer they be in so short time Or weene you of your selues that from your first entrāce into the studie of logike three yeares can make you perfit Masters of the artes so perfit passing eminent as you are borne in hand and foure yeares as perfite graduates in Diuinitie Or is not this hast vsed by the Masters of the Popes Eunuches to dispatche you quickly that you may serue in his affaires But it was not my purpose to enter into comparison of our Colleges with your Seminaries much lesse of our two most noble Vniuersities with your two Colleges Let your readers be as skilfull as angels of light as painefull as the Prince of darkenesse Let their orders and lectures and exercises passe ours as farre as the little finger of Roboam was bigger then his fathers loynes The knowledge which they teach you is of good and euill like that of the serpent which deceiued the woman It is not the doctrine of Ierusalem but of Babylon the toung of the Chaldeans not the language of Chanaan which you shal lerne of them Neither do they instruct you as children of the Prophets to stand before the Lord but as the Kings Eunuches as Babylonish vasals to stand before the Pope When Daniel requested the Master of the Eunuches that he and his felowes might not bee forced to eate the meate and drinke the wine of the Kings prouision least that it being often such or vsed so as was not allowed by the law of God they shuld be defiled therby and offend the Master said vnto him I feare my Lord the king who hath appointed your meate your drinke for why should he see your faces in worse liking then the other children that are of your sort so shuld you indaunger my head to the King A godly affection in Daniel and his felowes and sauoring of the instruction taught them in Ierusalem that they should be holy because the Lord is holy But the Master of the Eunuches had lerned an other lesson that he must doo in al things as the King cōmanded Which although he would haue taught his scholers also according to the artes and toung of the Chaldeans yet hee shewed by mentioning his feare of the King that he misliked not their scruple of conscience could be contented to grant their request so that it were without his danger VVhereby it came to passe that an other officer whom he set ouer them did grant it I would to God my brethren the Iesuites the rest whom Nabuchodonosor of Rome hath ordained to be your Masters vsed you no worse then Asphenaz did them For then notwithstanding they would say vnto you VVe feare our Lord the Pope who hath appointed your doctrine your faith if your cōscience grudged at some point therein as differing from the word of god yet shuld not your soules be forced to that other ouerseers might giue you better food But other ouerseers they are so linked all in one deuotion to the will pleasure of their Lord the Pope that if you bring forth but a bud of such fruite they nippe it off straight and teach you to thinke and speake in all respects according to the artes and toung of the Romans VVhereof they haue giuen experiēce proofe in many lerned men writers of your side But three fresh examples may suffice to shew it euen Ludouicus Viues Iohannes Molanus and Carolus Sigonius For Viues had vttered in his cōmentaries on S. Austin some speeches that stood not with the Popes liking as namely that Princes are supreme gouernours in earth next vnder God that humane affections doo raigne oftentimes in the holiest men and Fathers haue their ouersights that Saints are esteemed and worshipped by many as were the Gods among the Gentiles that the storie of Susanna of Bel and the Dragon are not canonicall scriptures that they who preferre the Latin translation before the Greeke and Hebrew fountaines are men of euill mindes and corrupt iudgements that none must bee blamed for the kinde of meates but for excesse in eating by the doctrine of the Gospell that Priests are ambitious couetous vnchast enriching their bastards with the churches spoiles yea wicked and vngodly in causing thinges of Christ to be set foorth in playes that all things almost are solde and bought at Rome that by rules orders of most holy law to be short that Schoolemē through ignoraunce of toungs haue not only marred smoothered all other artes but Diuinitie too and haue profaned it with their curiositie their vanitie their folly their rashnes in moouing and defining questions as Aristotelians rather then as Christians and heathen Philosophers then scholers of the holy Ghost Now these sundrie speeches mo to like effect the Diuines of Louan in their late edition of S. Austins workes haue taken out of Viues shauing off his lockes as Dalila did Samsons haue made him like an other man Molanus setting foorth the Church of Romes Legende the Martyrologe of Vsuarde with notes of his owne and D. Hessels Censure on certaine stories of Saints had therein discredited not onely forged writings bearing false titles as tales of the Apostles fathered on Abdias of Martialis on Aurelian of Austin on Ambrose but also the reports of their right autours though speaking not aright Pope Adrian Palladius Cassianus Nicephorus and Simeon Metaphrastes The chiefest defense of the Masse of merites of moonkrie of nunnerie of the worship of Saintes of relikes of images and other superstitions and errours of Poperie doth stand on the credit of these records and euidences or as good as these Wherefore Molanus being reprehended and tolde thereof by many was faine to bee a Censour of
If any man preach vnto you more then you haue receyued but beside that you haue receyued For if he should say that he should be preiudiciall to him selfe who desired to come to the Thessalonians that he might supply that which was wanting to their faith Now he that supplyeth addeth that which was wanting taketh not away that which was and so forth Whereby S. Austin sheweth that we may preach more then the scripture hath but not beside it that is to say against it Rainoldes He sheweth nothing lesse as any man that readeth his discourse may see For that which he speaketh of more and of wanting is not meant of scripture that is the worde writen but of the worde preached deliuered by mouth Wherein he declareth that the Apostles maner of instructing men was to feede them first with milke not with strong meat So that which was wanting to the Thessalonians was stronger doctrine of the faith that which they had was easier Wherof though in the one he taught them more then in the other yet no more in either then the scripture hath And thus S. Austins more to be no more then scripture himselfe maketh manifest by the example also which he giueth of it For the doctrine of the manhead of Christ he calleth milke of the Godhead strong meat Now they who are taught to know him to be God learne more then they had learned when they receaued him as man But they learne no more then the scripture hath which teacheth him both God and man Wherefore that S. Austin condemning all who preach ought beside the scriptures of the law the gospell meant that more then scriptures may be preached but nought against them it is not S Austins glose but your Louanists and in truth repugnant to S. Austins text For in the same place S. Austin making mention how the Donatists hated him for preaching of the truth and confuting their heresie as though saith he we had commanded the Prophets and Apostles who were so long before vs that they in their bookes should set downe no testimonies whereby the Donatists might be proued to be the church of Christ. Which words doo shew plainly that as by the scriptures of the law the gospel he signified the bookes of the Prophetes Apostles so by condemning all that is beside the scriptures he meant not all that is against but all that is not in the scriptures And that this was his meaning he sheweth yet more plainely by willing them to proue their doctrine by the testament which your Louan Doctors the greater shame for them to wrest S. Austins wordes against his sense doo note also For as amongst men the testament doth open the will of the testaâ—or so did S. Austin thinke that the controuersie betwixt the Donatists and the Church should be decided by the Scriptures which Christ hath left to Christians as his will and testament For Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthly Father is wont with his children who fearing least they should fall out after his decease doth set downe his will in writing vnder witnesses if there arise debate amongst the brethren they go to the testament He whose word must end our controuersie is Christ. Let his wil be sought in his testament saith Optatus Which reason of Optatus S. Austin vrging against the Donatists as he doth other often we are brethreÌ„ saith he to them why doo we striue Our father died not vntestate he made a testament so died Men do striue about the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened read The iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the cryer biddeth peace all the people is attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read heard He lyeth voide of life feeling in his graue and his words preuaile Christ doth sit in heauen and is his testament gainesaied Open it let vs reade we are brethren why do we striue Let our mindes be pacified Our father hath not left vs without a testament He that made the testament is liuing for euer He doth heare our words he doth know his owne word Let vs reade why doo we striue Were not this a séely spéech of S. Austin if hee had meant as you say that all the Lords will is not declared in his testament that thinges beside his owne worde may be proued by mens words Let him be accursed who preacheth any point of faith or life beside the scriptures True beside the scriptures that is against the scriptures say your Louan Doctours Sée what skil can doo If they were Doctours of the Arches we should haue ioly law For a coosining marchant might claime a thousand pound of a dead mans goods who had bequeathed him a legacy of tweÌ„tie grotes they might adiudge it him with good consciences as not against the testament though beside the testament Nay they might do this with so much better reason then they doo the other by how much the testament of God is more perfit theÌ„ any mans can be and that which Christ bequeathed the Pope is farre lesse in comparison of the supremacie then twentie grotes of a thousand poundes Wherfore say the Doctors of Louan what they liâ—t perhaps they speake for their fée S. Austin meant plainely that sith the Donatists claimed the inheritaunce of Christ to them selues they must proue their title by his will and testament Which if they could not doo or rather séeing that they could not he pronounceth of them they had no right vnto it And thereupon he commeth to the generall sentence of the heauenly iudge denouncing them accursed who in any point either of faith or life doo preach beside that which is deliuered in the scriptures of the law and the gospel Wherein if beside do signifie against then all in this respect is against a testament which is beside a testament Hart. S. Austin and Optatus against the Donatists doo speake reason that vnlesse they can proue their right by Christes testament they may not shut the Catholikes out from his inheritance and claime his goods vnto them selues For it is meete that the will of the testator should be kept But a learned lawier one Francis Baldwin who hath set foorth Optatus and writen notes vpon him doth shew that a testament may be either nuncupatiuum as he calleth it or scriptum either set down in writing or vttered by word of mouth What say you to testamentum nuncupatiuum Rainoldes I graunt that a testament may be made without writing so that it be done before a solemne number of witnesses But the testament of Christ is writen I hope and so doo both Optatus and Austin speake of it Wherefore your learned Lawier may kéepe that law in stâ—re vntill his client néede it Hart. As who say the testament of Christ might not be writen in part though
would haue me thinkes no ceremonies at all for you saide that the worship of God amongst Christians is spirituall meerely Rainoldes I spake in comparison of the Iewish worship or rather Christ not I. For they are his wordes that God will be worshipped now in spirit and truth Which must néedes be meant of meere spirituall worship sith the reason folowing that God is a spirit doth shew that the Iewes did worship him in spirit too And yet is that spoken in comparison as I saide For Christ him selfe ordeined two principall ceremonies which we call the sacraments his Supper and his Baptisme And the Church-assemblies which are helpes most necessarie for vs to learne and practise that spirituall worship must haue their time when their place where their maner how things to be directed with coomelinesse and order in rites fit to edifie But these are few in number and cléere in signification So few that they are nothing in comparison of the Iewish so cléere that they do liuely represent Christ and are no darke shadowes Now whether that your Popish ceremonies haue kept this fewnes and cléerenes Hart. Perhaps you meane because we haue seuen sacraments and not two onely But the Fathers as namely S. Austin though your men alleage him to the contrary doo name other sacraments beside the Lordes Supper as you call it and Baptisme Rainoldes But S. Austin nameth not your seuen sacraments as you may see by his Confession Hart. Yet he nameth more then your two sacraments And the rest of ours are proued by other Fathers Whereupon the Councell of Trent hath defined that there are seuen sacraments of the new law neither more nor fewer they all are sacraments truly and properly Rainoldes The Fathers doo commonly vse the word sacrament for a mystery or signe of a holy thing And so you may proue seuen and twentie sacraments by them as well as seuen Which is manifest by S. Austin whom you pretend herein most For as he giueth the name of sacrament to mariage to the ordering of ministers to laying on of hands and reconciâ—â—ng of the repentant so he giueth it to Easter and to the Lords day to the sanctifying and instructing of nouices in the faith the feeding the signing the catechizing of them the making of prayers the singing of Psalmes and so forth to other holy rites and actions But as the worde sacrament is taken in a straiter signification to note the visible signes inistuted by Christ for the assurance and increase of grace in the faithfull which is the sense of it both with you and vs when we speake of sacraments so doth he name those two as principall ones by an excellencie and when there issued blood and water out of Christes side these are the two sacraments saith he of the Church meaning the Lordes supper by blood by water baptisme Yea the Schoolemen them selues who were the first autours that did raise them vp to the precise number of seuen no more nor fewer for you â—â—nde it not in any of the Fathers or other writers whatsoeuer before a thousand yeares after Christ but the Schoolemen them selues haue shewed that the seuen are not all sacraments if the name of sacrament be taken properly and straitly For neither can mariage so be of the number as Durand proueth well neither confirmation the chrisme of oyle and balme as Bonauenture teacheth And to be short their captaine Alexander of Ales doth auouch expressely that there are onely two principal sacraments which Christ himselfe did institute so that by his confession as we speake of sacraments there are two only But my meaning was not to blame you for seuen I spake of all your ceremonies which are I may say boldly seuentie times seuen Which whether that they be so few and so cléere in comparison of the Iewish as I haue declared and you confesse that Christian ceremonies should be let the learned iudge by comparing of your Church-bookes chiefly the Ceremoniall Pontificall and Missall with the bookes of Moses Let the vnlearned gesse by the store and straungenesse of sacrificing vestiments whereof their common Priests had thrée yours haue sixe their high Priest had eight your Bishops haue fiftéene at least and some sixtéene beside the Popes prerogatiue-robes And so to leaue this matter to their consideration your owne confession yeldeth enough for my purpose touching the place of Malachie For if the spiritual worshipping of God wherewith the Iewes did serue him had ceremonies in number more in signification darker then it hath amongst the Gentiles this kinde of seruing him with fewer ceremonies cléerer is proper to the Gentils might succeede that which was amongst the Iewes Wherefore D. Allens third fourth reasons whereby he would proue that the offering spokeÌ„ of in Malachie the Prophet must signify the outward sacrifice of the Masse and not spirituall sacrifices can take no holde against vs. No more then ours could take against you of the contrarie if we should conclude that it must betoken a spirituall worship not outward offeringes on an altar because outward offeringes are common to the Iewes with vs and this is proper to the Gentiles and this should succéede the Iewish worship of God and come in steede of it which no outward offeringes and sacrifices can doo sith they are coopled alwayes to Gods spirituall worship Would you allow these reasons Hart. They are not like to D. Allens But the fifth reason doth put the matter out of doubt For in the iudgement chiefly of heretikes our workes are defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull but that Propheticall offering is cleane of it selfe and so cleane of it selfe in comparison of the olde sacrifices that it cannot be polluted any way by vs or by the worst Priests For here in our testament they can not choose all the best to them selues and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the féeble the lame and the sicke as before in the old because there is now one sacrifice so appointed that it can not be changed so cleane that no worke of ours can distaine it Rainoldes And thinke you M. Hart that the workes of Christians can not be the offering which the Prophet speaketh of because they are defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull Thinke you thus in déede Then you consent yet in the chiefest point of Christian religion which God graunt you doo with heretikes as you terme vs. For if our workes be defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull chiefly as heretikes iudge then are men iustified by faith not by workes If our workes bee defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull then fulfill we not the law of God perfitly much lesse super-erogate If our works be defiled howsoeuer they seeme bewtifull then are they meritorious of euerlasting death but euerlasting life
the fyer frends to the sword brethren to cruell death and stained the faith of Christ with reproches creatures with the Lordes honour Gods seruice with idolatrie we went away from Papists not willingly as from men not vnwillingly as from heretikes and reforming our Churches by the rule of Gods worde we seuered them from the contagion of the Church of Rome Wherin because nothing was doon by our brethren but that which the Apostle S. Paul a chosen instrument of the holy Ghost both did and taught to be doon as I haue proued in the Conclusion the Lord shal iudge beweene our Churches and Bristow who condemneth them of the same schisme of which the Donatists were guiltie and he will giue sentence in the last day that we haue beene seuered from the Church of Rome by the prescript of his word that is lawfully But some man will say you ought not to leaue the felowship of the Romans of them which are at Rome beloued of God Saints by calling whose faith is spoken of throughout the whole world But I answere that the Romans which now are there be not Romans they be carkases of Romans It is an other Milo his lustie armes are dead It is an other Hector how greatly chaunged from him But you ought to obey and not resist the Pope of Rome most good in grace most great in power the vicar of Christ the successour of Peter But that we must resist him if he command thinges vniust and pernicious yea that it is the dutie of Princes to resist him in vnlawfull thinges the Papists them selues teach But Christians ought to keepe vnitie of spirit in the bond of peace and the name of peace is sweeete the thing it selfe both pleasant and healthfull But through vnitie of spirit we ought to grow together into the vnitie of of faith and to be all of one minde but in the Lord. If peace should be made with the Pope and Papists it would be like the peace with Antonie and his adherents that is not a peace but an agreement of slauery to them nay of impietie Wherefore as Agamemnon in a Gréeke Poet did answere his brother Menelaus of whom he was requested to shew him selfe a brother by giuing his consent to a wicked act so doo I answere my brother requesting me to ioyne with him in felowship of the Church of Rome whose faith is vnholy whose seruice is vngodly My wittes I would enioy with thee But madde with thee I would not bee And here an ende of my preface Onely this remaineth that I desire hartily and beséech all Christians who shall take paines in reading hereof that they will reade weigh and interpret all thinges with a Christian minde lay aside the preiudice of their owne opinions examin the spirits whether they be of God or no séeke to finde the truth and loue it being found aduertise me if they thinke I haue missed in any thing beare with my briefenes because I was constrained to shut vp much in few wordes looke how faithfull and diligent I haue béene in opening and prouing the Conclusions whereof God is my witnes who will reuâ—ale the secretes of thoughtes so moderate and indifferent let them shew them selues in censuring and iudging of that which they shall reade as before the Lord who shal be iudge of iudges Finally let them folow the godly people of Beroea who when Paul preached receiued the word with al readines of mind and dayly serched the scriptures whether those things were so not the froward Luciferians of whom he confesseth who best knew the maners of his owne companions that they might be conuinced more easily then perswaded As for you my fathers and brethren welbeloued with remembrance of whom I haue consecrated my labour such as it is to the Church of God I pray you and beséech you by our Lord Iesus Christ who hath redéemed vs with his pretious blood and sanctified vs to him selfe that you will striue by all meanes to aduance the glory of God to cherish the séedes of godlinesse to helpe forward the Churches safetie to nourish fruitfull plantes to make the Uniuersities praise to be encreased I meane the prayse which is not of men but of God Confute you the ill spéeches of Bristow by your deedes and shew by your workes that the crimes wherewith hee chargeth vs are sclanders Bestow ye well the good oportunitie of time in studie of good artes by hearing reading disputing meditating speaking and writing Doo ye the worke of the Lord with ioynt desire and will and trauaile one body one spirit one hart one way Stirre vp exercise of learning decayed I had almost said but I hope better Destroy those wanton lusts that draw men from studie idlenes a swéete euill delicacie the baite of Venus the ryote of feasts the vanitie of apparell vnhonest pastimes vnseasonable drinkinges the plagues of stageplayers the sights and shewes of Theaters Last of all to conclude with the Apostles wordes whatsoeuer things are true what soeuer things are honest whatsoeuer things are iust whatsoeuer things are pure whatsoeuer things are woorthie loue whatsoeuer things are of good report if there be anie vertue and if there be any praise thinke ye on these things If there be any vertue and if there be any praise brethren thinke ye on these things The God of might and mercie lighten vs all with the grace of his holy spirit that the heads of Colleges may be present to gouerne and gouerne to benefit the companie committed to them as Samuel was wont that the members of Colleges may lerne vnder Samuel to prophecie by speaking of and setting foorth the praise of God as the prophets did that young men who studie the artes of humanitie may in other things be vnlike to Saul yet like to Saul among the prophets that Colleges themselues and all our companies may be assemblies not of prophets onely but of such as prophecie and folow the lessons of the prophets to the honor of God the comfort of the godly and our owne saluation through Iesu Christ our Lord. Fare ye well From Corpus Christi College The 2. of February 1580. Yours in Christ Iesus Iohn Rainoldes CONCLVSIONS HANDLED AT THE ACT IN S. MARIES CHVRCH THE XIII Oâ— IVLY 1579. 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all thinges necessarie to saluation WHen Moses went by Sinai mount toward the holy land FroÌ„ Gods owne mouth the law he wrote the Lord did guid his hand The Prophets next with sacred â—en did bolde that heauenly â—â—ce Whom the almightie from aboue indued with his grace The wisdome of his father high the sonne of virgin pure Anointed with the spirit of God mens sinfull soules to cure The word of the eternall Lord with flesh of man yclad Brought them the treasures rich of life of peace the tidings glad Th' Apostles with this
THE SVMME OF THE CONFERENCE BETWENE IOHN RAINOLDES AND IOHN HART TOVCHING THE HEAD AND THE FAITH OF THE CHVRCH Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures the ministerie of the Church the function of Priesthood the sacrifice of the Masse with other controuersies of religion but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouerment opened in the branches of Christes supreme soueraintie of Peters pretended the Popes vsurped the Princes lawfull Supremacie Penned by Iohn Rainoldes according to the notes set downe in writing by them both perused by Iohn Hart and after things supplied altered as he thought good allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them Whereto is annexed a Treatise intitled SIX CONCLVSIONS TOVCHING THE HOLIE SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH writen by Iohn Rainoldes With a defense of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein 1. Ioh. 4.1 Deerely beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they be of God for many false Prophets are gone out into the world Londini impensis Geor. Bishop 1584 TO THE RIGHT Honorable the Lord Robert Dudley Earle of Leicester one of her Maiesties priuie Councell and Chauncellour of the Vniuersitie of Oxford grace and peace be multiplied THe beginning of Schooles and Vniuersities right Honorable in the Church of God doth shew that they were planted to bee nurseries of Prophets who being instructed in the truth of his word might deliuer it to men and lighten as starres the darkenesse of the world with the beames of it But it hath come to passe by deuises of the dragon whose taile drew the third part of the starres of heauen cast them to the earth that they haue bene turned into seminaries of false Prophets to maintaine errours and the power of darkenesse against the light and truth of Christ. The primitiue Church had experience hereof in them of the Synagogue of Libertines and Cyrenians who disputed with Steuen A lesson for the faithfull in the ages to folow that they should not thinke it strange or be dismayed if Schooles Vniuersities of men professing wisedome were possessed of folie and sought to peruert the straight wayes of the Lord. The consideration whereof as it was needefull for our predecessours when Rabbines of the Iewes Philosophers of the HeatheÌ„s Sorbonists amoÌ„g Christians being seduced themselues seduced others so haue the Seminaries of our English students erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rhemes made it needeful also for vs at this day The more how much the nerer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines Cyrenians For as they defended the Iewish opinions receiued by tradition from their Fathers so do the Seminaries the Popish superstitions As they did pretend the care of religion of Moses and God the law the Temple so do the Seminaries of the Catholike faith the Scriptures and the Church As the meanes they vsed were sclanders of Steuen that he spake blasphemous wordes against the holy place and the law so do the Seminaries charge vs with reuolting from the holy Church and corrupting the Scriptures I am not worthie to be compared with the least of the seruants of God who liued at that time in which he powred the giftes of his holy spirit from heauen so aboundantly Howbeit as it pleased him to rayse Steuen to dispute with some of the Iewish Synagogue so hath he vouchsafed me of this fauour that I should be called to conferre with certaine of the Popish Seminaries Of whom one contented to proceede farther therin then the rest by writing not by word onely hath giuen occasion ofthis which here I publish Wherein how indifferently he hath bene dealt with himselfe hath declared My conscience for mine owne part beareth me witnesse that I haue endeuored to defend the cause of the same truth with the same purpose by the same principles grouÌ„ds that SteueÌ„ did Wishing from my hart if so it please God that it may preuaile more with English Papists then Steuens speech did with the Iewish Priests But ready by his grace to endure their spite ifthey hate me for telling them the truth as the Iewes did him Now sith Luke who penned the story of Steuen sent it to Theophilus most noble Theophilus I haue bene the bolder to present my conference vnto you right Honorable aduanced in state to be of the most noble in minde a Theophilus and louer of the truth Your benefites both publikely to our Vniuersitie in maintenance of our priuileges priuately to me ward a member thereof haue bound me to offer this testificatâ—on of a thankefull minde And sith it hath bene I know a greefe vnto you that the Popish Synagogue hath drawne proselytes thence I thought it most meete that the labours spent with one so withdrawne and printed to reclaime them who are gon if may bee or at least to stay them who are not gon should bring him the salue whom the sore had touched neerest Which moueth me withall to beseech your Honour that as you haue begoon so you will go forward in being carefull for our nurserie that they who haue the charge of husbanding it may fense it and dresse it faithfully and wisely that neither the wild boare of the forest nor other vermin may anoy it that the fruites of the trees therof may serue for meate the leaues for medicine through waters running out of the sanctuarie and the tree of life may grow in the middest of it as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leaue a most worthie monument of a noble Theophilus the reward whereof shall folow from God who will render to euery man according to his workes the remeÌ„brance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth ofEngland to your eternall praise throughout all posteritie The Lord of his mercie blesse you with continuall increase of the graces of his holy spirite specially of that which hath the promise of this life and of the life to come to your endlesse comfort through Iesu Christ the Lord of life At London the eighteenth of Iuly 1584. Your Honours in Christ at commaundement Iohn Rainoldes Iohn Hart to the indifferent Reader BEhold gentle Reader the conference which thou hast so long looked for betweene M. Rainoldes and me at length ended as also it had beene more then twelue monethes since had not my selfe hindred the coÌ„ming of it foorth when it was nigh readie to be deliuered to the Printer For it is now aboue two yeares ago that the right honorable Syr Francis Walsingham as he had shewed me great fauour from the time that I was apprehended in graunting me libertie of conference at home first in mine owne countrie and afterwarde in prison so when the sentence of death was past vpon me hee ceased not still to offer me the
body and he alone performeth the dutie of an head vnto it by giuing it power of life of feeling of mouing and him hath God appointed to be the head to the Church and by him all the body furnished and knit togither by iointes and bandes encreaseth with the encreasing of God Hart. We graunt that Christ is properly the head of the church the principall and quickning head But this head is imperiall so to terme him and inuisible The Pope is a visible and ministeriall head yet in truth a head also For of the head there are two dueties the one to bee the fountaine out of the which there floweth life into the rest of the body the other to direct by his rule and power the outward functions of the body The former duety doth agree to God alone and Christ. The later to the seruice and ministery of men too Rainoldes This your answere of two heades doth stand with more reason then his who said that Christ and Christes vicar Peter and Peters successor the Pope are all but one head of the church Howbeit so to make a twofold head as you do by the variety of two dueties it is not to diuide but to rent a sunder the dueties of the head and to make the Pope a head imperiall rather then a ministeriall For by rule and power to direct either the inward or outward functions of the bodie is the chiefe and proper function of the head agréeing to that head alone that giueth power of life and féeling and mouing to the body Wherefore sith Christ hauing bound him selfe by his promise to be with vs vntill the end of the world doth giue this power vnto his church by the effectuall working of his holy spirite which doth quicken both the whole and euery member of his body they who do diuide the preeminence of this duety betwéene him and the Pope allotting to him the inward to the Pope the outward functions to be directed deserue to be attainted of treason against the Lord. For séeing that to exercise this rule and dominion is a prerogatiue royall and proper to the king of kings to giue it either in whole or in part to any subiect can not be a lesser offence then hie treason Hart. If you account this to be treason against the Lord and do attaint vs of it You must attaint him selfe of it who by his word hath brought vs to it For S. Paule comparing the church vnto a body to shew the sundry giftes of Christians and in their sundry giftes their seuerall dueties by the similitude of members doth mention a head amongst them The eâ—e cannot say vnto the hand I haue no neede of thee nor the head to the feete I haue no neede of you Here the name of head must by al likelyhood bee meant of the Pastor in respect of the flock But it cannot be meant of Christ. For he may say to vs I haue no neede of you and so he willeth vs also when we shal haue done all things that are coÌ„manded vs to say we are vnprofitable seruants It must be meant therefore of Peter in respect of the rest of the Apostles and by consequent of the Pope in respect of all Bishops Rainoldes If Paule had so meant it either of Peter or of the Pope he had a tongue of the learned he could easily haue so expounded it But in the applying of his similitude to his purpose he sheweth that he meant by the name of head them who had the greatest graces of Gods spirite by feete hands and eies them who not so great though greater some then other Hart. Them who had the greatest Nay the name of head doth shew it must be one and that one visible head which wée call a ministeriall head vnder Christ proportionable to the body of Christ I meane the Church Of the which visible and ministeriall head those wordes of S. Paule may bee truely verified The head cannot say to the feete I haue no neede of you Rainoldes Indeede if the Pope be signified by the head those words will fitte him well For Cardinall Poole discoursing on the same reason of the Popes supremacie doth make as him the head so kings to be the féete And it is true the Pope can not say to kings I haue no neede of you It would bée hard going for him if they were not But if because Saint Paule doth in that similitude mention a head therefore there must be one visible head proportionable to the body of Christ that is the Church then because S. Paule doth mention the féete there must bee néedes also two visible féete by the like proportion Now I would gladly know of you Maister Hart which you will make the two féete of your church The Emperour I trow must be the right foote The left who The king of Spaine What shall the French king do then It is well that the king of Scots is no member of it nor the king of Denmarke Marry we had newes of the king of Swethland that Iesuits had conuerted him Shal he be the left foote Or shall the king of Poleland set in a foote for it Or is the king of Boheme nearer it There is a king of Bungo too who is reported to protect your religion in his countries and likewise the Great Turke other princes of Mahomets sect they may be féete in time also But how many féete may this body haue May it haue sixe seauen eight may it haue twentie visible féete and may it not haue ten not foure not two may it haue but one visible head Hart. Cardinall Pole compareth kinges vnto féete not as though they were the lowest partes of the church for hée counteth them as speciall members though not heads but because the church in the course of her growth was last of all increased with them as with féete and so did make an end of growing Rainoldes Then in Saint Paules time the church had no féete but a head without them And what doth he meane to saye that the head could not speake to the feete when it had no féete to speake too Hart. Yes it had féete then but of an other sort For they who were of lower degrees and meaner giftes in the church of Christ are resembled to féete in comparison of others who were in those respects as hands and eies aboue them Rainoldes And do you thinke the church had but two such féete Or had it many hundreds For christians were growne long before to thousands and it is not likely the most of them were eyes and hands Hart. It had no doubt many But you must not racke the members of similitudes beyond the principall pointes whereto they are applied and meant For els you might infer too that the church must haue but two eies and two hands because a mans body to which S. Paule resembleth the church hath no more Rainoldes As you say Yet
this is the mould of your owne reason wherein you cast the church to haue one visible head proportionable to the body A fansy more proportionable to the limmes of Popery then to Saint Paules doctrine touching the body of Christ. For his drift and purpose therein is to shew that as a mans body is made of sundry members which are not all as excellent one as an other the hand as the head the foote as the hand yet they are ioined togither to care one for an other all to maintaine the bodie so the bodie of Christ that is to say the church consisteth of sundry Christians as members some of greater gifts and callings then some the Apostles then that teachers the teachers then the helpers yet al ioyned together to loue and serue one an other and kéepe the church in vnitie wherby it is manifest first that in naming the head he considereth it not as a head properly but onely as a principall member For so he applieth it naming all Christians members and calling them the bodie of Christ he putteth Christ to be the head Next that by the name of head so considered hée meaneth no one man but all the Apostles as them who were indued with the chéefest gifts and placed in the highest function UUherefore if that word be strained to the vttermost as far as by the text it may the proofe that it yeldeth will argue a preeminence of the Apostles in generall ouer the inferiour members of the church but no power of Peter ouer the rest of the Apostles much lesse of the Pope ouer his fellow-bishops Hart. Yet this it doth proue that the name of head is not so giuen vnto Christ but that it may be giuen vnto a mortall man also Not as a head properly you say but as a principall member And what said I els For I graunted that Christ is properly the head of the church the Pope improperly Yet you reproued me for it Rainoldes I reproued you not because you gaue the title of head vnto the Pope for hee should be a pastour of the church of Rome and pastours for their giftes aboue the members of their churches ought to be like heads though many of them be tailes as the prophet calleth them but because you named him head of the whole church and that in such sort as it is due to none but Christ. For though you graunted Christ to be the quickening head that is to say the fountaine whence there floweth life into the rest of the bodie yet you gaue the Pope this soueraintie of headship that he should direct by his rule and power the outward functions of the bodie Wherein as of the one side you debase the worthinesse of his gifts who giueth vs Pastors and Teachers in that you doe appoint them to guide onely the outward functions of his bodie whereas he hath giuen them to the ful perfiting of his Saintes so of the other side you detract somewhat from the soueraintie of Christ when you giue his seruants dominion to guide his church by rule and power whereas they are ordeined to the worke of the ministery Wherfore howsoeuer you alay the title which you giue the Pope and say you call him head not properly but improperly a ministeriall head yet you doe imply that in this improperly which can agrée to none but him that properly is a head a head that doeth quicken guide and moue the bodie Euen as in your Canon lawe it is said of Peter The Lord did commit the charge of preaching the truth vnto him principally to the intent that from him as it were from a certaine head he might powre abroad his gifts as it were into all the bodie Hart. These wordes that you reproue in the Canon lawe are the wordes of a man of singular wit and iudgement famous both for holinesse and learning Saint Leo an auncient father who did flourish aboue a thousand yeares ago Rainoldes They aâ—e the wordes I grant of an auncient a wittie a learned holie man but a man and that is more a Bishop of Rome Now men euen the holiest while they liue in the flesh haue some contagion of the flesh and learning may puffe vp as it did the Corinthians and the best wittes are soonest tainted with ambition yea Iames and Iohn the sonnes of thunder desired superioritie and Rome a great Citie did nourish great statelinesse and that euen in the Bishops of that Citie before Leo. So they louing preeminence as Diotrephes did tooke all occasions to get it and sought some colours to mainteine it Wherefore as one in Tully said to Hortensius when he immoderately praysed eloquence that hee would haue lift her vp into heauen that himselfe might haue gone vp with her as hauing greatest right vnto her so many Bishops of Rome and Leo not the least of them did lift vp Saint Peter with prayses to the skye that themselues might rise vp with him as being forsooth his heires The Epistles and Sermons of Leo haue manifest markes of this affection as to giue a taste of them The Lord did take Peter into the feloship of the indiuisible vnitie and Wee acknowledge the most singular care of the most blessed Peter for vs all in this that God hath loosed the deceites of all slaunderers and My writings be strengthened by the merite and authoritie of my Lorde most blessed Peter the Apostle and Peter hauing confirmed the iudgement of his See in decision of faith hath not suffered any thing amisse to be seene about any of your persons who haue labored with vs for the Catholike faith and We beseech you and aduise you to keepe the thinges decreed of vs through the inspiration of God the Apostle most blessed Peter If any thing be well done or decreed of vs if any thing bee obtained of Gods mercy by daily praiers it is to be ascribed to S. Peters workes and merites whose power doth liue and authoritie excell in his owne See and He was so plentifully watred of the fountaine of all graces that whereas he receiued many things alone yet nothing passeth ouer to any man but by him To be short Leo by his exaÌ„ple his successors after him are so full of such spéeches that in the common phrase of themselues and their Secretaries all thinges pertaining to the Popes were growne to be S. Peters their prerogatiue S. Peters right their dignitie Saint Peters honour their statelinesse S. Peters reuerence subiection to them subiection to S. Peter A message from them an embassage from S. Peter Things done in their presence done in S. Peters presence Landes and possessions giuen them giuen to S. Peter And when they would haue kingdomes Princes must get them for S. Peter Their territories and Lordships S.
Peters patrimonie Their vsurpations tyrannicall S. Peters royalties Their good will His fauour Their communion His peace Their indignation His curse Their signet His ring Their closet His See Their Citie His borough Their poll mony euen Peter pence too Yea it may be that shortly they will take vp Peter for a surname as the Romane Emperours did the name of Caesar. For a famous Lawier Patrone of the Papacy saith that the Popes may al be called Peters And our countriman who was sent to display the Popes banner chalenge highest honour for him doth name him the Bishop of the first See that is to say Peter And Cardinal Hosius one of the Popes lieutenants in his Councell of Trent doth write that there is onely one vniuersall patriarke Who Peter of Rome and that Peter of Rome did send his messengers vnto English French Dutch and other nations to call them to the Councell of Trent Not Peter of Bethsaida but Peter of Rome did it Hart. These thinges are small the most of them and vsed to encrease a reuerend estimation and opinion of that Sée to the which our Sauior committed the principalitie and gouernment of his church As for the pointes that séeme greater in the words of Leo they may be defended For where he saieth that Christ tooke Peter into the fellowship of the indiuisible vnitie hée might meane vnitie in will not in substance as Christ doth pray for his disciples Holy father keepe them in thy name that they may be one as we are Where he doth honour Peter with the title of my Lord it is a common title and giuen men of state both spirituall and temporall yea Mary Magdalen called him Lord the word in Latin is the same whom shée supposed to be a gardiner The like might be said for the defense of the rest with as great probabilitie and perhaps greater then you haue to mislike them Rainoldes The smaller thinges which you call are some of them small I graunt but like small holes in ships at the which a great deale of water wil come in inough to drowne the shippe if they be left open as long as these haue beene in the shippe of the church They had encreased such an opinion of the Pope of Rome Saint Peters See as they tearmed it that although hee practised not a principalitie geuē him by Christ but an outragious tiranny vsurped by him selfe ouer Kings and Nations yet neither kings nor Nations almost durst speake against him at the least resiste him For if they did offend the Pope they thought they did offende S. Peter Now of S. Peter they were taught that he is porter of heauen gates They feared the porter would let none in sauing the Pope his vicars frends So to get eternal life they serued and pleased and féeed the Pope least that if he shoulde frowne vpon them Saint Peters fauour should be lost UUherfore how small soeuer those things of Peter séeme in trifling kindes of common spéeches they brought no small aduantage to Peter of Romes Court and wealth into his Treasurie It is recorded of King Oswy in our English Story that when vpon a controuersy about the celebrating of Easter there was a Synode assembled and the one part alleadged that they followed the East Churches which had receiued their rite of Iohn the Euangelist the Disciple whom Christ loued the other part replyed that they followed the Church of Rome which had receiued theirs of Peter to whom Christ gaue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the King tooke vp the matter and iudged with the Church of Rome For I tell you quoth he that Peter is the porter whom I wil not gainesay nay I wil obey his orders in all respectes as farre as I skill and can leaste when I come to the doores of the kingdome of heauen there be none to open if hee be displeased who doth keepe the keyes This grosse imagination of the keyes and porter and corrupt opinion of power to shut and open committed vnto Peter only which the good king conceyued of simplicitie his Cleargie should haue taught him better but they did all agrée vnto it and their successors praise King Oswy the Captaines of the Church of Rome perceyuing it to be commodious for the aduauncement of their kingdome and conquering of all the earth haue nourished very cunningly by their lessons their titles their armes their ensignes their pictures and other legions of policies all in S. Peters name And on the credite of S. Peter they haue pronounced that all ordinances of their See must be receiued euen as if Peter had confirmed them They haue taughte that their Church persisteth pure from all error by the grace and helpe of Peter They haue decreed that although it lay a yoake almost intolerable on vs yet we must beare it patiently in the remembrance of S. Peter They haue set abroach in the donation of Constantine that he gaue them his owne crowne of golde most pure and pretious stones to weare in honor of S. Peter and that hee held the bridle and stirrope of the Popes horse in reuerence of S. Peter They haue made the Emperour as the Popes vasall to become S. Peters knight and take his oath vnto S. Peter that hee will restore S. Peters lande vnto the Pope if he get any of it and wil helpe the Pope to defende S. Peters land They haue brought Archbishops to thinke their power is nothing vnlesse the Pope do send them from S. Peters body a pall which hath the fulnesse of the pontifical duetie Bishops they haue bound to promise by their oath allegiance and fealtie to Saint Peter the Romane Church and their Lord the Pope Yea from Bishops they haue brought the oath vnto them who receyue dignities And that which passeth all the rest whereas the forme of the oath in the Canon Law doth bynde them to defend regulas sanctorum patrum the rules of the holy fathers the Pope hath heretofore and now doth put in stéed thereof regalia sancti Petri the roialties of S. Peter Such praies your Eagles take though you do count them flyes But let them be flyes or fowles I wil not striue Onelie this I say let the wise consider it and marke the degrées of encrease in the Papacie and they shal perceiue in this what shall I call it of Saint Peters name that although it were not any of the greatest it was one of the finest trickes of spiritual coosinage that hath enriched the Pope and set the Church of Rome so hie Now to come from these lesser vnto the greater pointes in Leo I know if a man list to be contentious it is an easie matter to say somewhat probably for the defense of his words Yea though hee had named
Peter not only my Lord but as Thomas did our Sauiour My Lord my God It is a desperate cause that wil admit no colour The Stewes of Rome haue found patrones and that which is worse then Stewes The heathens called Domitian Our Lord God the Emperor A Canoniste saith of the Pope Our Lord God the Pope Blasphemous spéeches both yet a quareller might alleadge in defense of them I haue sayde ye are Gods But the very heathens by the light of nature mislyked the one as insolent neither haue I read any Papiste no nor Iesuite that durst defend the other It was a common practise amongst the young students of our Uniuersities in the time of the Dunses and is yet amongst too many whom spottes of Dunsery haue stayned that if in disputation they were brought to an inconuenience were it neuer so absurd they would haue a distinction though voyde of braine and sense yet a distinction to mainteyne it If a man wil be peruerse it is no mastery to doe it But as a wise and learned man doth say of them that they are base wits which are so affected whereas ingenuous mindes natures wel geuen wil rather seeke howe true that is which they holde then how they may defend it making greater price of veritie then victorie so I may say yea much more in matters of religion of faith of life eternall a Christian witte and godly minde will search and weigh rather what should be saide truely then what may be said probably or colourably at the lest And I wish if it had béene the good will of God master Campian had had the grace in the Tower-conference to haue aimed at this marke rather in sinceritie to haue sought the truth then with shiftes and cauilles the mayntenance of his cause and credit But though he were froward and did shut his eyes against the beams of the light yet doe you not so for Gods sake master Hart in this conference of ours Be content to open your minde to hys grace who standeth at the dore knocketh and hearken to his voice while it is to day Beware of their example who could not beleeue or if they did beleeue durst not confes Christ because they loued the praise of men more then the praise of God and hunted after honor one of another not seking for that honor which commeth from the Lord alone Deny your selfe and your frends and all fleshly respectes geue the glory to the Highest Hart. I neither séeke for shiftes to darken the trueth nor loue the praise of men more then the praise of God It were a madnesse for a man to aduenture his life as we doe you see for the maintenance of error or of his own credit As for M. Campian I thinke of him as of my selfe I heard the disputations wherein he answered them who came to reason with him and I perceyued nothing in any of his answeres but synceritie and trueth Rainoldes My selfe was not present at the disputations but I haue read them written and that least you suspect the wryter as partiall by a fauourer of yours who was present as he saith at the whole action And I doe affyrme it in singlenesse of heart as before the Lord neither doe I doubt but al who haue the wisdome to discerne spirites wil see the same if they peruse them he sought in such sort to maintaine the credite of his cause or person as though he had set nothing more before his eyes then to perswade his proselytes that nothing could bee brought against him but he would shew it made for him I would not say so much vnlesse I knew it by his fruites For to passe ouer his often glosing against the text and facing out of places which pressed him most forcibly thinges alleadged out of the Councels of the Fathers of others which by the iudgementes of your own doctors haue that sense wherin we cyte them he by shifts and cauilles would turne their neckes cleane about and wreste them vnto his side which argued more witte then trueth and sophistrie then sinceritie But to leaue him to the Lords iudgemēt and come vnto your selfe you neither séeke for shiftes you say to darken the trueth nor loue the praise of men more then the praise of God I pray God your déedes be not as plaine to prooue you do it as the reason which you adde to proue you do it not is weake For what although it were a madnesse to doe it Many things are done which madde men scarce would doe and yet they that doe them doe think themselues well in their wittes as the Donatistes did who aduentured their liues in most desperate maner for the defence of their error and maintenance of theyr credite yea they offred themselues to the sword the fire the water séeking for death as for a treasure that they might die they thought Martyrs But whether you doe set the praise of men at that price I leaue it to your owne conscience That you seeke for shiftes the thing it self doth crie For your very answere in the defense of Leo touching vnitie of will not vnitie of substance on these words of his that Christ receiued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnity is a shifte to shield him from a iust reproofe Let his owne Discourse speake and it wil graunt it For hauing saide before that Christ did place Peter as it were a certaine head to poure his giftes from him as it were into all the body to this poynt he knitteth these words by way of proofe So that if the proofe haue any kin with the thing proued the words must néedes import some preeminence in Peter aboue all the rest of the Disciples of Christ. But vnitie of wil wherein Christ doth pray that his Disciples may be one as he is one with his Father is common vnto all not peculiar to Peter as Christ himselfe doth shewe That plaister then of yours hath no vertue in it to salue the sore of Leo. Neither can you cure it indéed with any other For the vnitie which the Scriptures doe note in God and vs is of three sortes the first of persons in one nature the second of natures in one person the third of sundrie natures and persons in one qualitie In the first is One God In the second is One Christ In the third is One church The Lord receiued not Peter into the first vnitie wherein the father the sonne the holy Ghost are one God Not into the second wherein he himselfe consisting of two natures God and man is one Christ. Into the third wherein the Churche is one with Christ her head and the Churches members are one amōgst them selues he did receaue Peter but in societie with his brethren not without them in singularitie The multitude of the belieuers were of one hart
and of one soule They all are one body sanctified by one spirit through the Sacrament of one baptisme knit to Christ by one faith to themselues in one loue to serue togither one Lord in one hope and expectation of one eternall blisse and glory So that of this vnitie whereof Peters state and nature is capable apply which you list vnto the wordes of Leo either vnitie of will as you seeme to do or vnity of grace as others answere for it or vnitie of glory which Christ did pray for also and some will like that better none of these doe reach vnto that maiestie which Leos wordes aspire to by giuing him the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie Yet God forbid that any man should suspect of him that he meant vnitie either of nature with God or of person with Christ. He hath deserued better then to be thought so euill off But that which in trueth may be said for him is that his meaning was as other-where him selfe doth open it that Christ did impart his name of rocke and foundation of the church to Peter Now some mist of fansie daisled his eyes or els he would neuer haue saide thereupon that Christ receyued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie and that in such preeminence as he receyued none but him chiefly sith hée imparted his greater names and titles of Iesus of Christ of the light of the world one of them to some the rest to all his seruants neither did he giue his name of rocke to Peter or of foundation to Peter onely as shall appeare after But if yet you see not that Leo did outreach in making Peter as it were a felow-head a partie-rocke and the halfe-foundation of the Church with Christ behold a farther felowship wherein he ioyneth Peter as mate and partner with God a felowship of power God hath giuen to Peter a great and a wonderfull felowship of his power and if he would haue any thing to be common vnto other princes with him he neuer gaue but by him whatsoeuer he gaue to others Out of all controuersie these wordes do lift vp Peter vnto the felowship of that glory of which God is so iealous that he hath protested he will not giue it to any other he hath giuen it to Christ who is one with himselfe God of God light of light if any man presume to ioyne a mortall creature whomsoeuer as companion vnto Christ in it he robbeth Christ of his honor of the onely mediator betwéene God and man And what doth he els who saith as Leo doth that S. Peters care shineth ouer Bishops in that their slaunderers are defaced that Peters merit and autoritie doth strengthen the writings of his seruant against heretikes that Peter doth not suffer their persons to be stained who labour for the catholike faith that the Popes decrees are made by the inspiration of God and S. Peter that it must be imputed vnto S. Peters workes and merits if any thing be gotten of God by dayly prayers that nothing passeth ouer vnto the chiefest of the Church no not vnto any man from God but by S. Peter Let euery Christian hart whome the zeale of God hath giuen any warmth vnto and his Spirit wisedome be iudge betwéene you and vs whether that to yeald such power such authoritie such souerainetie and rule of the Church of Christ to any Saint in heauen be not an empairing of the maiestie dominion and soueraine authoritie of the king of Saints the holy one of Israel It gréeueth me to speake so much against Leo whose learning I doe loue and reuerence his auncient yeares But the Auncient of dayes is more auncient then he must be had in greater reuerence who taught young Elihu to reproue his auncients euen holy Iob amongst them and to say of them I will not accept the person of any neither will I giue titles vnto man for I may not giue titles If I should doe it a litle he that made me would take mee away UUherefore I doe fréely without curtesie of titles and accepting of persons professe that I mislike those hawtie spéeches in Leo and I thinke that the mysterie of iniquitie so wrought through his ambitious aduancing Peter that of the egges which he cherished two of the most venemous cokcatrices were bred that euer poysoned the church of Christ the one the Popes supremacie vsurping Princely power ouer the church and common-weale with breach of faith to God and man the other the worshipping of Saintes wherin that honour is giuen to creatures which ought to be giuen to the Creator onely One example may shew them both euen Hildebrand called Gregorie the seuenth in his Popedome who depriuing Henrie the Emperour of his Empire and discharging his subiects of their othe of allegiance pronounced sentence with such an inuocation of Peter as a true Christian would trēble to haue heard vsed to any but to God Incline thine eares ô blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles heare me thy seruant whom thou hast brought vp from mine infancy and hast preserued to this day from the handes of the vnrighteous who hate and vexe me for my fayth in thee Thou canst beare me witnesse best and the holy mother of Christ and thy brother Paule partaker with thee of martyrdome that I haue vndertaken the gouernmēt of the Papacie vnwillingly Not that I thought it robbery to clime into thy See lawfully but I had rather liue in pilgrimage thē occupie thy roome for fame and glorie only I doe confesse and good cause why that the charge of the Christiā people was committed and the power of binding loosing granted vnto me not through my desertes but by thy grace Trusting therefore on this assuraunce for the honour and sauegard of thy holy church in the name of God almightie the father the sonne and the holy Ghost I throwe downe King Henry the sonne of Henry sometime Emperour who hath laide handes too boldly and rashly vpon thy church from his imperiall and kingly gouernment and I absolue al Christians subiect to the Empire frō that othe by the which they are wont to beare faith alleagiance vnto true Kings Doe you sée to what iniquitie their pride abusing Peters name and claiming al by him hath puffed them vp To what vsurping ouer Emperours To what dishonouring of the Almightie But of this we shall haue fitter occasion to conferre when we come to the question of the worship of Saintes For the other to returne to the point which we haue in hand the name of head in that sense as it is made a conduit of the giftes of God to powre them abroad into al the body is onely due and proper vnto the Mediatour betwéene God man the Apostle of our profession our Sauiour Iesus Christ. When the right of this title
expounde the Latin according to the Hebrue but to alaye the Hebrue according to the Latine Wherefore in that I saide that if we should goe from your authenticall Latin to the originall textes it would be misliked of I doo you no iniurie Yet I mislike it not in your plea for Peter that you take aduantage not of the originall but of a translation nay I like it well Though I like not that which you adde to proue it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Greeke toong dooth signifie a rocke as Cephas in the Syriake and so the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 haue one meaning For they haue one meaning not because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie a rocke as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie a stone as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sometimes signifieth a stone your owne learned linguists as you call them note and examples thereof are rife But that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any where signifieth a rocke neither doo they shew nor haue other skilfuâ—l of that toong obserued You say that it is so in the Athenian language but you bring no Athenian nor any Grecian else to witnesse it And the French toong which foloweth the Gréeke as in many other words so in this hath the same word you know for a stone and for the name of Peter Wherein there is a print of the true originall meaning of that name in the Gréeke toong But Christ did call him Cephas in the Syriake toong and Cephas you say doth signifie a rocke as Fabricius sheweth But Fabricius sheweth further that Cephas doth signifie a stone also And though he or rather the Iewe whom he citeth reporteth their saying who expounde the name as taken from that worde in signification of a rocke yet hauing mentioned the other of a stone he saith therevpon that so his name is Peter in the Romane toong and in the Italian a stone is called pereda Whereunto I might adde that an other learned writer of the Iewes and auncienter then he doeth likewise say as opening the sense of Peters name that he is called stone But that Christ did meane a stone not a rocke in naming him Cephas your stoutest champion D. Sanders may serue in stéed of many witnesses For he wanting no will to go as far as the boldest and hauing many yeares aduised of the matter durst say no more for Cephas but that it signifieth a stone at the most a great stone euen petra it selfe he doeth expound in this maner Super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam Thou shalt bee the first stone next me of that church which I will build on earth In the which iudgement he doeth deserue the greater credite at your handes because he was contented to hazard his life with the Pope against his Prince in that holy quarell and hauing spent his chiefest studie in the point he had before times expounded it a rocke the which exposition so fit for the Papacy he would haue neuer left had not the truth enforced him to retire from it A thing so much the likelier because when hee laboured first to infect men with the Popes supremacie by the name of rocke and therfore both in the title and course of all his booke did sound the rocke of the church euen then he did expound Cephas and Peter doubtfully a rocke or a stone and yelding the reason why Christ did name him so he mentioned a stone onely because what place a stone hath in holding vp the house which is built vpon it the same should Peter haue in vpholding the frame of Christes militant church Wherefore you must let go your holde of the rocke whereon D. Stapleton doth beast your house is built and be content to lay a stone in stéed of it Let our Sauiour Christ alone be the rocke If you dash your selfe against him therein he will breake you in péeces Hart. It is a disputable point You sée that learned men are of sundrie iudgements in expounding of it some thinking it betokeneth a stone some a rocke Wherefore you can not force me to take the one and leaue the other Rainoldes Not by mens wordes but by the word of God I can For Christ in the Syriake toong did name him Cephas and Cephas in the Gréeke is expounded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in English signifieth a stone And sure you had done better if as the Gréeke text hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Syriake translation Cephas Cephas so you had made it in English stone and stone For Peter and peter doth not expresse the force of the Syriake word Rocke and rocke is strong but the text doth not beare it Stone and stone is fit had you not thought it too slender Now sith you doo presse the Syriake translation to shew thereby the meaning of the Latin as you say you must giue me leaue to tell you that the wordes should be rather Englished after the Syriake thus Thou art stone and vpon this stone will I build my church Hart. Rocke or stone if I should giue you leaue to choose whither of them you list what gaine you thereby Rainoldes The truth which I deale for shall gaine thus much by it that although you construe those words that Christ would build his church vpon Peter for your most aduantage euen as Sanders doth yet is it not proued thereby that Christ did promise him a supreme-headship ouer the Aposâ—les For the church of Christ which is the company of Gods elect and chosen isresembled in Scripture to a materiall temple such as was the temple which Salomon built So as that was called a house the house of prayer in like sort the church is called a house too but a spirituall house to distinguish it from that which house because it must be made of all the godly as it were of stones grounded on Christ by faith though the doctrine of the Apostles therefore Christ is called the chiefe corner stone in respect of the Iewes and Gentiles as of walls which are ioyned in him the foundation in respect of the whole house yea the foundation of foundation as the Prophet termeth him the twelue Apostles laid next vpon Christ are called twelue foundations the faithfull laide on them or rather after them on him are called stones not dead ones such as the temple had but liuing the working and framing of them to this purpose is called building and edifying which is done by preaching of the word of truth coupling them togither betwéene them selues and with Christ that they may grow to bee a holie temple in the Lord for God to dwell in by his spirite Wherefore if the wordes of Christ be
not begotten or borne Hart. Hée séemeth to haue meant it And Torrensis who gathered S. Austins Confession out of all his workes alleageth these places to proue that Christians ought to belieue manie things which haue come to vs from the Apostles themselues deliuered as it were by hand although they bee not written expresly in scriptures Rainoldes The Iesuit Torrensis dooth great wrong herein to the truth of God to S. Austins credit and to you who reade him And yet with such a sophisme in the word expresly that if it should be laid vnto his charge he would wash his handes of it as Pilate did of Christes blood For he alleageth those places of S. Austin thereby to proue Traditions as though we had receiued that doctrine touching God by tradition vnwritten not by the written word S. Austin no such matter But dealing with an Arian who required the verie word consubstantiall to be shewed in scripture doth tell him that the thing it selfe is there founde though not that word perhaps Wherevpon he presseth him in like sort with the word vnbegotten which the Arian hauing giuen to God the Father and defending it S. Austin replieth that as he had termed the Father vnbegotten well although the word not written so might the Sonne also be termed consubstantiall sith the scripture proueth the thing meant therby And as with this Arian so with their bishop Maximinus Who hauing himself termed God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne denied the holie Ghost to be equall to the Sonne because it is not written that he is worshipped To the which cauill of his S. Austin answereth that although it be not written in flat termes yet is it gathered by necessarie consequence of that which is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God the holy Ghost is God therefore to bee worshipped Thus S. Austins meaning was of these pointes that the scripture teacheth them Whereby you may perceiue the fraude of Torrensis Who saying that they are not expresly written in the scriptures left him selfe this refuge that hee might say they are not in expresse wordes though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures And yet by referring that title to traditions induceth his reader to thinke that they are taught by tradition not by scripture A doctrine which Arians will clappe their handes at that the Sonne of God is not by scripture of one substance with the Father But let it be far from you M. Hart to thinke so prophanely of the word of God And if you rest so much on Doctors of your owne side rest here on Thomas of Aquine rather who saith that concerning God wee must say nothing but that which is founde in the holie scripture either in words or in sense Which as he confirfirmeth by Denys and Damascen so was it the common iudgement of the Fathers of S. Austin chiefly as his bookes touching the Trinitie doo shew And in the conclusion thereof for euident proofe of that which you denied he giueth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set downe in scripture of the Trinitie Wherfore the scripture cōpriseth the rule of faith for that point And as for that point so for all the rest which in that very booke whereof we spake S. Austin noteth It remaineth therfore that S. Austin meant not by the authoritie of the church more then he signified by plainer places of the scriptures Hart. Yes his own words in that verie sentence doo yéeld sufficient proofe me thinkes that he did For if he signified by plainer places of the scriptures as much as he meant by the authoritie of the church then was it idle when he had named the one to adde the other to it chiefly in such sort as that is added by S. Austin For both the coniunction the places of scriptures and the authoritie of the church should import thinges different and I may say of wordes as the Philosopher saith of things That is done in vaine by more that may be done by fewer Rainoldes Nothing is done in vaine that is done to edifie The church might well be mentioned as an interpreter of the worde though it teach not any thing beside the word of God The people of Israel did beleeue the Lord and his seruaunt Moses yet Moses did nothing but that the Lorde commaunded him The wise man doth charge his sonne to hearken to the instruction of his father and forsake not the doctrine of his mother yet they both the father and mother teach one lesson the chiefest wisedome the feare of God The same is fulfilled in this Moses and the Lord or rather in this mother and our heauenly Father of whom it hath bene said well He cannot haue God to be his Father who hath not the church to be his mother For God hauing purposed to make vs his children and heires of life eternall as he prepared his word to be first the séede the immortall seed of which we are begotten a new afterward the milke the sincere milke whereby wee béeing borne grow so he ordeined the church by her ministerie to teach it as it were a mother first to conceaue and bring foorth the children afterward to nourish them as babes new borne with her milke Which appeareth as by others so chiefly by S. Paul who traueiled of them in childbirth whom he sought to conuert and when they were new borne he nourished them with milke to set before our eyes the duetie of the church and all the churches Ministers in bearing children vnto Christ. Now the milke which the church giueth to her children shée giueth it out of her brestes and her two brestes are the two testaments of the holie scriptures by S. Austins iudgement the old Testament and the new S. Austin therefore saying the rule of faith is receiued of the authoritie of the church meant not that the church should deliuer any thing but onely what shee draweth out of the holie scriptures Hart. Not for milke perhaps which babes are to sucke but for strong meate wherewith men are nourished For mothers féede not their children being growne with mylke out of theyr brestes Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures haue both milke for babes and strong meat for men milke in plainer thinges and easier to be vnderstood strong meate in harder and greater mysteries Yea where Christ said that euerye Scribe which is taught vnto the kingdome of heauen is lyke vnto an housholder who bringeth foorth out of his treasure thinges both newe and olde S. Austin iudgeth that hée meant by newe thinges and olde the olde and newe testament Wherefore sith euery pastor and teacher of the church is meant you graunt by this Scribe it foloweth by S. Austin that the meate which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the
stubble so will the point of truth rippe vp the bowels of their errours So the Arians when they brought broken sentences of scripture in shew resembling somewhat their blasphemous doctrine against the sonne of God but indeede vnlike it they were ouerthrowne through the conference of scriptures by the Nicen councell and godly pastors of the church So the Pelagians the enimies of grace vnder the name of nature when they trifled vainely to shift the scriptures off which make against the frée-will of man for Gods fauour they were put to flight with plainer places of the scriptures by the Councels of Carthage of Mileuis of Orenge and chiefely by S. Austin So hath God conâ—ounded others of that rable will no doubt their complices if with the sword of the spirite which is the word of God wee ioine the shield of faith to quench the fyry dartes of Satan The Familie of loue shall feele it in time the Father of the Familie feared it and therefore he warned his children to beware of them who beare this weapon and haue skill to handle it of scripture-learned men And you who lay the Families synne to our charge as though we did foster that venemous vipers brood do ioine your selues to them and march into the field with them and strengthen their handes against vs. Of you they haue learned to take vp the name of Scripturemen by way of scoffe and vse it as a contumelie You teach them that the diligent yea the most diligent coÌ„ference of scriptures is the path of heretikes to most damnable errours You perswade them that the fountaines of the Greeke and Hebrue text are neither pure nor greatly néedfull You tell them that to expound the scripture by scripture is good and it is fruitfull to confer places to obserue the wordes and circumstances of the text but there are manye daungers and difficulties in it the text is not alwaies knitte and coherent to it selfe the very order of speaking is oftentimes abrupt sometimes preposterous altogither there are sundry hyperbata and anantapodota in S. Paule one word yea in one sentence hath sundry significations places may seeme like one to an other that are vnlike and contrariwise and many mo such inconueniences enough to breake the hart of a weak Christian. In the which dealing you do band your selues with the ten spies who when they should haue encouraged the people of Israell to enter into the land of promise they tolde them that the land certainly is good and floweth with milke and hony but the people dwelling in it is strong and the cities walled exceeding great and the sonnes of Anak Giants be there The Amalekites dwel in the south couÌ„trie the Hitthites and Iebusites and Amorites dwell in the mountaines the Cananites dwell by the sea and by the coast of Iorden The Lord sware in his wrath both to these spies and to the people who beléeued them that they should not enter into his rest At you and your men I maruaile M. Hart that whose fact you folow you tremble not at their end As for vs although we were but two against your ten and all the people would rather beleeue you then vs yet we will follow them who were of an other spirite Caleb and Iosua and with them will wee say to the whole assembly of the children of God The land through the which we haue gone to search it is an excellent good land If the Lord take delight in vs he will bring vs into this land and giue it vs euen a land that floweth with milke and honie Onely rebell yee not against the Lorde neither feare yee the people of the land for they are bread for vs. In deede the holy scripture is bread for our soules and the word of God is the foode of life If the Lord take delight in vs he will bring vs vnto it and giue it vs. Let vs not rebell against him nor feare the hardnes of it We must search the scriptures and pray to him for wisedome and hee will open them to vs for he hath promised and make vs learned in them Hart. We acknowledge with you that the meanes you mention namely to search the scriptures and to pray to God for wisedome and knowledge are good and godlie meanes whereby we may the sooner come to vnderstand them or rather be prepared thereto But such as neuerthelesse are not still effectuall Rainoldes They are still effectuall if men pray as they should and search them as they ought in the spirit of fayth and modestie Hart. True in that measure which is fit for euerie mans vocation and duetie some to exhort and comfort priuately some publikely to teach the church But after you haue saide all that you can we shall neuer grow to any ende and issue if we folow this way For if you alleage the scripture against me and I against you if I expound it by conference of this place and you of that if in your opinion one sentence be plaine and in mine an other in mine our meaning right and in yours the contrarie what ende can our controuersies haue without a iudge And if you yéeld to a iudge who fitter for it then the Pope Rainoldes Who but Christ our Sauiour And they which vnder him haue it committed to them euen the Church of Christ Hart. The Church Nay you mentioned the godlie before and spake as if they should trie the truth from errour by conference of the scriptures Which is your right kinde of triall and iudgement But you are ashamed of it now belike as in truth you may be For you shall finde many taylers and coblers more godly then sundrie more learned then they Yet I trust you will not repaire for shreddes and cloutes to any shop of theirs Rainoldes Yet the shreddes and cloutes of taylors and coblers may haue greater knowledge perhaps and better iudgement of the sense of scriptures then the scarlet gownes of learneder men then they For the learned Pharisees who condemned the people as ignorant of the law did not iudge the doctrine of Christ to be true nay they reiected it as false with search and see But the men of Beroea some of whom by likelihood were taylers or coblers or at least common artificers as meane as they receiued it with all readinesse vpon the search of the scriptures beleeued it Howbeit when I mentioned that iudgement of the godlie I meant the godlie learned Wherefore you néeded not to speake of shreddes and cloutes but that you were loth perhaps to léese this iest Chiefly sith I shewed thereupon withall that for the triall of controuersies by scripture the toongs in which the scripture is written must be knowne namely Gréeke and Hebrue The which shreddes and cloutes neither many taylers and coblers with vs neither many Cardinalles and Popes with you
earthly not bodily but spirituall not temporall but eternall Their authoritie they receiued by the wordes of his commission But the discharge of the duetie required great treasures of the holie Ghost Whereof hée gaue them some then more in the fiery toonges from heauen more as the churches state required and these well occupied gained more with the increase whereof their abilitie still increased their authoritie not so which all was giuen them at once Hart. But a King for better triall of his Iustices may commit some lesser authoritie first vnto them and afterwarde greater Rainoldes So did Christ to his Apostles But hauing made triall of them in the lesser he called them by this commission to the greater nay to the greatest then which he had no greater for them Hart. Not within the limits perhaps of their commission yet he might enlarge them and giue them greater limits Rainoldes But Christ in this commission had giuen them authoritie through all his dominion not through a shire onely For he sent them to all nations Hart. And what if I grant that Christ in this commission gaue all that power to Peter which he had promised him was to giue vnto him Rainoldes If he gaue him all that power in this commission no part thereof remained to be giuen in any other If no part to be giuen then was there no further power giuen to him by those wordes of Christ Feede my lambes feede my sheepe If no further power were giuen him thereby the bulwarke of your Papacy is builded on a fansie Hart. Then belike our Sauiour spake to no purpose when he said to Peter Doost thou loue mee Feede my lambes Doost thou loue mee Feede my sheepe Rainoldes God forbid To great purpose though not to yours For he giueth him therein a commandement though not a commission As if the Quéenes Maiestie hauing made alreadie by letters of commission some Iustices in the North one perhaps amongst them of whose faithfull heart she were persuaded well yet that had shewed himselfe not of the trustiest in time of the rebellion shée should say vnto him to stirre in him a liuely regard of his duetie Do you loue vs Haue care of our poore subiectes Doo you loue vs Haue care of our good people Which charge and commaundement Christ might giue a great deale better to Peter then the Quéene to any Iustice in the North because shée knoweth not whither any new Bull be comming from Rome or new rebellion be toward But he knew that Peter should be in greater danger then he was when he fled and denied his Maister Whereof he forewarneth him straight vpon the giuing him of this commandement and that with earnest words of great asseueration as in a matter of weight telling him that he should dye a gréeuous death for his profession of the faith and féeding of the flocke of Christ. So that to arme him against that feare of the flesh which before had made him to betray his duetie when he had lesse cause to feare Christ hauing made the iron hot as it were by asking him Doost thou loue mee striketh it to make it a fit instrument to build with so commandeth Feede my flocke yea though the worke be painefull and will cost thée déere for it shall bring thée to thy death So he committeth not a new charge to Peter but willeth him to looke to that which he had committed and flée not from it for any danger As if a wise shipmaster séeing a daungerous storme at hand should command his mariners whom he had well deserued of that if they loue him they looke vnto their tackelings Hart. Well If it were perhaps not a commission but a commandement yet was it a commandement to discharge that duetie wherewith he was put in trust by commission Rainoldes I grant What inferre you Hart. Then Peter had commission to feede the lambes and sheepe of Christ. Rainoldes Who dooth deny it For he had the same commission from Christ that Christ from God his Father to preach the Gospell to the poore to heale the broken-hearted to preach deliuerance to the captiues and recouering of sight to the blind to set at libertie them that are bruised and preach the acceptable yeare of the Lord. Which is in other wordes to feede the lambes and sheepe of Christ. For Christ by a similitude is named the chiefe shepheard his church and chosen seruants a flocke of sheepe and lambes whereof he gaue a principall charge to his Apostles that they should féede it Wherefore the commandement giuen vnto Peter to feede his sheepe and lambes importeth the commission which before was giuen him when Christ sent him as God sent Christ. But in this commission the Apostles all were equall vnto Peter They were equall therefore to him in charge of feeding the sheepe and lambes of Christ. And so the second point which I had to proue the verie deaths-wound of your supremacy is proued Hart. Proued How proued Rainoldes As clearely as the Sunne dooth shine at noone day For to send the Apostles as God the Father sent Christ is to giue them charge to feede his sheepe and lambes But Christ sent the Apostles as God the Father sent him Therefore he gaue them charge to feede his sheepe lambes Now this is the greatest power that can be shewed was giuen Peter by Christ. Wherefore in the greatest power that Christ gaue him the rest of the Apostles all were his equals If you be loth herein to beleeue the Scripture yet beleeue the Pope and an ancient Pope vnlesse the Canon law lye The rest of the Apostles receiued honor and power in equall felowship with Peter Hart. It is true that the Apostles were equall to Peter but in respect of their Apostleship not of their Pastorall charge Rainoldes This answere of yours hath a distinction but not a difference It is the same fellow but in an other gowne whom a litle rather I shewed to be a bankrupt and now he commeth foorth againe in newe apparaile like an honest and welthy Citizen Hart Why say you so Rainoldes Because you did distinguish the Bishoply power of the Apostles from their power Apostolike as here with other wordes you doo their Apostleship from their Pastorall charge Whereas in déede the pastorall charge of the Apostles is nothing els but their Apostleship and hath no more difference then the other had For the name of Pastor is vsed in two senses a speciall and a generall In the speciall to note a kind of function distinct from the Apostles your Doctor graunteth it and so Apostles are not Pastors as when it is said some Apostles some Prophets some Euangelistes some Pastors and teachers In the general to signifie the cōmon charge of al such as do teach the word and féede the flocke of God in which respect Christ him selfe is called a Pastor Wherefore sith Apostles
this you say he raileth at the Fathers Of me who would kéepe it you say I cast colours What shall I do to please you Hart. You shall please me if you dissent not from them but onely in such thinges as be knowne truthes Which is another rule of ours if you remember it Rainoldes I remember it well and herein I haue kept it For it is a truth and a knowne truth that the Fathers write in fauour of the Saintes some thinges which ouerlash the truth if a man examine and trie them by the touch-stone Peter himselfe shall be the Saint in whose example I will shew it Hilarie vpon the wordes of Christ vnto Peter Get thee behinde me Satan thou art an offense to me saith it is not meete we should thinke that Christ did call Peter Satan but Christ said to him get thee behind me and no more the rest to the Deuill not to him Satan thou art an offense to me The same Hilarie almost but Ambrose quite cleane excuseth Peter from all fault in that he denied Christ nay Ambrose commendeth him Peter answered saith he I know not the man He well denied him a man whom he knewe to be God Clemens and Eusebius whom Oecumenius foloweth do write that that Peter whome Paule did withstand and reproue at Antioch was not Peter the Apostle but an other I know not who of the same name one of the seuentie disciples Wherefore sith it is known by the word of truth that Christ called Peter Satan that Peter denyed Christ that Paule withstood and reproued Peter and it may be knowne by the writtnges of the Fathers how they vary from this truth in fauour of S. Peter that by washing out the spottes which seeme to staine him his praise may be the more glorious I hope I might take it for a knowne truth that the Fathers write some thinges 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to praise the Saintes of God wherein if their wordes be sifted precisely they ouerlash the truth sometimes In saying whereof if you thinke I cast colours and vse wordes too smooth I can amend that faulte with speaking more roughly as Ierom doth who saith that the sense which Hilarie and Ambrose giue of Peters words I know not the man as though denying Christ he had denied him man because he knewe him God they gaue it of a reuerent affection to Peter but wise readers see howe friuolous it is if they so defend Peter that they make God a lyer For if Peter denied not then did the Lord lye who said Verely I say to thee this night before the cocke crow thou shalt denye me thrise Behold what he saith thou shalt denye me not the man Or if S. Ieroms words be too smooth also I can speake more roughly yet with Theophylact who saith that they who make that defense of Peter doo make a foolish defense Thus if you compare my words with Theophylacts Ieroms I vsed modestie if with that which other of the Fathers write I did it in a knowne truth when I dissented from Chrysostom Doo I please you now Hart. I wonder that you set your selfe against S. Chrysostome a Father so auncient so learned so godly so skilfull in the Scriptures Rainoldes Let me aske you a question What thinke you of Christ Was he alone frée from all spotte of sinne both original and actuall or was the blessed virgin frée from it also Hart. You know our minde thereof She was frée from it also Rainoldes S. Chrysostom saithe the contrary a Father so ancient so learned so godly so skilfull in the scriptures Yea and he groundeth therin vpon the scriptures which he doth not in yours of Peter Hart. But other of the Fathers say the same that wee say with whom we do dissent from Chrysostome Rainoldes If I shold aske what Fathers say it of actuall sin hard for you to name them As for originall your own Canus sheweth they all say the contrary But if many said it yet you may sée by this which I haue shewed of Chrysostom what brokeÌ„ réeds you leane on wheÌ„ you leane on such reasons Chrysostome doth say so therfore it is so And if other fathers be of as good credit to win you from others vnto a point of truth as to a point of error then wil you be as readie to leaue his opinion in this point of Peter as you haue bene to leaue it in that of the virgin For a number of Fathers eueÌ„ a whole Councell of Bishops of Africa togither with S Cyprian doo write that Peter did according to the lesâ—ons and preceptes of God in that he proposed vnto the disciples the ordeining of an Apostle in the roome of Iudas to the end they might deale by common aduise and voice therin Wherefore if you haue Fathers in such regard as you pretend and do rather follow the consent of many then the mind of one which is your owne rule in exposition of scriptures you must yéeld that Peter might not haue done that which Chrysostom saith he might vnlesse you will say that he might do that whereof he was commanded and taught the contrary by God But if this opinion be so rooted in you that reason cannot wéede it out wonder not at me who beside the scripture haue Fathers more then you haue and therefore by your iudgement the exposition of the Fathers Wonder at your selfe who hauing neither of them stand against them both Wonder at your Doctor who hauing vndertaken to proue the Supremacie by that which Peter did in the Actes of the Apostles telleth what he might haue done by Chrysostomes supposall Wonder at your Pope who building on the word not of God but of man and finding mans foundation ouer-weake too doth not practise that which Chrysostome commendeth in the fact of Peter but doth chalenge that which Chrysostome imagineth of the right of Peter Hart. If Peter would not vse his owne right of modestie his fact doth not bind the Pope his successor but that he may vse it Rainoldes That refuge will not serue vnlesse you proue two things whereof neither is true One that this soueraintie was the right of Peter an other that the Pope succeedeth him in all his right By the way what soeuer you déeme of his right you graunt that he doth not succéed him in modestie Hart. It is not expedient for him to doo in euery thing as Peter did But that he succeedeth Peter in all his right I will proue then when I haue proued Peters right Now that this soueraintie was the right of Peter and that he had as full power in the assemblies of the Apostles as the Prince hath in a Parlament or the Pope in a Councell S. Chrysostomes wordes were not all so pregnant vpon the first of the Actes as S. Ieroms are vpon the fiftéenth to proue it inuincibly
As for the later of calling him to account although your good wéening of the Pope persuadeth you that he would not thinke his state to be abased if the Cardinals should aske him why he dooth this or that yet they who knew him better a great deale then you and loued him so well that they woulde not belie him doo witnesse not onely by word but by writing that he will not bée dealt withall by his inferiours as Peter was by the Apostles I meane not your Canonists in whose glose it goeth for a famous rule that none may say vnto the Pope Syr why do you so But I meane the learnedst and best of your Diuines who setting the Church aboue the Pope in authoritie mislike that the Pope will not be subiect to the Councell Of whom to name one for many Iohn Ferus a Frier of S. Francis order but godlier then the common sort intreating in his Commentaries written on the Actes of the example of Peter how hée was required to render a reason of that which hee had done maketh this note vpon it Peter the Apostle and chiefe of the Apostles is constrained to giue an account to the Church neither dooth he disdaine it because he knew him selfe to be not a Lorde but a minister of the Church The Church is the Spouse of christ and ladie of the house Peter a seruant and minister Wherefore the Church may not onely exact an account of her ministers but also depose thē reiect them altogither if they be not fit So did they of old time very often in Councels But wicked Bishops now will not be reproued no not of the Church nor be ordered by it as though they were Lordes not ministers Therefore they are confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Doo you know what Bishops they be who refuse to bee subiect to the Church Who say they are aboue the Councell Who may iudge all and none may iudge them This Preacher a Preacher of your own not ours dooth call them wicked Bishops The Lord of his mercy make his wordes a prophecy that those wicked Bishops may be confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Hart. You bring me wordes of Ferus which were not his perhaps but thrust into his commentaries before they came vnto the print by some malitious heretike For Sixtus Senensis saith that there are witnesses of very good credit who auouch that the commentaries of Ferus vpon Matthew were corrupted by heretikes after his death before they were printed Rainoldes Sixtus saith in déede of his Commentaries vpon Matthew that they were corrupted chiefly in that place where Ferus speaketh of the keyes that Christ did promise Peter For there is set downe as a speciall note that Christ saith to Peter I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen hee saith not the keyes of the kingdome of earth These wordes pertaine nothing to an earthly power which yet some endeuour by them to establish affirming that Peter receiued fulnes of power not only in spirituall things but also temporall And after declaration how this is plainely reproued by S. Bernard writing to Pope Eugenius it is added farther Peter receiued the keyes that is to say power not an earthly power that he might giue and take away dominions and kingdomes neither such a power that it should be lawfull for him to doo what hee list as many men dreame but he receaued the power of binding and loosing opening shutting remitting and retaining sinnes neither this at his pleasure but as a minister and seruant doing the wil of his Lord. And these are the words which sauour so strongly of an hereticall spirite that Sixtus saith it is auouched by credible witnesses the cōmentaries of Ferus on Matthew wer corrupted after his death by heretikes chiefly in this place before they wer printed Wherin both the witnesses Sixtus in my iudgement haue shewed thē selues wise For it is better to beare men in hand that heretikes corrupted the commentaries of Ferus chiefely in this place then it should be thought that the strongest hold of all your religion the Popes supreme power to giue and take away kingdomes is shaken by a man so learned so famous so Catholike as Ferus But Sixtus saith not of his Commentaries on the Acts that they were corrupted also by heretikes Yet some heretikes hand may séeme to haue béene in them chiefely in this place where he doth reproue the arrogancie of the Popes and nameth them wicked Bishops Wherefore it would do well that the ouersight of Sixtus herein were mended by some other Sixtus who might say as much of Ferus on the Actes as Sixtus saith of him on Matthew Perhaps you haue not witnesses that wil auouch this as some auouched that The least matter of a thousand For two or three such as Surius Pontacus and Genebrardus men that haue sold them selues to make lies in the defense of Popery will be readie on the credite of a Lindan or Bolsecke not only to say it but to Chronicle it too Here is al the difficultie that these bookes are printed thus amongst your selues who set them foorth first and we receiue them at your hands A great faulte I know not whether of printers or censours and allowers of bookes to the print who suffer such scandalous places to bée printed Yea to be printed so still specially when Sixtus Senensis hath said and credible witnesses haue auouched that heretikes did corrupt them No no M. Hart it is too stale a iest to say that heretikes haue corrupted the commentaries of Ferus For the abomination of the Popes supremacie oppressing both the magistracie of the common wealth and ministerie of the Church is grown to such outrage that if we whom you call heretikes should hold our peace the stones would cry against it Hart. What néedes all this of Ferus Or Sixtus Or Canonistes Or I know not who You called me to the scriptures whē I brought the Fathers and now from the scriptures you bring me to writers of our owne age Rainoldes Not from the scriptures to them but to the scriptures by them As Christ when the Phariseis sclaundered his workes alleaged the example of their own children therby to make them sée the truth And as he said to them therefore your children shall be your iudges so I say to you therefore your brethren shall be your iudges Hart. I graunt that the Pope doth not in all respectes submit him selfe as Peter to giue account of his dooings both to the Apostles and to inferior Christians But Ferus should haue considered and so must you that the times are not like It were not conuenient for him to do so now Rainoldes So I thought the case is altered You meane by the times the mē who liue
alleaged that whole place of the scripture He will giue his Angels charge ouer thee that they shall keepe thee in all thy wayes with their handes they shall lift thee vp and so forth Whereas the deuill alleaging the rest of charge giuen to keepe him and vphold him left out of the middle wordes of keeping him in all his wayes because they made directly against that to which he did tempt Christ as I haue declared Wherefore if Vincentius had thought that the scripture is no sufficient stay for vs against heretikes because it is alleaged as well by false teachers as it is by true by the Deuill as by Christ he must haue rather craued pardon for not espying the policie of Satan then liking for impairing the credit of the word of God But although he saw not all in particular neuerthelesse in generall hee ioyneth with the truth For hee saith that heretikes followe the Deuill as oft as they bring foorth sentences of scripture by which beeing expounded amisse they goe about to maintaine theyr errours So that the scripture which heretikes bring foorth against the Catholike faith is the scripture taken in a wrong sense and misse-expounded by his iudgement But I meane the scripture expounded aright when I say that pointes of faith should be tried by the scripture onely The wordes of Vincentius therefore which you cited doo rather proue that which I defend then disproue it Neither make they more against vs then you vnles you begge all that which is in controuersie that Popery is the Catholike faith For then you may conclude that wee bring the scripture against the Catholike faith when we bring it against Popery An easie way to conquest if begging can procure you that But I minde not to giue it right to it you haue not You must winne it if you will weare it Hart. Whither that the faith of the Church of Rome which you call Popery be the Catholike faith or no because it is the later part of our conference concerning one faith I will not confound it with this of one head But what doo you meane to say that the wordes of Vincentius which I cited disproue not your assertion nor make against you more then vs when hée saith that heretikes doo alleage the scripture as also did the Deuill and you alleage it too and thinke it a sufficient fense of your opinions Rainoldes So doo you alleage it too doo you not And what is there against vs in those wordes more then against you would you not laugh at me if I should reason thus Heretikes alleage scripture so doo the Papists too therefore they are heretikes The Deuill alleaged scripture so dooth the Pope too therefore he is the Deuils scholer Hart. But we doo not alleage onely the scripture nor will be tried by it alone The heretikes appeale to nothing but to scripture and the Deuill alleaged the scripture only against Christ. Rainoldes This is more then you â—â—nde in the wordes of Vincentius it is your owne fansie He saith that heretikes do alleage the scripture that nothing else but it he saith not Neither could he haue said so without a lye For they alleage many reasons beside the scripture euen whatsoeuer helpeth to countenance their errors sometime the Church sometime Tradition sometime Councels sometime Fathers sometime Miracles sometime Visions sometime Succession of Bishops sometime such other Motiues as your Bristow calleth them Yea they haue greater aduantage for their errours against the catholike faith by these then by scripture For these may be truely alleaged against it as they haue bene often the scripture can neuer but falsely and wrongfully As for that the Deuill alleaged the scripture onely against Christ you thinke his example discrediteth the triall of truth in points of faith by the scripture onely And so it may séeme to a weake eye But to such as marke it with a sharper sight it dooth confirme it rather For that suttle serpent knowing what baites are fittest to take theÌ„ whom as a roaring lion he seeketh to deuoure is want to set vpon men with those perswasions which he is most lykely to seduce them by To one he promiseth knowledge of good and euill as to Eue an other he hardneth with lying wonders as Pharao the prophet he telleth of an Angels speech the king he deceiueth by the consent of false prophets to the Iewes he pretendeth the temple of the Lorde to the Heathens hée sheweth vniuersalitie and antiquitie in a word he leaueth no meanes vnattempted whereby he may intangle the soules of mankinde and wrappe them in the snares of death Wherfore as in his instruments he vseth other Motiues to preuaile with others so him selfe of likelihood would haue vsed them specially to Christ and not the scripture onely had he not knowne that onely scripture if any thing would preuaile with him Stapleton intending to perswade vs that Peter and by reason of Peter the Pope is supreme head of the Church saith that he will proue it by onely demonstration out of the scriptures in effect and that by onely scriptures it may bee proued fully enough and abundantly Is not this a token that we whom he séeketh to winne by his perswasions will not be woon thereto but onely by the scriptures So the Deuils practise in alleaging scripture onely to Christ is a great presumption that Christ accounted nothing a ground of faith and duetie but onely the scripture Whereof a surer argument is the whole behauiour of Christ against the Deuill whom in euery one of his three tentations he put to flight still with scripture It is written And although the Deuil to driue him from that hold alleaged scripture also yet Christ replied not with Fathers or Doctors or Rabbines of the Synagogue but with the word of his heaueÌ„ly Father and against the maimed wrested wordes of scripture he set the scripture alleaged rightly Wherefore let your Captaines instruct their souldiours as they list to get vs into the plaine fieldes of their Motiues out of our weake and false castle of onely scripture as a Licentiat termeth it the action of Christ is the instruction of Christians the Prince of darknes could not get him out of that neither shall the Princes band get out vs. Nay that this castle how weake and false soeuer false-harted weakelinges count it hath ordinaunce enough to shake your Motiues into fitters and can alone subdue all aduersarie powers I néede not the practise of Christ and word of God against you to proue it Your owne golden authour Vincentius Lirinensis saith it For himselfe affirmeth that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense But scripture is not scripture vnlesse it be taken in the right sense in the which alone it came from
as Plato did excell among the Philosophers for witte and giftes of witte In the which conclusion that you may perceiue what I geue to Peter and refuse it if you mislike it by the giftes of grace I meane all the blessings wherewith the Lord did honour him by excelling in them I meane that he did passe not all the Apostles in them all but euery one in some or other For Iohn the disciple whom the Lord loued who wrote the Gospell so diuinely In the beginning was the worde who sawe by reuelation the things that were to come and wrote them by the spirite of prophecie Iohn excelled Peter in many giftes of grace as Ierom declareth And Paule excelled him farther euen in the chiefest giftes in so much that Austin who geueth excellent grace to Peter dooth geue most excellent grace to Paule and saith that he receiued more grace and laboured more then al the rest of the Apostles and is therefore called the Apostle by an excellencie But Peter of the other side excelled Paule in primacie that hée was chosen first and Iohn in age that he was elder in respect whereof hée was preferred before him by Ieroms opinioÌ„ to be the chief of the Apostles And this is it which Ierom and other Fathers meant by Peters principalitie if you will geue them leaue to be their owne interpreters They did not meane to call him Prince of the Apostles as the Pope desireth to bee Prince of Bishops Hart They did meane to call him the mouth and the top the highest the President and the head of the Apostles For these as I haue shewed are their own wordes by which a preeminence in gouernment is prooued and not in grace onely Rainoldes These in déede come néerer to the point in question because they touch gouernment at the least some of theÌ„ For some as the highest and so the toppe it may be too séeme to haue béene meant rather of preeminence in grace then in gouernment But if you will referre them vnto both it skilleth not For they can betoken no more then the rest And the rest doo signifie although a preeminence in gouernment such as it is yet nothing in comparison of your supremacie This is plaine by that which was agreed betwixt vs when wee spake of the practise of Peters autoritie in the Actes of the Apostles For when I graunted him to be as the Speaker of the Parlament in England or the President of a court of Parlament in Fraunce and shewed the great difference out of a lawier of your owne betweene this preeminence and that supremacie which you claime you reiected the lawier as either ignorant or vnfaithful and refused this préeminence as not importing that supremacie because it hath not soueraine power nay in power is vnder the body of the assembly aboue which it is in a prerogatiue of honor Yet this preeminence is all that is geuen to Peter by the titles of the mouth the head the President of the Apostles Wherefore it is euident that by those titles your Papall supremacie is not geuen to him Hart. It may by your similitudes be probably thoght that some of the rest might note such a preemineÌ„ce in gouernment as you speake of without a souerainty of power But the title of head hath greater strength in it For the Speaker is not called with vs in England the head of the Parlament That title is reserued to the Princ e alone Rainoldes But the President of a Court of Parlament in Fraunce is called head of the Court and Austin or rather he whom you alleadged in the name of Austin expoundeth head by President and the name of head as I haue prooued out of the Scriptures is vsed to note a preeminence of other things not of power much lesse of Princely power only Then what reason is there but Ierom in saying that Peter was appointed head might signifie the preeminence not of a Prince but of a Speaker We geue not in England the name of head vnto the Speaker True Neither geue we the name of Speaker to the Prince But Peter hath them both For hee is called the mouth and head of the Apostles If the one debase him not to the meanenesse of a Speakers function why should the other aduaunce him to the highnesse of a Princes soueraintie Hart. S. Ieroms reason sheweth that hée rather meant a soueraintie as of a Prince For he â—aith that Peter was chosen one amongst the twelue to the intent that a head beeing appointed occasion of schisme might be taken away And how can occasion of schisme be taken away vnlesse that one haue souerain power to gouerne all Rainoldes Why Doo you not thinke that Fraunce appointed Presidents in the Courts of Parlament for the better ordering of them in their dooings that occasion of strife might be taken away What In frée States which are ruled in commoÌ„ not by one Prince but by the best men or by the whole people doo not their stories shew that one had a preeminence as the Consul at Rome the Prouost at Athens though the soueraintie were in many who had like authoritie and power amongst themselues And did they not appoint this one to be the chiefe and head of their company that occasion of strife might be taken away So fared it with Peter amongst the Apostles in gouerning the church whose state if wée compare with the states of common wealths we shall finde that it was an aristocratie not a monarchie as the Philosophers terme it not hauing Peter as a Prince but the Apostles as the best men to gouerne it in common Yet as in all assemblies wherein many méete about affaires of gouernment there must néedes be one for orders sake and peace to beginne to end to moderate the actions so was that preeminence geuen to Peter amongst the Apostles that all things might be done peaceably and orderly And this to be the headship which S. Ierom meant himself in that very place in which he toucheth it dooth shew manifestly For hauing set downe his aduersaries obiection But thou saiest the church is built vpon Peter he answereth thereto Although the same be done in another place on all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the strength of the church is grounded on them equally yet therefore is one chosen amongst the twelue that a head being appointed occasion of schisme may be taken away Of the which sentence the former branch sheweth that by the name of head vsed in the later he could not meane that Peter had a soueraine power ouer the Apostles For all Peters power is comprised in the keies that Christ did promise him and in the building of the church vpon him But all the Apostles receiue the keyes by Ieroms iudgement and the church is builte vpon them
in the Gospell he who said he would not goe into the vineyarde repented afterward and went so you may yéeld to this on better aduise to which you say you will not yéeld Though if your opinion of Peters supremacie were graunted to be true it proueth not your title to the Popes supremacie the principall point in question which you claime thereby For let vs faine that Peter was head of the Apostles How followeth it thereof that the Bishop of Rome is head of all the Church of Christ Hart. It foloweth by the second part of my reason The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles For if Peters power ouer the Apostles did reach vnto the whole flock both of the shéepe and the lambes then must the same power of his successor ouer Bishops reach by like reason vnto the same flocke and so to all the Church of Christ. Rainoldes But how doo you proue that the Bishop of Rome succéedeth Peter in his power Hart. Because that the power committed to Peter was not to dye with Peter For this had not bene agréeable to the goodnes and wisedom of Christ vpō whom it lay to prouide for his church vntill the end of the world as Austin sheweth he did Thinke not saith hee to the Church thinke not thy selfe forsaken because thou seest not Peter because thou seest not Paule because thou seest not them by whom thou art begotten Of thine ofspring there is growne vnto thee a fatherhood in steed of thy fathers children are borne vnto thee Rainoldes The goodnes and wisedome of our Sauiour Christ prouided for his Church as S. Paule witnesseth by giuing Pastors and teachers Pastors and teachers not one to the whole but many to the seuerall partes of his Church For they whom Christ hath chosen to serue him in the ordinarie feeding of his flocke to instruct his people and guide them in the way of life vntill the end of the world are named in the scripture sometime Elders of their age sometime Bishops of their duetie And he hath taken order by his spirite and word that such should be appointed in euery Church through euery citie This was it that Austin regarded when he said the church is not forsaken although she see not the Apostles considering that in steed of the Apostles she hath Bishops For by the name of Fathers he meant the Apostles and by the name of children bishops In steed of thy fathers children are borne vnto thee Which how it may serue your purpose I see not Unlesse perhaps you meane that amongst those children the Bishop of Rome should be heire as eldest and Bishops of other cities should be handled al like younger brethren But Austin saith not so Hart. It is proued by Austin that our Sauiour Christ prouided for his church And this I graunt he did by giuing seueral Pastors vnto seuerall flockes but so that he committed the charge of them all to one supreme Pastor which is the Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Thus I heare you say But I had rather heare Thus saith the Lord. Hart. You shall heare it The Lord saith that there shal be one flocke and one shepheard or as we translate it one folde and one Pastor whereof I make this reason By the name of Pastor is noted an ordinarie gouernment and charge which hath relation to a flocke and therefore as long as the flocke continueth the Pastors office must continue the office of one Pastor as the flocke is one It continued in Peter when Christ made him supreme Pastor Now when Peter dyed it should continue in his successor And the successor of Peter is the Bishop of Rome The Bishop of Rome therefore is the supreme Pastor of the Church of Christ. Rainoldes I perceiue your Pope can make no shew of title to supreme-headship of the Church vnlesse he put Christ from the possession of it For Christ by one Pastor doth signifie himselfe as it may appeare by the drift of all his spéech wherein he maintaineth his office and autoritie against the slanders of the Phariseis I am saith he the good Pastor and know mine owne and am known of mine As the Father knoweth me so know I the Father and I lay downe my life for my sheepe Other sheepe I haue also which are not of this fold and them must I bring and they shall heare my voyce and there shal be one flocke one Pastor One Pastor who but he of whome the wordes afore and after are meant He who is the good Pastor who knoweth his sheepe who layeth downe his life for them who hath other sheepe beside the Iewes to wéete the Gentiles whom hee will bring to his folde and so of them both the Church shal be as one flocke obeying Christ as one Pastor This is the one Pastor that our Sauiour meant Which if you wil not beléeue on my word or rather on his word who spake it beléeue your own Bible expoūding it by conferēce of scripture with scripture of Iohn with Ezekiel In whom God doth promise that he wil make of Israel Iuda one people and set his seruant Dauid that is Christ the sonne of Dauid to be one Pastor vnto them all and hee shall feede them Thus in Gods law the wordes are meant of Christ. The Pope in his law wil haue him selfe meant by them You are angry with vs when we call him Antichrist Is not the name of Antichrist too gentle for him who claimeth that to himselfe which is proper to Christ Hart. The Pope will haue himselfe to be meant by them as the vicar of Christ and so they doo belong to him Though they belong also to Christ which we deny not For thus saith the Pope Of the Church which is one there is one bodie and one head not two heades as a monster namely Christ and Christes vicar Peter and Peters successor sith the Lord saith to Peter himselfe Feede my sheepe my sheepe saith he in generall not in particular these or these whereby hee is vnderstood to haue committed all to him Whether they bee therfore Grecians or others who say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors they must needes confesse them selues not to bee of the sheepe of Christ Sith the Lord saith in Iohn that there is one folde and one Pastor Which wordes though they conclude the Pope to bée that one Pastor yet you must not take them as though the Pope meant them of himselfe alone but that they are verified first in Christ then in Peter lastly in himselfe And so there continueth one Pastor by succession euen as the Church continueth one Rainoldes Doo you know what you say when you say there continueth one Pastor by succession Peter after Christ the Pope after Peter I hope you doo it ignorantly and therefore may obteine mercy though
flocke And what is this to Peters successour the Pope who preacheth not as Peter did For he vseth not to preach but when he saith Masse nor then vnlesse he list and he saith not Masse but on a fewe hie feastes nor then if he be let and the Italian gouernment specially the Papacy so discreetly menaged must néedes haue le ts a number His Princely cares do trouble him he leaueth Priestly to the Friers Wherefore that sacrilegious vsurper of Rome committeth two euils against both the head and the bodie of the Church Against the head in that he maketh the prerogatiue of one Pastor common to all Popes which is proper to Christ. Against the body in that hee claimeth the title of Christes vicar as proper to him selfe which is common to all Pastours Hart. Nay you who reuile the high priest of God commit a great euill But he coÌ„mitteth none at all For he taketh not the prerogatiue of one Pastor as Christ but vnder Christ. And he claimeth the title of Christes vicar by an excellencie as the chiefe and generall though all other Bishops be Christes vicars also Rainoldes This is to roale the stone of Sisyphus You driue it vp the hill and still it slippeth backeward yet cease you not to striue but you striue in vaine For though you fetch it vp neuer so often downe againe it will All Bishops you say are the vicars of Christ but the Pope claimeth that title by an excellencie True By an excellencie he robbeth al Bishops of that honour which Christ hath giuen them For he doth account them all to be his vicars as Cardinall Turrecremata calleth them expressely the vicars of the Pope and proueth by the Popes owne law that they are so Wherefore if you will haue them Christes vicars too the matter must be helped out with your distinction that first and directly they are the Popes vicars and Christes by a consequent and secondarilie As for the man whom you call the hie priest of God I know him not For he is not the hie priest of the Iewes I trow And Christians haue no hie priest but the Sonne of the Highest euen him of whom it is writen such an hie priest it became vs to haue which is holy harmelesse vndefiled separate from sinners and made higher then the heauens Wherefore I speake not the wordes of reuiling but of truth and modestie when I call him a sacrilegious vsurper who taketh the crowne of the king of kings and fetteth it on his owne head This doth that man of sinne who saith that it is necessarie for euery man vnto saluation to be subiect to the Pope and that they who say hee hath not charge ouer them are not of Christs sheepe because the Lord saith in Iohn that there shall be one flocke and one pastour Hart. You néede not account it so heinous a matter to conclude that doctrine by these wordes of Christ. Chiefely sith it is probable that he meant them rather of the Pope then him selfe For he saith there shall be one flocke and one Pastor he saith not there hath beene but there shall be Now him selfe as being God was alway Pastor of the Gentiles also no lesse theÌ„ of the Iewes And so in respect of him there had before bene one flocke and one pastor Wherfore sith he speaketh of a thing that should be not that had bene alreadie he might be well thought to haue meant not him selfe but the Pope rather who in his stéed is Pastor both of Iewes and Gentiles Rainoldes Had the Gentiles alway God for their Pastor as well as the Iewes What meant S. Paule then who saith to the Gentiles ye were without Christ and aliants from the common wealth of Israell and straungers from the couenants of promise and had no hope and were without God in the world For God is called Pastor in respect of them whom he guideth and feedeth with the foode of life So that if he were Pastor of the Gentiles alway as you say he was then they were alway faithfull and members of the Church and had the hope of God in Christ. But if they were before without Christ without hope without God in the world and aliants from the common wealth of Israell that is the Church and straungers from the couenants of promise made to the faithfull as they were S. Paule saith then neither were they one flocke with the Iewes neither was God their one Pastor wherfore what â—oeuer shew of probabilitie the Pope might séeme to haue for abusing those wordes to maintaine his own pride in truth they agree to him who broke the stoppe of the partition-wall and made of both one that is to Christ Iesus and onely to Christ. Hart. Well If the wordes agree not to the Pope perhaps in one sense they may in an other For there are sundry senses of the holy scriptures but in generall two as Father Robert sheweth whereof the one is called historicall or literall the other mysticall or spirituall And so the spéech of Christ touching one Pastor might signifie the Pope in a mysticall sense though not in the literall As likewise the name of hye priest signifying the Iewish literally doth mystically betoken him Rainoldes That sense is the right sense of the scriptures which the holy Ghost the author of them meant Now the holye Ghost hath vttered them in such sort that not the wordes onely do signifie things according to their naturall sense but the things also expressed by the wordes do signifie other things according to the Lordes ordinance who shadowed that by figures in the olde Testament which is performed in the newe As for example it is writen in the law of Moses you shall not breake a bone of him These wordes are spoken touching the lambe of the passeouer and signifie as they sound that the Iewes should dresse it whole without breaking any bone thereof But this thing doth signifie a faâ—ther thing in secret to wéete that when Christ who was represented figured by the lambe should suffer death to saue vs a bone of him should not be broken Thus of one place there are two senses the former called literall because the letter as it were that is the very wordes being vnderstood aright do import it and the later mysticall because the thing imported and meant by the letter doth betoken a déeper mysterie Of these the literall sense is knowne to be the meaning of the holy Ghost For wordes were made to open the conceites of our mind and so are they vsed by the holy Ghost to shew the will of God vnto vs. The mysticall is known to be his meaning also when himselfe reuealeth it as he hath done in that touching the lambe Otherwise it is not For men may deuise many mysticall senses of a place in scripture and them one contrarie to an other as often times they doo Which all could not be meant by
may séee by Eli. Rainoldes But this was verie rare extraordinarie Now the Law which God prescribed in Deuteronomie by his seruant Moses did touch the common state and ordinarie gouernment of the people of Israel For both it is generall without limitation of persons or times as to be kept still for the ending of their controuersies not onely in the dayes of Eli and it is written that when king Iosaphat restored the state decayed in Ierusalem hee set of the Leuites and the Priestes and of the chiefe of the families of Israell for the iudgements of the Lorde and for controuersies Which to haue béene done in respect of that law it appeareth by the wordes that he spake vnto them Whatsoeuer controuersie shall come vnto you from your brethren who dwell in their cities betweene blood and blood betweene law and precept statutes and iudgements doo ye admonish them that they offend not against the Lord. Wherefore séeing that the law in Deuteronomie was made to establish a highest court of iudgement in which all harder causes ecclesiasticall and ciuil should be determined without appeale farther the reason and the practise of the law do shew that in respect of the two kinds of causes there were ordained two sortes of men to heare them ecclesiasticall and ciuill the ciuill meant by the iudge the ecclesiasticall by the Priest Who because they were distinct as in office so in person too ordinarily it followeth thereof that the Priest was not meant by the iudge Hart. Yet the Glosse expounding that place of Deuteronomie doth say that by the iudge is meant the high Priest euen as I say Rainoldes But Lyra and Caietan as worthie men as they who compiled the Glosse if you will heare men doo say that by the iudge is meant the ciuill magistrate euen as I say Which sense of the place is so plaine certaine that Carolus Sigonius the Popes owne historian in a booke which lately he set foorth at Bononia with approbation of the Bishoppe and holy Inquisition and dedicated to Pope Gregory the thirtéenth affirmeth that the king is meant by the iudge in that place of Deuteronomie It may be M. Hart that sith you were beyond-sea they haue bethought them selues and seeing that your Glosse doth goe against the text they will no longer stand vnto it Indéede if the supremacie belong to the iudge the Prince hath greater right thereto then the Pope For it is certaine as I haue declared by circumstances of the scripture that the Priest was not meant by the iudge Hart. It skilleth not to my purpose whether he were or no. It sufficeth me that he who refuseth to obey the Priest must die by the law Which is enough to proue the soueraintie of one Priest Rainoldes Not so For the name of Priest in this law doth signifie the Priestes Which is cléere by reason that the punishment of the transgressor hath a relation to the law and the law doth will men to go to the Priests the Priestes it saith as of many not as of one the hie Priest Wherefore in giuing sentence of death against him who disobeieth the Priest it meaneth the Priestes according to a kind of spéech wherin the whole is noted by the part As afterward likewise entreating of the duetie and right of the Priestes it noteth them in generall by name of the Priest Hart. But here vpon mention of the Priest it foloweth who doth serue the Lord thy God By the which title the hie Priest may séeme to haue béene namely noted and seuered from the rest Rainoldes He might so were it not that the same title is also giuen afterward to Priestes generally yea where this matter is touched againe of purpose the Lord thy God hath chosen the Priestes the sonnes of Leui to serue him and to blesse in the name of the Lorde and by their word shall euery controuersie and euery plague be tried Hart. Yet you will graunt I trust that amongst the Priestes there was one chiefe yea euen in this matter of highest iudgement in doubtfull causes Which in the same place of Scripture that you brought to expound this is shewed by king Iosaphat saying vnto them to whom that iudgement was committed Amarias the Priest shall be the chiefe ouer you in matters of the Lord. Rainoldes This I will graunt you But you must graunt me also that looke what is giuen to him amongst the Priestes in matters of the Lord that is in ecclesiastical the same amongst the iudges is giuen to Zebadias in matters of the king that is in ciuil causes For Iosaphat doth say as well the one as the other So that to come now to the later point of your lame similitude if Christians must haue a soueraine Bishop ouer all because the Iewes had one chiefe Priest then Christians must haue a soueraine Prince ouer all because the Iewes had one chiefe iudge And as all harder causes at least of religion must be referred to the Pope so all of ciuill matters must be referred to the Emperour And as amongst the Iewes the Priest and iudge were resident in the place which the Lord had chosen so the Pope and the Emperour must both abide in Rome Which Pope Paule the third did feare that Emperour Charles the fifth would haue done But he sent for the French men to kéepe him out If Gregorie that now is Pope be better minded and will resigne his ciuill State vnto the Emperour with the Palace of Vaticane and Castell of Saint Angelo then may the reason which you ground vpon the law in Deuteronomie serue you with greater shew Howbeit euen in that case it would rather further the Emperour then the Pope because it mentioneth the iudge as one the Priestes as many Hart. It is not necessary for the gouernment of the common-wealth among Princes that any one of them be Prince ouer all But as the king of Iuda was in his owne kingdome so euery Prince is highest in his own dominion Rainoldes Neither it is necessarie for the administration of the Church amongst Bishops that any one of them be Bishop ouer all But as the hie Priest was chiefe ouer the Iewes so is euery Bishop ouer his owne charge Hart. Nay the case of the Church and common-wealth herein are vnlike and different Because that common-weales may be vpholden although they be gouerned not onely by diuerse kings and ciuill magistrates but also by diuerse ordinances and lawes But the Church as it hath one faith in all Christians so ought it to haue the same lawes and ordinances of religion in all countries Rainoldes This difference and vnlikenes betwéene the Church and common-wealth is lesser then you imagine if it bee marked well For iustice and right in giuing euery one his due should haue the same place in the common-wealth which faith and religion claimeth in the Church Now as in religion there are some things of substance
is writen also in the holy Gospell that in an other Councell and consultation of the Iewes wherein they sought vniustly to condemne the iust when Iesus being asked whether he were Christ the sonne of God confessed him selfe to be so Caiphas the hye priest saide hee hath blasphemed what neede we witnesses any further behold now you haue heard his blasphemie Was this spéeche of Caiphas a prophecie or an errour Hart. What if it were an errour Rainoldes How sée you not then that Caiphas did not prophecie by priuilege of his office For so he should haue prophecied in this Councell too in which he sate as hye Priest hée spake as hye Priest and to him as hye Priest the Councell did assent in giuing sentence against Christ. But that amongst many mischiefes and falshoodes he spake the wordes of truth once in a sense not which he meant for he meant wickedly but which his spéeche yéelded there was a worke of God in it Who hauing sent his sonne a sauiour to the Iewes as he stirred them vp to know him and receiue him by Angels by wonders by voyces from heauen by wise men from the east a prophetisse in the temple Iohn Baptist in the wildernes by men women childreÌ„ all sortes of persons yea by the diuels them selues so he made the hye Priest to beare witnesse of him by giuing out an Oâ—â—cle vnder doutfull wordes to make the Iewes more vnexcusable that by his owne mouth the naughtie seruant might be iudged Wherefore not the ordinarie priuilege of office but an extraordinarie motion of God did guide the tongue of Caiphas to prophecie of Christ as he opened the mouth of the asse of Balaam to reproue her maister And you who would gather an ordinarie priuilege of the Popes office by that extraordinarie prophecying of Caiphas doo make a like reason as if you should conclude that the Popes horse can speake because that Balaams asse did Nay you might conclude this on greater reason For Balaams asse spake twise Caiphas prophecied but once Hart. Your similitude is odious I maruell why you vse such Rainoldes Because your reason is absurd I would faine haue you see it Hart. Absurd He that should call it absurd in our schooles would be thought him selfe absurd For it is grounded vpon a proportion betwixt the hie Priest and the Pope the Church of the Iewes and of the Christians Rainoldes Then by a reason of proportion belike the Pope condemneth Christ as Caiphas did and vexeth Christians as Annas Doo you allowe hereof in your schooles also Hart. Yet againe I see you will neuer leaue these odious comparisons The Pope to Caiphas and Annas Rainoldes You are a straunge man who go about to proue by the example of Caiphas that the Pope can not erre in office and are angrie with me for touching the weakenes of your reason therein Hart. Wel. I graunt that Caiphas had not that priuilege For it was not promised to the hie Priestes of the Iewish Church but till the comming of Christ at which time the Prophets shewed that it should faile them For Ieremie saith thereof In that day the heart of the king shall perish and the heart of the Princes and the Priestes shal be astonished And Ezekiel more plainely The law shall perish from the Priest counsell from the Elders But till that time they had it and did teach the truth according to the law and were to be obeied in all things which they taught Rainoldes Yea What say you then of Vrias who was hie Priest vnder king Achaz sixe hundred yeares before Christ He ceased to sacrifice on the altar of God appointed by the law and hauing made a new one like to the altar of Damascus he sacrificed vpon it Whereby he defiled himselfe and the land with rebellion against the Lord. Hart. I say that Vrias did erre in doing so But we may refute this reason of yours by denying that Vrias did succede Aaron and was of the tribe of Leui. Rainoldes In déede a Cardinall answereth that you may refute it so in one word And that is shewed plainelye enough as he saith by those wordes of scripture which are writen of Ieroboam He made Chapels in hie places and Priestes of the lowest of the people who were not of the sonnes of Leui. But this refutation is as fitte against our reason of Vrias as if a maÌ„ should say that Bishops in England are not Protestants because the Bishops of Fraunce are Papistes For the Priestes which Ieroboam made of the lowest of the people not of the sonnes of Leui were in the kingdome of Israel at Bethel and Dan and Vrias was Priest in the temple at Ierusalem in the kingdome of Iuda The thing is apparant by the very course and text of the scripture And they who would saue the Priesthood most gladly from the shamefull staine agree that he was hie Priest the successour of Aaron Hart. Let it be admitted that he was so The staine of his fault is not so foule as you make it For what did he els but that which we reade Pope Marcellinê° to haue done Who in the horrible persecution of Christians vnder Maximian and Diocletian took incense for feare and offered it to Idols Vrias did transgresse the law of God not wilfully but through the frailtie of the flesh not of his own accord but by the kings commaundement Wherfore it came rather of feare then of rashnes or ignorance that hee offended Rainoldes So did it in Peter that he denied Christ. And may you therefore say that Peter was priuileged not to denie Christ I maruell that you feele not the grossenes of your dealing You say that hie Priestes are priuileged by their office to perseuere in true doctrine It is shewed that they fall to manifest Idolatrie You graunt they do so but they do it for feare you say Where is the priuilege then For God to whom so euer he giueth any benefit as it were by priuilege hee giueth them a priuilege withall of speciall fauour to frée them from the lettes that might debarre them of the benefit Ezekias was sicke of a pestilent disease whereof he should haue died God did adde fifteene yeares to his life He tooke away his sickenes that he might enioy it S. Paule was in daunger to be lost with shipwracke and all the rest who sailed with him God did giue to him his owne life and theirs He kept them all from danger and brought them safe vnto the land Wherefore if God had giuen a priuilege of true doctrine to the hie Priestes hee woulde haue giuen them a priuilege of grace too that no deceit of fleshe should make them fall away from it But they might fall away from it by sundry meanes to errour yea to Idolatrie For if they might for feare why not for loue also as Salomon did If for loue
the worde which your exposition forceth to pointes of faith Christ himselfe applyeth it to precepts of maners kepe the commandements So pithie is the timber of which you frame your fansies Though if we should take it all as verie sounde and graunt that Christ meant obseruing and dooing of beléefe and life your purpose is not proued thereby For whether pointes of faith or precepts of maners he willeth Scribes and Pharises to bée obeyed no farther then in what they teach out of the chaire of Moses Hart. The wordes of our Sauiour are a great deale larger You straitē them I know not how All things whatsoeuer they shall say vnto you obserue ye and doo ye marke he saith all thinges And he that saith all thinges doth except nothing You except many Rainoldes The Lord did command the people of Israell to repaire in causes of difficultie and doubt to the Priestes and to the iudge and aske and they shall shew thee the sentence of iudgement and thou shalt obserue to doo according vnto all that they shall teach thee These wordes thou shalt obserue to doo according vnto all that they shall teach thee the Iewes are accustomed to alleage commonly when they defend their fond traditions receiued of their Fathers And Selomoh a Rabbin whom they make great account off doth glose them with this note Thou must not decline from that which they shall tell thee no not though they say that the right hand is the left and the left hand is the right A mightie spirit of errour that hath bewitched these men But you and your Church doo runne apace after them Perhaps you thinke you may be as bolde for your Popes as Rabbi Selomoh for their Priestes Hart. No sir. For I graunt that Rabbi Selomoh speaketh foolishly Which is plaine by the place it selfe whereon he gloseth For the scripture saith there thou shalt doo all that they shall teach thee according to the law or to his law as we reade it Wherefore to doo all that the Priestes taught is not meant of thinges vngodlie or false but onely true and consonant to the law of God Rainoldes Euen so the scripture sarth here The Scribes and the Pharises doo sit in the chaire of Moses all thinges therefore whatsoeuer they say you must obserue obserue ye and doo ye Wherein the word therefore restraineth all thinges to that which they teach in the chaire of Moses that is as I haue shewed out of the law of God So that by your leaue the dreame of the Iewes is as wise as yours in this point of all And as you say to vs so may they to you he that saith all thinges doth except nothing You except many Hart. Nay I except nothing of all which the Scribes and the Pharises teach For Christ as I saide requireth all those thinges to be obserued which they teach because they teach not other thinges but such as are to be obserued Rainoldes But if they taught any thing against the law of God I trust you will except that and graunt that all was not to be obserued which they taught Hart. If they taught any thing against the law I graunt But I deny that they taught any thing against it yea or could teach Rainoldes And why doo you deny it Hart. Because Christ saith of them they sit vpō the chaire of Moses Whereby to take your owne exposition he meant they teach as Moses did Now if they taught as Moses then taught they not against the law neither could they For if they could teach against the law of God then might that bee false which was meant by Christ that they teach as Moses Rainoldes That reason holdeth not For many speake the truth who can lye if néede be and many speake the truth in some thinges who in all thinges doo not Christ respecteth that which the Scribes and Pharises did ordinarily they read the law in the Synagogues they willed the people to obserue it yea in outward thinges as ceremonies tithes purifyings and sabbats they did exact it most straitly But as Paul said vnto the hye Priest thou sittest to iudge me according to the law and doost thou command me to be smitten against the law so did they some times teach against the law when they should teach according to it And hereof is proofe made by Christ him selfe who therefore willed his disciples to beware of the leauen that is the doctrine of the Pharises Hart. Then belike they sate not vpon the chaire of Moses at some times when they taught Rainoldes True but cleane beside it vpon a stoole of their owne For Moses wrote of Christ and Christ is the end of his law But they refused Christ and taught the people so to doo They watched him of purpose that they might finde matter of accusation against him They pronounced of him that he cast out diuels by the Prince of diuels They condemned him as guiltie of death They saide that they had found him a man peruerting the nation forbidding to pay tribute to Caesar. They sclaunderously accused the iust they did blaspheme the God of glory they put to death the Lord of life They neither entred them selues into the kingdome of heauen nor suffered others to enter in Hart. I graunt that in the person of Christ they did erre but they did not erre in expounding the law For when they were demaunded where Christ should bee borne they said at Bethleem in Iudaea and they said well But because the virgin Marie and Ioseph dwelt at Nazareth in Galile before he was borne and there he liued with them after in so much that he was called Iesus of Nazareth they thought he had beene borne there not at Bethleem and so they were deceiued and did not know him to be Christ. Rainoldes Yet this is the substance of the word of life not that there shal be a Christ which the Iewes beleeue till this day but that Iesus of Nazareth whom they crucified was that Christ. The Scribes and the Pharises said he was not Ought the Iewes herein to beleeue as they said If you thinke that they ought no maruaile if you hold that we must doo as Popes say If you thinke they ought not then the Scribes and Pharises did erre in some thinge that they taught As for that you answere they erred in Christes person not in expounding the law it is a méere cauill For we speake in generall of the chaire of Moses that is of his doctrine They erred in expounding the doctrine of Moses when they denyed to Christ the thinges which Moses wrote of him Howbeit that it is false too that they erred not in expounding the law For whereas the law is holy and spirituall requiring perfit righteousnes not onely in the outward actions of the bodie but also in the in ward affections of the minde the Scribes and the
then all Bishops are priuileged as Bishops That if an other Bishop may erre notwithstanding as Bishop which you graunt you must néedes graunt the Pope may also erre as Pope Yea though all Popes were pastors or hirelinges and none of them theeues yet might they erre as Popes too For S. Austin and S. Cyprian erred as Bishops Yet they were pastors both Hart. Nay the Pope certainly can not erre as Pope that is to say in office though he may in person as Pope Honorius did Rainoldes Nay in Pope Honorius you are cast certainly For I haue proued now that he wrote that as Pope which he was condemned for and therefore erred as Pope Hart. It may séeme he wrote it as Pope so erred But that is not enough to proue that the Pope may erre in office as I take it Rainoldes To proue it then more fully let vs sée first what is the office of the Pope that so it may appeere whether hee may erre in office or no. S. Peter the Apostle writing vnto Elders by whom he meaneth Bishops and all who haue the charge of soules as you acknowledge Feede ye saith he the flocke of God which is committed to you taking care for it not by constraint but willingly not for filthy lucre but of a ready minde not as though you were Lordes ouer Gods heritages but that ye may be ensamples to the flocke Wherein he chargeth them to preach the word of God and leade a godly life that they may féede the Church both with doctrine and example This is the Popes office I thinke if he be a Bishop for it doth touch them all But what thinke you of it least I lose my labour through an except the Pope doth it touch all Bishops or al saue him onely Hart. It doth touch them all Rainoldes The Councell of Trent hath made two decrées against the sinne of non-residence in the later whereof it proueth that all they who haue the charge of soules are bound to be resident because they ought to feede their flocke with the word with sacraments with prayers and with good workes and feede it so they cannot if they forsake it as hirelinges and be not resident vpon it Beside the which necessarie consequence of reason the terme whereby S. Peter doth note the care that they should take importeth as much For it signifieth to looke too as it were to watch ouer to looke as shepheards to the flocke which they must day and night where there are woolues and wilde beastes to watch as watchmen in the citie a néedefull thing in peace but in warre specially Wherefore sith euery flocke of Christ is in daunger of the woolfe that is the diuell who seeketh whom he may deuour and Satan with his Angels euen with spirituall wickednesses is still in warre against the faithfull it foloweth that all Bishops ought to be resident on their charge all pastors to attend their flockes all watchmen to regard their cities Doo you allow of this too Hart. So as the Councell hath decréede it Rainoldes By your confession then vpon the scripture with the Councell the office of a Bishop requireth three thinges that he preach faithfully that he liue vprightly and that he be resident on his charge But the Bishop of Rome may erre in each of these Therefore in office he may erre How say you May he not Hart. He cannot erre in them all Rainoldes He may erre in office if he may erre in any of them for each of them toucheth his office you grant But I proue in them all And to beginne with the last he may be non-resident For he was so by the space of threescore and ten yeares togither all the which time seuen Popes who folowed one an other Clemens the fifth Iohn the two and twentéeth Benedict the twelfth Clemens the sixth Innocent the sixth Vrban the fifth Gregory the eleuenth abode first at Lions in Fraunce then at Auinion and neuer came as much as once to Rome Is not this true Hart. Yet you may not say that they were non-residents For the Pope hath charge ouer the whole world not ouer Rome onely So that wheresoeuer he abideth he is resident Rainoldes And wheresoeuer he abideth not he is non-resident Will not that folow For he that hath two benefices smaller then Rome is not resident on the one if he be resident on the other And whatsoeueryou imagine of the Popes residence vpon the whole world vnlesse he be resident at Rome he is non-resident Which himselfe acknowledged euen Gregorie the eleuenth the last of the seuen who therefore went at length from Auinion to Rome For the chiefest cause that moued him thereto was the spéech of a certaine Bishop Whom when he had asked why he went not to his charge from which a Pastor ought not to be so long absent the Bishop answered him And why most holy Father go not you to yours The Pope was not so wise to replie as you doo that the whole world was his charge but being moued with the iust reproofe of his fault hee went to Rome straight And when after his death the Cardinals were to choose a newe Pope the clergie and people of Rome beséeching them to choose an Italian least if a French mâ—n were chosen the Court should into Fraunce againe said that it was meâ—te the Pope should be resident vpon the Papall See Whereby you may perceiue that the Pope and clergie and people of Rome thought the Pope non-resident when hee abode in Fraunce What thinke you that he was so or that they erred who thought so Hart. You are too full of questions by which you séeke to entangle me Go forward with youâ— argument and when you haue done I will answere to it Rainoldes I séeke not to entangle you but with the truth wherein I wish your companie But if I should goe forward alone till I had done my paines might be perhaps either fruitlesse or néedelesse Wherefore I must desire you to go forward with me and answere to my question whether you thinke the seuen Popes were non-residents Hart. They were Frenchmen all and vpon a fansie belike to their countrie they abode in Fraunce to the great hurt of Italie and Rome They might haue done better to haue stayed at Rome still but what then Rainoldes That is as much in gentler wordes as if you said they did amisse in it The Pope may offend then in that point of duetie which requireth residence The next of godly life he may offend in also Which I haue proued alreadie by sundry examples but if you will you shall haue more Vrban the sixth and Boniface the ninth Hart. It is superfluous to rehearse more of their stories We graunt as I haue said that they may erre in maners And in déede non-residence is a fault rather of maners then of doctrine Wherefore though they may erre in
breath doo say that the same thing is both writen and vnwriten Yet Father Robert dealeth wiselyer and like a Iesuite who séeing the danger of naming speciall men and places doth shrowd himselfe in the generall of Councels Popes and Fathers As if an horse-stealer being to giue account of whom and where he got his horses should say that he bought them of incorporations horse-coursers and honest men within Christendom Hart. Will you leaue your roauing and come vnto the marke now Rainoldes It is a roauing marke we shote at and I am come néerer it then you would haue me But what shall be your next baâ—â— Hart. I told you that I would proue it next by the Fathers It agreeth very well with your spirit that you should call this a bolt Rainoldes Well enough as you shoote it For although the Lord hath planted the writings of the Fathers as trees in his Church as in a Paradise whereof there may be made good shaftes blessed is the man that hath his quiuer full of them they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enimies in the gate yet not all the shaftes which you do vse of theirs are good your fletchers at whose handes you take them vpon trust doo marre them in the making that I may iustly call them rather bolts of Papistes then shafts of the Fathers Who if they were aliue might say to you in like sorte as did a Poet to Fidentinus This booke Sir Fidentinus which thou doost reade is mine But thou by reading it amisse beginst to make it thine Hart. Will you promise then to yelde vnto the Popes supremacie if I proue it by the sayings and iudgement of the Fathers alleaged and applyed rightly Rainoldes I truly But I must doo it with a protestation for my defense against such quarrelers as Bishop Iewell fell vpon Hart. With what protestation Rainoldes With this that I promise to yéelde vnto the Popes supremacie if you can proue it by the Fathers not becaâ—â—e I thinke that proofe to be sufficient of doubtfull matters in religion but because I know you are not able so to proue it Hart. Whether I be able or no so to proue it the thing it selfe will shew But if you thinke not that a sufficient proofe why saide you that the writinges of Fathers are as trees whereof there may be made good shaftes such as shall destroy their enimies in the gate yea that the man is blessed who hath his quiuer full of them Rainoldes It is writen in the Psalmes Except the Lord keepe the citie the keeper watcheth in vaine By the which wordes the Prophet séemeth to haue thought that the warde and watch of men is not sufficient for the defense of cities vnlesse the Lord assist them with his watch and ward How say is not this true Hart. So. What of that Rainoldes That is an answere to your question For the Prophet adding how God doth blesse men in giuing them children saith they are as arrowes in the hand of a strong man blessed is the man that hath his quiuer full of them they shall not be confounded but they shall destroy their enimies in the gate If this be truly spoken of children well nurtured who yet are not sufficient to defend a citie without the Lordes assistance why might it not be spoken of Fathers well vsed and yet they not suffice to decide a controuersie without the worde of God For though I acknowledge there is good wood in them to make shaftes for the Lordes warres yet is not all their wood such some of it is knottie some lithy â—ome crooked And the best arrowes which are made thereof vnlesse they haue heades of stronger mettall then them selues out of the Lords armorie they are not sharpe enough to pearce into the harte of the kinges enimies as are the arrowes of our Salomon Wherefore as of your part if you hearken not to Moses and the Prophetes I haue no greate hope that Fathers will perswade you though they should rise from the dead so for my selfe I will assure you that neither dead nor quicke Fathers nor children shall perswade me any thing in matters of religion which they can not proue by Moses and the Prophetes For the Apostles preached not any thing but that which the Prophetes and Moses saide should come to passe And if a Father if a Saint if an Angell from heauen preach beside that which the Apostles preached let him be accursed This lesson I haue learned of Paul the Apostle and I subscribe vnto it If you can like it better out of a Fathers mouth learne it of S. Austin Who writing against the Donatists which could not proue by scripture their erroneous doctrine doth presse them with the same sentence and teach al Christians the same lesson whether it be of Christ or of his Church or of any thing els whatsoeuer pertaining to our faith and life I will not say if we but if an Angel from heauen shall preach to you besides that which you haue receyued in the scriptures of the law and the Gospel that is to say the olde and new testament let him be accursed Hart. You mistake the meaning of S. Austins wordes For they are thus in Latin Proinde siue de Christo siue de eius ecclesia siue dâ— quacunque alia re quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram Rainoldes I haue the right meaning of these wordes I trow for they are plaine of all thinges that doo concerne our faith and life Hart. I but heare the rest Non dicam si nos nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit licet nos sed â—mnino quod sequutus adiecit si angelus Rainoldes Neither doo I mistake these For he alludeth to the wordes of Paul to the Galatians Hart. But you mistake the meaning of that which doth follow Si angelus de coelo vobis annuntiauerit praeterqà um quod in scripturis legalibus euangelicis accepistis anathema sit Rainoldes Why doth he not meane the old new testameÌ„t as we call them by the scripâ—ures of the law and the gospell Hart. Yes but your errour is in the worde praeterquà m by which he meaneth contra quà m not beside that but against that For there are sundrie thinges of faith and life to be preached beside them in the scriptures of the law and the gospell but not against them Wherefore if it were so that the Popes supremacie could not be proued by scriptures yet the proofe of it by the Fathers might be good For it were not against the scriptures although it were beside the scriptures Rainoldes Praeterquà m id est contra quà m beside that which you haue receyued in the scriptures that is against that This is your Louanists glose Hart. Nay it is S. Austins as you may perceiue by his own wordes in an other place touching the same matter where he saith thus The Apostle did not say
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
new For Austin who saw Ieroms preferred still the olde translation before it Gregorie who liued about two hundred yeares after doth vse them both indifferently because the Church of Rome did so but liketh better of the new And so in processe of time the new translation did preuaile and the olde was wholy left saue in the Psalmes onely which being soong in Churches had taken déeper roote then could be plucked vp by Ierom. Now sith those epistles of the Bishops of Rome doo alleage the scriptures after that translation which the Fathers called the new you call the olde and it was so long after Ieroms time before that translation was growne to such credit that it had shut the other out it is probable that they were writen long after but whether long or short it is certaine that they were writen after Ieroms time Hart. It is true that Anacletus and the rest of those Bishops who liued before S. Ieroms time must néedes vse that translation which the Fathers call the olde And so doth Turrian answere they did in these epistles Rainoldes The contrarie is plaine by the epistles themselues in euerie one of them Hart. I but Turrian saith that when these epistles were first set abroad to the vse of the Church that they might come to all mens knowlege then was it thought good because S. Ieroms translation was in all mens hands that many places which were cited according to the other should be changed and cited according to S. Ieroms translation Rainoldes But how doth Turrian proue that they were cited first according to the other Hart. Because sundrie sentences which in them are cited out of the Prophets would better fit the purpose if they had béene cited according to the other which was out of the Gréeke then according to S. Ieroms which is out of the Hebrewe For example in the first epistle of Pope Alexander that text is alleaged out of the Prophet Zacharie He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of mine eye as it is in Ierom. But the other translation out of the Gréeke should be He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye that is of his owne eye and not of Gods In the which sort it had béene more fit for Alexander to cite it as Turrian doth proue by the circumstances of the text And the like he sheweth in two or thrée examples mo Rainoldes And thereof he concludeth that the Pope did cite it so As who say the Pope must needes doo that which was most fit Hart. Nay it doth not well agrée to his purpose vnlesse he did cite it so Rainoldes Whether it doo or no it is plaine that the autour meant not so to cite it For in the same epistle he saith that Priests and Bishops to whom he applieth it are called the eyes of the Lord. Which sith he saith on those wordes He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of mine eye it séemeth that hée meant eye not of his eye who toucheth but of Gods Neither had he meant otherwise if he had cited the words after the Gréek translation and not Ieroms For though it be in Gréeke He that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye as it is in Hebrewe and in the best copies of Ieroms Latin too yet the word his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is referred to the Lord of hostes whose care of his people the Prophet noteth by that spéech in like sort as Moses had also doon before him Wherefore if it agree not well in that sense to the purpose and drift of the Popes epistle in which it is alleaged as Turrian saith it doth not then himselfe confesseth that not all the scriptures are there alleaged fitly Which he cannot abide the Centuries should say But if this answere be good and allowable that when those epistles of the Popes were published the textes which could not be alleaged so by them were chaunged then is it impossible to bring any reason but you may shield them from it easily For if there be a point of order in discipline or doctrine in faith or the state of times or circumstances of persons and things whatsoeuer that is disproued by writers and witnesses of that age as there are infinite you may say that it was not so in the epistles but they who set them forth did alter that point For example in one of them which is fathered on Cornelius appeales vnto the See of Rome are approued But Cyprian doth shew that Cornelius agreed with him and other Bishops that causes should be ended where they began without appeales Hart. We shall neuer make an end if we stand on euerie particular that may be cauilled at It sufficeth me that all which you can say is set downe in the Centuries and that which they haue said is answered by Turrian This is Stapletons defense of those epistles and I content my selfe with it Rainoldes Not all which they haue said is answered by Turrian perhaps not this verie point about Cornelius But if you like so well of Stapletons policie to lay all on Turrian let vs leaue his dealing therein against the Centuries to be considered by the iury Whom I must request withall to consider of one reason more which they shall neither finde in Turrian nor in the Centuries Hart. What reason is that Rainoldes The iudgement of thrée learned men of your owne side Cusanus the Cardinall Bellarmin the Iesuit and Contius the famous Lawier For Cardinall Cusanus saying that peraduenture those epistles of Clemens and Anaâ—letus are counterfeit vpon the which they who would exalt the See of Rome more then is expedient and seemely for the holy Church doo ground them selues addeth for proofe thereof that if a man first did reade them ouer diligently applying the state of their times to those epistles and then were perfit in the workes of all the holy Fathers who liued vntill Austin Ierom and Ambrose and in the actes of Councels where true and authenticall writinges are alleaged he should finde this true that neither are the said epistles mentioned in any of those writings yea and the epistles being applyed to the time of those holy men do betray them selues Hart. Cusanus when he wrote these thinges was not Cardinall neither doth he affirme it but saith peraduenture and he mentioneth the epistles of Clemens and Anacletus onely not of all Rainoldes But his reasons of the contents and witnesses do touch them all as doth his drift also Nor saith he peraduenture of douting but of modestie for he addeth farther that things a great number doo proue it manifestly And though he were not Cardinall then yet he was Doctour of the Canon law and Deane of a Cathedrall Church and fit to be made Cardinall within a few yeares after Neither spake he of hatred to the Sée of Rome which he calleth the diuine the most excellent in all praise yea
Priest as it signifieth a man appointed to sacrifice is sacerdos and not presbyter The name which the Apostles giue a Minister of the gospell is presbyter and not sacerdos Which difference of wordes necessarie to be obserued for the distinction of thinges betwéene the Ministers of the old and the new testament as the Apostles kept it in the tongue in which the new testament is writen so they who translated the testament into English were to kéepe it also Wherefore it was not of falshood and corruption but of religious zeale of truth that they called presbyter an Elder not a Priest For sith the custome of our English spéech hath made the name of Priest proper to a man appointed to sacrifice such as were the Priests after the order of Aaron in the olde testament the Priest after the order of Melchisedec in the new the Ministers of the gospell ordeined not as Christ to sacrifice to God but to féede Gods people with his worde and sacraments must haue an other name according to the scripture and our English word expressing that in scripture is the name of Elders But you by confusion of these sundry names doo séeke confusion of the things and as théeues are wont to change the markes of thinges which they haue stollen so you to make the Priesthood of Christ séeme your owne doo change names as markes of thinges which they signifie For in stéede of that which we call an Elder you would haue a Priest that your Massing Priestes may be accounted Priestes after the order of Melchisedec as Christ is a Priest and so your sacrifice of the Masse be thought the soueraine sacrifice as your Maister calleth it wherein Christ is offered vnto God his father In the which conueiance if you painted it with nought but colours of your owne the matter were lesse For the abusing of one name applied vnto sundry thinges was a common shift of sophisters among the heathens And you are to be borne with if hauing no better cause then they had sometimes you aduenture on the shiftes that they did But to abuse the credit of the Apostles to this sophistrie and say that they gaue the name of Priestes to Pastours of the Church of Christ that is a faulte that cannot be excused For seeing our language doth meane by Priests sacrificers which in their language are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and they neuer gaue the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Pastours of the Christian Church it foloweth that they gaue them not the name of Priests Or if you replie they gaue them that name because they called theÌ„ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence our English name of Priests is deriued yet you cannot say they called them Priestes as the name of Priest hath a relation to sacrifice and therfore that name is nothing to the Masse which you would proue by it For so the word Priest must yet haue two meaninges the one of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the other of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Wherof the one is giuen by the Apostles but doth not implie autoritie to sacrifice The other doth imply autoritie to sacrifice but is not giuen by the Apostles Hart. But sith the name of Priest is properly deriued from the word presbyter or as it is in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not only in English but in other languages both French and Italian why did not your translatours kéepe this according to the Gréeke and deuise an other for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is sacerdos if they would néedes distinguish them by different names For it is as I said a notorious folly to apply willingly the word Priest to sacerdos and to take it from presbyter whereof it is deriued properly Rainoldes If our translatours had béene Lords of wordes and might haue forced men to take them in what sense they would then had you spoken reason For he whom others foloweâ— in our English translations did note that if Antichrist had not deceyued vs with vnknowne and straunge termes to bring vs into confusion superstitious blindenesse a Priest that is a sacrificer as Aaron was a Priest and sacrificed for the people should haue had some other name in English then Priest Which he spake in respect that the name of Priest as it came from presbyter betokening a Minister of the new testament should not haue beene giuen to the Ministers of the olde who differ as in function so in name by scripture But you in whose eyes our folly is notorious for that we giue the name of Priest to sacerdos and take it from presbyter whereof it is deriued properly what say you I pray for your owne translation in the fourth of the Actes where it is saide of Peter and Iohn the Apostles that they were men vnlettered and of the vulgar sort Hart. Why What faute finde you with our translation in that Rainoldes I finde not any faute but I would know of you why you call them men of the vulgar sort and not rather idiotes sith in the Gréeke text the worde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Latin idiotae Hart. That were a profane terme for the Apostles who were indued with heauenly wisedome Rainoldes It were so in deede But if the deriuation of wordes must be folowed in translating autours that terme should haue béene giuen them For the name of idiot is properly deriued from the Gréeke or Latin not onely in English but in other languages both French and Italian and if that helpe the Spanish Dutch and Syriake too Yea it cometh neerer in euery one of these to the Latin worde of the olde translation which you pretend to folow then the name of Priest in any of them doth to presbyter Hart. But the worde in English hath not the same meaning that it hath in Latin and in translating thinges the sense must â—e kept Nor is it to bee marked so much whence a worde is properly deriued as what it doth signifie Now it doth signify that which vsually men vnderstand by it For the consent of men taking a worde for this or that doth make it to signify that for which they take it as Aristotle sheweth Who frameth thereupon a rule that we must call thinges by those names by which the common people calleth them Wherefore sith the name of idiot in English is taken for a foole or sot and the Latin idiota where it is vsed in scripture doth signify the vnlearned such as the vulgar sort of men we haue translated it the vulgar and not idiot according to the meaning not the deriuing of it Neither may you therefore charge vs with varying from the Latin text which as we pretend so we do folow faithfully For whereas S. Paul saith to the Corinthians If thou blesse in the spirit how shall he that supplyeth the place of the vulgar say Amen vpon thy blessing in
the Ministers doth shew And herein their dealing is so much the worse because they set it out with the name of Erasmus as if he meant by sacrificing the saying of Masse which is farre from him For although by reason he thought that the word doth properly signifie not simply to minister but to minister in holy thinges as they who serue in the Priesthood therfore he did translate it that the Prophets Doctours in the Church at Antioche were sacrificing to the Lord yet he saith that hereby is meant that they imployed their giftes to Gods glory and the saluation of the Church the Prophets in propheciing the Doctours in teaching the doctrine of the Gospell So he vnderstandeth nothing els by sacrificing then others doo by ministring or rather then the scripture doth as it is obserued out of the circumstances of the text by the best of your own interpreters Who séeing that the men were Prophets and Doctours which are said to haue béene ministring to the Lord thereupon do gather that they serued him in executing their owne ministerie that is to say the ministerie of prophecying and teaching In which sort the Gréeke fathers doo expound it also what meaneth the word ministring say they it meaneth preaching Wherefore if the name of Liturgie were taken hereof by the Gréeke fathers as your Rhemists adde it is a good hearing but so much the lesse will it proue your Masâ—e For if they vnderstood preaching by ministring when the worde is spoken of Prophets and Doctours it is the more likely that when they applyed it to the ministerie of the Pastours â— seruice of the Church they meant the publike prayers and other holy functions which we doo call Diuine seruice As in truth they did For that which we call euening prayer they called the euening Liturgie as you would say the seruice doon to God at euening and in the verie Liturgie that is called Chrysostomes because he made some part of it belike not all for himselfe therein is prayed too but in that very Liturgie the word is applied to the Churches seruice in the same maner as it is to the seruice which Angels doo to God And I hope you will not affirme that the Angels doo say Masse in heauen Wherefore howsoeuer Erasmus did translate it after the phrase of his time wherein the Churches seruice was commonly called Missa the ministerie mentioned in the Actes of the Apostles doth not proue that sacrifice of which you would inferre your Priesthood As for the place of Esay in which it is writen you shall be called the Priests of God the Ministers of our God shal it be said vnto you the course of the text doth seeme to meane by Priestes all the seruants of God whom Peter calleth an holy Priesthood to offer vp spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. For the words are spoken as in Christes person to all the faithfull and repentant who should be trees of righteousnes to build vp the Church and thereupon are promised that their enimies shall serue them and they shall serue God But in an other place of Esay I graunt the name of Priest is giuen to Pastors and Elders where speaking of the calling and conuersion of the Gentiles And of them saith he will I take for Priests for Leuites saith the Lord. Hart. S. Ierom doth expound the former place of them also But all is one to my purpose For séeing that Pastours and Elders as you terme them are called Priests in scripture and the name of Priest implyeth you confesse autoritie to sacrifice it foloweth that Pastours and Elders are Priestes autorized to sacrifice Now the Priest that hath autoritie to sacrifice is he whom you do call a Masse-priest Wherefore both Masse and Priests are proued by the scripture Rainoldes Why Thinke you that euerie Christian man and woman is a Masse-priest because the name of Priests is giuen them by scripture in respect of spirituall sacrifices which they must offer vnto God Hart. No. Because the sacrifices that they must offer are spirituall and are called sacrifices by a borowed kinde of spéech and not properly But the sacrifice which is offered to God in the Masse is an external visible true and proper sacrifice as it is declared by the Councell of Trent So that the Priestes ordeined to offer this sacrifice are properly called Priestes wheras other Christians are called so improperly according to the nature of the sacrifices which they offer Rainoldes Then the name of Priestes alleaged out of Esay doth not proue your Masse-priestes For he doth call the Ministers of the gospell Priestes in respect of the spirituall sacrifices which they must offer And that appéereth by the words going next before in which the Lord declaring euen by S. Ieroms iudgement too that he would call the Iewes to the same honour that by the name of Priests is signified and they saith he shall bring the Gentiles for an offering to the Lord as the children of Israel offer in a cleane vessell in the house of the Lord. So to bring the Gentiles as an offering to the Lord is that for which they who do bring such offerings are named Priestes and Leuites But the offering vp of the Gentiles vnto him is a spirituall sacrifice made by the Ministers of Christ as Paule sheweth when they conuert the Gentiles through the preaching of the gospell The sacrifice therefore in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes by Esay is a spirituall sacrifice And as euerie faithfull person is a Priest because we must offer each his owne bodie a liuing sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God so that name is giuen to Ministers of the gospell because they are called to offer vp the bodies of other men in like sort Wherefore if priuate Christians are not Masse-priestes because their sacrifices are spirituall then sith the Ministers must offer vp the like sacrifices it foloweth by your answere that nether they are Masse-priestes Hart. The Ministers of the gospell must offer vp the like sacrifices I deny it not And in that respect it is true that nether they nor priuate Christians are proued to bee Masse-priestes But there is an other an externall sacrifice that Ministers must offer also euen that which our Lord in the prophet Malachie doth call a cleane oblation and saith that in euerie place it is sacrificed and offered to his name because his name is great among the Gentiles And that is the sacrifice in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes properly and are indéede Masse-priests For the cleane oblation is the sacrifice of the Masse wherein the body and blood of Christ is offered vp vnto God his father as the Councell sheweth an oblation that cannot be defiled by the vnworthines or wickednes of them who offer it Rainoldes What And be
this that Malachie meaneth doth succéede the sacrifices of the Iewes and is offered in their stéede but praier fasting and the workes of charitie doo not succéede any but are ioined and coopled to euerie kinde of sacrifices Fifthly our workes chiefely in the iudgement of heretikes are defiled howsoeuer they séeme beautifull but this Prophetical offering is cleane of it selfe and so cleane of it selfe in comparison of the olde sacrifices that it cannot be polluted anie way by vs or by the woorst Priests For here in our testament they cannot choose all the best to them selues and offer to the Lord for sacrifice the féeble the lame and the sicke as before in the old because there is now one sacrifice so appointed that it cannot be chaunged so cleane that no worke of ours can distaine it Finally the Fathers and all that euer haue expounded this place of purpose catholikely haue expounded it of the sacrifice of the Masse yea then when they speake of the sacrifice of praier yea or of spirituall sacrifice Wherein the heretikes deceiue and are deceiued For the Fathers call our sacrifice some times an offering of prayer and a spirituall sacrifice because it is made with blessing and with prayer mysticall because the victime that is here hath not a grosse carnall and bloody consecration or sacrification as had the victimes of the Iewes Sée Tertullian in the third booke against Marcion in the end Iustin in Trypho Irenaeus in the fourth booke the two and thirtieth chapter Ierom on the eighth of Zacharie Austin in the first booke against the aduersarie of the law and the eightenth chapter albeit in the second booke against the letters of Petilian he doth expound it of the sacrifice of prayse Cyprian also in the first booke the sixtenth chapter against the Iewes Cyrill in the booke of worshipping in spirit and truth Eusebius in the first booke of preparation of the gospell Damascen in the fourth booke of the Catholike faith and the fourtenth chapter Theodoret vpon the first chapter of Malachie Thus farre D. Allen. By whom you may perceiue that we bring the right opinion of the Fathers with many other reasons out of the circumstances of the text it selfe to proue that the cleane offering in the Prophet Malachie doth signifie the sacrifice of the blessed Masse Rainoldes Nay I may perceiue that D. Allen bringeth the names of the Fathers though Damascen a childe in respect of the rest farre in yeares beneth them farther in iudgement but their names he bringeth he bringeth not their right opiniō For if their opiniō be searched examined it maketh nothing for him And therfore he doth onely name them quote them Which point of his wisdome your Rhemists folow much Many other reasons he bringeth I graunt besides the names of Fathers but it had béene better for him not to bring them For Tertullian Iustin Irenaeus Ierom Austin Cyprian Cyrill Eusebius Damascen and Theodoret would make a faire shew with their names alone if the other reasons and they were set a sunder Now being matched in a band together and agréeing no better then Ephraim with Manasses and Manasses with Ephraim who did eate vp one another they marre the matter with their discorde That as the Emperour Adrian saide when he was dying The multitude of physicians hath cast away the Emperour so may you complaine the multitude of reasons hath cast away the proofe which your Masse did hope to procure by Malachie Hart. Not so But their multitude helpeth one an other For many thinges which singled by them selues are weake are strong if they be ioyned and a three fold coard is not easily broken Rainoldes This is a roape of sande rather then a coard it will not hang together For whereas D. Allen doth thus alleage Malachie after your olde translation in euery place there is sacrificed and offered a cleane offering to my name saith the Lord of hostes the Hebrew text and after the Hebrew the Gréeke of the seuentie interpreters which the Fathers folow doo set it downe thus in euery place there is incense offered to my name and a cleane offering Now the worde incense is vsed in the scripture simply for prayers in the fifth chapter of the Reuelation where the golden vials of the foure and twentie Elders are full of odours or incenses to keepe the worde which are the prayers of the Saintes And so doo the Fathers expound the same in Malachie Wherefore the first reason which you rehersed of D. Allens that the worde to sacrifice being vsed by it selfe without a terme abridging it is taken in the scripture alwayes properly for the act of outward sacrifice is false both in it selfe and by the iudgement of the Fathers For that worde of his is incense in the Fathers according to the scripture But incense in the scripture is taken for prayers figuratiuely By the iudgement therefore and exposition of the Fathers that worde doth not inferre the sacrifice of the Masse but our spirituall sacrifices Hart. In déede S. Iohn expoundeth in the Apocalypse those odours to be the prayers of the Saintes But thereby it is plain as we note vpon it that the Saintes in heauen offer vp the prayers of faithfull and holy persons in earth called here Saintes and in the scripture often vnto Christ. And among so many diuine and vnserchable mysteries set down without exposition it pleased God yet that the Apostle him selfe should open this one point vnto vs that these odours be the laudes and prayers of the faithfull ascending and offered vp to God as incense by the Saintes in heauen That so you may haue no excuse of your errour that the Saintes haue no knowledge of our affaires or desires Rainoldes You are too too flitting on euery occasion from the present point in question to others And yet if we should enter into that controuersie about the worship of Saintes that honour which you giue them would finde no succour here For neither doth it follow that we must pray to them though they did offer vp our prayers neither is it certaine that the Saintes in heauen onely are represented in the foure and twentie Elders neither if they be can you proue that the prayers of Saintes which they offer are other mens prayers they may bee their owne And for my part I doo rather thinke that the foure and twentie Elders represent all the Saintes and faithfull both in heauen and earth who offer vp their owne prayers as incense to God For after that S. Iohn had saide that the odours are the prayers of the Saintes he addeth that they sang a new song saying Thou art worthie to take the booke and to open the seales thereof because thou wast killed and hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood out of euery kinred and tongue and people and nation and hast made vs Kinges and Priests vnto our God and
sacrifice spoken of in Malachie is one and therefore betokeneth not spirituall sacrifices the which are as many as there are Christian good workes Hart. Why Because the text of the Prophet Malachie saith that there is offered a cleane oblation or offering as you call it And offering is spoken of one not of many For els he should haue saide offerings not offering Rainoldes So. And doo you thinke that he who said to God sacrifice offering thou art not delited with or as you translate it host and oblation thou wouldest not did meane the Masse by that host Hart. The Masse No. He meant the hostes and oblations of the old law For they are the wordes of the Prophet Dauid spoken of the legall and carnall sacrifices of the Iewes Rainoldes The Iewes Nay the text of the Prophet Dauid saith that God mislyked host and oblation it saith not hostes and oblations Wherefore sith he speaketh of one not of many and the carnall sacrifices of the Iewes were many but the sacrifice of the Masse is one as you say it séemeth he should meane that A point some what dangerous for the host which your Priests lift vp to be adored More dangerous for them who liue by lifting it vp Hart. Our adoration of the host is good in spite of all heretikes and not reproued by the Prophet For although he saith host and oblation thou wouldest not yet is it plaine he meaneth the sacrifices of the Iewes by a figure of spéech in which a part is vsed for the whole and one for many as host and oblation for hostes and oblations Rainoldes Then Allens second reason is not worth a shoobuckle to proue that the sacrifice of the Masse is meant by the oblation in Malachie For the word oblation or offering which he vseth in his owne language is vsed likewise still as of one not as of many through all the olde testament Wherefore if the sacrifices of the Iewes were many which neuerthelesse are called not offerings but offering the same worde applyed to the sacrifices of Christians can not inforce them to be one Howbeit were they one to graunt you that by a supposall yet might that one sacrifice be a spirituall sacrifice and so your Masse no whit the neerer For as the Prophet Esay saith that the Gentiles shal be an offering to the Lord vsing the same worde that the Prophet Malachie so the Apostle Paul exhorteth them with Esay to present their bodies a liuing sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God speaking of their sundry sacrifices as one as also in a mysterie we that are many are one body But without supposall the course of the text doth import rather that the Prophet saying there is offered an offering doth meane not one but many by that figure which you touched as by an other figure he saith it is offered meaning it shall be offered For the Lord declaring his detestation of the sacrifices of the Iewish Priests saith that he will not accept an offering at their hand but the Gentiles shall offer to him a cleane offering which he meaneth of the contrarie that he will accept And this he sheweth farther where touching it againe he saith it shall be offered vnto him in righteousnesse and shal be acceptable to him Now the offering that is acceptable to God from the Gentiles in the new testament is all sortes of spirituall sacrifices and good workes By the offering therefore mentioned in Malachie there are many sacrifices meant not one onely Which yet your olde translation maketh more euident opening the meaning of the Hebrew word by terming it sacrifices They shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in righteousenesse Wherefore sith our offering that should please God in the time of the gospell is sacrifices by the iudgement of your old translation which you in no case may refuse and sacrifices can not be meant of the Masse for that is one sacrifice but of spirituall sacrifices it may for they are many as Allens second reason saith you see we must conclude on his owne principles that the cleane offering which Malachie writeth of doth signifie the spirituall sacrifices of Christians and not the sacrifice of the Masse The third and fourth reasons haue greater shew but lesser weight For though it be true that spirituall sacrifices of praying to God and doing good to men are common to the Iewes with vs and therefore may seeme not to be the offering spoken of in Malachie which beside that it is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles it should succeed also the sacrifices of the Iewes and be offered in their steede yet if we marke the difference that the scriptures put betweene the Iewish worship of God in the law and the Christian in the gospel that séeming wil melt as snow before the sunne For in the law of Moses the Iewes to the intent that both their redemption by the death of Christ dutie of thankfulnesse which they did owe to God for it might stil be set before them as in a figure shadow were willed to offer beastes without spot blemish in sacrifice with ceremonies thereto annexed and to offer them in the place that God should choose which was the citie of Ierusalem and the sanctuarie that is to say the temple built therein Now Christ in the gospell when that was fulfilled which the temple of Ierusalem and sacrifices did represent shewed that the time of reformation was come and remoued that worship both in respect of the place and of the maner of it For as it was prophecied that he should destroy the citie and the sanctuary and cause the sacrifice and offering to cease so him selfe taught that now the Father would not be worshipped in Ierusalem nor as the Iewes did worship him but he would be worshipped in spirit and truth The Christian worship therefore that did succéede the Iewish doth differ from it in two pointes one that it worshippeth God not in Ierusalem but in all places an other that it worshippeth him in spirit and truth in spirit without the carnall ceremonies rites in truth without the shadowes of the law of Moses The which sort of worship séeing hee requireth of the true worshippers that is of all the Saintes his seruants and in the new testament the Gentiles by the Gospell are called to be Saintes the worship that is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles is the true spirituall worship of God the reasonable seruing of him by godlines and good workes in righteousnes and true holines euen the offering vp of spirituall sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. And thus you may sée the weakenes of those cauils which are brought to proue that our spirituall sacrifices cannot be the offering whereof God in Malachie saith it shall be offered
Rainoldes Alas And sée you not how giddily the Councell doth bring in that reason that because our nature doth neede outward helpes therefore some things should be pronounced softly some aloude For the very chiefest of the outwarde helpes which God hath ordeined to raise our mindes from earth to heauen is the hearing of his word His word is rehersed in the Epistle the Gospell the Canon and other partes of the Masse The Masse you forbid to be saide in the vulgar or mother tongue of the people so that if all were cryed as loude as Baals seruice the people could not vnderstand it Yet not content with that you will a part of it to bee saide with a soft voice that the poore soules may not as much as heare it Wherefore the reason which your Councell maketh for that Massing-rite is this in effect that because the blindenesse and coldnesse of men doth neede to be lightened and warmed by Gods worde which is rehearsed in the Masse therefore a part of it must be pronounced with a soft voyce that they may not heare it part with a lowder but in a strange toong that although they heare it they may not vnderstand it And was there not a mightie spirit of giddines in the Princes of Trent that made them write so droonkenly Yea with a curse to seale it too Hart. They curse him who saith that the rite of the Roman Church whereby part of the Canon and the words of consecration are vttered with a soft voice is to be condemned or that the Masse ought to be celebrated onely in the vulgar toung And great reason why Rainoldes No dout For as the Iewes when they could not iustifie their wilful withstanding of the Sonne of God agréeed that if any man confessed him to be Christ he should be excommunicated so by like reason your Iudaizers of Rome doo banne and curse vs when they cannot iustifie their impudent customes and corruptions against vs. Hart. The customes are Catholike and religious rites which they do establish with the seueritie of the curse Rainoldes Catholike and religious to kéepe the Saintes of God from hearing of Gods word Catholike and religious to haue the Church-seruice in a tongue which the Church the faithfull people vnderstand not Hart. Yea Catholike and religious if you marke the reasons which they giue thereof For of the one they shew that the Church hath ordeined it of the other that the Fathers thought it not expedient it should be had in the vulgar toung Rainoldes Not the ancient Fathers Why they are cleere for it and yonger Fathers too Yea Fathers both and children I meane the whole Churches of al nations in the old time of many euen till this day as namely of the Syrians Armenians Slauonians Moscouites and Ethiopians Hart. What so euer Churches or Fathers doo or haue doon it seemed not expedient to the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Trent And they being Bishops and Pastours of the Church might take order for rites and ceremonies of the Church by your owne confessions Rainoldes They might But our confessions withall should haue taught them that as they may prouide for things to be doon with comelines and in order so their rites and ceremonies must be all to edifie Which the Trent-fathers obserued not in this rite of hauing the seruice in a straunge tongue as themselues acknowlege For they write expressely that although the Masse containe great instruction of the faithful people yet the Fathers haue not thought it expedient that it should be soong or said euerie where in the vulgar tongue Whereof this is the meaning to open it in plainer words that the corrupt custome of the Church of Rome praying and reading the scriptures in a straunge tongue in deede doth not edifie yet must stand for policie to keepe their Churches credit For if they should yéeld that they haue erred in one thing men would dout perhaps that they might erre in more And this doo they farther bewray by the other point of vttering the words of consecration secretly that the faithfull may not heare them For in saying that the Church hath ordeined that rite they doo closely graunt that Christ ordeined it not Nay their owne men teach that the example of Christ and the order of his Apostles with the Fathers too is manifest against it Beside that in calling it a rite of the Church of Rome they signifie that other Churches do not vse it no not the Greeke Church And yet against the practise of Churches of Fathers of Apostles and of Christ they say that a dumbe shew which crept in by custome was ordeined by our holy mother the Church and as men resolued to wallow in their owne vomit they curse him whosoeuer he be that shall condemne it Hart. Although Christ we grant did vtter the words of consecration openly and the Apostles and Fathers and other Churches also haue kept the same rite yet the Church of Rome is not to be condemned for taking order to the contrarie For rites may be changed as it shall séeme best to them who gouerne the Church and there was great reason why they should change this to weete least those words so holy and sacred should grow into contempt whiles all in a maner knowing them through common vse would sing them in the streetes and other places not conuenient In the which respect perhaps they thought good also that the Masse and Mattins and all the Church-seruice should rather be in Latin then in the vulgar tongue For of familiar vse there groweth contempt and men are wont to wonder at things which they know not thing◠common are despised Rainoldes A great ouersight of our Sauiour Christ who willed his Apostles to speake that in the light which he had told them in darknes and what they heard in the eare that to preach on the howses For men would despise his gospel if they knew it as they doo meate who haue it And what meant S. Paule to disclose the words of consecration to the Corinthians Yea in their vulgar tongue too And that with instruction to shew foorth th◠Lords death vntill he came as oft as they receiued the sacrament Did he go about to bring the words of consecration and death of Christ into contempt Or was not Innocentius the Pope borne yet of whom he might haue learned that they must be vttered not onely in a strange tongue but also closely and in silence least men if they heare them do know them through vse and sing them in the streetes But wil you sée Your Fathers of the Trent-councel were ouershot a litle when they ordeined that Pastours and all who haue cure of soules should often times expound by them selues or by others somewhat of those things which are read in the Masse
keepe the name so we kéepe the meaning of the name too and therefore the thing it selfe with S. Paul But turne it to your Masse and it is very true For in S. Ambroses time the Christian people hauing publike prayers in many Churches dayly did therewithall dayly receiue the holy sacrament of Christes body and bloud Now because sundry were at other partes of diuine seruice for whom it was not lawful to receiue the sacrament as nouices in the faith who were not yet baptized and such as Church discipline remoued from the communion therefore they were wont after prayers made and scriptures read and taught to dimisse the rest who might not communicate the faithful onely staying to receue together And this dimission of them was noted by the word missa vsed for missio that is a sending away or licensing to depart Whence it came to passe that the very name of missa was geuen to that part of the seruice and they were said missam facere who celebrated the communion as S. Ambrose did Wherefore though your sacrifice keepeth the name of Masse that S. Ambrose vsed yet doth it not keepe the thing meant thereby For nether send you them away who receiue not and many a Masse is said that hath no communicants Hart. But we wish as the Councell of Trent hath declared that the faithful who stand by at Masse would communicate Wherefore if they doe not it is through their owne default and not through ours Rainoldes But it is your faute that you send not them away from the communion who communicate not And herein your Councell doth vary from S. Ambrose and other ancient Fathers that it alloweth non-communicants to be standers by For in the primitiue Church yea in S. Gregories time who for naming Masse too is made a Masse-priest by your Doctor the Deacon was accustomed to bid them depart who did not communicate Wherefore séeing that they meant the Communion by the name of Masse and termed it so because they sent away the non-communicants from it you who doo not so may see how fond a reason D. Allen maketh for your Masse and Masse-priestes when he sheweth Ambrose Gregorie and Leo to haue vsed that name Then which there can be nothing in deede more against him For if the name open the nature of the thing as Aristotle sheweth then is not your Masse the masse of the Fathers because it is not missa that is a dimissing and sending away of them who receiue not Harte Nay it is not onely the name of the Masse whereon he relieth but the thing it selfe For who knoweth not saith he that S. Gregory the great was a Masse-priest who hath the very word the maner and the partes thereof so expresly in his Epistles who sent all holy furniture and ornamentes for the same to our Blessed Apostle Rainoldes What to S. Paul the Apostle of the Gentiles Hart. I meane to S. Austin the Apostle of the Englishmen Rainoldes I know no such Apostle if you meane of that sort of which Christ gaue Apostles as the maiestie of the words our Blessed Apostle should import But the ornaments and furniture which S. Gregorie sent to Austin the Moonke were not Massing-vestiments no more then the vessels and clothes that you mentioned before out of Optatus and other ancient Fathers which serued for the Communion As for the maner and partes of the Masse which he hath you say in his Epistles so expresly all that which he hath is that there was said praise ye the Lord and the clergie saying Lord haue mercy vpon vs the people answered them with the same wordes and Christ haue mercy vpon vs was saide in like sort and the Lordes prayer with the prayer called the Canon was saide ouer the offering and after consecration the Communion was ministred Now compare the maner and partes of your Masse with this of S. Gregorie and they are as like it as is an * ape vnto a man For in outward gestures and shape of face body that is in shew of actions and forme of wordes prayers yours resemble it But the soule reason as it were of it which is that the people did pray with the Pastour nor onely pray together but communicate too that your Masse hath not Hart. They pray and communicate both in affection though they receyue not alwayes the communion bodily nor vnderstand the prayers Rainoldes But to communicate is to eate and drinke which the people did in S. Gregories time and they vnderstoode the prayers which were made that they might say Amen thereto Now the Priest hath swalowed vp their right in the one and the Clerke in the other Hart. But the Canon of the Masse which is the chiefest part we haue in like sorte as S. Gregorie had And therein the worship of Saintes and prayers for the dead where of there is no shadow at all in your Communion neither can you abide them The greater wrong you doo both to him and vs to make as though you folowed that which he practised and to say that our Masse is no lyker his then is an ape vnto a man Rainoldes We folow him in that wherein he folowed Christ and the folowers of Christ. Himselfe beareth witnesse that the Apostles neither vsed nor made that Canon but I know not what Scholer Wherefore though a Scholer presenteth the merits and prayers of the Saintes before the throne of God desiring helpe for their sakes and prayeth for the faithful who do rest in Christ that they may haue a place of cooling peace and light yet because our Maister teacheth that himselfe alone wrought all righteousnesse that we might finde fauour through his desert and intercession and sheweth that the dead who dye in him are blessed and rest from their labours in light peace and comfort we folow not S. Gregories Canon in those pointes but answere him with Christ from the beginning it was not so And you who thinke your Masse better then an ape in respect of his because it resembleth his in the Canon the chiefest part of it may know that it resembleth his therein no better then doth an ape a man when he sweareth by the crosse of his ten bones For the Canon also beside that the people did heare vnderstand it recordeth their receyuing of the body blood as doo the other praiers too after the communion Which being as it were the soule and reason of it your Masse which hath it not is but an apish counterfeit of his for all the Canon Nay it is in déede so much the more apish because it hath his wordes and not the meaning of them Hart. You grate on the Communion still as if the Canon and all S.
most for his Apologie the prayers which the Ministers for so Eusebius termeth them did offer vnto God may well be vnderstoode by those sacrifices too But if hee meant onely their offerings of the remembrance of Christes death in the sacrament as that which ensueth of mysticall consecrations may séeme to import yet himselfe declareth by the word vnblooddy that he called them sacrifices not properly but by a figure as meaning not that Christ is put to death there in deede but in a mysterie To be short he and all the other Fathers both Gréeke and Latin are so fully and plainly of one mind in this point that the Master of the Sentences in his abridgement of Diuinitie gathered out of them proposing this question whether that which the Priest doth exequute be called a sacrifice properly resolueth that it is not But that which is offered and consecrated by the Priest is called a sacrifice saith he and an offering because it is a remembrance and representation of the true sacrifice and the holy offering made on the altar of the crosse as he prooueth by the Fathers Wherefore sith the sacrifice offered in the Masse is a true and proper sacrifice as you define it and that of the Fathers is not a true sacrifice but called so improperly it remayneth to be concluded that the Fathers nether said Masse nor were Masse-priests And so to make an end with that which you began with the cause is iust and holy why we call presbyteros not Priests but Elders For sith the name of Priest hath relation to sacrifice men by the sacrifice vnderstand your Masse and your Masse is a monster of abomination prophaning the blood of Christ condemned by the Scriptures vnknowen to the Fathers detestable in the sight of God and of the godly the charge of the Lord not to lay a stumbling block before the blind might haue remoued that name from Ministers of the gospel yea although they had bene ordeined to sacrifice much more sith they are not but as other Christians The name of Elders therefore expressing that word whereby the Scripture calleth them as it is confessed by your owne authentical translating it so we could not but allow it Chiefly sith the very necessitie of opening our meaning vnto others which is the end of languages required different words for the different thinges of presbyter and sacerdos For how will you translate that saying of S. Austin that S. Iohns words they shal be Priests of God of Christ are meant of all Christians non de solis episcopis presbyteris qui propriè iam vocantur in ecclesia sacerdotes that is as we translate not of Bishops and Elders only which now are called peculiarly Priests in the Church But how would you translate it Hart. There is a defect in our English tounge that we can not translate it so perspicuously as it is in Latin because we haue but one word for presbyter and sacerdos Rainoldes Then you should not play the dog in the manger nether your selues mending the defectes of our tounge nor suffering vs to mend them For if a man translate it as your Rhemists doo not of Bishops and Priests only which are properly now in the Church called Priests how shal the English reader vnderstand his meaning which Priests be called Priests and whether Bishops be Priests too Nay to come to that which must néedes enforce you to translate sacerdos otherwise then presbyter S. Austin hauing brought against Iulian an heretike the testimonies of the Fathers Irenaeus Cyprian Reticius Olympius Hilarie Ambrose Innocentius Nazianzene Basil Chrysostome doth name them sacerdotes that is as you translate it Priests is it not Hart. Yes We haue no other English for sacerdos Rainoldes Where S. Austin addeth then touching Ierom that nether he must be contemned because he was presbyter what here shal presbyter be Wil you make S. Austins spéech so vnsauory as to tell the heretike that he ought to reuerence Irenaeus Cyprian Ambrose and the rest because they were Priests and not contemne Ierom because he was a Priest Hart. Nay I would translate here presbyter a Priest but for sacerdotes I would say Bishops For that is S. Austins meaning in these places where he doth name them sacerdotes Rainoldes So your translatour doth But the word Bishop is our English of episcopus And what if episcopus chaunce to come in too with sacerdos and presbyter How will you expresse them As where in the Canons collected by Isidore touching the order of keeping Councels he saith that sacerdotes first must enter in and after them presbyteri your Lawier noteth on it Vide vt sacerdotes vocet episcopos veteri more quem ignorantes plerique presbyteros sacerdotes appellari promiscuè stuliè opinantur Wherein if you translate sacerdotes Bishops and presbyteros Priests then your Lawier saith which were a wise speech that Isidore calleth Bishops Bishops after the old maner which many not knowing do folishly think that Priests are called Bishops indifferently Hart. Such sentences cannot be well expressed in English but the Latin words must be kept in them Rainoldes But it is behoofefull for our English men to haue them in English that they may know your Latin abuses of Rome For this is meant thereby that the ancient writers are wont to note Bishops by the name of Priests which many not knowing doo foolishly think that the name of Priests is vsed indifferently for the same that Elders A lesson for your Rhemists who make them all one although not of foolishnes so much as of fraude to the intent that Elders that is to say Ministers of the new testament may be thought Priests that is to say Ministers ordeined to sacrifice as your Masse-priests be For colour and maintenance of the which errour the countenance of proofe that you pretend out of the Fathers is the lesse by thus much that they were accustomed to geue the name of Priests not generally to Elders but to Bishops onely Wherefore to auoide confusion of things which the confusion of words might ingender in that we are to treate off I will by your leaue call presbyter an Elder as our translations doo that I may distinguish it from the name of Priest both as it is vsed by you for a Masse-priest and as it is vsed by the Fathers for a Bishop So to come at length back againe to that which I was in hand with of the second sort of the Bishops of Rome that when they were growen to their fattest plight they were but Archbishops of a Princely diocese not vniuersall Popes and Patriarkes of the whole world the Elders as I said ordeined by the Apostles in euery Church through euery citie chose one amongst themselues whom they called Bishop to be the President of their companie for the better
God also Therefore the ciuill magistrate is ordeined to gouerne in duties touching God and man Hart. The good that we must follow and euill that wée must flie compriseth duties to them both But that which the ciuill magistrate must deale with is good and euill in thinges of men not of God in ciuill cases not religion Rainoldes The scripture sayth the contrary For it sheweth that offenders in cases of religion idolaters blasphemers false prophets profaners of holy thinges are to bée punished But the punishment of these is committed to him who beareth not the sword in vaine Then is the ciuill magistrate to punish euill doers in things concerning God Now wherein he hath to punish and reward therein he hath to gouerne He hath to gouerne therefore in things concerning God and man Hart. Why sayth the scripture then that the high Priest the Priest not the Prince is ordeined for meÌ„ in those things that pertaine to God Rainoldes To do them M. Hart as it followeth in the text that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sinnes For this is the peculiar dutie of the Priests Which if the Prince meddle with as Ozias did who would haue burnt incense vpon the altar of incense a thing enioyned to Priests only then transgresseth he the bounds of his office and prouoketh vengeance of the Lord vpon him But to prouide by ciuil punishments and orders that Priests do their dutie in things concerning God nor only Priests but people too it is the Princes charge and so is he ordeined to deale in things of God For when Michah had an idols chappell in his house with a vestiment and images in those dayes sayth the scripture there was no King in Israel but euery man did that which was good in his own eyes And agayne In those dayes there was no King in Israel when the men of Dan got that idolatrous stuffe with an idolatrous Priest and went a whooring after it Which being sayd in like sort when adulterie was committed and with adulterie murder doth shew that as the subiects should haue bene restrayned from murder and adulterie so from idolatrie too by the Princes sword sith all these sinnes raigned not for want of a Priest but of a King in Israell And this appéereth farder by the examples of the Kings of whom some are touched for that they tooke not away the hie places some are commended for taking them away Yea King Ezekias commanding first the Leuites and Priests to doe their dutie afterward the people to come and serue the Lord finally theÌ„ both to reforme themselues for maintainance of religion is said to haue cleaued to the Lord therein and kept his commandements which lie commaunded Moses A manifest proofe that whereas the King is willed by Moses to keepe al the words of the law to do them the Lord meant thereby that he ought to kéepe them not onely as a priuate man but as a King by séeking and prouiding that all his subiects did their duties both to God and man Wherefore sith the supremacie which we giue our Prince in thinges ecclesiasticall is to deale therein as Ezekias not Ozias not to preach the word minister the sacraments celebrate the prayers or practise discipline of the Church but to prouide that these thinges be done as they ought by them whem God hath called thereto we giue to Caesar no more then is Caesars The greater is your Maisters fault and his coÌ„federates who reproue the oth of the Queenes supremacie as wicked and vngodly For euery lawfull Prince is the supreme gouernour of his owne subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporal Wherfore to be sworne to this of her Maiestie is but to acknowledge her the lawfull Prince And the Parlament might take an oth of English men for Elisabeth our Quéene against the Pope vsurping part of her right as well as Iehoiada of the men of Iuda for Ioas their King against Athalia that vsurped his State Hart. My Maister layeth open the weakenesse of the grounds which you pretend for Princes right out of the Scriptures For Caesar was an Heathen when Christ his Apostles did teach the faithful to obey him So that if he were supreme gouernour of his subiects in things spirituall and temporall then must hée be obeyed as in temporall matters so in spirituall too Rainoldes True And therefore Paule appealed to him as knowing that the Iewes ought to haue obeyed him if hée had iudged with the truth Hart. The Iewes had accused Paule of sedition as well as of heresie And therefore his case was not spirituall méerely But if the Heathen Emperour were to be obeyed in spirituall matters then must the Christians haue sacrificed to idols For so he did commaund them Rainoldes Why If the heathen Emperour had commaunded them to beare false witnesse against their neighbour or to condemne the innocent thereby as Iezabel did must Christians haue obeyed him Hart. No because in things forbidden by God that is a generall rule that we must rather obey God then men Rainoldes Then as the Heathen Emperour must not be obeyed if he commaunded things vniust and yet was supreme gouernour you grant in temporal matters so in spiritual matters might he haue that soueraintie yet not to be obeyed if hée commaunded things vngodly Hart. But Princes are so mightie that if they commaund them men wil obey them commonly As wheÌ„ the King of Babylon commanded men to worship the image of gold there were but thrée who disobeyed him Rainoldes The better were those thrée tried and through their triall God glorified Wherefore though Princes coÌ„manâ— not things godly as nether honest alwaies we must not therfore robbe them of soueraintie therein but helpe them with our praiers that they may gouerne vs in godlinesse honestie Hart. Yet experieÌ„ce sheweth that if they haue this soueraintie religion will be changed ofte with change of rulers As if is the â—urpitude of our nation through the whole world that of foure Princes who haue succéeded one an other the first kept the ancient faith though not the Papacie the next abolished both the third restored both againe both againe are now abolished by her Maiestie al within the compasse of about thirtie yeares Rainoldes So in the realme of Iuda though not in so â—ew yeres the father King Achaz burnt incense in yâ— hiâ— places the sonne Ezekias did abolish them the nephew Manasses restored them againe and Iosias his nephew abolished theÌ„ againe Yet the Prophets were not moued by these changes to denie their soueraintie in matters of religion And better it is for vs to haue changed so by meanes of our godly Iosias and Ezekias that noble child her Maiesties brother her Maiestie then to haue continued vnchanged
the youthes in his Pasquines nor poore men haue cause to stand in doute of him though he threaten being armed with a leauer and a dish-clout that a wil quel all who stand in his way crush theÌ„ in peeces And if the Parasites of the Pope think that to be lightning which he hath â—â—asht to burn England sure it is such lightning as was after the Poet the lightning of Salmoneus who shaking oft a torch did counterfeit the thundring soundes and lightning flames of heauen But such kindes of lightning although they daunt the wauering Gréekes and towne of Elis whose king is Salmoneus yet they daunt not the vnuincible Christians and citie of the liuing God whose king is the Lord. And let him who flasht it take héed if he bee wise least his foolish lightning as they say it happened to the lightner Salmoneus be reuenged with true lightning of almightie God to the vtter ruine of him selfe his towne and citizens For the Church which is lead by the holy Ghost into all truth hath béene alreadie taught by him out of the scriptures and shall be taught farther through the grace of God what difference there is betweene the lightning of Bristow and the light of Iesus Christ the lightning of Bristow the heate whereof doth hurt the bodies which it striketh the light of Iesus Christ the beames whereof delite the men to whom it shineth the lightning euill and pestilent which blindeth them who sée and killeth them who liue the light good and healthfull which giueth sight vnto the blinde and life vnto the dead Neither are wee without many godly men of excellent autoritie learning and iudgement euen amongst them whom this Tertullus nameth reprochefâ—lly great Maiâ—ters who could haue shewed this long ago â—â—wbeit they haue stayed hetherto from dooing it either because they thought his folies were refuted before they were writen for that after the maner of the Popish writers he bringeth no new matter but scowreth vp old rustie stuffe as one of them did note long since or because they purposed first to encounter with such as had writen before and more pithily entending to deale after with the rest in due time as an other signified of late that he meant or because the controuersies being sufficiently traueled in by many they thought that they might well cease from this labour though the Papistes ceased not from their impudencie as Ieremie hauing answered Hananiah once gaue him no answere wheÌ„ he repeated his error or because perhaps some had no leasure from their weightier charge of feeding the Church some listed not to striue with such a railing person some while they thinke that others haue taken it in hand do let it alone al either remember the counsell of the wise man that thou must not alwayes answere a foole least thou become like him or if it were requisite to answere him now least he seeme wise in his owne conceit they straine curtesie who should doo it For my part least the Philistines should vaunt any longer as if their were no man amongst the Israelites that durst fight with Goliath or the Israelites be gréeued with hearing the host of the liuing God to be so defyed of an vncircumcised Philistin I purposed through gods grace though perhaps Goliath would haue disdained me as a childe yet I purposed to set vpon him in the name of the Lord of hostes the God of the host of Israel But when I had prepared my selfe to the battaile and chosen smooth stones out of the brooke of Gods worde which are mightie through God to cast downe holdes euery high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God I heard that the matter was dispatched alreadie by a stoute and faithful souldiour of Christ by whom many Philistines had before beene conquered Whose worke as I vnderstood since is at the presse too and shall be shortly published Wherefore laying now aside my former purpose I thought on that demaund and promise of Bristow touching the scripture and the Church wherein he doth challenge and offer vs the combat For whereas a countrie man of ours vnder the title of an vnlearned Christian concealing his own name had set foorth a booke touching the autoritie of Gods word 〈◊〉 Church Bristow willeth him to set out his booke and put his name to it with approbation of our Rabbines and with priuilege and promiseth that he shal quickly see it answered This booke haue I sought for but could not fall vpon it all the copies of it as I ghesse being sold. Neither knew I how to speake with the autor who had coÌ„cealed his name I dout not but for good cause But to satisfie if not wholy yet as farre as I might the chaleÌ„ge of Bristow I haue set out this litle treatise of the same point with the autours name thereto approbation not of Rabbines whom we leaue to that Synagogue whose rulers loue to be called Rabbi Rabbi Maisters Doctours but of graue and learned men whom it concerneth Which thing I hope will like him so much the better because it compriseth not onely that question touching the scripture and the Church that he desireth to be set out but certaine other also of the same kinde chiefly touching the Church whereof he hath onely the bare name to boast of And I looke for an answere so much the sooner because there are now fower yeares past since he promised a Latin booke to which whether it be come abroad already or to come shortly he may ioine if it please him an answere to these Conclusions Wherein if he thinke it méete for him to deale there are thrée things both easy to be doon and reasonable in my iudgement which I will request him One is that he will set downe the text of my Conclusions wholy with his answere as I had determined to doo with his Demaundes that the readers may sée what he confuteth and how An other that he will not kicke against the prickes that he will yéelde to the truth and not go about to darken the cléere light of the sunne of righteousnes with cauils and sclanders The thirde that if he be ashamed to say the truth preuails against me yet in reprouing such things as he assayeth to reproue he will deale more soundly and sincerely then D. Stapleton hath doon in his Doctrinall Principles of faith a worke more full of wordes then truth For to confute our doctrine that the Church is the company of Gods elect and chosen which we teach of the Catholike Church and it is true he teacheth that euill men are mingled in the Church with good the reprobate with the elect which thing is also true in the militant Church But true thinges agrée with true thinges neâ—â—her doth one truth ouerthrow an other We hold that the Catholike Church which is commended to vs in the Creede is the whole company of
opinion and sound in points of faith yea so sound and right that they think no pestilent disease may attache her no contagion infect her no spot of vnfaithfulnes any way defile her Of the which assertion they alleage the Fathers to omitte the residue men of baser credit for principall patrones And therein Andradius dealeth somewhat wisely For he dooth heape together witnesses without testimonies the geuers of euidence without euidence Austins Ieroms Basils Athanases and Chrysostoms But Sanders much more gloriously For he hath laide on such a lâ—ade of testimonies that if the sayings should be numbred and not weighed we must léese our suite no remedy But all the Fathers whom this pety-lawier produceth as speakers for the Popes monarchie doo either deny that the Church of Rome did erre or that it may erre did erre as Irenaeus In the Church of Rome that doctrine hath beene kept still which was deliuered by the Apostles may erre as Cyprian that the Romanes are they whose faith is commended and praysed by the Apostle vnto whom vnfaithfulnes can not haue accesse The former who deny that the Church of Rome did erre speake not against vs. For we doo not say that it did erre in Irenaeus time but that it dooth erre now He denyeth that it did erre we say that it dooth erre doo we gainesay one another Ierusalem is called the citie of God by the Psalmist and he is said there to be serued Esay termeth it an harlot The temple of the Lord is named the house of God the house of prayer by Salomon by Christ it is reported to be a denne of theeues Dooth Esay speake against the Psalmist or Christ against Salomon No but the Psalmist sheweth what Ierusalem was in his time Esay what in his The faithfull citie is become an harlot it was a faithfull citie but it is become an harlot Salomon teacheth what the house of God ought to be Christ what it is made You haue made it a denne of theues it was not to Salomon but you haue made it So Rome was likewise sound in the time of the Fathers but the faithfull citie is become an harlot the soundnes it hath lost it hath got a leprousie it was the house of God it is a denne of théeues it held the faith of Christ but it is fallen from it It had kept the doctrine still which was deliuered by the Apostles vntill the time of Irenaeus but that it hath kept still vntil our time the doctrin which was deliuered by the Apostles doth it thereof folow Unlesse perhaps the Popes Courtiers will proue that the whoores the Courtisans which keepe their stewes are virgins because they were virgins when they were litle babes The former Fathers then who deny that the church of Rome did erre doo not gainsay vs. The later who deny that it may erre gainsay vs in deed but they gainesay the holy Ghost too By whose inspiration the blessed Apostle exhorting the Roman church not to lift vp it selfe against the Iewes Be not high minded saith he but feare For if God spared not the natural branches take heed least he also spare not thee Behold there fore the bountifulnes and seueritie of God seueritie toward theÌ„ which haue fallen but toward thee bountifulnes if thou continue in his bountifulnes or els thou shalt also be cut off The church of Rome therefore may be cut of if cut of then erre if erre then vnfaithfulnes may haue accesse vnto it What and was Cyprian of an other minde Pardon me O Cyprian I would beléeue thée gladly but that beléeuing thee I should not beléeue the word of God But whether we should rather beléeue God or man let the Papists iudge At least if they beléeue rather man then God let them beléeue the reason and iudgement of their owne men For Sotus Alfonsus Hosius Verratus the lightes of the Papists doo witnesse that any particular church may erre But that the church of Rome is a particular church the same Verratus affirmeth nor can the rest deny it Wherefore if Cyprian did thinke that the church of Rome can not erre in that he must him selfe be condemned of errour by the Papists iudgement And so whereas all the testimonies of the Fathers are of two sortes the one of them true but cleane beside the purpose the other to the purpose enough but vntrue it foloweth that the sicknes of the Church of Rome can finde no helpe in any medicines of the Fathers What haue we then to doo with them by whom olde Rome is praysed and reported to gather together Christians to peace and repaire their faith to minister reliefe vnto the brethren the Churches to be a schoole of the Apostles a mother-citie of godlinesse a sanctified Church and such like things a number We haue to doo with new Rome whom her owne stories actes and monuments doo conuince to be a nurse of wars a parent of vnfaithfulnesse a spoyler of the brethren a worshipper of idols a seate of couetousnesse a ladie of pride a cherisher inflamer of lustes of outrages of abominations whose most louing sonne complaineth of his mother that her old fame continueth but her goodnesse is gone that her Pastours are turned into the shape of woolues the neerer you come the filthier all thinges be that trifles are giuen gold is receyued and onely money raigneth there that the Church-goods are made to serue for scoffers the altars for wantons the temples for boyes abused by vnnaturall monsters that the lawes diuine and humane are denyed men and God deceiued holinesse put to flight godlinesse despised renounced and afflicted Yet that a holy life would leade from Rome see that ye flee Though al things els be lawful there yet good ye may not be And these may séeme I hope both weightie causes and iust why the reformed Churches to come to the last Conclusion in England Scotland Fraunce Germany other kingdomes commoÌ„ wealthes haue seuered them selues from the corruption of Rome Though if this were al that it were not lawful to lead a holy life at Rome that we might not be good as Mantuan affirmeth we would haue departed from the citie of Rome as Mantuan aduiseth vs but we would not haue gone froÌ„ the Church of Rome If onely smal infirmities had craâ—ed the health of Rome in pointes of faith such as certaine did in the time of the Fathers we would haue lamented but tolerated it taking compassion of men being vnwarily fallen into a faute we would haue born their burdens But sith in the felowship of the Church of Rome it was not lawful for vs either to serue God with a holy worship or to beléeue God with a holy faith as God hath commanded sith the Church of Rome being taken with contagious diseases a frensy did put her counsellers to
doctrine swéete of Christ their master fedde By preaching first by wryting then to nations all if spred And these bookes hath the holy Ghost set foorth for mortall wights That we in course of faith and life might folow them as lights Auant all ye who brain-sick toies and fansies vaine defend Who on humane traditions and Fathers sawes depend The holy written word of God doth shew the perfit way Whereby from death to life arise from curse to blisse we may 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine TO warfare euery one dooth goe that serueth Christ in field To warfare all their names are billed who doo Gods armour wéelde And doost thou man in warfare serue and art thou frée from blowes And may no dart thy body pearce assaulted by the foes The citie of Ierusalem with holy Church was dight That holy Church kept not her course at all assaies aright Corinthus godly was and pure Philippi shone full bright The faith of Thessalonians was spred in glorious plight Corinthus pure is stayned now Philippi lyes defaced Your praise O Thessalonians is by the Turke disgraced And thou O Rome the Qâ—éene of pride which swell'st on mountaines seuen Thy hart is pearst with deadly wound thou fall'st to hell from heauen While that the Church doth make abode on earth in seats of clay Am I deceiued or may she féele the dint of errours sway 3 The holy scripture is of greater autoritie then the Church THe godlesse rowt inflam'd with lust of holding scepter hie Dooth lift the stately throne of Rome vnto the golden skie Unto the skie that pride were â—inall nay faâ—re aboue the skie Subduing Christ his scepter great to Romish royaltie Men say that Giants did attempt the heauenly powers to quell What doo they raise new warres againe from grisly gulfe of hell The holy church may for it selfe claime worthy gifts of right T is great I graunt but lesse I trust then is the Lord of might Let mortall things geue place to God let men to Christ accord The wife to man the earth to heauen the subiect to the Lord. ALthough I am not ignorant right worshipfull audience that Cato the graue Censour reprooued a certaine Roman who taking vpon him to write a storie in Greeke had rather craue pardon of his fault in dooing it then kéepe himselfe cléere from committing that fault yet so it hath hapned to me at this present yelding shal I say thereto or refusing it surely some what against my will but so it hath hapned that I who could not choose but commit a faut am forced to request you to pardon my faut For both the weakenes of my voice because it is not able to fill the largenesse of this place wil discontent perhaps them who heare me not and the vnripenesse of my abilitiâ— which I feare me will not answere the solemnitie of this assemblie in handling those things that are to be debated will of likelihoode be reproued by them who heare me How much the more earnestly I am to request by word you that heare me by will the rest who heare me not that either you wil be no Censours at all or els be more fauourable Censours then Cato least either you iudge me to haue dealt vnwisely who did not kéepe my selfe from fault or impudent who first commit it and then request you not to blame it Neither do I dout but I shal finde defense for the weakenes of my voice in your frendly curtesiâ— before whom I speake for the vnripenes of my abilitie in the goodnes of the cause which I haue to speake off For that your curtesie will condemne me of that fault which I could not eschew I néede not to feare And the goodnes of the cause hath in it such euident and cléere light of trueth that I doo not dout it will defend it selfe though no man pleade for it Wherein I hope also that you euen your selues either doo already or will agrée with me if you shall heare me open as briefly as I may the meaning of the thrée Conclusions that I hâ—ld the perfection of the scripture the infirmitie of the Church the autoritie of them both For as for the praise and commendation of Diuinitie whereof the beginning is from heauen the maiestie diuine the office to be an instrument of saluation to mankinde which was ordeyned by God the father reueled by Iesus Christ registred in writing by the holy Ghost I cannot speake thereof as I would according to the woorthines of the thing as I may according to my power I ought not In the one I hope you approue my good will in the other I beséech you take my iudgement in good part For I doâ— not say by way of amplification colourably that I refraine therefore from the praising of it because my woundering at it dooth dasell like the brightnesse of the sun-beames the eyes of my minde as Tully faineth of Caesar that the people shewed not their good will toward him by ioyful clapping of their hands because that they being amazed with woondring at him could not stirre themselues But as the prophet Esay witnesseth of God that when he behelde his maiestie he was dismaied because he was a man of polluted lips vnworthie to behold the king and Lord of hostes so may I protesâ— from my hart in trueth that when I consider the highnes of Gods worde I holde my peace as amazed because I am a man of polluted lips vnfitte to touch the noblenesse of a thing so woorthie Wherefore I willingly leaue these Iuy-garlands to be hanged vp by them who vent the wine of Philosophie Physike and Lawe which artes very profitable but for the life that fadeth excellent but humaine commendable but transitorie beutifull but brittle I dout not but already the learning and eloquence of men well séene therein hath made you wel to like of in this exercise of disputations Now I take a greater enterprise in hand for the valour of the thing which I am to deale with though nether with better witte nor deeper iudgement then they whom I folow in the course of dealing Liuie reporteth that Annibal hauing purposed to fightâ—with the Romans did cause certaine couples of captiues to fight one with an other hand to hand before he set his souldiers in battaile aray that his Carthaginians might by that pastime of the captiues combat addresse them selues with better consideration and courage to the serious and set battaile In like sorte there haue béene brought before you gentle audience to the combat sundrie opinions of sundrie artes as it were cooples of captiues which whether they liue or dye be so or not so it skilleth not greatly the state of the realme is not ventured vpon it But now from that sporting conflict of light matters there cometh to the battaile for earnest tryall of thinges of weight host against host truth against falshood religion against errour wherein if we swarue out
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
indeede more sound then other some according as the word is more purely preaâ—â—ed and the spirit worketh more effectually but all of them sound But where the word of God either is not preached so that there groweth a famine or is preached corruptly mixt with mans word as it were with leauen or darnell or poyson as they who receiue no foode are like to dye through hunger such as eate bread made of corne and â—â—rnel doo fall into a light frenâ—â—â— so must we néedes iudge that churches whose foode is either none or naught are apt to diseases and neere to their deathe For Amos declareth that men are cast away through want of the word in that he telleth Israel that God will send a famine and a thirst of hearing the word of the Lord which when they shall seeke for to and fro and finde no where it shall come to passe that virgins and young men shall faint with thirst and fall and neuer rise againe Now that the corruption of the worde doth hurt too the Apostle noteth in aduertising Timothee that they who teach other doctrine and consent not to the wholesome wordes of Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines are sick and do dote about noysome folies which edifie not to godly faith in so muâ—h that their word doth fret as a kinde of canker which hauing taken hold of one part of the body doth eate out the next partes by litle litle vntill the whole body at last be cleane consumed Which if it come to passe as it must of necessitie vnlesse the better remedy be spéedily prouided for healing of the body that which was a body doth become a carkasse and is no longer a church it is left destitute of the spirit of God which is the soule thereof and of the soules instrument that is the word of God And this death is threatned by Christ to the Iewes in the old church refusing him their Messias therefore shal the kingdome of God be taken from you and geuen to a nation which shall bring foorth the fruites of it and in the new church to the EphesiaÌ„s hauing left their first loue I wil come against thee shortly wil remoue thy candlestick out of his place except thou amend Which two things foretold by our sauiour Christ were fulfilled in the destruction of the two churches of the church of the Iewes within a few yeares when the gospel was remoued from them to the Gentiles of the church of Ephesus many ages after when hauing béen sick first of sundrie heresies it died a while ago of the plague of Mahomet Thus I haue declared as briefly as I could how particular churches are called members of the catholike how they are ordeyned to learn and practise Goâ—s seruice how the good in them are intermingled with the bad the godly with hypocrites finally what their health is what their diseases be and when they must be counted sound when vnsound Which pointes being marked my paines wil be the lesser in opening the Conclusion the two stemmes whereof on what rootes they grow you perceiue already The church of Rome is not the catholike church it is no sound member of the catholike church The church of Rome is not the catholike church What can be more cléere For the catholike church is the church vniuersall the church of Rome is particular So that in my iudgement the Papistes speake monstrously when they call the Romane church the catholike church and make them all one Some will say perhaps that when they call it catholike they meane it to be sound and of a right beleefe such as doth hold the catholike faith as the ciuil law doth terme the right beléeuers catholike Christians and the church of Afrike is named catholike by Cyprian Yet that is false too For they geue the title of catholike church of Rome that they may put into the heads of the vnskilfull that that is the church out of which there is no saluation But out of the church of Rome there haue beene saued innumerable shall be out of the catholike church not one But let it be graunted that they meane by catholike a church holding the right faith I deny that the church of Rome doth hold the right faith and that is the other part of my Conclusion it is no â—ound member of the catholike church Now when I deny it to be a sound member of the catholike church I meane not that it languisheth of a litle sicknes or disease not dangerous which may seeme rather to haue abated somewhat of exquisite health then haue bereft her of all health For as Galen teacheth of the health of the body that it hath a reasonable bredth as you would say and certaine degrees as it were of perfitnes that they who are able to go about their businesse and doo affaires of life are to be counted whole though they enioy not a most perfit health so in the health of churches I déeme there are certaine degrées of sinceritie that they who doo the functions of spirituall life reasonably well are to be counted â—ound although they attaine not to a most absolute soundnesse And for that cause as we iudge our owne churches to be sound although there remaine some distemper in them by the relikes of those diseases wherewith the contagion of the church of Rome had cast them downe so that they could not yet be recouered fully in like sort we iudge of the churches of Germanie which are troubled with the errour of consubstantiation as it were with the grudging of a litle ague if other wise they holde Christian faith and loue soundly and sincerely But the church of Rome is not distempered with a litle ague such as hindereth not the functions of life greatly but is sicke of a canker or rather of a leprosy or rather of a pestilence in so much that she is past hope of recouery vnlesse our Sauiour Christ the heauenly physician doo giue her wholesome medicins to purge her of pernicious humours And therefore I pronounce that the church of Rome is no sound member of the catholike church Which I will proue by two reasons the one of the causes the other of the effectes whereof from the one diseases doo arise in the other they shew them selues by them both they are surely proued I would to God I might discourse hereof at large according as the weightines of the thinges requireth But we must be content to doo as time wil license vs. You wil pardon me therefore I trust if I runne them ouer somewhat hastily and as they say touch and go I will hold out my finger toward the well head gesse you the lion by his pawes Concerning the causes which doo bréed diseases and sicknesse in the church it is as I haue touched already cléere and certaine that they are either the want of food of Gods word
that in place of greatest force as when he saith This is my commandement that ye loue one an other as I haue loued you greater loue then this hath no man when a man bestoweth his life for his friendes Whereas S. Iohn therefore vttered Christes demand by the one worde and Peters answere by the other it séemeth that he vsed the wordes indifferently as hauing both the same meaning Which is proued also by the consent and iudgement of the Syriake translation that hath the same worde for them both Howbeit if the wordes haue a difference of sense it agreeth better with the modestie of Peter to haue saide lesse then more of his loue chiefly sith hee had fallen by saying too much of it and had by triall felt his frailtie But if he did answere as you imagine him Dost thou loue me Peter Lord I loue thee feruently yet this feruent loue inferreth no supremacy ouer the rest of the Apostles For what he reporteth of his owne loue the same doth Christ witnesse of theirs or rather more if we would pricke it vp as you doo euen that his Father loueth them because that they loued him In both the which branches that same worde is vsed which by your fansie doth signifie feruent loue when it may serue the Popes vantage Hart. We doo not relye so much on that word as on the other two 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but chiefly on the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For although to feed which is meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth import much yet to feede and rule which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth hath a greater force as those places shew where that worde is vsed Thou shalt rule them with a rodde of yron and he shall rule my people Israel Wherefore Christ committed a soueraine power to Peter in that he said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not onely to feede but to rule and gouerne too Rainoldes Then it was not Peters duetie to rule the lambes but the shéepe onely For Christ doth say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of the shéepe and of the lambes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hart. So I said Yet that word which he vseth of the lambes he vseth of the shéepe also Whereby this is shewed as I touched briefly out of o D. Stapleton that lambes must be onely meated and fedde of Peter through the common foode of doctrine to be looked for from him as supreme father of the houshold and from his Sée and they must be ruled of their next and proper Pastors whom immediatly they are vnder but sheepe that is to say the greater and perfiter Bishops themselues and Pastors are committed to him not onely to be fedde with the common doctrine but also to be ruled of him more immediatly as of the supreme Pastor of Pastors Rainoldes So your Doctor noteth I grant and you touched it But you were best recall it or els this fine fansie of that Gréeke word as it is farre fetched so will be deare bought For it must cost the Pope halfe of his supremacy Hart. Why doo you say so Rainoldes Why Are not Princes comprised in the name of lambes by your iudgement as Bishops and Pastors in the name of sheepe Hart. They are and what then Rainoldes The Pope then hath nothing to doo with the ruling and gouerning of Princes much lesse with deposing them For Peter had commission you say to feede onely and not to rule the lambes Hart. But they must be ruled of their next Pastors and so by consequent of the Pope because their Pastors must be ruled of him as Pastor of Pastors Rainoldes Nay but the Pastors are not to be ruled by the Pope neither if this fansie hold For in your Latin authenticall translation the clawse which doth answere to the Gréeke word hath not sheep but lambes Whervpō your Rhemists also note the same as spokē of lambs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 feed rule So that howsoeuer he lay hold on others by that Gréeke word compared with your Latin text yet his rule gouernment of Bishops Pastors is shakē of therby And this is as much as half of his supremacy nay all by a consequent For his claime lieth first ouer Bishops and then by means of Bishops ouer the whole church Thus while you deuise by quirkes of your owne to vnderprop the Pope you lay him on the ground do him more harme by crasing of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then good by fortifying of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For although it signifie to feede in such sort as shepheards do their sheepe and so consequently to rule them and guide them in all respects as shepheards doo for the preseruing of them yet that charge of ruling belonged not to Peter alone peculiarly but was and is common vnto all shepheards Our English toong answereth not to the felicitie of the gréeke and latin in making euident proofe hereof For in the gréeke wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in the Latin pastor pasco the matter would be plainer But yet in our English a shepheard and to feede in that sort with ruling are yoked so togither by lincke as I may terme it of reason and sense though it appeare not in lincke and likenesse of words that as many as are called to the function of shepheards and Pastors of the church they all are bound by duetie to féede and rule so The proofe whereof we haue in Peter and Paule who mouing the Pastors whom they cal Elders to attend their charge the one beseecheth them to feede the flock of God which dependeth on them the other telleth them that the holy Ghost hath made them ouerseers to feede the church of God both vsing the same worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as betokening the common charge of shepheards Yea Christ him selfe speaking to the Angel that is the shepherd of the church of Thyatira doth promise that hee who ouercommeth and keepeth his workes vnto the ende shall haue power giuen vnto him ouer nations and he shall rule them with a rodde of yron So that euen there where you note that word importeth greatest power of beating downe the wicked Christ applieth it to all his faithfull seruants and not to Peter onely Wherefore if it were so that hee had ment more by saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thē by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in his charge to Peter yet he meant no more then that which belongeth to euery shepheards charge for the shéepe which God ordeineth him to féede But in truth if your itche of wresting holy scriptures to priuate fansies were healed you woulde rather thinke that S. Iohn did vtter one sense with sundry wordes as in the Lordes demaunde of Peter Doost thou loue mee so in his commandement to Peter Feede my sheepe
For the Syriake translation which your selfe alleaged to proue that the Gréeke wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though different in sound yet are one in sense because our Sauiour spake in the Syriake toong and in the Syriake both are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expresseth here also the two sundry Gréeke words by one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as if that our Sauiour had vsed the same word and meant the same thing in both Which interpretation should bée of greater credit with you in this point then it was in that because your authenticall Latin translation which there dissented from it agreeth with it here expressing likewise both by pasce Unlesse you will say that your authenticall Latin doth not expresse fully the meaning of the Gréeke Hart. A translation cannot expresse the force alwayes of wordes in the originall as in Ecclesiasticus it is obserued of the Hebrue Rainoldes You say true How much the more were they to blame who decréed that a translation should be accounted as authenticall in all Diuinitie-exercises and no man vnder any pretense to reiect it But if there had bene such force and importance in the Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your Latin translator could haue expressed it easily For otherwhere he doth translate it to rule and that being spoken of meaner Pastors then Peter euen of the Bishops of Ephesus Which bewrayeth further the séely state of your proofe grounded on the worde For if Peter were ordeined supreme head because he was willed to rule the sheepe or lambes what headship may the Bishoppes of Ephesus claime who were made ouerseers to rule the church of God that is both lambes and shéepe But your last proofe vpon the word to feede which signifieth you say a power most full and absolute is most out of square and neither agreeth with your selues nor with truth and reason For you said that lambes are onely fedde of Peter sheepe both fedde and ruled Which is fond if to rule be no more then to feede fonder if to feede imply a power most full and absolute Beside that to feede is to nourish Christians with milke or strong meate according to their state as they are either lambes or sheepe Wherefore if that import the fulnesse of power which no man hath but one to wéete the supreme head how great is your crueltie to the church of Christ who leaue but one Pastor throughout all the earth to preach the word of God vnto it Or if you leaue more grant that seuerall Churches shall haue their seuerall Pastors after the ordinance of God how great is your folly who graunting vs so many Pastors feeders yet say that one alone hath the charge to feede and that importeth a supremacy For if euery Pastor haue charge to feede his flocke and to feede implieth a fulnesse of power peculiar to the supreme head then by your reason euerie Pastor in his church euery feeder in his flocke is a supreme head no lesse then Peter was amongst the Apostles Nay Peter was not so by your reason neither For if to feede doo signifie a power most absolute and full as you say it doth and that power was giuen to all the Apostles as you confesse too it followeth by your owne confession and saying that all the Apostles had that charge to feede If all they had that charge to feede maketh nothing for Peters Supremacie Wherefore this and other of the like knottes which Stapleton hath sought and â—ound out in bulrushes they did not grow in them by the workmanship of the Creator man hath made them and God will loose them Hart. This which you haue said might séeme to be some what towardes the loosing of them if the scripture gaue not very cléere euidence for proofe of his Supremacie as well elsewhere as here For Christ said to Peter Simon Simon behold Satan hath desired you to winow you as wheate But I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not And thou being conuerted strengthen thy brethren Rainoldes Will you be drawing still of blood for what doth eyther Christes prayer for Peter or the charge giuen him to strengthen his brethren say more for his supremacie then the question dost thou loue me or the charge feede my sheepe vnlesse you presse violently the wordes beyond their sense as your Schoole-diuines in their captious syllogismes or rather sophismes vse to doo Hart. Such dregges as our Canus termeth them of sophismes brought into the Schoole by men who were vnworthely named Schoole-diuines are reproued by vs as well as by you But the wordes of Christ doo speake enough for Peters prerogatiue without violence For they commande him to strengthen his brethren And his brethen were the rest of the Apostles They commaunde him therefore to strengthen the Apostles If to strengthen the Apostles then must he be their supreme head Wherefore the wordes of Christ proue the supremacie of Peter Rainoldes And thinke you that Christ meant the rest of the Apostles when he saide thy brethren Hart. Whom should hee meane if not them Rainoldes All the faithfull as I thinke For they haue all one Father the same that Peter hath and they are fellow heires of the grace of life with Peter and Peter himselfe strengthning them calleth them brethren So that in Peters iudgement Christ seemeth to haue meant by his brethren all the faithfull Pardon me if I be rather of his minde therein then of yours Hart. As who say we denyed that all the faithfull are meant by his brethren we teach the same also Yet that is true that I saide For I trust the Apostles are in the number of the faithfull Rainoldes They are so But then your reason of brethren hath no more force then had the other of sheepe Nay it hath lesse For what is to strengthen Hart. To strengthen is to stay them vp who do stand For the function of preaching which through the grace of God ingendreth faith in men hath two speciall partes to teach and to strengthen or as S. Paule speaketh to plant and to water To teach and to plant is to conuert men vnto the faith of Christ and to ingraffe them into him To strengthen and to water is to vphold them which are already faithfull that they may perseuere in it Rainoldes Then is the charge lesser to strenghthen the brethren then to feede the sheepe For to feede is as much as to preach the word of God And to preach hath two dueties to raise vp them that are fallen to strengthen them that do stand Wherefore if the supremacie were not giuen Peter by the charge to feede the sheepe much lesse can it be giuen by a part of that charge to strengthen the brethren For as Peter ought that duetie to his brethren so did his brethren to him and Paule performed it so did
are not aliue Hart. Aliue What is that to the tryall of our issue Rainoldes Much. For if they liued and did appeere before the iury first they should be sworne to say the truth and al the truth and nothing but the truth Whereby they might bee moued both to speake more waâ—ily and to enforme the iury more throughly then they haue doon Next it would be easier to examine them of their age their estate the circumstances of their persons of their spéeches the meaning the occasion and cause thereof Which all are helpes to finde out the truth of thinges in controuersie Thirdly if it appeered by examination that either for their persons or for their speeches they are vnworthie of credit then it should bee lawfull to except against them A libertie which law doth graunt against witnesses if there be cause of iust exception Yet you perhaps as your men are wont would make outcrye if I should vse it against them who are dead and absent Wherefore vnlesse the iury doo supply that by wisedome and equitie which wanteth in the course of tryall by reason that the witnesses whom you will bring are not aliue they may be deceyued by names and shewes of witnesses and thereby giue a verdict which shall proue no verdict For verdict is a speech of veritie Hart. An honest mans worde is as good as his oth For as he will not forsweare so neither lye The Fathers must not therefore be the lesse beleeued because they are not sworne Rainoldes Yet an honest man when he is sworne wil speake more fully and maturely then when he is vnsworne And hée may say that sometime on coniecture which on his oth he would not say Hart. But that may be perceyued by the Fathers writings when they doo pronounce of a thing as certaine when as vncertaine they coniecture it And so may other circumstances which you require be knowne too as well as if them selues were present Rainoldes Not so well For their writings doo not answere to many questions which if they were present I woulde aske of them But I am content with that which may be knowne so Let the iury weigh it and iudge thereafter of their credit Hart. What Shall meaner men who be aliue now iudge of the credit of the Fathers who were so long in time so farre in giftes before them Rainoldes Euagrius a meane man wrote vnto S. Ierom desiring his opinion concerning Melchisedec whether he were the holy Ghost S. Ierom answering him when hee had shewed the iudgements of the auncient writers Origen Didymus Hippolytus Irenaeus Eusebius Caesariensis and Emisesenus Apollinarius Eustathius and the best learned Iewes of whom some thought Melchisedec an angel some a man you haue saith he what I haue heard what I haue read touching Melchisedec To bring forth the witnesses it was my part let it be yours to iudge of the credit of the witnesses It séemed reason to S. Ierom that Euagrius should iudge of of the witnesses whom he brought What is there more in the Fathers then was in those witnesses What was there more in Euagrius then is in many who liue now Hart. But you perhaps will cauil either at the persons or at the spéeches of the Fathers and thinke that euery toy is a sufficient reason why men should not beléeue them Rainoldes Whether the exceptions that I shall take against any be cauils and toyes let the iury iudge Nay I durst say almost let mine aduersarie iudge For what thinke you youâ— self if one alleage for scripture that which is not scripture may not that autoritie be iustly refused As if for example a man should write that Christ said to his disciples that which I say to one of you I say to all Hart. In deed M. Iewell alleaged that for scripture to proue that the wordes of Christ vnto Peter feede my sheepe feede my lambes were spoken n ot to him onely but to the rest of the Apostles Wherein he was iustly reproued by D. Harding For Christ did not say what I say to one that I say to all but what I say to you meaning the Apostles that I say to all Christians watch So good is our cause that M. Iewell could not make shew of truth against it but by foule corruption and falsifiing of the scriptures Rainoldes I pray be good to M. Iewell for M. Optatus and Fulgentius sake who both haue missealleaged the same words of Christ yea one of them in like sort as Bishop Iewell did For to proue that the words of the Lord to Esay Cry and cease not were spoken not to Esay onely but to all preachers he vseth this reason that Christ doth say to his disciples what I say to one of you I say to all Wherin as the doctrine of a preachers duty is true though the proofe be false so is in Bishop Iewell the doctrine of the Apostles duety And Bishop Iewels proofe from one Apostle vnto all is better grounded on the wordes then the other from Esay the Prophet to all preachers Moreouer the faulte remaineth vncorrected in â—ulgentius and Optatus Bishop Iewell hath corrected it Wherefore if you condemne him of fouly corrupting and falsifying the scripture because he missealleaged that sentence of Christ what iudgement will you giue of Fulgentius and Optatus Hart. Nay it is likely that they ouersaw it by a slippe of memorie Rainoldes The same would you iudge of M. Iewel if some what did not blinde your eye But by this your iudgement I see that where the Fathers mistake the wordes of scripture they may be refused What if they mistake not the wordes but the sense may we refuse them also there As Iustin the Martyr Irenaeus Papias Tertullian Victorinus Lactantius Apollinarius Seuerus and Nepos in that they thought that Christians after the resurrection should raigne a thousand yeares with Christ vpon the earth in a golden Ierusalem and there should mary wiues beget children eate drinke liue in corporall delites Which errour though repugnant flatly to the scriptures yet they fell into partly by confounding the first and second resurrection partly by taking that carnally which was mystically meant in the Reuelation Hart. That was the heresie of the Millenaries as they are called Howbeit in the Fathers though it were an errour yet it was no heresie Rainoldes I doo not say it was an heresie I say that they mistooke the meaning of the scripture which you can not denie Yea some times when they neither mistooke the words nor the meaning yet they taught amisse out of it As that God created the world in six dayes they vnderstood it rightly But to conclude thereof that the world should last but sixe thousand yeares because one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeares a thousand yeares as one day this was an ouersight For if that were true