therefore if you are so speak You have the Protection of the Court for the Counsel you give in matter of Law and whatever Advice you give you should maintain by Law Mr. VVallop Truly my Lords it is a Point that has as I said before received some Settlement but whether ever in this Court or no I cannot tell Therefore I did discharge my thoughts of providing any Argument till your Lordships should have determined whether you will take the Point upon the Resolutions in the Courts below to be finally settled and determined Sir William Jones So then it is agreed to be settled in the ordinary Courts Lord Stafford I desire also it may be argued whether words are an Overt Act. Sir Francis Winnington It seems the Law is with us in case of a Commoner but whether it be so for a Lord is the Question Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford How comes it to pass that your Lordship came prepared with Objections but not with Counsel ready to argue them Lord Stafford Mr. Wallop has given you an Answer I must stand by that Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned to their House in their Order and the Committee of Commons staid in their Places to attend their Resolutions In one hours time the Lords returned and my Lord High Steward being seated upon the Woolpack Silence was proclaimed Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford My Lords since they have been withdrawn have considered of one Point of that point chiefly which your Lordship did move touching the necessity of two Witnesses to every Overt Act alledged as Evidence of High Treason that is the point you have desired Counsel to speak to and that is the point your Counsel desired to know whether it was a doubtful or debateable point before they would argue it and hereupon my Lords did withdraw to consider it And my Lords have directed that all the Judges that assist them and are here in your Lordships presence and hearing should deliver their Opinions whether it be doubtful and disputable or no. Then all the Judges consulted privately together and afterwards gave their Opinion Seriatim beginning with the Lord Cbief Justice North the Lord Chief Justice Scroggs being absent Lord Chief Justice North. My Lords I do here deliver my Opinion and I am cleà r in it That if there be several Overt Acts or Facts which are Evidences of the same Treason if there be one Witness to prove one such Overt Act at one time and another Witness to prove another Overt Act at another time both the Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are two sufficient Witnesses of that Treason and will maintain an Indictment or an Impeachment of Treason I never knew any doubt made of it in any Inferiour Court of Justice and I have known it often resolved Lord Chief Baron Montague My Lords where ever Treason is to be proved to every Overt Act two Witnesses as I conceive are not required If so be there are two Witnesses to several Overt Acts conducing to a proof of the same Treason I think they are Witnesses in the Judgment of the Law such as the Statute requires Mr. Justice Windham I am of the same Opinion with my Lord Chief Justice North and my Lord Chief Baron That if there be several Overt Acts done at several times tending to the same Treason these several Acts being severally proved by several credible Witnesses though but by one Witness at each time to each Act the said several Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are sufficient Witnesses of that Treason so proved and will maintain an Indictment or as I conceive an Impeachment Mr. Justice Jones My Lords if several Witnesses speak to the same kind of Treason although they speak to several Overt Acts and give Evidence of several times the one of them speaking to one time and the other to another time yet keeping still to the same kind of Treason they are such two Witnesses as are required by the Statute of Edward the 6 th and this I do take to be the constant Opinion of the Courts below Mr. Justice Dolben My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I know it hath been many times so resolved I have been present when Sentence hath passed upon Persons by whom the same Case hath been urged and it hath been so resolved And it hath been moved in Westminster-Hall and that was the constant Opinion of the Judges there particularly in the Case of Sir Henry Vane It was upon solemn Debate resolved and divers times it hath been held that the same Treason may be proved by two Witnesses to several Overt Acts though one speak of Words or Actions that were spoken or done at one time and in one place and another speak of Words or Actions at another time and in another place those are two good Witnesses in Treason within the intent of the Law and if the Law were otherwise 't were scarce possible to convict any man of Treason and therefore I take it to be very clear Mr. Justice Raymond I am of the same Opinion That where several Cirstances are brought to prove the same Treason one Witness to each of the several Circumstances is sufficient and this I conceive hath been always the Opinion of the Judges Mr. Baron Atkins My Lords I am of the same Opinion That there must be two Witnesses in the Case of Treason is a matter without Question but there are several Overt Acts that may contribute to the effecting of that Treason If a man designs to kill the King and buyes Powder at one place at one time and a Pistol at another place at another time and promises a Reward to one to assist him to do the thing at a third place and a third time these are several Overt Acts but if the Law requires that each be proved by two Witnesses I do not well see how any man can be Convicted of Treason In the Case of Sir Henry Vane and others this very Question was started but was not thought worthy of Debate if it should be otherwise it would touch the Judgments which have been given upon this kind of Proof and what would the Consequence of that be but that those persons who were Executed upon those Judgments have suffered illegally And therefore I am of Opinion that it is not requisite there should be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. Mr. Baron Gregory My Lords I am of the same Opinion it is Treason to Conspire the Death of the King Now each of the Witnesses is a Witness to prove that Treason the one says he offered him such a Reward in such a place that is one Witness to prove that he Conspired the Death of the King and another says that he offered him such a Reward in another place that is another Witness that he Conspired the
Blood is so great a Crime and I know every man is careful of giving his Voice in the Case of Blood I should be very cautious my self and if I were a Judge I would rather save twenty Guilty than condemn one Innocent I bless God I have not the least desire of the Death of any man and would not for all the world have the innocent Blood of all the word lye upon me I beg your Lordships pardon that I have troubled you thus long I shall now as well as I can apply my self to my particular Defence I do my Lords before I can go on to it desire I may have such Depositions as have been taken against me and the liberty to look on your Journal Book when I have occasion I do particularly desire the Depositions of Oats upon which I was committed by my Lord Chief Justice the two Depositions of Stephen Dugdale taken at Stafford before two Justices of the Peace Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon I desire the Depositions taken before I think it was Mr. Warcup and Sir William Poultney or some other two Justices which was made by Turbervile and then I shall compare their Testimonies together And I hope shall give you a clear account that they are perjured persons How without these to go on to my just Defence I cannot well tell Lord High Steward What do you say to it Gentlemen you hear what my Lord prays Sir Franc. Winnington The Witnesse are here and have been heard viva voce As we cannot use any of the Depositions of which he speaks so no more can they be used by him Lord High Steward If I understand my Lord aright this is the thing he desires says he You have brought Witnesses against me viva voce they have been examined here and they have been examined elsewhere and their Depositions are upon Record I desire to confront what they have said here with what they have said contrary in other places Mr. Serj. Maynard If there be any thing expressed by my Lord wherein they have contradicted themselves and produce that Deposition he may do that but to desire to have all the Depositions that have been made by our Witnesses is a strange request When there is occasion to use them upon any particular point he may produce them if he can Lord High Steward Can you object why my Lord should not have Copies of any thing that is upon the Journal and Depositions that are sworn before a Magistrate which may be of use to him Sir William Jones My Lords We do not object against it but my Lords I think it is out of time of to desire it What was sworn and is entred in your Lordships Journal was sworn above two years since My Lord or any man else might repair to them they are matters of Record and for ought we know were never denyed to any especially if they desired it in the House but after two years time and after three weeks time given to prepare for this Tryal when my Lord could not but know what Witnesses would be examined before your Lordships for him to come now and desire such and such Depositions may be produced which if by Law he might be allowed to do he might have done before is to no other purpose under favour but to gain time and to cause our Evidence to be forgotten And therefore we must humbly pray it may not be admitted My Lords I think it is an unusual thing My Lords the Judges are neer your Lordships I suppose they will inform your Lordships If a man be tryed at the Assizes for him to desire a Coppy of the Informations remaining in Court by which he may except against the Witnesses is what the Court does not use to grant But if your Lordships proceedings vary from the common proceedings of other Courts then I resort to what I said before Whether your Lordships will think this a proper time when he might have had it in the Parliament that was first Dissolved and then in the Parliament that was last Dissolved Now to desire those Copies at this time is to put off the Cause for that which perhaps he cannot be furnished with in a day or two Sir Fr. VVin. I would add but one word if your Lordships please to give me leave My Lords you have the Learned Judges near you who will inform you Whether ever when a man was accused of a Capital Offence and the Evidence against him had been fully heard by the Court and by himself he was admitted to require from the Prosecutors the Copies of Examinations formerly taken before other Persons Does my Lord intend to have time to peruse those Examinations and to have the Copies of them that he may consult in private with his Counsel to find out Exceptions and with his Witnesses to make them good My Lords I must say that in my short Experience and I have attended a considerable time upon the greatest Court for Trial of Offenders I never heard such a thing asked by a Prisoner either at the Bar of the Kings Bench or at the Assizes I speak with all the tenderness imaginable because we are in a matter of Blood and God-forbid but the Lord at the Bar should have true and equal Justice done him But if I take my Lord right this seems but an Artifice to delay the Trial of which it is our duty to be very cautious Indeed I have seen the Judges upon trial of a Criminal call for the Depositions or Informations from the Clerk or the Justice of the Peace who took them and caused them to be read but for a Prisoner to call for Examinations at the Bar from the Prosecutors Et ex Debita Justitia to demand them is a thing which as it never has been so I think will not be admitted at this time especially when we are now almost at the end of the Cause and with all Modesty and Submission to your Lordships I look upon it as a very strange and unreasonable Demand L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford What is the reason your Lordship had not all this while Copies of the Journal which is that you now ask L. Stafford I shall not undertake that I am able to give your Lordships a reason for it because I think wherein I have been mistaken as to point of Time your Lordships will not tie me up to that But this Gentleman that spoke last is not acquainted with me and does not know me for I have no desire to go back or to put off this Trial But if it cannot be done to Day I am as guilty to Morrow as I am to Day and I desire no more than what he says hath been done in the like Cases I do desire my Lord the Informations and Depositions of Dugdale Oates and Turbervile may be produced and read and I will make Observations upon them in my Defence I desire those Affidavits may be brought L. H. Stew. Affidavits taken When and where
L. Stafford Of Dr. Oats that was read in your Lordships House I heard it L. H. Stew. Let us understand your Lordships demands that when my Lords are withdrawn I may know what Questions to put to them and acquaint them with your desires The one is the Journal of the Lords House which is always before their Lordships and you might have had Copies long since The next thing you ask is an Affidavit of Dugdale if this Affidavit is entred into the Journal that supplies your Demands if it be not entred there where shall we find it L. Stafford I do not know L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship think all this matter must stay till we can find a loose Affidavit that we know not where 't is filed L. Stafford I know it was before the Council and I believe my Accusers have it I desire the Gentlemen of the House of Commons may produce it Sir John Trevor I have seen none nor have none L. Stafford The one was taken the 24. of December this time two year and the other the 29. L. H. Stew. My Lord will your Lordship give me leave to tell you you ought to be provided with some particular exception and not to make your demand in general If your Lordship will say Dugdale did swear such and such things which are contrary to what he now affirms we know what to make of it but to hunt after an Affidavit that we know not where to find to pick something out of it that I do not understand L. Stafford I appeal to my Lord of Essex and my Lord Bridgewater whether they did not examine me the first time upon one or two Affidavits of Dugdale L. H. Stew. Suppose it be not to be found my Lord L. Stafford Then I must have patience and submit L. H. Stew. Can you tell wherein he swore quite blank contrary to what he swears now L. Stafford My Lord I conceive it was never denied before but your Lordships may do what you please L. H. Stew. Well my Lord let us go on to the next The Affidavits of Dugdale if they be entred on the Journal may be ready if not thenâ— shall acquaint their Lordships and they will direct what is fit in the case L. Stafford Then there is the Affidavit of Oats before my Lord Chief Justice upon which I was committed the next day which was Friday it was read in your Lordships House L. H. Stew. I believe that is entred upon the Journal and so will be ready to be used L. Staff I do hope to make it evidently appear thereby that he is forsworn I desire two Affidavits more that were taken before the Justices of the Peace of Middlesex who examined Mr. Turbervile twice L. H. Stew. What Justice of the Peace L. Staff Mr. Warcupp Sir William Poultney and Sir Thomas Stringer I desire I may not be misunderstood I do not desire to have them to instruct my Counsel or advise with them upon them but I cannot make my Defence without them L. H. Stew. Those are voluntary extrajudicial Affidavits that no body is bound to keep L. Staff They were spoken of in the Votes of the House of Commons L. H. Steward What say you Gentlemen to it Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords because my Lord at the Bar is pleased to insinuate as if we knew where those Affidavits are which he seems to desire and because your Lordship was pleased to say that the Commons in Parliament are the Grand-Jury of the Kingdom I desire to say one thing That certainly it will not be required from us to produce and publish the several Facts and Circumstances that induced us to impeach him if it shall be demanded by the Prisoner at the Bar. L. H. Steward I wish you would answer the Question and not argue upon it whether those Affidavits of Turbervile may not be produced for 't is my Lords Exception against your Witnesses that he swears several ways and by those Affidavits of Turbervile he intends to disprove him in what he hath said to day Sir Fr. Win. My Lords the House of Commons never administer an Oath and therefore it is not to be said to us but my Lord Stafford must go to the particular Offices where they are to be found L. H. Stew. I do not ask you where my Lord should find them but whether if they can be found you can object any thing why they should not be produced and read Mr. Serj. Maynard When they are produced we will give an Answer L. Stafford My Lords I am informed this is the substance of the Affidavit That Turbervile did swear before two Justices of the Peace whether they be of the House of Commons or no I cann't tell that he spoke with me at Doway and in Paris in the years 73. and 77. and now he says 72. and 75. I am informed my Lords and I appeal to the House of Commons they are all Persons of Honour and Worth if my Information be mistaken I beg their Pardon and yours for 't whether he did not mend it after he had sworn it L. H. Stew. Are these all you do demand L. Stafford Yes my Lords Whether this was true or no I don't know â— is what I have been told I appeal to the House of Commons who are all worthy persons I do not believe I have an Enemy among them they know whether I speak true or no. L. H. Stew. When will your Lordship be ready to make your Defence L. Stafford As soon as ever I have them I will not stay a minute a moment an instant I desire not to shew my Counsel nor any one for my Tryal is a thing that I have long desired Therefore I would not be mistaken as if I would put off the Cause I am innocent and shall be so while I live and hope I shall make it appear so I beg if this be a matter of Law whether I may have them or not that my Counsel be heard to it L. H. Stew. This is a matter of Fact L. Stafford I insist upon it as things without which I cannot make my Defence I am innocent and I suppose not one of the House of Commons nor one of your Lordships will debar me of that by which I may make my Innocency appear Lord High Steward You cannot know my Lords pleasure till they are withdrawn Sir William Jones Before your Lordships withdraw I hope you will please to hear us a few words which we think may be for the Service of this Court. My Lords what Evidence is before your Lordships 't is in your Lordships pleasure what of that you shall please to communicate to my Lord Stafford but for this Evidence he speaks of as remaining in our hands and which he takes upon himself to appeal to us for admits of another consideration My Lords if we were conscious of any thing in these Affidavits that were for my Lords Advantage and knew where they were we would
Have you done with Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom will you proceed against next L. Stafford Dr. Oats L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats L. Stafford Only give me leave to say one thing my Lords that you were pleased to say I should have Copies of the two Depositions of the Twenty fourth and Twenty ninth of December And I had one to inquire but can't find that of the Twenty ninth Then Dr. Oats stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Dr. Oats my Lord Lord Stafford This Dr. Oats if your Lordships please I desire may be asked when was the first time he ever saw me in his life L. H. Steward When was the first time Dr Oats you saw my Lord Stafford Dr. Oats My Lords the first time I saw this Gentleman at the Bar was as near as I remember at Mr. Fenwicks L. H. Stew. That was in Drury lane Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When was that Dr. Oats That was as near as I remember in June L. H. Stew. Was it that time the Commission you spoke of was delivered Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you see that Commission Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you read it Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. From whom was it Dr. Oats I cannot be positive as to that but as near as I remember it was signed as the rest was signed L. H. Stew. How was that Dr. Oats Johannes Paulus Oliva L. H. Stew. You read it Dr. Oats Yes I did my Lords L. H. Stew. It was a Commission to be Pay-Master of the Army was it not Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. And it was delivered to my Lord Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. By the Name of Mr. Howard of Effingham Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What says your Lordship to this L. Stafford What is it possible for me to say against this I declare to your Lordships in the presence of God I never saw the man in my life I never went by any Name since I had the Honour of being a Peer but by the name of Stafford I never heard of Mr. Fenwick the Jesuit nor by the name Thompson till this Plot was discovered and he taken This you may believe or not if you please but this is as true as I am alive My Lords I desire I may have out of the Journals the Deposition on which I was committed L. H. Stew. Turn to the Journal L. Stafford It was read as I remember Friday 25. Octob. 78. Then the Clerk turned to the Journal and read Die Veneris 25. die Octobris 1678. THe Lord Viscount Stafford acquainted the House That he was informed that there was a Warrant issued out from the Lord Chief Justice of England to apprehend him which he thought fit to acquaint their Lordships with and submitted himself their Lordships Judgment The Lord Chief Justice being present was commanded to give the House an account of the business who said That last night about nine of the clock he received a Letter from the Speaker of the House of Commons dated from the Speakers Chair to come to the House of Commons about business of great concernment Accordingly he attended the House of Commons where the Speaker told him that the House of Commons had receiv'd Accusations of High Treason against five Lords and some Gentlemen and desired him to issue out his Warrants for their Apprehension The Persons were the Earl of Powis Viscount Stafford the Lord Arundel of Wardour the Lord Petres and the Lord Bellasis And upon this he issued out his Warrants for their Apprehension having taken the Examination of Titus Oats upon Oath That the Earl of Powis and the Lord Arundel were brought to him this morning in custody and he advised them to render themselves to the Gatehouse where now they are Upon this the Examination of Oats was read whereby it did appear That the Lord Viscount Stafford was charged to be in a Conspiracy of Treason against the King The Lord Viscount Stafford denyed the Fact and after this withdrew And after a while the House was informed that his Lordship would render himself to the Lord Chief Justice L. H. Stew. This is all that is in the Journal L. Stafford Then my Lords if your Lordships please to remember all of you that were there that I was accused by Dr. Oats whose Depositions I desire to see taken before my Lord Chief Justice that he had seen Letters of mine written to Fenwick Harcourt and some others three or four Jesuits in which I was consenting to the Plot that I had sent my Son to Lisbon yet I would be as kind to the Jesuits as before though there was some difference between us These Affidavits I desire to see which as I take it were read before your Lordships that day L. H. Stew. The Affidavit was taken by my Lord Chief Justice in the House of Commons where he did attend them upon their Summons I know not if the Original were read in the House of Lords or the Copy but it seems it is not entred into the Lords Journal but your Lordship had an Order to take Copies of all things you would have demanded and if you would not I cannot tell what to say to it L. Stafford Truly I could not take a Copy because I did not know where it was I desire my Lord Chief Justice may be asked where it is that is all I desire and I will then go on L. H. Stew. I think Dr. Oats does say at this time that he had seen Letters of your Lordships offering your Correspondence and Assistance L. Stafford If Dr. Oats will own he said no more than is in that Affidavit I am content Lord High Steward Have you any Copy of your own Examination Doctor Oats Dr. Oats Yes my Lords I think I have it here L. H. Stew. Marry that is very well produce it then Do you oppose it Gentlemen Managers No we agree we desire the Truth may come out Then Dr. Oats looking amongst his Papers drew out one and offered it to the Court. L. H. Stew. Is that a true Copy of your first Examination Dr. Oates My Lords I will not swear it but it was given me for a true Copy L. H. Stew. By whom was it given you Dr. Oates I can't remember now 't is two years ago Sir W. Jones Unless we know whence it comes or what authority it hath we cannot consent it should be read L. H. Steward Had you it from my Lord Cheif Justice or any servant of his Dr. Oates I can't tell whether Sir Charles Harbord gave it me or no. Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Sir Charles Harbord might be of the Committee of Examinations but the Examination for which my Lord asked was not in the Committee nor before the house My Lord chief Justice retired out of the house Virtute Officii took it Now it was very fair in Mr.
Death of the King For the Party is indicted upon one particular Overt Act but he is indicted for Treason in Conspiring the Death of the King and each of thâ— Witnesses being to prove that though they speak to several Acts they are good Witnesses according to the Law Mr. Baron Weston My Lords I am of the same Opinion with my Reverend Brethren who have spoke before me Mr. Justice Charlton My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I think truly it would be the easiest matter for a man to Commit Treason and escape without questioning if it should be otherwise But this is the first time that I have heard it hath been made a Question that to the same Treason there must be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. It hath been adjudged always according to the Law that to prove Treason there must be two Witnesses but to any Overt Act there needs but onâ— Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford By the uniform Opinion of all my Lords the Judges there is no colour to doubt the Law in that point which you desire to argue So that as to that point you must rest satisfied you are not to have Counsel to speak to it For the rest I have no Commission yet from my Lords to say any thing Lord Stafford Will your Lordships give me leave to say one thing to what I have heard I would answer if I might only to one Judge I think they call him Judge Atkins Lord High Steward Your Lordship may say what you please Lord Stafford My Lords I hear a strange Position I never heard the like before in my life and 't is what he said if I am in the wrong I beg your Lordships pardon and his too He told your Lordships the Reason why the Law should be so was because else a great many of those persons that have already been Executed must have been acknowledged unjustly cut off and put to Death that is an Argument I hope will not weigh with your Lordships or any body for 't is better that a Thousand persons that are Guilty should escape than that one Innocent person should die much more then that it should not be declared that such a Judgment was not well given Lord High Steward Look you my Lord where many Reasons are given 't is easie to make a Reply to one of the least among many that was one Reason given but the true Reason is this if the Law were otherwise there would be great safety in Conspiring the Death of the King Lord Stafford My Lords I say nothing further as to the rest but this stuck with me I am sorry to hear a Judge should say any such thing and though I am in such a weak and disturbed Condition I assure your Lordships my Blood rises at it Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber The Lords withdrew in their Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they have ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to the Bar in Westminster-Hall on Munday morning next at Ten of the Clock After which the House of Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock on Munday morning The Sixth Day Munday December 6. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven in the morning the Lords being Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there Erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were Seated as before The Court being Sate Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant Commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward began Lord High Steward Read my Lord Stafford's Petition To the Right Honourable the Lords in Parliament Assembled The humble Petition of William Viscount of Stafford Humbly shewing unto your Lordships that he hath some things to offer unto your Lordships in order to clear himself which he hopeth to do Your Petitioner doth therefore with all humility most humbly beseech your Lordships to give him leave to offer some things unto your Lordships Consideration And your Petitioner shall ever pray c. Stafford Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford my Lords have been willing upon your Petition to come and hear what that is that your Lordship hath to offer And they would know whether it be matter of Fact or matter of Law For your Lordship must know that as to Witnesses the Process is closed Lord Stafford I do not pretend any more Witnesses my Lords Lord High Steward Then my Lord what is it that you would say Lord Stafford My Lords I did Yesterday receive an Order from your Lordships and upon that and some other things that I have to trouble your Lordships with I did petition for this favour which I humbly thank your Lordships for granting If I be impertinent I shall beg your Lordships pardon and I hope you will be pleased to consider my Weakness at all times especially in this condition I am now in but I hope by your Lordships favour to be in an happier one quickly For the matters of proof I shall offer not a tittle but my Lords this Order which I received does say That the Lords Assembled in Parliament have ordered that my Counsel shall not be heard touching the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament but I hope my Lords you will please without Offence to let me offer to your Lordships my own Conceptions about it which I shall do as briefly as I can My Lords I do not conceive by this Order That your Lordships say it does or it does not continue You have given no Judgment as I know of in it when you have I shall acquiesce but I hope your Lordships will resolve that it does not And my Lords my reasons for it are two the first is because one of the Managers for the House of Commons as I take it Sir William Jones said these words and your Lordships may remember them That if there were no such President your Lordships would make a President whether you will or no that I must submit to your Lordships but then there is none yet The next thing is my Lords this whether an Impeachment be to be prosecuted in Parliament without an Indictment this my Lords I humbly hope your Lordships are resolved it ought not For I see not how truely my Lords it can be by the little reading which I have had in the Law I never found any man prosecuted in a Legal way but by an Indictment I may be mistaken and I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my mistakes but I never read of any that were prosecuted upon an Impeachment so then the Legal usual word being Indictment
disturbance But we desire your Lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the Clerk to read may not introduce a Custom which may in time grow inconvenient for future Example I see no great danger in the particular Instance before your Lordships now but it is dangerous in such Cases to do any thing that is new in this Court Lord High Steward All the matter is whether it be read by my Lord who cannot be heard or read by the Clerk Sir Thomas Lee. We only oppose it out of fear of making a President which may be of ill consequence Lord High Steward Read it my Lord and raise your voice for it concerns you to speak out Lord Stafford Reading out of his Paper My Lords when I offered Matter of Law to your Lordships on Saturday last I did in no wise admit the Matter of Fact to be true that was alledged against me and so I desire to be understood And I hope your Lordships will not lay the less weight upon the Testimony of my Witnesses because they are not sworn for the Law does not suffer them to be sworn which is no fault of mine nor ought not to turn to my Prejudice I must appeal to your Lordships Judgments in point of Fact how far the Kings Witnesses are to be believed against me considering the whole matter and my Counter-proof Next I submit to your Lordships Judgments this point That the Impeachment being founded upon the Common Law and the Statute of 25 th Edw. 3. and not upon the Statute of 13 th of this King two of the Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervill do only swear Treasonable words spoken by me and not my Overt Act for they swear only that I promised them Money and Rewards to kill the King Now I humbly pray your Lordships Judgment whether bare speaking of words be an Overt Act and Treason at the Common Law or upon that Statute and whether there be more than speaking of Words in a Consult or otherwise proved by Dugdale and Turbervill I appeal to you then the other Witness Oats is but a single Witness who speaks of the receiving of a Commission This is that I offer to your Lordships now for your Judgments and then I desire I may have your Opinion in other things Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship hath to say Lord Stafford For the present my Lords Lord High Steward You must say all you have to say now Lord Stafford Is it your Lordships pleasure to hear Counsel to nothing at all I did likwise alledge to your Lordships th' other day that People that swear for Money are not competent credible Witnesses how far that was proved or I may prove by my Counsel I submit to your Lordships Lord High Stewared Look you my Lord you have so far received already the pleasure of the House You have raised several Questions of Law whether every Overt Act require two Witnesses to prove it You have had the Opinion of the Judges and there is no more to be said in it As to that whether Impeachments continue from Parliament to Parliament and the other thing whether Proceedings may be upon an Impeachment without an Indictment these are matters of the Course and Constitutions of Parliaments my Lords will consider of them by themselves and will permit no Counsel to argue them For the other Point That words are no Overt Act that rests for their Opinion in another Case when it shall come for they have now no such Case before them Lord Stafford Thumbly conceive there is Lord High Steward There is a great difference between bare words being an Overt Act and perswasion by Promises of Money and Rewards to kill the King which is a very great Overt Act. Lord Stafford Is it possible to do an Act by Words If it be so I never heard it before Lord High Steward Otherwise men may promise Rewards to â—0 several persons to kill the King and then say 't is all but Words Lord Stafford I say it not but I humbly conceive the Law says it Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Lord Stafford My Lords I have something to say which I desire to speak first My Lords I hope I have cleared to your Lordships that all the Witnesses have swore false against me and this I have made out by Proofs I say not much to that My Lord was searching for his Papers Truly my Lords I am confounded with the Noise and other Circumstances but my Lords I shall if your Lordships please to give me leave humbly represent my Case to you how I take it to be in matter of Fact as to my own Condition not any thing but how I am now before your Lordships I was my Lords committed by my Lord Chief Justices Warrant on the 20. or 21. of October 78. Friday the 25. of October I was brought to your Lordships Bar I was Impeached I do not remember the day my Lords the beginning of December in one Parliament Articles exhibited against me in another Parliament I was brought upon these Articles exhibited and being called to your Lordships Bar the Articles were read to me and I gave in my Answer that was sometime in May 79. and in the end of May the 27. if I mistake not if I do I desire it may be rectified by your Books I with the other Lords were brought to this place in order to our Trial. We staid some time there and then were remanded by your Order to the Tower where I continued till November twelve month after without having heard any thing concerning it so that I was first Impeached in one Parliament Articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second and now brought to my Trial in a third and what your Lordships will say upon this I submit to you and whether these be Proceedings according to Law your Lordships will judge My Lords I humbly conceive that Magna Charta says That Justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man whether it hath not been delayed to me let your Lordships judge If you say the Prorogation of the Parliament is the cause of that delay I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say That from the 5. of December to the 30. when the first Parliament was Prorogued or during the Session of the other Parliament there was time enough sure wherein I might have been brought to my Trial and if these proceedings be lawful and just there is no man living but may be kept off from time to time till some Accidents happen that their ends may be gained I leave it to your judgment whether it may be only my Case now or of some of your Lordships in future Ages to be accused of things that you never heard of before and not brought to justifie your selves but kept in Prison My Lords There is a Statute I have forgot where it is but such a one I have read that though
THE TRYAL OF WILLIAM VISCOUNT STAFFORD FOR HIGH TREASON In Conspiring the Death of the KING The Extirpation of the PROTESTANT RELIGION The Subversion of the GOVERNMENT and Introduction of POPERY into this Realm Upon an IMPEACHMENT BY THE Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled In the Name of Themselves and of All the COMMONS OF ENGLAND Begun in Westminster-Hall the 30. day of November 1680. and continued until the 7. of December following on which day Judgment of High Treason was given upon him With the Manner of his Execution the 29. of the same Month. Dublin Reprinted by Jos Ray at College-Green and are to be sold by S. Helsham Job North Jos Howes and the rest of the Booksellers of Dublin 1681. The TRYAL of William Viscount Stafford Begun in Westminster-Hall November 30. 1680. The First Day WIlliam Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis having been formerly impeached in the House of Lords of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences by the House of Commons in the Name of Themselves and of all the Commons of England And the House of Commons having sent a Message to the Lords to acquaint them with the Resolution of that House to proceed to the Tryal of those Lords then in the Tower and forthwith to begin with the said Viscount Stafford and to desire their Lordships to appoint a convenient day for the Tryal of the said Viscount Stafford their Lordships did thereupon appoint the 30. day of November 1680. for his Trial And a place in Westminster-Hall having been for that purpose erected the same was as followeth viz. Therein were both Seats and Wool-packs correspondent in all points to those in the House of Lords as also a State placed at the upper end thereof with a Cabinet for the King and whom His Majesty should think fit to attend him there on the right hand the State and the like on the left hand for the Queen and her Followers As also Galleries over head for Ambassadors and others And to the end that the Commons might be fitted with Seats upon this great occasion there were erected for them on each side divers Benches on several degrees extending to the utmost Walls of the Hall At the lower end the Bar whereunto the Prisoners were to be brought being placed on the right hand thereof was a place raised about five Foot wherein the Witnesses were to stand and on the left hand a convenient Room for those particular Members of the House of Commons which were to manage the Evidence And the Right Honourable Heneage Lord Finch Baron of Daventry Lord High Chancellor of England being by His Majesties Special Letters Patent bearing date the 30. of November 1680. Constituted Lord High Steward for that present occasion upon Tuesday the said 30. of November the Lord High Steward was honorably attended from his House in Queen-street by all the Judges of His Majesties Courts in Westminster-Hall in their Robes as also by Garter Principal King of Arms in His Majesties Coat of Arms and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod unto whom His Majesty had the day before delivered the White Wand to be carried before his Lordship and about nine of the clock in the morning set forwards in his Coach towards Westminster sitting at the hinder end thereof Garter and the Gentleman who bore the Great Seal sitting both uncovered at the other end one of the Setjeants at Arms with his Mace being placed on the right side the Coach and the Usher of the Black Rod carrying the VVhite VVand on the left side the Judges and his Lordships Gentlemen in several Coaches following after Being thus come to the Stairs-foot ascending to the House of Peers the Judges went up two and two together the Juniors first next the Lord High Steward's Gentlemen after them the Serjeant at Arms with his Mace and the Seal bearer and lastly the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod bearing the VVhite VVand Garter principal King of Arms going on his right hand Then his Lordship alone his Train born by one of his Gentlemen in this manner entring the House of Peers he found all the Lords in their Scarlet Robes also the Bishops in their Rochets and took his place upon the uppermost Woolsack This done and Prayers ended his Commission for Lord High Steward was read And then the Bishops receded and the Lords Adjourned themselves into the new erected a Court in VVestminster-Hall All things being thus in readiness and a large Door-place broken through the upper end of VVestminster-Hall into that Room which was heretofore the Court of VVards Their Lordships passed from their House first into the Painted Chamber then through that called the Court of Requests Thence turning on the left hand into that called the Court of VVards then entred at the Door so broke down as aforesaid into VVestminster Hall and passed through a long Gallery placed between the King's Bench and Chancery Courts into this New erected Court in VVestminster-Hall and proceeded after this manner viz. First the Assistants to the Clerk of the Parliament Then the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery and Clerk of the Parliament after them the Masters in Chancery two and two and the King's Attorney General alone Then the Judges of all Courts in VVestminster-Hall by two and two Next to them Noblemens Eldest Sons After them Four Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces Next the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. Then all the Noble Men according to their respective Degrees the Juniors first viz. Barons Viscounts Earls Great Officer viz. Lord Chamberlain of the Houshould Marquesses Dukes Great Officers Lord Privy Seal Great Officers Lord President of the Council Then Four more Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces After them the Gentleman carrying the Great Seal Then one of His Majesties Gentlemen Ushers daily-waiters carrying the White Wand Garter Principal King of Arms going on his right Hand Then the Lord High Steward alone having his Train born and after him his Highness Rupert Duke of Cumberland a Prince of the Blood This done and the whole House of Peers having taken their Places according to their Degrees the Commons being also Seated on each side and the Managers in the Room appointed for them the Commons being all bare The Lord High Steward after obeysance made towards the State took his place upon the uppermost Wool-sack and thereupon receiving the VVhite VVand from Garter and the Gentleman Usher upon their Knees delivered it to the Usher of the Black Rod who held it during the time of Sitting there Having so done his Lordship said Cryer make Proclamation of Silence Then the Cryer a Serjeant at Arms made Proclamation thus All manner of Persons are straitly commanded to keep Silence upon pain of Imprisonment God save the King Lord High Steward Make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring the Prisoner to the Bar. Cryer Oyes Oyes Oyes Lieutenant
Forreign Forces and to surprize seize and destroy His Majesties Navy Forts Magazines and places of strength within this Kingdom whereupon the Calamities of War Murders of Innocent Subjects Men Women and Children Burnings Rapines Devastations and other dreadful Miseries and Mischiefs must inevitably have ensued to the ruine and destruction of this Nation 5. And the said Conspirators have procured and accepted and delivered out several Instruments Commissions and Powers made and granted by or under the Pope or other Vnlawful and Vsurped Authority to raise and dispose of Men Moneys Arms and other things necessary for their wicked and traiterous Designs and namely a Commission for the said Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour to be Lord Chancellor of England another Commission to the said William Earl of Powis to be Lord Treasurer of England another Commission to the said John Lord Bellasis to be General of the Army to be raised another Commission to the said William Lord Petre to be Lieutenant General of the same Army and a Power for the said William Viscount Stafford to be Paymaster of the Army 6. That in order to encourage themselves in Prosecuting their said wicked Plots Conspiracies and Treasons and to hide and hinder the Discovery of the same and to secure themselves from Justice and Punishment the Conspirators aforesaid their Complices and Confederates have used many wicked and diabolical Practices viz. They did cause their Priests to Administer to the said Conspirators an Oath of Secrecy together with their Sacrament and also did cause their said Priests upon Confessions to give their Absolutions upon Condition that they should conceal the said Conspiracy And when about the Month of September last Sir Edmundbury Godfrey a Justice of Peace had according to the Duty of his Oath and Office taken several Examinations Informations concerning the said Conspiracy and Plot the said Conspirators or some of them by Advice Assent Counsel and Instigation of the rest did incite and procure divers Persons to lie in wait and pursue the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey divers days with intent to Murder him which at last was perpetrated and effected by them for which said horrid Crimes and Offences Robert Green Henry Berry and Lawrence Hill have since been Attainted and Dominick Kelly and Girald and others are fled for the same After which Murder and before the Body was found or the Murder known to any but the Complices therein the said Persons falsly gave out that he was alive and privately Married And after the Body found dispersed a false and malitious Report That he had Murdered himself Which said Murther was committed with design to stifle and suppress the Evidence he had taken and had knowledge of and discourage and deter Magistrates and Others from Acting in further Discovery of the said Conspiracy and Plot For which end also the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey while he was alive was by them their Complices and Favourers threatned and discouraged in his proceedings about the same 7. And of their further Malice they have wickedly contrived by many false Suggestions to lay the Imputation and Guilt of the aforesaid Horrid and Detestable Crimes upon the Protestants that so thereby they might escape the Punishments they have justly deserved and expose the Protestants to great Scandal and subject them to Persecution and Oppression in all Kingdoms and Countries where the Romish Religion is received and professed All which Treasons Crimes and Offences above mentioned were Contrived Committed Perpetrated Acted and done by the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and other the Conspirators aforesaid against our Sovereign Lord the KING His Crown and Dignity and against the Laws and Sta tutes of this Kingdom Of all which Treasons Crimes and Offences the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament Assembled do in the Name of themselves and of all the Commons of England Impeach the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And the said Commons by protestation saving to themselves the liberty of exhibiting at any time hereafter any other Accusations or Impeachments against the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And also of replying to the Answers which they and every of them shall make to the Premises or any of them or to any other Accusation or Impeachment which shall be by them Exhibited as the cause according to Course and Proceedings of Parliament shall require do pray that the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them be put to Answer all and every the Premises And that such Proceedings Examinations Trials and Judgments may be upon them and every of them had and used as shall be agreeable to Lâ—v and Justice and Course of Parliament The Humble Answer of William Viscount of Stafford now Prisoner in His Majesties Tower of London to the Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors exhibited against him and others to the Right Honorable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament by the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled in the name of themselves and of the Commons of England THe said Viscount saving to himself all advantage and benefit of Exceptions to the generality incertainty and insufficiency of the said Impeachment most humbly beseeching their Lordships thereof to take due notice and thereunto at all times to have a just regard He answereth and saith That he is not Guilty of all or any of the Offences charged against him by the said Impeachment and for his Tryal humbly and willingly putteth himself upon his Peers no ways doubting but that by the Grace of God and their Lordships impartial Justice he shall make his Innocence appear All which he most humbly submitteth unto their Lordships further Consideration Stafford Lord High Steward Gentlemen of the House of Commons be pleased to proceed Then Mr. Serjeant Maynard one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began as followeth My Lords MAy it please your Lordships By the Command of the House of Commons who have imposed upon Us this Task we are here to Prosecute this great Charge against the Prisoner the Lord at the Bar. My Lords There are two Parts that are in this great Charge there is a General which is the Subversion of the whole Nation the King Himself to be Murdered the Protestant Religion to be Suppressed War to be introduced and those other things that are expressed in the Articles This General is charged in particular upon this Lord And my Lords it was in consideration how far it was fit to meddle with this General at this particular Tryal For if this Lord be guilty of such Crimes it will
we find it is no new thing look into all the Nations where the Pope hath any Power or a possibility of hope to gain a Power nothing hath been able to stand in their way but they have broken through all the Bonds of Nature and other Obligations to attain their Ends. Look into Spain King Philip there removed his own Son by what means the Story tells us he was Heir apparent but he was a Protestant and there also the Father puts Fire to his own Daughter because she was a Protestant there a Spaniard goes from Spain into Germany to murder and did murder his Brother for no other cause but because he was a Protestant Leave Spain and go into France what Massacres have been committed there under the colour of a Marriage in Queen Elizabeth's time and before that how many hundred Albingenses and Waldenses have been put to the Sword for Religion Come we to our own Country and look into England what hath been done here when Queen Elizabeth had a Successor of another Religion how many Attempts were there made upon her Person to bring that Successor in When King James came to the Crown let us remember the Gunpowder Treason wherein all the Nation was to be destroyed King Lords and Commons together and in Parliament assembled were then to be a Sacrifice a Burnt-offering though they might call it a Peace-offering for these Gentlemen are for Sacrifices of Blood as Peace-offerings to reconcile us to the Pope If this be made out we think their Principles having produced these fruits in other Ages we may believe they would do so now What has been said as History of former times is not offered as Evidence of Fact to the present Case but induces a probability that what hath been done by such persons may be done by them again But my Lords we shall make it clear and bring it home to this Lord that he hath had his Head his Tongue his Hand his Heart and his Purse in this damnable and horrible Contrivance and Treason for the destroying of the King the Government our Religion and our Nation We shall bring it home to him But my part is only to open the general Conspiracy And indeed my Lords it is an heavy burden on my aged Shoulders considering that the Winter of Infirmity and Age is growing so fast upon me My Lords the particulars concerning this Noble Lord because the Credit of it rests on the Testimony only of one man viz. Mr. Oats whose Testimony being taken by Sir Edmunbury Godfrey a Justice of Peace and kept in writing by him then Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was way-laid and murdered by men of the Popish Religion thereby to suppress the Examination that he had taken This startled and opened the eyes of the world to look about us for farther Discovery lest we should be led as Oxen to the slaughter not knowing whether we went Afterward it pleased God to bring some of their own Religion and party to make farther Discovery Whereupon several Jesuits Guilty of the Plot were therefore Prosecuted and brought to Judgment and Death After the Murder of Godfrey several Fables were spread abroad as if he were alive and Married as was declared to several Lords others of the party Reported he had Murdered himself but his Body being found it was hard for the party to invent or tell whether he first strangled himself and then run himself through or first run himself through and then strangled himself that was a Dilemma to disprove their Fables touching Godfrey's Murder It then fell out that Mr. Bedlow came as a second Discoverer whose Testimony Concurred with Oats And then there being two Witnesses as is necessary in case of Treason the Design was to take off Bedlow that there should remain but one a single Witness In order to which Reading tempts Bedlow with Rewards to lessen his former Testimony and qualifies that which he had deposed positively was but matter of hear say For which Reading the Instrument in that Design and Attempt was Indicted and Convicted by three Witnesses and suffered accordingly But then this Attempt upon Bedlow failing the next Attempt was to take off Oats his Testimony by charging him with an Infamous offence for which purpose one Knox is imployed who Suborns Lane and Osborn and they Swore it against Oats But on Re-examination Confess the Subornation and Falshood of their Design and Knox and Lane are therefore Indicted and found Guilty Thus when the Treason was discovered the Murder of an Officer of Justice is made the means to hide it and then False and Infamous stories set on Foot of that Officer to hide that Murder and Perjury and Subornation the means to blast the Discoverers These wicked and ill practices we take to be a second reproof of the Plot both in general and particular the Records of which Convictions are here before your Lordships ready to be proved For Cui bono none would do such wicked practices but to hide a greater Sin and worse Designs if possible will be opened and proved by one to whom that is particularly appointed My Lords we speak this that the World may receive Satisfaction we will let our Evidence be all open and publick in the face of the Sun and shew we go not about by private Subornations though there are endeavours to encounter us by such My Lords If we make out these things here is Matter enough for the Satisfaction of the World as to the general Contrivance But my Lords As you sit here as Judges of this Lord the Prisoner at the Bar we must bring it down to particular Persons and we shall do it even to him that those things which were mentioned in General were his Contrivance at least-wise as a man highly deeply guilty of Conspiring the Kings Death and in order to that of raising an Army and the other things that have been opened My Lords I beseech you to pardon me if I have troubled you too long The Particulars were many and I have had little help to prepare it from any body but my self but I submit my self to your Lordships and hope that what is wanting in me will be supplyed by others that follow and I also hope you will find no defect in our Evidence at all whatsoever may have been in the opening of it Then Sir Francis Winnigton another of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords I Shall begin where Mr. Serjeant Maynard ended and confine my self to this Case as it stands before you and to open the particular Evidence relating to the Lord the now Prisoner at the Bar. My Lords I look upon the Cause of this day to be the Cause of the Protestant Religion and I doubt not but that Plot which has alarm'd all Christendom will be so clearly made out in this Tryal that the most malicious of our Enemies will henceforth want Confidence to deny it That the Religion of the Papists
after having required from him all possible obligations of Secrecy he told him plainly what great benefits would accrew to himself and what advantage to the Catholick Cause if he would make himself and the Nation happy by undertaking to kill the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel to God Almighty My Lord Stafford did believe the Witnesses did embrace this proposal warmly and therefore directed him to prepare to go for England and to go before hand from Paris to Deep where he would meet him and go over with him But it seems my Lord Stafford met with some diversion for he did not keep his word with him in coming and so this Gentleman being disappointed went over without him but fearing to be called upon to the same Service he returned back again suddenly and went into the French Army My Lords We shall produce these Witnesses against the Lord at the Bar and when they have proved to your Lordships what I have opened any one who was not acquainted with the Popish party would believe they would be at a loss how to acquit themselves from this Charge All manner of foul and indirect practices have been used by them to Terrifie to Corrupt and to Scandalize our Witnesses all manner of Objections have been made to our Evidence If the Witness does not come up to speak directly to every Point we are told he says nothing at all if he speaks directly they cry he is not to be believed Thus they have a ready answer to every Witness that has been or ever shall be produced either that he says nothing Material or that nothing that he says ought to have any Credit But we doubt not by this Tryal before your Lordships if we cannot stop their mouths at least to convince all the World besides of the reality of this Plot. It will be no wonder if their Confidence goes on still to frame Cavils They are used to scandalize the Government and they cannot give it over How often has His Majesty under his Great Seal published and declared this Conspiracy How often has he press'd His Parliaments to go on to bring the Conspirators to Punishment and at the opening of this very Parliament he says plainly That he does not believe himself safe from their Designs Your Lordships also have Voted the unquestionable Truth of the Plot and so have the Commons yet these men are so hardy as still to deny the plainest Truth so confirm'd as this hath been Nay My Lords Their Malice goes yet farther for they have been so Bold as to whisper up and down and industriously to spread Reports before the Trial as if this Lord at the Bar and the rest who are Impeached should certainly be acquitted We do hope to be able to detect the Authors of this great Scandal and the Commons doubt not of your Lordships Concurrence to assist them in bringing them to their deserved Punishment This is sure the first time that ever any sort of men presumed to Reflect upon the Justice of this High and Noble Court Your Ancestors my Lords did by their Honour Courage and Justice preserve our Ancestors The advantage of which We who are descended from them do now enjoy and We shall never have occasion to doubt in the least but that your Lordships will tread in their steps You have in your hands a great Opportunity to make your Zeal for Truth and for the Protestant Religion famous to Posterity No Artifice or Malice can Create the least Jealousie in us that ever your Lordships should shew any Partiality or Injustice to the Commons of England To your Judgement this Cause is submitted and when we have your Judgement we doubt not but we shall drive Popery out of this English World My Lords We shall go on to the proof of our Cause and I hope this will be a happy day to us and the whole Protestant Interest Then Mr. Treby also one of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords THese two Learned Gentlemen have fully discharged their Province I shall proceed to call our Witnesses to give their Testimony But before we produce them your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that our Evidence will consist of Two Parts general and particular the general to shew the Universal Conspiracy the particular to shew what special part this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar had in it And though in the first part my Lord Stafford may not be particularly named yet that Evidence will be pertinent and proper for us to give in this Trial of my Lord Stafford for we charge him not with the Private Treason wherein he with his immediate Complices only might be concerned but it is a Treason of the Popish Faction or at least the Principal and Active Papists We lay it in our Articles of Impeachment That there was an Execrable Plot contrived and carried on by the Papists and that the Conspirators acted diverse Parts and in diverse places beyond Sea as well as here It was a Treason that did bestâ—ide two Lands England indeed was the thing aimed at the destruction of the Religion Government and Liberty of England was the End but the Means and Instruments were not Collected here only but part of them were to be brought in from abroad This is an Enterprise too extensive to be intirely manag'd by a Single Nobleman And though we look upon my Lord Stafford as a great Malefactor yet we cannot think him so great a Man as to be able within his own Sphere to compass this whole Design Should we not take this course of Evidence first to prove the General Plot it might be a great and just objection in my Lords mouth to say You charge 〈◊〉 with a Design of Subverting the Kingdom how is that possible to be undertaken by me and those I have had opportunity to converse and confederate with a mighty part of the Catholick World had need be engaged for such a purpose My Lords If this would be a material Objection from this Lord then will it be requisite for us to obviate and prevent the Objection by shewing first that there was such a grand and universal design of Papists in which this Lord was to co-operate for his distinct share though perhaps when we descend to our particular Evidence it will appear that his part hath been great and manag'd with malice as great as any My Lords We shall begin with a Witness a Gentleman whose Education has given him the opportunity of knowing the inside of their Affairs and we presume he will give you a satisfactory account his name is Mr. John Smith Lord High Steward What do you call him to Gentlemen Mr. Treby To the General Plot my Lords Lord Stafford May it please your Lordships I know not who he is nor his Name I humbly beseech your Lordships that this Witness who ever he be and all the rest that have any thing to
gave us intelligence of several passages that happened in Court how the Duke and the Queen and the chief of the Nobility were of their side how they carried matters several times the ways my Lord Clifford did use and Sir William Godolphin to effect the work and that they did not question but they should get my Lord Treasurer Danby on their side too This was in Coleman's Letters and he had so much allowance for his Intelligence These Letters of his I read several times in the Colledge My Lords afterwards when I came from Rome I saw Abbot Montague again and he said he was very glad to see me and that I was a Priest well but said I what am I the better where is the Employment you promised me when I should come into England He told me I should have it very soon and he was very glad that I had not made my self a Jesuit and he recommended me to Dr. Goffe Confessor to the Queen Mother who said he would do any thing in the world for me and he did not doubt but he should get a preferment for me which Dr. Goffe is now living Truly when I came into England I found all the Popish Clergy of England that I discoursed with of the same opinion that they did not doubt but the Romish Religion would soon come in And besides in the North there was gathering of Money in which I was ordered to be one of the chief men but I was against it I told them I would do nothing in it I thought it was illegal to send any Money beyond Sea they told me it was charity only to repair the College at Doway I told them it was strange that there should be so much Money raised only to repair one College which would serve three or four Colleges and I perswaded Mr. Jenison and all other persons I had to do with not to meddle with it As to this raising of the Money I conceive it may be inferr'd it was for some other private business and I believe was for the carrying on the design As for the Gentleman at the Bar my Lord Stafford I know nothing of my own particular knowledge but only this Therewas one Thomas Smith Sir Edward Smith's Brother that lived at a place not far off the place where I lived who was one that contributed in paying the Money that was then Collecting he was the man that writ a Letter up to my Lord Stafford to complain of two or three Justices of the Peace that were active against Popery upon which there was one that was turned out that I think is now of the Honourable House of Commons Mr. Treby Name him Mr. Smith Sir Henry Calverley The other was not turned out So I asked Smith when I was lately in the Country about it for I heard a rumor that there was a Letter of this Mr. Smiths found in my Lord Staffords Chamber and I was told it by a Parliament Man one Collonel Tempest So said I to him now you will be concerned in the Plot. No said he I care not for that Letter it will signifie nothing for my Lord won't keep by him any thing of any moment I asked him what he knew about my Lord he told me he writ another Letter to my Lord to know whether he would make a conveyance of his Estate away and whether he apprehended they were in danger And he told me his Lordships answer was that several did so but he would not for he expected some sudden change or alteration I asked him what change or alteration he understood by it Sir said he what can be understood by it but an alteration of the Government and Religion I am sure said he my Lord is so wise a Man that he would not write so without some ground This is all I can say to the Gentleman at the Bar and this is true by the Oath I have taken Mr. Treby My Lords I did observe Mr. Smith in the beginning of his Testimony speaking of the Discourse he had at Rome said they told him there was one in the way I presume 't is not uneasy to conjecture who was that one Lord High Stew. It was surely the King Mr. Treby But we would rather have it explained by him himself Mr. Smith Father Anderton and Father Southwell did say that the King was a good man but he was not for their turn and he was the only man that stood in the way Mr. Treby Did they name the King Mr. Smith Yes it was the common Discourse all over the Country Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Smith in the next place may give an account of the methods they were to use to accomplish this design the firing of the City and the rest Mr. Smith As to the burning of London I heard nothing beyond Seas at all but this it was discoursed that the Papists did it and the like but they denied it and they said it came accidentally in a Bakers House but this I have often heard them say that it was no great matter if it had been all burnt Lord High Stew. Will you ask him any more Questions yet Mr. Treby No we have done with him Lord High Stew. Have you concluded your Evidence Sir Mr. Smith Yes Lord High Stew. My Lord Stafford will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford I desire to know how long ago it was my Lord since he was made a Priest Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships leave no man is bound to answer a Question whereby he shall accuse himself therefore under favour the Question is somewhat harsh and we demand your Judgment in it Lord High Stew. What is the Question your Lordship would have asked him L. Stafford I will not ask it since 't is an offence but did not he say he said Mass pray how long ago was that Lord High Stew. I will ask him a Question Are not you a Protestant Mr. Smith Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. How long have you been so Mr. Smith I have been a Protestant near upon two Years Lord High Stew. How long ago before were you perverted Mr. Smith Some six or seven Years Lord High Stew. That is nine Years That was I suppose about 71. Mr. Smith I was always bred a Protestant and was so abroad till I went towards Rome Lord High Stew. It is not criminal to have been a Priest if he have conformed L. Stafford I have no more to say to him Lord High Stew. Have you any more Questions to ask him L. Stafford No I never saw him before he may be as honest a Gentleman for ought I know as any one here Mr. Treby Then if your Lordship have no more Questions to ask him he may withdraw My Lords The next Witness we produce is to the general still and that is Mr. Stephen Dugdale Lord Stafford Is he only to speak to the general or to me Mr. Treby To the general we shall tell your Lordship
redily produce them but for my self I must answer and I think my Companions will say so too that we do not know where these Affidavits are nor of any Variation in those Affidavits from what is now sworn but whatever they were they were taken for the Information of the House of Commons who are the Prosecutors in this Cause and who are no Judges Now if my Lord will bring any Witness that will say this Witness of ours did before a Justice of Peaee depose so and so and says the contrary now there might be then just reasons to look after these Affidavits and to have them produced but upon a bare imagination that there is a Variance where in truth there is none and the Truth may otherwise be known to desire that these Affidavits that never were before you should be produced whether such a Suggestion is to be admitted I humbly submit it to your Lordships Consideration L. Stafford My Lords if these Gentlemen that are the Managers for the House of Commons will aver to your Lordships that there is no Variation in them I will submit to them and be quiet if they will say it was not debated in the House whether he should amend or no. L. H. Stew. Look you he puts it upon you so far Gentlemen that if you will take it upon you to aver that there is no Variation between those Affidavits upon which you grounded your Impeachment and the Evidence you have given upon the Trial of your Impeachment he will not give you the trouble L. Stafford I beseech you let me say one word my Lords I have been thus long a Prisoner I was as far from being proceeded against now as any of the rest of the Lords in the Tower till Turbervile came in with his Discovery and I believe I am now called the sooner which I am glad of and I give the Gentlemen thanks for it upon the Affidavit of Turbervile I desire that Affidavit and though it be true the House of Commons give no Oath yet they appointed two Members of the House that were Justices of the Peace of Middlesex to take it upon Oath and he desired the next day to amend it and I put my self upon them whether this be not true L. H. Stew. What say you Sir to it Sir W. Jones My Lord I cannot answer because I don't hear L. Stafford My Lord I say this I do observe that Mr. Turbervile whose face I never saw in my life that I know of till to day nor never spoke a word to him and I shall prove that no Servant that ever I had see him did depose for the purpose to day that he was in the Years 73. and 76. in such and such places and that he did speak with me at Doway and Paris and to Morrow recollecting his Notes he found he was mistaken in his Affidavit that he had made before and desired to mend it and brought it to the Years 72. and 75. there was some Debate in the House about it whether they should permit him to mend it I appeal to all the Gentlemen whether it were not so L. H. Stew. Your labour is to have two Affidavits that you do presume will do your business in order to the finding out a variety of time of his being at Doway or at Paris That which does press your Lordship we know in Turbervile's Evidence is That at Paris in the Room below of your Lodging you encouraged him to kill the King and you were to have met him at Diep to know his mind but you came not and he went away if you have it in the Affidavit quite contrary to this you say somewhat L. Staff My Lords I beseech you it presses me and every man in England not to be run down by a Fellow that forswears himself for him to swear one thing to day and another thing to morrow is Perjury L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir W. Jones What was done in the House of Commons it does not become any of us that are Members to disclose But I have heard and will admit it that in the Depositions the Witness made before a Justice of Peace there was a year put down which he going home and upon sight of Letters and Papers found it to be mistaken he comes the next day and desires to alter it if this be for my Lords Service we shall grant it Mr. Serj. Maynard 'T is on or about too L. H. Stew. What say you my Lord now L. Staff I do say my Lord I am informed by what I have heard cursorily for I have not seen one of the House of Commons before the day of my Tryal that though in his second Deposition he named the years 72. and 75. yet I can prove him perjured as to what he hath sworn here to day L. H. Stew. Since 't is insisted upon Gentlemen that there is a Variety in the last Deposition from what he swore at first what can you say why he should not have the avail of his Exception Sir Will. Jones My Lords whether your Lordships will think fit to consider by what ways and means the House of Commons informed themselves in order to Impeachments I submit to you and for those things that still remain in the hands of the Commons I suppose you will be pleased to consider how you can send for them to inform you We would not be mistaken in the matter let not any one that hears us think that we are conscious there is the least Variation nay we are confident if the thing were produced it would turn to my Lords prejudice but what is done in this Case may be a President for the future and therefore we cannot without resorting to the House consent to deliver any thing the House took for their Information Therefore if your Lordships stand upon it and incline to have it done we must resort to the House to ask their leave whether we shall do it or no. L. H. Stew. I cannot tell what my Lords will incline to do but I desire when you are gone back you will consider how far it will make the matter easie to my Lord. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we can give no Answer to that till we have attended our House Mr. Serj. Maynard I desire your Lordships to consider what a piece of cunning he hath put upon both Houses to pass by his villifying our Witnesses which I may say was not comely But if he makes any Question it must be put to the Houses upon supposition to be a Question and so he would bring things only to this issue to put off the Cause for to day He ought to put that which might probably be something of a Question Let him instance in particulars and make out his Evidence not seign things to put off the Cause for ought I see 't is to no other end and 't is a Jesuitical trick I think L. Stafford I feign nothing I have
been told this that I speak here and I desire it may be proved Lord High Steward If you are bound up so that you cannot consent I can t help it Mr. Serj. Maynard Let him put the Fact my Lords and not suppose and imagine Things and then raife Questions L. H. Stew. It is usual in these Cases for the Gentlemen of the House of Commons to stay till the Lords are withdrawn and expect their Lordships Resolution perhaps they may so order it that you need not go back Sir Will. Jones I desire before your Lordships withdraw that it may be taken notice of by your Lordships that for the matter of the variation of the year we do admit it My Lord is not pleased to mention any other particular matter of the Affidavit but only says in general that it is contrary to what he says to day if my Lord would tell us wherein perhaps we should admit it or answer it or take it into further consideration but to make so general an Allegation and give your Lordships no particular account we submit whether such a suggestion ought to be regarded Lord High Steward Is there any further variation besides the variation of the year L. Staff I cannot say there is my Lord I do not know it but I do really believe in my Conscience there is from what I have heard but however I insist upon it and demand your Judgment Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I humbly desire one word as to the Objection that hath been made that he hath prayed your Lordships to grant him the sight of such and such Papers The nature of this Cause my Lords we know is such that there was never the like number of Papers known as to the General Plot and my Lord that is the Prisoner at the Bar may as well demand to morrow such a particular Paper and the next day another that he hath heard of in the General Plot and where will the end of this be So that if the thing be granted upon the variation of the time that it was immediately rectifyed and he cannot produce any grounds that may satisfie your Lordships why he should have that Paper you may as well suffer him to demand any other Paper after and so never end the Cause L. H. Stew. Your Lordship hath been told and you shall find it that you shall have as fair and equal an Hearing as is possible and nothing shall be denied you that is just and reasonable to safe your Life or make your Defence But pray my Lord for so much as is upon the Journal which you may resort unto you may easily know what answer my Lords will give to that but for this other thing if it be only the variety you alledge of the Time and the Year and you do desire it to look for other Exceptions and you pray the help of the Lords to see such a Paper that you might make inquiry after other varieties Do you think they are to help you to find out Exceptions to the Witnesses L. Stafford I do not desire their Lordships to help me to find out Exceptions but I have told your Lordships of one Exception to the Affidavit which these Gentlemen acknowledge to be true and the other Affidavit is that he Swears I spoke to him at Doway in the year 72 or 73 which I can disprove and then I say he Swearing several things false he is no credible Witness L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to your Lordship that he did mistake the time L. Stafford It is admitted that he said he spoke to me at Doway L. H. Stew. How very an easie matter were it to expedite this Process by allowing the Prisoner his demand in this particular Sir Will. Jones I never saw it and a great many of the Managers say they never saw it L. Stafford These Gentlemen say I did it to put off the Cause I am far from it for though I am in a condition very unfit to manage my Defence faint and weak with speaking so long and hardly able to speak any more yet I desire to finish this night and if I see it now it will be enough I shall not desire to have a Copy to advise with my Counsel or any body else L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons will you observe my Lord as weary as he is would make an end of the matter presently if you would but send for the Affidavit Mr. Foley My Lords it is not in our hands here if the House of Commons will order it it may be done we cannot order it of our selves Mr. Powle My Lords this is a Paper that does properly belong to the House and I do think that none of us here that are Managers for this Trial will undertake it shall be delivered without resorting to the House for their Opinion for though I do verily beleive and am fully persuaded that what this Noble Lord at the Bar does object will not appear to be so For I think there is not any thing of my Lord Staffora's speaking with this Witness at Doway mentioned therein yet how far the Presidents of this may reach in other Cases I think is worthy the Consideration of the House And we cannot presume to offer any thing in it to your Lordships until you be pleased to give us leave to go and resort thither Then the Lords withdrew and after an Hours and an Halfs space returned and Proclamation was made for Silence L. H. Steward My Lord Viscount Safford my Lords have considered of the Demands you made and my Lords upon the Debate of the Reasons of your Demands are come to this Resolution Your Lordship did demand in the first place that you might have a sight of the Journal and have the Papers lodged in the House of Peers My Lords take notice that this Demand which your Lordship now makes is a Demand that was granted you long ago about two years since you have an Order entred upon the Books that your Lordship should have Copies of every thing in that House and if your Lordship have not taken out Copies and if any thing is missing to your Lordship that is yet there extant 't is your Lordships fault However my Lords will command their Journals to be brought hither that your Lordship may make that use of them that may be of most profit to you For the other Demand touching the Affidavit supposed to be taken from Turbervile by the Justices of the Peace that my Lords upon Consideration had do find that there is no Obligation at all upon them as a Court to concern themselves in that Matter And therefore my Lords have made no Order in that Point but your Lordship must come provided as well as you can and the Court can do no more to help you in it For the rest my Lords did take notice that your Lordship said before they were withdrawn That you found your self very Faint and Weary and
that you were much spent in Discourse and Tired with what already you have done My Lords are extreamly willing to give your Lordship all the Favour and Accommodation possible for the Recollecting your self therefore my Lords will not now put you upon it to go on to make your Defence but will give you time till to Morrow L. Stafford I humbly give your Lordships thanks for your kindness and Favour to me but here I profess and call Almighty God to witness rather than I would have it thought I am willing to put it off I would have sunk down Dead at the Bar. But my Lords there was another Demand that I made Your Lordships say I shall have Copies of all the Journals and that you cannot help me to the Affidavit of Turbervile I submit to it without saying one word more but I desire that I may have brought hither to Morrow the Journals and other Papers in the Lords House but I desire also the two Affidavits of Dugdale taken the one the 24. the other the 29. of December following which Depositions were taken before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon in Stafford Town when Dugdale was in Prison L. H. Stew. Look you my Lord This is all under the same Rule What Evidence soever there is before the Court of Peers that you shall have whatsoever Evidence is not in that Court you ought to come provided of the Court is not to stay nor to help you to Evidence L. Staff My Lord I beg your pardon Dugdale made an Affidavit then and says the clean contrary now I desire nothing but Justice and I am sure I shall have all Justice from your Lordships L. H. Stew. Produce it and alledge what you will for your self it shall be heard L. Staff How then shall I be able to make my Defence if I have not those Papers which I humbly concieve by the Law ought to be brought These Gentlemen of the House of Commons say That I could not have Turbervile's Affidavit because it was in the House and they could not give it without consent of the House but this was examined before a Justice of Peace and returned to the Council Sure I shall have that I was examined by my Lord of Essex and my Lord of Bridgewater upon that Affidavit twice I think therefore that is material and necessary and I know your Lordships would not have me come to defend my self without Weapons L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford I do beseech your Lordship to be a little better informed in your own Business You have leave to make use of the Journal and all Papers that are entred there the Clerks say Dugdale's Oath is entred there L. Stafford Is the 24. of December there Clerk It is there L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord do not put the Court upon Interrogatories but come provided as well as you can L. Stafford If it be entred on the Journal Book I desire not the Original I am very well satisfied L. H. Stew. Will you be ready to go on to morrow my Lord L. Stafford I will withall my heart L. H. Stew. 'T is too late Gentlemen to go on to Night we must Adjourn till to Morrow Lord Stafford My Lords I had so much to write last Night that I had very little sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. My Lord I am not able to hear you I take as much pains to come near you as I can L. Stafford I had a great deal to write last Night I say and I want some sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. Will you be ready by Ten a Clock to Morrow L. Stafford I will be ready by Ten. L. H. Stew. I will move my Lords when they are withdrawn to Adjourn till Ten to Morrow But my Lord Stafford I do not know how your Lordship is provided or how you look after your own Business If you have not had Copies of the Journal all this while 't is you are in the fault A great deal of it is in Print you may send your Solicitor to the Clerk of the Parliament and take Copies of what you have need of I give you notice of it that if you come unprovided you may know it is your own fault L. Stafford I do acknowledge I have Copies of the Journal Book I think of all but I do not find any thing of Dugdale's second Deposition there L. H. Stew. Here is that of the 24. of December that you ask after send your Solicitor and then you shall have a Copy out of the Journal of it L. Stafford I assure your Lordship I will be ready to morrow if I can get those Copies Lord High Steward My Lords will give you as much Ease and all the Accommodations that are fit L. Stafford Then to morrow I will be ready by Ten a Clock if your Lordships please only I would desire your Lordships to take notice that these Gentlemen of the House of Commons do acknowledge that Turbervile swore one day to one year and the next day to another L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford you say you can be ready to morâ—ow at Ten a Clock Are you sure you can be ready then L. Stafford I say my Lords this I shall not be so ready as I shall be next day but I assure your Lordships I will rather sink down in the place where I am if you think fit than put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. Look you Gentlemen of the House of Commons in a Case of this consequence and of this Vital Importance to a Man as this is where is the inconvenience if there should be a days respite and the Court should Adjourn till Friday if my Lords be moved in it I make no direction but what inconvenience will be in it Will it not be every way as well Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships does not expect from us to give our consent to put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. I ask only what inconvenience it is Sir Will. Jones Your Lordships are the Judges and will do as you find it reasonable but this I say it is very unusual and scarce to be Presidented that when the Prosecutors have given an Evidence the Prisoner should have time a further considerable time to give his Answer to it the Prisoner knows before hand the general Scope and Drift of the Evidence therefore for him to have time till to morrow is a favour but to have more than that even a whole day to intervene is very unusual L. H. Stew. If that be all and the matter depend upon what is usual I do venture with my Lords leave to inform you that my Lord of Strafford had two days time after the Prosecution to give his Answer to what was said against him Sir William Jones That was an Evidence upon Twenty Eight Articles this but upon Two Heads and that was after a long Examination of many days L. Stafford My Lords
I had prepared my self for my Tryal as well as I could and had written down a few things that I intended to say and I profess before God as I am a Man and as I am a Christian of all I intended to say I have in a manner made use of very few words but as to what I had to say upon the Evidence I was forced to lay all aside because I wanted these Papers I have not eaten to day and being forced to lay aside all that I had written I shall need a whole day to write however I submit my self to your Lordships in that matter Lord High Steward My Lord if it be equal to your Lordship and your Lordship will be as ready to morrow as another day this Court will be more ready L. Stafford I assure your Lordships if your Lordships do give me another day I will not debate with my Counsel any one thing upon the Papers I have asked Lord High Steward Pray my Lord will you be pleased to make your demand to my Lords who are your Judges by what time you will be content to be foreclosed Lord Stafford My Lords if you will give me till Friday I shall be ready to give my Evidence and I will bring Witnesses sufficient I hope to prove my Innocency Sir Will. Jones My Lords we do not presume at all to offer our consent to what time the Court shall be Adjourned L. H. Stew. No we do not ask your Consent Sir Will. Jones And I hope your Lordships will not ask the Prisoners consent nor do it by his direction L. H. Stew. De morte hominis non est cunctatio longa Sir Will. Jones But we must desire your Lordships as we are entrusted by the House of Commons to Manage this Tryal to take notice that as we do not expect your Lordships should take the Measures from our Desires much less do we expect you should do it at the only instance of the Prisoner 'T is a great advantage to this Lord to choose his own time when he will please to answer our Evidence We do know very well that in this Case there have been Attempts to Suborn Witnesses and that we shall prove in due time and Attempts to destroy Witnesses too So that there hath been too much time lost already and I think to morrow is a very convenient time for him to make his Answer And I must observe to your Lordships that the Prisoner hath gained his end of not making his Answer this day by raising an Objection which in my Thoughts carried no great weight in it though when it was made your Lordships were pleased to Adjourn upon it But seeing he hath got his Point of deferring the making Answer till to morrow there can be no reason he should gain a further day since the Depositions may be ready by to morrow as well as by the next day And therefore we desire your Lordships will be pleased to go on in the Tryal to morrow L. H. Stew. You shall know their Lordships pleasure when they are withdrawn Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber So the Lords withdrew in their Order and the Commons went back to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House that they have ordered the Prisoner William Viscount Stafford to be brought to the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock And then the Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock next morning The Third Day Thursday December 2. 1680. AT the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before The Court being sat Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford this is the time appointed to hear what your Lordship hath to say in your Defence and to call your Witnesses Sir Will. Jones My Lords yesterday my Lord Viscount Stafford was pleased to make mention of an Affidavit of Mr. Turbervile taken before two Justices of the Peace wherein he was pleased to say there was some Amendment made and so indeed we did then acknowledg there was But he had a desire to see it notwithstanding our acknowledgment because he was informed that that which Turbervile swore then differed from what Turbervile swore yesterday My Lords at that time we had not the Affidavit nor was it proper for us to produce it for indeed it remained in the Justice of Peace's Hands that took it but now that his Lordship may have full satisfaction and not only his Lordship but also all that are present at this Tryal I do inform his Lordship that the Affidavit is in the hands of a Member of the House of Commons Sir Will. Poulteney by name and if his Lordship please he may have it produceed and make what use he can of it L. H. Stew. 'T is extream Honourably and Worthily done of the House of Commons and my Lord hath no manner of Exception left him L. Stafford My Lords if I shall have occasion to use it I shall call for it but I would first say something to your Lordships My Lords I first give your Lordships thanks for granting me the liberty to come so late to Day I have had a little sleep upon it Your Lordships heard yesterday when you had Dr. Oats at the Bar the first thing that he said as I remember was to desire you would be pleased to leave him to his own method I beg of your Lordships the same favour that I may begin with the one or the other Witnesses or with matter of Law as I please L. H. Steward God forbid but you should take your own Method in your Defence L. Stafford In order to which I desire first Mr. Turbervile may come to the Bar. L. H. Stew. Do you call Turbervile my Lord L. Stafford Yes my Lord I do L. H. Stew. He is there what say you to him L. Stafford My Lords I will ask him but one Question and I hope I shall have occasion to ask him no more When was the last time that he spoke with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervile I think I hear right I do not know My Lord Stafford asks when was the last time you spoke with his Lordship Mr. Turbervile It was in November 1675. L. Stafford I have very much to say against his Evidence but I hope your Lordships will not think him any Evidence against me or any body else But I desire your Judgment whether I be not within the compass of the time limited
he would be revenged of my Lord Stafford did you Sawyer No of my Lord Aston Then another time being at Stafford he owed me Twenty nine Pounds and he was under the Serjeants hands and then he promised me from time to time he would pay me and did not keep his word This was three or four days before he begun to peach He bid me come such a day and he would pay me part of the money and when I came thither he told me it was reported That he should be a Peacher and that there was a speech how that he should have two hundred pounds for informing that there were Fourteen Priests in the Country but he takes a Glass of Drink and Thomas says he by God I wish this may be my Damnation and my Poison if I know of any Plot or any Priests L. H. Steward Was not he a Papist then Sawyer I cannot absolutely tell that whether he was or no. L. H. Steward Do you know one Father Evers Sawyer My Lords I have seen him Lord High Steward Hath he never been at Tixal Sawyer Yes My Lords I have seen him there L. H. Stew. And have not you seen Dugdale in his Company Sawyer Yes I have L. H. Stew. Did not you at Tixal think Dugdale a stout able Fellow Sawyer No he never was accounted to be so L. H. Stew. Then I ask you if you thought him an honest man or a rich man Sawyer No my Lords for I 'll tell you more than that my Lord Aston employed him to be his Bayliff and receive his Rents and to pay Workmen their Wages which he received every Saturday aud my Lord Aston did Accompt with him where he did set his hand to receive the poor Workmens Wages according to their Bills when they had not been paid some of them whole years and half years and quarters And they came and cryed to my Lord that they were not paid and thereupon Dugdale did say That one of them had demanded more of my Lord than was his due for he said he had reckoned such a day with him and paid him so much money which man said he was not that day at Tixal and so he hindred him of part of his money L. H. Stew. Did you ever know that Dugdale did forswear himself Sawyer That I do not know my Lords I did hear he was concern'd in a Race about which there was a Tryal and a Dispute which had won This â— have heard by report Sir Fr. Winn. Speak your own knowledge not Reports L. H. Stew. I ask you do you remember the day when my Lord Stafford came to Tixal Sawyer He came on the 12. day of the month L. H. Stew. What September Sawyer Yes the 12. of September L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the Company of my Lord Stafford while he was at Tixal Sawyer No never in the House but at the Race he hath come into the Parlour Mr. Treby You had Discourse with Dugdale you say he took a Glass and drank and wished it might be his Poyson Was not Father Evers that time at my Lord Aston's Sawyer Not as I know of my Lords Mr. Treby Was he not commonly there Sawyer Yes Mr. Treby If he were Mr. Dugdale must know it and how then could he take a Glass and wish it were Poyson if he knew where any Priest was since it was apparent he knew where that Priest was 'T is most improbable Mr. Dugdale should say thus Sawyer My Lords this was three or four days e're he confessed any thing he knew of his knowledge Mr. Treby What Perswasion of Religion are you Sawyer Of the Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray my Lords ask him one Question he says Dugdale went away from my Lord Aston's was not there a speech of a Plot at that time that was discovered Sawyer Yes that I heard Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question more Was there no discourse of the Death of a Justice of Peace that was said to be killed in London about that time Sawyer To my best remembrance as I heard there was Mr. Dugdale My Lords if your Lordships please that I should call Witnesses to confront him now or afterwards Sir Will. Jones Not now stay till your time comes L. Stafford Then call Philips who stood up L. H. Stew What is your Name Sir Witness Ralph Philips L. H. Stew. What are you a Clergy-man Mr. Philips Yes L. H. Stew. Are you beneficed Mr. Philips Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Where Mr. Philips At Tixal my Lord. L. H. Stew. You are a person that knows the Obligation that lies upon you to give a true Testimony what can you say of Mr. Dugdale Mr. Philips My Lords I have very little to say concerning Stephen Dugdale as to any thing of the Plot but in reference to what he should relate concerning Mr. Sambidge and me in the Narrative which he deposed upon the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman He said then he did receive a Letter concerning the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey which was dated the 12. of October as I remember and that he did communicate the Letter to Mr. Sambidge and me immediately the next Tuesday Whereas I will assure you my Lords I never heard neither by Letter nor word of mouth from him nor any other till it was publickly known L. H. Stew. You did not live in my Lord Aston's house did you Mr. Philips No my Lords Sir Will. Jones We know not what he says we desire to understand what he means L. H. Stew. He takes notice that Dugdale at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman did depose touching a Letter dated the 12. of October which should come down to Tixal intimating the death of Sir Edmnndbury Godfrey and that he did communicate that with the Parson of Tixal and another which Parson comes now to say He did communicate no such a matter to him Sir VVill. Jones We desire to ask him whether he was present at that Tryal and heard him say so Mr. Philips I was not present at the Tryal but if the Narrative of the Tryal be truth he did say so L. H. Stew. So then you only come to disprove what is printed that Dugdale should say Mr. Philips Then I leave it to your Judgments whether what he said in the Narrative of that Tryal do concur with the Truth L. Stafford I desire then to ask him whether Stephen Dugdale did not run away from my Lord Aston's and would have him go to my Lord to own him for his Servant L. H. Steward What do you know of Dugdale's running away Mr. Philips I know nothing at all of that my Lords L. Stafford Whether he did speak to him for his Servant when he was in the Justices hands L. H. Stew. Can you say any thing touching the Credit of Dugdale Mr. Philips I have nothing to say concerning Dugdale's Credit L. H. Stew. Did you know him Mr. Philips Yes ever since I came
to Tixal L. H. Stew. How long is that Mr. Philips About fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Reputation had he in the Country was he looked upon as one that would perjure himself Mr. Philips I never knew any thing of that Lord High Steward Was he thought a stout man Mr. Philips He was in good repute with some and indifferent with others L. H. Stew. Will you call any more Witnesses my Lord L. Stafford I would only ask him one Question Whether he did go to my Lord Aston from Dugdale to know if he would own him for his Servant Lord High Steward What say you Sir did you Mr. Philips Yes my Lords he knows very well I did he did request me to go to him My Lord Aston I was loth to go to because I had no familiarity with him nor Interest in him but he did request and urge me so much that I did go by much motives and persuasions from him and I did speak to my Lord so I told him the Message I had was from Mr. Dugdale who would request of my Lord that he would own him for his Servant for if he did not he knew not what to do with himself but if he did he might be free from the Gaol and from the Oaths and escape the Troubles that were upon him So my Lord replyed to me 'T is his own act and deed and I have nothing to do with him and let the Justices do what they will with him which were Sir Walter Bagott and Mr. Kinnersley Mr. Foley We desire to know whether he heard any discourse about a Plot at that time or no. Mr. Philips Truly my Lords I heard a talk of a Plot but not at that time Mr. Foley My Lords I desire to know if he took Mr. Dugdale for a person that might be in the Plot if there was any such thing Mr. Philips I cannot tell how to answer that 't is an hard Question I am not so intimately acquainted with persons whose secrets are not reposed in me L. Staff The next Witness I desire may be with the leave of the Gentlemen of the House of Commons Sir Walter Bagott I did desire him to be here Sir Will. Jones There he is we do not oppose it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that Sir Walter Bagott be heard in his place Lords Yes Sir Walter Bagott L. H. Stew. What would you ask Sir Walter my Lord L. Staff My Lords I desire to ask Sir Walter Bagott whether he did not apprehend Dugdale and upon what account it was L. H. Stew. Sir Walter Bagott my Lord desires to know of you whether you did apprehend Dugdale and upon what account Sir Walter Bagott My Lords Mr. Dugdale was taken at an unseasonable time of night and brought to me the next morning by the Watch as the other Witnesses have told your Lordships and I took him away to Stafford where there were several other Justices of the Peace there we offered him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy which he took After the taking of these Oaths we told him that he was a likely man to know something of the Plot and it was a very proper time for him to discover it to us that were Justices he at that time did deny the knowledge of it that is all I can say Lord Stafford I desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he did not go to my Lord Aston to see whether he would own Dugdale as his Servant L. H. Stew. Did you ask my Lord Aston to own him for his Servant Sir Walt. Bag. Yes I did for my Lords house being in the way to Stafford whither I was going I called upon him to know if Mr. Dugdale were his Servant he told me he was no servant of his and he would not receive him Upon which I and another Justice of the Peace that was with me took him to Stafford The occasion of our meeting there was to summon in the Militia upon an Alarm of the Papists being risen in Derbyshire L. Stafford I make this use of it my Lords that my Lord Aston would not receive him and if my Lord Aston had known he had been in the Plot and could have discovered him he would not have disobliged him L. H. Stew. Nay he says more then that which you don't hear he says when they examined him they gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and then told him he would do well to discover his knowledge of the Plot and then he did not own any thing he knew nay he denyed it Mr. Foley Did he deny the knowing of it Sir Walter Bagott Yes he did then Sir Fran. Win. He was not resolved to discover at that time Mr. Serj. Maynard We desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he examined him upon his Oath or no. Sir Walter Bagott No I did not Mr Serj. Mayn But had they then just given him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy Sir Walter Bagott Yes my Lords we gave him those Oaths and those only L. Stafford Then Mr. Kinnersley if you please who stood up Be pleased to ask this worthy Gentleman what he knows about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. First let us know this Gentleman L. Stafford His name is Kinnersley Mr. Kinnersley What Questions would your Lordship ask me L. Stafford What you know about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Mr. Kinnersley we must know your Christian Name Mr. Kinnersley Thomas L. H. Stew. Do you know Mr. Dugdale Mr. Kinnersley My Lords I was not acquainted with Mr. Dugdale till Sir Brian Broughton Sir Walter Bagott and I and others gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy the latter end of November or the beginning of December I did not take notice exactly of the time L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Kinnersley 78 L. H. Stew. Well Sir go on Mr. Kinnersley When he had taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy I asked him if he knew any Treason or Conspiracy against the King telling him it was a seasonable time to declare it He told me he knew of none This is all I know and all the discourse that I remember we had with Mr. Dugdale Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray why did you ask him that Question Mr. Kinnersley The Plot was then newly broken out Mr. Serj. Maynard Why did you ask him so particularly Mr. Treby Why did you think Mr. Dugdale concerned in it Mr. Kinnersley Because we heard he was a Papist and my Lord Aston's Servant L. Staff Then I desire Sir Thomas Whitegrave may be examined Who stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Sir Tho. Whitegrave my Lord L. Staff Will your Lordships please to ask Sir Tho. Whitegrave whether he did not examine Dugdale about the Plot and what he said at that time Sir Tho. Whitegrave My Lords I came to Stafford the latter end of November or the beginning of December I am not certain which but I think it
well as others and therefore desired me to go Sir Fr. Winn. Now it is out Sir W. Jones It was done like a Secretary L. H. Steward Had you ever that curiosity before Lydcott Yes I 'll assure your Lordships I had a great curiosity to hear it L. H. Stew. Were you at any other Tryal Lydcott Yes at the five Jesuits Tryal and Langhorns Then another Witness stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Charles Gifford L. Stafford Ask him whether he did not hear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits or Sir George Wakeman Dugdale say that he did communicate that Letter to some people I name not who the Tuesday after L. H. Stew. Were you at the Tryal of the Five Jesuits Gifford Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you take Notes Gifford Yes my Lords I was summoned there as an Evidence I had occasion of being there both at the Five Jesuits Tryal and VVakemans and Langhorns L. H. Stew. You took Notes you say Gifford Yes I did L. H. Stew. What do you remember that Mr. Dugdale did then swear Gifford I remember at the Five Jesuits Tryals he did swear he received a Letter sent to Evers which he intercepted and it spoke of the death of a Justice of Peace and he returned Answer to Evers again he would be hanged if it did not spoil the business And he said farther he could not hold but went to an Ale-house and there he did impart it but then he did say there was one that could testifie and make out what he said upon which he called Mr. Chetwyn who deposed much to the same purpose And then at Sir George VVakemans Tryal he did positively declare that he spoke of it at an Alehouse to a Minister Parson Philips and my Lord Aston's Kinsman L. H. Steward What is his Name Gifford Mr. Sambidge L. Stafford Well my Lords I have no more to say to him but I conceive by this 't is plain that Dugdale did then say he had communicated it to Mr. Philips and Mr. Sambidge I shall call Mr. Sambidge to g ve you an account Mr. Sambidge stood up L. Stafford Be pleased to ask him whether he did hear Mr. Dugdale say on the Tuesday that Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was murdered the Saturday before L. H. Stew. You hear the Question answer it Mr. Sambidge Who must I speak to L. Stafford He is very deaf and very old my Lords Then the Black Rod was sent to be near him to put the Question to him Black Rod. What would you have hâ—m asked my Lord Lord Stafford Whether Mr. Dugdale did tell him on the Tuesday that Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was murdered the Saturday before Black Rod. Did Mr. Dugdale tell you of the Tuesday that Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was murdered the Saturday before Mr. Sambidge No my Lords he never told me any such thing I take it upon my salvation I never heard it till Friday or Saturday he was found at Bury hill Lord Stafford Ask him if he were with Dugdale at the Alehouse the Tuesday before Mr. Sambidge Dugdale never spoke any such thing to me L. H. Stew. Were not you with him at the Alehouse Mr. Sambidge No. L. H. Stew. Not on Munday Mr. Sambidge No. Lord H. Stew. Nor on Tuesday Mr. Sambidge No. L. H. Stew. Nor Wednesday Mr. Sambidge Not as I know of Sir W. Jones We shall prove he was L. Stafford Pray ask him what Reputation Dugdale hath in the Country Mr. Sambidge Oh the wickedst man that ever lived upon the face of the earth I know great part of it my self and a hundred and a hundred of people will say as much L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Mr. Sambidge I was never a Papist in my life nor ever a Phanatick L. H. Stew. What do you know of Dugdale in particular that is ill Mr. Sambidge Yes my Lords I 'll tell you he was a very abusive man especially to the Clergy and most especially to Mr. Philips with whom I boarded My Lord Aston that is dead came and told me of it Said I You are misinformed for this Dugdale is a Knave a Rogue and all the Countrey ring of him for his wickedness upon which he cites me into Litchfield Court for defaming him and he entertains all the Proctors that I could not get one to put in my Answer but before the day came he discharged the Court and never appeared for we had that against him that he durst not appear L. H. Stew. What particulars do you know Mr. Sambidge He said the Clergy of England was a lewd Clergy and a pack of Rogues L. H. Steward Gentlemen of the House of Commons will you ask him any Question Managers No. L. H. Stew. Hath my Lord no more to say to him L. Staff No my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford go on hath your Lordship done with Dugdale or have you any more Witnesses L. Staff No my Lords I have a great deal more to say to him L. H. Stew. Go on then L. Staff My Lords I conceive by this 't is proved to your Lordships that Dugdale did at that Tryal declare he had acquainted Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips with the Letter about the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey the Tuesday after he was murdered And I conceive I have proved to your Lordships by their denying it that he did not tell them so and so he is forsworn in that I should now have humbly desired your Lordships that you will please to call William Day but upon asking the Question I find he is not yet come to Town and so I shall not trouble your Lordships with him I desire that Thomas Sawyer may be called again Who stood up L. Stafford Pray be pleased to ask him whether he did not hear Dugdale wish he might be damned if he knew any thing of the Plot. L. H. Stew. He said that before L. Stafford Then I beg your Lordships pardon I shall not call him again L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords there are a great many other Witnesses which I could call but it is to no purpose and so I shall call no more as to Dugdale I conceive upon the whole matter his Reputation and Credit are gone for he is forsworn before the Justices of Peace in that he said there was no Plot and wished he might be damned if he knew of any Plot. I conceive 't is also proved that upon the Twentieth of September when he says I did communicate with him about the Kings Death he was only then with me upon his own desire and my servants were by there was nothing discoursed of but about the Foot-Race And likewise as to what he swore in August that I was at such a meeting at Tixal he is forsworn for I was not there and so I hope that Witness is laid aside no Creature will give any Credit to him neither your Lordships nor the House of Commons L. H. Stew.
to any one but I have no more to say to him now There is a third Witness one Turbervill I desire to ask him a Question L. H. Stew. Call Turbervill who stood up Lord Stafford I desire to know what time he came to serve my Lady Molineaux for it is in the beginning of the Information in the House of Commons that he came in the year 73. and how long he staid with her L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford if your Lordship please there was an offer made to you that those Affidavits should be produced if you desired to see them L. Stafford I think I shall have no occasion as yet it may be I may by and by But I desire to ask him this Question first whether he did not say he came in the year 73. into my Lady Mary Molineaux her Service and staid with her about three years L. H. Stew. Did he swear in the year 73. he came L. Stafford 'T is so in his Narrative in Print L. H. Stew. Do you own that Narrative in Print for true Mr. Turbervill No my Lords L. H. Stew. How can you challenge him then with a Narrative he does not own L. Stafford Then what can a man do if he must not go according to what is Printed Mr. Turbervill There is a mistake in the Printing of it there is a mistake of 73. for 72. L. Stafford I now desire that Affidavit may be produced L. H. Steward Pray let him have the benefit that was offered him of the Affidavit Mr. Turbervill Besides I declared I could not be positive to a year I own any thing else in it L. Stafford Then my Lords if I shall have fellows that will not swear to Months nor to years I beg of your Lordships to know whether these be legal Witnesses Managers The Affidavit is in the Custody of Sir William Poulteney a Member of our House Sir Will. Poulteney My Lords I have the Affidavit if you please I shall give you an account what I did upon it and Sir Thomas Stringer another Justice of Peace My Lords after that Mr. Turbervill had given his Evidence to the House of Commons Vivavoce he tendred to them this Information that I have in my hand The House of Commons after it had been read thought it might be convenient to have it sworn to before two Justices of Peace Whereupon Sir Thomas Stringer and my self withdrew into the Speakers Chamber Mr. Turbervill came to us we read over the Information to him again and after we had read it over it was signed and he swore it In this Information when we then took it he declared there that he came to my Lord Powis in the year 1673 and came into England 1676. After we had sworn him we carried this Information into the House again The next morning my Lords he came to me I being one of the Justices that had sworn him and told me that searching among his Papers the last night for a Letter which he had said he had received from my Lord Stafford sent to Diep though he could not find the Letter he looked for yet he found that the precise time that he went to live with my Lord Powis was 1672 and the precise time of his coming into England was 1675. And he desired me to acquaint the House of Commons with it that this Circumstance of time might be altered Whereupon my Lords I did acquaint the House of Commons with it how he was mistaken in that point of a Circumstance of time and that he came of his own accord and desired me to move the House in it I moved the House and they did direct we should withdraw again and take his Information again and that he should amend it he amended it and made the 73 72 and the 76 75 and then afterwards we swore him to it again de novo and this is the matter of Fact concerning the Affidavit L. H. Stew. Sir William Poultney Did Mr. Turbervill correct the mistake himself first or was it found and altered by others Sir William Poultney My Lords he came to me for I did not know any thing of it that he was mistaken but he came to me the next morning assoon as ever I came to the House before indeed I entred into the House and told me of the mistake and told me the reasons how he came to recollect himself and find out the mistake L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill I would ask you the Question how came you to be informed that you had mistaken your self Mr. Turbervill My Lords I 'll tell you I was searching for a Letter which I received from my Lord Stafford and missing that I found my Discharge I had from the French Army wherein I saw my mistake as to the time and that I have to produce L. H. Stew. I ask you again by the Oath you have taken did you correct it of your self or by information from any other Mr. Turbervill By the Oath I have taken I did correct it of my self and no body moved it to me Mr. Serj. Mayn It was but a Circumstance of time Sir Fran. Winn. And corrected by himself the very next morning my Lords L. Stafford He does acknowledge he did forswear himself once and did make himself an honest man the next day when he was a perjured Villain the day before And now he tells your Lordships that he was searching for a Letter that I sent to him but he cannot find it Mr. Turbervill No my Lords I thought I had it but I cannot find it L. Stafford No I 'le swear thou canst not But then he does say that he had a Discharge from the French Army Mr. Turbervill Yes 't is here my Lord. L. H. Stew. Is that the Paper of your Discharge Mr. Turbervill Yes it is 'T is worn out a little and torn but the Seal is preserved I did not know that ever I should have occasion to make use of it but my Lord Challenging me for a Coward and a Deserter of my Colours L. Stafford I say so still for I have heard so L. H. Stew. Your Honour is not in question Mr. Turbervill Mr. Turbervill The Title is a little torn and if your Lordships please I will read it which he did being in French and is rendred in English in these words THis certifieth to all to whom it shall appertain that I have given an absolute Discharge to the Sieur Turbervill a Cavalier of my Company after having served the space of six months with all Honour and Fidelity Therefore I desire those that are to be desired to treat him Civilly and let him pass and re-pass without doing him any Injury or giving him any hindrance But on the contrary to afford him all Aid and Assistance where it shall be necessary promising the like upon all occasions that shall require it In Confirmation of which I have for him signed this present Discharge and thereto put the Seal of my Arms to
with my Lord. L. Stafford Did he hear us discourse or any word we said Mr. Ansell No I did not Sir Will. Jones My Lords if you please before Ansell go away we would ask him a Question to another point and that is For what reason Dugdale was secured whether he went away for Debt or no L. H. Stew. Do you know wherefore Dugdale was secured or why he went from my Lord Astons Mr. Ansell I can't tell why he went away whether for fear of the Plot or no I can't tell Sir VV. Jones What discourse was between you and Dugdale about it Mr. Ansell Where There was a discourse at Stafford when he was there Sir VV. Jones But before he went away Mr. Ansell I came to my Lord Aston's one day and told Mr. Dugdale I heard say he was concerned in the Plot for I told him I was amongst some people and they say you are concerned in the Plot. And this was about a fortnight after the News was hot in our Country L. H. Stew. What said he Mr. Ansell He laughed at it and said God blast him if he knew any thing of it L. Stafford So he denied it then Sir VV. Jones Pray Sir at that time did he say he knew any thing about my Lord Aston and why my Lord Aston did use him ill Then my Lord Stafford objected Mr. Dugdale was too near the VVitness and desired he might go down and it was ordered accordingly Sir Fr. VVin. My Lords we would ask this man what does he know of Dugdale's concealing himself after he had heard of the discourse about the Plot. Mr. Ansell I know not that my Lords he was fearful of coming in company what his discourse was I do not know Sir VV. Jones My Lords now if it please your Lordships we will go to another particular Yor Lordships will please to remember that yesterday there were two Witnesses called by my Lord Stafford that is Sambidge and Philips Sambidge was the old Gentleman that was deaf and a little passionate too because he was once summoned to Litchfield Court Mr. Philips was the Minister of Tixal And both these did testifie That whereas Mr. Dugdale had sworn at a former Tryal that he did give notice before them of the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey upon Monday which as I take it was the 14. of October there was no such notice given in their presence Mr. Dugdale did affirm they were by and that he gave notice before them others This was made use of by my Lord to invalidate the Testimony of Mr. Dugdale that he should go and affirm at a former Tryal that he did give notice of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey within two days after he was killed before any one knew of it and Dugdale must needs know it from the Jesuits and both of these Gentlemen being now in Court do deny that they heard of it at that time My Lords we shall prove to you here that he did give notice of it at that time and that they were both present For Mr. Sambidge it is not so strange he should not observe it he was very deaf and he could hardly hear yesterday and as he was deaf so he was very passionate As for Mr. Philips I cannot say that as to him but perhaps he cannot at that distance of time remember but we will prove by undeniable Witnesses that notice was given that Munday and that these persons were by when it was given Sir Fran. Winn. This Witness we use to another purpose besides this but we will ask him only to this now L. Stafford I desire the Witnesses may stand by themselves L. H. Stew. Let them take care that there be but one Witness at a time and that no body approach them while they are giving their Testimony Sir Will. Jones We did not make the like desire as to my Lords Witnesses L. Stafford In troth you might with all my heart if you would Sir Will. Jones It may be so but we did not fear them so much Swear William Goldsmith which was done Sir Will. Jones I would begin with James Ansell who appeared and stood up again Sir Fr. Winn. If your Lordships please we would ask him what he knows of a discourse about the Justice of Peace's death to tell the time and what it was that was said We only ask general Questions L. H. Stew. What discourse did you hear of the murder of a Justice of Peace and when Mr. Ansell My Lords I heard it at Tixal L. H. Stew. When did you hear it first Mr. Ansell The 14. of October L. H. Steward Who did you hear it from Mr. Ansell From Mr. Dugdale L. H. Stew. The Letter was dated the 12. Where did you hear of it Mr. Ansell It was at one Elds House an Alehouse in Tixal L. H. Steward Where Mr. Ansell At an Alehouse hard by my Lords L. H. Stew. Who was by Mr. Ansell When that was spoken there was I and VVilliam Hanson and Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips L. H. Stew. Did Dugdale speak with them at that time Mr. Ansell Yes he was with them at that time but he spoke with me at the Parlor for he sent for me into the Parlor L. H. Stew. Then at the same time he spake it to you and they were in the House Mr. Ansell Yes he came from them to me into the Parlor and went to them again Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hear him speak to the day of the Month if you please to ask him if he can tell what day of the Week it was Mr. Ansell It was on a Munday L. H. Stew. That is right the Letter was dated on Saturday the 12. of October Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask him whether afterwards he came into the Room where Mr. Philips the Parson was Mr. Ansell Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Was there any discouse after you came in about the Death of â— Justice of Peace Mr. Ansell I cannot tell that L. H. Stew. Will you please to ask him any thing my Lord L. Staff Indeed my Lords he says nothing concerning me therefore I say only this I desire to know if he can tell what time of day it was Mr. Ansell It was the Forenoon Sir W. Jones Then call Will. Hanson again who appeared Sir Fr. Winn. We call him to the same Question Do you declare to my Lords what you know of Mr. Dugdale's acquainting you with the Death of a Justice of Peace and when it was Mr. Hanson I heard Mr. Dugdale say at Old Elds house at Tixal There was a Justice of Peace murdered that lived at Westminster L. H. Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Hanson The day that I went to run the Race the 14. of October Sir Fr. Winn. Can you remember what day of the week it was Mr. Hanson It was Munday L. H. Steward Was it the Forenoon or Afternoon Mr. Hanson The Forenoon L. H. Stew. What Company was in the house when he
told you of it M. Hanson Old Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips the Parson of Tixall L. H. Steward Were they in the House at that time Mr. Hanson Yes L. H. Stew. Were they by when the discourse was Mr. Hanson Mr Sambidge was going to drink a Bottle of Ale as he said at my Lords Bowling Green and for a while he sits down and presently Mr. Philips comes in and sits down and Mr. Dugdale came out of the Parlour into the Room where we were come said I What News said he They say there is a Justice of Peace murdered at Westminster Sir Fr. Winn. Was Philips in the Room Mr. Hanson Yes he hath forgot it but he was there L. H. Steward Did Philips hear it Mr. Hanson He might have heard it if he would L. H. Stew. Had you any discourse with Philips about this since Mr. Hanson No my Lords Sir Fr. VVinn He is positive both as to the day of the month and as to the week and that both of them were present Sir W. Jones My Lords â—e shall prove to you now That the Post which comes out of London on Saturday comes to this place on Munday morning and those which goes out of Tuesday come there on Thursday morning and the Post which goes out of London on Thursday comes to this place on Saturday morning L. Stafford He says the Post comes such and such days I own it and in the morning too Sir Will. Jones Then I go on my Lords to another point which will be a farther Confirmation of the matter For my Lords we will prove to you and that by men of Quality that the noise of the Murder was in that Countrey the Wednesday and Thursday following the Murder Your Lordships please to observe Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was killed the Twelfth of October he was found the Thursday following which was as I take it the 16. or 17. of October We will prove now that the noise and knowledge of the Murder was in the Countrey about Tixal before he was found here near London Now we only bring this as a Confirmation of this matter that it was revealed at the Alehouse and so it went about the Countrey And for this we call Edward Birch Esquire and John Turton Esquire Sir Fr. VVinn Before we examine them I would state the time Sir Edmundbury Godfrey was missing on Saturday which was the 12. of October his Murder was not discovered till Thursday We call these persons to a double purpose the one to fortifie what our Witnesses have said and the other to shew that this man was dispatched by these Mens Confederates because they knew it so soon which could not have been but that they were in the Conspiracy themselves L. Staff I desire only that he may say whether he means me among the rest Sir Fr. Winn. My Lord I will do you no wrong I speak of those at Tixal Then Mr. Birch was sworn L. H. Steward When did you hear of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey Mr. Birch Mr. Birch My Lords I did not hear any thing of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey till the Saturday-Post but I presume that which these Gentlemen call me for is this I did hear before Thursday I think Tuesday was the first day that there was a Justice of Peace of Middlesex killed and it was thought the Papists murdered him and this on Tuesday and Wednesday was all over the Countrey that is Tuesday after his death for I 'll tell your Lordships how I came to take notice of it for hearing such a report in the Countrey I did not so much take notice of it but being at the Kings Bench Bar at the Tryal of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey I found upon the Evidence that the Body was not found till the Thursday after he was killed that made me recollect my self as to what I had heard in the Countrey and as I stood at the Bar I told several Gentlemen that I did perfectly remember before Thursday it was discoursed of in the Countrey by several Gentlemen where I lived Sir Will. Jones Call John Turton Esquire Sir Fr. Winn. Some of my Lords here I perceive desire he should be asked a more particular Question L. H. Steward I desire to ask him this You heard of it you say on Tuesday that a Justice of Peace of Middlesex was killed I desire to know who you heard it from Mr. Birch Truly my Lords I can't tell For I 'll tell your Lordships I have some certain days that I constantly appoint to be at home in when people come about business to me Among these people several came that asked me what news I had from London I told them I had received a Letter or two by the Post and I shewed them those Letters there was little or nothing in them Thereupon they asked me if I did not hear of a Justice of Middlesex that was killed No said I. How come you to hear it says one I come through Cank which is within half a mile of mine own house and as I came through there came a person from Heywood that said 't is all the news about Tixal and Heywood and that part of the Countrey And this was said to me in my own House Sir Fr. Winn. How far is Heywood from Tixal Mr. Birch About a mile Sir Fr. Winn. Now my Lords I would ask Mr. Turton to the fame business Mr. Turton was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Turton pray hear When did you first hear in Staffordshire of the death of a Justice of Peace of Middlesex Mr. Turton My Lords there are two Races in that Countrey at a place near Lichfield and they are about the middle of October the one that year was the 15. the other the 18. the one the Tuesday and the other the Friday I was at both of them and one of the days which I cannot be positive in there was one Mr. Whitehall a Justice of Peace in Staffordshire called me from the company and desired to speak with me by my self Said he Do you hear any news No said I. Do you hear nothing said he of a Justice of Peace that is murdered I then had not heard of Sir Edmundbury Godfreys being missing No says he don't you hear he is murdered Do you know him Yes said I how do you hear it says he 't is a report about us but I did not then believe it but the next Post-day which was Munday I did hear it it was either Tuesday or Friday one of those days Sir Will. Jones If it were either one or 'tother 't is as strange and the Evidence as strong for his Body was not found till Thursday Sir Fr. VVin. And will your Lordships please to observe that by that time the report had got the name of Godfrey too when at that same time we in London did not know what was become of him Mr. Turton He asked me if I knew Sir Edmundbury
whether I should be sworn or no for your Lordship shall not make me be sworn unless my Lords say I should L. H. Stew. I would not offer it if there were any colour of doubt in it Then my Lord was sworn E. of Maclesfeld My Lords I have nothing to say against this man but what he said to me and before a Justice of Peace too for I did take this man when he had run away from my Lord Gerard. He had cheated many of his Servants I catched him on the way running to play his tricks somewhere else and I intercepted him but though I was a Justice of Peace there yet because it was in a manner my own case I would not commit him till I had carried him before another Justice of Peace So the man comes up to me says he My Lord have you a mind to have your Son-in-law bubbled I have been only teaching him how to avoid being cheated I acknowledge my self to be a Cheat and I would teach him to avoid them I am going now into Staffordshire and that was all I intended to his Lordship I am a Rogue I confess it And upon this a Justice of Peace comes in and while they were examining of him we bid some that were by to search him and they found in his pocket false Dice and truly the Justice nor I did not know whether they were true or false Says he You don't know what to do with these but I do This is all I can say but in all the three Counties of Staffordshire Cheshire and Lancashire there are several men that I see here that know his Life better than I do for 't is his common practice and I believe my Lords the Judges must know him for it was his common practice at all Assizes and great Meetings to play these pranks Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will not trouble your Lordships any further as to Robinson if he were here perhaps my Lady would know him but having two such Witnesses I think we need not trouble our selves nor you any more about him L. H. Stew. Have you done with my Lady Gerard Sir Will. Jones Yes and we beg her pardon for this trouble My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember there was one Holt was produced as a Witness by my Lord Stafford and your Lordships when you look on your Notes will remember he testified to this purpose That Dugdale sent an Horse for him to Stafford-Town which Horse brought him to the Star-Inne and there Dugdale did offer him Forty pounds to swear That one Mr. Moor carried away Evers the Jesuit My Lords we will call some Witnesses to this Mr. Holt you will find him to be something akin to Mr. Robinson and as we suppose of nothing a better Reputation than he The Witnesses will give you an account of his pranks Call Sampson Rawlins and Lander Rawlins stood up and was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness Sampson Rawlins L. H. Stew. What do you ask him Sir William Jones We desire to ask him if he knows Samuel Holt the Black-smith L. H. Stew. Do you know Holt Rawlins Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords what Reputation he is of where he lives and what he is Rawlins He is counted to be a very lewd loose fellow L. H. Stew. Why so Sir Will. Jones What hath he done Rawlins He is counted a drunken lewd fellow Sir Will. Jones Is he of an ill Reputation in the Countrey where he lives Rawlins Yes he is so L. H. Stew. For what Rawlins 'T is said in the Town he keeps another mans wife Sir Will. Jones Is there any other fault he hath Rawlins He said there were none but Rogues would take Mr. Dugdale's part whereas I never knew any harm by Mr. Dugdale and I have known him this fourteen or fifteen years I dealt with him I was Taylor to the Family and he ever paid me very honestly and well Sir VV. Jones Have you heard of Mr. Holt any other ill thing besides what you speak of Rawlins He broke open my Lord Aston's Wine-celler and stole several bottles of Wine wherefore my Lord Aston bid Mr. Dugdale send him to the Goal but he curryed favour with Mr. Dugdale and so kept in with him that he afterwards begged for him of my Lord to forgive him And now he comes to Evidence against Mr. Dugdale that was his sure stedfast friend and saved him from the Goal L. Stafford I would ask this Witness a Question Rawlins And because I took Mr. Dugdale's part saying he was an honest man and he was so to me and all others as far as ever I heard he met me and would have murdered me L. H. Steward When was this Rawlins Since last Term when I was up here And likewise Sawyer took a pot and would have dong'd my brains out Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I think this man was summoned as a Witness to attend at my Lord Aston's Tryal What occasion brought you to London at that time Rawlins I was subpoena'd up And when I came home to my Wife and Children they grosly abused me and said I was a Rogue because I came up upon His Majesties Service L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Holt was my Lord Aston's Servant or no. L. H. Stew. Was Holt a Servant to my Lord Aston Rawlins He was a Smith hard by his Gate and he worked to the Family L. H. Stew. Were you subpoena'd up to the Tryal of my Lord Aston Rawlins Yes L. H. Steward And it was for coming to that Tryal he offered to murder you Rawlins Yes I have several Witnesses of it And by the blow that Thomas Sawyer gave me for a good while I could not lay my head on the Pillow Sir Will. Jones Call Thomas Launder but he did not appear being gone away sick Sir Will. Jones Because we would not lose your Lordships time seeing the man we call for is gone away sick we will call a Witness as to another of my Lords Witnesses John Morral Call Thomas Thorne Who was sworn Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords if that other man come by and by we hope your Lordships will give us leave to ask him a Question to the point which we are now gone over But my Lord Stafford did produce one John Morral a Barber that lived at Ridgley who said that money was offered him to swear against Sir James Symons and Mr. Howard and others We call this Witness to give your Lordships an account what this Morral is and how he hath behaved himself in this business Sir W. Jones What do you say about John Morral Do you know him Thorne Yes L. H. Stew. What do you know of him Thorne I know he is a man that use to come often to my Lord Aston's to Tixal to trim him he is a poor fellow that walks up and down the Country and hath little or nothing to live on L. H. Stew. Is he poor and needy
but puts them off and makes them complain says my Lord my Son is now at Standall but I will tell him as soon as he comes home and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money and made so many journeys you shall hear what he will say to it Within a while my Lord Aston that now is came down and I went thither to see what became of it And I went to the Bâ—wling Green where my Lord and his Son were but my old Lord said nothing to me of it nor his Son neither Within a few days my old Lord Aston's Gentleman came down to my House one Mr. Ashley said I I wonder whether my Lord Aston hath acquainted his Son with what I told him says he he hath but it signifies nothing for he will hear nothing against Mr. Dugdale This I speak upon my Oath 't is true L. H. Steward Your Lordship sees what this Gentlemans Opinion was of Dugdale then he would hear nothing against him Will your Lordship conclude L. Stafford My Lords I am mighty unready and know not which way to turn my self upon those new things they have brought for I knew nothing of it nor expected any such thing But will you be pleased that I may call Simon Wright again VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I have nothing to say to him but to desire him to seé this Letter whether it be of his own Writing or no. L. H. Stew. Look upon that Paper shew it him which was done L. H. Stew Is it your hand Wright This is my hand 'T is part of that I was hired to do There is another of a great deal more consequence than that L. H. Stew. Deliver it in and read it Clerk June the 14. 1680. Sir I Can I bless God with a safe Conscience declare upon Oath that Mr. Dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my Poverty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment he did that time proffer if I would swear against You and Mr. Gerard he would protect me as one of the King's Evidence and I should not want Money and in the Hall at Westminster he said if I did discover it that day at Mrs. Price's Tryal he would set me in the Pillory This I have owned to his face and shall not go back from this and more neither for fear nor favour So I rest as you shall find by your Servant Sim. Wright L. H. Steward Is this your hand VVright Yes my Lords this I was advised word for word to write L. H. Stew. Who pen'd this for you Did you pen it your self VVright No my Lords they penn'd it and a great while I would not set my hand to it but Jermin Drayton said I need not fear I was not to swear against the King L. H. Steward Who is that VVright He is Butler to Mr. Heveningham L. Stafford See what you have under his hand I have no more to say to him VVright But by their perswasion at last I did wright it and a great deal more then that Sir William Jones I desire to ask Mr. VVright whether they would have had him swore this L. H. Stew. Were you desired to swear this VVright No my Lords they never put me to swear it for they told me I was not to swear against the King but if I would be so kind to make an Affidavit before a Justice of Peace I might then go where I would into the Country and I should have money to bear my charges Sir VVilliam Jones Who would have had you swear it before a Justice of Peace Wright Jermin Drayton and Mr. Longmore where he is I can't tell but he told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise Mr. Serj. Maynard The same thing that was done by Redding he was convicted for it and stood in the Pillory Sir Will. Jones We desire to know whether he was ever with Sir James Symons himself and what he offered Wright I was once with him at the Kings Bench I dined there after I had written the Paper that was read he gave me 20 s. and said he hoped I would not go off from what I had said and he hoped I was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting and was sorry he had not occasion to use me Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have done with him I only observe that my Lord Stafford was pleased to produce this Paper he was Master of it and had it in his keeping Sir Fran. VVinnington Wright says there is another Paper of more Consequence I wish his Lordship would produce that also L. Stafford I did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands Did you see Mr. Longmore before this Letter was writ VVright Both before and after to the best of my remembrance and at the time when Sir James's Tryal should have been at the Sign of the Crown in Kings-street in Bloomsbury L. H. Steward My Lord will you conclude L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships Pardon I do not know how really to go about it to night I will obey your Commands though I fall down at the Bar. I protest before God I was all night so ill of the Cramp that I had no repose If you will have me go on I will if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self L. H. Steward God forbid when your Lordship is to speak upon so great a Concern and a matter of that importance as this is to you you should be put at the end of the day and in the midst of all your thoughts to sum up your Evidence I do believe if you do desire time till to Morrow my Lords will give it you And if you would have me move my Lords in it I will L. Stafford One word I beseech your Lordships Sir VVilliam Jones We do not oppose it L. Stafford My Lords I desire one thing I am very ignorant in this matter and do not understand it I would desire your Lordships directons to know in what method I must proceed L. H. Stew. Your Lordship is to proceed thus if you please Your Lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the Proofs you have made and you are to enforce them as well as you can and make such Observations upon them as are for your own advantage and this your Lordship must do for the Fact If there remain a doubt in Law which you may have occasion to move Counsel may be demanded and if it be considerable and worthy of debate you may have Counsel heard to speak to it But the Process is closed no more Witnesses are to be heard There remains only Observations upon the Fact or Law to be made L. Stafford Are no more Witnesses to be heard L. H. Steward No I think not 't is agreed on both sides
which he forswears to morrow is not to be believed And the truth of it is as his Brothers prove to your Lordships he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 71 and so he forswears himself in every thing and is in no wise to be believed He swears to your Lordships I writ a Letter to him to acquaint him that I would go by Calice and not by Diep but I have proved I went by Diep and I assure your Lordships I have not been at Calice I think these twelve or fourteen years I conceive these things are very manifest and clear proofs against him that he hath not swore one true word He swears that my Lord Powis my Lady Powis and his friends perswaded him to go to Doway to to be a Frier but not liking it he came over again and was in danger of his life by them but the Evidence is sufficiently strong in proof that he afterwards was at my Lord Powis's and was well received that he lay in the House and was not in the least injured by them And for his other Relations his Brother proves he was not ill used by them They gave him Seven Pound to be gone and trouble them no more He says I said he was a Coward and I 'le tell you why I said so because a Captain that is now out of England told his Sister so who told me But that is not very material My Lords there is one Witness more John Porter that swears to your Lordships this one thing That this Turbervill swore to him at such an Alehouse he knew nothing of the Plot. And then my Lords there is Mr. Yalden and he is a Gentleman of Reputation he said in his company there was no Trade good but that of a Discoverer God damn the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it Truly my Lords whether he got no money by it or is known since he hath been a Discoverer telling what he knew not so many Months ago and therefore I submit it to your Lordships what he is My Lords these people that swear against me there is not one of them a person of any Quality or Condition and whether they have not rather sworn for money than the truth by things that are known and need no proof I shall observe when I come to it to argue that point in Law Whether a man that swears for gain is a credible Witness or no My Lords I have as well as I can summed up that little Evidence that was given against me I cannot better do it in so short a time for indeed I had but a very short time last night and I have not slept I had the Cramp so much in extremity that my next Neighbour heard me roaring out My Lords I submit my self to your Lordships and doubt not but that the matters charged upon me will appear to your Lordships sufficiently answered And I beseech your Lordships well to consider that one thing against Dr. Oats his dissembling with God Almighty and his impudent owning of it This I do insist upon and I protest before God Almighty if I were a Judge I would not hang a Dog upon such Evidence My Lords I have many points in Law to offer to your Lordships and when you please I should do it I 'le name them to you L. H. Steward Name them my Lord if you have any Doubts in Law propound them Lord Lovelace My Lords I would not interrupt my Lord but I think indeed it is no interruption since his Lordship broke off and was going on to another point But I think I see one of the impudentest things that ever was done in a Court of Justice Whilest we are Trying a Person here for a Popish Plot I do see a prosessed Papist standing in the Body of your House and that is Sir Barnard Gascoyne Who thereupon went out of the Court. L. Stafford My Lords I do conceive I have cleared my self to your ' Lordships of what I am accused of My Lords The Course of my whole Life hath been otherwise I defie any Creature in the World to say That I ever used one disobedient or disloyal word of the King or did any such Act. I waited on the King that now is in the Unhappy War that is passed when I was in a low condition enough as to Fortune and my Wife and Family were thereby reduced to great Streights for my Wife and Children lived some five or six years upon some Plate and Jewels that we had whereas if I would have come and been at London and joined with that party I could have saved my Estate and lived quietly as others did But my Conscience told me I ought to wait upon the King and offer him my personal Service when I could do him no other I have shewn how the Witnesses have forsworn themselves I shall now if your Lordships please desire your Opinion in some points of Law And though perhaps I may name to your Lordships many things that are impertinent or not to the purpose I beg your Lordships pardon 't is out of the weakness of my Understanding and I hope you will not think ill neither your Lordships nor the House of Commons if I should through Ignorance move things impertinent The first Point of Law is this First I conceive there is no Example or President for it That Proceedings Criminal ever did continue from Parliament to Parliament and this is continued to three L. H. Steward Speak out my Lord and go on L. Stafford Secondly my Lords I do not question the power of the House of Commons in the least but my Lords I know they Impeach when they find Grounds for it without dispute but I question whether any man by the known Laws of this Kingdom in Capital Cases can be proceeded on but by Indictment first found by the Grand Jury and not by Impeachment by any Person or other body of Men. L. H. Steward Say on my Lord. L. Stafford Thirdly my Lords I conceive there are many defects in the Indictment or the Impeachment Indictment there is none There is no Overt Act alledged in the Indictment or Impeachment I know not well what it is called And my Lords by the Act of Parliament in 1 H. 4. c. 10. nothing from thenceforth is to be Treason but according to the Statute of 25 Edw. 3. which includes an Overt Act. Fourthly my Lords I desire that I may prove that by Law they are not competent Witnesses for they swear for money But my Lords I forgot one thing to say to Your Lordships as to the Evidence that these Gentlemen did endeavour to prove I do not speak whether they did or not a general Plot of the Papists whether they did not I am not concerned in it for I say they have not proved me a Papist which I submit to Your Lordships and though any man may know me so in his private knowledge yet they having not given any
proof of it 't is not to affect me Fifthly There is is one Point of Law more That no man can be condemned for Treason as I conceive by one Witness and there are not two Witnesses to any Point These are the Points of Law I humbly beg your Lordships pardon for the trouble and desire your Opinion in them Sir William Jones My Lords Before we make answer to what my Lord hath said I do humbly desire That for the Objection which he hath made against Mr. Southall proved by a Noble Lord of this House though I must observe it was not of his own knowledge but by Hear-say and that matter of Hear-say contrary to the Act of Oblivion to the end there may no doubt remain of Mr. Southall's Credit that a Noble Lord of this House and a Gentleman of the House of Commons who both know Mr. Southall may be heard to his Reputation Sir Fran. Winn. My Lord Ferrers knew him not himself but my Lord Brook and Mr. Gower will give a better account of him Then the Lord Brook was sworn Lord Brook My Lords What I have to say concerning this Mr. Southall is That he hath been often employed both by my Brother and my Mother and they have so good an Opinion of him that they employ him still and therefore we take him for an honest man and an able man or he would not be so much trusted and employed and I take him to be a very good Churchman for if he was not I would not employ him L. H. Steward An honest man an able and a good Churchman your Lordship says Lord Brook He receives the Sacrament four times a year Sir Will. Jones Then swear Mr. VVilliam Leveson Gower a Member of the House of Commons which was done in his place Mr. L. Gower My Lords I have been near 7 years of Staffordshire but did not know Mr. Southall till this Popish Plot was discovered After that I came acquainted with him being a Justice of the Peace in that County in Court where I found him to be the most zealous Prosecutor of the Papists in that Country no man like him I likewise found several Popish Priests had by his means been apprehended and imprisoned and one of them since convicted who by the way still remains unexecuted in Stafford Goal What Opinion some may have heard or had of him formerly I cannot tell but this I know that he hath more than once come to desire my Assistance that he might prosecute the Papists the most effectual way upon the Statutes made for that purpose and that he did complain to me that he had not met with good usage elsewhere My Lords I take Opinion to be grounded upon Principles and I do observe that those of this Country who do believe this Popish Plot and know Mr. Southall and are principl'd for the Preservation of the King the Protestant Religion and the Government do at this time speak well of him and those who are not so principl'd speak otherwise My Lords I was surpris'd when I heard my Name mention'd upon this occasion I have told your Lordships all the matter of Fact that upon the suddain occurs to me with my own Opinion which I offer with all submission and had I had notice I might possibly have recollected more which I would freely have declared to your Lordships but this is all that I can now say L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I would say one word if you will give me leave I am very ignorant and beg your Lordships pardon for troubling of you I humbly desire to know whether after the Points of Law are argued I may speak something not concerning the Evidence of the Plot but concerning my self Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall not oppose the saying any thing he can for himself but we must conclude and have the last word L. H. Steward My Lord the Gentlemen that are for the House of Commons must conclude My Lords will give you all the favour they can but they must have the last word L. Stafford I do not oppose it L. H. Steward Therefore you will do well to say all you have to say together For the Points of Law my Lords will give no Judgement till the Commons have answered them and they I suppose will first sum up the whole Proofs then you may say what you have to say for they must make an end Gentlemen will you speak first to the Law Sir Will. Jones No my Lords first to the Fact L. H. Steward Go on then Then Sir William Jones One of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began to sum up the same as followeth MAy it please your Lordships We have now done our Evidence as to matter of Fact and that which I have in Charge at this time is to remind your Lordships of our Proofs to answer the Objections that have been made against them and to make some Observations upon the whole My Lords The Members of the House of Commons that were appointed for the Service of the Management of this Tryal those of them I mean who began the first day made a Division of our Evidence into two parts the one that which concerned the Plot in general and the other what related to this Lord in particular My Lords as to the Plot in general we did call six Witnesses I know some of your Lordships have taken Notes and you have their Names they were Smith Dugdale Prance Oats Denis and Jenison My Lords because I will save as much of your time as I can I will not take upon me to repeat what each Witness said as to the Plot in general but when I come to the Evidence which immediately concerns my Lord I must beg your favour that I may be more particular I will say thus much for the Proofs of the Plot in general That there was by those Witnesses so much fully proved that made it most apparent That there was a general Design amongst the Roman Catholicks to introduce their false Religion into this Kingdom That the Jesuits had several Meetings to that end That they endeavoured to do it by several ways by raising of Armes by collecting of Monies and by designing against the Kings Life nay they had so far advanced their Designs and were in so much readiness as they thought it time to appoint Officers not only for their Army but for the Civil Government as if the Work were already accomplished Your Lordships were told by one of the Witnesses of a Lord Chancellor and of a Lord Treasurer Lords now in the Tower yet to be tried and you were told also of Officers for the Military part a General a Lieutenant-General and this Lord at the Bar to be Pay-Master of the Army I shall my Lords desire to take notice to your Lordships That this Design though it was to be finally acted by other Hands yet was it first contrived and afterwards carried on by the Priests and
Lord Aston's Servants that I desire to observe of him first And what does he say He saith That Dugdale went away for Debt The contrary to which was apparently proved for we by our Witnesses made it manifest that Dugdale went away for the matter of the Plot the fear and dread he was in upon that score and the circumstance of his being apprehended by the Watch at Night in his Flight and how he was put to take the Oaths do manifestly prove this But he says another thing which I desire may have no weight with your Lordships that Dugdale should threaten that because my Lord Aston would not own him for his Servant he would be revenged of him Truly if my Lord Aston were here to be tried it would have some weight But to think if it were true that he had so sworn that therefore he would be so wicked as to do mischief to another man that he would be revenged of every man of that Religion or of every man that came to my Lord Aston's House That cannot be imagined So I cannot see what great stress my Lords the Prisoner can lay upon it as to the present Tryal which concerns my Lord Stafford But My Lords I desire to observe that he says further That when Dugdale went away there was a discourse of a Plot this he helps out Dugdale in and that there was a discourse of the killing of a Justice of Peace So that certainly it does shew that Dugdale was apprehensive of the Plot. And as to that which he is pleased to say That Dugdale should deny his knowledge of the Plot and take Drink and with Execrations forswear it it will be no manner of Objection at all For I shall have occasion to shew hereafter that Dugdale at that time was very far from revealing the Plot he had been so long ingaged in he was in apprehension of the danger of his own life and Southall tells you how and when he revealed it and by what inducements he was prevailed upon to do it The next Witness my Lord called was Philips the Minister of Tixal and truly all that I can accuse him of is want of Memory and that is no fault in a man that perhaps is very studious and careful in his Imployment as I hope he is He tells you that whereas Dugdale swore at a former Tryal that he acquainted Mr. Philips with the death of a Justice of Peace of Westminster on the Munday that he did not acquaint him with it that is he does not remember it for no man that swears a Negative can swear more But whether Mr. Philips Evidence be of any consequence to us we submit to your Lordships consideration when we oppose to his want of Memory two Witnesses that swear he was by when this News was told and we are told likewise as a confirmation of that by two Gentlemen of Quality that the report of such a thing was spread abroad all over that Country before it was possible for it to come by the way of ordinary Intelligence whether therefore what Mr. Philips testifies proceeds from any other cause than want of memory in Mr. Philips I must leave to your Lordships consideration But this I would observe to your Lordships that when Mr. Philips was asked by my Lord whether or no Dugdale were a person likely to perjure himself he could not say so Nay being asked of what Reputation he was of he said by some he was very well spoken of by some but indifferently but I do not remember that he said he was ill spoken of by any So I think Mr. Philips has rather advanced than prejudiced Mr. Dugdale's Reputation and Credit My Lords I think I may lightly pass over the three Justices of Peace that were brought to give an Account of Dugdale's behaviour before them and not mention them distinctly because they swear all to the same purpose That Mr. Dugdale was apprehended upon suspition of the Plot that he took the Oaths that he was invited and urged by them to make a discovery of the Plot which he then denied to have any knowledge of For all this will be answered when we come to re-mind Your Lordships of Mr. Southall's Testimony His Lordship was pleased in the next place to offer to prove Dugdale an ill Man by endeavouring to suborn Witnesses And in the first place he called Robinson who testified a very unlikely thing that Mr. Dugdale should call him in the Street and bring him to an House and offer him Money to swear against my Lord Stafford which Money he had in an Handkerchief but did not tell him what particulars he should swear to Nay and this after he had told him he could swear nothing And it does not appear that Dugdale had any manner of knowledge of him or that this Gentleman Robinson had any knowledge of my Lord Stafford So that it was a very rash and presumptuous thing that Dugdale should attempt a man that he knew not and a very imprudent thing that he should suborn a Witness to swear against a man that the Witness to be suborned did not know But I shall say no more of him because I think upon the Account that has been given of him by a Noble Earl of this House and an Honourable Member of the House of Commons if he had said things in themselves probable he deserves not in the least to be believed My Lords next Witness upon the same Head of Subornation was one Morral a poor Barber and what says he He testifies that Mr. Dugdale did offer him 50 l. to swear against Sir James Symons and some others My Lords whether this be probable or no we must leave to your Lordships We have called Witnesses that prove him a man of no Reputation one that runs up and down the Countrey a kind of Vagabond and I think upon the Endeavours that have been proved to have been used as to others it is no very hard matter to bring a man of his Condition to say as much as he hath done The next Witness is Samuel Holt the Blacksmith and he tells such a Story that if it were true would be some Disparagement to Dugdale and what is that He says that Dugdale sent a Man and a Horse for him to bring him to the Star in Stafford and there offer'd him 40 l. to swear that one Moore carried away Evers My Lords how this Story comes in I cannot imagine why Mr. Dugdale should bear any ill will to Moore or what should induce him to intice this man to swear against Moore or what else was in it it doth not appear But no matter what it is for we prove against this man by two Witnesses Rawlins and Lander By the First that he is a man of ill Reputation very zealous to support the Plot and cry down Mr. Dugdale saying that he was a Rogue and all they were Rogues that took part with him And by the other Witness Lander that Holt did
make an Assault upon him and would have killed him for being ready to appear against my Lord Aston at his intended Tryal So that he is a man that has more Zeal than Honesty Zeal in no good matter namely to hinder the Truth from coming out against my Lord Aston and therefore we have little reason to wonder Nay all the reason in the world to believe that he says that which is untrue about Mr. Dugdale My Lords There was another Witness Mr. Lydcott that said he was a Fellow of King's Colledge in Cambridge He has offered no proofs that he was so and truly it is very improbable he should be so For I hope Fellowships in the University especially in one of the chief Colledges as this is are bestowed upon more deserving and less suspitious Persons than he appears to be A Man that owns himself the continual Companion and Secretary of one so famous in the Popish Party as my Lord Castlemain is A Man that pretends he was never out of his Company and a man that owns that two years since he was taking of Notes at a Tryal for this Plot not only for his own curiosity but for the service of his Lord who was concerned in the Accusation That this Man should be a Fellow of King's Colledge seems strange and till it be better proved will hardly be believed nor will he deserve any Credit It is true he doth acknowledge himself a Protestant and to be of the Church of England and educated as he says a Presbyterian but when he was asked when he received the Sacrament last I do not remember that he gave your Lordships any Answer This Witness says that he was at the Tryal of the Five Jesuites and there Dugdale did swear that he gave notice to Mr. Philips and Mr. Sambidge of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's Death And this they would make to be a great Fault in Dugdale because neither Philips nor Sambidge remember it Now whether Dugdale swore true in that or no does not depend upon Dugdale's own Credit alone but you have heard other Witnesses have made it appear that he did swear true So that we need not say any thing more to this Witness nor to Gifford who testifies to the same purpose because that point as to the report of the death of the Justice of Peace is by other Witnesses clearly proved And as for Mr. Sambidge I do not wonder much that he should say he did not hear it because he could hardly hear what was said to him by the Court or any of the Officers set near him on purpose But My Lords I desire your Lordships to take notice that he was a very angry Witness he said he had formerly had a Controversie with Dugdale that Dugdale had cited him into Litchfield Court and had there a Suit against him for Defamation and he said that against Dugdale which unless better proved must needs make Sambidge much suspected He said that Dugdale was the wickedest Man on Earth but what proof he offer'd of that or whether he did instance in any one particular I leave it to your Lordships Memories My Lords There is another Proof relating to Mr. Dugdale not out of the mouth of a Witness but out of a Paper which I desire to give an Answer to It was an Objection the Prisoner at the Bar was pleased to make to Dugdale's Information taken the 24. of December 1678. before the Justices in the Countrey wherein he had said to this purpose Presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went over he was told by George Hobson that there was a Design c. This saith my Lord is most impossible to be true For you say that immediately after the Almoner was gone away Hobson told you this whereas Hobson went away with the Almoner and he came not to live with my Lord Aston till many years afterwards This my Lord is pleased to offer as a falsification of Dugdale's Testimony but my Lords I do desire to observe that this is an Information taken before two Justices of Peace in the Country and if you look upon it you will see it was written by a Country Clerk and not very skilfully done ' Tâ—s rather short Notes of an Examination than a compleat Examination And your Lordships will please likewise to observe that this is not really an Expression that is clear one way or th' other but capable of two Senses that is to say either it may import Hobson told him there was a Design ever since the Almoner Howard went away or it may import Hobson told him presently after the Almoner went away that there was a Design Read but the words with a different Comma and it makes the Sense one way or t'other Now it is plain Dugdale could not intend that Hobson told him so as soon as the Almoner went away because Hobson went away with the Almoner And it was better to his purpose that Hobson should tell him so after his return than before for that shews the Design had been long a carrying on Therefore it being a doubtful Expression that may refer either to the Time he told it to him or to the Matter he told him of and being taken in the latter Sense the Objection faileth I think this Matter can have no weight at all in it to falsifie a positive Testimony My Lords the next Witness we did call and which was objected against by my Lord was Dr. Oats and truly I must observe that his Lordship was not pleased to call any one Witness materially to falsifie Dr. Oats his Testimony and I must likewise observe that Dr. Oats is in the material part of his Evidence supported by other Evidence When Dr. Oats gave Evidence at former Tryals it was the common Discourse of the men of that Religion that Dr. Oats had never been in Spain nor had ever any Credit with the Priests or Jesuits but was a mean contemptible person and that all he said was improbable But now your Lordships have heard that Dr. Oats even by the Testimony of Dennis a Popish Priest that is so to this day was in Spain was according to what he saith brought up in the Colledge of the Jesuits that he was in such esteem there that the Archbishop of Tuam commended him very much in the presence of Dennis and spoke of what expectation there was of him So that Dennis the Priest doth support Dr. Oats in some parts of his Evidence I do not speak of that part of it which concerns this particular Lord but of his Testimony touching the general Plot. There is another thing wherein Dr. Oats is supported by another Witness and that is the Esteem and Intimacy he had with the Jesuits For Mr. Jenison swears that Dr. Oats was a man in esteem among them that he was at Ireland's Chamber and had discourse with Ireland and did appear to be frequently imployed by them And I take these two Witnesses to be a great support to Dr.
in a time when that time is so far elapsed The next matter is That this man was never with my Lord how was that proved for 't is a Negative Why my Lord is pleased to call his own Servants Furnese and the Boy Leigh and what say they they never saw any such man My Lords I desire your Lordships to observe That Mr. Turbervill was introduced by greater Confidents than either of these Servants Mr. Turbervill came in the company of the Priests and you hear the Boy deny that he knew Anthony Turbervill but not that he knew Father Turbervill nor doth my Lord himself deny it nor doth either Master or Man deny my Lords correspondency with the other two Fathers And it might be very easie for Mr. Turbervill to come in the company of the Priests and the Boy not take particular notice of him And 't is as little an Objection what my Lord says that Turbervill himself said he did not know the Boy how many are there that come to the Houses of another and unless they Lodge there or dine there often do not remember the Servants of the House And 't is no greater an Objection to say the Servants did not know him The Priests they knew him they were his Guides they were the likeliest to gain him Admittance not only into my Lord's House but into my Lord's Heart My Lords Your Lordships will be pleased likewise to observe They have also gone about in very little matters to disprove Mr. Turbervill as that whereas he says he was not well used by my Lord Powis and his Lady when he returned from Doway that he was very well used and as one Witness I think Minhead says he was permitted to lie in a Room near my Lord's Chamber My Lords Mr. Turbervill does not pretend to say that my Lord Powis shut him out of doors but what Reproaches or unkind Words might pass between them in private Minhead might not hear So that to say that he lay in my Lord's House is no Answer to this Matter And for the other Witness his Brother that speaks of his Kindreds being kind to him that under favour does not at all disprove him for what was the kindness His Brother and Sister were so kind as to give him Seven Pounds never to see him more a great matter when a younger Brother lies upon a Family that the trouble of his stay there is redeemed at the price of Seven Pound This was a very great kindness a kindness indeed that one would scarce deny to a Stranger if in Poverty I mention the least matters I can remember because I would have nothing stick with your Lordships Then Secretary Lydcott the Fellow of Kings Colledge was called again but indeed my Lords he was so out in his Arithmetick so mistaken in the Year and used the New Stile the Romish so much more than ours that it makes me suspect he is not so great a Protestant as he pretends to be He promised us his Book which he was not then prepared to produce but because we do not hear of him nor of his Book since we say no more of him My Lords John Porter my Lord Powis's Butler comes next and what does he tell your Lordships Why that Mr. Turbervill came not to Powis's House it seems he did not appear there but that he came to a Victualling House hard by and he telling Turbervill he must know something of the Plot he denied that he knew any thing To the same purpose or rather to less and more improbably does Yalden the Gentleman of Grays Inn as he calls himself testifie who says that walking in Grays Inn Walks he had discourse with Turbervill and that he then swore there was no Trade good now but that of a Discoverer and damned himself because he could make no Discovery Truly my Lords this looks in it self to be something prepared for the purpose It is not probable that a Man that should use those horrid Oaths and should have such a mind to be a Discoverer should disable himself ever to be so by swearing he knew nothing But I will not only answer that matter with saying 't is improbable but I shall desire Your Lordships to remember that Mr. Powel a Gentleman of the same House and of good Reputation does swear that Turbervill did acquaint him that he could discover a considerable matter and this was above a year since And Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons does confirm it that he did several times acquaint him that he could make an important Discovery and gave him several reasons why he thought not fit to do at that time because of the Dangers which might arise from some Great Men and therefore till he had a more convenient Opportunity he would not discover But as soon as the Parliament sate very early he did begin to discover So that I shall oppose the Testimony of Mr. Powel and Mr. Arnold to the Testimony of my Lord Powis's Butler and Mr. Yalden the latter of whom speaks so improbably and of a Discourse half a year ago whereas Mr. Powel speaks of what Mr. Turbervill said above a year since and Mr. Arnold of a longer time My Lords It hath been sometimes objected that Mr. Turbervill was a Stranger to my Lord and it was too great a Trust to commit to a Stranger too great a Secret for a Stranger to be acquainted with My Lord's design of the King's Death was too great a matter to lodge with one with whom my Lord had no more Acquaintance than he had with Turbervill Your Lordships will be pleased to observe who they were that did introduce him and who probably gave the best Character of him they were the three Priests and I do not wonder when these Priests had brought my Lord up to such a purpose that they should prevail with his Lordship to give Credit to and deal with a Man that was not very unlike in his Circumstances to attempt such a business For your Lordships will observe he was a man that was very stout for against my Lord's reflection upon him as to Cowardise in deserting the Army Mr. Turbervill hath produced the Certificate of his dismission which gives him a very good Character Besides he was a man indigent and therefore I think there could not be a fitter man chosen for the purpose if he had been so void of all Grace as to undertake it And that Priests having gotten a man so qualified as they thought him were not likely to let slip such an opportunity But My Lords to come to that which is the sum of the business and which my Lord lays more weight on than all the rest and that is the Affidavit which Mr. Turbervill swore before the Justices of the Peace which was in effect what he informed the House of Commons and in that Affidavit besides his alteration of Times which I have spoken to already it is objected that he does say that which
of those Letters shew me the Letter you carried to the Post-house My Lords were those Letters written to Dr. Oats Did they belong to him Or is it possible that my Lords Letter delivered by the Doctor to the Post-house should now be shewn by the Doctor or that the Letters writ to the Superior of the Society of the Jesuits should be produced by one that was a Novice of that Society Does Dr. Oats talk of any one Letter written to himself You will then I suppose see no reason to expect those Letters should be produced by him that were not written to him and the custody whereof belonged to others My Lords I must observe to You that there have been great Endeavours used to Invalidate our Testimony we have had Witnesses called against Witnesses and my Lord hath had that Advantage to do it which perhaps was never given in any Case before and which I hope will never be again The Evidence hath been Printed and Published to the World before it hath been given I say not that it was not necessary in this Case which was a National Cause and the Cause of our Religion but I do say it would not be fit to be done in other Cases for the notifying of the Evidence is the way to have it falsified and corrupted But notwithstanding all these Advantages my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories what considerable contradiction hath been given It is true some Witnesses to that end have been brought before your Lordships but those Witnesses have been rendred incredible by more credible persons and I would desire your Lordships to observe That tho' my Lord hath failed of proving any Subornation in our Witnesses yet we have proved much Subornation endeavoured by his Agents Your Lordships have the Record against Redding before you and what Reference that hath to the Lords in the Tower every one does remember and my Lord is mentioned in that Record And I might likewise mention the business of Cellier and what therein related to the Lords in the Tower and I 'le name but two Witnesses more that have been attempted upon this Nature There was Wright the Barber all the Applications were made to him that could be Money given Letters writ Insinuations that he was not to Swear he was but to Write and that was easily done or if he would be so kind to Swear it he should never come into open Court only go before a Justice of Peace So that your Lordships will observe by what steps and degrees men were endeavoured to be Suborned And then Launder tells you what was offered to him to perjure himself how he was brought to Tixall and what endeavours were used to make him Swear against our Witnesses These things are plain both by Records and particular Proofs upon Oath But my Lords lest we should want proof of all This very Lord I pity him for it hath been so unfortunate as to bring that Paper out of his Pocket which Wright says he had money to frame and was to Swear to It seems my Lord had the Command of it it seems to have been prepared for such a good time as This and the producing of this Paper is as full a Confirmation of this point as can in reason be expected My Lords I have been I fear too long already and yet I fear I have omitted as many particulars as I have mentioned My Lords The Evidence is so strong that I think it admits of no doubt and the Offences proved against my Lord and the rest of his Party are so foul that they need no aggravation The Offences are against the King against His Sacred Life against the Protestant Religion nay against all Protestants for it was for the Extirpation of all Protestants out of these Three Nations I mean not of every one that is now so but of every one that would have continued so every one amongst us if these Designs had been accomplished must either have turned his Religion or turned out of his Countrey or have been burned in it 'T is a Design that appears with so dreadful a Countenance to Your Lordships to this great Assembly and to the whole Nation that it needs not any words I can use to make you apprehend it If the matter be fully proved as I see no reason to doubt but that it is I am sure your Lordships will do that Justice to Your King and Countrey as to give Judgment against these Offenders which will not only be a Security to us against them but a Terror to all others against comitting the like Offences L. Stafford I beg of your Lordships to know whether you will give me leave to speak a word And my Lords I shall not speak any thing but as to a mistake Sir Will. Jones hath made in two or three things Pray my Lords may I put you in mind of them Sir William Jones If there be any mistake pray tell us what it is L. Stafford First My Lords he did omit telling you that Mr. Turbervill's Brother did say he came in 71 to my Lord Powis's Secondly He says I have proved my self a Papist because I have not taken the Test My Lords the Test was since I was in the Tower and whether I will take it or not I do not yet know till it be offered me The Third is this That this Letter was in my Pocket which I produced to you my Lords I knew nothing what was in it it was given into my hand as I stood here at the Bar. Fourthly He said Hobson did go out of England with the Almoner he did not so Another thing he says that I said Oats was an infamous person because he went to a Church that I said was Idolatrous I only said it was so adjudged by Act of Parliament I find my Lords these things he is mistaken in and that my Lords made me very willing to put You in mind of them L. H. Steward Gentlemen I would ask you whether you take any Notice of the Points in Law Sir Fran. Winn. After the Fact is stated my Lords we shall Then Mr. Powle also one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence proceeded further in Summing up of the same Mr. Powle My Lords the Learned Person that spake last hath left very little for me to say in the Summing of this Evidence But because this Noble Lord hath been pleased to alledge several Reasons from whence he would infer at least a great improbability that he should be guilty of the Treasons whereof he stands Accused I shall crave your Lordships patience that I may give Three or Four words in answer to those particulars My Lords In the first place this Noble Lord was pleased to begin and afterwards to continue his Defence with making protestations of his own Innocency We very well know your Lordships sit now in the Seat of Justice and whatsoever credit or regard your Lordships please to give to the Protestations of a Peer in
another Case your Lordships will proceed here only according to your Proofs and your Evidence secundum allegata probata and therefore all we shall say to this is that we hope our Proofs are so clear and evident as will leave no room to your Lordships to believe this Noble Lords Protestations In the next place my Lord is pleased to alledge and withal to lay some weight upon it the voluntary surrendring of himself to Justice and he laid it down as a Rule that as Flight is an argument of Guilt so the Surrendring of a mans self to the Trial of the Law is an argument of Innocency My Lords We admit the Rule generally to be true but in some particular Cases it may be otherwise for a Man that is not very confident of his own Innocency may yet be very confident of the strength of his Party and whether the consideration of the circumstances of Affairs as they then stood and the power and prevalency of the Popish party at that time might not reasonably create such a confidence in this Noble Lord we must leave to your Lordships Judgment My Lords We do conceive that those Persons who contrived Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's Murder had so great Confidence in the favour and protection of some of their Party that they thought themselves able to out-face Justice And we verily believe they intended it as an example to deter all Men from medling so much as with the taking an Examination concerning this Horrid Plot. My Lords I desire to be understood aright in this I lay nothing of the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey to the Charge of this Noble Lord I only use it as an Argument of the presumption of the Popish party at that time My Lords In the next place my Lord Stafford did observe from my Lord Coke that in the Tryals of Treasons we ought very much to guide our Judgments by the Nature and Circumstances of the Fact the Concomitants and subsequents as he termed them with Reference to the Person accused whether they were likely to induce or deter him from such an Attempt and here he was pleased to raise some Arguments from the whole course of his Life and did desire your Lordships to consider those Circumstances therein that might make it improbable or impossible that he should commit a Treason of this Nature He desired also your Lordships to remember that he was descended from an Honourable Family and that his Ancestors were very worthy and very deserving Persons and such as had often ventured their Lives in defence of their Country And here he did likewise mention his own Services to the last King and our present Soveraign in the late Wars It is not my part nor will I derogate any thing from the Merits of this Noble Lord much less from the Honour of his Family but in Answer to this we shall desire your Lordships to consider that this Noble Lord however he is pleased to disown it at present is notoriously known to be a Roman Catholick as they call themselves and such we conceive we have sufficiently proved him to be in the course of our Evidence And as there is nothing in the World so much as a misguided Conscience that can ingage the best of Men into the worst of Actions so we think the Principles of that Religion are such as are more likely to pervert Men from their Duty and Allegiance than any other Religion or Perswasion whatsoever And if the Zeal of this Noble Lord did engage him to endeavour the establishment of that Religion in this Kingdom we may easily believe that his Reason did suggest to him the means by which it must be effected which could be no other but Blood and Confusion My Lords The last thing I shall take notice of is what my Lord Stafford was pleased to say in General as to the Doctrine of Killing and Deposing Princes which his Lordship was pleased to call a private Opinion and not the Doctrine of the Church of Rome But by the way my Lords give me leave to observe that this Noble Lord did upon this occasion fully own and I much commend his Ingenuity in it the reality of the Gun Powder Treason since we know how much that Party have endeavoured to render it Incredible and as length of time hath so fully manifested the particulars of that Execrable Design that it hath brought such as are of that Perswasion to confess the truth of it so we hope this days Tryal will convince both the Age we live in and all Posterity of the Truth and Reality of this present Conspiracy But to go on with that Point from which I did digress I am not I confess much versed in the Canons and Councils of the Church of Rome but my Lords this I know the most famous and celebrated Writers of that Church especially of the Society of the Jesuits have publickly avowed and maintained this Doctrine And we know in all times when there hath been occasion to put it in practice it hath never failed to have been attempted and we likewise know that the Church of Rome and the Pope have always avowed the Acts when they have been done From all which we might very reasonably conclude that it is the Doctrine of that Church so to do But my Lord is pleased to say and admit for Truth That a great many private Writers do hold the contrary I believe it to be so but I do also believe that it is the Policy and Artifice of the Church of Rome to leave this Point of Doctrine in some measure undetermined that so they may make use of it as the occasion serves For if it succeeds then it is owned and justified if it miscarry then the Doctrine is but a private Opinion and the Plot but the Practice of particular Persons that are either desperate or discontented And I am fully of Opinion that This Horrid Conspiracy which is brought this day in Judgment before your Lordships wants nothing but Success to canonize it My Lords As to what concerns the Evidence it hath been so fully stated to You and the Objections that were raised to invalidate it so well answered that I will not trouble your Lordships with any Repitition of what hath been said already All we have further to desire is That your Lordships will please to take our Evidence into your Consideration and to do thereupon what shall be agreeable to Justice Mr. Serj. Maynard My Lords as to Matter of Fact I shall say nothing but only this and I wish it may be spoken with Gratitude to Almighty God that the Discovery of this Plot is rather the Work of God than Man It was first his Act in prevailing upon Oats to make the Discovery and when he stood single almost what came to support his Credit but the Letters of Coleman which were like a Tally to what Oats had said for what Oats informs is in a great part made good by his Letters
a point of Fact Let us therefore resort to the Articles themselves In the 2 d Article it is alledged that he with the rest did most wickedly and traiterously agree conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murther His Sacred Majesty and to deprive Him of his Regal State and Government And then the same Article alledges farther that they did contrive and consult to effect the Murther of the King by Shooting by Poisoning and by Stabbing All these particulars are expressed so that when my Lord said the Articles were therein defective all we can say is that he was misinform'd My Lords there was another Exception taken that this is the Impeachment of another Parliament I must not now repeat how this Point was agreed by both Houses at a Conference But it was then declared upon search of Precedents in all ages that it was the Law of Parliaments which is the Law of the Land that if once an Impeachment by the House of Commons were lodged in the House of Lords tho' that Parliament were dissolved the Impeachment remained in the same state It was the Cause of the Commons of England who only change their Representatives in a new Parliament It has been also objected that this Prosecution ought to have been upon an Indictment As if an Accusation of the House of Commons who are the grand Inquest of the Nation were not as effectual to bring Offenders to Justice as the finding of a particular Jury My Lords I should wonder to hear this Objection made were not my Lord to be easily excused for his knowing the Law no better None who know any thing in the Law would have urg'd such a thing His Counsel I dare say did not suggest this matter to him It is true my Lords when a Peer comes to be Tried by way of Commission or in Parliament when it is not at the prosecution of the Commons there an Indictment is first found in the proper County and brought up before the Peers by Certiorari and upon that they proceed But whether the Party be Peer or Commoner if he be Impeach'd for any Crimes surely no one can deny but that by the constant use of Parliaments the Lords have proceeded to Trial and have given Judgment thereupon without an Indictment found So that this Exception will be of no force at all As for the remaining Objection that there are not two Witnesses to prove any one Overt Act the Kings Person would be in no manner of safety if that Doctrine should be once allowed Conspiring to kill the King is the Treason laid in the Impeachment and the several Overt Acts are so many several Evidences of that Treason Words themselves if they signifie an intention to do an Act and express something to be done in futuro are a sufficient Overt Act a legal Evidence of Treason Then we prove by another Witness not words of encouragement only but offers of money and they are both to the same kind of Treason tho' not to the same Act and at the same time And if there must be 2 Witnesses to every single Act the King of England is not only in a far worse condition than any other Prince but than any one of his own Subjects Treasons may be committed every day with Impunity and unless the Traytors be as great Fools as Villains he shall never be safe from them nor capable of punishing them I must say it and I say it with commiseration to the Condition of this Noble Lord that his Exceptions in Law are as weak as the Answers he has given to our Evidence We hope no doubt in Law remains with you and that we have given your Lordships full satisfaction of the reality of the Plot and a convincing Evidence of the great share which my Lord Stafford had in it and we humbly pray your Lordships Justice Lord High Steward You do not take notice of one thing that my Lord Stafford said this morning That is that the Witnesses are not competent Witnesses because they swore for Money and that is fit to be spoken unto not for the Weight of the Objection so much as for the Satisfaction of the Auditory Sir Francis Winnington My Lords I had taken a Note of that but forgot to mention it If my Lord at the Bar will say they have taken Money to swear that is purely a Matter of Fact which he ought to prove and that which is said and not proved ought to go for nothing let him prove his Case to be so and then we will give him an Answer Lord High Stward My Lord Stafford if your Lordship can prove that they have had Money to swear your Lordship urges that which will be material but if it were only Money to maintain them that sure will amount to no Objection Lord Stafford My Lords I submit it to your Lordships whether Dr. Oats and the rest have not had great Sums of Money besides their Charges 10 l. a week a piece But I desire your Lordships to consider and I appeal to many of your Lordships whether it has not been said that it was a defect in Coleman's and Langhorn's Trials that they did not plead that and if they had pleaded it they must have been acquitted I will name no body but I appeal to your Lordships whether some of you have not said so But I desire your Lordships to admit me to plead by my Counsel if not I submit to you I confess here is a piece of Law that I never heard of before that the House of Commons and your Lordships at a Conference have adjudged it to be the Law of Parliaments that Impeachments shall continue from Parliament to Parliament If you will please to hear my Counsel for me so if not I submit Lord High Steward What would you or can you prove Lord Stafford My Lords Those things that I have given in to your Lordships I desire my Counsel may be heard to Lord High Steward Gentlemen what can you object why he should not have Counsel to argue his Objections in Law Sir William Jones My Lords I do think under favour if a Prisoner in a Capital Cause do desire Counsel he must not only alledge matter of Law to introduce that Desire but that which he doth alledge must be also a matter of some Doubt to the Court For if he do alledge matter which in it self is not Disputable he shall have no Counsel allowed him If your Lordships are not satisfied that it is the Law of your House that Proceedings upon Impeachments do continue from Parliament we cannot answer that it lies in your Lordships breasts it is not what we are to argue because it is a matter that concerns the Law and Rules of Parliaments Is there my Lords any doubt of any other Point that is urged Is there any doubt of this thing whether if one Witness speak to one point of Fact and another to another upon the same sort of Treason but that
apparent by these Instances that such is the frantick Zeal of some Bigotted Papists that they resolve No means to advance the Catholick Cause shall be left unattempted though it be by Fire and Sword My Lord As the Plot in General is most manifest so your Lordships part in it hath been too too plain What you did at Paris and continued to do at Tixal in Staffordshire shews a settled purpose of mind against the King and what you said at London touching Honest Will shews you were acquainted with that Conspiracy against the Kings Life which was carrying on here too And in all this there was a great Degree of Malice for your Lordship at one time called the King Heretick and Traytor to God and at another time you revil'd him for misplacing his Bounty and rewarding none but Traytors and Rebels And thus you see that which the Wise man forewarn'd you of is come upon you Curse not the King no not in thy heart for the Birds of the Air shall reveal and that which hath wings will declare the matter Three things I shall presume to recommend to your Lordships consideration In the first place Your Lordship now sees how it hath pleased God to leave you so far to your self that you are fallen into the snare and into the pit into that very pit which you were digging for others Consider therefore that God Almighty never yet left any man who did not first leave him In the next place Think a little better of it than hitherto you have done what kind of Religion that is in which the Blind Guides have been able to lead you on into so much ruin and destruction as is now like to befall you In the last place I pray your Lordship to consider That true Repentance is never too late A devout penitential sorrow joyn'd with an humble and hearty Confession is of mighty power and efficacy both with God and man There have been some of late who have refus'd to give God the Glory of his Justice by acknowledging the Crimes for which they were condemned nay who have been taught to believe that 't is a mortal Sin to confess that Crime in publick for which they have been absolv'd in private and so have not dar'd to give God that Glory which otherwise they would have done God forbid your Lordship should rest upon Forms God forbid your Lordship should be found among the number of those poor mistaken souls whom the first thing that undeceives is Death it self Perhaps your Lordship may not much esteem the Prayers of those whom you have long been taught to miscal Hereticks But whether you do or no I am to assure your Lordship That all my Lords here even they that have condemned you will never cease to pray for you that the end of your life may be Christian and Pious how Tragical soever the means are that must bring you thither And now my Lord this is the last time that I can call you My Lord for the next words I am to speak will Attaint you The Judgment of the Law is and this Court doth Award That YOU go to the place from whence you came from thence you must be drawn upon a Hurdle to the place of Execution When you come there you must be hang'd by the Neck but not till you are dead for you must be cut down alive your Privy-Members must be cut off and your Bowels ript up before your Face and thrown into the Fire Then your Head must be severed from your Body and your Body divided into four Quarters and these must be at the disposal of the King And God Almighty be merciful to your Soul Prisoner My Lords I humbly beseech you give me leave to speak a few words I do give your Lordships hearty Thanks for all your Favours to me I do here in the presence of God Almighty declare I have no Malice in my Heart to them that have condemned me I know not who they are nor desire to know I forgive them all and beseech your Lordships all to pray for me My Lords I have one humble Request to make to your Lordships and that is my Lords That the little short time I have to live a Prisoner I may not be a close Prisoner as I have been of late but that Mr. Lieutenant may have an Order that my Wife and Children and Friends may come at me I do humbly beg this Favour of your Lordships which I hope you will be pleased to give me Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford I believe I may with my Lords leave tell you one thing further That my Lords as they proceed with Rigour of Justice so they proceed with all the Mercy and Compassion that may be And therefore my Lords will be humble Suitors to the King that He will remit all the Punishment but the taking off your Head Prisoner Weeping My Lords your Justice does not make me cry but your Goodness Then the Lord High Steward broke his Staff and the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Commons returned to their House and the Prisoner with the Ax born before him with the Edg towards him it being carried contrarily during his Trial was sent back to the Tower His Majesty afterwards ordered the Lord High Chancellor to issue out under the Great Seal of England the following Writs for Executing the said late Viscount Stafford the first being to the Lieutenant of the Tower to deliver him on the Twenty ninth of December 1680. between Nine and Eleven a Clock in the Forenoon at the usual place without the Tower-Gate to the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex and the other being for them then and there to receive him into their Custody and to lead him to the usual place upon Tower-Hill and there to cause his Head to be cut off and severed from his Body Which Writs were in Form following CAROLUS Secundus Dei gratia Angliae Scotiae Franciae Hiberniae Rex fidei defensor c. Locumtenenti Turris nostrae London salutem Cum Willus Vicecomes Stafford per Communes Regni nostri Angliae in Parliamento assemblat ' de alta proditione necnon diversis aliis criminibus offensis per ipsum perpetrat ' commissis impetit ' fuit Ac superinde per Dominos Temporales in praesenti Parliamento nostro convent ' triat ' convict ' debita juris forma attinct ' fuit morti adjucat ' existit Cujus quidem Judicii executio adhuc restat facienda Cumque praedictus Vicecomes Stafford in Turri nostra London sub custodia tua detent ' existit Precipimus tibi per presentes firmiter injungendo mandamus quod in super vicesimum nonum diem instantis mensis Decembris inter horas nonam undecimam ante Meridiem ejusdem diei ipsum Vicecomitem Stafford usque locum usualem extra portam Turris predictae ducas ac ipsum Vicecomitibus Civitatis nostrae London Middlesex adtunc
ibidem deliberes Quibus quidem Vicecomitibus nos per aliud breve eis inde direct ' precipimus predictum Vicecomitem Stafford adtunc ibidem recipere ut fiat executio Judicii predicti modo forma prout dictis Vicecomitibus London Middlesex per aliud breve nostrum predictum precepimus Et hoc nullatenus omittas sub periculo incumbente Aliquo Judicio Lege Ordinatione seu Mandato praeantea habit ' fact ' ordinat ' seu dat' in contrarium non obstante Teste meipso apud Westm decimo octavo die Decembris Anno regni nostri tricesimo secundo BARKER CAROLUS Secundus Dei gratia Angliae Scotiae Franciae Hiberniae Rex fidei defensor c. Vic. London Vic. Middlesex salutem Cum Will. Vicecomes Stafford per Communes regni nostri Angliae in Parliamento assemblat ' de alta proditione necnon diversis aliis criminibus offenfis per ipsum perpetrat ' commissis impetit ' fuit Ac superinde per Dominos Temporales in presenti Parliamento nostro convent ' triatus convict ' debita juris forma attinct ' fuit morti adjudicat ' existit Cujus quidem Judicii executio adhuc restat facienda Precipimus vobis per presentes firmiter injungendo mandamus quod in super vicesimum nonum diem hujus instantis Decembris inter horas nonam undecimam ante meridiem ejusdem diei dictum Vicecomitem Stafford extra Portam Turris nostrae London vobis tunc ibidem deliberandum prout per aliud breve Locumtenenti Turris nostrae London directum precepimus in custodiam vestram adtunc ibidem recipiatis ipsum sic in custodia vestra existentem statim usque usualem locum super le Tower-hill ducatis Ac caput ipsius Willi. Vicecomitis Stafford adtunc ibidem amputari ac a corpore suo omnino separari faciatis aliquo Judicio Lege Ordinatione seu Mandato praeantea habit ' fact ' ordinat ' seu dat' in contrarium non obstante Et hoc sub periculo incumbente nullatenus omittatis Teste meipso apud Westm decimo octavo die Decembris Anno regni nostri tricesimo secundo BARKER There were two Writs to the Sheriffs both alike verbatim one delivered in London the other in Middlesex Whereupon the Sheriffs doubting whether that was a sufficient Authority for them to execute the Prisoner by Beheading only the Sentence of Death being otherwise given petitioned the Lords in Parliament to take the Premises into consideration and to make such Order as should be agreeable to Right and Justice as by the following Petition appears TO THE Right Honourable the LORDS TEMPORAL in PARLIAMENT Assembled The Humble Petition of Slingsby Bethel Esq and Henry Cornish Esq Sheriffs of London and Middlesex Sheweth THAT your Petitioners have received a Writ under the Great Seal of England Reciting that Judgment had been given by your Lordships against William Viscount Stafford for High Treason and diverse other Crimes and Offences upon the Impeachment of the Commons in Parliament Assembled and commanding your Petitioners to cause the said Viscount Staffords Head to be Severed from his Body upon the Twenty Ninth Day of this instant December notwithstanding any Judgment Law Ordinance or Command to the contrary That your Petitioners have not as yet Received any Command from your Lordships for Executing the said Judgment May it therefore please your Lordships to take the Premisses into Consideration and to make such Order therein as shall be agreeable to Right and Justice And your Petitioners shall always pray c. Upon which Petition the Lords did Declare as followeth Die Martis 21 Decembris 1680. UPon Application from the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex making some Scruples concerning the Execution of the late Lord Viscount Stafford which were sound by this House to be unnecessary This House do Declare That the Kings Writ ought to be obeyed The said Sheriffs likewise made Application to the House of Commons upon the aforesaid matter who made the following Resolve Die Jovis 23 Decembris 1680. REsolved c. That this House is content that the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex do Execute William late Viscount Stafford by Severing his Head from his Body only Wednesday December 29. 1680. ABout the hour of Ten in the Morning the Sheriffs received the Prisoner according to the Command of the Writs from the Lieutenant of the Tower and brought him upon the Scaffold which was erected on Tower-Hill The Prisoner took a Paper out of his pocket and putting off his Hat read it as his Speech which the very same day before Two of the Clock came out in Print as his Speech and he delivered divers Copies signed by himself to Mr. Sheriff Cornish and other Gentlemen about him He then desired he might have liberty to pray in his own way which being granted he kneeled down by the Block and taking out of his pocket another Paper he read a Latin Prayer which done he gave the Paper to Mr. Sheriff Bethel and then spoke to the People about the Scaffold to this Effect God bless you all Gentlemen God preserve His Majesty He is aâ—good a Prince as ever govern'd you Obey Him as faithfully as I have done and God bless you all Gentlemen Then he stripp'd himself to his Wastcoat and after some â—ew short private Discourses with his Friends he laid down his Neck on the Block and stretched himself The Executioner being demanded by the Sheriffs whether he had any Sign he answered No. Then the Prisoner raised up his Head and said He had no Sign to give but the Executioner might take his opportunity and laid his Neck on the Block again After which in a short time the Executioner did his Office by Severing his Head from his Body and holding up the Head in his Hand carried it about the Scafsold shewing it to the People and saying Here is the Head of a Traitor The Body was put into a Coffin and conveyed to the Tower FINIS
Religion our King and his Protestant Subjects And 't is even impossible that this Design so big could be conducted without the concurrence of such persons as this Noble Lord at the Bar. It could not be carried on by less and lower men And it were a wonder that a person so servently affected and addicted as this Lord is to that Party should not be in at so general a Design of the Party But this indeed is but presumptive Evidence which will induce a moral persuasion We shall now produce such positive Evidence as will make a judicial certainty and will abundantly suffice to convince your Lordships and convict this Lord. The Particulars you will hear out of the mouths of the Witnesses whom we shall call They will testifie what share this Lord had in almost all the Parts and Articles in our Charge contriving and contracting for the Murder of the King levying Arms c. And first we call Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford My Lords I conceive I have good ground to except against this man for a Witness for my own particular I know myself as clear â—nd free as any one here but I will not except against him now but reserve it against the time when I come to make my Defence and therefore admit him to be sworn provided my Lords that he look me full in the face L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford what is your Exception against this man that he may not be a Witness L. Stafford I do admit him to be sworn I say nothing now against him Mr. Treby He is sworn already L. H. Stew. You swore him to give Evidence as to the general Plot you did not swear him as to the particulars against my Lord Stafford Sir John Trevor We are content he shall be sworn again we pray he may be sworn Sir Will. Jones 'T is true my Lords we did divide the Evidence into two parts but his Oath was not divided if your Lordships please you may swear them all over again if it may be any satisfaction but I think it was never seen before Then Mr. Dugdale was sworn L. H. Stew. There is Mr. Dugdale come Sir what say you L. Staff Really he is so changed I do not know him Mr. Dugd My Lord I have Witnesses to prove that you know me L. Staff I beg your Lordships that he may look me in the face and give his Evidence as the Law is Sir John Trevor My Lords if this Noble Lord the prisoner at the Bar will have this Witness to look him continually in the face the Court will not hear half his Evidence We desire he may address himself as the Law is to your Lordships and the Judges L. Staff I desire the Letter of the Law which says my Accuser shall come face to face Mr. Dugd. My Lords I am willing to do as your Lordships shall order L. H. Steward My Lord you do see the Witness that is enough for face to face and you make no legal exception against him why he should not be heard L. Staff Very well my Lord I submit Mr. Dugd. My Lords I have for some years past whilst I was a Servant with my Lord Aston been acquainted and frequently had Discourses with my Lord Stafford before we came to discourse any thing concerning the Plot on foot Lately in 78. my Lord coming down into the Countrey it was either in August or September the latter end of August or the beginning of September L. Staff I beseech your Lordships he may name the times L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship please do not interrupt the Witnesses but wherein he is short do you ask him the Question when it comes to your turn I will bring it to as much certainty as I can Mr. Dugd. There was a meeting at Tixal where there were several present L. H. Steward When Mr. Dugdale It was in September or the latter end of August L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Dugdale 78. My Lords I had then by Mr. Evers means admittance to hear because of my incouragement what the Discourse was at that time It was to debate and determine upon the former Resolutions both beyond Sea and at London before both to take away the life of the King and to introduce their Religion of which I was then one My Lord Stafford was there present and did with the rest consent to it Afterwards my Lord Stafford being at one Mr. Abnets of Stafford one Sunday morning in September came to my Lord Aston's House to Mass I met with my Lord Stafford at some distance from the Gate and my Lord speaking to me when he alighted off from his Horse told me it was a very sad thing they could not say their Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long we should have our Religion established which was much to my joy at that time After that time my Lord Stafford was sometimes at Stafford and sometimes at Tixal I will not bâ— positive as to a day but I think it was about the middle of September My Lord Stafford sent for me to his lodging Chamber as he had several times before sent for me and said he had had great Commendations of me from Mr. Evers that I was Faithful and Trusty Lord Stafford My Lords I desire I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Ay God forbid you should be denied that Give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper I hope your Lordship hath one to assist you that takes Notes for you if you have not you have lost a great deal of time already L. Staff There was one all day yesterday my Lords I desire he may speak his Evidence over again L. H. Stew. Let him begin his Evidence again for my Lord had not Pen Ink nor Paper which he ought to have to help his memory Mr. Dugdale I may miss as to the words but the matter of Fact I shall repeat my Lords I have been frequently acquainted whilst I was a Servant at my Lord Aston's with my Lord Stafford coming to my Lords House in the Counâ—rey and my Lord being several times there I came to that Intimacy by Mr. Evers means that my Lord would frequently discourse with me About the latter end of August or some day in September my Lord Stafford my Lord Aston and several other Gentlemen were in a Room in my Lord Aston's House and by the means of Mr. Evers I was admitted to hear for my incouragement and there I heard them in that Debate at that time fully determine a Resolution upon all the Debates that had been beyond Sea and at London before That it was the best way they could resolve on to take away the life of the King as the speediest means to introduce their own Religion After sometime my Lord being at Stafford at Mr. Abnets L. H. Steward Was my Lord Stafford at that meeting where they debated to kill the King Mr. Dugdale My Lord was there L. H. Steward Was he consenting to
that Resolution Mr. Dugdale Yes I heard every one give their particular full assent At which there was a great Hum L. H. Steward What is the meaning of this For the Honour and Dignity of publick Justice let us not carry it as if we were in a Theatre Mr. Dugdale My Lords Some times in September my Lord Stafford being at Mr. Abnets House in Stafford came once upon a Sunday morning to hear Mass I meeting him at the outward Gate of my Lord Aston's House when he alighted off his Horse after some Discourse he turned to me and told me It was a sad thing we could not say our Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long if things took effect we should have the Romish Religion established And I at that time did seem to be and really was as glad as any person could be After some time I think it was about the 20. or 21. of September my Lord Stafford sent for me into his lodging Room I think it was by his page or him that waited upon him in his Chamber and he told me I must come to my Lord and I immediately went to his Lordship he was just then arising and dressing he sent his men out and told me he had had a good Accompt from Mr. Evers and other Genlemen that I would be faithful and true to their Intentions about the introducing their Religion He told me he was likewise concerned himself and that in a very high degree and for taking away the Life of the King he offered me at that time for my Charges and Encouragement 500 l. and that I should go in October after to London with him my Lord Stafford and that I should be with him sometimes at London and sometimes at an House of my Lord Aston's about twenty five miles from London and that I should be under the care of him in London and Mr. Ireland and in the Countrey of one Mr. Parsons that knew of the Design I did then shew as much resolution to be faithful to my Lord as I could and that I would be true to what my Lord then engaged me I after went to Mr. Evers and communicated to him what my Lord Stafford said and was something in admiration at my Lord 's offering me such a Sum of Money for I doubted of my Lords Ability to make good Payment He told me that I need not sear it for Mr. Harcourt and Mr. Ireland had Money enough in their hands to defâ—ay that and other Charges and I should not want Money for the carrying it on My Lords I remember that at another time there was a meeting wherein there was a Debate about my going up and other businesses my Lord Stafford was present and there were several there besides I did not knâ—w them all then but in the first place they told me I should be made equal with one Captain Adderly that is since dead and that I should have a Reward in London I understood that the Duke of York my Lord Arundel and my Lord Bellasis and others were to give me it and speaking of the Rewards to those that were ingaged they said there would be Land enough from the Protestants to satisfie all that acted in the Design Another time my Lord Stafford discoursing in a Dining Room in my Lord Aston's House did express his great Zeal and the reason why he was such an Enemy against the King he said both he and my Lord Aston had been great Sufferers for the King and for his Father and that my Lord in particular his Grandfather or his Father had spent 30000 l. in the Kings Service and had no Recompence that he had always shewed himself Loyal to the King but whenever there came any place of Preferment to be disposed of it was rather given to such as had been Traytors and Rebels to the old King and likewise to the King himself than to any that had been had Loyal He said this was his chief Motive if there were not Religion in the Case which was of an higher nature or to that purpose L. H. Stew. When was this last Discourse Mr. Dugdale In September 78. as near as I remember for we had several Discourses L. H. Stew. This was not the time you were at my Lords Chamber Mr. Dugdale No it was in my Lord Aston's Dining Room L. H. Stew. No nor when he sent for you to offer you the 500 l. Mr. Dugdale No not at that time it was another time L. H. Stew. What Month and Year Mr. Dugdale September 78. my Lord. Mr. Foley I desire he may give your Lordships an account what assurance he had of Pardon if he did succeed Mr. Dugdale I was told I need not fear and particularly my Lord Stafford told me I should have a free Pardon for it for the King had been Excommunicated and was likewise a Traytor and a Rebel and an Enemy to Jesus Christ L. H. Steward But how could you be Pardoned From whom were you to have that Pardon Mr. Dugdale I was to be Pardoned by the Pope L. H. Stew. That was for your Sins Mr. Dugdale Yes I expected no other if I had gone on Mr. Treby Were you promised nothing else but a Pardon from the Pope Mr. Dugdale Yes I was to be Sainted Sir Will. Jones Will his Lordship please to ask him any Questions we ask him no more Mr. Foley Yes I desire another Question may be asked him that he would give an account of the Letters my Lord Stafford writ to Evers about the Design L. H. Stew. What say you to that Question Mr. Dugdale There came a Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford I knew it to be my Lords hand some might counterfeit his hand but as near as a man can swear to the hand of another in a Paper he did not see written that was my Lords-hand That things went all well beyond Sea and so he did hope they did here for the carrying on of the Design it was to this purpose expresly Mr. Treby We have done my Lords with him Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford will you ask him any Questions L. Staff My Lords I have divers Questions to ask him very many but I humbly crave your Lordships Directions if I ask him any Questions now whether I may not ask him some afterwards L. H. Steward My Lord you may ask Questions of the Witnesses as often as you please and when ever you find it useful to you God forbid there should be any time to foreclose a man from asking a Question that may save his life L. Staff I pray he may be asked how long before this time he knew of the Plot. L. H. Steward How long have you known this Plot Mr. Dugd. In general for the introducing of the Popish Religion and the incouragement to it by the Duke of Yorks being Successor I have known it 15 or 16 years by the means of Mr. Evers L. Staff My Lords I understand him he says
the King by his great Seal or little Seal command that Justice should be delaid or denied yet however the Judges shall not obey it but proceed So I hope there is no pretence of delay on my part and the benefit of that Statute shall not be denied me And that Statute of the Great Charter which cost so many of your Ancestors their Lives to maintain I hope you will never go from Now your Lordships Noble Ancestors amongst other things took great care that Justice should be denied or delayed to none and this I desire you to take into Consideration I am in your Lordships Judgment either to be Acquitted or Condemned I hope your Lordships will and I know you will lay your Hands upon your Hearts consult your Consciences and your Honours and then you will do what is Just and Equitable I doubt not My Lords Mr. Oats said I came by the name of Mr. Howard of Essingham but that I did to my Letters sign Stafford surely my Lords if I was ashamed to own my Person I should have been as much ashamed to have owned my Name He says he saw me take a Commission and whether that be an Overt Act your Lordships are to determine Upon the whole matter I conceive there is nothing proved against me but words nor pretended to but only by Oats And whether you will credit a man that so dissembles with God as I have told you I appeal to your Lordships and beg you to consider of it That these Witnesses have sworn for Money if you send to the Exchequer Office and see what Money they have received you will find by the great Sums that 't is so and then I hope you will not allow them to be heard nor credit any that swear for gain I had a Suit in Westminster-Hall that had like to have gone expresly against me only because one of my Witnesses was to gain 8 l. if the Suit went for me But pray consider how much these men have had And for the point that there are not two Witnesses I beseech your Lordships give me leave to put you in mind That not many Years ago you passed an Act against Frauds and Perjuries wherein you were so careful to preserve mens Estates that you required three Witnesses to prove a Will of Goods or Lands above 100 l. and will you allow but one Witness to take away a mans Life for Words Though your Lordships will never commit Treason yet no man can preserve himself from the Misfortune that happens to me of being falsly accused 'T is true my Lords the Managers have given an Answer to the Business of the Money by saying The King may give as liberally as he pleases but to give so great Sums whereby Men Poor before are now become Rich I think will be an Objection against their Credit My Lords I have said what I do think convenient though I think much more might be said by an abler man to your Lordships for the clearing of himself I hope I have done it nay I am confident I have and this I have done for the Memory of that Great and Blessed King who first made me a Peer that it may not be said He did me the Honour Forty Years ago to call me up to this Dignity and I should fly in the Face of his Son in so horrible a manner as these men would make me I do owe it to the Honour of my Father and Mother who I think I may safely say were both Honourable and Worthy Persons My Father was a learned man and a wise man as I may appeal to some of your Lordships who knew him well I say I owe it to their Memory and to the Honour of the Family from whence I sprang which all the world knows what it is And I should be an infamous man to dishonour them so much as to bear their Name and commit Treason My Lords I owe it to my Wife who hath been a very kind Wife to me as ever Man had She is Heiress at Law to the great Estate of that great and unfortunate Man Stafford Duke of Buckingham who was cut offin the Reign of King Henry the Eighth and all his Estate if it were not for that Attainder would have come to her I may be impertinent in telling your Lordships what it was but I do not over-say it when I reckon it would have been at this day Two hundred thousand pounds a Year for it was Seventeen thousand pounds a Year in those days Penny Rent besides other Emoluments This is an extravagant thing to say but 't is true something thereof does remain to her which I now enjoy I owe it to all my Children especially to my Eldest Son who is a young Man and I may say of far better Parts and Hopes than his Father and whom I hope will serve his Country I owe it to all my Friends and Relations for I would not have it said after-my Death my Wife was the Widow of a Traytor I owe it to all these but above all I owe it to God Almighty then when I come to be judged by Him I may give a good account of what he hath intrusted me with that I may not appear as an infamous Man who knows he hath a Body but not his own and yet should throw it and his Soul away together And if I should have committed this Execrable Treason I should have been Guilty of my own Murder First in the committing a Crime worthy of Death and then in not Confessing to save my Life I hold Murder an extraordinary Crime the worst next to Treason And I know if I should not prevent my Death by confessing all I knew I should have been guilty of Self-Murder the worst of Murders I know your Lordships will lay to Heart what an execrable thing Murder is and the Blood of Innocents and I hope there is none of the House of Commons but after this Evidence will clear me I am sure none of them would have me punished for that I am not Guilty of I do not blame these Gentlemen of the House of Commons for Prosecuting nor the first for Impeaching for they had without all doubt Reasons great enough for it upon what Evidence they had before them before they knew what the Witnesses were I know your Lordships will not in the least point vary from Justice or the Law of the Land and I desire you to lay the whole matter to your Hearts I have not the least suspicion of the Partiality of any Man in the House nay I profess if I had an Enemy and he were not here I would beg of you that he might come I have cleared my self before your Lordshships and I hope I shall not be run down by the wicked Rabble which where it will end God knows It began in the late times against my Lord of Strafford and so continued till it ended in that most Execrable Fact one of them that ever was done