Selected quad for the lemma: lord_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
lord_n	baptism_n	sacrament_n	supper_n	22,321	5	9.1392	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A28884	The pride and avarice of the clergie, viz. parsons, vicars & curats, hindering the reformation discovered in a plain and familiar dialogue between Philalethes and presbyter / by Abraham Boun, gent.	Boun, Abraham.	1650 (1650)	Wing B3836; ESTC R30307	53,217	195

16. 14. 15. 33 34. and Lydia's the Parents at least one of them were believers And touchin● that place in the Acts which onely seemes so plain to you If I should admit the promise there mentioned to be that which you meane which may verie well be questioned it makes nothing to prove that for which it s intended by the men of your opinion who will have all the children in their Parish if their parents come to Church to be baptized The next words clear it from such construction and give you a full answer The promise is made to you and to your children and to such as are a far off but the Apostle further addes even as manie as the Lord our God shall call so that by your construction this must be concluded Converts have right to the promise and so have their children c. You conceive the State hath done well in debarring the wicked and abominable from the Lords Table and if the Parents be separated or excommunicate so I account them who are debarred from that Sacrament how can their children have right to the other as being born of believing Parents Pr. We conceive we have sufficient warrant to baptize all Infants that are brought to us being offered in the Church to be baptized For although their immediate Parents were neither of them Beleivers yet some of their ancestors might be and we are bound in charitie to believe they were Believers for God sheweth mercy to thousands of generations of them that love him Ph. You are without doubt singular in your opinion and upon this ground all the children of Turks are to be baptized if offered in the Congregations because they proceed from Abraham by Hagar and all the Jews because they proceed from Sem yea and all the Gentiles because they proceed from Japhet and all the world because they proceed from Adam I never heard asserted untill of late nor do I think any Orthodox Divine will maintain it I confess I once heard something to that purpose from a Minister whom you know very confidently affirmed But afterwards he having to deal with the Anabaptists forsook that hold and stood onely upon that point to prove that some Infants had right to or might be baptized which he then and at other times proved by Doctor Featleys arguments against the Anabaptists Pr. How ever it may be with the children of Turks and other Infidels yet there is no doubt but the children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession although we see not the signes of grace and election in them have right to Baptism Ph. I account godless impenitent persons living in the bosome of the Church as Infidels and Heathens and the Apostles rule is so and in the language of the Scripture they are dogs and swine to whom holy things are not to be given nor the childrens bread to be cast to them Matth. 7. 6. And their children where neither Parent can be judged a believer which no notorious wicked man or woman can be are pronounced unclean 1 Corinth 7. 14. How ever God may shew mercie the Church ought to judge according to outward appearance and not to admit the wicked Parents to the one Sacrament nor their children to the other without reformation in the Parents or one of them But I pray you why was not the child baptized which was brought from another Parish to your Congregation to be baptized I understand the Minister refused to baptize it Pr. It s true but it was not refused upon your ground the Minister consulted with the heads of the Parish and upon debate of the matter they concluded it was not fit it should be baptized there least it might be chargeable to the Parish Ph. I am sorrie to hear this carnal resolution from such a Minister and so long taught a people It seems some Ministers and people dare transgress the Law of God if it be for advantage As the Pharisees taught upon pretence of their Corban the Box But how doth this agree with that tenet that all children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession which all are in that Parish where that Childe was born ought to be baptized Pr. If it be a fault let him or them answer for it who did it it may be they are able to give satisfaction therein But touching that which you said before that some are to be accounted unclean we cannot censure any as profane or unclean nor keep them from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the Minister cannot do it of himself without the Elders Church-Officers joyn with him Although the Minister know the Communicants to be prodigiously wicked or ignorant and in all probabilitie eat and drink their own judgment or damnation he cannot keep them from the Sacrament Such must be suspended by the Church before the Minister can refuse to admit them and untill then their children ought not to be denied the Sacrament of Baptisme for the reason before alledged Ph. Touching admitting all to the Lords Supper upon that ground because the Minister cannot refuse them not being prohibited by the Church you mean the Presbyterie I answer the Minister is bound to forbear to administer the Sacrament to them whom he knowes eat and drink their own judgment for the reasons aforesaid Although you have not the power of the Church-censures in your hand The reason is clear because it is alwaies a sin to give holy things to dogs and to prophane Gods Ordinances But it s no sin to forbear to administer a Sacrament upon just occasion for a time The Jews were not reproved for omission of Circumcision in the Wilderness Joshua 5. 5. and the Passeover upon just occasion might be deferred for a moneth Numb. 9. 9. 10. And although I think it no fin to communicate with the wicked in the Ordinances where I am not a personal actor nor approver of their sin but a partaker Yet it s without doubt a sin to be an actor in such a case for the actor transgresseth the rule and causeth others to transgress Pr. It seems you stumble at mixt Congregations do you ever think to finde a Church on earth so clean as not to have wicked men in it The tares will grow in the field with the wheat untill the harvest which is the end of the world Ph. I confess your mixt Parochiall Congregations do so far make mee stumble that I much question whether they can be reputed true visible Churches of Christ And I hold that manie of them are not having not the essentials either the material nor formal causes of a Church in Gospel sense but are rather the Synagogues of Satan like Priests like people and the best are leprous and very unclean I know the Tares shall grow with the wheat Matth. 13. 38. but if you mean by Tares profane wicked men they shall grow in the field that is in the world not in the Church the Tares which shall be

maintenance But see how they carryed themselvs afterwards some of them turned notable persecutors others grew idle some erroneous if not hereticall in their judgments And attained with their Lordships Hierarchicall superstitions I could name others of inferior ranke of great note for learning pietie and soundness of judgement even in points controversall who upon conformitie after long standing out accepted great livings and presently became the very Atlas's of popish Ceremonies Vpon all which I conclude that these pretended reformers having heretofore tasted of the Devils broth in their conformitie and subscription and having not yet repented of it will shortly fall to eat the flesh and swallow up any thing which makes not against their honor or profit Pr. You cast very foule aspersions upon our reverend Clergie and have drawn mee into a discourse which I never intended I intimated to you before that it 's the peoples fault that they do not joyne with their Ministers to settle the Church and reforme the abuses in the same It 's an easier matter to finde a fault then to amend it for my part I think the perversness and peevishness of the people is the cause which hindreth Reformation for that they will abide no government but every one will be of his own Religion without controul Ph. I cannot excuse all the people nor think I all faultie who are afraid of having their Religion measured out unto them by the Presbyterie especially by the rigid sort who account all error and heresie which suites not with their conceptions and all men schismaticks and Sectaries whose consciences are not just of their size and yet I am perswaded that reformation goeth not forward is chiefly the fault of the pretended Clergie Pr. How can that be or how doth it appear Pr. Because most of the pretended Ministers must be casheired before there can be any reformation for either the Ministers are dumb blinde guides or els so prophane irreligious or superstitious that if they be reformers their Elders in all probabilities will be of the same stamp to joyne with them And then I leave it to you to judge what reformation here 's like to be when Satan must cast out Satan Pr. This is the condition but of few places many being better furnished both with Ministers and people Ph. The most of the best sort of Ministers stand so much upon their own interests and besides are in so great slaverie to their Patrons that we see they straine their wits to advance their own honor and profit and to please men least either their Livings should suffer any diminution or some one finde a hole in their coat some Symonie lapse or other flaw in their Title whereby to put them out of their Living which before they will loose the most will adventure their souls And upon these grounds it is that every one living within the compasse of their Parish or their perambulation walk must be acknowledged one of their flock and comming to Church he is without doubt a member of the visible Church how ignorant or wicked soever or els how can they demand any Tythes or offerings from them And for the same reason the Ministers labor to preserve their Parishes intire and not to leave out any part thereof least they loose the Tythe and benefit which comes by it And hence is it that they maintain every Parish to be a visible Church although there be neither lawfull Minister nor any Congregation of faithfull people there who have given any testimonie that they are members of Christ or of the houshold of faith Pr. These things may easily be amended and I presume when the Church is setled and the Presbyterian government with the Classes and Synods confirmed these things which are amiss may be altered or changed they are but pettie blemishes and the Ministers will therein satisfie the weak and such as are offended But it s well you have no greater matters to charge them with Ph. I could acquaint you with other abhominable things maintained by your Ministers on purpose to satisfie their lusts of pride and covetousness to which all other things are but drudges besides what I formerly told you off which although you account them pettie matters yet are they repugnant to the essence of a Church of Christ And I see none goeth about to amend them they have Elders and Officers chosen as if they intended reformation but the Ministers and their confederates the Elders do but provoke the Lord grieve his holy Spirit and mock and abuse the people of God Where is anie of your great Presbyters that ever confessed that his Parish was too great and the people too manie although they were twentie thousand and his Living worth 500 l. per annum or that anie of the people were so wicked that hee would spare them out of his Church or desired to have his Parish divided that hee might make way for others more able or worthie then himself Least also hee should part with some of his Tythes and so diminish his revenue and greatness which is against his honour and profit Pr. I have already given you satisfaction to that you now said and tell you again wee must not expect to have a reformation at once it s a matter requires time and autoritie to compell obedience to the Orders of the Church and then you shall see the Presbyterie act vigorously and reformation will undoubtedly go on apace But I pray you what are those other things to which you take exception as things abominable and yet maintained by the Clergie Ph. They defend and maintain their Popish callings from the Prelates their old conformitie and subscription which ingaged them to bee the Prelates and so the Popes Vassals the Patrons right to present to the Churches the Popish and Apocryphal names of Priests Parsons Vicars and Curates the Book of Common Prayer and Homilies and use of popish Ceremonies maintenance by Popish and superstitious offerings double benefices leaving one living when they can get a greater thrusting themselvs upon people without their suffrage consent maintaining Popish Vestries beeing a mear mockerie of Christs Ordinance as if they intended to separate the precious from the vile when they do nothing less All which things with others might easily bee shewed to bee abominable and not to bee suffered in the Churches of Christ Besides these they plead stifly that marrying burying and funerall Orations belong to the Ministerial function and allow of all children to bee baptized although the Children of Turks and Infidels but especially those of their Parish if they bee offered to them how wicked soever their parents are And in like manner they admit all to the Lords Supper how unfit soever if they come but to Church These and others such like have I heard pleaded for with great confidence whilest they have blamed others who take upon them to preach not having such callings as they howsoever gifted and yet for advantage they will bear with anie