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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
lord_n	ancient_a	company_n	great_a	79	3	2.1256	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A70490	Londons liberties, or, A learned argument of law and reason, before the Lord Mayor, Court of Aldermen, and Common-Council, at Guild-Hall between Mr. Maynard, now the Kings eldest serjeant at law, Mr. Hales, late Lord Chief Justice of the Kings Bench, and Mr. Wilde, lately one of the justices of the same court, of council for the Livery-men of London, and Major John Wildman, and Mr. John Price, of council for the Freemen of London : wherein the freedom of the citizens of London in their elections of their mayor, sheriffs, aldermen, and common-council-men, is fully debated, their most ancient charters examined, and on both hands agreed to be but a confirmation of their former rights : with their opinions concerning the forfeiture of Londons charter.	Maynard, John, Sir, 1602-1690.; Wildman, John, Sir, 1621?-1693.; Wilde, William, Sir, 1611?-1679.; Hale, Matthew, Sir, 1609-1676.	1682 (1682)	Wing L2936B; ESTC R14306	40,443	37

King by those as should be summoned of the most sufficient men of the City or of the Common-Council In the seventh Year of King Edward the Fourth by the General Council the Masters and Warden of every Mystery of the City coming in their Liveries and by other good men especially summoned and so the said unsetled Elections continued with many disturbances untill in the Fifteenth year of the said King Edward the Fourth That the same Election was setled by Authority of this Honourable Court of General Council by an Act then made That the Master and Wardens of the Mysteries of this City meeting in their Halls or other fit places and associating with the good men of the Company cloathed in their last Liveries should come together to the Guild-Hall of this City for the Election of the Mayor and Sheriff And that no other but the good men of the Common-Council of the City should be present at the said Elections which course and custome hath been ever since yearly used and continued to the honour peace and happiness of this City and the well setled Government of the same And forasmuch as the Petitioners are given to understand that there is an endeavouring to deprive and take from them that their ancient and lawful Right for the Election of Lord Mayor and Sheriffs which for near two hundred years together they and their Predecessors the Livery-men of the several Companies have lawfully and quietly enjoyed as belonging to them without any question or disturbance Their humble desire and request therefore is That this Honourable Court will be pleased to take their just Cause into your serious Consideration that as they are for the most part the ancient●st and most able Citizens of this City and do undergo as always they have done the greatest part of the Charge and Service within the same so they may not be put from that their Right of Election as they and their Predecessors Livery-men have without alteration or disturbance lovingly and peaceably held and enjoyed ever since the said Act of the 15th of Edward the Fourth being near two hundred years as aforesaid or be discouraged from bearing Charge giving Attendan●e and performing services as they have always done and performed for the honour and good of this City And they shall according to their duties pray c. Mercers Tho. Chamberlain William Barbe Grocers Samu●l Harsnet William Hulme Drapers Francis Peeke Peter Iones Fishmongers Tho. Lusher Gyles-Baggs Goldsmiths Iohn Terry Iohn Perrin Skinners Iohn Garrard Iohn Southwood Merchant-Taylors George Alpers Richard Orme Iohn Green Haberdasher Iohn Redding Salter Robert Cravenor Ironmonger Vintners William Field Wiliiam Iames. Cloth-workers Iohn Milles Edward Chard I. Sadler To the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor Aldermen and Commons in Common-Council Assembled The Humble Petition of divers Freemen Inhabitants of this Honourable City Sheweth THat whereas the Ancient Liberties of the City did admit only Freemen of the same to have his Vote in the choice of the Supreme Magistrates thereof The imposition of the Governours upon a People without their voluntary Election importing the prevalency of meer Tyranny and Slavery And whereas the Livery-men of each Company thereof not chosen either by the City or their respective Companies and therefore not Representee● either of the one or the other have for many years past imposed such Supreme Magistrates upon the same City as they pleased without the suf●'rage of the Freemen thereof either by themselves or Representees chosen for that purpose and for which end your Petitioners humbly conceive this Court hath been Constituted and sworn upon the election of the Representative Members thereof in their several Wards The premises considered the Petitioners humbly pray that by an Act of this honorable Court such a competent number of Representees my be annually chosen by the Freemen of every Word in their respective Words who together with the Common Council-men may be authorized to choose the Supreme Officers of this City Annually for the time to come And your Petitioners shall pray c. THese were referred to a Commitee and Counsel for the Companies there heard And Mr. Price in the behalf of the Freemen from thence it was referred to be fully debated before the Lord Mayor Court of Aldermen and Common Council And on Saturday the 14. of December the Court being sat at Guild Hall the Companies brought for their Counsel Mr. Maynard Mr. Hales and Mr. Wilde Gentlemen most famous in the profession of the Law and the Freemen besides Mr. Iohn Price had prevailed by much intreaty with Major Iohn Wildman as I am informed without hopes of Fees or Rewards to plead their Cause and so the debate begun as followeth Mr. Price My Lord I Only crave leave to speak one word in the behalf of my self for I acknowledge my self to be but weak in the knowledge of the Law and I therefore unable to withstand those Gentlemen of the long robe come only as a Citizen of London to render a reason of my subscribing of that Petition that was presented unto your Honour and this worshipful Court And I hope you will not judge otherwise of my appearing here at this time We began the last time to speak of it to vindicate it to them that opposed us herein And they being the first that spake then we desire that they may likewise begin now and then with your Lordships favour we shall reply to them for my part I thought there had been an issue put to the business and little thought had I to appear any more about it Mr. Recorder They that oppose any thing that is setled to the end to have it altered they usually begin first to shew their grounds or Reasons in all Courts of Justice Mr. Mainard The intent of our coming here is not to introduce any novelty but to maintain the ancient priviledges of this Famous City under which it hath for so many hundreds of years flourished in all Happiness the Earth affords with Peace and Plenty And therefore we conceive we shall not need to produce any arguments to defend our cause but to answer the objections that shall be made by such that do oppose us in the enjoying our Right always presuming that where the Possession goeth there the Right is and therefore if they on the other side have any thing to Object we are ready to give Answers to their Objections Mr. Price We hope we are before such Men as will not take notice so much of the Persons as of the Arguments that are brought on both sides And therefore my Lord I shall begin to proceed where they please The last time this business was under consideration before the worshipful Committee to be heard the business was driven as I conceive to this head by your Opponents to know whether the thing desired by us be in your power to grant to us And whether the things desired by them were in your power to deny them They Pleaded by

Londons Liberties OR A LEARNED ARGUMENT OF Law and Reason Before the Lord Mayor Court of Aldermen and Common-Council at Guild-Hall Between Mr. Maynard now the Kings Eldest Serjeant at Law Mr. Hales late Lord Chief Iustice of the Kings-Bench and Mr. Wilde lately one of the Justices of the same Court Of Council for the Livery-Men of London And Major Iohn Wildman and Mr. Iohn Price Of Council for the Freemen of London Wherein the Freedom of the Citizens of London in their Elections of their Mayor Sheriffs Aldermen and Common-Council-men is fully debated their most Ancient Charters Examined and on both hands agreed to be but a Confirmation of their former Rights With their Opinions concerning the Forfeiture of Londons Charter LONDON Printed for R. Read 1682. THE PREFACE THE unusual methods that have been made use of in the Election of Sheriffs for London and Middlesex for the year ensuing having raised great Disputes among the Citizens concerning the Manner of Chusing their Chief Officers and those Disputes produced great Heats and Animosities I thought it my Duty both as a Protestant and an English-man to use my utmost endeavours for putting an end to such Disputes that so the Cause being remov'd the Effects might cease To this purpose I suppose the publication of the following Sheets will be judged very seasonable by all unbiass'd Men for whereas these Disputes and Heats have engendered many Phamphlets which have rather added fuel to then extinguish'd the differences that have happen'd upon this occasion between the Citizens that adhere to the Lord Mayor and those that adhere to the Sheriffs Methinks this Argument though now almost two and thirty years old seems by Divine Providence to have been calculated for deciding the Differences aforesaid and I question not this good Effect if Men will lay aside Passion and Prejudice and entirely resign themselves to the conduct of Law and Reason upon both which we cannot doubt but the Argument is founded unless we should suspect want of skill in those three great Oracles of the Law One of whom was the late incomparable Lord Chief Iustice of the Court of Kings-Bench another one of the Iustices of the same Court and the third now living his Majesties Eldest Serjeant at Law And certainly if any man should be so absurd as to affirm that any one of these three much more that all three of them jointly should be mistaken in an Argument of such consequence he would discover more Ignorance than Malice August 26. 1650. The Report of the Committee appointed for Examination of the State of the Chamber of London ABout 1630. we find the Chamber to be indebted about the Sum of 050000 00 00 At Michaelmass 1649. the Accompt of the Chamber being then Cast up the Chamber was then in Debt Viz. To Orphans 169654 01 05½ 264066 14 09½ To other Persons for Principal Money 094412 13 04 The means whereby it came into Debt are either Extraordinary or Ordinary Extraordinary Anno   l. s. d.   A Gold Cup given the Prince 001191 04 05 1633. Presents given to the King Queen and Prince 003260 00 00 1634. A Jewel given the Queen 004000 00 00 1634. Entertainment of the King and Queen at Merchant-Ta●lors-Hall 001287 12 08 1634. Christening the Duke of York 000633 00 00 1639. A Cup of Gold given the Queen Mother and other Charges 001000 00 00 1639. Charges of the Charter 002355 00 00 1639. Given the King 010000 00 00 1639. Composition for Package and Scavage 004000 00 00 1649. Composition for London-Derry 012000 00 00 1639. To the Repair of St. Pauls 000600 00 00 1642. Entertainment of the King and Queen 001786 00 00   For Building the Bridge 006400 00 00   For Ship-money and setting out Ships to Sea 017218 00 00   By Gifts and Rewards to Officers for 20 years at 1200 l. per Annum 024000 00 00   By several bad Debts 089730 17 01     071739 14 01 Ordinary Charges for Marshal Causes for twenty years 035278 00 00 For Interest-money paid 20 years at 6000 l. per Annum 120000 00 00 By delivering up Bonds to be Cancell'd by Act of Common-Council in 1640. to several Persons for money lent them out of the Chamber 20 years before about 30000 l. Principal in all with Interest 060000 00 00 For Officers standing Fees for about 20 years at 1400 l. per An. 028000 00 00 For Workmens Wages for 20 years at 1000 l. per Annum 020000 00 00 Stuff for Reparation for about 20 years at 1600 l. per Annum 030400 00 00 The totall sum given lost and expended for about 20 years is 455148 11 02 Present Mr. Sheriff Pack Mr. Ald. Chiverton Col. Mumering Mr. Cole Mr. Barbone Mr. Dallison Mr. Ald. Hayes Mr. Ald. Titchborne Mr. Gibbs Mr. Bolt●n Mr. Adams Mr. Manton August 26. 1650. Those Men being very sensible of this horrid abuse of the City that the Chamber which hath been esteemed like that among the Romans a Sacred Treasury for safety and pitying the Orphans cryes And searching how the City came to be thus Bankrupt it was found that the chief Officers had been very faulty and thereupon it was considered how they were Elected and there arose the Question about the Right of Electing the chief Officers of the City And it came into Debate whether the Livery-Men ought to be the Electors as now they are Thereupon the Companies of London Petitioned the Court that they might continue their Elective Power And divers Freemen of the City Petitioned for the Abolishing that Power of the Liveries or Companies the Petitions are these To the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor of the City of London and to the Right Worshipful the Aldermen his Brethren and the Commons in Common-Council Assembled The Humble Petition of the several Companies and Societies of the City of London Humbly Sheweth THat whereas it appeareth That heretofore for divers years many great differences did arise within this City touching the Election of the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs to the great disturbance of the Peace thereof the said Elections being made divers and several ways and with continual alterations and often disturbances viz. in the seventh year of King Edward the third by the Mayor and Aldermen together with the most sufficient men of every Ward in the Eighth year of the said King as the King's Proclamation then commanded By the Aldermen and the most discreet and ablest Citizens of the City In the twentieth year of that King by the Mayor and all the Aldermen and twelve eight or six of every Ward according as the Ward should be great or small of the richest and wisest men of every Ward In the fiftieth year of the said King by a certain number of the good men of the several Mysteries their Names being certified by the several Companies In the eighth year of King Richard the Second by the Common-Council and the most sufficient men of the City In the ninth year of that

or about Government could give a right to that Power all the foundations of just Government were overturned and by consequence it were not right or just to take away an usurped Power if the Usurpers be grown old Next the Gentleman is pleased before he comes to his material Arguments to insinuate strange huge dreadful monstruous Consequences that would ensue in case any man shall deny his Assertions he is pleaded to say What strange consequences would ensue if we should say for 190 years all the Lord Mayors or Sheriffs of the City of London have been unlawfully chosen but suppose that which he suggests that the Mayors have been chosen unlawfully so long 't is time then to provide for a lawful choice and the continuance of the un●awful will breed more of M. Maynard's monstruous consequences and if it be unlawful 't is not forbearing to say so that will amend the Consequences But now the Gentleman comes to his Position and saith That this Government that is now is lawful The Gentleman might have pleased to have spared that I did not yet assert that the Government that is now is unlawful yet he may take some answers to his Arguments or rather Authorities for the legality of it The 1st Ground he builds upon for the lawfulness of this Government is the Opinion of the Judges which makes a huge Cry But by the way the question is not now concerning the Government but only concerning the choosers or electers of the Governours the Government may be the same still though the manner and way of electing these Governours may be altered from what it is at present Yet to that Opinion of the Judges which makes the great noise in the Court Oh saith he 't is the Opinion of all the learn'd Iudges and then he paraphrases upon the goodness honesty learning and fame of the Judges that were named in the Book produced It may be those Gentlemen of the Long Robe were Black-Swans yet the Argument from Authority is none of the strongest 'T is not a very good consequence that the thing is just because good men thought so Yet under favour the Opinion of the Judges I take to be not the most certain or unalterable amongst men nor the most unbyassed by their own Interest I believe if a man should go to the 12 Judges he shall scarce find 4 or 3 of the 12 of the same opinion in a dubious case yet if there were more that agreed the late opinion of the Judges in the case of Ship-Mony may inform us how free the Judges opinions are from the Byass of private Interest in such 〈…〉 how fit 't is for us to depend upon them but however the opinion of the ●●ges produced by Mr. Maynard I crave leave to affirm to be against him in this Case at least not for him I desire it may be read The Case of Corporations touching the Election of Governours in the fourth of the Lord Cooks Reports fol. 77 78. In the same Term at Serjeants-Inn in Fleet street it was demanded of the chief Justices Popham and Anderson and Periam chief Baron of the other Justices That where divers Cities Burroughs Towns are incorporate by Charters whether by the name of the Mayor Commonalty or the Mayor Burgesses of the Bailiffs Burgesses c. or the Aldermen Burgesses or the Provost Sheriffs or Burgesses or the like in the said Charters it be prescribed that the Mayor Bailiffs Aldermen Provosts shall be chosen by the Commonalty or Burgesses of the ancient usual Elections of Mayor Baiiffs Provosts by a certain chosen number of the chief of the Commonalty or of the Burgesses commonly called the Common Council or by other name not in general by all the Commonalty or Burgesses or not by so many of them as will come to the Election shall be good in Law forasmuch as by these words of the Charters the Election shall be indefinitely by the Commonalty or all the Burgesses And which Question being of great importance and consequence was r●ferred by the Lords of the Council to the Justices to know the Law in that case for that divers attempts were now of late in divers Corporations contrary to the ancient usage to make popular Elections it was resolv'd by the Justices upon great deliberation and upon conference had amongst themselves that such ancient usual Elections were good and well warranted by their Charter and by the Law also for in every of their Charters they have power given them to make Laws Ordinances Constitutions for the better Government Order of their Cities or Burroughs by force of which for avoiding popular confusion they by their common assent constitute or ordain That the Mayor Bailisfs or other principal Officers shall be chosen by one certain select number of the principal of the Commonalty or of the Burgesses as is aforesaid prescribe also how such selected numbers shall chuse such Ordinances Constitutions was resolved to be good allowable agreeable with the Law their Charters for avo●ding of popular disorder confusion although that no such Constitution or Ordinance can be sh●wed yet it shall be presumed intended in respect of such special manner of ancient continual Election which special Election is not begun without common consent that at the first la●e Ordinance or Constitution was made such reverend respect of Law doth give to ancient continual allowance usage as it had been within time of Memory And the custom of most faithful Antiquity is to be esteemed the things which are done contrary to the custom usage of the Ancients either please or seem right the frequency of the Act premiseth much and according to that Resolution the ancient and continual Usages have been in the Cities of London Norwich and other ancient Cities Corporations And God defend that they shall be now innovated or altered for that many and great Inconveniences will arise upon the same all which the Law hath well prevented as appears by that Resolution First My Lord observe that the Question here resolved is not our Question the Question here resolved was this Whether an Election of a Mayor not made by all the Commonalty in a Corporation or at least as many as would come was good in Law But our present question is only this Whether the Commonalty of this City ought not to have their Representers to chuse the Lord Mayor So that we do grant that an Election not made by all the Commonalty may be good Now my Lord observe the Judges Resolution of the Question they resolve that an Election made by the Mayor and Aldermen and a certain chosen number of the choice of the Commonalty is good in Law We concur with the Judges keeping close to their words A certain chosen number of the Commonalty to those other words of theirs viz. Such ancient usual Elections that is to

their Council that they maintained their Priviledges by Right of Custom so that it was Argued that the Law of Election was not in this Courts Power to give So that your Lordship and this Honourable Court are by them made not so much as Judges much less Parties Mr. Recorder Mr. Price takes it for granted That all this Court understands the State of this Case which they do not and therefore I desire the Question may be rightly stated that is to be disputed upon otherwise you will spend much time and run into confusion and it will be impossible for them that hear you to understand the business so that I desire the Question may be stated and the matter of Fact agreed upon Mr. Price My Lord I had thought to begin where we left the last time and the Question then stated was reduced to this short point Whether the Right of Election of the chief Officers of this City did belong to the Livery-men of the several Companies with the Lord Mayor and Court of Aldermen by vertue of a Law of this Court or by vertue of custome Mr. Recorder I beseech you let it be clear what you go upon Mr. Wildman My Lord I am here desired by many Free-men of this City to appear in their behalf to inforce a Petition of theirs delivered to this Court and they also produced to me a Petition preferred to some others in opposition to theirs And as I conceive that noble Gentleman Mr. Recorder desires that which is very requisite that is That the Question may be rightly stated and so the Arguments produced on either side Now I conceive the Question is this Whether the Wardens Assistants and Livery-men of the several Companies of this City of London ought to have the Election of the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs of London or whether the Freemen in general by themselves or by their Deputies have the Right of that Election City-Counsell The Question cannot be collected from the Petition which prays That the People of the several Wards where many Forreiners inhabit may chuse the Lord Mayor Mr. Wildman My Lord I believe those Gentlemen endeavour so to state the Question that they might make the Court believe that we would split our selves upon that Rock of Popular Confusion but we shall endeavour to avoid that Clamor We conceive the Question to be this Whether the Masters Wardens Assistants and Livery-men of the several Companies of Right ought to Elect the Lord Mayor and the Sheriffs of this City Or the Freemen of the City by themselves or their Deputies It will be concluded on both sides That the Lord Mayor and Court of Aldermen with the Common-Counsel men may have a Right in the Election City-Counsell We say the Lord Mayor and the Aldermen and the Common-Counsel and the Masters Assistants and Liveries of the several Companies have the Right of the Election and Possession of that Right Mr. Price The Question is Whether the Election as it is shall continue or not continue We deny not that the Right of Election doth belong to the Wardens and Livery-men of each Company with my Lord Mayor and Court of Aldermen But the Question is Whether it belongs to them upon such grounds as are unalterable by this Court if they are unalterable by this Court let them shew by what Law if they are alterable we are then in a fair way to have one Petition granted Mr. Mainard There is nothing pretended by the Petition that is endeavoured to be made the Question They do complain in their Petition That this Government which you have so long enjoyed in this City is an Imposition of Tyranny and Slavery and that imposed when I came first hither I thought I was to speak to matter of Right but they decline that and speak to point of Crime Mr. Price It is true these words of Tyranny and Slavery are in the Petition but they are with a Parenthesis I desire the Petition may be read The Petition was then read Mr. Price We say that the imposition of such and such things is slavery but it is not in relation to this Court but in Answer to their Petition who call it in their Petition their Ancient Right if it be their Ancient Right let them shew by what Law And I conceive the Parenthesis is only in Relation to that Expression Mr. Wildman I humbly conceive my Lord and Gentlemen the thing in Question must be collected from the Prayer of both Petitions the Sum of the Prayer of one Petition is this that the Representatives of all the Wards may as of Right they ought Elect the chief Officers of this City Mr. Recorder I think the business before you is to come to the Question in hand and I humbly beg That for expressions on both sides they may be wholly waved and if you will not speak the Question that you would agree of it in writing Mr. Mainard I suppose it is conceived by all what we both aim at I shall be a suitor that those Gentlemen may go on to matter of Argument and I shall speak what I am able Mr. Wildman May it please your Lordship to let me pursue the Recorder's motion We humbly conceive that the Prayer of our Petition must direct us to state the Question we pray no more but this That the chief Officers of the City may be chosen by the several Wards in their Representatives Annually We do admit that the Lord Mayor the Court of Aldermen and Common-Council may have Right of Election because they represent their Wards but we pray that our Right in Electing as we are Free-men may be restored to us Mr. Hales My Lord There 's no Officers of any Corporation in England but are by Usage or Charter and if these Gentlemen be about Officers their Question is about the Officers of a Corporation these Gentlemen would introduce some new thing that hath not been heretofore used and we desire to know upon what imagined pretence they would have it and that they shew us the persons to inforce the thing they desire otherwise why do they Petition Mr. Wildman My Lord These Gentlemen would avoid the true stating the Question and engage us in Logomachi●'s contentions about words we would know wherein they oppose the desire of our Petition to have the Ancient Right of the Citizens of Lond●n restored to them in the Choice of the chief Officers of the City Mr. Mainard We deny That you desire in your Petition is the Right of the City of London It is so far from being their Right that when they put that in Execution they lose their Charter and all their Franchises Mr. Price The Question was reduced to this Whether it was in the power of this Court to alter what was then in custome so that we shall not be lookt upon as adversaries to our Opponents denying this Court their Right of election but if we make it good that the custome was altered by you why then we

say such ancient Elections by the chosen number of the Commonalty are good in Law Now we deny that the present Election of the the Ld. Mayor by the Livery-Men is the most ancient usual way of Electing and that the Livery-Men are a chosen number of the Commonalty I mean chosen according to any right of choice that right being in the Commonalty But my Lord 't is very observable in this Opinion of the Judges upon what Ground they judged such Elections valid in Law the ground is this For 't is to be imagined or supposed say they that such ancient and continued Elections did not begin without common assent Hence 't is evident that the Judges imagined that all the Citizens had the right of choice in them and that they had agreed that a chosen number of themselves should choose in their stead So that the Judges in their Opinion took the chosen number of the chief of the Commonalty that did elect the chief Officers to be the Represent●rs of the whole Commonalty Now if your Lordship please to remember we produced an Act of the Common Hall of London made long before the Liveries made any claim to be the choosers and at an Assembly when the Guild Hall was filled with the Commonalty wherein they did assent that there should be a certain number of every Ward proportionably that should be the Electers of the Mayor and Sheriffs so that the way we propose of several men of every Ward representing the Wards to elect is founded upon a common Assent They produce no one Act of a common Hall that should make it appear that it was ever assented unto by the Commonalty that the Livery-Men of the Mysteries should be the choosers of the Mayor Now my Lord I humbly offer it to this Honourable Court whether this opinion of the Judges about Elections produced by Mr Maynard as the pillar whereon they build the lawfulness of the Liveries Elections do not rather speak them to be unlawful in my humble opinion this that those learned Gentlemen flourished like Goliah's Sword against us ●●ays themselves After Mr. Maynard had produced the Authority of the Judges as he supposed for his Cl●ents case he argues from consequences saith he If this present way of Electing by the Liveries were not lawful mark the consequences your Charter saith he is forfeited this I confess is a big bellied word but how will this assertion agree with what M. Maynard M. Hales and M. Wilde all affirmed that the Charters of the City did not originally give the City those Liberties that are mentioned in the Charter but that the Charters were only D●clarative of Cities Rights shewing what their Rights were before the Charters Now if the Charters give not the City their Rights certainly you cannot forfeit your Charters unless the learned Gentlemen shall please to say You shall forfeit the Declaration of your Rights for the Charters are no more by their own confession and if your forfeiture be no more you may enjoy your Liberties still notwithstanding such a forfeiture as they pretend But suppose a man should say what I did not yet say that the present way of Electing the Mayor is unlawful is it any more than this that the Citizens have suffered their Right to be taken from them for many Years others to enjoy it unlawfully and how will this consequence be deduced from thence that the City hath forfeited their Rights I confess I understand not by the Law that a Body politick or Corporation as such is under harder Laws in our Nation than the Members of the Common-Wealth severally now no man in England can forfeit his Rights without a legal conviction of some crime for which the Law censures him to forfeit his Rights I know no reason why the City should have such hard measure that in case the free men have suffered the Companies to usurp their right that therefore all the Cities rights should be forfeited Mr. Maynards next argument for the Liveries Elections was this That 't is founded upon a constant usage time out of mind so that saith he the City now prescribes unto this way of Electing and yet the Gentleman was pleased afterwards to confess that to make a title by prescription there must be a constant usage since Rich. the firsts time and they only produce an Act of a Common Councel for the Liveries Electing about 174 years since and will suppose that that act of Common Councel was in confirmation of what was the custome before whereas they produce no one footstep of a Record before that time to prove that it was the usage to chuse by Livery-men but on the contrary it hath appeared that the Election hath been 400 years since by a select number out of the several Wards which cannot be any way supposed to be meant of Livery-men they not coming as men from several Wards but as men from several Companies The next thing the Gentleman said was this that he hoped we would grant that we did both depart from the Charter it self for saith he if we found the way of Electing upon the Charter the Charter running to the Citizens indefinitely it must be understood of all the Citizens and Barons and saith he you grant it is impossible they should altogether make the Election so we both depart from it Under his Favour I must be bold to deny it We depart not from the Charter for we say that the Charter giving a right of choyce to all the Citizens they may proceed in their Elections either by themselves personally or their Deputies and they finding it inconvenient to meet Personally may depute others to make their Elections and an Election so made is truly said to be made by the Citizens So that in case that way of Electing were admitted which the Pertitioners propose it were directly agreeable to the Charter for then indeed the Citizens should chuse because they chuse every one of them by their Deputies as all the People of England make Laws in Parliament because every mans Deputy is or ought to be there in Parliament Next Mr. Maynard answers an Objection If saith he it be objected that in the way of Election that is by the Livery men all are not represented saith he it is true if you take it in some sence but saith he if you take it in the sence of the Law therein they are represented and it is the City makes these Elections Saith he the Law saith so as saith he in case a mans hand moves it is the man that moves or his eye sees a Colour it is the man that sees I hope the Gentleman will please to confess a vast difference between a Body natural and a Body politique Because he may truly say if a mans hand moves all the man moves therefore will he say that what a few or one member of the City doth is the Cities action If so if one in the City commit Treason all the City are

Traytors I believe Gentlemen you would be loath to admit of such a Law But to confirm this assertion the Gentleman produced something out of that which he called Articuli super Chartas where he saith the King granted to the People to chuse Sheriffs and yet the People did not chuse them all in general it was the Freeholders chose them Mr. Maynard If he pleaseth could have told when the People in general were restrained from electing Parliament-men and other the Sheriffs also and upon what pretence it was put upon Freeholders onely and how it served the Kings ends to procure that Statute of Restriction if I forget not the time it was in the 8 of Henry 6. Chap. 7. But however Mr. Maynard should have proved this to be just before he can prove the other to be just by this Now the Gentleman is pleased to come to examine the presidents we produced and saith he will turn our own swords into our own bowels and endeavors to do it thus First saith he you prove that the Wards did send several Persons to these Elections 400 years since but you prove not that the Wards chose these Persons you read indeed Records that said these Persons were summoned to the Election but who summoned them certainly the Mayor summoned them and he summoned whom he would I verily believe this would be a very bitter Pill for the Citizens to digest to ●ay the Lord Mayor should summon when he pleased and whom he pleased out of every Ward to come to the Election the Government would be turned topsie turvy if that were admitted then he that should be once Lord Mayor might be for ever Lord Mayor if he could make but a friend or two in every Ward and if this be imagined to have been the custom of the City I wonder who summoned those that chose the first Mayor But the Gentleman is pleased to make his Argument thus saith he it is not named in the Record you produce that these men were Elected by the Wards though summoned from the Wards therefore saith he they were not elected It is a new kind of logick that must make this argument good 'T is not recited in the Record that they were chosen therefore they were not chosen I might as well say that in your summon to a Common Coun●el your being chosen by the Wards is not recited therefore you Gentlemen of this Court were not chosen I confess I am not very well verst in the Acts that are in this Court but I think there is no act of the Court recorded wherein it is said There were present the Common Councel that were chosen by such Wards shall I therefore conclude that they were not chosen by the Wards I must first learn a new Logick before I shall ●are so to conclude The second thing he objected against the presidents was this Those Twelve men of the Wards that are said to elect the Mayor saith he must needs be understood to be Common Councel men Truly besides the Answer of Mr. Price that it was not probable because the number of Common Councel would then have been far greater than now it is when the City was far less to let that pass I only answer thus that if they please to look in 22 of Henry the sixth it is in Lib. K. fol. 214. It is said in the writ that came down from the King to prevent disturbances at that Election of the Mayor that none should be there but they that have an interest to be there those that were in Common-Councel And the more discreet and able men of the Wards so that besides the Common-Councel there were others that were wise and able discreet men in the Wards that were to come to the Elections which probably were those that were chosen by the Wards If your Honour please the Record may be read The former answer serves to Mr. Mayards Observation of the Election of the Parliament Men for the City wherein it is said only six of a ward were called to be there but not chosen I propose it to him whether it is probable that the Lord Mayor had power to pick six men out of a Ward to chuse the Parliament men for the City or whether this be a good Argument because they are said to be summoned by the Lord Mayor and not said to be elected therefore they were not elected I hope the Gentlemen of the Long-Robe have better arguments The last thing that Mr. Manard avers is the inconveniencies in point of Law that would ensue upon that which we pray for which he calls an Innovation But I humbly crave leave to aver unless I could see his confutation that it is an antient Right of the Citizens of this City Those inconveniencies in point of Law he saith are these the hazard of forfeiting of Charters I conceive that to be answered before That if a City should depart from a just way if their Charter were but the confirmation of their right before there is no forfeiting of that Charter for the Charter gives them not that Right The next Argument he draws from every mans living in a Court-●eet and that at twelve years old he ought to meet there and he saith from thence if there should be Representers of the Wards chosen to make the choyce it might be that those that are no Citizens might meer to chuse a Mayor and Citizens that live without should not chuse I think under his favour the common practice will answer to that when the Wards meet for the choyce of Aldermen or Common-Councel Men none but Citizens have their Votes in it there is no danger that those that are Aliens should either be chosen or choosers His next Argument against this Petition is this saith Mr. Maynard It will tend to Popularity if this should be admitted that the Wards should choose and I leave it saith he to the Court to judg what the Consequent of that would be all mens Educations saith he are not such as make them fit for Government or fit to choose Governors Truly if it please the honourable Court but to consider who they are that are now the Electors this Arrow of the Gentlemans returns upon himself I could say more of it if I should not be thought to reflect because I have a reverend respect to all kind of Trades but if I should speak of all the several Companies the Bricklayers Bowyers Fletchers Turners Coopers Tallow-Chandlers c. If I should speak of the Education of most of the Livery-Men of forty Companies of the City and compute their number and tell you upon what terms most are admitted to be of the Liveries that is for a small sum of Money I conceive the Court would quickly judge which way of Election tends most to Popularity as he calls it and who proposeth most men that are unfit for Government to choose the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs Will any man suppose that the Educations of all the Handicraft men

of the Liveries render them so able and discreet that they are fit for Government I submit it to the Court. As for the great Word Mr. Maynard was pleased to add about the ill consequents of this change that would be to other Corporations saying That this is an Earthquake comes under them I shall conceive his Oratory in this to be of the Earthquakes nature a swelling vapor unless he will be pleased to shew me how the Liberty of the City or any one Citizen is undermined by what is proposed only I must observe to the Court that where Arguments are wanting their room is commonly supplied with words and pretences of huge strange consequences that will ensue if their desires be crossed But the arguments from a consequence I believe they well know their strength is not of the first degree but however to suppose an ill consequence may ensue upon a City or company of persons exercising their right and thence to conclude they must not enjoy it is a way of arguing that I understand not I confess Mr. Hales is pleased to deal very ingenuously in laying down those principles wherein we agreed which was That the Liberties of the City were by prescription and that the Charters were but Declarations of what our Liberties were and that the Common-Councel-Men ought to have a Vote in their Elections But I said not they ought but that they might have their Votes if they were chosen to that purpose But he was pleased to say that the Lord Mayor Aldermen and Common-Counsel were a kind of a Representative of the City and therefore he would thence aver that there is no inconvenience to the City seeing they have such a Representative I shall answer Mr. Hales thus If a man should say the Parliament represent the Common-Wealth and seeing we have a Representative what matter if that 200. or 300. men more went into the Parliament and voted with them the people of England surely would not think themselves well dealt withal nor think those Acts so passed to be valid Mr. Hales is pleased also to pursue Mr. Maynards mode of imagining strange kind of consequences that may ensue upon this and saith he How if the People will say when you brought it to the Representatives we will not be bound to Representatives but we will come and chuse personally what then saith he would be the consequence of this Truly if Mr. Hales will suppose that the people will not be bound by any Government not by Acts of Parliament he may fill his fancy with bad consequences and why may it not be supposed as well that all the people in England should say we will go and make Laws our selves in Parliament as well as that the people should not be willing to be bound in the Wards to chuse the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs by their Representatives I shall let pass also what Mr. Hales was pleased to urge concerning that principle of a just subjection of Peoples to Governours to be founded upon an Assent because he was pleased to confess very ingenuously that I waved those Arguments that might reduce Government to an uncertainty or to the first principles of general Common-Right But saith Mr. Hales if that principle be allowed amongst a free People that subjection to their Governours ought to be by meer assent sath he we must consider there is a Personal and a Virtual assent and it shall be conceived to be a Virtual consent where there hath been an usage time out of mind for the People to be subject to any form of Government Of which nature he endeavoured to prove the way of electing the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs by the Livery-Men of the several Misteries whereas if Mr. Hales please to remember they do all aver the usage of this way of Electing but to have been for 174. years that they can prove As for any suppositions that it was before I think there is enough answered to that there being no ancient Records that mention the choise to have been by the Livery-Men who come not as sent from Wards And though Mr. Hales is pleased to ballance the Records produced on one hand and on the other and saith thus that they produce for one hundred seventy four years to shew that this hath been the way of electing which now is but saith he those Records produced to prove another way of Electing is but a short time If he please to remember there is no foot-step or mention made of any Livery-Man or of any of the Mysteries having a Power to elect until that 15. of Edw. 4. and we find from Edward the first about 200 yeers before that there were twelve men in the Wards that were Electors which we may well think to be the Representors of those Wards and chosen by them for that purpose and no foot-steps of the discontinuance of it from that time produced but we may well say that all the Records that mention the Communaltyes choise are to be interpreted by the former Records untill that Record comes wherein mention is made of Livery-men there being no mention made of them formerly under that or any other name as such That which he was pleased to alledge that it was the Common-Counsel-men that were those twelve men is answered before in Mr. Maynards and therefore I pass it over But Mr. Hales seems to think it hard measure that we should exclude the Livery because there is no mention made of them I shall only answer that it is as hard for them to say because the Common-Counsel men are not mentioned to joyn with the 12 of the Wards therefore they were excluded But saith Mr. Hales it is the usage that shall explain what is meant by the Communalty and what is meant by those more able and discreet men in the City that are chosen we desire but to stand to the explanation of the Record we produced an ancient Record that had these words viz. The whole Communalty that is to say the more able and discreet men of the Ward we would fain have him produce a Record where it is said The whole Communalty that is to say the Livery-Men at least any time before that of Edward the fourth As to the Arguments from the consequences if this Government were not right then saith Mr. Hales all the Purchases you have made since that time you altered the way of Elections is null I must humbly crave leave not to submit to his Judgment in that till he give me better reasons for I suppose it is grounded upon that of forfeiting a Charter which was answered before for though the Body corporate have not had their Officers rightly Elected yet the Body is not thereby dissolved and therefore their purchase may be good and without fear of forfeiture The Arguments Mr. Wild was pleased to use were but to inforce what his Brethren had said that by the 12 Electors of the Wards must be meant the Common-Counsel because saith he no mention