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A69535 The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.; Commission for the Review and Alteration of the Book of Common Prayer. 1661 (1661) Wing B1278A; Wing E3841; ESTC R7198 132,164 165

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number of the members of Christ the Children of God and the Heirs rather than the Inheritors of the Kingdom of heaven Of the Rehearsal of the ten Commandements VVe desire that the Commandements may be inserted according to the new Translation of the Bible 10. Answ My duty towards God is to believe in him c. In this Answer there seems particular respect to be had to the several Commandements of the first Table as in the following Answer to those of the second and therefore we desire it may be advised upon whether to the last words of this Answer may not be added particularly On the Lords day otherwise there being nothing in all this answer that refers to the fourth Commandement Qu. 14. How many Sacraments hath Christ ordained Answ Two only as generally necessary to salvation That these words may be omitted and answer thus given Two only Baptism and the Lords Supper Qu. 19. What is required of persons to be baptized Answ Repentance whereby they forsake sin and Faith whereby they stedfastly believe the promise of God Qu. 20. Why then are Infants baptized when by reason of their tender age they cannot perform them Answ Yes they doe perform them by their Sureties who promise and vow them both in their names We desire that the entring of Infants into Gods Covenant may be more warily expressed and that the words may not seem to found their Baptism upon a real actual faith and repentance of their own And we desire that a promise may not be taken for the performance of such faith and repentance especially that it be not asserted that they perform these by the promise of their Sureties it being to the seed of Believers that the covenant of God is made and not that we can find to all that have such believing Sureties who are neither Parents nor Pro-parents of their children In the generall Wee observe that the Doctrine of the Sacraments was added upon the conference at Hampton Court is much more fully and particularly delivered then the other parts of the Catechism in short Answers fitted to the memories of children and thereupon wee offer it to be confidered 1. Whether there should not be a more distinct and full explieation of the Creed the Commandements and the Lords Prayer 2. Whether it were not convtnient to adde what seemes to be wanting somewhat particularly concerning the nature of Faith of Repentance of the two Covenants Justification Sanctification Adoption and Regeneration Of Confirmation The last Rubrick before the Catechism AND that no man should think that any detriment shall come to Children by deferring of their Confirmation he shall know for truth that it is certain by Gods Word that Children by being baptized have all things necessary for their Salvation and be undoubtedly saved Although wee charitably suppose the meaning of these words was only to exclude the necessity of any other Sacraments to baptized Infants yet these words are dangerous as to the misleading of the vulgar and therefore we desire they may be expunged After the Catechism SO soon as the Children can say in their mother tongue the Articles of the Faith the Lords Prayer and the ten Commandements and can answer to such other questions of the short Catechsm c Then shall they be brought to the Bishop and the Bishop shall confirm them We conceive that it is not a sufficient qualification for confirmation that Children be able memoriter to repeat the Articles of the faith commonly called the Apostles Creed the Lords Prayer and the ten Commandements and to answer to some questions of the short Catechism for it s often found that Children are able to doe all this at four or five years old 2. It crosses what is said in the third reason of the first Rubrick before confirmation concerning the usage of the Church in times past ordaining that Confirmation should be administred to them that are of perfect age that they being instructed in Christian Religion should openly professe their own faith and promise to be obedient to the will of God Thirdly VVe desire that none may be confirmed but according to his Majesties Declaration Viz. That Confirmatioin be rightly and solemnly performed by the information and with the consent of the Minister of the place Rubrick After the Catechism THen shall they be brought to the Bishop by one that shall he his God-father or God-mother This seems to bring in a second sort of God-fathers and God-mothers beside those made use of at Baptism and we see no need either of the one or other The Prayer before Imposition of hands Who hast vouchsafed to regenerate these thy servants by water and the holy Ghost and hast given them the forgivenesse of all their sins This supposeth all the Children who are brought to be confirmed have the Spirit of Christ and the forgivenesse of all their fins whereas a great number of Children of that age having committed many sins since their Baptism doe shew no evidence of serious repentance or of any speciall saving grace And therefore this confirmation if administred to such would be a perillous and gross abuse Rub. Before the Imposition of hands THe Bishop shall lay his hand upon each child severally This seems to put a higher value upon Confirmation than upon Baptism or the Lords Supper for according to the Rules and Orders of the Common-Prayer-Book every Deacon may Baptize and every Minister may Consecrate and administer the Lords Supper but the Bishop only may confirm The Prayer after Imposition of hands VVE make our humble supplication to thee for these children upon whom after the Example of thy holy Apostles we have laid our hands to certifie them by this signe of thy favour and gracious goodness towards them We desire that the practice of the Apostles may not be alledged as a ground of the Imposition of hands for the confirmation of children both because the Apostles did never use it in that ease as also because the Articles of the Church of England declare it to be a corrupt imitation of the Apostles practice Art 25. VVe desire that Imposition of hands may not be made as here it is a signe to certifie children of Gods grace and favour towards them because this serms to speak it a Sacrament and is contrary to that fore mentioned 25. Art which sayes that Confirmation hath no visible signe appointed by God The Rub. after Confirmation NOne shall be admitted to the holy Communion until such time as he can say the Catechism and be confirmed VVe desire that Confirmation may not be made so necessary to the holy Communion as that none should be admitted to it unless they be confirmed Of the Form of solemnization of Matrimony THe man shall give the woman a Ring c. shall surely perform and keep the vow and covenant betwixt them made whereof the Ring given and received is a token and pledge
towards Bp. Hooper when they were in prison and how the Arrians fury made the Orthodox gladly to go to the Churches of the Novatians and meet with them and joyn with them in prayer and had almost been united with them in the bond of Concord if the Novatians in a stiffe maintaining of their old customes had not utterly refused it But yet in other matters they embraced each other with so singular a benevolence and love that they would willingly have died for each other as Socrat tels us Hist l. 2. c. 30. And may we not all here see our duty When Atticus was urged to deny to the Novations the Liberty of then meetings within the City he refused it because they had suffered for the faith in the Arrians persecution changed nothing in the faith though they separated from the Church and was so far from violence against dissenters as that he gave large relief to them that differed from him in Religion Socrates Hist l. 7 c. 25. It was the much praised saying of Theodosius to him that asked him Why he put none to death that wronged him I would I could rather make them that are dead alive Socrates l. 7. c. 22. Much more should Christian Bps. be enemies to cruelty who know that Charity is more essentiall to Christianity then this or that form of Liturgy or Ceremonies If you think it unsufferable that we should have differences about such things remember that there will be no perfect Unity till there is perfect Charity and sanctity and that destroying one another and consequently destroying Charity is an unhappy way to Unity And that Unity is to be held in things necessary Liberty in things unnecessary and Charity in both remember that it was in a far greater difference where Constantine perswadeth the Christians to mutuall forbearance by the example of the Philosophers that suffered differences in abundance of their opinions Euseb de vita Constant l. 2. c. 67. And that Valens the Arrian was made more moderate and abated his persecution of the Orthodox by the Oration of Themistius who bid him not wonder at the dissentions of Christians for they were small if compared with the multitude cloud of opinions that are among the heathen Philosophers as being more then 300. And that God will by his diversity of opinions manifest his glory and make men the more reverence him who is so hardly known Socrat. l. 4. c. 27. Those that dissent from you in these colerable Cases cannot change their own Opinions But you can if you will forbear hurting of your brethren Do that which you can do rather then urge them by unsutable means to that which they cannot do These are not matters sufficient to justify contention uncharitable usage of your brethren When many of the Macedonian faction petitioned the good Emperour Jovianus to depose those that affirmed the son to be unlike the Father and to put their party in their places he gave them no answer but this I hate contention and I love and honor them that are addicted to concord Socrat. l. 4. c. 21. Then saith Euseb Hist l 8. c. 1. did the Lord obscure the daughter of Sion and cast down the glory of Israel c. When those that seemed our Pastors rejecting the rule of godliness were inflamed among themselves with mutual contentions drove on only those contentions threatnings emulations mutual hatred and enmity the like Tyrants prosecuted their Ambitions We thought it no impertinent digression here to take this occasion again to crave your exercise of the ancient Charity and our enjoyment of the ancient Liberty instead of forcing the anciently free Liturgy and Ceremonies and that by improportionable penalties And if yet we cannot prevaile with you we shall still beg for peace of the God of peace where we have better hopes to be heard and shall hold on in seeking it how ill soever our endeavours may be interpreted or succeed And as the good man wept Socrat. l. 4. c. 18. when he saw a woman pompously adorned because he was not so carefull to please God as she was to allure men so we shall confess we ought to weep that we cannot be more Charitable laborious in building up the Church in holiness and peace then others are by uncharitable courses to afflict it And it shal be our hope that whether by their labours or their sufferings God will serve and honor himself by those many faithful servants of his whom he hath called into his work and whose cause we plead and that however they are used they shal not be unuseful to the ends of their vocation As Theodoret observes Hist l. 4. c. 30. that in a Calamitous time the Moderator of the Universe raised up such guides as were sufficient in so great a fluctuation and opposed the valour of the Leaders to the greatness of the enemies incursion gave the best remedies in the hardest times of Pestilence so that the banished Pastors did from the uttermost parts of the earth corroborate their own and refute the adversaries by their writings And for ourselves as we were truly desirous to do our parts to preserve your reputation with the flocks in order to the success of your Government for their good and never envied you even that worldly honour or revenew which yet some have thought unsutable to the simplicity and employment of Christs Ministers so if you will neither suffer us quietly to serve God or conscionably to serve you we shal be the less sollicitous for that part of our task from which you have power to discharge us And as Basil said to Valens the Emperour that would have him pray for the life of his Son If thou wilt receive the true faith restore the Churches to concord thy son shal live which when he refused he said The will of God then be done with thy Son so we say to you If you will put on Charity and promote your brethrens and the Churches peace God will honour you and good men will honour you and your calling will have advantage by it But if you will do contrary the Will of the Lord be done with your honours But know that them that honour him he will honour and those that despise him shall be lightly esteemed and that by the course of uncharitable violence which we deprecate you will most deeply wound the Cause of your Preheminence even more than its adversaries could have done And if it be the will of God that suffering at home where we have served him must be our Lot we doubt not but he will furnish us with strength and patience and we shall remember such ensamples as Ruffin recordeth Hist l. 2. c. 3. When a military Bishop sent his Souldiers to assault 300 scattered Christians there appeared a strange kind of warfare when the assaulted offered their necks saying only Amice ad quid venistr Friend why camest thou thither Or if we must be removed from