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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A69753	The generall demands, of the reverend doctors of divinitie, and ministers of the Gospell in Aberdene, concerning the late covenant, in Scotland together, with the answeres, replyes, and duplyes that followed thereupon, in the year, 1638 : reprinted in one book, by order of Parliament.	Forbes, John, 1593-1648.; Henderson, Alexander, 1583?-1646.	1663 (1663)	Wing C4226; Wing C4225; ESTC R6298	125,063	170

things were left indifferent by the negative Confession yet may we not forbear the practise of them because since that Confession Lawes have passed on them which remaining in vigour require our Obedience as we said before 7. The other horne of your Dilemma is that if these points were abjured for ever before Pearth Assembly then wee who practise them are perjured To which we answere That it followeth not for we never did swear to that negative Confession And therefore though these points were abjured therein yet are we free from all guiltinesse of Perjury And in the mean time ye have not resolved how he who is perswaded of the lawfulnesse of those points can swear the negative Confession if by it the Swearer be tyed to the abjuring of those points which was the other part of our Dilemma Thus if ye will consider rightly ye may perceive that our Dilemma standeth unmoved with the hornes of it still towards you Ye farther insinuate that our Reasons are not solide and grave but velitations of such a sort as ye looked not for Let the judicious Reader pronounce his sentence of this only we wish that ye had chosen rather to satisfie then to contemn our reasons That which ye here againe adde concerning the change of Cōmissioners is answered in our fourth Duply 8. To give light to your former discourse ye subjoine a distinction of discipline into three members First ye say it is taken for the rule of Government of the Church and censure of manners by office bearers appointed by CHRIST and thus ye say it is unchangeable Secondly for constitutions of counsells and Acts of Parliament about matters of Religion And thus ye say it is alterable or constant according to the nature of particular objects Thirdly for the ordering of circumstances to be observed in all actions divyne and humane and so ye say it is variable First by these distinctions the matter seemeth rather to be obscured then cleared For ye doe not expresse in which of these senses the discipline mentioned in the negative Confession is to be taken which was the point required of you 9. Secondly ye seem by this distinction to intangle your selves yet more For first if ye take the name of discipline in any one or any two of these senses what say ye to these following words of your dispute against the English Popish ceremmies Parte 4. cap. 8. Sect. 8. The Bishop doeth but needlesly question what is meaned by the discipline whereof the Oath speaketh For howsoever in Ecclesiasticall use it signifieth often times that Policie which standeth in the censuring of manners yet in the Oath it must be taken in the largest sense namely for the whole Policy of the Church For 1. The whole Policy of this Church did at that time goe under the name of discipline and those two Books wherein this Policy is contained were called the Books of discipline And without all doubt they who swore the Oath meaned by discipline that whole Policy of the Church which is contained in those Books 10. Secondly when that little Confession was framed the government of the Church was only by Presbyters and not by Bishops and therefore if ye think that the name of discipline in that Confession comprehendeth under it the first part of your distinction which as we conceive ye will no● deny ye may easily perceive that we are urged by you to sweare and subscrive against our Consciences since we think the rule of the government of the Church which then was to be changeable and that the Government was lawfully changed by following Assemblies and Parliaments from Presbyters to Bishops 11. Thirdly If these Constitutions of Counsells concerning objects alterable mentioned in the second member of your distinction be one the same with ordering of variable circumstā●es mentioned in the third member why have ye distinguished the one from the other But if they be different then ye grant that Ecclesiastick constitutions may be made concerning some alterable matters of Religion which are not bare circumstances which is repugnant to your ordinary doctrine whereby ye mantain that nothing changeable is left to the determination of the Church in matters of Religion but onely circumstances of Actions We can not see how ye can mantain this doctrine and yet oppose the determinations of the Church concerning Ceremonies which are indifferent 12. We had reason to inquire your judgement concerning Rites or Ceremonies which are not of divine Institution whether they be lawfull or not though ye still shun the declaring of it Since by your Covenant ye intend a reformation of Religion and a recovering of the Liberty and Purity of the Gospell as ye speak if ye in your judgement condemne such Ceremonies as ye insinuate we can not expect but that if ye obtain your desires all such Rites shall be expelled and condemned especially since by this your late Covenant ye tye your selves to that old Covenant wherein ye disclaim and detest all Rites brought into the Church without the word of GOD. Now we can not concurre with you for promoving this end because such a judgement is plain contrary to ours yea contrary to the universall judgement and practise of the Ancient Kirke repugnant also to the judgement of the Protestant Churches and most famous Divines therein as may appear by the quotations on the margine But if ye be of the same mind with us and think that there are some Rites of that kind lawfull why doe you hide your minde from us and others since the acknowledgement and manifesting of this Trueth would be no small advancement to your cause by removing this great offence Of Matrimoniall Benediction and God-fathers in Baptism 13. As for solemn blessing of Marriage we asked what warrand ye had for it by precept or practise set down in GODS Word In your Answere ye insinuate that it is a blessing of the people commanded in the Law and more plainly we find this set down in the Dispute against the English Popish Ceremonies Part. 3. Cap. 2. Sect. 10. Yet plain it is from Scripture it self that Matrimoniall Benediction ought to be given by a Pastor for GOD hath commanded his Ministers to blesse his People Numb 6. First who ever before you did ground the necessity of solemne blessing of Marriage upon these words Numb 6. 23. Speak unto Aaron and unto his sonnes saying on this wise ye shall blesse the children of Israel saying unto them the LORD blesse thee and keep thee c. Learned Melanchton was not so well versed in Scriptures as to see this For he sayeth in his Epistles Pag. 328. Ye see that the Rite of the Ancients is that the Bridegroom and Bride are joined before the Altar in the sight of GOD and with the incalling of GOD. Which custome undoubtedly hath been ordained by the first Fathers that we may consider that this conjunction was appointed by GOD and is assisted by Him 14. Secondly By this

better then ye have hither-to done 3. What the most honourable Lords of His Majesties Privy Counsell have done concerning the Kings Majesties last Proclamation is not sufficiently known to us and farre lesse upon what Grounds and Motives they have as you say rescinded their Approbation of the late Proclamation 4. His Majesties Religious and Righteous Disposition hath been to us and is a maine ground wherefore we rest and relye upon his gracious Proclamation perswading our selves that he intendeth not nor never intended any Innovation in Religion 5. We shall labour by all meanes to eschew every thing which in the least degree may wrong you our Reverend and worthy Brethren As for the Wrongs already done by us to you as yee pretend when-so-ever it shall please you to specifie them we hope to give you full satisfaction and to cleare our selves of that Imputation 6. The worke of GOD towards any Nation how strange and wonderfull so-ever it seem to be is never contrary to his Word and therefore we feare not to be found fighting against GODS Worke so long as we fight not against his Trueth revealed in his Word That all-seeing LORD knoweth that we mentaine his Trueth according to the light of our Consciences and are ready to joyne Heart and Hand with you for the Purity and Peace of this Church in every lawfull way course as sincere lovers of Trueth and Peace And now Brethren before we conclude againe we entreat you and all others our deare Countrey-men especially our reverend Bretheren of the holy Ministrie to judge charitablie of us and of our proceedings at this time and in particular of these our Demandes and Replyes which GOD is our witnesse neither hatred of any mans person nor love of Contention nor any worldly respect but only the Conscience of our Calling hath drawn from us And as for our Arguments for not Subscriving which are taken from our due subjection and obedience to our Soveraigne and his Lawes we protest and declare that they ought not to be so interpreted as if we intended to accuse you or others our dear Countrey-men of Disloyaltie towards our most Gracious KING or as if our purpose were to lay any such Imputation upon you for they are only used by us to show what the wordes of the Covenant seem to us to import and how we conceive of them as also what maketh us so to conceive of them We doubt not reverend Brethren but ye know that as we owe to you and to your Proceedings the favourable judgment of Charitie so we ought to judge of those thinges which we are to sweare and subscrive with the strict and inquisitive judgement of Veritie and consequently we ought to ponder duely and to propound particularly and fully to others especially to those who requyre our Oath and Subscription and undertake to satisfie our Consciences there-anent all the doubts and reasons which make us unwilling or afrayde to give our Subscription thereunto IOHN FORBES OF CORSE Doctor and Professor of Divinitie in ABERDENE ALEXANDER SCROGIE Minister at Old ABERDENE D. D. WILLIAM LESLIE D. D. and Principall of the KINGS Colledge in Old ABERDENE ROBERT BARON Doctor and Professor of Divinitie and Minister at ABERDENE IAMES SIBBALD Doctor of Divinitie and Minister at ABERDENE ALEXANDER ROSS Doctor of Divinitie and Minister at ABERDENE THE ANSVVERES OF SOME BRETHREN OF THE MINISTERIE TO THE REPLYES Of the Ministers and Professoures of DIVINITY in ABERDENE CONCERNING THE LATE COVENANT 2. CHRON. 15. 15. And all Juda rejoyced at the Oath For they had sworne with all their heart and sought Him with their whole desire and He was found of them To the Christian READER THat you may know our Proceedings how we are brought upon the Stage and contrary to our expectation are put in Print Comming to ABERDENE on Fryday the after-noon we received the Demands of our reverend Brethren that night late and for the greater expedition without delay we returned our summarie Answeres on Saturnday at night On the LORDS Day following we desired to expresse our selves to the People in presence of the Ministerie but the Pulpits and Kirks were altogether refused and therefore in the most convenient place we could have sub dio and at such houres as were vacant from the ordinary exercises of publicke Worship we delivered our Message in the audience of many After our last Sermon towards Evening we found that our labour was not in vain in the LORD for dyverse persones of speciall note both for place and wisdome with willing heart and great readinesse of minde did publicklie put their hands to the Covenant Having the weeke following seene some parts of the Countrey where besides the Presbyteries Alforde and Deere who had subscrived before the Moderator and dyverse of the Presbyterie of ABERDENE the Presbyterie and People of Turreff after they were satisfied in some scruples did also subscrive we returned the next Saturnday to ABERDENE where finding that some others had subscrived that weeke we resolved to preach upon the morne That night we received a Replye unto which before our returne home we have made an Answere All these we desire may be unpartially considered if it shall please the LORD that any light shall come from our Labour unto thy Minde let it bee as●ryved not unto us who neither had time nor helps for such a taske but to the brightnesse of the Trueth and Cause it selfe and to the Father of Lights to whome be all Glorie To our Reverend Brethren The Doctors and Ministers of Aberdene THat our Answeres reverend and beloved Brethren have not given you full satisfaction as it may be imputed to our weaknesse in the defence of so good a cause so it may proceed also from your own prejudice against what could be said by us which we have some reason to suspect for two causes one is that your Demands which we conceived to have been intended meerly for us and were sent unto us from you in write were published before our comming in Print like as ye have now printed and published your Replies before ye had seen our Answeres unto that which we received from you last in write we having promised to the bearer to returne an Answere shortly ere we departed the Countrey This may seem rather to be a seeking of victory from prejudice then a search of veritie for satisfaction The other cause of our suspicion is that the groundes of our Answeres to you have proven satisfactorie to others who for Age and gifts of Learning and Understanding are pryme men in this Kirke and Kingdome and to whom modestly will not suffer you to preferre your selves But whether our weaknesse or your prejudice be the cause must be now judged by others to whose view ye have brought us whom therefore we with you heartilie desire unpartially to consider our first and second Answeres wishing and hoping that partiality prejudice and all worldly respects and feares laide aside the naked Trueth shall