doe set upon the Minster again and do accuse him saying Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother yea thou hast slandred thine own Mothers Sonne ANSWER If you were not a man of a corrupt minde you would never I feare me vent such stuffe as this do you not tremble are you not afraid to dally thus with the word of God They are likened by some you say to women scoulding and accusing one another And with whom I pray should the Minister scould or who is it that he should accuse if at any time he should chance to read thus to the people alone I hope you would shrink out and be none of his auditors for feare he should scould with you accuse you for consenting with a thief note you for a partaker with adulterers a speaker against thy brother or tell thee that thou hast slandred thine own Mothers sonne away therefore with such impious cavils and dally not thus with the word of God These scoffes are fitter for Pagans then for Christians especially if they consider how dangerous a thing it is to sport themselves with holy things Be not angry Man for I do but reprove thee and set before thee the things that thou hast done I retort with as much patience as I can no more then what your selfe hath cast abroad Others make points and you take in hand to tag them But alasse we have more much like this a little after which as I meet it shall be answered DIALOGUE Gent. I remember that in the Churching of women the Minister is called Priest tell me I pray you is that a fit name for a Minister and Preacher of the Gospel Min. No verily For we read in Gods word of no more orders of Priests but of two the order of Aaron and the order of Melchisedech Of the order of Aaron were the Leviticall Priests whose office was to offer sacrifices which together with the Sacrifices was abolished in Christ his death Of the order of Melchisedech was Christ only and shall remaine Priest for ever A third order of Priests is to be found no where but in the Masse-book and in our Service-book The name Priest belongeth to every Christian man and woman as well as to the Minister according as it is written Revel 1.6 That Christ hath made us Kings and Priests unto God The meaning is that Christ hath made all the Elect men and women Priests to offer the sacrifices of prayse and of thankes unto God ANSWER The Minister is called Priest and why not I hope you know for you have noted it that all true Christians are called Priests and so Saint Peter as well as Saint John declareth it 1 Pet. 2.5 Revel 5.10 and therefore the Minister in particular may much more be called by that name although he offer none of those Sacrifices which were abolished by Christ nor intend the upholding of the Popish Masse with the blasphemous figments which are there else we condemn the Primitive Church of God in which this name which you here would quarrell with was of frequent use as you cannot but know if you know any thing of the ancient times The Prophet Esay doth * Chapt. 61.6 in one place say the same of Christians in generall which even Saint Peter and Saint John have written and in * Chapt. 66.21 another place declareth that God will choose some from among them to be Priests and Levites which though it be but an allusion doth denote a Priest-hood still and this to confist of an imparity as well as of old among the Jewes Besides were it so that the Minister might not be called Priest no more then any other Christian because the Scripture saith of every Christian man and woman Yee are an holy Priest-hood are made Kings and Priests unto God Then would it sollow first that none in particular should be a King And secondly that neither might any among the Jews have been a publike Priest or called by that name because the same which was said to Christians was also said to them when out of the Mount God sent them his message by his servant Moses Yee have seen saith the Lord what I did unto the Aegyptians and how I bare you on Eagles wings and brought you unto my selfe Now therefore if yee will obey my voice indeed and keep my Covenant then yee shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people for all the earth is mine And yee shall be unto me a kingdome of Priests and an holy Nation Exod. 19.4,5,6 It is also warranted by that of Saint Paul in Hebr. 7.12 where if you mark it you shall finde that Priesthood is not taken away but translated or changed onely and so also Irenaeus saith lib. 4. c. 34. And as for the testimonies out of the other Fathers they are so common as I need not mention them only let me say that you may finde the name both of Priest and Priest-hood in the writings of Ignatius that Martyr already mentioned who as you know was scholler to Saint John that wrote the Revelation This strife of words you should therefore carefully avoid it doth but disquiet unstable soules Grant then that name without quarrelling to him which the Scripture not onely gives to every true member of the Church but foretold it in some sort of even the Evangelicall Ministers in more particular where though the Prophet mentions Levites also who were properly so called in regard of their tribe yet as is probable enough he means not that therefore the name of Priest should not be used no more then that of Levite for except those Priests to which he alludeth had had their name only in respect of such Sacrifices as then were offered and to be ended at the death of Christ and not in regard also of other duties which are common to us and them which neither are nor may be abolished I see no reason to think otherwise To teach and blesse the people were the services of the Priests both before the Law and under the Law as well as now Melchisedech was a Priest before the Law and blessed Abraham to whom also Abraham paid his Tythes Gen. 14.19,20 Nor was it but said to Aaron and his sonnes under the Law That they should teach the sonnes of Israel all the Statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses Levit. 10.11 and in Malachy it stands recorded The priests lips should keep knowledge and they should seek the Law at his mouth for he is the Messenger of the Lord of hosts Malach. 2.7 and in Ezekiel They shall teach my people the difference between the holy and prophane ch 44.23 and in 6 Num. the 6 last verses The Lord spake unto Moses saying speak unto Aaron and to his sonnes saying On this wise yee shall blesse the children of Israel saying unto them The Lord blesse thee and keep thee The Lord make his face shine upon thee and be gratious unto the The Lord lift
any receive his mark on the forehead and on the hand he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God therefore some do keep their children unbaptized rather then have them marked with the mark of the beast ANSWER By that figne made on our foreheads is intented that we should be put in remembrance of that Christian warfare which every one baptized is to enter into and to continue in unto the end if he will be saved See Rom. 8.13 1 Tim. 6.1 Revel 2.10,11 chap. 21.7,8 So that we are not signed with the signe of the crosse in token of any superstitious matter but of a matter most necessary For though we walk in the flesh we do not warre after the flesh but are commanded to fight the good fight of Faith to endure hardnesse as a good souldier of Jesus Christ to be strong in the Lord and in power of his might to put on the whole armour of God whereby we may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devill and are taught not to glory save in the crosse of our Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world is crucified unto us and we unto the world nor is it but written that Michael and his Angels fight against the Dragon and his Angels Revel 12.7 And therefore we are to acquit our selves like men and must confesse the Faith of Christ crucified and must take unto us the whole armour of God whereby we may be able to withstand in the evill day and having done all to stand Eph. 6.13 Galat. 6.14 1 Tim. 6.12 2 Tim. 2.3 c. Now all these are main Christian duties and who so unfainedly endeavoureth to keep them needs not in any wise be offended at the signe used to put him in minde of them but will rather thank God that he is born in such a Church where not only the true Christian life is taught by tongue and pen but is also signified by some ceremony for ones more remembrance of the same The Israelites had their fringes on the borders of their garments with a ribban of blew that looking thereupon they might remember all the Commandements of the Lord Num. 15.38,39 Nor hath the Christian Church but power to appoint Ceremonies though the particulars be not as directly specified as was that to them of Israel for which we have a text in 1 Cor. 14.40 Shee therefore useth this godly Ceremony of signing with the signe of the Crosse for a good signification and transgresseth not no more then those in the daies of Joshua who built an Altar for which they had no command in the Law of Moses in regard they did it as do we for a good signification See Josh 22.22 And whereas you tell us of the mark of the Beast The mark of the Beast is surely one thing and the signe of the Crosse another They are threatned with damnation which receive the mark of the Beast But is an Infant therefore damned because he reciveth at anothers hand the sign of the Crosse upon his forehead and is no agent in it himself nor able to know either what 's done or threatned You shew your selfe a proper Divine I promise you and would broach such an inequality in the wayes of God as is utterly condemned in his holy word The soule saith the Lord that sinneth it shall dy the Sonne shall not bear the iniquity of the Father neither shall the Father bear the iniquity of the Sonne the righteousnesse of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickednesse of the wicked shall be upon him Ezek. 18.20 which if it make not against you let your self be judge Besides as we are free enough from receiving any mark on the hand at Confirmation so are we as able to shew that the signe of the Crosse was in use before the Beast that should impose it was born yea even whilest the Bishops of Rome were glorious Martyrs and the Church of God under the troubles of the persecuting Emperours witnesse those proofs which are brought out of Tertullian Origen and Cyprian by the learned to shew that they used it In immortali lavacro in the immortall laver See Tertull. lib. de resur Carnis Cypr. Epist 56. Jeu lib. 4. Epist 6. lib. de Lapsis sub init lib. ad Demetrianum In the first of which quotations out of Cyprian the said Father councelleth that the forehead be garded that thereby the signe of God may be kept in safety and in the second he speaks of the same signe upon the forehead and in the third he saith that by this Sacrament viz. Baptisme and signe we are enrolled Nor doth Bishop Jewell but grant that the signe of the Crosse among the Christians was had in great regard Neither when the Papists charge us with Novelties can you better know how to answer their objection then truly to tell them that their abuses are new but the things which they abused we retain in their primitive use and forsake only the novell corruption and for as much as this Ceremony was abused as is confessed in time of Popery it doth plainly imply that it was well used before Popery as King James of blessed memory hath very worthily affirmed in the conference holden at Hampton Court DIALOGUE Gent. What fault do they finde with the Prayers that are made at the administration of Baptisme Min. They finde fault with the Popish errors that are in them as in the first Prayer before Baptisme it is written that God hath sanctified the flood Jordan and all other waters to the my stycall washing away of sinne The truth is that there is no mysticall washing away of sin in water but a true and reall washing away of sin in the blood of Christ 1 Joh. 1.7 The water in Baptisme doth but signifie that as foul things are washed and made clean in water so the souls of the Elect defiled with sin are made clean in the blood of Christ 1 Joh. 1.7 ANSWER You come now to finde fault with the Prayers that are made at the adminstration of baptisme and to pick some holes in their popish coats for in your esteem they want not their popish errors But shall I tell you Saint Austin speaks in the same language that you mention to be in the first Prayer before baptisme else he had never said in his 29 Sermon Detempore That Christ in the waters of Jordan consecrated the waters for the reparation of humane kinde under baptisme And a little after Et quia saith he per universum mundum sacramentum Baptismi humano generi opus erat omnibus aquis benedictionem dedit quando in Jordanis alveum unica ac singulari piet ate descendit Tunc enim Christum Dominum non tam lavit undo quam lota est That is And because saith he the Sacrament of Baptisme was needfull for mankinde throughout the whole world he gave a blessing to all waters when in his only and fingular piety he descended into the river
of the Prophet Mich For in Mic. 5.2 we read that Bethlem was the least Minima existendo in ducibus Jehudae and yet in Matth. 2.6 we finde it turned Thou Bethlem not the least the one regarding the quantity of the place the other the dignity So in this of the Psalmist They were not obedient is true if it be applyed to Pharoah and the Aegyptians although not of such an exact truth as the very letter of the originall verity may import by referring the speech to Moses and Aaron as the most doe or to the Signes wrought in Aegypt as Junius doth For then the righter reading is They were not disobedient So that you see both upon what ground this reading standeth and upon what ground it may be altered if authority think fitting so to doe unto whom I leave it DIALOGUE Gent. You said that the Service-book doth pervert the meaning of Christ in diverse places of the Revelation I pray you shew me some of those places Min. The fourteenth Chapter is appointed to be read on Childermasse day after a Popish manner for an Epistle of purpose to pervert the meaning of Christ ANSWER What an uncharitable and a rash accusation have we here I think that unlesse the Devill himself should interpret intentions a worse interpretation could seldome have been hatched DIALOGUE Gen What was the meaning of Christ in that Chapter Min. The meaning of Christ in that Chapter was and now is to shew that in time of greatest persecutions when the heathen persecuting Emperours and after them the Popes did rage most against the Christian Religion and professours thereof Christ had his * In his Church I think you mean else there will be scarce sence in the words Church though invisible 144000. preserved by him and kept chaste and undefiled * This with I think you meant from with spirituall fornication of Idolatry ANSWER These 144000 were the particular true members of the Church militant in the daies of Antichrist set down in a mysterious number not easie to be understood and were without question that seed of the woman mentioned chap. 12.17 with whom the Beast should make war chap. 13.7 yea these were all those faithfull people of God who from the beginning of Antichrists reign which began about the year of our Lord 606 as is not improbable professed the truth even untill the daies of the Reformation of the Church afterwards mentioned at which time these first fruits day by day were more more increased yea these being contemporary with the beast do plainly teach that God had many thousands of his true worshippers even in the darkest daies of the great Antichrist when there seemed very few or none remaining For the Papacy creeping in was like a botch or filthy soare by which the faire face of the woman in Chapter the twelfth was over spread The heathen persecuting Emperours were before this even whilest the said woman glorious in the Primitive times was cloathed with the Sunne Crowned with a Crown of twelve Stars and trampled the Moon under her feet Nor doth this but likewise seem to be parallell to those dayes of Elijah when there were 7000 scattered throughout the tribes of Israel who were unknown For so in these times there were many thousands some in one Country some in another who did distaste the Idolatries Superstitions of Rome and with these the Lamb was present Wherefore from hence we may easily give answer to that question which the Papists to no purpose have often urged again us saying Where was your Church before Luther It was amongst them like an handfull of wheat in a Mountain of chaffe For this place as in the 12 chapt before teacheth that the Church hath had her latency and yet was not extinguished no more then the Sunne when he is hid by the covering of some darke or thick cloud For look by how much the want of sincerity and increase of the Popes usurped tyranny prevailed by so much was the Orthodox Church being true professours of the primitive purity obscured and in respect of a greater multitude so suppressed and clouded over that a man would think there were scarce any such to be found at all But true it is they were but respectively invisible and therefore persecuted by the Popish faction through whom their faith was not seldome sealed with blessed martyrdome And this chiefely is all that is meant by the latency of the true Church and flying of the woman into the wildernesse DIALOGUE Gent. How is the meaning of Christ perverted Min. By misapplying that to Children slain by Herod which was written of Christians persecuted and slain by the heathen persecuting Emperours and Popes Gent. Why doth the Pope pervert the meaning of Christ by misapplying that to the Children slain by Herod which was written of Christ and his Church persecuted by the heathen Emperours and the Popes Min. The Pope and so many of our Lord Bishops as are popish doe pervert the meanning of Christ by causing that chapter to be read on Childermasse day of purpose to keep weak Christians in blindnes so as they shall not be able to give an answer to the Papists when they shall aske them where their Religion and Church was an hundred years a goe before Martin Luthers time ANSWER Here 's still more of your little charity but me thinks you rather might have said that as 144000. were seen standing with the Lamb upon mount Sion so the blessed Innocents as on this day murthered by cruell Herod were witnesses to the Lamb not by speaking but by suffering for Christ and so both his name and his Fathers name were written in their foreheads and their voice was like the sound of many waters and as the voice of a great thunder because in Rama was there a voice heard lamentation weeping and great mourning and their crying was a song a dolefull ditty to their Parents eare Rachel weeping for her Children and would not be comforted because they were not but yet a pleasant and pretious ditty in Gods eare so sweet as the voyce of Harpers harping with their harps Nor was this their sighing but as a new song because they were the first fruits of Martyrs unto God They may be also said to follow the Lamb whithersoever be went Cant. 5.10 because as the Lamb was white and ruddy so they were white in their innocency being Virgins in their chastity without any guile in their mouth or guile in their life but in respect of their blood-shed for the Lamb they were bloody red and bleeding So then you see that although the Epistle was Historically true in what was afterwards as in the former answer I have explained yet fit to be read on that day which you call Childermasse day in allusion to what was then DIALOGUE Gent. What other meaning had Christ in that Chapter Min. His meaning was to shew that in his good time he would give a free passage and good
up his countenance upon thee and give thee peace And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel and I will blesse them All which is still done by the Ministers of the Gospell they blesse they teach they instruct they rebuke they reprove they exhort they consecrate the Bread and Wine to holy uses they offer up the Prayers of the people nay more they do as it were offer Christ in a Mystery and sacrifice him objectively by way of commemoration In which we differ farre from the Church of Rome for the Romish Church professeth the Body and Blood of Christ to be the proper subject we nay but the proper object of our Celebration We take then a Priest and Presbiter now to be all one and list not to quarrell any longer about the word For should we descend to Grammer we are told as much as comes fully home namely that the word Priest hath his right place in him whose meer function and charge is the service of God Whereunto let me only adde that which I find in Bishop Jewell We know saith he that the Priest or Minister of the Church of God is divided from the rest of his brethren as was the tribe of Levi from the children of Israel and hath a speciall office over the people Neither may any man force himself into that office without lawfull calling But as touching the inward Priest-hood and the exercise of the soule we say even as Saint Peter and Saint John and Tertullian have said in this sence every faithfull Christian man is a Priest and offereth to God Spirituall Sacrifices In this only sence I say and none otherwise Thus he granting that there is a Priest-hood internall and a Priest-hood externall For saith he there is not one of us that ever taught otherwise See this in his Defence of the Apology for the Church of England Part 2. pag. 130. DIALOGUE Gent. What do you think of the Priest and Clark when they do Church a woman Min. I will not tell you what I think but I will tell you what some doe say Gent. What do they say Min. They say that the Priest is like a witch Gent. Why doe they say that the Priest is like to a witch Min. Because he doth as a witch doth when she saith the Lords Prayer Gent. What doth a witch when she saith the Lords Prayer Min. She leaves out these words but deliver us from evill and so doth the Priest when he doth Church a woman Gent. Why will not a witch say these words Min. Because the Devill will not let her till she hath bewitched so many as he would have her For by the evill that is prayed against in that petition is meant the Devill and the sinne whereunto he tempteth therefore the Devill will not have her to say these words because when she saith them she prayeth that God will deliver her from him and the witchery whereunto he tempteth her ANSWER This is a cavill scarce worth the answering for it is most certain that the evill which you speak of is prayed against The most therefore which you could urge fairely is no more but this viz. That the order in saying that Prayer had been better without an answer interposed then by the interposing of one in which I think you should have met with few or none to quarrell you But to speak so basely and in such unbeseeming manner as you have done serves as a figne to shew with what a malignant spirit you wrote these things who do rather play the witch your selfe by speaking perverse words to draw away disciples after you then justly accuse the Priest in these your vain janglings But it is as Saint Paul gave notice a great while since when he called the Elders of Ephesus together as we read in the twentieth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles at the 30 verse DIALOGUE Min. The Priest doth also skip over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer for thine is the kingdome power and glory and therein also they say that he is like to a witch when she doth say the Creed for when she saith the second Article And in Jesus Christ his onely sonne she skips over these words Our Lord and so doth the Priest slip over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer Gent. Saint Luke leaves it out and therefore the Priest may leave them out Luk. 11.4 Min. It followeth not that therefore the Minister may leave them out for Saint Luke did not write any thing of himselfe but what the holy Ghost would have him to write Gent. Why would not the holy Ghost have him to write them Min. Because it was sufficient that Saint Mathew had writ them Math. 6.13 ANSWER Here you shew us still more of your skill in witchery and tell us of the Priests skipping over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer And indeed if there were not some President for it in Scripture it might not be But there is president for it in Luke 11.4 although you be pleased to passe it over with a non sequitur And yet for all that it may follow well enough For whereas it seemed good to the holy Ghost in one Evangelist to adde the Doxologie and in another to omit it the Church is blamelesse and may indifferently follow either the one or the other seeing both of them wrote by inspiration For who knows except you who know any thing whether it were the purpose of the holy Ghost to have Saint Luke omit it because Saint Matthew had recorded it and not rather to shew that it was a compleat Prayer at the end of the petitions although the reason of the petitions be not mentioned where the Doxology is omitted It is well then to repeat those words of the conclusion and not ill although they be not alwaies mentioned for our Church in so doing hath the pattern not only of all the Latine and some of the Greek Fathers but even of Saint Luke himself Quando dicimus libera nos à malo nihil remanet quod ultra adhuc debeat postulari as saith Saint Cyprian Cypr. de Orat. Dominic that is When we say Deliver from evill there remains nothing more to be prayed for DIALOGUE Gent. Some doe think because Saint Mark and Saint John doe make no mention of the Lords Prayer that therefore the Minister may omit the reading of it and that because the Evangelists and the Apostles did not use to say it as a Prayer therefore none neither Minister nor people ought to use it as a Prayer Min. The truth is that our Saviour Christ did make it for all Christians to use as a prayer and also for a pattern to pray by Gent. Where doe you finde that our Saviour Christ would have it used as a Prayer Min. In the 11 chapter of the Gospell written by Saint Luke and the second verse where it is written that our Saviour said When you pray say Our Father which c. Gent. Where doe