buyers and sellers out of the temple what office did Paule committe to Timothy when he sayde aduersùs Presbyterum c I woulde not haue a mynister to be a warriour or a farmer or a marchant or haue any such like osfice which consisteth in gayne or bodily labour only But why he may not haue suche an office as is profitable to encrease godlinesse and punish vngodlinesse I heare as yet no reason As for the office of an high commissioner it is Ecclesiasticall for they haue to do only in causes Ecclesiasticall T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. And for Elye and Samuell they are extraordinarie examples whiche may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meeting in Melchisedech and afterwarde in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lorde toke from Moses beyng so wise and godly a man the Priesthoode and gaue it to Aaron and to his successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe his churche make it famous renoun ed in the world he gaue this order it appeareth that he would haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lorde did not tarie vntill Moses death but tooke the priesthoode away from Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elye or Samuell Io. Whitgifte It is not certayne whether Moses were euer Priest or no for where it is sayd It is doubtfull whether Moses were priest in the. 99. Bsalme Moses Aaron in sacerdotibus eius the Hebrewe worde is doubtfull and signifieth as well a Prince as a Priest therefore vpon this place it cannot necessarily be concluded that Moses was a Priest Moreouer at that time the chiefe rulers men of greatest authoritie were called Priestes but you neuer redde that Moses offered vp any sacrifices for sinne which was the proper office of the Priest Neyther can you tell vs where he was euer consecrated Priest In déede Harding against the Apologie doth alledge this example at Moses being as he sayeth both a ciuill Magistrate and a Priest to proue that the Pope may be both King and Priest But be it as you say that these two offices were distinguished in Moyses Aaron that the Priests office which consisteth in offering oblations sacrifices was taken from him yet did he kéepe still his former authoritie in gouerning the church and in prescribing to Aaron what he should do euen in matters perteyning to the worship of God so that these two offices I meane ciuill and Ecclesiasticall are not so distinct but that they may both aptly well méete ioyne togither Further more Ciuill and ecclesiasticall offices mette in one you know that howsoeuer the priesthood ciuill Magistracie were deuided in Moses and Aaron yet mette they both togither againe not onely in Elye Samuell but in Es ras Nehemias Mattathias and some other which examples proue that vpon occasion these offices may meete togither in one Person they quite ouerthrow your allegation of Moses Chap. 3. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. And this may be also easily seene for that in a manner alwayes where there was any good stayde estate of the church these offices were ministred by seueral persons and then mette and were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and miserable A d if this be a good reason to proue that ministers may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and minister the Sacraments For if the ministers may exercise ciuill offices bicause Elye Samuell beyng ministers did so the Princes and iudges may preach the worde and mynister the Sacraments bicause Elye and Samuell being Princes and iudges did so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to desend one confusion bringeth in an other Io. Whitgifte Here you confesse that which hetherto in your whole booke you haue denied and T. C. confesseth the groūd of all these cōtrouersies that which is in deede the whole grounde of the chiefe matters in controuersie that is that the gouernment of the Churche may be diuerse according to the diuersitie of the time and state of the same as in the time of persecution it may be otherwise gouerned than in time of peace otherwise when the state is established than when it is ruynous and in decaye for say you In a manner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the church these offices were ministred by seuerall persons and then mette and were mingled when the estates were very ruynous Thus haue you graunted of your owne accorde that which hitherto you haue so stifly and stoutly denied such is the might force of the truth And yet the church was in good state all Sainuels time and the moste parte of Elyes also for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie I brought in those examples to proue that these offices haue mette togither and The state of y e controuerūe altered by the Replier therefore be not so diuers as you would make them I do not vse them to this ende that I would haue a Priest to be a King you know the state of our question is onely whether Bishops may exercise those ciuill functions of Iusticeship of Peace and such like which the Prince committeth vnto them or no and not whether they may sitte in the Princes throne and take hir Scepter out of hir hande whether she will or no as the Pope doth And therfore whereas you saythat by these exāples of Elye and Samuell I may as well conclude that Princes may preach the worde and minister the sacraments as Priests and ministers execute cruill offices I thinke you do not consider that these ciuill offices be but accidents to the priesthode therefore may well be remoued as they were from Samuell when Saule was chosen King for Samuell kepte his Priesthoode though he lost his ciuill authoritie but the Priesthoode is not so to the cyuill magistrate except he will be ordinarily and lawfully admitted therevnto I thuike that there is no degree of dignitie that maketh a man vnmeete for the ministerie if he be therevnto lawfully called and haue other giftes méete for the same wherefore as it followeth not that a minister in the respect that he is a minister ought to haue a ciuill office but that he may haue one if he be by the ciuill Magistrate therevnto appoynted so it doth not follow that a ciuill Magistrate ought to be a minister of the woorde but that he may be if he be méete and therevnto ordinarily and lawfully called and admitted The Prieste may not take vpon him the office of the ciuill Magistrate vnlesse he be called lawfully vnto it nor the ciuill Magistrate may not take vpon him the office of a Priest vnlesse he be ordinarily therevnto admitted And this is no confusion at all Chap. 3. the. 10. Diuision
argument is nothing worth nunquà m licet saith Zuinglius nequè in diuinis nequé in Zainglius profanis à facto ad ius argumentari it is neuer lawful neither in diuine nor in prophane matters to argue * à facto ad ius Neyther is the text as you report it for the words do not Of a deede or example to make a lawe signify that Paule would not haue takē him with him vnlesse they had al giuen such testimonie of him neither can there be any such sense truly gathered out of that place And it is manifest that the Apostles receiued Paule into their company at the testimonie and commendation of Barnabas only Act. 9. Chapter 1. the. 11. Diuision Ansvvere of the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. 1. You say that there be admitted into the ministerie of the basest sort of the people I know not what you mean by the basest sort this I am sure of that the ministerie is not now bound to any one tribe as it was to the tribe of Leui in Ieroboams time now none is secluded from that function of any degree state or calling so that those qualities be founde in him whiche in that office are to be required T. C. Page 26. Lin 14. You know they meant by the basest of the people such as gaue but one leape out of the shop into the Church as sodainly are changed out of a seruing mans coate into a ministers cloake making for the most part the ministerie their last refuge c. And seeing that besides the words be playne the dayly experience teacheth it you neede not make it so straunge as though you knew not what they meant Io. Whitgifte I heare you say so but why did they then quote the. 1. Reg. 1 〈◊〉 3 that manifestly proueth the same sense that I haue gathered of their words and that text onely occasioned me so to do Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. I maruell to what purpose the twelfth chapiter of the first booke of kings is here quoted for Ieroboam is there reproued bycause hee tooke the priesthoode from the tribe of Leui to the which only it dyd apperteyne The Papists neuer tooke so great occasion of slaundring the Gospell Offences gyuen to the Pa pists by their contentions at the ignorance of the ministers for they haue of themselues those that be as ignorant and more as they do at your schismes and fond opinions wherwith you disquiet the peace of the Churche and lay stumbling blocks before the weake for the which God will surely call you to accoumpt The second chapter to the Romaynes is here quoted only to painte the margent Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer in silence VVhether Idolatrous sacrificers and Massemongers may aftervvard be ministers of the Gospell Chapter second the first Diuision Admonition The seconde In those days o 〈◊〉 5. 4. 〈◊〉 ▪ 44. 10. 12. 13. Ierem. 23. no Idolatrous sacrificers of Heathenish priests wer appointed to be Preachers of the Gospell but we allow and like well of Popish massemongers me for all seasons King Henries priestes king Edwards Priests Queene Maries Priests who of a truth if Gods word were precisely followed should from the same be vtterly remoued Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. vlt. The place in the fifth chapter of the Hebrues quoted in the margent speaketh nothing of Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenishe Priestes but onely by the example of Aaron proueth that no man ought to intrude himselfe into the office of a Bishop or Priest except he be called of God Lord how dare these men thus wring the scriptures In the 23. of the Prophet Ieremy there is much spokē against false prophets but not one word for any thing that I see to proue that idolatrous sacrificers maye not be admitted to preache the Gospell Io. Whitgifte To this is nothing answered Chap. 2. the second Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. Pag. 40. Sect. 1. The places of the 44. of Ezechiell haue some shew in them for there the Lord commaundeth the Leuites which had committed Idolatrie to be put from their dignitie and not to be receiued into the priestes office but to serue in inferioure ministeries I thinke you will not make this a generall rule to debarre suche from preaching of the Gospell as haue through infirmitie fallen be now with hartie repentance retourned We haue many examples to the contrary Peter forswore his master Christ which was as euill Peters forswearing as sacrificing to Idolls and yet he was not put from his Apostleship We haue diuers examples in the Primitiue Church of suche as by feare being compelled to sacrifice to strange gods after repented and kepte still the office of preaching the Gospell and did moste constantly die in the same T. C. Page 26. Sect. 1. What ought to be generall if this ought not to put the minister that hath bin an Idolater from his ministerie is it not a commaundemente of God and giuen not of one Leuite or two but of all 2. Cha. 23. those that went backe not at one time but at others also when the like occasion was giuen as appeareth in the booke of the kings where all the priests of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places were not suffered to come to the altar in Ierusalem Doth not S. Paule make smaller 1. Tim. 3. causes of deposing from the ministerie than Idolatrie For after he hath described what maner of men the ministers should be and Deacons he addeth And being tried (a) S Paule his words and meaning falsisyed let them execute theyr functions as long as they remayne blamelesse I thinke if so be a man had bin knowne to be an adulterer although he repented him yet none that is well aduised would take him into the ministerie for if S. Paule reiect him that had ij wiues at once which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull and that was common amongst them and had preuayled throughout all the world how much lesse would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie which should be an adulterer and haue another mans wife which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ and which is not so general a mischiefe as that was and suffer him to abide in the ministerie which should committe such wickednesse during his function and likewise of a murtherer now the sinne of Idolatrie is greater and more detestable than any of them in as much as perteyning to the first table it immediatly stayneth Gods honoure and breaketh duetie to him vnto whome we more owe it without all comparison than to any mortall man And if S. Paule in the choise of the widowe to attend vpon the sicke of the Churche which was the lowest office in the Churche requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise honest and holy
then came it neyther from the Papistes nor yet from the Gentils But whensoeuer this began or from whom soeuer it was taken the baptizing of infantes hath alwayes bene thought necessarie in the Church by all such as haue not deuided themselues by any Schisme or Heresie from the same Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. 4. Now I returne to the example of Sephora and say that the vnlawfulnesse of that facte doth appeare sufficiently in that she did it (*) Mose by reson of sicknesse was not able to do it himselfe before hir husbande Moses which was a Prophete of the Lorde and (a) This is contrary to that he hath Pag. 17 Sect. 1. to whome that office of circumcision did appertayne so that vnlesse M. Doctor would haue midwiues baptise in the presence of the Bishop or the minister there is no cause why he shoulde alleage this place besides that she did cut of the fore skinne of the Infante not of minde to obey the commaundement of God or for the saluation of the chylde but in a choler onely to the ende that hir husbande might be eased and haue release which minde appeareth in hir both by hir woordes and by casting away in anger the foreskinne which she had cut of And if it be sayde that the euent declared that the acte pleased God bycause that Moses forthwith waxed better and was recouered of his sickenesse I haue shewed before how if we measure things by the euent we shall oftentymes iustifie the wicked and take the rightuousnesse of the rightuous from them Io. Whitgifte In the. 170. Page of your booke you say that God toke the Priesthode from Moses Pag. 170. Sect. 1. and gaue it to Aaron and nowe you séeme to affirme the contrarie in saying that Moses was a Prophete of the Lorde to whome that office of circumcision did apperteyne for hereby you do insinuate that Moses was a Prieste Moreouer Moses at this tyme was extréemely sicke and therefore could not execute that office himselfe And in the Geneua Bible there is this note that it was extraordinarie for Moses was sore sicke and God euen then required it Sephora therefore did circumcise in a poynt of extremitie Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred and not wilfully or of purpose that circumcision was a true circumcision though it were not done ordinarily euen so Baptisme is true Baptisme though it be sometimes ministred by such as be not ordinarie ministers The euent doth oftentimes declare the thing Exitus acta probat though not necessarily but this is certayne that these euentes are better reasons to iustifie the fact than you can she we any out of that place to the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 113. Sect. vlt. Pag. 114. Sect. 1. An other reason he hath which is that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man whether he be minister or no minister good or euill In deede vpon this poynt whether he be good or an euill minister it dependeth not but on this poynt whether he be a minister or no dependeth not onely the dignitie but also (a) A straunge as sertiō auouched without proofe the beyng of the Sacrament so that I take the baptisme of women to be nomore the holy Sacrament of baptisme than I take any other dayly or ordinarie washing of the childe neyther let any man thinke that I haue at vnwares slipped into this asseueration or that I haue forgotten that soone after the tymes of the Apostles it was the vse of certayne Churches that Deacons shoulde baptize in the tyme of necessitie as they call it for as for the Baptisme of Deacons I holde it to be lawfull for bycause although as it is with vs they giue him the name of Deacon (*) Vrge hoc c. yet in deede he is as he then was in the elder tymes a minister and not a Deacon And although he did then provide for the poore and so had two functions which was not meete yet his office ought to be esteemed of the principall parte of his function which was preachyng and ministring of the Sacramentes in certayne cases And as for the baptising by laye men considering that it is not onely agaynst the woorde of God but also founded vpon a false grounde and vpon an imagined necessitie which is none in deede it moueth me nothing at all although it be very auncient for so muche as the substance of the Sacrament dependeth chiefly of the institution and woorde of God whiche is the forme and as it were the lyfe of the sacrament of which institution this is one and of the chiefe partes that it should be celebrated by a minister Io. Whitgifte If this be true and sounde doctrine then is there many that go vnder the name The inconuenience of the Repliers doctrine of Christians whiche were neuer baptized for besides diuerse that haue bene baptized by women some there are and not a fewe that haue bene baptized by suche as haue taken vpon them the ministerie not beyng therevnto eyther ordinarily or extraordinarily called and it may so be that T. C. hath hereby proued himselfe to be no Christian. And surely if you peruse all the writinges of the auncient Fathers and of the The assertion hath no sufficiēt patrones late wryters in lyke manner I beléeue that you shall not finde the lyke proposition affirmed for although diuers bothe olde and newe do not allowe that Lay men shoulde be suffred to baptise yet is there none of them suche onely excepted as erre in rebaptisation that thinke the beyng of the sacrament so to depende vpon the minister that Baptisme by lay men Tertull. Ambrose Hierome Augustine Zuinglius it is no sacrament if it be not celebrated by a minister Tertull. in his booke De Baptismo sayth That laye men may Baptise Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephes. sayeth that in the beginning it was lawfull for all menne to Baptise Ierome ad Luciferianos affirmeth that it is lawfull for Laye men to Baptise if necessitie do requyre And herevnto also dothe S. Augustine agrée in his 2. Booke agaynst the Epistle of Parmenian the. 13. Chapter M. Zuinglius in the place before by me alleaged VVriteth that the seconde errour in the circumstances of Baptisme is aboute the person bycause they thinke that Baptisme can not be gyuen of any but of a Prieste onely whereas if necessitie do requyre any man may do it And a little after he sayeth That this and such lyke circumstances are not De ipsa Baptismi essentia Not of the beyng of the Sacrament Whiche is directly contrary to your assertion M. Caluine also in his Institutions Cap. 17. Sect. 16. doth sufficiently Caluine confute this errour in these woordes Nowe if it be true that we haue set downe the Sacrament is not to be esteemed of his hande by whome it is ministred but as it were of the
vntill I heare some proofe or authoritie to the contrarie Howbeit the waight of the cause lieth not vpon this text this is but one reason among diuerse Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor heareth with his left eare and readeth with his lefte eye as though his right eye were pulled out or his right are cut of For otherwise the other wordes which they haue touching this matter might easily haue bene expounded by the argument and matter whiche they handle Io. Whitgifte How doth it then happen that you haue not salued the matter by setting downe theyr wordes and declaring how I haue mistaken them seyng you haue omitted that men may well thinke that this is not vttered of you in good earnest Now that you haue sayde all in this matter you must giue me leaue to let the Reader vnderstande what you haue lefte vntouched in my booke concerning the same whither it be bycause you consent vnto it or that you cannot answere it I referre to his discretion ¶ The profite of Reading Scriptures in the Churche Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus sayth that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers Isidorus Tertul. in Apologet Tertullian sayth when we come togither to the reading of the holy Scriptures we feede our fayth with those heauenly voyces we rayse vp our affiance we fasten our hope And agayne he calleth the reading of the Scriptures the feeding of our fayth But what neede I speake any more of a matter so manifest you atly ioyne Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papiste in this for in the confutation of the Apologie of the Church of England M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Churche a spirituall dumbnesse and a thing Parte 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Replie vnprofitable c. That to reade the Scriptures in the Churche is no new thing but most auncient and grounded vpon Gods worde it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke where the Euangelist sayeth that Christe on the Sabboth daye going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner rose vp to read and there vvas deliuered vnto him the booke of the Prophete Esay and as soone as he opened the booke he founde the place vvhere it vvas vvritten Spiritus Domini super me c. The spirite of the Lorde vpon me c. Likewise in the thirtenth of the Actes we reade that Paule and other of his company beyng in the Synagogue on the Sabboth day was sent vnto by the rulers of the Sinagogue Post lectionem legis Prophetarum After the reading Ad. 13. of the lavve and the Prophetes To knowe if they would make any exhortation to the people Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis sayth that in his time the manner Iustinus Mar yr was on the Sabboth day vvhen the people vvere gathered togither to haue the scriptur s read in the publike congregation and in the time of publike prayer for the space of one vvhole hovver Origen writing vpon Iosua Homil. 15. sayeth that the bookes of the Orig n. olde Testament vvere deliuered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian heauenly vvordes he readeth out the Gospell of Christe c. Chrysostome vpon the Actes Homil. 19. The minister and common minister standeth vp and crieth vvith a lovvde voyce saying Keepe silence Chrysostome Augustine after that the Reader beginneth the prophesie of Esay Augustine speaking to the people sayeth Yee heard vvhen the Gospell vvas read Ye heard erevvhyle vvhen it vvas read if ye gaue eare to the reading dearely beloued vve haue heard in the lesson that hath bene read Admonition And that this is not the feeding that Christe spake of the Scriptures are playne d For reading ministers vievv these places Mala. 2. 7. Esay 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at 15. 14. Tim. 3. 3 Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too for players yet learne theyr partes without booke and these a mayny of them can scarcely read within booke These are emptie feeders e Math. 6. 22 darke eyes f Math. 9. 38 〈◊〉 3. ill workemen to hasten in the Lordes haruest g Luc. 14. 17 messangers that can not cal h Mat. 23. 34 Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord i Math. 5. 13 vnsauerie salt k Mat. 15. 14 blind guides l Isay. 36. 10 sleepie watchmen m Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. vntrustie dispensers of Gods secretes n 2. Tim. 2. 15 euill deuiders of the worde o 〈◊〉 1. 9. weake to withstande the aduersarie p 2. T 3. 15. 16. not able to confute And to conclude so farre from making the man of God perfect to all good workes that rather the quite contrarie may be confirmed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid vs viewe these places Mala. 2. vers 7. Esay 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophete Malachie in the seconde chapter and seuenth verse sayeth on this sorte For the Priestes lippes shoulde preserue knovvledge and they shoulde seeke the lavve at his mouthe For he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes In whiche wordes the Prophete doth signifie that the Priestes ought to be learned in the lawe and able to instruct which no man denieth and if there be any crepte into the ministerie whiche a not able so to do it is to be ascribed eyther to the negligence of t Bishop and such as haue to do therein or to the necessitie of the Reading is profitable t me But here is nothing spoken agaynst reading for any thing that I can gather and if any man shoulde come vnto me and demaunde of me any question touching the lawe of God I thinke I shoulde better satisfie him if I did reade the wordes of the lawe vnto him than if I should make a long tedious discourse of myne owne to litle or no purpose It is the worde it selfe that pearceth and mou th the conscience I speake not this agaynst interpreting of the Scriptures or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. for I know they be both necessary but agaynst such as be enimies to the reading of them The places in the. 56. of Esay and in the eleuenth of zacharie tende to the same purpose they all speake agaynst ignorant foolish slouthfull gouernours and pastours there is nothing in them that condemneth or disaloweth readyng of the Scriptures or reading of Prayers No more is there in the fiftenth of Matthew nor 1. Timo 3. reade the places and you shal soone see with how litle iudgement they be quoted agaynst such ministers
ministers which caused it to bee celebrated when the people returned out of their captiuitie for it appeareth in the booke of Nehemias that the feast of Tabernacles which was commaunded of 8. Chap. the Lorde to be celebrated euery yeare was * This is a manifest vntruth as shall appeare not celebrated from the days of Iosua the sonne of Nun vntill the returne of the people from their captiuitie And yet were there in this space dysiers both iudges and kings both priests and Prophets singularly zealous and learned If therefore the omitting of so necessary a thing so many hundreth yeares by such godly zelous learned persons could not bring any prescription against the truth the lacke of this necessary discipline by the space of 30. yeares through the ouersight of a fewe if they be compared with that multitude ought not to be alleadged to keepe it out of the Church Io. Whitgifte Surely the inequalitie of the persons and great difference betwixt them both in godlynesse zeale learning experience and age though it séeme a small matter too some yet it ought to be well considered for it is well knowne that the firste sorte of men here mentioned did excell in all those forenamed qualities and haue continued in the same euen to the death and the latter sort many of them singular in learning zeale wisedome experience hauing also knowledge of other Churches refourmed more than you howsoeuer it pleaseth you and some of your companions vndutifully to contemne them wherefore as I saide this comparison is something and not so lightly to be estéemed as you would make the reader beléeue For my part I thinke the worse of you bycause you thinke so well of your selues that you dare be so bolde as not onely to compare your selues with them but to preferre your selues before them As for this Humilitie and abasing your selfe in saying that you cōfesse your selfe to be a great deale inferioure to the least of them He that will take paynes but to peruse your booke shall easly vnderstand that you thinke nothing lesse For truly your stile is so bigge and loftie and your tauntes such towards them and others that a man would thinke you not only to haue cast off all modestie but vtterly to haue forgotten all good manners ciuilitie and duetie But it is Rhetoricke common to you with other of your companions as appeareth in diuers places of the first Admonition and in the second throughout the whole which I would wish the reader to consider that he may thereby partly know and discerne your spirit But say you the omitting of these necessarie things ought to be no more preiudice agaynste them c. Surely if you can proue that they haue omitted any thing expressely against the commaundement of God then is it true that you say but if you cannot do so then do you vniustly charge these learned and godly martyrs But what if you haue abused the place in the. 8. Chapter of Nehemias What if you vnderstand it not truely The feast of Tabernacles was not so lōg omitted What if there can be no suche thing gathered of it as you woulde make the reader beléeue Shall I triumph ouer you and say that eyther you haue not read it or you do not vnderstand it or that you willingly and wittingly abuse it or that you receiued it in some notes from others as it pleaseth you to deale with me when no such occasion is offered vnto you I will not so requite you But this only I say that you haue not set downe the true sense of that place For the meaning is not that the feasts of Tabernacles was The true interpretation of the place alleadged out of the 8. of Nehemias not celebrated from the time of Iosua the sonne of Nun vnto that day which was almost a thousand yeares but that it was not celebrated in that manner that is with such solemnitie so great reioycing and gladnesse as the very wordes them selues declare both in the Hebrue text and in the best translations And so dothe Pellicane expounde that place who saith that these words since the time of Iosua the sonne of Nun. c. be spoken Pellican in 8. Nebe in the respect of the greatnesse of the ioy whiche then happened to the people Lyra also expoundeth the same place much after the same sort and presupposeth nothyng lesse than that the feasts were omitted all this time for he affirmeth that they were much more solemnly and with greater cost celebrated in the times of Dauid and Salomon Lyra in 8. Nebe therefore saith he the comparison is secundum quid proportionaliter for I vse hys words bycause in all this time sithence Iosua it is not read that the people were so generallie gathered togither in Hierusalem as we reade in the beginning of this Chapter that they were at this time and againe he saith that it was more for the people newly returned frō captiuitie to celebrate suche a feast with that solemnitie than it was to mightie kings and people being in prosperitie and setled in a kingdome to celebrate the same day with much more cost and solemnitie I might alledge other expositiors to the same effect neyther haue I read any that doth expound that place otherwise The like kind of speach we haue 2. Reg. 23. where it is said That there was no passouer 2. Reg. 23. holden like that which Iosias helde from the dayes of the Iudges that iudged Israell nor in all the days of the kings of Israell and the kings of Iuda whiche is only spoken in respect of the multitude and zeale of the people with the great preparation and not bycause the passouer was not all this time celebrated The like is also vsed 2. Chro. 2. Chro. 30. 26. 30. vers 26. euen so it is in this place for there is no doubt but that the feast of Tabernacles was celebrated both in Dauid and Salomons time and it is manifest that it was celebrated not long before this time as it is in plaine words expressed 1. Esdras 1. Esra cap. 3. vers 4. Ca. 3. vers 4. wherefore I might make much ado at this ouersight of yours or rather wilfull deprauing of the scriptures if I were delighted with that kind of confuting But though my learning be small and that I am ignoraunt both of Logicke and Philosophie and haue read so little in Diuinitie and you so mightie a man in the Scriptures and so profound in all kind of knowledge as you perswade your selfe to be yet you must be content here to be admonished of me that you haue abused this place and that it serueth not for your turne to proue those godly men which suffered martyrdome in Duéene Maries time to haue permitted any thing in this Churche of Englande after it was reformed expressely contrary to the commaundemente and word of God as you vntruly report So many good high priestes in the reygnes
you shall Euseb. Zuinglius find that the Apostles did appoint and ordeyne Iames to be Byshop of Nierusalem But I will not now stand vpon this matter I shal haue more occasion to speake of it hereafter in the meane time this whiche I haue saide is sufficient to satisfie your request for the Apostles time Touching that of Luke that it was done Church by Church if you meane the ordering of ministers by Paule and Barnabas it is answered before where I haue shewed that it maketh againste you if you vnderstande by euery Church those Churches where Paule and Barnabas were togither then do you expound Church by Church well else not But this is not materiall Election of ministers by the people not generall in th 〈◊〉 of Cyprian Now that the electing of ministers by the people was not generall in Cyprians time I proue by Cyprians owne words li. 1. epist. 4. where he speaking of electing by the people saith quod apud nos quoque ferè per prouincias vniuersas tenetur which also is obserued with vs and almost throughout all prouinces c. In that he saith it was almost in euery prouince he playnly signifyeth that there were some prouinces wherein this Cyprian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. manner and forme of electing was not vsed When I say that the consente of the people was required in many places euen to Cyprians time I do not denie but that it was also required after Cyprians time neither do I speake any otherwise in that poynt than Musculus Musculus hath spoken in his common places ti de verbi ministris where he saithe thus haec forma electionis ad Cypriani vsquè tempora in ecclesijs durauit c. This forme of election remayned in the Churches vntill Cyprians time I knowe it was both before and after Cyprians time in many places but that is not the question for it partly is and shall more at large hereafter be declared that it was also otherwise both before and after Cyprians time but our question is whether it ought to be so at all times or no at this time especially in this Church of England You say it appeareth that Cyprian in his 4. epistl of his 1. Booke vseth it not as a thing indifferente c. Surely if Cyprians wordes be well considered you will be founde not The place of 〈◊〉 examined to haue reported truly of him for he with other Bishops answering the 〈◊〉 that was demaunded of them touching Martialis and Basilides whether seeing they were conuicted of heynous crimes they might still enioy their office and minister vnto the Lord first declareth out of Exod. 19. Leui. 21. c. of what integritie and holynesse those ought to be that serue the altar and celebrate diuine sacrifices Likewise they shew that such precepts must be obeyed and héede taken that none be chosen into the ministerie but suche as be blamelesse signifying by the way how greatly that people doth offend that doth communicate with a sinfull priest and consenteth to the vniust and vnlawfull office of him that is placed ouer them shewing out of the Prophet Osee and the booke of numbers what punishment is due vnto them that be contaminated with the sacrifice of a prophane and vnlawfull priest where vpon he bringeth in these words propter quod plebs obseque s praeceptis dominicis deum metuens a peccatore praeposito separare se debet nec se ad sacrilegi sacerdotis sacrificia miscere cum ipsa maximè habeat potestatem vel eligendi dignos sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi Quod ipsum videmus de diuina authoritate discendere vt sacerdos plebe praesente sub omnium oculis deligatur dignus atquè idoneus publico iudicio ac testimonio comprobetur c. For which cause the people obeying the commaundementes of the Lorde and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a wicked gouernoure not to cōmunicate in the sacrifices of a wicked priest for so much as they especially haue authoritie either to choose those priests which be worthy or else to refuse them which are vnwoorthy The whiche thing also we see to proceede of the authoritie of God that the priest should be chosen before the face of all the people being present and that he which is sit and worthy should by the publique iudgement and testimonie be approued as the Lord commaunded Moses in the booke of numbers saying take Aaron thy brother and Eleazer his sonne for Aaron shall be gathered to his fathers and shall dye there God commaunded the priest to be appointed before the whole sinagogue that is he declareth that the ordering of priests ought not to be but sub populi 〈◊〉 is conscientia by the knowledge of the people standing by that the people being present vel detegātur malorum crimina vel bonorum merita praedicentur c. either the faults of euil mē might be bewrayed or the desertes of those whiche are good might be commended and that that ordering might be iust and lawfull which shall be examined by the voices and iudgement of all VVhich thing was afterward obserued according to the rule of God when as Peter spake vnto the people concerning the choosing of a bishop into the place of Iudas Where the words of Cyprian and the other Bishops be plaine that the ordering of ministers ought to be in the presence of the people to the intent they may obiect any thing against them if they can but not that it ought to be by their voyces and election the which the example that he vseth of Eleazer Num. 20. and the words that he reciteth out of the first of the Acts plainly declare for though Eleazer was placed in Aarons roome in the presence of the people yet had they no voyces in hys election No more had they in the election of Matthias though it were in theyr presence That also whiche followeth in the same epistle dothe proue this to be their true meaning for alittle after it is said propter quod diligenter de traditione diuina c. VVherfore it ought diligently to be obserued and holden as proceeding from the tradition of God and the obseruation of the Apostles the which also is reteyned almost thoroughout all prouinces that to the intent orders should be rightly celebrated all the next Byshops of the same prouince should assemble vnto that people to whome a gouernoure is to be appointed and that the Byshop should be chosen in the presence of the people which dothe fully know the life of euery one c. so that Cyprians meaning is to haue the people present at the ordering of ministers that if they know any crime in them they may obiect it if not with their silence allow of the parties for as the law saith ta iturnitas pro consensu habetur silence is taken for a consent And to this purpose serue the places that he vseth Numer 20. Act. 1. and
temper hys sermon or exhortation that it may profyte all and hurte none but suche as do not accordingly receyue it And therefore bothe these propositions are false th a man by preaching cannot profyte such as he knoweth not and that he cannot know them except he be perpetually resident with them Chap. 1. the sixte Diuision T. C. Page 48. Sect. 1. Moreouer as in the law the priests were ready in the temple to answer to al the doubts questions that any of the people should come to aske so the ministers in their seuerall parishes shoulde be ready to dissolue the difficulties that eyther one hathe with another or with himselfe touching the conscience for want whereof the consciences of many after doubtfull and daungerous wrastling with the deuill and wich dispaire are strangled And therevpon some hang or drowne themselues some other putting away all care or conscience of sinning and labouring to haue no sense nor feeling of their sinne close vp the wounde vnhealed which after eyther breaketh out more daungerously or else euery day more and more waxing senselesse and withoute feeling treasure vp vnto themselues the wrath of God against the day of iudgement For although the iudgement of God doth not for the time follow them so hard as them which through terroure of conscience vntaught and vncomforted kill themselues yet their estate is neuer the lesse daungerous therefore but rather more for asmuch as by a longer line of sinne drawne out they also pull vpon themselues a heauier conde nation Which things when they see oftentimes before their eyes that will consider it it is easy to iudge that it commeth to passe a great deale oftner than we can see Io. Whitgifte You do not referre me to any place where I might reade that the priests in the lawe were ready in the temple to answere all the doubts and questions that any of the people shoulde come to aske c. And I do not remember any suche place in the scripture excepte you meane that which is written in the. 17. of Deute verse 9. c. where there is no suche Deute 17. attendance mentioned but only the people are willed to bring their controuersies to the priests and the iudge If you meane the. 12. verse of that Chap. where it is said of the priest that he standeth before the Lord to minister there you haue also missed the quisshion For the meaning of that place is that whosoeuer presumptuously refuseth to harken vnto the Priest so long as the prieste is the true minister of God and pronounceth according to his word shall die c. The priest here had to do in ciuill and iudiciall matters togither with the iudge the priest was but in the chéefe place where iudgement was heard and not in euery particular congregation Wherfore if you would conclude any thing of this place it must be that the Priest must be ioyned with the Iudge and haue to do in ciuill and iudiciall matters and remaine in some chiefe place of the countrie where iudgements are to be heard You can by no meanes hereof conclude that euery particular congregation should haue a Pastor continually remayning with them There is not now any such general ignorance but that there may diuers be found able to answer all such doubts as you speake of sufficiently though the Pastor be absent The scriptures also are publikely red in euery mans house whiche are as Saint Paule saith 2. Ti. 3. profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousenes 2. Tim. 3. that the man of God may be absolute being made perfect in all good works and as Chrysostome calleth them they be an apothecarie his shoppe where euery man may finde In. 3. Coll. remedy for his diseases Moreouer the sufficiencie of his curate may be suche that he shall be aswell able to answere all suche questions as if he himselfe were present Neyther are those cases you put vsuall God be thanked and they oftentimes happen where there is leaste cause to complaine of any absence of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 48. Sect. 1. When as therefore the only preaching of the word of God being continuall is a bond strong enough to hold the Pastor to his flocke then the enquirie of the maners behauioure of his flocke the priuate admonitions and consolations the dissoluing of doubts when any riseth as a three or foure fould cord ought much more to hold hym so that he which shall breake all these things willingly and wittingly cannot easily be thought to breake them as Sampson did his by the strength of God but rather by some other power not of God Io. Whitgifte I would not haue any man to thinke that I take vpon me to maintaine carelesse Care 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be not defended slouthful pastors I speake only of such as be vigilant occupie themselues profitably in the Church visite their seueral flockes teach them to the satisfying both of the parishes and of their owne consciences also such I am persuaded may do as much in al those points here by you mentioned to the commoditie of their flocke being somtimes absent as if they were continually present besides the good they may do to the whole Church generally wherof they are also members and Ministers But I muse with what face you can thus seke to deface true pastors that do good in Some 〈◊〉 delight to face good 〈◊〉 that doe 〈◊〉 good the ues the Church though not so much as you thinke they should do seing you your self and a number mo do no good at all in any place but only range vp downe liue at other mens tables disturbe the Church thinke that you haue done your duties when you haue defaced all other mens doings I am verily persuaded that he which preacheth at his cure but one sermon in a yeare offendeth God lesse than you doe that haue forsaken your calling Chap. 1. the eyght Diuision T. C. Pag. 48. Sect. 1. Besides that S. Paul commaundeth that the pastor should be a paterne or example in al goodnesse 1. Tim. 4. holinesse of life vnto his flocke our sauiour Christ saith that when the she harde hath 〈◊〉 Iohn 10. forth his sheepe he goeth before them but if the Pastor be not amongst his flocke ▪ and haue not his conuersation there they can not follow him If they haue not the example before their eyes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not make the like vnto it Therfore this commaundement also bindeth them to residencie amongst their flockes S. Peter willeth the Pastors of the Churches that they shoulde feede the flockes What flockes Not euery one but those which are committed to their faith or trust or which dependeth vpon them And S. Paule speaking to y e ministers or Bishops of Ephesus willeth them Act. 20. that they should take heede vnto the flockes ouer the which the holy Ghost had made them ouerseers where he
Coemeteria or Churcheyardes if you meane those places that lye next round about the Churches as they came in with the Monke they mighte well haue gone out with him for any profite eyther to the Churche or common wealth by them But if you meane as the Greke worde whiche is there vsed signifieth a fitte place where the bodies of men sleepe and are buri attending the tyme of their rising vp agayne in the iaste and generall daye of iudgement then these Churcheyardes were in the tyme of the Lawe and in the primitiue Churche in all times when there was any outwarde pollicie of the Churche and especially when the Churche had quietnesse and peace that it mighte without daunger * bury their dead in some certayne conuenient Luke 7. place therevnto appoynted whiche was for feare of the infection commonly as it maye Euseb. 7. be gathered in the fielde out of the Towne vnto the whiche vse and custome if it mighte be done lib. 13. cōuemently it were wel that we were restored both because it is more safe for the preseruation of the Townes and Cities in their health as also for that through the superstition which hath beene of beeing buried rather in the Churche than in the Churcheyarde in the Chauncell rather than in the Churche nearer the highe altar than further of the remnauntes whereof are in a greate number of mens heartes yet whiche mighte muche be helped by the bringing in of that custome agayne of burying the dead in some honest place out of the towne thereto appoynted Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you my Author and if you will not credite one witnesse you shall That Denis deuided parishes haue moe Denis himselfe dothe testifie it in an Epistle that he writte to Seuerus a Bishop Damasus sayth the same so dothe Marianus Scotus Platina and others Polidor Uirgill dothe something playnely open the matter in these wordes Pol. Virg. lib. 4. c. 9. de inuent Circiter annum Domini 267. Dionisius tam presbyteris vrbis Romae quà m aliarum gentium templa coemiteria parochias quas dicunt diuisit Praeterea Episcopis dioecaeses distribuit mandauitque vt vnusquisque suis finibus ac limitibus contentus esset Parochias vt hoc demonstremus nostri appellant singula templa Dioecesis eorum territorium certis terminis distinctum c. About the. 267. yere of our Lorde Dionisius deuyded Churches Churcheyardes and Parishes as they call them aswell to the Priestes of Rome as of other nations furthermore he distributed Diocesse vnto Bishops and commaunded that euery one should content himselfe with his owne boūdes and limites our men call Parishes that we may make this playne the seuerall Churches of a Diocesse and their territorie limitted within certayne boūdes c. Wherefore take héede least you cast dust in your owne eyes blind your selfe for this of Denis is not denied of any that I can reade Where hath the Lord deuided nationall Churches into parishes and congregations Why doe you not note the place or where hath S. Paule the thing thoughe not the worde or name or what stories saye that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken to be the same that we call nowe a parishe Héere is muche spoken but nothing proued This Denis was Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lorde 263. whiche peraduenture How parishes are by man distinguished you haue not considered But to put all this matter out of doubte and to open that the ignoraunce whereof maketh you so hotte in this matter there was diuerse congregations and Churches in the Apostles time but yet was there not any limitation of place or certayne compasse of grounde certaynely appoynted for that was lefte to the discretion of man to enlarge or to contracte as it should be thought from time to time moste conuenient and who can once imagine or suppose that Christ or his Apostles did appoynt the limittes of Diocesse or Parishes or who knoweth it not that it is in the power of suche as haue authoritie to enlarge or diminishe Dioces or Parishes as they shall sée it expedient I knowe nothing to the contrarie but that the Parishe whose bondes and limits be but one myle compasse maye be made ten myle compasse and contrarywise It is well sayde of one that distributio gregis nunc extenditur nunc coarctatur pro hominis arbitrio The distribution of a flocke is sometime enlarged and sometyme made lesse according to the iudgement of man And this matter néedeth not to séeme so straunge vnto you for if you had bin so diligent a reader of the booke of Actes and Monumentes as you boast your selfe to be then mighte you haue read there that the Councell of Nice dyd appoynt to certayne Bishops the limittes and boundes of their Prouinces and Dioces But what should I labour in a matter so manyfest If by Coemiteria or Churcheyardes those places be ment that be about the churches where we vse to burie the dead as it is moste lyke they be then heare I no reason at all Why you shoulde in suche maner speake of them excepte you will plucke downe whatsoeuer hathe beforetyme béene appoynted be it neuer so auncient and the vse thereof conuenient and necessarie There is no doubt but by Coemiteria are ment places of buriall whiche because they haue béene as you confesse at all tymes certayne especially in the peace of the Churche it is méete that they shoulde so still remayne And for as muche as the places nowe vsed if they were appoynted by Denis as it is moste lyke are fitly appoynted and moste conueniently in moste places you haue alleadged no cause as yet why they shoulde be remoued but the selfe same cause that maye be in lyke manner vsed to remoue the Churche and whatsoeuer else hathe beene deuised by any man be it otherwyse neuer so necessarie conuenient or comely But I will not followe you in these digressions where you onely spende paper with wordes voyde of proofe If you quote Eusebius 7. Lib. 13. to proue that the place of buriall was in the fieldes there can be no suche thing gathered of his wordes and if you quote him to proue that the worde signifieth a place of buriall you goe about to proue that which no man denieth Of Ministers that can not preache and of giuing licences to preache Tract 6. Some may be Ministers that can not preache Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The tenth Then the Ministers were (*) Philip. 2. 20. 25. Preachers nowe bare readers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. 2. 3. Colos. 1. 7. Luke 9. 2 Your places of Scripture alleadged to proue that Ministers Unapt profes of the Admonition were then Preachers proue not that all were then Preachers The place in the seconde to the Philippians 20. verse is this For I haue no man lyke mynded vvho vvyll faythfully care for your matters And in the. 25. verse But I suppose it
4. The place of (a) The place of Theodoret fal fied ▪ Theodoret cited by M. Bullinger maketh mention of a golden Cope and that vsed by Bishops of Hierusalem and solde by Cyrill a good Bishop whereby he declared sufficiently his misliking of suche garments in the ministerie of the Sacraments In the place the whiche he citeth out of Socrates there is one Sycinius an Nouatian Bishop is sayde to haue worne whyte apparell and therefore is reprehended as for too muche exquisitenesse and finenesse of apparell and the Bishop of Durisine in a letter he wrote alleadgeth the same place agaynst the surplice A man would hardly beleeue that master Bullinger should vse these places to proue a distinction of apparel amongst the Ministers We are not ignorant but that a cloake hath beene vsed of the Ministers in their seruice but that was no seuerall apparell of the Ministers but common to all Christians which with chaunge of their religion chaunged also their apparell as appeareth manifestly in Tertullian de Pailio As for the Petalum that S. Iohn ware I see not howe it can be proued to be like a Bishops iter For the cappe that S. Cyprian gaue the executioner argueth rather that it was the common apparell whiche was customably worne for else it woulde not haue done him so muche good As for his vpper garment whiche he gaue to his Deacon it was a token of his good wyll which he would leaue with him as the practise hath beene seene with vs and proueth nothing that it was any seuerall apparell As for the whytelinnen garment whiche he suffered in it can not seeme straunge vnto vs which haue seene the holy martyrs of the Lorde executed in Smithfielde and other places And it is not to be thoughte that S. Cyprian had so small iudgement that liuing in the tyme of persecution he would by wearing of some notable apparell from the rest as it were betray him selfe into the handes of his ennemies vnlesse all the Christians had done so too for clearer and more open profession of their faythe and greater detestation of the contrarie Religion as Tertullian and the Chrystians in hys tyme dyd by the wearing of a Cloake whiche reason maye bee also alleadged of the Petalum of Saincte Iohn Hom. 6. ad pop Antioch It is true Chrysostome maketh mention of a white garment but not in commendation of it but rather to the contrarie For hee sheweth that the dignitie of their ministerie their sa tie and crowne was in taking heede that none vnmeete were admitted to the Lordes supper not in going about the Churche with a whyte garment And it is easily to be seene by * Scripture fondly alleaged Salomon Eccle. 9. in his Ecclesiastes that to weare a whyte garment was greatly esteemed in the East partes and was ordinarie to those that were in any estimation as the wearing of blacke with vs and therefore was no seuerall apparell for the ministers or for to execute their ministerie in Io. Whitgifte The wordes of Theodoret be these But the tale which they had raysed of Cyrillus T eod lib. 2. cap. 7. did chiefly displease the * 〈◊〉 ▪ Emperour For wheras the most worthy king Constantine had for the honour of the Churche of Hierusalem giuen vnto Macarius Bishop in the same citie a holy garment precious and wrought with golde which he should weare when he ministred the holy Baptisme they reported that Cyrill solde it c. Héere you sée that Theodoret counteth it but a fable that Cyrill should make any suche sale and those that say he solde it declare that it was not for any disalowing of the vesture but for Sozo lib. cap. 25. necessitie of the poore in the time of famine as Sozo lib. 4. cap. 25. testifieth You deale with M. Bullinger as you doe with me that is you peruert his meaning and alleage that out of Socrates that he ment not keepe that in silence which maketh Lib. 6. cap. 〈◊〉 ▪ directly for this purpose Socrates there sheweth howe Sycinius béeing a Nouatian did weare white apparel when he was for the same reproued he answered that it was no where written that Priests shoulde weare blacke apparell and bad them proue by scripture that priests ought to weare blacke apparell Whereby it is playne that ministers in those days did weare black apparel were therby knowne and that Sycinius béeing an heretike refused so to do vsing the same arguments that you do scilicet that it is no where commaunded that Priests should weare suche kinde of vesture Wherfore the story is aptly alleadged by master Bullinger to proue a seuerall kinde of apparell and it insinuateth what manner of men those be that contemne the common order in suche matters and loue to be singular like vnto Sycinius the Nouatian heretike As for S. Iohn his Petalum you heare what these learned men saye who no doubte haue good grounde of their iudgement Neyther woulde Eusebius haue made any mention of it if it had not bin a kinde of apparell whereby S. John was knowne Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 31. The wordes of Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 31. be these Iohn whiche leaned vpon the brest of the Lorde beeing a Priest wore a leafe or thinne plate Whereby it is euident that this apparell was peculiar to S. Iohn in the respecte that he was a Priest That Cyprian his apparell was not vsuall and common for other men to weare it may appeare by this that the names of his apparell be expressed for that whiche he gaue to the executioner is called Birrus that is a thi ne plate and that which he gaue to the Deacon was called Dalmatica a garment with long sléeues as for the white linnen it is not there mentioned as any distinct kinde of apparell The wordes of Chrysostome doe manyfestly declare that then suche kinde of garment was vsed in the administration of the Sacramentes neyther doe his wordes tende any thing at all to the disalowing of it for they be spoken by the way of comparison and negatiues by comparison are not simple negatiues as I tolde you before but by the way of comparison and therefore when Chrysostome sayth that the dignitie of their ministerie c. was in taking heede that none vnmeete were admitted to the Lords supper not in going about the Churche with a white garment he dothe not disallowe going about the Churche in a white garment but he sayth that it is not in comparison of the other so greatly to be regarded If Salomon in that place ment any suche matter yet is it no profe at al for this that T. C. doth 〈◊〉 eage the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fundly 〈◊〉 carelesly you alle e it for there was a great nūber of yeres betwixt Salomon his time and Chrysostomes and all kinde of customes much altered therfore I maruell what you meane to bring in Salomon to proue that the white apparel vsed by ministers of
woulde haue them notwithstanding to absteyne from as from swines flesh Conies c. to the ende that he might haue them seuered as appeareth by S. Paule by a great and high wall from other Nations Eph. 2. And therefore it is verie vnlike that S. Peter woulde frame the ministerie of the Gospel which is no ceremonie but of the substance of the gospel by the example of the heathenish and ydolatrous functions If one had sayde that the Lorde had shapen this common wealth by the paterne of other common wealthes although it had bene most vntrue all other flourishing common wealthes of Athens Lacedemon and Rome borowing their good lawes of the Lordes common wealth yet had it beene more tollerable but to say he framed the ministerie of the Gospell by the Priesthoode of Idolatrie is to fet chastitie out of Sodome and to seeke for heauen in hell And if so be that the Lord had delighted in this Hierarchie he woulde rather haue taken of his owne than borowed of others of his owne Church than of the Synagog of Satan For vnder the law besydes the Leuites there were Priests and aboue them a high Priest Io. Whitgifte God gaue vnto the Israelites a king though other Nations had so in like maner The Israelites had some things like to the Gentiles And he ordeyned degrées of Priests among them to offer vnto him Sacrifices though the Gentiles had the like and what inconuenience could there come by placing Archbyshops which shoulde faythfully preache the worde of God and carefully gouerne the Church of Christ euen in those places where there were Archiflamines who did deface Christianitie and persecute the Christians For by these meanes there could no harme come vnto them as there might haue done to the Israelites by vsing of such things of the Gentiles as he forbad vnto them but the contrarie For this was a meanes to plucke them from all their superstition and Idolatrie Neither is this in any respect a framing of the ministerie of the Gospell by the examples of Idolatrous heathnish functions Except you will say also that bycause the Gentiles had Flamines and the Christians had Bishops therefore the Christian Bishops were framed according to the example of the Gentiles Flamines If you cannot say so truely in Bishops neyther can you iustly affirme it of Archbishops for the reason is all one Do you thinke this to be a good collection where in the Popes time there was a Massing priest now is there placed a Minister of the Gospell Ergo the ministerie of the Gospell is framed according to the example of Massing priests And yet thus do you conclude that bycause there are nowadays Archbishops where before there were Archiflamines therfore the ministerie of the Gospell is framed according to the heathnish and ydolatrous functions Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 68. Sect. 1. And to say that Peter appoynted Archbishops and Bishops * by the example of Idolaters No man hat sayde so Esay 2. is after a sort to make the law to come out of Egypt or Babilon and not out of Sion or Ierusalem as the Prophete sayth Io. Whitgifte Neyther Clement in that Epistle nor Polidore in that booke nor Gratian dist 80. sayth that Peter appoynted Archbyshops and byshops by the example of Idolaters but this onely they say that in those Cities where there were before Archiflamines there were placed Archbyshops and where th re were Flamines there byshops There is greate difference betwixt their kinde of speach and yours Howsoeuer the authors please you or displease you yet report their w rdes truly M. Foxe Tom. 1. Pag. 14. is of this iudgement that where before there were Archiflamines c. there were placed Patriarches c. His woordes be these Thus it is made playne how the M. Foxe tom 1. Pag. 14. byshop of the firste seate or firste byshop or Primate is none other but he which then was called Patriarche and belonged not onely to the Churche of Rome but to all such cities and places whereas before among the Gentiles were Primiflamines c. Dist. 80. cap. rbes loca in illis Hitherto M. Foxe Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 68. Sect. 1. 2. 3. You say after that Iames was an Archbyshop if he were he was the fyrst and placed ouer the Iewes And although S. Peter might to gayne the Gent es be c ntent to vse their dolatrous functions with a little chaunge of their names yet there is none so madde to thinke that he woulde translate any such function from the Gentiles to the Iewes which were neuer before accustomed with any such Flamines or Archiflamines And this I dare generally and at once say against Math. 5. 10. 9. you and your Element that the Lorde translated diuerse things out of the Lawe into the Gospell as the Presbetery or eldership excommunication and the office of Deacons as it is thought for that the Sadducees of whom so often mention is made in the gospell are thought to haue had that office to prouide for the poore for those that knowe the Hebrue tong do vnderstande that Tsadi im 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Tsidkah do not onely signifie Iustices and iuste menne but also almes and almesmen I say these and others more translated from the lawe vnto the gospell but neyther you nor your Clement shall euer be 〈◊〉 to hew that the Lord euer translated any thing from Gentelisme into the gospell Wee reade in the Actes that all the Gentiles were commaunded to conforme themselues vnto Act. 15. the Iewes in the ab ayning from bloud and strangled meate for a tyme but we can n er finde that the Iewes were commaunded to conforme themselues to the Gentiles in their 〈◊〉 the reason whereof is bycause the one was sometyme the lawe of God and therefore he that had conscience in it was to be borne with and the other came from menne and out of their forge which the L rd would neuer g ue so much honor vnto as to make other men by any meanes subiect vnto them Io. Whitgifte If you had not learned that poynt of Sophistrie which is called Petitio princip j whereof I haue so o tentimes told you without doubt you had lacked much matter and your booke would haue ben very thinne For all this adoe in this place is nothing but discanting vpon a false playne song The offices of an Archbishop and Byshop are no Idolatrous functions but Christian and méete both for Iewe and Gentile conuerted vnto Christ neyther are they translated from the Gentiles but grounded vpō the woorde of God practised in the Apostles time approued by the best councells as is declared in the answere to the Admonition and shall be more amplie hereafter occasion being offered Wherefore all this that you haue here sayde the ground being taken away serueth for no purpose Your coniecture of the Deaconship to be taken from the
authorem vniuersorum Dominum Episcopum autem vt Sacerdotum Principem imagi em Dei ferentem Dei quidem per Principatum Christi verò per Sacerdotium Honor God as the author and Lorde of all thinges and a Bishop as the chiefe of Priestes bearing the Image of God of God bicause of his superioritie of Christ by reason of his Priesthoode And a little after Let laye men be subiecte to Deacons Deacons to Priests and Priestes to Bishops the Bishop to Christ. And agayne Let no man doe any thing vvhiche perteyneth to the Churche vvithout the consente of the Bishop And agayn He that attēpteth to do any thing vvithout the Bishop breaketh peace and confoundeth good order The like saying he hath in his Epistle ad Magnesianos These three Epistles doth Eusebius make mention of Lib. 3. cap. 35. 36. and Hiero. de viris illustribus T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the Admonition for wante of Logike for you vtter great skill your selfe in writing whiche keepe no order but confounde your Reader in that thing which euen the common Logike of the countrey which is reason might haue directed you in for what a confusion of times is this to beginne with Cyprian and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome and after to the Scripture and backe agayne to Ignatius that was before Cyprian which tymes are ill disposed of you and that in a matter wherin it stoode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes Io. Whitgifte Be patient a whyle the matter is not great the Authors be knowne and the The order ob serued in placing the authorities in y e answere antiquitie of them my mynde is of the matter and there is reason why I should thus place them Cyprian telleth the necessitie of suche superioritie and so dothe Chrysostome Hierome the cause and the originall Paule Timothie and Titus be examples hereof Ignatius and the rest are brought in as witnesses of the continuance of such offices and superioritie in the Churche euen from the Apostles Now first to proue the name of these offices not to be Antichristian then to shew the necessitie of the offices thirdly the cause and last of all to declare the vse of the same to haue bene in the Churche euen from S. Paules time to this houre is to kéepe a better order than you shall be able to disorder with all the Logike Rhetorike and hote Eloquence you haue Chap. 3. the. 61. Diuision T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian his place for when he sayeth the Bishop hath rule ouer all he meaneth no more all in the prouince than in all the world but meaneth that flocke and congregation whereof he is Bishop or minister And when be calleth him Prince of the priests although the title be to excessiue and big condemned by Cyprian and the councel of Carthage yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocesse as we take it or of the prouince than he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world but he meaneth those fellow ministers and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particular Church and congregation whereof he is a Bishop as the great churches haue for the most part both Elders which gouerne only and ministers also to ayde one an other and the principalitie that he which they called the Byshop had ouer the rest hath bene before at large declared Io. Whitgifte You very lightly shake of Ignatius wordes but they haue more pyth in them if it please you better to consider of them For he maketh degrées of ministers and the Bishop to be the chiefe he placeth Deacons vnder Priests and Priests vnder Bishops so that he giueth to the Bishop superioritie and gouernment ouer both Priests and Deacons which is the grounde of this cause and it being graunted as it muste néedes neyther can this authoritie of Ignatius be auoyded Aerius Heresie falleth and so doth your whole assertion What is ment by Prince of Priests Ignatius himselfe declareth saying Obtinens principatum potestatem supra omnes hauing chieftie and power ouer all How this name may be wel vsed I haue shewed before where I haue also declared the meaning of Cyprians woordes vttered in the hereticall Councell of Carthage and therefore not coumpted in the number of those Councels Chap. 3. the. 62. Diuision T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 1. 2. But M. Doctor doth not remember that whylest he thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the Bishop he ouerthroweth his Archbyshop quite and cleane For Ignatius will haue none aboue the Bishop but Christ and he will haue an Archbishop I see a man cannot well serue two masters but eyther he must displease the one and please the other or by pleasing of one offend the other For M. Doctor would fayne please and vphold both and yet his proo es are such that euery proppe that he setteth vnder one is an axe to strike at the other Io. Whitgifte I remember it very well and I know that an Archbishop is a Bishop and that therfore there may be superioritie among Bishops and yet nothing detracted from the woordes of Ignatius I know likewise that as well the one as the other is cōdemned by you and I am well assured that the proofe of the one is the proofe of the other and therfore M. Doctor may well serue two masters but they be such as be not onely not contrary one to the other but so néerely linked and ioyned togither that what soeuer pleaseth the one doth also please the other M. Doctors proppes and proofes are such as M. T. C. is compelled to vse railing flouting in steade of answering which is a shift but how honest and Christian let the world iudge Chap. 3. the. 63. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. 1. Iustinus Martyr one of the most auncient writers of the Greekes Iustine Martyr in his second Apologie ad Antoninum Pium alloweth this superioritie calleth him that bare rule ouer the other ministers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 2. But that M. Doctor deliteth alwayes where he might fetch at the fountayne to be raking in ditches he needed not to haue gone to Iustine Martyr for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when as S. Paule calleth 1. Tim. 5 ▪ the ministers and Elders by this title And if this place of Iustine make for an Archbishop then in steade of an Archbishop in euery prouince we shall haue one in euery congregation For Iustine declareth there the leyturgie or manner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see whether there be any resemblance in the world betweene him and an Archbishop For he placeth his office to be in
Priests and euites And I maruell that you wil denie this especially seing that you would de vs to the ciu ll law of Moses wherof this is a portion You adde that by all these princes ouer euerye tribe and fainilie as by the prince of the whole land God did as it were c. all this maketh nothing against our 〈◊〉 xcept y u will also take away the Prince of the whole land ▪ As this order among the Iewes was obserued in al tribes so is it now in al Prouinces and Diocesse This is but slender 〈◊〉 ou bring and y t not to the purpose for the A swere speaketh of na es and you driue it to offices Indeede you almost in no place reason ad Idem which is a maniiest argumente that you are but a shiftyng cauiller Chap. 4. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 13. Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoin ment of their gouernours were done of Dauid by the * aduise 2. Chro. 19. of the Prophets Gad and Nathan which receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whyche they deliuered vnto Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that Archbishops and Archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then this allegation hath some force but now being not only not 〈◊〉 but also as I haue shewed forbydden euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the Archbyshop and Archdeacon For if Dauid beyng suche a notable personage and as it were an Angell of God durste not take vpon him to bring into the Church any orders or pollicies not onely not againste the worde of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shal dare be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the chiefe office of the Church and to alter the pollicie that God hath appointed by his seruantes the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You runne away with the matter as though all were cleare when as it is not so You affirme y t Dauid did apoint these orders pollicies touching y e distribution of the offices of the leuites Priests c. by the eduise of Gad and Nathan the prophets of God And for proof hereof you quote in the margent 2. Chron. 19. where there is not one word for your purpose or signifying any suche thing In déed in the 2. chro 29. there is affirmed the lyke thing But my L. of Sarisburie hath answered you that such negatiue reasons are very weake And if you wil denie it to be a negatiue reason from authoritie yet can you not denie but that it is as féeble an argument as almost can be For what if Dauid did appoynt these orders touching the distribution of the offices of the leuites priests c. doth it therfore follow that the church at no tyme may appointe suche offices as shall be thought méete for the gouernment of it according to the tyme places and persons where haue you learned of a singular example to make a generall rule or to frame an argumente ex solis particularibus In the. 2. Chro. 19. which you haue quoted in the margent there is a not able place Scripture alleaged against himselfe against you for there expresse mention is made that Iehosaphat set in Ierusalem of the Leuites and of the Priests c. for the iudgemente and cause of the Lorde and made Amariah the Priest chiefe ouer them neyther were they Iudges for the citie 2. Chron. 19. of Ierusalem onely but for the whole countrey And yet we reade not of any commaundement vers 8. that Iehosaphat had so to do Chap. 4. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93 Sect. 1. And where the Bishop sayth it is knowne and confessed that ther wanted many things to the persection of the Churche of the Iewes truly I doe not knowe nor can not consesse that that Churche wanted (*) This is directly contrary to your selfe any thing to the perfection of that estate which the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauioure Christ. And if there were any thing wanting it was not for wante of good lawes and pollicies whereof the question is but for wante of due execution of them which we speake not of Io. Whitgifte Conueniet nulli c. Nowe can he agrée with anye other man that dothe not agree with him selfe For before after you haue recyted diuers thinges lefte to the T. C. contrarie to himself order of that Churche of the Iewes for the whiche they had no expresse worde You saye that you wyll offer for one that I bring that we haue lefte to the order of the Pag. 22. Sec. 2. Churche to shewe that they had twenty whyche were vndecided by the expresse word of God And heere you saye that it wanted nothing to the perfection of that estate how you wyll reconcile your selfe I knowe not or whether it be your pleasure not to respecte your owne credite so that you may séeme to discredite that whyche that notable Byshop hathe spoken but that whyche I haue alleadged of Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 19. dothe manifestly iustifye my Lord of Sarisburies saying and condemneth youres For there it is to be séene that in matters of gouernment orders were appoynted which neyther were commaunded by any expresse commaundemente of God neyther yet expressed in the worde of God But of thys matter I haue spoken before Chap. 4 the. 14. Diuision The third Reason VVhere the substance of anything is most perfite there the accidents be most perfite but Tertia ratio the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Religion was most perfit in the primitiue Churche and yet there was then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo. The Ansvvere of the Byshop First this 〈◊〉 is not proued for it may vvell be doubted vvhether the Eius solutio ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance hath euermore most porfit accidentes And againe the substance of Religion is the same novve that it vvas then the difference if there be any standeth in accidentes and not in substance Therefore thys 〈◊〉 of substance and accidentes vvas not needefull In the primitiue Church God raised vp Apostles and Prophets and gaue them povver ex as the gifte of tongues the gift of healing the gifte of gouernment c. In place vvher of he hath novv giuen Vniuersities Scholes Byshops 〈◊〉 shops c. But you say there vvas then no Archbyshop So may you say that before king Saul there vvas no king in Israel So may you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of late times there vvas neither Duke nor Earle in England So may you say 〈◊〉 the primitiue Church there was neither Deane nor person 〈◊〉 prebendarie And yet novv both in Ecclesiasticall and ciuill go 〈◊〉 these are thought necessarie Last of all vvhere you say there was no And by shop in the primitiue Church it is vvritten by many that S. Paul
(b) These examples proue not the purpose Noah which was a preacher vnto the olde worlde of the will of God was ordeyned also of God to make the Arke whiche was a Sacramente and seale of his preachyng touchyng the destruction of the worlde And (b) These examples proue not the purpose Abraham whom the Lorde would haue to be the Doctour of his churche whiche was then in his familie was also commaunded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision vnto his familie The (b) These examples proue not the purpose Priestes and Leuites whiche were appoynted to teache the people were also appoynted to sacrifice and to minister other sacramentes in the Church Lykewise the same Prophets which God stirred vp to preach he also ordeyned to confirme the same by signes Sacraments The (b) These examples proue not the purpose same may be also drawne throughout the new Testament as vnto euery of the twelue and afterwarde to the seuentie power was giuen bothe to preache the Gospell and also to confirme wyth signes and miracles whiche were seales of their Doctrine And (b) These examples proue not the purpose Sainct Paule by the commaundement that our Sauiour Christe gaue hym to preache vndertooke also to baptise although there were no expresse woordes that licenced him therevnto for hee knewe right well that it was the perpetuall ordinaunce of God that the same shoulde bee the ministers of the worde and Sacramentes Wherevpon it followeth that forasmuche as women maye not prcache the Gospell no not by the lawes of the realine that they ought not to minister Baptisme Io. Whitgifte My reason alleadged in my Answere to the Admonition why this place doth not make any necessarie conclusion agaynst the baptizyng by Women is not answered but there is a newe collection made of the same place whyche is of as great force as the other for you myght as well conclude thus Ergo Pastors maye not preache bycause Pastours bée not Apostles I speake of the Argumente not of the thyng For I woulde not haue the Scriptures abused to confirme no not a truthe least it make men the bolder to wreast them at their pleasure and for the confirming of errour M. Zuinglius in hys booke De Baptisme sayth that Christe did Zuinglius not in this place of Mathewe institute baptisme nor prescribe eyther tyme place or any other circumstance perteyning to the same I haue proued before that the administration of the Sacraments may bée committed to some to whome the publike preachyng of the worde is not committed and youre examples here alleadged doe not proue the contrarie excepte you wyll Tract 9. ca. 1. sect 15. haue vs to grounde poyntes of doctrine vppon bare examples whych if we should doe many inconueniences would followe yea euen baptizyng by women whiche you so greately mislyke A facto ad ius or à non facto ad non ius bée the vsuall reasons of the Anabaptistes but of no force The example of Noah helpeth you not except you will either allegorie or proue y t the minister of the worde may make Sacramēts bicause Noah made the Arke 〈◊〉 Arke can not be proprely termed a sacrament in y t signification y t ours be for it had no promise of eternal life annexed vnto it neither was it any seale of gods promise but a meanes to saue Noah and his family from perishing by the waters and a tipe and figure of the Church of Christ as you haue before confessed Pag. 63. Sect. 1 Your examples which follow although some of them be very vnapt for miracles be no sacraments neyther yet euery kind of signes and wonders may as examples T. C. omitting the purpose proueth that which is not denied shewe that the administration of the sacramentes was committed to suche as were preachers of the word But they cannot proue that it was onely committed vnto them and to no other It is not required of you to proue whither he that maye preach may also administer the sacraments but whither it be of necessitie that none shoulde be admitted to minister the sacraments except the same also be admitted to preach the contrary whereof I haue shewed before Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 80. Sect. 1. The second place you do alleadge is 1. Cor. 14. where Paule sayth it is a shame for Women to speake in the congregation Paule saith not it is a shame for women to speake at home in priuate houses for women may instruct their families yea and they may speake also in the Congregation in tyme of necessitie if there be none else there that can or wyll preache Chryste and hereof we haue examples T. C. Pag. 110. Lin. 13. Sect. 1. But M. Doctor riseth vp and saith that a woman in time of necessitie and where there is none other that eyther can or will preache maye preache the Gospell in the Church This is straunge doctrine and such as strengtheneth the Anabaptists hands and sauoureth stronger that ways than any one thing in all the Admonition which is so often condemned of Anabaptisme His first reason to proue it is that there are examples thereof When we alleadge the examples (a) How vayne this bragge is hath bin shewed Tract 3. of all the churches of the Apostles times to proue the election of the minister by the Churche and in other cases which are generall examples approued and executed by the Apostles contrary to no commaundement nor institution of God yea and as hath bin proued according to the commaundement of God M. Doctor gyueth vs our answer in a worde that examples proue not now that the question is to make good womens preaching in the Church examples I will not say of all churches but of no one Church only of a few singular persons not according to the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. commaundement of the word of God but cleane contrary to the prescript word of God I say now examples and such singular examples are good proofes and strong arguments Io. Whitgifte In what poynt doth he strengthen the Anabaptists If you coulde haue told I trust it should not haue bin kept in silence I haue charged the Authors of the Admonition with nothing but I haue shewed my author for it deale you with me in like manner and spare not otherwise your wordes do but sauoure choler Examples withoute What force is in exāples preceptes make no generall or necessary rule but they sometimes declare what was done and what may be done extraordinarily vpon like occasion and the same circumstances if they be commendable examples Women were the first that preached Christes resurrection A woman was the Math. 28. first that preached Christ in Samaria Io. 4. and yet vndoutedly none of these dyd Io. 20. contrary to the prescript word of God Women may not speake ordinarily in the Io. 4. congregation nor chalenge any suche function vnto themselues but vpon
of other mens behauiour are for the most part negligent and forgetfull of their owne duties So that it is necessary for euery man to examine himselfe and not so necessary for one man to examine another But what I thinke of this kynde of examining by other I haue declared in my Answer to the Admonition Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. Then he saith he is sure there is neither commaundement nor example in all the scripture In A place of scripture fondly applyed the second booke of the Chronicles he might haue read that the Leuites were there commaunded 2. Chro. 35 to prepare the people vnto the receiuing of the passouer in place whereof we haue the Lords supper Now examination being a part of the preparation it followeth that there is commaundement of examination Io. Whitgifte You bewray the weakenesse of your cause to much when you are constrayned to The Replyer applyeth a ceremoniall precept to the receiuing of the communion runne so farre for a precept to proue the examination of communicants to be commaunded and especially when you are compelled for want of other to bring out ceremoniall precepts long ago abrogated This boldnes of yours is so by custome confirmed that now without blushing it dare abuse any scripture yea euen touching the Ceremonies of the law to proue any deuise of your owne and why may not the Papistes as well vse the same for their auricular confession But what if that commaundement signify no such thing from whence then will His precept proueth not his purpose you fetch your proofe the wordes of Iosiah to the Leuites in the. 2. Chro. 35. vers 6. be these So kill the passouer and sanctify your selues and prepare your brethren that they may do according to the word of the Lord by the hand of Moses What one word of examining other is there in this commaundement These words Prepare your brethren Looke the marginal note in the Geneua Bible c. are thus expounded by learned interpreters Exhort your brethren to examin thēselues that they may be ready to eate the passouer according to the word of the Lorde by the hand of Moses And manifest it is that neyther the Priests nor the Leuites dyd did euer vse any suche kinde of examination before the eating of the Passouer as you woulde insinuate and therfore as yet you are vtterly destitute of a commaundemente Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. And how holdeth (a) This is an ar ument of your owne framing this argument S. Paule commandeth that euery man should proue him self ergo there is no commaundement that the ministers shold proue and examine them so I may say that euery man is a spirituall king to gouerne himself therfore he may not be gouerned by others The authors of the Admonition do not meane that euery one should be examined as those whose vnderstanding in the Gospell is well knowne or whych doe examine themselues and so they interprete themselues in the. 108. page Io. Whitgifte Surely it holdeth as the moste parte of your argumentes do that is loosely for it is your reason it is not myne If I haue framed any such argument it will appeare in my Answere But this is your manner peuishly to peruert my wordes and therfore haue you concealed my booke least your Reader should espie you as he must needes do if he hath any iudgement Neyther doe I mislyke that there should be examination of the communicantes Examination of communicants 〈◊〉 disallowed as I haue said in my Answere but I mislyke this wrangling at the administratiō of the sacraments vsed in this church without cause neither would I haue this kinde of examination counted as necessarie seing it is no where cōmanded neither yet any example of it either in the Apostolicall or primitiue Church In what words or how do the Authors of the Admonition interpret themselues pag. 108 or how do they knowe that men do not examine themselues Chap. 1. the fifth Diuision Admonition The fifth Then they ministred with common (a) Act. 2. 46. Act. 20. 7. vsual bread now with water cakes brought in by Pope Alexander being in forme fashion and substance like their god of the altar Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 97. Sect. 2. Pag. 98. Sect. 1. 2. The place you alleage Act. 2. which is this And they continued Of bread vsed in the cōmumon dayly with one accord in the temple breaking bread at home did eate their meate together vvith gladnesse and singlenesse of heart maketh as much for your purpose as it maketh for the Papistes halfe Communion for they alleadge it to proue that the Supper may be ministred with bread only But learned interpreters especially M. Caluine denye this place to be mente of the ministration of the supper how soeuer it is vnderstanded it doth not necessarily proue that the Sacrament was then ministred in common and vsuall breade for there is no mention made of the kinde of breade Yf any thynke better of one kynde of breade than of an other in the ministration of the Sacramente it is theyr erroure and derogateth nothyng from the order of administration M. Caluin in his Institutions cap. 19. sect 72. touchyng this ma ter writeth on this sorte Caeterùm in manum accipiant fideles necne inter se diuidant an singuli quod sibi datum fuerit edant calicem in diaconi manu reponant an proximo tradant Caluins opinion of y e kind breade panis sit fermentatus an azymus vinum rubrum an album nihil refert haec indifferentia sunt in ecclesiae libertate posita But vvhether the faythfull take it in their handes or no vvhether they deuide it among them selues or euerye one eate that vvhiche is giuen vnto them vvhether they gyue the cuppe to the Deacon or deliuer it to hym that is nexte vvhether the breade be leauened or vnleuened the vvyne redde or vvhyte it makes no matter These be indifferente thyngs and put in the libertie of the Churche Alexander lyued Anno. III. and was a good and godlie Bishop it Alexanders institution is reported in some writers that he appoynted vnleauened breade to be vsed in the Euchariste bycause that Chryste hymselfe vsed the same accordyng to the lawe written Exod. 12. Deuteron 16. But that he broughte in wafer cakes or appoynted any certayne forme of breade you can not proue neyther dothe any credible authour wryte it Io. Whitgifte To all this there is not one word answered Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 97. Sect. 2. Pag. 98. Sect. 1. The truth is that it skils not what kynde of bread is vsed leuened or vnleuened so it be bread although it were to be wished for the auoydyng of superstition that common and vsuall breade were vsed Usual bread and also that the forme were altered and the quantitie
opiniō touching Musculus the authoritie of y e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly but plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones and we call them Papistes will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion than to be the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a magistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point than they haue well deserued neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke of the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate one thing I praye you marke that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by y e Rep r. practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes in my (*) Pag. 2. sect 2. Answere to the Admonition for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell for attributing as they saye to much to the ciuill magistrate The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place But I will nowe come to his argumentes The. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 154 Sect 1. This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses hee shall see that there were a You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord which were priests Leuites and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongest which were the Leuites which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche were sette ouer ciuill causes being therfore moste fitte for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the polylike lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please him that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ciuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and churche matters perteyned vnto diuers persons whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth (*) that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte Yes I bothe knowe this distinction and haue hearde of it for I haue redde it The 〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction reasons with the Papistes in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it For Saunders in his booke before named dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do that is to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders his woordes be these Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the Saunders li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57. powers sayde to the Leuites and Priestes Amarias the Prieste and your Bishop shall gouerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God But Zabadias c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop other somethinges to the office of a Kinge The same place also dothe Harding vse to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons greate ado there is agaynst me bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes but of Traytours to the same ende with them that is agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned bothe by preaching and by burning But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader I will in fewe The place of the Replier agaynst himselfe woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you for who placed those Leuites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do or who gaue to them that authoritie did not Iehosaphat the texte is playne Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth but for better execution of them the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Prieste the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes bothe Ecclesiasticall and Temporall committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare determine them For if this reason be good the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them then is this as good hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters bycause she hath committed the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons had Leuites being Ecclesiasticall persons had to d in ciuill matters to do in Ciuill matters as the woordes of the texte verse 11. moste manifestly declare as for your shifte of the number of them beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche it is but your owne and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs as the Papistes do that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacramentes and to preache the woorde if you do not this place can by no meanes serue your turne The. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb.
howsoeuer long custome hath caused it to seeme yet in deede it is a very great and vntollerable confusion which may be the easelyer vnderstanded if so be we set before our eyes how vncomely and disordered it is in the like or rather in the very same case For let vs imaginethe Ma or or Bayliue of a towne or the King or Emperour of the lande to come into the pulpit and make a sermon afterwarde to minister the sacraments and from the Churche to goe with the scepter in his hande vnto the place of iudgement who would not be amased to see this and wonder at it as at a s aūge and monstrous light assuredly the self same deformitie it is when as the minister of the word is made a Iustice of peace of Quorum a Commissioner an Earle or any suche like to whom the iudgement of matters perteyning to the court of the ciuill Magistrate is committed especially seeing there are God be raysed of the Nobilitie and Gentrie of this realme that are able to discharge these offices much better than those ecclesiasticall persons to whome they are committed Io. Whitgifte The Bishop of Rome doth chalenge vnto him selfe the whole power and authoritie The ciuill iurisdiction that the Pope ay meth not lyke to that in vse in this church of the ciuill Magistrate and that as he sayth by the word of God He baasteth that temporall Princes haue their authoritie from him and that it is in his power bothe to displace and place them This we vtterly and most iustly condemne but that iurisdiction ciuill that we allowe in ecclesiasticall persons is not the whole power of the ciuill Magistrate but onely so muche as may helpe to the good gouernment of the Churche and the suppression of vice Neyther doe we chalenge it as due but receyue it from the ciuill Magistrate as conuenient and execute it by his authoritie not by our owne This you could not but vnderstande if you had not bin disposed to qua il You say t is an vntollerable confusion c. but this is a Popish surmise and the example vsed craftily to verifie the same for the Papists doe imagine or at the 〈◊〉 doe maliciously spread abrode that by giuing to the Prince chiefe authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters we also giue vnto hir power to minister the sacramentes and to preache the worde In like maner you would insinuate vnto the Reader that by allowing ciuill functions in ecclesiasticall persons we also allowe them to execute all kinde of ciuill functions which is spoken of you as well to deface the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in matters ecclesiasticall as it is to improue ciuill offices in ecclesiasticall persons It is neyther confusion nor vncomelynesse to come from the pulpit and administration of the Sacraments to the punishment and correction of vice and wickednesse Neyther is it any monstruous or straunge sight for an ecclesiasticall person to execute that kinde of discipline agaynst offendours which by lawfull authoritie is established in the Church whether it be by béeing Iustice of peace and Quorum or a Comm issioner or any other suche like office and function But remember I pray you what you sayd before in the treatise of Seni rs you T. C. muste 〈◊〉 ther di sent from Beza or graunt the controuersie Tract 17. cap. diuis there set it downe that they are ecclesiasticall persons and yet M. Beza as I haue there declared sayth that noble men and Princes maye be of the 〈◊〉 wherfore eyther may ciuill and ecclesiasticall offices méete togither in eccles icall persons whiche you denie or else can not noble men and Princes be of your Seigniorie as M. Beza affirmeth or if they be of your 〈◊〉 they must cast off their Baronries Earldomes and ciuill dominions whiche I am sure they wyll not or else to conclude your assertion is straunge and your S lorie con used I doubt not but that many of the Nobilitie and Gen rie of this Realme are more fitte for these things than ecclesiasticall men are neyther can I be persuaded but that they consider how expedient it is notwithstanding that such functions be committed to some of the cleargie and I am well assured that they can not but easily espie the deformitie confusion that your platforme would bring to this Monarchie Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 168. Lin. 2. And if so be that there fall out any question at any time whyche is to be decyded by the worde of God and wherein the aduyse of the minister is needefull there the ministers helpe maye and Esra 9. ought to be required For thereof we haue not onely an example in (*) This place maketh agaynst your selfe Esra where the Princes Deut. 19. in a matter of difficultie came and asked the counsell of Esra but we haue a playne commaundement in Moses by the Lorde who commaunded that the cause of periurie shoulde be heard before the Lorde in the Sanctuary at the hearing whereof the highe Priest should be present by which commaundemente the Lorde dothe not by bringing thys cause into the Sanctuar e declare that the iudgement thereof dyd apperteyne vnto the ecclesiasticall courte but bicause it beeing a matter whiche touched the glory of God very expressely he would haue the Princes whiche were Iudges there to be the nearer touched and the deepelyer affected wyth the glory of God whereof they sau e the sacrament before their eyes neyther is the high Priest commaunded to be present to this ende ▪ that he should sit as iudge of that matter but that he might dissolue the difficulties if any rose of the vnderstanding of the lawe and that he might pricke forwarde and stirre vp by admonition ▪ the princes to whome the iudgement apperteyned if so be he should see them colde and slacke to reuenge the iniuried done vnto the Lorde Which thing may the better appeare in that the handling of the matter is there appoynted not vnto the priests but vnto the Iudges or princes onely and so lykewyse of matrimonie and diuorse although the iudgement thereof apperteyne vnto the ciuill Magistrate yet the minister if there be any difficultie in knowing when it is a lawfull contract and when the diuorse is lawfull may and ought to be consulted with Thus may the common wealth and Churche enioy bothe the wisdome and searning which is in the minister things may be done in that order whych God hath appoynted without suche confounding and iumbling of offices and iurisdictions togither Io. Whitgifte You woulde not haue a minister to enioy any ciuill office and yet would you not A greater inrisdiction sought in disprouing the lesse haue the ciuill Magistrate to determine any thing in matters of weyght without the aduise and counsell of the minister that is the Minister must prescribe vnto the ciuill Magistrate what he should doe in all weyghtie and doubtfull cau es This is your drifte in this
place so farre as I can gather else I knowe not to what purpose you should spende so many words for they conclude nothing agaynst the cause but with it rather In déede I haue heard say that in some Churches which some of you haue gone about to reforme the minister was all in all and in all affayres his aduise and consent was had else nothing could be done Whiche authoritie surely passeth all the ciuill turisdiction that I knowe any man hath or desireth in this Church But you may intermeddle in the offices of Maiors Bayliues Iustices of peace in deede haue an oare in euery mans boate and yet nothing hinder your Pastoral office such is the excellencie of your wit and giftes aboue other men that the same thing may be lawfull in you a little portion wherof may not be permitted to others You make a fayre glosse vpon the. 19. of Deuteronomie but howe aptly the Reader may consider if he marke the place well the words of the text be these If a false Deut. 19. witnesse rise vp agaynst a man to accuse him of trespasse then bothe the men that striue togither shall stande before the Lorde euen before the Priests and the Iudges whiche shall be in those dayes and the Iudges shall make diligent inquisition c. First heere is no word of y e Sanctuarie for this that is sayd before the Lord M. Caluin in his harmonie doth interprete on this sorte Coram leboua i. corā sacerdotibus iudicibus qui fuerunt in diebus illis Before Iehoua that is before the Priests and Iudges which were in those dayes And in deede God is sayde to be there present where his true ministers are assembled wherfore your descanting of the Sanctuarie ▪ is without any ground Moreouer it dothe not appeare by any thing in this place but that the Priest had as muche to doe in the matter as the iudge had wherefore this place can not serue your turae in any respect The place in the. 9. of Esoras maketh altogither agaynst you for the rulers came The Replyer ouerthroweth his owne cause to complayne vnto Esoras that the people had married with the Gentiles and Esdras tooke vpon him as one hauing authoritie to reforme it and to separate them from their wyues as it euidently appeareth in the tenth chapter and. 4. and. 5. verse For certayne of them came vnto Esoras and spake vnto him in this maner Aryse for the matter belongeth vnto thee c. It appeareth that you haue very smal care what you alleage so it may seeme to be something You adde in the ende and say and so likewyse of matrimonie and diuorse c. But the Reader muste take heede that he imagine not this assertion of yours to be conteyned in any of these two places quoted by you It is but your owne bare affirmation you alleage no authoritie for it Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 168. in the midst ▪ For although Aristotles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Platoes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is instruments seruing to two purposes be lawfull in offices of the common wealth where things are more free and left in greater libertie to be ordered at the iudgement and aduise of men especially considering that vpon the diuersitie of the formes of common wealthes varietie of regiment may spring yet in the Church of God where things are brought to a strayghter rule which is but one vniforme ▪ the same may not be suffered And yet euen those common wealth Philosophers whiche doe licence vpon occasion that two offices may meete in one man holde that it is best and conuenientest that euery one should haue a particular charge For Aristotle sayth it is moste agreable to nature that Not Hercules himselfe against tvvo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is one instrumēt to one vse And Plato vseth the prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 agaynst those whych will take vpon them diuers vocations and not content them selues with one and they make the meeting of many functions in one man to be a remedie only in extreme neede and pouertie of able men Io. Whitgifte These be but words onely conteyning no sounde proofes and require but a short answere whiche is that these ciuill and ecclesiasticall offices whiche we ioyne togither in one person tende to one and the same ende and serue for the same purpose that is the quiet and good gouernment of the Churche and the suppression of Tract 17. cap. vit vyce and sinne I haue proued before that the externall forme and kinde of gouernment in the Churche is not one and vniforme as you heere affirme but variable according to place person and time Diuers offices may be committed to one man in a common wealth though there be more fit for the same excepte you wyll make the state popular and restrayne the Prince from the libertie of bestowing suche offices vpon suche as she thinketh moste méete for them which if it be well marked is parte of your drifte Belike you or some of your friendes lacke offices and therefore you woulde gladly haue a newe distribution Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 168. somevvhat past the midst And althoughe bothe be vnlawfull yet as the case standeth in our realme it is more tollerable that the ciuill Magistrate should doe the office of a minister than that the minister shoulde intermeddle with the function of the Magistrate For when the accounts shall be cast it will fall out that there are more sufficient and able men to serue in the common wealth of this realme than in the Church and greater want in the one than in the other Io. Whitgifte This reason of yours if it were true dothe but accuse the Prince and hir Councell of lacke of due consideration of the state of this Realme for this is a reason of Policie and not of Diuinitie Undoubtedly you are set vp in the chayre of controlement and your giftes are so great that you dare presume to prescribe both new Diuinitie and newe Pollicie I doe nothing doubte but that the state of this common wealth is better knowne and considered than that there shall néede any of your aduertisementes for the gouernment of it and therefore I passe ouer these wordes of yours as voyde of reason and full of presumption and suche whereby of stomacke onely you séeke to discredite and to disable the state of the Churche and ecclesiasticall persons agaynst whome you haue conceyued displeasure Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 168. somevvhat tovvards the ende And if beside this both authoritie of the worde of God light of reason we will looke vnto the practise of the church many yeres after the tyme of the Apostles we shall finde that the church hath beene very carefull from tune to time that this order should be kept that the ministers should not entangle them selues with any thing beside
in church matters to pluck downe that which is alreadie buylded and to prescribe a new platforme to be certain of their ing expert in their doings groūded in learning and experience not yonglings and nouices whose yea to day is nay to morow whose heads are full of new toys and deuises who publish in print their first cogitations and counsels before they haue any leysure to thinke of their second This is that whiche I misselyke and reproue in the authors of the Admonition for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if they had published their myndes as scholars and not as maisters as learners not as teachers as putters in mynde of that whiche best liked themselues not as prescribers what all other men ought of duetie to followe theyr sodaine corrections had bene much more tollerable But I will not multiplie wordes with you neyther will I require that whiche you contemptuously enoughe haue spoken of my selfe only I admonishe the Reader to take héede howe he doth credite such rashe and yong buylders whiche so soone as they haue ended their buylding must be constrayned to plucke downe the same agayne Ansvvere to the Additions detractions c. of the fyrst parte of the Admonition In the preface to Archbishops Byshops Suffraganes Deanes c. they haue Doctors and Bachelers of diuin ie mislyked added Vniuersitie Doctors and Bachelers of diuinitie It should seeme that they would haue a confusion of degrees which they call equalitie as well in vniuersities as in Parishes and other their imagined congregations marke whether this geare tend not to the ouerthrow of vniuersities and of all good learning T. C. Pag. 173. tovvards the ende of the first Section For whereas he accuseth the Authors of the Admonition in the first leafe as though they should condemne Doctors and Bachlers of diuinitie and so bring in confusion of degrees he vpon the. 5. leafe confesseth that they allow of a Doctor Although he that taketh away degrees of Doctor or Bachler of diumine doth not bring in confusion nor taketh not away all degrees of schooles especially seeing they are now made bare names without any offices and oftentymes they are admitted to these degrees which neyther can nor will teach Io. Whitgifte I say that belike they allowe of a Doctor of law bicause they haue left that title out in their seconde edition and haue in stead thereof placed Doctors and Bachlers of diuinitie The cause why you leaue so much vnto them in this barbarous opinion The cause why the Replier ioyneth agaynst degrees in diumitie may be coniectured to be the repulse that you suffered when you earnestly desired the one of them If the degrées be bestowed vpon vnworthie persons which you are not able to proue at this day the fault is in the persons that so bestow them not in the degrees the taking away whereof must néedes in the ende bring in confusion and barbarisme and in déede they can by no meanes stand with your platforme and therefore do you here insinuate that you are content to allow all the degrées in schooles but onely the degrées in diuinitie and yet as I sayde before not long since you greatly desired euen the highest of them Additions detractions and alterations in the first part of the Admonition In the Preface In the margent for the. 15. of Mathew vers 23. they haue quoted the. 15. of Math. vers 13. to proue that tyrannous Lordship cannot stand with Christs kingdome the wordes be these But he ansvvered and sayd enery plant vvhich my father hath not planted shall be rooted vp meaning that such as be not by free adoption and grace grafted in Jesus Christ shall be rooted vp But this proueth not their proposition I do not alow tyrannous Lordship but I disallow such vnapt reasons In the same Preface speaking of Bishops c. they haue added these wordes they were once of our minde but since their consecration they be so transubstantiated that they are become such as you see It may be that consideration of the tyme place state condition and other circumstances hath altered some of them in some poynts as wise and not wilfull men in such matters by such circumstances be oftentimes altered but that any one of them were euer of your minde in most things vttered in those two treatises I can not be perswaded Fol. 1. For the. 1. Act. vers 12. is noted Act. 2. vers 2 to proue that in the olde Church there was a try all had both of the Ministers abilitie to instruct and of their godly conuersation also The text is this And it shall be that vvhosoeuer shall call on the name of the Lorde shall be saued Which is farther frō the purpose a great deale than the other place is There is also in the same leafe left out King Edwards Priests whiche King Edwards priests left out argueth with howe little discretion and lesse aduise the first Admonition was pe ed. Speaking of learning master Nowels Catechisme these wordes be added and so first they consecrate them and make them Ministers and then they set them to schoole This scoffe is answered before and might very well A scoffe haue bene left out And a little after where it was before then election was made by the common consent of the whole Church now it is thus corrected A correction of a place then election was made by the Elders with the common consent of the whole Churche which altereth the matter something but yet is not proued by the text alleaged out of the first of the Acts and by me answered before Fol. 2. For Act. 14. verse 13. is quoted Act. 14. verse 23. which ouersight I my selfe haue corrected in my answere to that place There is also left out an Albe which before was sayde to be required Albe left out by the Pontificall in the ordering of ministers As I sayde before so I say agayne that in the booke of ordering ministers now vsed and printed since Anno dom 1559. there is neyther required albe surples vestiment nor pastorall staffe This lyne is also added these are required by their Pontifical meaning surplesse vestiment c. which is vntrue as I haue sayde before For the. 1. Tim. 1. verse 14. nowe it is 1. Tim. 1. verse 19. but it is not to proue any matter in controuersie onely it is vncharitably and vniustly applyed For. 1. Sam. 9. verse 28. is placed 1. Sam. 9. verse 18. the selfe same place that I haue answered before Where before it was thus written Then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers inuented by man nowe these wordes inuented by man be lefte out and there is added as necessitie of tyme required so they mighte poure c. I knowe not their meaning excepte they woulde neyther haue vs bounde to the Lordes prayer nor any other Fol. 3. It was before remoue Homilies Articles Iniunctions a prescript order nowe Alteration of words it is that prescript
with the offices then suche as speake of the very thyng it sel e withoute the names I will begin with Councels The Councell of Nice as you haue hearde hath the name of Metropolitane Councels of the name and o ice of Metropolitane an Archbishoppe c. Con. Ni en Can. 4. 7. and dothe limitte vnto ym certaine Prouinces to gouerne and take the care of It hathe bin declared that bothe M. Caluine Illyricus M. Foxe and others doe acknowledge the names and office of Patriarkes and Archbishoppes c. in the same Canon to be conteyned Neyther doe they nor any other learned wryter denie these names and offices to haue bene in the primitiue Churche and that fixed to certayne places and persons not mouable by actions nor practised by course Lykewyse you haue hearde howe that Councell by this clause Secundùm morem antiquum according to the auncient custome doth signifie that these names and offices haue bene in the Churche of long tyme or else it woulde not haue bin saide to be an olde custome Moreouer the nynthe Canon of the Councell of Antioche before alledged is Con. Antiocb can 9. most playne and euident both for the name and the thing together with the long continuance of them in the Churche The. 20. Canon of the same Councell of Antioche sayeth directly that no Bishoppes Can. 20. may call a seuerall Councell withoute the consente of theyr Metropolitanes In the sixth and. 37. Canons Concilij Arelatensis mention is made of the Metropolitane Con. Arelat cano 6. 37. of his authoritie in ordering of bishoppes and of the authoritie of his Synode The lyke bothe for the name and the matter also touchyng ordeynyng of Con. L odic can 12. Con Cartb 2. Can 12. Byshoppes is in the twelsth Canon of the Councell of Laodicea In the seconde Councell of Carthage in the twelfthe Canon it is euident that there was a Primate in euerye Prouince and that withoute his commaundement it was not lawfull for any to bée ordeyned Bishop In the. 13. and. 17. and diuers other Canons of the general Councell of Carchage Con. Carth. can 13. ▪ 17. c Con. Chalcedo as it is in the Gréeke copie the authoritie of the Primate is also expressed In the Councell of Chalcedon the name of Archebishoppe is sundrye tymes vsed Flauianus is there called Archebishop of Constantinople Dioscorus Archebishop of Alexandria and one Atticus bishoppe of Nicopolis dothe call the saide Dioscorus Archi piscopum nostrum our Archebishop Leo is called Archebishop of Rome c. Of the Councels that folowed there is no doubte and it were but superfluous for mee to stande in reciting of them and therfore thys shall suffise for the Councels to shew that bothe the name of Metropolitane or Archbishop and also the authoritie is not vnhearde of in the Churche of Christ or a flitting or slyding office Fathers and 〈◊〉 of the name and 〈◊〉 t Archebishop E phanius Nowe to the fathers and stories Epiphanius Lib. 2. tom 2. haeri 68. calleth one Peter Archebishoppe of Alexandria And that it maye fully appeare that it was bothe a continuall office and of greate authoritie and iurisdiction I will sette towne his woordes Et Meletius quidem in carcere detentus erat vnà cum praedictis Martyribus ac Petro Alexandriae Arc iepiscopo c. And Meletius truely was kepte in pryson togyther with the forenamed Martyrs and Peter the Archbishop of Alexandria and Meletius seemed to excell the other bishops of Aegypt for he had the seconde place after Peter in his Archbishoprike as being vnder him to helpe him and looking to Ecclesiasticall matters vnder him For this is the custome that the Byshoppe of Alexandria hathe the Ecclesiasticall gouernmente of all Aegypte Thebais and Mareota and Libya and Ammonica and Mareotis and Pentapolis In the same leafe he calleth this Peter Archbyshop thrée times This Peter lyued in the yeare of our Lorde thrée hundred and foure twentie yeres at the least before Peter Arch bishop of Alexandria abou twentie yeres before the Councell of Nice Idem the Councell of Nice The same Epiphanius in the same Booke and Tome baere 69. writeth thus Quotquot enim Ecclesiae in Alexandria catholicae Ecclesiae sunt sub vno Archiepiscopo sunt All the Churches that are Catholike Churches in Alexandria are vnder one Archebyshoppe And a little after he calleth Meletius Archebyshoppe of Aegypte but yet subiecte to Alexander the Archebyshoppe of Alexandria and all this was before the Councell ot Nice What can be spoken more aptely and more playnely to my purpose And if T. C. will cauill at the authoritie of the authour whyche is the poorest shifte that can bée especially when the authour is so generally allowed then for breuities sake I doe referre hym to the Epistle of Ianus Cornarius prefixed before this Booke and to that whiche after warde I haue alledged in his defense out of the Centuries Athanasius was called Archebyshoppe of Alexandria and that it may appeare that it was not a bare title but an office of Gouernment you shall finde these wordes in his second Apologie Iscbaras quidam vt nequaquam clericus ita moribus improbissimus conatus est sui pagi insulas decipere iactans sese clericum esse Id vbi resciuisset eius loci Presbyter mibi tum Ecclesias Atbanas Apol. 2. perlustranti renunciauit ego igitur c. A certaine man named Ischaras as hee was no Clearke so was hee most wicked in manners who wente aboute to deceyue the yles of his precincte boasting that hee was a Clarke when the Prieste of that place vnderstoode thereof hee tolde it vnto mee when I was visiting my Churches so I sente the same man togyther wyth Macharius the Prieste to fetche vnto mee Ischaras whome when they founde sicke in his chamber they commaunded hys father to warne hys sonne that hee attempted no suche thing as was reported of him And after in the same place followeth Ischaras Letters of submission to Athanasius In the same Apologie there are Letters of submission written by Arsennius Byshoppe of Hipsell and the Ministers and Deacons of the same Diecesse to Athanasius the beginning of the Letters is this Et nos quoque diligentes pacem vnanimitatem cum ecclesia catholica cui tu per Dei gratiam praefectus es volensque ecclesiastico Canoni pro veteri instituto subijci scribimus tibi Papa dilecte promittimusque in nomine Domini nos deinceps non communicaturos cum schismaticis c. And we also louing peace and concord with the Catholike Churche ouer whiche thou arte by the grace of God appoynted and willing accordyng to the olde custome to be subiecte to the Ecclesiasticall Canon write to thee louing father and in the name of the Lorde promise that wee hences orth will not communicate with the Schismatikes By this it is playne that Athanasius had great iurisdiction ouer many Byshops and other
Ministers and ecclesiasticall persons Againe in the same Apologie mention is made of an Archbyshop In the same Booke the Priestes and Deacons of the Churches of Mareota in an Epistle that they writte to the Synode besydes that they call Athanasius Episcopum nostrum oure Byshoppe they shewe that hée vsed to visite the Churche solemnlye accompanyed Theyr wordes are woorthe the notyng and bée these folowyng Vtpote qui non longis finibus ab Episcopo distemus comites in lustranda Marioteei cohasimus nunquam enim ille solus visitandi causa itinera obire solet sed comites secum trabere Presbyteros Diaconos non paucos ex plebe Bicause we dwell not farre from the Byshoppe and we accompanied him whilest he visited Mariotes for he is neuer wont alone to take iourneyes in visitations but to take companions with him Priestes and Deacons and many of the people And his own wordes a little before that Epistle speaking of these Priestes and Deacons be these Et mecum Prouincias lustrabant And they visited the Prouinces with me Whereby also it is euident that he had a large iurisdiction and that he did visite his Prouinces The same Athanasius in that Apologie declaring what this place called Mariotes is sayth Mariotes ager est in Alexandria quo in loco nunquam fuit Episcopus imo ne Chorepiscopus quidem sed vniuer sae eius loci Ecclesiae Episcopo Alexandrino subiacent tamen vt singuli pagi suos presbyteros habeant Mariotes is a territorie of Alexandria where there was neuer Byshop no not so muche as a Byshops deputie but all the Churches of that place are vnder the Byshop of Alexandria yet so that euery village haue their Priestes In his Epistle Ad solitariam vitam degentes he calleth Lucius Metropolitane of Sardinia and Dionysius Metropolitane of Mediolane Socrates Lib. 5. cap. 8. sayth that in the Councell of Constantinople They confirmed Socrates the faythe of the Nicene Councell and appointed Patriarkes assigning their Prouinces that the Byshoppes of one Dioces shoulde not intermedle in other Churches for this before was indifferently vsed by reason of persecution And to Nectarius was allotted Megalopolis and Thracia c. The same is to be séene in the Canons of that Councell of Constantinople Iustinian Illyricus Cent. 4. I omitte Iustinian the Emperoure who so often mentioneth these names and offices in his Constitutions I also omitte that Illyricus calleth Cyprian Metropolitane of Carthage and the fourthe Centurie where Ambrose is called Metropolitane hauyng gouernmente of many Churches Neyther shall I néede to repeate the places of Caluine M. Foxe M. Beza Lib. conf cap. 5. or other late wryters iudgementes who directely confesse that these names were vsuall in the Primitiue Churche and that the office was permanente for this that is spoken maye suafice I will come to those Authours and places where the office and iurisdiction is The office of Metropolitan Archbishop without the name Cyprian Greg. Nazi spoken of though the name be not expressed Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist. 8. sayeth that he hadde a large Prouince Habet enim Numidiam Mauritaniam sibi cobaerentes for it hathe Numidia and Mauritania annexed vnto it And Gregorie Nazianzene in the Oration that he made in the commendation of Cyprian sayeth that he didde rule and gouerne not onely the Churches of Carthage or Affrike sed Hesperiae vniuersae imò Orienti ferè ipsi ad finem vsque meridiei Septentrionis but of all Spayne and almoste of the whole Easte vnto the ende of the Southe and the Northe And what was this else but to bée an Archebyshop Eusebius Lib. 6. cap. 1. sayeth that Demetrius was Byshop of the Parishes of Alexandria Eusebius and of Egypt and this Demetrius liued Anno Domini 191. Eusebius testifyeth there likewise that one Iulianus was before him in the same roume Athanasius in an Epistle that he writte De sentētia Dionysij Episcopi Alexand. contra Arrianos Atbanasius affirmeth ad Dionysium Alexandria ▪ Episcopum curam etiam Ecclesiarum in Pentapoli superioris Libyae pertinuisse that vnto Dionysius Bishoppe of Alexandria the care of the Churches in Pentapolis of the higher Libya perteyned And it is manyfeste in the same Epistle that these Churches had their Byshoppe besydes For Eusebius Lib. 7. cap. 26. Euseb. writeth that Basilides was Byshoppe of the parishes of Pentapolis while Dionysius lyued so that it is euident that Dionyfius was an Archebyshoppe And this is that Dionysius that is called Alexandrinus whose workes be extante and is one of the most ancient writers The same Eusebius sayth that Gregorie did gouerne the Churches throughout Pontus Sozomen Lib. 7. cap. 19. sayth that though there be many cities in Sythia yet they Sozom. haue but one bishoppe Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 11. testifyeth that Amphilochius to whome the Metropolitane citie of Licaonia was committed to be gouerned did also gouerne that whole countreye and did driue from thence the heresie of the Messalians And in the same Chapter we Theodoret. reade that Letoius gouernour of the Churches of Militia burned Monasteries infected with that heresie whiche declareth that Bishops had then greate authoritie in gouernment Aurelius Bishop of Carthage in the Councell of Affrike sayd that he had the ouersyght and care of many Churches But what néede I labour so muche in a matter that can not be vnknowne to Con. Afric can 55. in graeco any that is of any reading this therfore shall suffice bothe for the name and office of an Archebishop Metropolitane c. against the vnlearned distinction that you haue vsed in answering S. Ambrose Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision Auswere to the Admonition Pag. 66. Sect. 5. Sozomenus lykewyse Lib. 2. of his Ecclesiasticall historie cap. 8. calleth Symeon Archbishop of Seleucia and Basile the greate Metropolitane of Cappadocia Lib. 3. cap. 16. T. C. Page 71. Sect. vlt. Basill you saye the great Metropolitane of Cappadocia I haue shewed what the woorde Metropolitane signifyeth and howe there was not then suche a Metropolitane as wee haue now and as the Admonition speaketh agaynst You playe as he whithe is noted as none of the wysest among the marchauntes whyche thought that euery shippe that approched the hauen was his ship For so you thinke that wheresoeuer you reade Metropolitane or Archebishoppe ▪ foorthwith you thinke there is your Metropolitane or your Archebishop where as it shall appeare that besydes the name they are no more lyke than a bishop with vs is lyke a minister Io. Whitgifte What this worde Metropolitane signifyeth what office and iurisdiction he had is before sufficiently declared and may more at large appeare in the constitutions of Iustinian Lykewyse whether our Metropolitans in office any thing at all differ from them Surely he that shall well consider your vnapte answeres and your vtopicall iestes may thinke that you weare the liuerie of those marchantes you talke of and