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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A65842	A brief discovery of the dangerous principles of John Horne (a priest in Lin) and Thomas Moore junior both teachers of the people called Mooreians or Manifestarians, (and called by some free-willers or independants.) In answer to their book called A brief discovery of the people called Quakers, and a warning to all people to beware of them and of their dangerous principles, &c. Which book is a false narrative of two disputes, the one which they had with John Whitehead at Gedney in Lincoln-shire, and the other with Geo. Whitehead and Geo. Fox the younger, at Lin in Norfolke, both in the seventh moneth, 1659. Also priest Horns testimony against his brethren the priests. This is to go amonst the professors in England in discovery of the truth; ... By the truth which is in George Whitehead. John Whitehead. George Fox the younger.	Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723.; Whitehead, John, 1630-1696. aut; Fox, George, d. 1661. aut	1659 (1659)	Wing W1896; ESTC R220960	30,510	44

1 2. laying aside all malice and all guile mark all guile and hypocrisy the word and being his distinction he might as well say that envie is not malice because there is and between them but in that thing many saw his folly at the dispute in his affirming that all sin is not guile when as all guile doth only include one sin as he would have it but all sin and any one sin makes a man guilty and so he hath guile in him so that he that had no guile in him had no sin in him and also John Horne hath turned George Whiteheads words about this thing in saying that be said Guile is a transgression of the Law therefore guile is all sin which is falsely framed for the words were to this effect every trangression of the Law is guile or sin and all guile includes all transgression of the Law therefore every sin is guile and what sin can they prove had Nathaniel in him when he had no guile in him they must either prove some sin that was then in him or else see themselves confuted J. Horne and T. Moore in the 3. and 4. pages of their Book say That in the Declaration by Edward Burrough page 4. that we believe the Saints upon earth may be perfectly freed from the body of sin and death herein we are concluded to be Preachers of Lyes and Errors this they charge the Quakers with and yet they say We are compleat in Christ and by the Grace of Christ received shall be and may be here made perfect hearted with Christ but that some are sinlesse here neither Christ nor any Apostle or Prophet ever preached of any therefore the Quakers are deceivers Ans. Here they might as well have accused the true Prophets and Apostles with being Preachers of Lyes and deceivers for they witnessed to the same the Quakers witnesse to as said the Prophet blessed are the undefiled in the way mark undefiled in the way they also do no iniquity Psal. 119. 1 2 3. and saith the Lord ye shall be clean from all your filthinesse Ezek. 36. 25. and Christ exhorted his to be perfect as their heavenly Father is perfect Matt. 5. 48. and every one that is perfect shall be as his Lord and the same Apostle who said ye are compleat in Christ said in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh Col. 2. 10 1. Now the same spirit in J. Horne and T. Moore that hath accused the Quakers with being deceivers for bearing witnesse to these Truths would have accused the true Prophets Christ and his Apostles for being deceivers but their confusion and railing against the Innocent is here made manifest who notwithstanding have confessed a compleatnesse and perfect heartednesse with Christ here and so in pleading for sin in this life are sighting against their own words for they who are compleat in Christ are perfectly freed from sin being compleat in Christ in whom there is no sin and know this that sinners are out of the compleatnesse which the Saints have in Christ and the heare that hath sin dwelling in it is not perfect much more might be said to this John Horne and Thomas Moore p. 3. to prove that they who have believed in Christ comes not to prove the first Adams state before the fall say that Adam before his fall had neither sin in him nor death upon but surely the Quakers must die as well as other mens Adam also before his fall was under a Covenant of works doe this and live and might possibly sin and dye but not so the believers Answ. Mark their heap of confusion here they own that the Believers in Christ are come to a further state or Covenant then Adam was in before the fall who then had no sin in him and yet have accused the Believers with having the body of sin or not being perfect while they are here and Adam might possibly sin and dye but not so the Believers they say And as for the Quakers dying because of which they would accuse them with being sinners here their darknesse appears for Believers dying the natural death doth not prove them sinners while they are here for through death they gain more of the Peace and Glory of God which they partake of in their life time and what doth John Horne believe that Adam might not have dyed the natural death if he had not sinned for Christ dyed who had no sin that he might destroy the death which came by sin and him that hath the power of it and they who dye in the Lord are blessed and to dye is gain unto them Phil. 1. 2● so that righteous mens dying was not charged upon them as a reward for their sin but witnessed to be gain unto them before whose decease their sins are done away and he that believeth hath everlasting life yet the wages of sin is death to them who are not freed from it by the gift of God which is life and God said to Adam in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely dye but Adam lost not his natural life in the day he eat of the tree of knowledge for after that he lived in the body and as for the Covenant that Adam was under before the full it was a Covenant of life for he was in the image of God and a living soule having the breath of life in him and had dominion in it while he stood in his habitation and this state have the true Believers proved and witnessed that life and nature image that was in man before the fall though they be come further in the second Adam who is greater then the first Adam and as for Adam before the fall being under a Covenant of works do this and live as if he had not lived when he was in innocency till he did something to merit life you have here spoken ignorantly for that Covenant of works was established by the Law after the fall and the Law entered because of transgression till the Seed came which Seed destroyes sin and redeems the Creature out of the fall and out of the death which came by sin P. 4. And in their second charge against us called Quakers J. Horne and T. Moor have accused us to be reprobates concerning faith as touching he person of Christ for they say we did not nor could be brought to acknowledge that Christ is glorified in the heavens without all men the heavens above the clouds and distinct from the visible earth in the same body which suffered was crucified dead and buried c. And this have they questioned several times altering their own words and then in page 5. asking whether Christ hath any body of flesh and bones distinct from all other bodies and spirits of men to which they say we would by no means be drawn to give a direct answer But then mark how they have again contradicted themselves

A BRIEF DISCOVERY OF THE Dangerous Principles OF John Horne a Priest in Lin and Thomas Moore junior both Teachers of the people called Mooreians or Manifestarians and called by some Freewillers or Independants In Answer to their Book Called A brief Discovery of the People called Quakers and a Warning to all people to beware of them and of their dangerous principles c. Which Book is a false Narrative of two Disputes the one which they had with John Whitehead at Gedney in Lincoln-shire and the other with Geo. Whitehead and Geo. Fox the younger at Lin in Norfolke both in the seventh Moneth 1659. Also Priest Horns Testimony against his brethren the Priests This is to go amongst the Professors in England in Discovery of the Truth For in this Answer the Truth is cleared and John Horne and Tho. Moores Ignorance discovered concerning Perfection and the Resurrection and the Body and Blood of Christ and his Light and other things of concernment and their abusing the Truth which is set over them and their deceits made manifest By the Truth which is in George Whitehead John Whitehead George Fox the younger Jer 10. 21. For the Pastors are become bruitish and have not sought the Lord therefore they shall not prosper and all their flocks shall be scattered Printed for Thomas Simmons at the Bull and Mouth near Aldersgate 1659. TO THE READER THat all People who reads this Treatise may see the confusion and Ignorance of John Horne and Thomas Moore who long have been owned as eminent Teachers by many that are deceived by them it is seen sit that they seriously here take a view of some of the Principles affirmed by the said John Horne and Thomas Moore at the dispute that we had with them as ordered of the Lord at Lin in Norfolke the fifteenth day of the seventh Moneth 1659. for their booke which is hereafter confuted hath some relation to their Principles which are laid down as followeth Thomas Moore affirmed That sin is a natural Heritage in the believers while they are here That their nature is restored in Christ speaking of their own nature and that their nature is a filthy nature and Christ took upon him their nature John Horne That they that had no guile in them had sin in them That every sin is not guile T. M. That the blood of Christ shed is not in his Person in heaven but the virtue of it T. M. That the blood of Christ shed is the foundation of their faith but where it is they answered not nor could they tell T M. That the Life of Christ is not in the bloud of Christ so from this then the foundation of their faith hath not the Life of Christ in it T. M. That the Light with which Christ lighteth every man is both natural and spiritual T. M. That the Person of Christ viz. of flesh and bone is a quickening spirit and dwells in the believers by faith and to prove it he said That the Corinthians dwelt in the heart of Paul J. H. To that of 1 Cor. 15. 45. The last Adam was made a quickening spirit John Horne said That he was distinct from the Eternal Spirit T M. To prove sin a natural heritage in believers so long as they are here he brought that of Rom. 7. 17. These Doctrines with many such like were taken notice of by many as they were asserted by the said John Horne and Thomas Moore and contradicted by the Truth at the Dispute aforesaid wherein it is so easie to see their darknesse and confusion that we need say little about them at present but proceed to Answer their Booke which in effect hath the very same Doctrines in it with many such like so that we desire that our following Answer may be seriously read without prejudice or envy against us and let the Light of Christ judge between us and our Accusers whereby the Readers hereof may see the errours and confusions of these men aforesaid confuted by the Truth and us who love it cleared from their slanders and revilings ANd now John Horne and Thomas Moore you have charged us called Quakers with being guilty of great errors 1. In that you say we plead for and maintain a perfection of sinlessnesse in our selves in this life and to prove this a great Error you say that the Apostles never said of themselves or any other man or woman besides Christ Jesus that they had no sin in in them Answ. Here you are found in the great Error your selves who deny the perfection of sinlesnesse in the believers in this life the Apostle said he that believeth hath the witnesse in himself 1 John 5. 10. which witnesse is perfect and sinlesse so not without the perfection of sinlesnesse and he that believeth hath obtained witnesse that he is righteous and having this perfect witnesse in himself he is not without the perfection and purity of it in himself for the witnesse of God cannot be divided from the nature of it and John said speaking of Christ as he is so are we in this world 1 John 4. 17. so you have manifestly wronged both us and the Apostles and we do not say that there is any perfection in ourselves without Christ who is our righteousnesse and we the righteousnesse of God in him Again to prove our maintaining perfection in this life an Errour you say Christ was manifested to take away sin and in him is no sin 1 John 3. but never is it said so of any other and that it is no where said by any one of the Saints of themselves or of any of their Brethren that they had no sin in them or were not sinners Answ. Here you would accuse the Saints or Brethren with having sin in them and with being sinners while in this life But mark how fairly you have contradicted your own doctrine you tell us It is said indeed that he that abideth in him sinneth not and he that is born of God doth not commit or worksin because the seed of God abides in him neither can he sin that is commit work or yield up to sin because he is born of God you say So you may here see what J. Horn and T. Moore have confessed that he that abideth in Christ sinneth not and that he that is born of God cannot sin nor yield up to sin because his seed remains in him whereas before they have counted our maintaining a perfection of sinlesness in this life a great errour and would accuse the Saints and Brethren with being sinners so any that are not wholly blind may see their confusion and how they have broken themselves upon the stone which they have been making warre against for if Christ be made manifest to take away sin then they in whom he is made manifest are not to have sin remaining in them so long as they are in this life and if he that is born of God cannot sin nor yield up to sin then he is not a

sinner but clear and perfect from sin And whosoever sinneth hath neither seen Christ nor known him Now they that affirm that the Saints or they that be born of God are sinners they might as well say that the Saints have neither seen Christ nor known him And where it is said he that is born of God cannot sin John Horn and Thomas Moore have given their meaning to it which is it 's no more then a man acted and led of God cannot therein sin they say which is no more then to say that a man that is acted of God cannot sin in being acted of God or he that doth righteousness doth not sin in so doing so that still they reserve an accusation against him that is born of God for being a sinner whereas John saith be not deceived he that doth righteousness is righteous even as Christ is righteous in whom is no sin 1 John 3. 7 8. And now further see how they have accused the Apostle Paul J. Horn and T. Moores words are these Yea in 1 Tim. 1. 16. he saith he was then when an Apostle the chief of sinners Answ. So here they have accused Paul to be the chief of sinners when an Apostle when as the same Apostle saith in that 1 Tim. 1. 12. That Christ counted him faithful putting him into the Mi●istry but these accusing Paul then to be the chief of sinners when an Apostle they might as well say that he that is faithful to Christ is the chief of sinners when as it is said that Christ came to save sinners of whom I am chief and saith he had obtained mercy now it doth not follow that Paul was then one of the chief or greatest sinners when faithful but he was one of the chief of sinners that were saved by Christ who saveth his people from their sins and doth not suffer them to remain the greatest sinners when they are saved from sin as they here have accused Paul And as for these Scriptures you bring 1 John 1. 8 9 10. and James 3. 1 2. these prove not what you would have them that the Saints were not perfectly freed from sin in this life they did not preach up sin and imperfection to remain in them while in this life as you do for both James and John exhorteth them otherwise for said James let patience have her perfect work that you may be perfect and entire wanting nothing James 1. 4 and John said If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the Blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin 1 John 1. 7. and chap. 2. 1. My little children these things write I unto you that ye sin not and if any man sin we have an Advacate with the Father So he did not include them all as to remain sinners for they were all sinners while they were not cleansed by the blood of Christ Now we ask these men aforesaid seeing Paul was counted faithfull and James a servant of Jesus Christ and John the beloved of Christ what one sin or sins can they lay to their charge or to any of them which they were not freed from before their decease let them prove some sin which was not destroyed in any of these before their decease and who can lay any thing to the charge of Gods elect let them speak out and answer directly or for ever be silent from pleading for sin and accusing the righteous as they have done John did not say if we say we are not all sinners we deceive our selves but if we say we have no sin and if we say we have not sinned which if the little children whom John wrote unto that they might not sin had sin then John might say we have sin for he numbred himself with them as friends or those whose sins were forgiven and yet the young men and Fathers he wrote to had overcome the wicked one and had the word of God abiding in them 1 John 2. and as for that of Prov. 20. 9. who can say I have made my heart clean this is not against us for we do not say that we our selves have made our hearts clean it being Christs work to cleanse and for ever to have perfected them that are sanctified Heb. 10. 14. and Solomon saith the just man walketh in his Integrity and the righteousnesse of the perfect shall direct his way Prov. 11. 5. and 20. 7. And as for that of Eccle● 7. he saith all things have I seen in the dayes of my vanity there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousnesse and a wicked man that prolongeth his life in wickednesse but he that feareth the Lord shall come out of them all forthere is not a just man upon earth Mark for there among them that were in the changeable state not among them that are borne of God for they cannot sin because the Seed of God abides in them and they in it neither can the wicked one touch them 1 John 5. 18. J. Horn and T. Moore say There is no man that sinneth not It is true indeed that Christ said of Nathaniel that he was an Israelite in whom was no guile John 1. 47. Answ. Here you may see how they are confounded in what they themselves bring there was some in whom was no guile contrary to what they affirmed before against perfection and as for that 1 King 8. 6. it is said if they sin against thee for there is no man that sinneth not Mark the words for there again among them that sinned against God and this was in the time of the old Covenant Solomon spoke these words which Covenant they brake but now the Lord makes a new Covenant with his people when he takes away their sins not according to the old Covenant which the Israelites brake Heb. 8. and Solomon also said let your heart be perfect with the Lord your God and walk in his Statutes and to keep his Commandements as at this day 1 King 8. 61. J. Horn saith It is not said that there was no sin in Nathaniel and though I pleaded that all sin is guile yet the contrary was testified from 1 Pet. 2. 1 2. where hypocrisie and envie and malice and evill speakings are distinguished from Guile Guile being a deceitful hiding a mans sin or deceit Answ. Here John Horne would accuse Nathaniel to have sin in him when as Christ said there was no Guile in him John 1. 47. and so here he hath affirmed as much as that all sin is not Guile and so would distinguish hypocrisy and envie from being guile and yet confesseth Guile to be a deceitful hiding a mans sin or deceit now let any that have understanding see these mens ignorance what is not hypocrisy a deceitful hiding a mans sin and is not every sin deceit and deceit Guile see their confusion and this being John Hornes reason to prove all sinne not Guile because it is said in 1 Pet. 2.

equivocal terms Answ. They have changed G. Foxes words for he said That which is raised is a spiritual body and that which is raised was dead and we answered them plainly to these things according to the Scriptures but like fools whom the Apostle reproved they would not be satisfied when we told them it is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body and receives life and spirit by the Power of God there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body howbeit that was not first which is spiritual but that which is natural and afterward that which is spiritual so the Apostle distinguisheth between the natural body and the spiritual body between the earthly bodies and the heavenly bodies and the glories of each and doth not say that which dyes or is sown which is earthly shall rise as we told these said accusers according to the Apostles comparison thou fool that which thou sowest is not quickned except it dye and that which thou sowest thou sowest not that body that shall be mark thou sowest not that body that shall be but bear grain it may chance of wheat or of some other grain 1 Cor. 15. 36 37. contrary to which they have affirmed that the same body that dyes or is sown in the earth shall raise again when the Apostle saith thou sowest not that body that shall be and his comparison is of the grain of wheat and the like to which Thomas Moor answered That the same kirnel of wheat rose up again in the blade when it is known that the same kirnel doth not rise but another body or ear of Corn grows forth in the nature of that wch is sown yet we say that God giveth a body as it pleaseth him to every seed his own body which seeds being known the nature and kind of each seed discerned the body of each may be discerned in the Resurrection by the light wch crosseth mens carnal imaginations by which they must never know the Mystery of the Resurrection of the bodies nor the seeds wch the Lord knoweth how to reserve every one in its own center and habitation till the sounding of the last Trumpet at the last day and there shall be a Resurrection both of the just and the unjust and many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise some shall come forth to the Resurrection of life and others to the Resurrection of Condemnation every one to be rewarded according to their works and John said The Sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them they were Judged every man according to their works death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life Rev. 2. And now this being an answer to their Question about the Resurrection note that when Thomas Moor was asked what was the seed of which the Apostle said God giveth it a body as it pleaseth him Tho. Moor answered that the seed was the body that dyes or is laid in the ground which he pleaded for the rising of to which it was Replyed then that every man must rise with two bodies if that body that is terrestrial must rise and have another body given it but herein his ignorance was seen and again he and John Horn have confuted themselves for in their Post-script they say That the Apostle implying plainly that the raised body in the Resurrection shall not be flesh and blood Then how is it that they have pleaded so much for the same earthly body that dies to rise again which is a body of flesh and blood when the raised body in the Resurrection is not a body of flesh and blood they say these men are much shut up in Babylon as their confusion manifests An accusation of John Horn and Tho. Moor against John Whitehead to prove him a Reprobate p. 6. Is that John argued against the Redemption of the body to be waited for or expected after death and said The Apostle had it before the death of the body and in p. 10. They tell of the nature or being of man that in the Resurrection it is discharged of sin and Law and death Answ. So here they expect not the Redemption of the body nor their discharge from sin till after death wherein they have discovered themselves to be Reprobates and not John Whitehead and their expecting the Redemption of the body to be waited for after death is contrary to the Saints expectations for they waited and groaned for the Redemption of the body from under corruption when they were upon earth and the Creature it self was to be brought into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God which state was witnessed by as many as were led by the Spirit of God who were sanctified throughout in Body in Soul and Spirit and put not Redemption afar off till after death as these men aforementioned have done Again They have accused us for Antichristians from a passage in Edward Burroughs Book where it is said That Christ is to be known after the Spirit as he was before the world was and that is the knowledge of him which is to eternal Salvation On the contrary they have affirmed in page 7. That the knowledge of Christ after the Spirit as he was before the world was is not the knowledge of him to eternal Salvation but on the contrary they say Answ. In this they have shewed themselves to be both abusers of the Truth and Antichristians for to know Christ as he is the power of God is to know him after the Spirit as he was before the world was and this is the knowledge of him to Eternal Salvation it is the Power of God that saveth and we trust in the living God who is the Saviour of all men specially of them that believe 1 Tim. 4. 10. Now as Christ is the living God he was before the world was and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ this is the true God and eternal life 1 John 5. 20. And now I say they that receive this knowledge of Christ do not deny his knowledge in his flesh but witness to the same eternal Power that was manifest in his flesh and thorow his sufferings which Power was before the world was and hath the same glory that it had then and is the same for ever And in page 7. it is said against the Quakers That they can and may in their canting language say he is manifest in England and is persecuted and dyes and rises as well as in Judea and Jerusalem however they make nothing of his being born suffering and dying in the flesh Answ. Now when J. Horn and T. Moor can truly prove nothing against us called Quakers they have invented these wicked lyes against us which we utterly deny and here charge them for forgers of lyes Job 13. 4. for we never