Selected quad for the lemma: life_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
life_n	death_n	eternal_a	wage_n	6,951	5	11.2154	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13812	An ansvvere to certein assertions of M. Fecknam, sometime abbot of Westminster which he made of late against a godly sermon of M. Iohn Goughes, preached in the Tower the xv. of Ianuarie. 1570. Seen and allowed.	Tomson, Laurence, 1539-1608.; Feckenham, John de, 1518?-1585, attributed name.; Gough, John, fl. 1561-1570, attributed name.	1570 (1570)	STC 24113; ESTC S113017	63,134	174

flesh Fecknam 2 That the holy Angels and Saincts of heauen may heare our prayers Salomon Ecclesiastes .ix. vers v. and .vj. For the lyuing know that they shal die but the dead know nothing at al neither haue they any more a rewarde for their remembrance is forgotten Also their loue and their hatred and their enuie is nowe perished and they haue no more portion for euer in all that is done vnder the sunne Fecknam 3 That onely fayth doth not iustifie S. Paule Rom. iij. vers xxviij and .xxx. Therefore we conclude that a man is iustified by faythe without the workes of the law For it is one God who shall iustifie circumcision of faith and vncircumcision through faith Fecknam 4 That euery sin is not mortall S. Iohn j. Ep. iij. vers iiij Whosoeuer committeth sinne transgresseth also the law for sin is the trāsgression of the law S. Paule Rom. vj. vers xxiij For the wages of sinne is death ▪ but the gift of God is eternall lyfe through Iesus Christ our Lord. To the right worshipfull Sir Frauncis Iobson Knight Liuetenaunt of the Tour Sir Henry Neuel knight and M. Pellam Lieuetenaunt of the Ordinaunce THere was deliuered vnto me vpon the .4 of March .1570 by a frend of mine a little pamflet written by M. Fecknam somtime Abbot of Westminster which he exhibited vnto your worshippes vppon demaund by you made of his liking of a godly Sermon preached by M. Goughe in the Toure the .15 of Ianuarie .1570 Which when I had red ouer I maruayled not a little bothe at the weakenesse of hys cauilling Obiections he vseth against suche godly poincts of Doctrine as he laboreth by forsing of Scriptures and Doctors to his purpose to ouerthrow and also at his boldnesse in offering the same vnto you For I thought vntill I had perused it that in so little a treatise so great ignorance of Scriptures of Doctors of the common Arte of Logicke which boyes after one or two yeares being in the vniuersities are not ignoraunt in could not haue ben foūd in him who carieth so great a name and countenaunce of learning Or at the least if his ignorance had bene such as by this I vnderstand it in dede to be that he coulde by politique silence haue concealed it and not by wryting to your worshippes men I doubte not but of perfecte knowledge and sound iudgement in al poynts of true religion reuealed both it and the weakenesse of their common cause which so fain he would support How be it for this latter in his Preamble he pretendeth some cause as the auoyding with your worships the opinion of obstinacie self wilfulnesse want of iust matter to mislike in the foresayd Sermon c and this in deede is but a bare pretence For the bitternesse of his stile and smothe scoffes which he vseth too oftē in so short a discourse vpon .iiij. point● sheweth he rather by these cauils sought to rid his stomake of a litle choler than any thing else or to abuse and seduce your worships as men altogether ignorant in these questions But yet I will thinke the best as the rule of charitie teacheth me and conceiue hope of his conuersion for which also I pray with my whole harte And in case he blame me as not iudging rightly of this his writing being therunto requested by you let him waigh wel his owne last words in his preface vnto you say plainly whether a simple plain meaning may be gathered of them they be these More seking to satisfie your request and demaūd than to minister any occasiō of further argument What meaneth he hereby Is he rather moued with satisfying your request thā the cause it self he standeth in which he wold make appeare to the world to be the truth Or if the truth of his .iiij. assertions did more moue him than your requestes why feareth he least by his wryting occasion of further argument touching these questions be ministred If he know that he hath héere by good argument mainteyned a good cause then is there no cause why he should feare further debating but he ought like a good minister and teacher stand and offer him self ready prepared to the defence thereof yea though it were with daunger and losse of his lyfe But yf he bée guiltie in his owne conscience of the naughtinesse of the cause and his owne weake proues why doth he so much abuse your worships with a shew of confutation of the truth What iust causes and true occasions haue lead him to reprehend so godly points of doctrine taught by M. Gough I referre to the iudgement of any indifferent and learned Reader I haue vsed as much breuitie as I could in aunswering his arguments that the reading therof might not bée tediouse to you And last of all I thought good in mine own behalfe lest some might thinke amisse of me for mainteyning the quarrell made agaynst an other man as one desirous of contention vayne glorie c. to proteste vnto your worshippes that the earnest request of my very friend who knew me to haue a little spare time and M. Gough too be otherwise more profitably occupied forced me to say somwhat in way of an aunswere to M. Fecknam that I speake nothing of the truth of the common cause of religiō which of it self ought to moue any man zelous in Gods religion to take pen in hand agaynst any that shall séeke to impugn the same Thus much I thought good to let you vnderstand of the occasion of my dealing herein and partly also for a péece of an aunswere to such talke as M. Fecknam in his preface directeth specially too your worships The Lord Iesus confirme you in all truth daily encreasing his knowledge and all other good giftes in you Amen 1 That it is not impossible to keepe Gods commaundements BEfore I come to your proues allegations I must say a word or two of your coloured art and goodly shew you make in your first proposition It is the fashion of Rhetoricians as you know especially when their cause is not all of the best therfore misdoute the euent of their action so to behaue them selues in their Exordium that they may at the least purchase thus much that they may be heard some by one meanes some by an other the worst is not by procuring an euill suspicion too his aduerse partie So is your dealing in this present case to be better heard peraduenture or to make your cause séeme to bée better you geue forth that in M. Goughes doctrine of the impossibilitie of kéeping Gods commaundementes he followeth the race of the Maniches and the Valentinians A gréeuous accusation yf it were true and worthy to cause his doctrine to bee reiected yf all that you speake were a Gospell But peraduenture you thought you hadde the sexton of Paules in hand when you presented this your writing to the worships of these in déede worshipfull godly gentlemen The matter is thus not

most fully sée know that which neyther eye hath séen neyther eare hath heard neyther at any time hath it entred into the hart of man A more ful knowledge a more ample sight a better vnderstāding thā this you cā not haue This we graūt yours we deny We graūt this also that we may make an end come to your arguments that the angels which God hath commaunded to waite vppon vs to guide vs in all our wayes to be round about vs to admonish vs and comfort vs ●o watche perpetually for our sauegard these angels sée and know what we do frō the vtmoste action to the inwardst thought if God so dispense vnto them and make them his ministers who is the sole and only searcher of hearts and raines knower of thoughts and mindes and yet foloweth it not that we must pray to them neither yet that other Sainctes do know what we do or thinke I say the dead the saincts do no more know what we do here while it is in doing than we know what they do and when they know any thing it is by after information or by the ministerie of the Angels as in like case they minister vnto vs So that certaintie you can haue none to found your prayers vpon for while you are praying they do not knowe And although you may alledge me som visions which may séeme to confirme your purpose putting the case I should graunt them yet can you no more proue that they knowe and vnderstand our doings than if in your dreame you should haue a thing opened vnto you by one which was sléeping when you slept nothing thought of you What if they haue care for vs being there as requisite too for that they bée mēbers with vs and charitie ceaseth not Do they therfore know what wée doo we haue care of them also and yet wée know not what they doe We loue them as whē they were here we laude and magnifie God that he hath dealt so louingly with thē we reioyce that they are already partakers of that whiche we looke hope for running the same race of faith and feare of god This care I saye we haue of them thus in charitie wée are affectioned towardes them yet knowe we not what they doe no more do they what we doe Wel nowe lette vs come to youre Arguments of Doctors Mayster Gough say you to proue that no Saints being dead can heare vs alleadged the saying of the Prophet Isai. c. Abrahā nesciuit nos c. That is sayth M. Goughe Now after they be dead they haue no maner of knowledge of vs but be cleane ignorant of things done here vpō the earth But S. Hierome hath an other interpretation which I thinke I may prefer before master Goughs saying Abraham nesciuit nos .i. Abraham non agnouit nos pro filijs Abraham hath not knowue vs that is Abraham hath not allowed or acknowledged vs for hys children and why Quia te offendimus bicause we haue offended thee saith S. Ierom. He saith not quia Abraham Israel mortui sunt Bicause Ahraham Israel be dead as if thereby they coulde haue no longer knowledge of them What if S. Hierom haue an other is M. Goughes therefore naught Nay but you had rather prefer S. Ieromes Do you think that M. Gough hath no authoritie for his Do you thinke that he hath not as good as S. Hierome If you think so I wil giue you to vnderstand the contrary If you do not thinke so why do you conceale the truthe and stand rather vpon man than vpon the word of God This is the miserie that you haue that whilest you will not hearken to the scriptures but what this man or that man sayth you wauer vp and down now alleaging one man now an other not knowing wel where to stand Wel I wil bring you two neither to be misliked in such cases the one comparable to Hierome in all respectes First Kimki on this place sayth al derech abi ve immi c. On this sort is it spoken in an other place Pater meus mater mea dereliquerunt me Dominus autem assumpsit me Quamuis enim pater noster Abraham multis iam preterlapsis seculis mortuus sit pater carnalis non nouerit filium aut nepotem suum nisi dum viuit tu tamen pater noster viuis duras de seculo in seculum ita vt opus non sit nobis clamare nisi ad te per omnes aetates tam quae preterierunt quàm quae futura sunt tu es pater noster tu redemptor noster ex omni afflictione in perpetuum nomē●uum erit super nos That is my father and my mother haue forsaken me but the Lord hath gathered me vp For although our father Abrahā were dead many many yeares agoe and a carnall Father doth not know his sonne or his nephew but while he liueth yet thou O father liuest and remainest for euer so that we haue no néed to cry vnto any other but vnto thée through out al ages as wel forepassed as to come thou art our father thou art our redéemer out of all trouble thy name shall be vpon vs for euer The other is S. Augustine whome you néed not to haue concealed if you had mynded the truth But if you shuld haue alleaged them bothe you could not haue tolde which way to haue gone Giuing his definite mynd sentence vppon these matters and questions he sayth thus vt volet accipiat quisque quod dicam c. Let euery man take as he listeth that which I will say If the soules of the departed did meddle with the affairs of the liuing did speake vnto vs when we sée them in visions to hold my peace of other my louing mother would no night forsake me which folowed me by Sea and by land that she might liue with me For God forbid that she should be made with a happie life so cruel that when any thing gréeueth my heart she should not comfort hir heauie sonne whom she would neuer sée sad But surely that is true which the godly Psalme sayeth My father and my mother haue forsaken me but the Lord hath gathered me vp Therfore if our fathers haue forsaken vs how do they communicate with our cares and affairs and if our Parents do not communicate or do not meddle what other are there of the dead which know what we doe and what we suffer Esay the Prophet sayeth for thou art our Father For Abraham hathe forgotten vs and Israell doth not knowe vs If so great Patriarkes did not knowe what was done to the people begotten of them to whome beléeuing God the people was promised of their stocke how do the dead know and helpe the affaires and doings of others How say we that they were well dealt withall which died before aduersitie came which folowed their death if so be that also after death

they féel what so euer things come to passe in the calamities of mannes lyfe Or peraduenture we erre in so saying and we thinke those quiet whome the vnquiet lyfe of the lyuing doth grieue And so forth alleaging as you knowe to the same purpose the promisse made to Iosias and so concluding sayeth thus Ibi ergo sunt spiritus defunctorum vbi non vident quaecunque aguntur aut eueniunt in ista vita hominibus Therfore the soules of the dead are there where they sée not whatsoeuer things are done or come to men in this lyfe Thus then you neaded not haue in such sort cast off Master Gough as though it were a heauie comparison betwixt him and Hierom He is as you sée as wel to be thought of as Hierome in that he hath for his part the whole Scriptures these two learned men Other I do not recken vp you your selfe acknowledge in your selfe that I might bring more But in this varietie of men what certaintie cā you haue for your conscience if you do not at the lēgth come to the Scriptures Wherein you can not find one word well taken whereby you may proue that the dead doe know our doings vnlesse it be by espetiall Reuelation or worke of GOD which you can neuer drawe to a rule As for the prosecuting of that manner of speache I doe not know you for I doe not acknowledge you I thinke there is no man so enuyous but will graunt you that truthe Sed quorsum illa to what purpose is that Although it be so taken in very many places yet why it should be so taken there I sée no reason I speake what I thinke I knowe there be interpreters as well one way as other But the circumstance of the text in my minde draweth that way You go further If this vvill not satisfie master Gough let him heare Sainct Augustine vvho shevveth vppon occasion of thys place in vvhat manner the Sainctes doe heare vs Per diuinam inquit potentiam Martyres viuorum rebus intersunt c. By diuine povver the Martyres are heere present in the dooings of those that be alyue for being dead by their ovvne proper nature to bee present in the doings of those that be aliue they can not Nowe you some thing chaunge your state and make Duo predicata where before you made but one Your first conclusion was That the Sainctes and Angels may or doe heare our Prayers Now you put in may by diuine power heare our Prayers And so you committe a fault which is called A secundum quid ad simpliciter Againe in Accidentibus communibus a specie ad genus saying thus The Martirs do heare vs therfore al Sainctes For your Doctor in your owne place alleaged maketh a difference betwixt them in this matter and sayeth Non igitur ideo putandum est viuorum rebus quoslibet interesse posse defunctos quoniam quibusdam sanandis vel alliunandis martyres adsunt sed ideo potius intelligendū est quod per diuinam c. Therfore it is not for that cause to be thought that euery one that is dead can be present in the doynges of those that bee alyue because the Martyres are present in healing and helping of some But therfore rather it is to bée vnderstoode that by the deuine power the martyres are present in the doyngs of those that bée aliue because the dead by theyr owne proper nature can not bée present in the doyngs of those that bée a lyue He concludeth a cleane contrarie position to yours saying that the martyrs are presente because the saincts can not bée And how the Martyres be present he sheweth in these woordes per diuinam potentiam by diuine power For this is not orderly but as he sayd before verū ista diuinitus exhibentur longe aliter quàm sese habet vsitatus ordo singulis creaturarum generibus attributus But these are exhibited from God far otherwise than the accustomed maner is whiche is giuen to all kind of creatures For not bycause that water was sodaynely turned intoo wine when God would therfore we ought not to discerne what water is in the proper order of elementes from the singularitie and strangenesse of this heauēly worke Take the beste of this for your purpose yet can you not come to that you woulde to make any certayne rule no not in the very martyres And so likewise touching this matter he confesseth of him self that it passeth his vnderstanding Leaue therefore these vayne speculations and content your self with that whiche God hath taught you you are sure that Christ dooth will heare you when soeuer you call on him in truth and veritie you are sure that what so euer you aske in his name it shal be giuen you that the Father may bée glorified why then rest vppon this suretie go not a stray when you may go right differre not your self to the night when you may walke in the light After this you descend from debating the matter by scripture and reason authorities ad factū what thei did as though this question betwixt vs and you were facti what hath bin done and not rather as it is in déed iuris what of right lawfully may and ought to be done to whiche purpose you alleadge twoo places oute of Augustine one out of Gregorie Nazianzene one out of Origine one out of Ephrem one of Hierome one of Chrisostom whose dooings bicause they haue no ground in gods woord neither better and more sure reasō than S. Augustine alleageth which are not sufficient for mée to rest my conscience von yet your promises being graūted the conclusion is very wyde I wishe you better to consider the case you stand in pardon me that I disalowe them For this I learne by Augustine that to speake in genere of the departed nescire quidem mortuos quid hic agatur That the dead can not tell what is done here whilest it is doing if they know it is after by relatiō saith he of thē which go frō hence vnto them yet not all but such things as they are suffered to tell and whiche they were suffered to remember and suche as they ought to heare to whome they tell them or else by the Angels whiche are here present with vs at oure doings they may heare some thing which he thinketh méete and conuenient to whom all things are subiecte If therefore he himself teache vs this that they do not know or they know after and not all but such as are necessarie for them to knowe and as he thinketh expedient that is master of all If he do contrarie to his doctrine commend his prayers to thē whiche as yet heare him not and when they shall or whither they shall at all he knoweth not you must giue me leaue to followe his doctrine if I thinke it better than his example His doctrine importeth some thing his example nothing Do as they teach you which sitte