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A06697 A profitable dialogue for a peruerted papist. Or a little labour of a lay men tending to the profit of a peruerted Papist: namely, by laying open vnto him his ovvne errour, in beleeuing that the Church of Rome cannot erre. Composed in dialogue maner, as it were betweene a simple lay man, and certayne graue diuines, and published onely for the benefit of the lay Papist. VVritten by R.M. gent. and student in Diuinity. R. M., student in divinity. 1609 (1609) STC 17149; ESTC S103258 25,816 46

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S. Iohn He himselfe doth expound how that may be done which he spake of what it is to eate his Body and drinke his blood He which eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood sayth he dwelleth in me u Iohn 6. 56. I●n him This it is then to eate that meate and drinke that blood to dwell in Christ and to haue Christ dwelling in him And by this he that dwelleth not in Christ and in whom Christ doth not dwell without doubt hee neither eates his flesh nor drinkes his blood spiritually although carnally and visibly hee presse with his teeth the Sacrament of his body and blood but rather hee doth eate and drinke the Sacrament of so great a thing to his owne Iudgement because hee presumes to come vncleane to the Sacraments of Christ which no man receyues worthily but hee which is cleane of whom it is sayd x Mat. ● 8. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God c. Lay. Then it séemes by thée contrary to the doctrine of the Church of Rome that the presence of Christ in the Sacrament is in such a spirituall maner that although the wicked may eate and drinke the same Sacrament vnworthily according to S. Paul y 1. Cor. 11. 27. yet they cannot by any meanes eate and drinke Christ himselfe the matter and substance thereof Whereby thou doost declare this thing to be an vnspeakeable mystery onely for the faithfull to vnderstand for it séemes here also by thée that none can receiue the Body of Christ but onely the liuely members of Christ that dwell in him so that as they dwell in Christ Christ dwelleth in them but this is not according to Transsubstantiation Therefore to satisfie our weake brethren speake yet more playne if thou canst reuerend Father and tell vs by some familiar example whether any can haue true life not eating and drinking that holy substance and also whether there bée any cause or spiritual sicknesse in man eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ to exclude him from that eternall life Aug. My sonne r In his ●6 Treatis vpon S. Iohn He hath not that life which doth not eate that Bread and drinke that Blood Indeed men may haue a temporall life without that but not at all the eternall He therefore which doth not eate his flesh nor drinke his blood hath not life in himselfe and he which eateth his flesh and drinketh his blood hath life He answereth to both because he sayd eternall It is not so in that meate which we receyue for the sustayning of this temporall life for he which shal not receyue it shall not liue yet for all that he shall not liue alwayes which doth receyue it for it may come to passe that many which haue taken that meate may dye by old age or by a disease or by some other cause But in this meate and drinke that is to say the Body and Blood of our Lord it is not so for both he which doth not receiue it hath not life and he which doth receyue it hath life and this likewise eternall Therefore he would haue this bread and drinke to be vnderstood the society of the body and his members a Iohn 14. 20. and 17. 21 22 23. which is the holy Church his Saints and faythfull c. The Sacrament of this thing that is to say of the vnity of the Body Blood of Christ is prepared on the Lords Table in some place dayly in some place at certayne times and is receyued from the Lords Table vnto some to life vnto some to destruction But the thing it selfe to which the Sacrament doth belong is to euery man to life to no man to destruction whosoeuer shall be partaker of it c. Lay. Here thou art most playne indéed that the wicked cannot eate and drinke Christ Iesus the Bread of life And by this also we finde that thou doost acknowledge according to S. Paul b 1. Cor. 10. 3 4 that the faithful Iewes did eate and drinke the same spirituall substance which we do but in their Sacramēts Christ to come in ours Christ is come the same spirituall vertue in both otherwise as thou doost affirme they could not haue entred into eternall life Aug. True my sonne c In his Booke of the profit of repentance Chap. 1. Whosoeuer in Manna vnderstood Christ did eate the same spirituall food which we do c. To the beleeuer it was neyther this nor that meate and drinke which belongs to the hungry and thirsty but to the beleeuer the same which is now for then Christ to come now Christ is come to come and is come are diuers words yet the same Christ c. Lay. What other difference is there betwéene their Sacramen●s and ours besides Christ to come and Christ is come Aug. d In his 26. T●eatis vpon S. Iohn In signes they are diuers but in the thing signifyed they are alike c. They did all drinke the same spirituall drinke but in the visible appearance they one thing we another but the same in spirituall vertue which that signifyed c. Hold firmely my sonne and make no doubt thereof e In his Booke to Peter the Deacon Chap. 18. 19. the same onely begotten Sonne the word made flesh to haue offered himselfe for vs a sweete smelling sauour to God f Ephe. 5. 2 A sacrifice and Hoste to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost beasts were sacrificed in the time of the old Testament by the Patriarks Prophets Priests and to whom now that is in the time of the new Testament with the Father and the holy Ghost with whom he is equall in diuinity the holy Catholike Church through the vniuersall world ceaseth not in fayth and loue to offer the sacrifice of Bread and wyne for in those carnall oblations there was a figuration of the flesh of Christ which for our sinnes he without sinne was to offer and of the Blood which he was to sheade for the remission of our sinnes But in this sacrifice there is a thankes-giuing and also a remembrance of the flesh of Christ which he did offer for vs and of the blood which the same God did shead for vs c. g In his 20 Booke against 〈◊〉 Chap. 2● Before the comming of Christ the flesh and blood of this Sacrifice was promised by oblations of similitudes in the Passion of Christ it was deliuered in the trueth it selfe After the Ascension of Christ it is celebrated by a Sacrament of remembrance c. Lay. We note here from thée one thing well worth the nothing against our aduersaries that is if Christ be really contayned in the Sacrifice of their Masse then Christ the second person in Trinity is offered to himselfe the second person in Trinity But we assure our selues that it cannot stand with thy grauity to allow of such absurdity Thou doost here call this 〈◊〉 The sacrifice of Bread
forme c. Compare the signe with the trueth thou shalt vnderstand the similitude for the figure ought to be like the trueth for truely that body hath the first forme and figure and circumscription and that I may say at once the substance of a body but it was made immortall after the resurrection c. Lay. Most true it is graue Father Christ hath still the true substance of a Body and therefore the signe and the thing signified being alike those Heretickes whosoeuer they be that séeme to proue the forme of Bread in the Sacrament to be there without the substance of Bread do thereby séeme to proue also Christ to a haue a fantasticall Body that is a Body in shew without the substance of a body But thou doost here most playnely confute that palpable absurdity therein thou art agréeable to the true doctrine of the Primitiue Church for what Christian liuing a thousand yeres since or vpwards did euer affirme such a reall presence in the Sacrament that thereby Christ God and man is to be swallowed into the bodyes of many damned creatures We find many proofes from Antiquity to the contrary as partly hath bene noted already and yet for more witnesse thereof we note S. Ambrose also who sayth playnely touching this sacred Bread euen Christ himselfe that it is not bread which goeth into the body h In his ● Booke of Sacraments Chap. 4. but the Bread of eternall life which strengthneth the substance of our soules c. He sayth not as some peruersly misconster him Non transi●e in corpus per nutritionem i Bellarm. vpon the Eucharist the 2. Booke 14. Chap. it passeth not through the body by nourishment but Non vadit in corpus it goeth not into the body c. Who then can mistake him here but he that wilfully makes himselfe ignorant euen he which by such vndirect dealing peruerts thy words also saying k Bellarm. in the same Booke Chap. 27. Where thou doost affirme the Bread and wine to remayne after sanctification both in substance nature figure and forme as they were before thou doost thereby meane onely the sensible accidents and visible formes do so remayne but the substance to be changed But if such weake defending of errours be allowed for good and lawfull in vayne then it is to bring any testimony from antiquity against Heretikes But we hope that such peruerse answeres from the peruerter may proue in good time a good motiue for the peruerted to looke about him betimes and not both to liue and dye a childe in vnderstanding for ignorance cannot excuse those that wilfully refuse to walke by the light of holy Scripture The word of God is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light vnto my paths saith the Prophet Dauid * Psalm 119. It is as a light shining in a dark place sayth S. Peter * 2. Pet. 1. By which we are giuen to vnderstand that as the Sunne giues light to the corporall eye so doth the holy Scripture giue light to the spirituall eye Whereupon it followes that if neyther our aduersaryes nor our selues would wilfully become blind and then trust to the leading of others we should soone all agrée in one outward profession for who is he that can beleeue contrary to that which he séeeth or where is that spirituall man so contentious as not to allow those Traditions and customes of the Church which are not contrary to the expresse word of God We grant from the Sacrament according to that trueth which we finde in holy Scripture * Iohn 6. 63. the true eating drinking of the flesh and blood of Christ spiritually we say word for word as Saint Basil said aboue a thousand yeeres since l In his 141. Epistle We eate his flesh and drinke his blood being made partakers of him by incarnation and sensible life of the word and wisdome for he called all his mysticall conuersation in the flesh flesh and blood and made manifest that doctrine which depends of his life actuall naturall and diuine by which the soule is nourished exercised and trayned vp to the contemplation of heauenly things c. but we deny such a grosse eating and drinking therein that thereby both the righteous and the vnrighteous are made partakers of Christ which doctrine is most manifest against the sacred Scripture m 1. Cor. 10. 21. we deny also such a grosse eating drinking therein that thereby Lay people must not communicate with the blessed cup of our Lord fearing lest they should shead his prectous blood vpon their garments or lest by the weakenesse of their stomackes they should bring vp againe their Creator by belchings and vomitings which absurdity the Church hath long since confuted as witnesseth S. Aug. n Against Faustus the 20 Booke and Chap. 13. for indéed according to the doctrine of her head Christ Iesus so doth the true Church teach alwayes But neuer did the true Church teach that our Sauiour Christ hath any reall being in the body of a wicked creature for Christ himselfe is most playne against that vayne doctrine And briefly to proue that to be true we will now set aside all other witnesses and proofes whatsoeuer and humbly beséech the author of this blessed Sacrament euen Iesus Christ himselfe to resolue vs herein Speake holy Lambe of God thou that art the onely Sauiour of the world speake so we most humbly beséech thée that thy words herein may proue a swéete sauour of life to the small remnant of thy holy Church in this corrupt age Teach vs swéete Lord whether any can haue true life without eating and drinking that blessed flesh and blood of thine and also whether any can misse of that true life eating and drinking the same blessed foode Christ My sonne o Iohn 6. 48. to 36. I am that Bread of life your fathers did eate Manna in the wildernesse and are dead This is that bread which came downe from heauen that he which eateth of it should not dye I am that liuing bread which came downe from heauen If any man eate of this bread he shall liue for euer and the bread that I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world c. Verily verily I say vnto you except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood ye haue no life in you Whosoeuer eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternall life and I will rayse him vp at the last day for my flesh is meate indeed and my blood is drinke indeed Lay. My Lord and God these words of thine are profound and to the spirituall man spirit and life although to the carnall man farre otherwise for notwithstanding thou hast commaunded vs all not to adde any thing to thy sacred word p Deut. 〈◊〉 2 and 12. 32. 〈◊〉 22. 18. yet these carnall-minded men can not vnderstand these thy comfortable speeches
prayed for the faith of S. Peter and so consequently for the faith of all his sucessours according to the opinion of the aduersary * In their Rhemish notes vpon the 28 of S. Luke verse 31. that it should neuer fayle But if any Bishop of Rome may proue a false Christian and liue so lewdly that he may dye a Reprobate then vndoubtedly euery Bishop of Rome is not the true successour of S. Peter vnlesse a true faith may contradict in maners the things which it professeth in words for it was a true faith in S. Peter which our Lord prayed for to continue in his Church and not a vaine fayth And if it be true that the Bishop of Rome may erre as he is man but not possible as he is Pope that is to say although in person he may erre in his priuate doctrine and maners yet not possible to erre iudicially or definitiuely then could it not be preiudiciall to the Church although Antichrist himselfe were Bishop of Rome * See S. Chrisost vpon the ● to the Th●ssa and S. Barna●d in h●s 123. Epistle and Vniuersall Bishop But according to diuine reason this séemes not agréeable to trueth Gregory My sonne If this be permitted to be lawfully spoken f In his 4. Booke and 36. Epistle the honor of all Patriarchies is denied and perhaps when he pe●isheth in errour which is called vniuers●ll then no Bishop is found to haue remayned in the state of trueth c. I say therefore the vniuersall Church g In his 6. Booke and Epi●tle 24. falleth to ruine if one Vniuersall fall But farre be this vanity and foolishness● from my eares c. * A true faith doth not contradict in maners the things which it professeth in words * for which Hom. 29 in Eu●ng Tit. 1. cause it was sayd of certayn false Christiās by S. Paul * that they confessed God in words but denied him in deeds by S. Iohn * that whosoeuer sayth he knoweth ● Iohn 2. God and keepeth not his cōmaundements is a Lyar Which being so we must examine the trueth of our faith by consideration of our life for then not otherwise are we true Christians if we fulfill in works that whereof we haue made promise in words c. Lay. Would to God thy successours had bene of the same mind herein as thou and thy predecessours were for then the Church vniuersally could neuer haue bene so much diuided as it hath bene for most true it is according to thy speach that within lesse time then this 200. yéeres past hardly was there a Bishop to be foūd remayning in that sincere and pure doctrine taught in the Primitiue Church but being reuolted and departed from that sound doctrine they all from the highest to the lowest taught lyes in hypocrisie euen as Saint Paul prophested of them forbidding to marry h 1. Tim. 4 1 2 3. and commaunding to abstayne from meates lawfully to be eaten with other such like errours and deceyueable doctrines But the principall cause of such vniuersall euils thou hast playnely declared to procéede from the pride of him called vniuersall Bishop which man wée take to be no better then Antichrist himselfe for according to S. Paul i 2. Thesse 2. 4. he sits hypocritically in the Temple of God in word The seruant of seruants but in déede extolling himselfe aboue all power on earth for by vsurped authority he séekes not onely to be supreme head ouer all Bishops but ouer all Chr●stian Kings also which loftynesse was ney●her in thée nor in thy predecessours and that thou doost make most manifest not onely by these playne speaches here vttered but elsewhere also k In hi● 38. Epistle Chap. 82. with which we restfully satisfied herein And so we will conclude this first part with a few words taken frō our late Minister but now an Apos●ata Theophilus Higgons * Written since hi● re●o●t in his first Motiue Page 64. because they cōtaine a truth touching this poynt contrary to himself as thus It was a tyranny in Mezentius sayth he to bynd liuing men vnto dead carkeyses But the wisdome of God doth assure me and me also that he will not tye the lyuing body of his Church vnto the dead and putrified members thereof The end of the first part The second part treating of the Sacrament of the Blessed Body and Blood of our LORD and Sauiour Iesus Christ NOw diuine Augustine let vs go forward in that principall poynt touching the holy Sacrament let vs certaynely know thy mind whether Christ be there after a spirituall maner onely for the faithfull to eate and drinke or after a corporal and carnall maner as foode both for the worthy and vnworthy receyuer We find in holy Scripture that our Sauiour called l Iohn 6. 35. and 10. 7. and 15. 1. himselfe Bread called himselfe a Doore called himselfe a Vine These things in a spiritual sence we know to be truely and properly spoken yet according to the letter we take them figuratiuely to be spoken But wée would gladly vnderstand from thée what our Sauiour meant when he called Bread his body m Mat. 26. 26. and also what he meant when he sayd Exceptye eate n Iohn 〈…〉 the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood ye haue no life in you c. Whether these speaches according to the letter were figuratiue or proper Aug. My sonne Our Lord doubted not to say This is my body o Against Adamantus Chap. 12 when he gaue the signe of his Body c. p Vpon the 3. Psal Christ admitted Iudas to that Banket in which he did deliuer to his disciples the figure of his Body c. Note this also If it be a speach of commaundement eyther forbidding a mischieuous deed or a hainous fact q In his ● Booke of Christian doctrine Chap. 16. or commaunding a profitable thing or a good deed it is not figuratiue But if it seeme to cōmaund a wicked deed and a naughty fact or to forbid a profitable thing or a good deed it is figuratiue Vnlesse ye shall eate sayth he the flesh of the Sonne of man and drinke his blood ye shall not haue life in you c. He doth seeme to commaund a hainous or wicked deed It is a figure therefore commaunding vs to communicate with the passion of our Lord and sweetely and profitably to lay vp in memory that his flesh was crucifyed and wounded for vs c. r Vpon the 98. Psalm The words which I haue spoken vnto you sayth Christ is spirit and life s Iohn 6. 63. Vnderstand spiritually that which I haue spoken vnto you Ye shall not eate this Body which ye see neyther shall ye drinke that blood which they shall sheade that crucify me I haue commended vnto you a certayne Sacrament which being spiritually vnderstood shall giue you life c. t ●n his 2● ●reati● vpon
vnlesse they adde thereunto some matter of their owne deuising as namely by adding a condition to the holy text more then thou didst there expresse * Bellarmine in his 〈…〉 as though there were a defect in thy word by which all things are made perfit and by which at the last day they shal● iudge both the quicke and the dead But full well do thy faithfull people know by the direction of thy holy spirit that thou giuest not thy selfe for foode to any reprobate and vnworthy creature for thou sayst here most playnely that whosoeuer eateth and drinketh thy flesh and blood hath eternall life and therefore although the Sacrament thereof may be eaten and drunken both by the worthy and vnworthy receiuer as witnesseth thine Apostle Paul q 1. Cor. 11. 27. yet that blessed foode it selfe cannot so be eaten and drunken for the vertue thereof is to giue life to all that eates and drinks it and this is thy promise which can neuer be broken But most gracious Lord forasmuch as there be yet many weake people that cannot well vnderstand thée herein without adding to these thy words this word worthyly resolue them we humbly beséech thée whether it be so or not that some professed Christians may eate and drinke this sacred banket of thine euen thy selfe vnworthily and so dye in their sinnes as the vnworthy and faithlesse Iewes did notwithstanding they did eate Manna Speake so vnto them good Lord that they may both heare and vnderstand Christ My sonne Let those weake people of little faith marke well here what I say vnto them Haue not I graciously giuen you warning by my sacred word saying r Math. 16. ● and 15. 9. Take heede and beware of the leauen of the Pharises and Sadduces in vaine they worship me teaching for doctrines mens precepts Haue not I taught you by mine Apostle Paul faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God * Rom. 10. 1● Iohn 8. 4● Mark 1● 24. He that is of God heareth Gods wordes c. * Iohn 5. 39. Are ye not therfore deceiued because ye know not the Scriptures neyther the power of God * Search the Scriptures My sheepe heare my voyce and I know them Iohn 10. 27. and 12. 48. and 14. 6. Luke ●1 23. and they follow me He that refuseth me and receyueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken it shall iudge him in the last day I am the Way the Trueth the Life No man commeth vnto the Father but by me * Iohn 6. 〈…〉 He that is not with me is against me and he that gathereth not with me scattereth but * He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood dwelleth in me and I in him As that liuing Father hath sent me so liue I by the Father and he that eateth me euen he shall liue by me Note well here what I say I speake not one thing and meane an other I make not my promise so absolutely and meane it but conditionally I say not he that eateth me worthily because no vnworthy creature that shall dye in his sinne can eate me And to make that most playne vnto you I say againe as I haue sayd already This is that bread which came downe from heauen not as your fathers haue eaten Manna and are dead he that eateth of this bread shall liue for euer c. Lay. For this thy playne declaration all prayse be giuen vnto thée O Lord for hereby all may discerne most clearely that thou doost not commit thy selfe to vnfaithfull creatures and to be foode for the reprobate as Iudas and such like We therefore most humbly pray thée to open the eyes of these blinde weakelings which by too much establishing the doctrines of men go about to contradict thée herein and so inspire their heartes with the grace of thy holy spirit that they may thereby discerne the onely cause of their great blindnesse But the same cause being by thy gracious help taken away they shall then clearely sée to séeke and find euen according to thy diuine direction ſ Math. ● 7. Let them sée O Lord that their Church of Rome doth yet erre and will erre still vntill shée acknowledge her owne weakenesse that she may erre But so aboundant is thy goodnesse mercy towards repentant sinners that if she would in due time repent her former errours with that vayne and presumptuous opinion touching her supposed purity in her owne doctrine generally no doubt thou wouldst not onely pardon all her erronious doctrines and superstitious cerimonies but also restore her to her first dignity and commendation and cause all her good and laudable Traditions and Customes which now in respect of her wilfull blindnesse in some poynts are little or nothing regarded by a great number to be as highly estéemed and as duely obserued as euer heretofore they haue bene for thy eternall wisedome doth more respect the good and faithfull intent of the dooer then the déed done whatsoeuer it be because whatsoeuer is not of true faith séeme it neuer so holy in the sight of man is no better then sinne in thy infallible Iudgement * Rom. 14. 23. In consideration whereof we most humbly beséech thée also to encrease in vs Protestants true and liuely faith which alwayes worketh by loue that we may be all in generall more zealous in thy seruice then hither to we haue bene for we here acknowledge before thée that knowest the secrets of all hearts who also hereafter shalt be our Iudge the knowledge without true zeale is more vnprofitable in thy sight then zeale without knowledge t Math. 21. 28. to 32. Luke 12. 47 48. Iohn 9. 41. Actes 10. 1. 10 5. Rom. ● 〈◊〉 5. 6. therefore as we professe thée in words so good Lord let vs expresse thée in workes that we may not be reckoned in the number of those foolish men that build vpon sand that is those that heare thy words and do them not u Math. ● 26. 27. We professe before thy diuine Maiesty that none can be saued but those that haue a faith working by loue x Gala. ● 6. 1. Tim. 1. ● Tit. 3. 8. Iames. 2. 20. other faiths we hold as dead and vayne in respect of Iustification but that faith onely which worketh by loue we hold to iustifie without the workes of the law euen as thine holy Apostle hath taught vs. y Rom. 3 ●8 Therefore for the great loue in thée declared vnto vs when thou didst suffer torments death for our sinnes we beséech thée swéete Iesus so to blesse the hearts of all true Christians that they may all from hencefoorth both liue and dye in peace and vnity Behold sayth thy Prophet Dauid * Psalm 1● how good how comely a thing it is brethrē to dwell euen together It is like the precious oyntment vpon the head that runneth downe vpon the beard euen vnto Aarons beard which went downe on the border of his garments and as the dew of Hermon which falleth vpon the Mountaynes of Zion for there the Lord appoynted the blessing and life for euer Let thine heauenly blessing therefore so blesse the Vniuersall Church here on earth that it may euen now without any more controuersies conclude a spirituall marriage as it were betwéene faith and workes that so wée may all both truely glorifie thée in this world also be made partakers with thée of that euerlasting felicity in the next world euen in that holy place of en●lesse ioy which from the foundations of the world hath bene prepared for thine elect z Mar● ●● 24 by thine heauenly Father our onely God and Creator to whom with thée our swéete Redéemer and the holy Ghost our sanctifier thrée persons and one euerliuing God be ascribed all prayse power honor dominion and glory both now and for euermore Amen FINIS Let no man deceiue himselfe If any man among you seeme to be wise in this world let him be a foole that he may be wise for the wisdome of this world is foolishnesse with God c. 1. Cor. 3. 18 19. Laus Deo et pax Christianis Glory be to God and peace among Christians Faults escaped In Page 5. line 23. for a principall Read the principall Page 12. line 24. for sayth he knoweth God Read sayth he knoweth God Page 24. line 5. in the mergent for Page 18. Read Page 15.