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A09108 A revievv of ten publike disputations or conferences held vvithin the compasse of foure yeares, vnder K. Edward & Qu. Mary, concerning some principall points in religion, especially of the sacrament & sacrifice of the altar. VVherby, may appeare vpon how vveake groundes both catholike religion vvas changed in England; as also the fore-recounted Foxian Martyrs did build their new opinions, and offer themselues to the fire for the same, vvhich vvas chiefly vpon the creditt of the said disputations. By N.D.; Review of ten publike disputations. Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610. 1604 (1604) STC 19414; ESTC S105135 194,517 376

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of Christ. How do they affirme saith S. Irenaeus against certayne heretiks that denied the resurrection that our flesh shall come to corruption and not receaue life againe vvhich is nourished by the body and bloud of Christ And againe Ex quibus augetur consistit carnis nostrae substantia Of which body and bloud of Christ the substance of our flesh is encreased and consisteth And Tertullian caro corpore sanguine Christi vescitur c. Our flesh doth feed on the body and bloud of Christ. And marke that he saith the flesh and not only the soule And Iustine in his second Apology to the Emperour Antoninus talkinge of the Sacrament saith it is cibus quo sanguis carnesque nostrae aluntur The meat wherwith our bloud and flesh is fedd and to this manner of speach appertayne those sayings of S. Chrysostome Altare meum cruentum sanguine my Altar that is made redd with bloud Where he speaketh in the person of Christ. And againe to him that had receaued the Sacrament dignus es habitus qui eius carnes lingua tangeres Thou are made worthy to touch with thy tongue the flesh of Christ And yet further in another place Thou seest Christ sacrificed in the Altar the Priest attendinge to his sacrifice and powring out prayers the multitude of people receauinge the Sacrament praetioso illo sanguine intingi rubefieri To be died and made read with that pretious bloud All which speaches and many more that for breuity I pretermitt though they tend to a certayne exaggeration as hath byn said yet do they plainly declare the sense iudgement and beleefe of the Fathers in this article and so albeit literally and in rigour they be not in all respects verified yet need we no better arguments to certifie vs of the Fathers meaninges then these to witt how farre they were of from the Protestants opinions in this mystery 89. And truly yf we would now put downe heere on the contrary side the Prorestants assertions and their cold manner of speaches in this behalfe and compare them with this vehemency of the Fathers we should presently see a wonderfull difference I will touch some few only conteyned in this booke First they say and yt is a common refuge of Cranmer and the rest in this disputation as you haue heard that their communion-bread is Christs true body as S. Iohn Baptist was true Elias Item That yt is Christs body as the doue was the holy-ghost Item That the body of Christ is eaten in the Sacrament of the Altar no otherwise then yt is in baptisme Item That infants when they be baptized do eate the body of Christ also Item That Christs body is in the Sacracrament as when two or three are gathered togeather in his name Item That the body of Christ is eaten in the Sacrament as yt is eaten when wee read scriptures or heare sermons Item That the breakinge of Christs body is nothinge but the breaking of the scriptures to the people And these are the common phrases of all lightly For I lett passe many particular assertions of some much more cold and contemptible then these wherby yow may easily se● the difference of estimation reuerence respect and beleefe betweene them and the auncient Fathers 90. And on the other side he that will consider the great care and warynesse which the said Fathers did vse in speakinge properly and exactly as well in other mysteryes articles of our faith as in this shall easily see that they could not fall into such excesse of speach with open reprehension contradiction of others yf their meaninge had not byn euident and the doctrine Catholike and generally receaued which they endeauoured to inculcate by these speaches for so much as we are taught by all antiquity that there was such exact rigour vsed in this behalfe in those dayes that a word or sillable could not be spoken amisse without present note or checke And S. Hierome saith that sometymes for one only vvord heretiks haue byn cast out of the Church And Saint Basill being intreated and vrged by a Gouernour of Constantius the Arrian Emperour to accomodate himselfe in manner of speach only about two words homiousion and homousion which are not said the gouernour found in scripture he answered him noe that for one Sillable he vvould offer his life yf it vvere need And the like exactnesse did the anciēt Fathers of the Coūcell of Ephesus shew afterwards in standinge so resolutely for the word Deipara mother of God against Nestorius refusing the vse of the other word Christipara mother of Christ though the one the other of the words refused to witt homiousion Christipara in their senses are true but for that some hereticall meaninge might lurke therin they were refused 91. And to conclude yf antiquity was so carefull and vigilant to exclude dangerous incommodious speaches in other articles how much more would yt haue byn in this also of the reall presence yf the said Fathers speaches before rehearsed had not byn true as in the Protestants sense they cannot be but must needs tend to most dangerous error of misbeleefe and idolatry And consequently there is no doubt but that they would haue byn reproued by other Fathers yf the Protestants opinions had byn then receaued for truth And this shall suffice for this Chapter OF THE TVVO OTHER ARTICLES ABOVT Transubstantiation and the Sacrament what passed in this Disputation CHAP. VI. HAVINGE handled more largely then was purposed at the beginninge so much as apperteyneth to the first article of the reall-presence as the ground and foundation of the other two I meane to be very breefe concerninge the rest as well for that in the Oxforddisputations there was scarse any thinge handled therof but only some demonstrations out of the Fathers alleaged to Latymer which he as yow haue heard could not aunswere about the third and last point as also for that whatsoeuer was treated therof in the disputations at Cambridge and in the Conuocation house especially about Transubstantiation hath byn aunswered for the most part in our former treatise about the reall presence And albeit it was some art of the Sacramentaryes in the beginninge of these controuersies vnder K. Edward to runne from the discussion of the principall point as more cleerly against them vnto the question of Transubstantiation for that might seeme to yeld them some more shew of matter or obiections to cauill at as before we haue declared yet when the matter commeth to examination they haue as little for them in this as in the other or rather lesse for that the other to witt the reall-presence or being of Christ really and substantially present in the Sacrament hauinge byn so euidently proued against them as before yow haue seene this other of Transubstantiation being but modus essen●i the manner how Christ is there little importeth them nay
gall vttered in the preface therof against this disputation concludeth the same with these passionate words as they are in Fox 77. Thus vvas ended the most glorious disputation of the most holy Fathers Sacrificers Doctors and Maisters vvho fought most manfully for their God and Gods for their faith and felicity for their countrey and kitchen for their beuty and belly vvith triumphant applauses and famous of the vvhole vniuersity So hee And by this yow may know the man and how much his words are to be credited yow hauing considered what hath byn laid downe before by Fox his owne report touching the substance of the disputation and authorityes of Fathers alleaged and examined and shifted of though in the forme of scholasticall disputation and vrging arguments yt may be there were some disorders yet that maketh not so much to the purpose how arguments were vrged against them as how they were aunswered by them and yet could not the disorder be so great as it was vnder Ridley himselfe in the Cambridge-disputation as is most euident to the reader by Fox his owne relation who as before I haue noted is alwayes to be presumed to relate the worst for vs and the best for himselfe in all these actions 78. Wherfore yt is not a little to be considered what was the difference in substance or substantiall proofes brought forth in the Cambridge Protestant-disputations vnder K. Edward and these Oxford Catholike-disputations vnder Q. Mary and whether Doctor Ridley that was moderator of those or Doctor VVeston prolocutor in these did best vrge or solue arguments against their aduersaryes for that this consideration and comparison only will giue a great light to discerne also the difference of the causes therin defended One thinge also more is greatly in my opinion to be weighed in this matter which is that the said auncient Fathers hauinge to persuade so high and hard a mystery as this is that Christs true and naturall flesh and bloud are really vnder the formes of bread and wyne by vertue of the Priests consecration they were forced to vse all the manner of most significant speaches which they could diuise to expresse the same and to beate yt into the peoples heads and mynds though contrary to their senses and common reason and therby to fly from the opposite heresie and infidelity of our Sacramentaryes lurkinge naturally in the harts of flesh and bloud and of sensuall people but synce that tyme by Sathans incytation broached and brought forth publikely into the world For meetinge wherwith the holy prouidence of almighty God was that the forsaid Fathers should by all sorts of most significant speaches phrases as hath byn said so cleerly lay open their meanings in this matter as no reasonable man can doubt therof and not only this but also that they should vse certaine exaggerations the better to explane themselues such as they are wont to do in other controuersies also when they would vehemently oppose themselues against any error or heresie as by the examples of Saint Augustine against the Pelagians in behalfe of Grace and against the Manichees in the defence of Free-will And of S. Hierome against Iouinian for the priuiledge of Virginity aboue marriage and other like questions wherin the said Fathers to make themselues the better vnderstood do vse sometymes such exaggeratiue speaches as they may seeme to inclyne somewhat to the other extreme which indeed they do not but do shew therby their feruour in defence of the truth and hatred of the heresie which they impugne 79. And the like may be obserued in this article of the reall-presence of Christs sacred body in the Sacrament of the Altar which being a mystery of most high importance and hardest to be beleeued as aboue humayne sense and reason and therfore called by them the myracle of mysteryes yt was necessary for them I say to vse as many effectuall wayes as they possible could for persuadinge the said truth vnto the people and for preuenting the distrustfull cogitations and suggestions both of humayne infirmity and diabolicall infidelity against the receaued faith and truth of this article and so they did not only vsinge most cleere plaine effectuall and significant manner of expounding themselues and their meaninge but many such exaggerations also as must needs make vs see the desire they had to be rightly and fully vnderstood therein For better consideration of which point being of singular moment as hath byn said the reader shall haue a little patience whilst I detayne my selfe somewhat longer then I meant to haue done in layinge forth the same before him 80. And first of all concerninge the effectuall speaches for vtteringe the truth of their beleefe in this article yow haue heard much in the former disputation and heere we shall repeat some points againe which in effect are that wheras the said Fathers founded themselues ordinaryly vpon those speaches of our Sauiour This is my body vvhich shal be giuen for yow my flesh is truly meate and my bloud is truly drinke The bread vvhich I shall giue yow is my flesh for the life of the vvorld and other like sentences of our Sauiour the Fathers do not only vrge all the circumstances heere specified or signified to proue yt to be the true naturall and substantiall body of Christ as that yt was to be giuen for vs the next day after Christs words were spoken that yt was to be giuen for the life of the whole world that yt was truly meate and truly Christs flesh but do adde also diuers other circumstances of much efficacy to confirme the same affirminge the same more in particular that it is the very same body which was borne of the blessed Virgin the very same body that suffered on the Crosse corpus affixum verberatum crucifixum cruentatum lanceae vulneratum saith S. Chrysostome the selfe-same body that was nayled beaten crucisied blouded wounded with a speare is receaued by vs in the Sacrament Whervnto S. Austen addeth this particularity that yt is the selfe-same body that walked heere amonge vs vpon earth As he vvalked heere in flesh saith he amonge vs so the very selfe same flesh doth he giue to be eaten and therfore no man eateth that flesh but first adoreth at and Hisichius addeth that he gaue the selfe-same body vvherof the Angell Gabriell said to the Virgin Mary that it should be conceaued of the holy Ghost And yet further yt is the same body saith S. Chrysostome that the Magi or learned men did adore in the manger But thou dost see him saith he not in the manger but in the Altar not in the armes of a vvoman but in the hands of a Priest The very same flesh saith S. Austen againe that sate at the table in the last supper and vvashed his disciples seet The very same I say did Christ giue with his owne hands to his disciples vvhen he said take eate
againe exhibited and confirmed and this not by exposition of their owne heads only as sectaryes do but by intendement and interpretation of the grauest and most ancient Fathers that haue liued in the Church of God from age to age who vnderstood so the said figures and foreshewinges of the old Testament As for example the bread and wine misteriously offered to almighty God by Melchisedeck King and Priest who bare the type of our Sauiour Gen. 14. Psalm 109. Heb. 7. The shew-bread amonge the Iewes that only could be eaten by them that were sanctified Exod. 40. c. Reg. 21. The bread sent miraculously by an Angell to Elias whereby he was so strengthened as he trauayled 40. dayes without eating by vertue only of that bread These three sorts of bread to haue byn expresse figures of this Sacrament and of the trew flesh of Christ therein conteined do testifie by one consent all the ancient Fathers as S. Cyprian lib. 2. epist. 3. Clem. Alexand. lib. 4. Strom. Ambros. lib. 4. de Sacram. cap. 3. Hier in cap. 1. ad Titum Chrysost. hom 35. in Gen. August lib. 2. cont litteras Petii cap. 37. Cyrill Catechesi 4. Mystag Arnobius Eusebius Gregorius and many others 14. Three other figures there are not expressed in the forme of bread but in other things more excellēt then bread as the paschall lambe Exod. 12. Leuit. 23. The bloud of the Testament described Exod. 24. Heb. 9. And fulfilled by Christ Luc. 22. when he said This cupp is the new Testament in my bloud and againe This is my bloud of the new Testament Matth. 26. The manna also sent by God from heauen was an expresse figure of this Sacrament as appeareth by the words of our Sauiour Ioan. 6. and of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. Out of all which figures is inferred that for so much as there must be great difference betweene the figure and the thing prefigured no lesse yf we beleeue S. Paul then betweene a shaddow the body whose shaddow yt is yt cannot be imagined by any probability that this Sacrament exhibited by Christ in performance of those figures should be only creatures of bread and wine as Sacramentaryes do imagine for then should the figures be eyther equall or more excellent then the thing prefigured yt selfe for who will not confesse but that bread for bread Elias his bread made by the Angell that gaue him strength to walke 40. dayes vpon the vertue therof was equall to our English-ministers Communion-bread and that the manna was much better 15. And yf they will say for an euasion as they do that their bread is not common bread but such bread as being eaten and receaued by faith worketh the effect of Christs body in them and bringeth them his grace we answeare that so did these figures and Sacraments also of the ould Testament being receaued by faith in Christ to come as the ancient Father and Preachers receaued them And for so much as Protestants do further hould that there is no difference betweene the vertue efficacy of those old Sacramēts and ours which we deny yt must needs follow that both we they agreeinge that the Fathers of the old Testament beleeued in the same Christ to come that we do now being come their figures and shaddowes must be as good as our truth in the Sacrament that was prefigured if it remaine bread still after Christs institution and consecration But Catholike Fathers did vnderstand the matter farre otherwise and to alleage one for all for that he spake in the sense of all in those dayes Saint Hierome talking of one of those forsaid figures to witt of the shew-bread and comparinge yt with the thinge figured and by Christ exhibited saith thus Tantum interest c. There is so much difference betweene the shew-bread and the body of Christ figured therby as there is difference betweene the shaddow and the body whose shaddow yt is and betweene an Image and the truth which the Image representeth betweene certaine shapes of things to come and the things themselues prefigured by those shapes And thus much of figures presignifications of the old Testament 16. In the new Testament as hath byn said are conteyned both the promise of our Sauiour to fullfill these figures with the truth of his flesh which he would giue to be eaten in the Sacrament as also the exhibition and performance therof afterward the very night before his passion with a miraculous confirmation of the same by S. Paul vpon conference had therin with Christ himselfe after his blessed assension The promise is conteyned in the sixt Chapter of S. Iohns ghospell where our Sauiour foretelleth expressely that he would giue his flesh to vs to be eaten for that except vve did eat the same vve could not be saued that his flesh vvas truly meat and his bloud truly drinke and that his flesh that he would giue vs to eat vvas the same that vvas to be giuen for the life of the world All which speaches of our Sauiour expounded vnto vs in this sense for the reall presence of his flesh in the Sacrament by the vniuersall agreeinge consent of auncient Fathers must needs make great impression in the hart of a faithfull Christian man especially the performance of this promise ensuing soone after vvhen Christ being to depart out of this world and to make his last will and Testament exhibited that which heere he promised takinge bread brake and distributed the same sayinge this is my body that shal be deliuered for yow which words are recorded by three seuerall Euangelists and that with such significant and venerable circumstances on our Sauiours behalfe of feruent prayer washinge his Apostles feet protestation of his excessiue loue and other deuout and most heauenly speaches in that nearnesse to his passion as well declared the exceeding greatnesse of the mistery which he was to institute whervnto if we add that excellent cleare cōfirmation of S. Paul who for resoluing doubts as it seemed had conference with Christ himselfe after his ascension for before he could not he being no Christian when Christ ascended the matter will be more euident His words are these to the Corinth Ego enim accepi à Domino quod tradidi vobis c. For I haue receaued from our Lord himselfe that which I haue deliuered vnto yow about the Sacrament and do yow note the word for importinge a reason why he ought specially to be beleeued in this affayre for so much as he had receaued the resolution of the doubt frō Christ himselfe And then he setteth downe the very same words againe of the Institution of this Sacrament that were vsed by Christ before his passion without alteration or new exposition which is morally most certayne that he would haue added for clearinge all doubts yf there had byn any other sense to haue byn gathered of them then the plaine words themselues
mynds haue trifled but it is truly the very body and bloud of our Sauiour indeed And finally the whole generall Councell of Nice the second aboue 800. yeares past hath these words do yow read as longe as yow vvill yow shall neuer find Christ or his Apostles or the Fathers to haue called the vnhloudy sacrifice of Christ offered by the Priest an image or representation but the very body and bloud of Christ it selfe And could the auncient Fathers speake more effectually properly or cleerly then this 85. And yet he that will examine and weigh their sayings a man exactly shall find them to speake in a certaine manner more effectually for that they did study as we haue said how to vtter their meaninge with emphasie S. Hilary vseth this kind of argument yf the word of God were truly made flesh then do we truly receaue his flesh in the Lords supper and therby he is to be steemed to dwell in vs naturally S. Cyrill proueth not only a spirituall but a naturall and bodily vnion to be betweene vs and Christ by eatinge his flesh in the Sacrament Theodorete doth proue that Christ tooke flesh of the blessed Virgin and ascended vp with the same and holdeth the same there by that he giueth to vs his true flesh in the Sacrament for that otherwayes he could not giue vs his true flesh to eate yf his owne flesh were not true seeing that he gaue the same that he carryed vp and retayneth in heauen S. Irenaeus S. Iustine S. Chrysostome do proue not only this but the resurrection also of our bodyes by the truth of Christs flesh in the Sacracrament for that our flesh ioyninge with his flesh which is immortall ours shal be immortall also And the same Saint Irenaeus also doth proue further that the great God of the ould Testament creator of heauen and earth was Christs Father for proofe wherof he alleageth this reason that Christ in the Sacrament did fullfill the figures of the old Testament that in particular wherin bread was a figure of his flesh which he fulfilled saith Irenaeus makinge yt his flesh indeed 86. I passe ouer many other formes of speaches no lesse effectuall which doe easily declare the Fathers mynds and meaninges in this point as that of Optatus Mileuitanus who accused the Donatists of sacriledge horrible wickednesse for hauinge broken downe Catholike Altars wheron the body and bloud of Christ had byn borne VVhat is so sacrilegious saith he as to breake downe scrape and remoue the Altars of God on vvhich your selues haue sometymes offered and the members of Christ haue byn borne c. VVhat is an Altar but the seate of the body and bloud of Christ and this monstrous villany of yours is doubled for that yow haue broken also the chalices vvhich did beare the bloud of Christ himselfe So he And is there any Protestant that will speake thus at this day or doth not this reprehension agree fully to Protestants that haue broken downe more Altars and chalices then euer the Donatists did Saint Leo the first saith that the truth of Christs true body and bloud in the Sacrament was so notorious in his dayes vt nec ab insantium linguis taceretur That very infants did professe the same And in the same sermon he saith that the body of Christ is so receaued by vs in the Sacrament vt in carnem ipsius qui caro nostra factus est transeamus that we should passe into his flesh who by his incarnation is made our flesh Saint Chrysostome in many places of his works doth vse such deuout re●orent and significant speaches of that which is conteyned in the Sacrament vnder the formes of bread wyne after consecration as no doubt can be of his meaninge whereof yow haue heard diuers points before in the disputations as that it deserued the highest honour in earth that he did shew it lyinge vpon the Altar that the Angells descended at the tyme of consecration and did adore Christ there present vvith tremblinge and seare and durst not looke vpon him for the Maiestie of his presence And other such speaches which is conforme to that before cyted in the disputation out of the Councell of Nice Credamus iaecere in illa mensa sacra agnum Det à Sacerdotibus sacri●icatum Let vs beleeue to lye on that holy table the lambe of God sacrificed by Priests And is there any Protestant that will speake thus 87. But aboue all the rest are those speaches which before I said to tend to a certeyne exaggeration as that our flesh is turned into his flesh by receauinge the blessed Sacrament that our flesh is nourished by his and that of two fleshes there is made but one flesh Whervnto do appertayne not only those former phrases which already yow haue heard of the naturall and corporall vnity which the Fathers do so often inculcate to be betweene Christ and vs by eatinge his flesh in the Sacrament that we are brought therby into one masse or substance of flesh with him but many other like significant manners for vtteringe their mynds as that of S. Chrysostome he nourisheth vs vvith his owne body and doth ioyne and conglutinate our flesh to his And againe That by his body giuen vs in the Sacrament Se nobis commiscuit in vnum nobiscum redegit He hath mixt himselfe to vs and brought himselfe and vs into one body and flesh And yet further he doth permitt himselfe not only to be handled by vs but also to be eaten and our teeth to be fastened vpon his flesh and vs to be filled with the same flesh which is the greatest point of loue saith Saint Chrysostome that possible can be imagined So he And conforme to this S. Cyrill of Alexandriae vttereth himselfe after another sort for he vseth the example of leuen which Saint Paul doth touch in his epistle to the Corinthians when he saith that a little leuen doth leuen a whole bach euen so saith S. Cyrill the flesh of Christ ioyned to our flesh doth leuen or pearse through it and conuert it into it selfe And in another place he vseth this similitude that as vvhen yow take a peece of vvax melted at the fire and do droppe the same vpon another peece of vvax these two vvaxes are made one so by the communication of Christs body and bloud vnto vs he is in vs and we in him 88. Another auncient Father also vpon the point of 1200. yeares gone had this similitude As wine saith he is mixed vvith him that drinketh the same in such sort as the wine is in him and he in the wine so is the bloud of Christ mixed also vvith him that drinketh the same in the Sacrament And S. Irenaeus Tertullian S. Iustinus Martyr all of them elder then this man do vse commonly this phrase of nourishinge and feedinge our flesh by the flesh