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A41388 Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 (1674) Wing G1029; ESTC R23950 83,883 174

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in the beliefe of the being of God and the truth of his mo●t sacred word if he be true to these great fundamentals must of necessity be both an Orthodox and a serious Christian. Dub. If you can give me as good satisfaction in the divine Authority of Scripture as you have in the being of an eternal God Creatour of heaven and earth you will performe a work of greatest Charity but I f●ar of as great difficulty Firm. Happily you may perceive some difficulty in it but if you will make use of your reason and lay aside all prejudicating opinions which cheifly arise from that contrariety which is betwixt mens carnall corrupt hearts and the holy and pure word of God I hope by his blessing whose Cause I plead to perswade you to give your full assent to this other great principle of Christianity Dub. I shall endeavour to weigh your reasons in the ballance of an even unbiassed judgment and to receive them a●imo defaecato with a mind free from the dregs of sensuality interest partiality or prejudice Firm. Upon the confidence to find this ingenuity in you I shall present you with these following reasons 1. You do belive that there is an omnipotent God Creatour of heaven and earth that he made all things therein contained that being infinite in wisedome and knowledg he made all these things for some good end that he hath ordered them to act and worke in such a manner as is suitable to their several natures that in as much as they have their being facultys operations from their all wise and Glorious maker they are bound by the law of Creation to do homage and service to him that made them Dub. All this I grant to be very rational Firm. These things being granted that not to mention other Creatures as man had his being reason and understanding from Almighty God so is he bound to serve him in that way and manner which is agreeable to mans excellent nature which must be therefore a reasonable service which all the world as well Pagans as Jews and Christians call Religion which according to all sober people comprehends duties of piety as praier praises and sacrifices duties of temperance sobriety and chastity duties of honesty justice righteousness and all morality Dub. There is nothing more evident then that as there is a most wise and holy God that made man endued him with excellent facultys of reason and understanding so there is a debt and duty owing from man to God his maker which all the world calls Religion and no people in the world were ever so barbarous saies Cicero as to be destitute of all Religion yea there is such a tendency in the nature of man where t is not utterly extinguished by brutish sensuality that rather then he will worship no God at all he will bow down to a Sock or a Stone so that clear it is if there be a God the Creatour and man by him created there must of necessity be a Religion Firm. Truly nothing does more necessarily follow as Du-Plessis has well observed then a God a man a Religion But if Almighty God did make man to worship him sure he gave him some rules for that worship some law to direct him in this great concern of his Soul Dub. I cannot deny it and that this law was no law written in paper or engraven in tables of stone but the law of nature written in mans heart which made Tertullian utter these excellent words o ani●a naturaliter Christiana ô Divine Soul that art naturally a Christian. We see that the fire ascends the water moves towards the Center birds make their nests Beasts feed their young not by any outward positive law but by the unerring hand of nature and may not man that has a natural inclination to serve his maker perform this service without any institued law or prescribed Canon Firm. Ther 's no disputing against experience you see he does not and when you shall embrace and understand the holy Scriptures you will see he cannot by reason of his fall from that ●erfect sta●e in which he was first made whereas the inferior Creatures kept their Station Dub. I confess there are different Religions in the world opposite one to another so that all of them cannot be in the right way of wo●shiping God some of necessity must be false and erroneous Firm. If of all religions in the world all are not in the right how will you know which is the true Religion which is the false This you cannot discern by any imprinted law or light of nature unless excited by Art and industry which is in some measure common to all men that are not natural fools and Madmen stupid inconsiderate wretches or debauched bruits whose reason is ●unk down into gross Sensuality Dub. T is very true if the meer light of nature were sufficient to point out the true Religion I am not able to say why so many Sober men in several parts of the world who have not debauched their Reason and judgment should so strangely differ about it Firm. I believe you cannot nor yet why Jewes and Pagans did offer up bloody Sacrifices to these Deitys they worshipped Does any light of nature make it rational that the Gods should be pleased with the blood of poor innocent Beasts or is it rational to imagine that they should delight in humane ●acrifices Dub. I must acknowledge I do not understand how the light of nature should teach men that such Sacrifices should please the Gods I have oft●n wondered at this part of worship used by Jews and Gentiles pray Sir give your selfe the trouble of informing me whence this practise sprang Firm. You are satisfied that it had not its original from the light of nature for albeit some kind of Sacrifices as Prayers praises alms-deeds and it may be the offering of the Fruits of the Earth Deo datori to God that gave them might spring from that light yet the Sacrificing of Beasts was never shewed to Jew or Gentile by natures Candle but was after the fall of man appointed by Almighty God to prefigure the Grand propitiatory Sacrifice which was to be made by the blood of him that was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world which the Devil who is tearmed Gods Ape taught his servants the Gentils to imitate who had the shell but not the kernel the shadow but not the substance the outward rite but not Christ crucified represented by it Dub. I do acknowledg that the Sacrificing of beasts came not from the light of nature and you seem to make it probable that 't was from divine revelation and positive institution Firm. You will be better satisfied when you shall consider That the founders of all Religions in the world did pretend to Revelations Numa Lycurgus Mahomet c. which the devil taught them to do in imitation of Moses and the rest of the holy Prophets who spake as they were moved by
introduced that it should be received by the Preists only in both kinds by the people in one is not this with the Socinians to make the Sacraments mere indifferent Ceremonies alter able at the Churches pleasure But the Councell of Trent flyes higher if any man shall say that all faithfull Christians by Gods Command or for necessity of Salvation ought to Receive the Sacrament in both kinds let him be acursed I wonder whether Pope Gelasius sate in or was out of his infallible Chair when he roundly said we find that some do abstain from the Chalice of the Sacred Blood let them receive the entire Sacrament or be kept from the whole because the division of one and the same mystery cannot be without grand Sacriledge Either the Pope was not infallible or the present Church of Rome is most Sacrilegious Firm. You rightly Judge and were their fancy of Transubstantiation true as nothing is more false and ridiculous yet were it not sufficient to debar the Laity of the Cup because they receive the Blood of Christ with his Body for this is not to drinke but to eat it and besides the Sacrament is not a sign of his Blood in the veins but as 't was shed and powred out might not the Preists as well receive his Blood with his Body and then 't were as superfluous for them to drin●e of the Cup as for the people but I pray proceed in your reasons against Popery Dub. My third reason is taken from the invocation of Saints departed which is against Scripture and antiquity 't is an attribute belonging to God alone that ●he is a God hearing Prayers 'T is a chiefe part of his worship thou shalt Worship the Lord thy God and him o●ely shalt thou Serve it robs Christ of one part of his Preistly office who now sitts at Gods right hand interceding for us there is but one Mediator betwixt God and man the man Christ I●sus certainly is holy men both before and under the law prayed to God alone through faith in the promised seed or Messias without invocateing any departed Saint because there was none then as they of the Church of Rome confess admitted to the beatifical vision and consequently could not know the need or praiers of men upon earth in the Glass of the Trinity there is less reason now to make our adresses to the spirits of just men made perfect Christ himselfe sitting at Gods right hand and Interceding for us Besides the worship of Angells is forbidden by St. Paul Col. 2. and the Angell in the Revelation twice sorbade St. Iohn to worship him Cap. 19. and 22 yea the worshippers of Angells were in the primitive times branded with the title of haereticks under the name of Angelici and therefore much less ought wee to worship the Saints departed for certainely they being the more excellent Creatures are much more capable of such worship then the soules of men that are now in Abrahams bosome in Paradise not yet in that perfect bliss and glory which they shall enjoy when their soules and bodies shall be reunited but according to many of the fathers in a certaine and joyfull expectancy of it after the last and finall judgment where the place of their present abode is I shall tell you when ●he fathers are agreed about it For this Saint worship certain it is there is no express Scripture and 't is as certain there is no generall consent of antiquity let any man peruse Mr. Meads excellent treatise of the Apostacy of the latter times wherein 't is apparent how the Cannonizing of Saints in the Church of Rome agrees with the heathens Apotheosis their praying to them with the worshipping of Heroes their Dij Medioxumi their haveing severall Saints for Patrons of Particular Countryes Trades and Callings Phisitians for divers diseases like the heathens Dij Tutelares as may be seen in Chemnitius his examen and in other learned men Firm. You need not spend more words about this grosse superstition which is nothing else but a mixture of Christianity and Paganisme and of all the errours of the Church of Rome most dangerous for the Lord our God is a jealous God and will not suffer the honour and worship that is due to him alone to be given to any other Dub. I shall submit to your advice and proceed to a fourth reason against Popery which is their adoration of images so much condemned in holy Scripture what more expressly forbiden then image worship by the second Commandement which they of Rome have Cunningly left out in their mass books offices Primmers and Catechism's and without all shew of Reason asserted it to be a positive Command belonging onely to the Jews how demonstratively is the fourth of Deutronomie against it from the 12 verse to the 18 many other texts might be urged to the same purpose all which the Schoolmen endeavour to baffle by their Pittifull distinctions betwixt an Image and an Idol a picture upon a cloath and one ingraven in wood or stone betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which every Esurient Groeculus every mean Sciolist will smile at betwixt Mediatè Relutivè and Terminative which a●e distinctions at least some of them without a difference mere Chimericall phansies if a man shall seriously peruse the 13 and 14. Chapters of the Book of Wisdome which at Rome is Canonicall Scripture and consider what answers the Heathens returned to those that objected against them their Idol worship that they worship not the Image but the Numen or divine power it represented he will easily discern that the wiser sort of Heathens made as wise Appologies for their Image worship as the wisest Papists do for theirs As for the antiquity of this grosse superstition both Fathers Councels are against it as is evident from that excellent Homily of our Church concerning the perill of Idolatry if it be replyed t were the images of the heathens they opposed true 't is for in the first ages of the Church there were no others the Christians of those times abominateing all image worship but the reasons they give against the heathen Imagery wound the Church of Rome under the fifth rib no Christian Church did then use images in their oratoryes in after ages they were admitted only for an historicall use as may be seen in St Gregories writings who lived above 600 years after Christ true 't is by the Second Nicene Councell their worship was decreed and so this iniquity was established by a law such a one as that packed convention could legitimate and hence forward not only the pictures of Saints but of God himself and of the Blessed Trinity were set up in Churches which was an high dishonour to the Glorious Majesty of the Almighty to be portraid like an old Man and gave an occasion to ignorant people to conceive him to be so indeed hence I have heard some of them say when they swore by God that they
out Firm. True 't is such dirt has been cast upon that Sacred Order by ignorant and discontented persons such an one was Aerius the first Anti-Episcopal man we read of but this groundless opinion is abundantly confuted by the Testimony of holy Scripture by the practise of the ●niversal Church attested by the general consent of Fathers and Councels as you may see in Dr. Hammond's book against Blondel Dr. Taylor 's treatise of the Divine right of Episcopacy with many others First The Scripture is clean for differrent Orders in the Clergy Our blessed Saviour besides his Seaventy Disciples had his Twelve Apostles which were superior to them as is evident by the chusing of Matthias into the place of Iudas from the example of Timothy and Titus the one a ●ishop of Creet the other of Ephesus by the general consent of Antiquity in those and other Churches In that once famous Church of Rome we have the Catalogue of those Bishops which presided there about Thirty of them suffering Martyrdom for the Testimony of our Lord Jesus What should I mention the Angels of the Seaven Asiatick Churches which by the general consent of the F●thers were the Bishops of those Churches nay St. Hierome himself no good friend to this Order does acknowledg That when Christians began to he divided one being of Paul an other of Cephas to prevent such Schisms there past an vniversal Decree throughout the world Th●t Bishops should be setled in every Citty who should govern with the Common Councel of the Bresbyters and that one of the Bresbyters should be elected and set over the rest for taking away the seeds of Schism Dub. I am very well perswaded by what you have said that the Primitive goverment of the Church was by Bishops with the assistance of the Presbyterie who had authority over the Presbyters and were their superiors But I pray you satisfie me in this one thing Why did St. Paul so sh●rply reprove the Corinthians for not excommunicating the Incestuous Person if they had no authority so to do without a Bishop Firm. This at the first sight seems to be a very smart objection but if we seriously consider the words upon which 't is grounded it has no weight at all The Text that is cited to prove it is 1. Corinth 5.2 Ye are puffed up and have not rather mourned that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you Where the Apostle reproves them for want of humiliation for so soul a sin not for the neglect of Excommunication He that had committed that great sin was to be taken away or cut off from the ●hurch but they themselves could not exclude him but this was to be done by the Spirit of St. Paul verse 3 4. in whom the power of Jurisdiction was originally ●eated there being then no Bishop of Corinth for evident it is that in those Churches where there were no Bishops the Apostles kept the power of Jurisdiction in their own hands until Bishops were setled among them as is manifest in the Churches of Ephesus and Creet Neither can it ever be proved that Bresbyters as such had any Jurisdiction belonging to the publick goverment of the Church but by particular Substitution and Delegation from the Apostles and Bishops and no● by virtue of their own Order Dub. I am very well satisfied both from Scripture and the general practise of the Church which is the best Comment on the Text That Episcopacy is an Apostolical Institution and I confess I am much confirm'd in this perswasion by Gods blessing upon our English Bishops and Episcopal men such as Cranmer Ridley Iewel Carlton Abbots Morton Andrews Vsher who of English extraction Hall Laud and Sanderson Hooker Cracanthorp Iackson c. whose profound Learning and Piety has given the greatest wounds to the Church of Rome that ever she received ●rom any Protestant writers and their judicious works have been the strongest sence against Popery Heresie Rebellion and Schism that the Christian world can ever boast of Firm. I much rejoyce that you have so good an opinion of our Bishops and Episcopal men I hope the Authority of these renowned Worthies will weigh much with you in our following discourses We will now if you please proceed to your exceptions against Deans and Chapters you shall find all those Learned men before mentioned and many more your opposites in this your second exception as well as in the former Dub. 'T is probable I shall however that I may receive full satisfaction from you give me leave to propose some doubts and scruples which I have against them As 1. They were not from the Beginning but as it were of yesterday 2. They seem to be very useless serving only to maintain the pride and grandure of many idle drones 3. Many poor Parochial Churches are rob'd of their Tiths and Glebs to maintain such lazy Ministers 4. Their Vicars Choral and Singing-men are many of them of no very commendable conversation have little sense or relish of Religion 5. Their Toning of Prayers their Chore service is like a Latine Masse not understood by the people 6. Their Organs and other Musical Instruments are Levitical utterly unlawful under the Gospel Firm. You may think these are such knots which admit of no easy solution but I shall presently make you understand the contrary First I shall shew you that Cathedrals Deans and Chapters though not under those names were from the beginning of Christianity It is clear from the Acts of the Apostles and the Records of the Church that the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ those spiritual Fishermen cast in their nets where they were like to make the greatest and most advantegious draughts They usually Preached in the most Populous Citys where they established Churches which anon after were called Mother-Churches to which the Suburbican or those that dwelt in the adjacent Villages were subject and with the Mother-Churches made up the Bishops Diocess which they governed as St. Hirome confesses by the common councel and assistance of Presbiters termed at Rome in after times Cardinals or chief Presbiters and in the time of Charles the great as the Magdeburgenses inform us were incorpated into a Colledge under the name of Dem and Chapter the Dean by the canon-Canon-law being called Arch-Presbiter Before the sounding of Universsitys these Cathedrals were the Schools of the Prophets where young Students were train'd up in the Study of Divinity and other good learning Gerard gives us a tast of their first institution their corruption and how they might be restored to their primitive uses I could wish that some learned Person who has the advantage of Books and well Studyed men to consult with and leisure all which we Country Ministers are deprived of would write in the Vindication of Cathedrals and manifest to this invidious age that the institution of Deans and Chapters is very usefull to the Church and very Antient as I