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A69535 The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.; Commission for the Review and Alteration of the Book of Common Prayer. 1661 (1661) Wing B1278A; Wing E3841; ESTC R7198 132,164 165

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Initiation into the Covenant and Church of Christ which none that indeed are the Children of the promise should neglect As Coronation solemnizeth his entrance upon the Kingdome that had before the title And as Marriage solemnizeth that which before was done by consent So Baptism solemnizeth the mutual Covenant which before had a mutual consent and none is authorised to consent for Infants but those that by nature and Gods Law have the power of disposing of them and whose will is in sensu-forensi the Childrens will It solemnly investeth us in what we had an Antecedent right to and therefore belongs to none but those that have that right And this we are ready to make good by any fair Debate that you will allow us Nor is any thing done in private reiterated in publick but the solemn reception into the Congregation with the prayers for him and the publick declaration before the Congregation of the Infants now made by the God-fathers that the whole Congregation may testify against him if he does not perform it which the Ancients made great use of Repl. Do you not say in the Rubr. And let them not doubt but the Child so baptized is lawfully and sufficiently baptized and ought not to be baptized again And after I certify you that in this case all is well done c. And yet you do not renew all the Baptismal Covenant renouncing the flesh c. and ingaging into the Christian belief And that you may see that the Church of England taketh not all Infants infallibly to be regenerated by Baptism unlesse you grant that they repent to the substance of Baptism the Baptismal prayer is here used for the fore-baptized that God will give his holy Spirit to this Infant that he being born again and made heir of everlasting Salvation c. which sheweth that he is now supposed to be Regenerandus non regeneratus Do they pray for his Regeneration whom they account regenerate already You must either confess that there they repeat much of the substance of Baptism and take the Child as not baptized or else that they take the baptized Child to be not-regenerate And then we may well take them for unregnerate that shew no signs of it at years of discretion but live a carnal and ungodly life though they can say the Catechism and seek Confirmation Of the CATECHISM Though divers have been of late baptized without God-fathers yet many have been baptized with them and those may answer the Questions as they are the rest must answer according to truth But there 's no reason to alter the Rule of the Catechism for some mens irregularities Reply If you will have a Catechism proper to those that had God-fathers give leave to others to use one that will teach them as you say to answer according to truth And let us in the same have that liberty of leaving out the doubtful Opinion of God-fathers and God-mothers and that which we think too childish a beginning What is your name and let us use one that speaks more of the necessary Doctrines of Salvation and nothing but Necessaries We conceive this expression as safe as that which they desire and more fully expressing the Efficacy of the Sacrament according to S. Paul the 26 and 27. of Gal. 3. Where S. Paul proves them all to be Children of God because they were baptized and in their Baptism had put on Christ If Children then Heirs or which is all one Inheritors Rom. 8. 17. Reply By Baptism Paul means not the Carkase of Baptism but the Baptismal dedication and covenanting with God They that do this by themselves if at age or by Parents or Pro-parents authorized if Infants sincerely are truly members of Christ and children of God and Heirs of Heaven They that do this but hypocritically and verbally as Simon Magus did are visibly such as the others are really But really are still in the gall of bitternesse and bond of iniquity and have no part or lot in this businesse their hearts being not right in the sight of God This is that truth which we are ready to make good We conceive the present Translation to be agreeable to many antie●● Copies therefore the change to be needlesse Repl. What antient Copy hath the Seventh day in the end of the fourth Commandment instead of the Sabbath day Did King James cause the Bible to be new translated to so little purpose We must bear you witnesse that in some Cases you are not given to change My duty towards God c. It is not true that there is nothing in that Answer which refers to the 4th Commandment for the last words of the Answer do orderlie relate to the last Commandment of the first Table which is the fourth Repl. And think you indeed that the 4th Commandment obligeth you no more to one day in seven than equally to all the dayes of your life This Exposition may make us think that some are more serious than else we could have imagined in praying after that Commandment Lord have mercy upon us and encline our hearts to keep this Law Two only as generally necessary to salvation c. These words are a Reason of the Answer that there are two only and therefore not to be left out Repl. The words seem to imply by distinction that there may be others not so necessary and the Lords Supper was not by the Antients taken to be necessary to the salvation of all We desire that the entring of Infants c. The effect of Childrens Baptism depends neither upon their own present actual Faith and Repentance which the Catechism saith expresly they cannot perform nor upon the Faith and Repentance of their natural Parents or Pro-parents or of their Godfathers or Godmothers but upon the Ordinance and Institution of Christ But it is requisite that when they come to age they should perform these Conditions of Faith and Repentance for which also their Godfathers and Godmothers charitably undertook on their behalf And what they do for the Infant in this Case the Infant himself is truly said to do as in the Courts of this Kingdom daily the Infant does answer by his Guardian and it is usual for to do homage by proxy and for Princes to marry by proxy For the further justification of this Answer See St. Aug. Ep. 23. ad Bonifac. Nihil aliud credere quam sidem habere ac per hoc cum respondetur Parvulum credere qui fidei nondum habet effectum respondetur Fidem habere propter fidei Sacramentum convertere se ad Deum propter Conversionis Sacramentum quia ipsa responsio ad celebrationem pertinet Sacramenti itaque parvulum etsi nondum fides illa quae in credentium voluntate consistit tamen ipsius sidei Sacramentum fidelem facit Repl. 1. You remove not all the inconvenience of the words that seemeth to import what you your selves disclaim 2. We know that the effects of
them not to have but we hope you speak not the publick sense As the Apostles desired as aforesaid that all would speak the same things without giving them that ever was proved a form of words to speak them in so might we propose to you that uncertain opinions be made no part of our Liturgie without putting all their words into their mouths in which their desires must be uttered Your heartie desire and the reason of it makes not only against extemporarie Prayer but all prepared or written forms or Liturgies that were indited only by one man and have not the consent antecedently of others And do you think this was the course of the Primitive times Basil thus used his private Conceptions at Caesarea and Greg. Thaumaturgus before him at Neocesarea and all Pastors in Justin Martyrs and Tertullians daies And how injurious is it to the publick Officers of Christ the Bishops and Pastors of the Churches to be called private men who are publick persons in the Church if they be not every single person is not a private person else Kings and Judges would be so And have you not better means to shut out private opinions than the forbidding Ministers praying in the Pulpit according to the varietie of subjects and occasions You have first the Examination of persons to be ordained and may see that they be able to speak sense and fit to mannage their proper works with judgement and discretion before you ordain them And some confidence may be put in a man in his proper calling and work to which he is admitted with so great care as we hope or desire you will admit them If you are necessitated to admit some few that are injudicious or unmeet we beseech you not only to restore the many hundred worthy men laid by to a capacity but that you will not so dishonour the whole Church as to suppose all such and to use all as such but restrain those that deserve restraint and not all others for their sakes And next you have a publick Rule the Holy Scripture for these men to pray by and if any of them be intollerably guiltie of weaknesses or rashness or other miscarriages the words being spoken in publick you have witnesse enow and sure there is power enough in Magistrates and Bishops to punish them and if they prove incorrigible to cast them out In all other professions these means are thought sufficient to regulate the Professors His Majestie thinks it enough to regulate his Judges that he may choose able men and fit to be trusted in their proper work and that they are responsible for all their maladministrations without prescribing them forms beyond which they may not speak any thing in their Charge Physitians being first tried and responsible for their doings are constantly trusted with the lives of high and low without tying them to give no counsel or medicine but by the prescript of a Book or determination of a Colledge And it is so undeniable that your reason makes more against Preaching and for only reading Homilies as that we must like it the worse if not fear what will become of Preaching also For 1. It is known that in Preaching a man hath far greater opportunity and liberty to vent a false or private opinion than in Prayer 2. It is known de eventu that it is much more ordinary And if you say that he speaks not the words of the Church but his own nor unto God but man and therefore it is less matter We answer it is as considerable if not much more from whom he speaks than to whom he speaks as the Minister of Christ in his stead and name 2 Cor. 5. 19 20. And it is as a higher so a more Reverend thing to speak in Gods name to the people than in the peoples name to God and to speak that which we call Gods word or truth or message than that which we call but our own desire We make God a lyer or corrupt in his words if we speak a falshood in his name we make but our selves lyers if we speak a falshood to him in our own names The former therefore is the more heynous and dreadfull abuse and more to be avoided or if but equally it shews the tendency of your reason for we will not say of your design as hoping you intend not to make us Russians We do therefore for the sake of the poor threatened Church beseech you that you will be pleased to repent of these desires and not to prosecute them considering that to avoid a lesser evil avoidable by safer means you will bring a far greater evil on the Churches and such as is like to strip these Nations of the glory in which they have excelled the rest of the world even a learned able holy Ministry and a people sincere and serious and understanding in the matters of their Salvation For 1. As it is well known that an ignorant man may read a Prayer and Homily as distinctly and laudably as a Learned Divine and so may do the work of a Minister if this be it so it is known that mans nature is so addicted to ease and sensual diversions as that multitudes will make no better preparations when they find that no more is necessary when they are as capable of their places and maintenance if they can but read and are forced upon no exercise of their parts which may detect and shame their ignorance but the same words are to be read by the ablest and ignorantest man it is certain that this will make multitudes idle in their Academical Studies and multitudes to spend their time idly all the year in the course of their Ministry and when they have no necessity that they are sensible of of diligent studies it will let loose their fleshly voluptuous inclinations and they will spend their time in sports and drinking and prating and idlenesse and this will be a Seminary of Lust or they will follow the world and drown themselves in Covetousnesse and Ambition and their hearts will be like their studies As its the way to have a holy able Ministry to engage them to holy studies to meditate on Gods Law day and night so it s the way to have an ignorant prophane and scandalous Ministry and consequently Enemies to serious Godlinesse in others to impose upon them but such a work as in ignorance and idlenesse they may perform as well as the judicious and the diligent If it be said that their parts may be tried and exercised some other way we answer where should a Ministers parts be exercised if not in the Pulpit or the Church and in Catechising in private Baptism and Communion and in the visitation of the sick their work also is such as a School-boy may do as well as they their ignorance having the same Cloak as in publick If it be said that a Ministers work is not to shew his parts we answer but his Ministerial work is to shew men