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A96398 The Quakers no deceivers, or, The management of an unjust charge against them confuted. Being a brief return to a pamphlet, intituled, The Quakers proved deceivers ... by John Horne ... / by one who is counted a deceiver, yet true, George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1660 (1660) Wing W1948; ESTC R223010 28,303 43

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which travails in pain for that is in bondage while in pain before the birth is brought forth to reign which brings to the healing and to the rest in the glorious liberty which before that state was witnessed even the Prophets also knew the travelling in pain for thus saith the Lord We have heard a voice of trembling of fear and not of peace aske ye now and see whether a man man doth travail with childe wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loyns as a woman in travel and all faces are turned into paleness Jer. 30.6 And like as a woman with child that draweth near the time of her delivery is in pain and cryeth out in her pangs so have we been in thy sight O Lord we have been with childe we have been in pain Isa 26.17 but when the Prophet witnessed that unto them a child was born and to them a son was given who was the wond reful Counsellor he brought the peace and ended the travail and pain he being the Prince of peace but these states I finde J. H. never knew for to my knowledge he hath judged our speaking of a babe within but to be a dream and is in his scorn and lies thereby making many of the people light and vain against the truth like the false Prophets And where he saith that here all the people fell a laughing at G. W. In this he would make all the people ignorant and scoffers like himself and herein many of the people who were at our dispute can witness against this J. Horne for wickedly belying them also for there were many both of our friends and others who were sober minded and did not joyn with him nor them of his company that scoffed in their laughter and scorn which did much manifest his shame and theirs who therein joyned with him seeing he was such a bad example among so many hundreds of people soberness and seriousness might better have become him in reasoning about the things of God Again J. H. saith I flew to another shift for that Paul condescended in his writing to those of low degree to the state of some he writ to as if the believing Romans or Saints at Rome were not borne of God or did not then believe that Jesus is the Christ c. Reply As for his urging that whosoever be lieves that Jesus is the Christ is borne of God he hath done it without understanding and without distinction though it be true according to Iohns Testimony of a true beleever who by faith hath victory over the world and so being borne of God is not under the bondage of corruption nor can such a one sin because he is borne of God and his seed remaineth in him so he witnesseth that Jesus is the Christ in saving him from sin but such in being born of God I. H. doth not own while men are here and let me tell him that a man must believe that Jesus is the Christ and believe in him too before he be borne of God as Christ said Beleeve in the light that ye may be the children of the light John 12.36 so as for his urging that whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God without any true discerning or distinction to such a multitude of people to make them believe that he had shackled me herein his deceit was clearly seen for what people is there of any understanding in the whole Christendom and even among these Priests in England whom this Priest Horne hath called greedy dumb dogs strong to appetite that do not beleeve that Jesus is the Christ are they therefore born of God examine and see And that Paul condescended to the Romans to severall States which he had passed thorow and which were below his owne when he writ to them is evident for which thing affirming this scornfull Priest hath so much reproached me For Paul spake unto them after the manner of men because of the infirmity of their flesh Rom. 6.19 and he could not then be in all those states as in relation to his own particular condition which he condescended to the Romans as one in For he spake to them as one under the Law and as a wretched man and as one that did evill who was led captive to the Law of sin in his members and asked who should deliver him like one that did not know who should though then he knew his deliverer and deliverance having bin a Minister many years Rom. 15.23 And he said I know that in me that is in my Flesh dwelleth no good thing and yet was not Christ then in him and in his Flesh and he spake unto them as in the warfare in the pain and bondage and as one who found not how to perform that which was good which states as in relation to his own condition he had passed thorough for he was at peace with God and freed from under the Law and dead unto sin and so free from it be being a Servant of Christ and one who was more then a Conqueror even when he writ to the Romans See Rom. 5. and chap. 6. and 7. and 8. so that any that understand thesest ates may see that Paul condescended to many states below his own for when he was free from all men he made himself servant unto all that he might gain the more for he saith unto the Jewes I became as a Jew that I might gain the Jewes and to them that are under the Law as under the Law that I might gain them that are under the Law and to them that are without Law being not without Law to God but under the Law to Christ that I might gain them that are under the Law And to the weak became I as weak c. 1 Cor. 9.20 And so what I spake touching Pauls travel and condescending was true and upon good grounds though J.H. and some of his company were so uncivil towards me in their bawling or wrangling many of them at once against me and obtruding many Questions together upon me at the dispute several times before I had explained my self to one and they would have tied me to Answer them Yea or Nay when often the things questioned did of necessity admit of a larger Answer then Yea or Nay shewing themselves both to want moderation and true understanding and they would not suffer me several times to explain what I laid down as I would for their bawling and heap of Questions though J.H. durst answer to very few Questions that I put to him and as for his accusing me as that I would faine have bin reading in their Book to have diverted from his Question or turned off from the discourse in hand In that I would not have long bin off the discourse for I would only have shewed them one or two of their Apparent Lies and then have disputed further with him but like guilty persons neither he nor T. M. would let me then