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A56167 A fvll reply to Certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on Master Prynnes twelve questions about church-government wherein the frivolousnesse, falseness, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, reselled : together with certaine briefe animadversions on Mr. Iohn Goodwins Theomachia, in justification of independency examined, and of the ecclesisticall jurisdiction and rights of Parliament, which he fights against / by William Prynne ... Prynne, William, 1600-1669. 1644 (1644) Wing P3967; ESTC R3868 34,873 26

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but onely reall visible Saints are there no usurers oppressors corrupt dealers covetous proud malicious uncharitable censorious persons no apparent hypocrites or dissemblers yea are there not many sinnes and corruptions in the best the choicest of all your members who cannot depart away or quite separate themselves from their * own bosome corruptions as there is and will be in the best of men during their mortality If your Independent congregations consist of such members as these of men subject to like passions sinnes infirmities as others in Presbyteriall churches what then is become of this your reason and principall ground of Independency or rather Separation or Brownism its ancient proper title you may lay it up in Lavander for another world but can make no use of it in this where you cannot so much as dream of a church of reall Saints without any mixture of corruption And therefore rather then separate or leave us in a P●…lt because you cannot have your wills in all things you should with blessed Paul as tender-conscienced no doubt as any of you and a lawfull pattern for your imitation * to the Iew become as Iewes that you might gain the Iewes to them that are under the Law as under the Law that you might gaine them that are under the Law to them that are without Law as being not without Law to God but under the Law to Christ that you might gaine them who are without law To the weake you should become as weake that you might gain the weak yea be made all things to all men that you might by all meanes gaine some Which how farre you in your new way are from let all men Judge 3. For his answers to that of Acts 15. all ages churches till this present have held it both an expresse warrant and president for the lawfulnesse usefulness of Nationall and Provinciall Synods to determine differences in Religion which particular churches persons cannot decide and making necessary Canons for church-affaires neither can all his shifts elude it To his first and second reasons or rather evasions I answer it is clear by Act. 15. 2. that the church of Antioch it selfe could not decide the question nor Paul nor Barnabas satisfactorily determine it so farre as to quiet all parties and therefore they sent Delegates to the Apostles and Elders at Hierusalem there to decide it None is so ignorant but knowes that there are many controversies now on foot concerning doctrine discipline and church-government which no particular congregations nay hardly an whole Synod and Parliament together are sufficient to settle and determine therefore there is a kinde of necessity of Nationall Synods as well as of Parliaments whence all ages churches have used them To his third reason I reply that it is evident by expresse words vers. 2. 5. 6. 7. 10. 19. 20. 24. that the principall end why the Apostles went up to Hierusalem and why this Synod ass●…mbled was not to prove the false Apostles lyars as he affirmeth but to debate and consider THIS QVESTION AND MATTER wheth●…r ●…he Gen●…les ought ●…o bec●…rcumci s●…d To his fourth I say that though this meeting was occasional yet it i●… a sufficient warrant for generall meetings which are usua●…ly called only upon speciall occasions of moment In it there was a generall assembling of all the Apostles Elders and Brethren at Hierusalem where there were then divers particular congregations as our Assembly long since resolved from Acts 2. 6. 41 42 46 47. c. 4. 4. c. 5. 14 15 16 42. c. 6. 1. to 9. c. 8. 2 3 4. c. 11. 1 2. c. 12. 12 13. c. 21. 17 18 23 22. which if Independents deny then they must prove that all the Apostles and Elders at Hierusalem were Pastors but of oneand the self-same individuall congregation and then what becomes of their Independent churches which have no Apostle and onely one Pastor but scarce any Elders in them who upon this speciall and some other publike occasions met all together and that not to advise onely but determine and resolve as is evident by vers 6. to 32. c. 16. 4. c. 21. 25. which compared with the Texts of the old Testament in the Margin of my Quere where we finde frequent Nationall generall Assemblies Synods or Parliaments if I may so stile them among the Israelites prescribed appointed by God and no wayes contradicted revoked under the Gospel determining † all Ecclesiasticall controversies setling ordering all church-affaires matters concerning the Arke Temple Sacrifices Passeover Priests Nationall covenants Fasting-dayes Festivalls suppressions of Idolatry false-Worship Reliques of Idolatry and the like are an impregnable evidence of the lawfulnesse of Nationall Synods Parliaments Assemblies in all Christian Kingdomes Republikes upon the like occasions and that they are endued with equivalent authority there being no one Text in the old or new Testament nor any shadow of reason but mee●… shifts or obs●…inacy of spirit against publike govetment order and authority to controll it If any pretend they doe it onely out of consci●…nce if they will but seriously gage their owne deceitfull hearts I feare their conscience will prove but wilfulnesse having neithe●… precept pre●…dent nor right reason to direct it So as I may truely 〈◊〉 his own calumny against me on him and his that his and their own name will or opinion is their onely argument against this shining truth which all ages Churches have acknowledged ratified practised without the least dispute 9. To my ninth Quere and arguments in it he returnes nothing worthy Reply but upon this Petitio principii or begging of the thing disputed that the Scripture and Apostles have prescribed a set forme of Government in all after ●…ges for the Churches of Christ which he neither can nor endevours to prove and that Churches in the Apostles dayes were Independent though doubtlesse all Churches were then subject to the Apostles Lawes Orde●…s Edicts Decisions though no immediate Ministers or Pastors of them as appeares by their Epistles to them therefore not Independent so as my arguments hold firme and his answers weak As for his retorted argument That the Scriptures were writ in the infancy of the Church Therefore wiser and better Scriptures may be writ now it is a blasphemous and absurd conclusion they being all writ by the spirit and inspiration of God himselfe the very * A●…cient of dayes who hath neither infancy nor imperfection as the Church hath To his second objection that I would needs mak a Nationall Church State more perfect understanding and wise then a congregationall I f●…are are not to averre it●… since warranted by * direct Scriptu●…e and since your selves must grant that the Church under the Law was more perfect then that before it the Church under the Gospell more perfect then under the Law and the Churches under the Gospel at the end of the Apostles dayes when furnished with more divine knowledge Scriptures Gospels Officers and rules of Faith Manners