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A52850 Discourses concerning government, in a way of dialogue wherein, by observations drawn from other kingdoms and states, the excellency of the English government is demonstrated, the causes of the decay thereof are considered, and proper remedies for cure proposed / by Henry Nevill ...; Plato redivivus. 1698 Neville, Henry, 1620-1694. 1698 (1698) Wing N503A; ESTC R39070 112,421 300

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they are to Cultivate and improve This is well managed by the Bashaws and their Officers and comes to an incredible sum the goods being sold the Money is conveyed in specie to the Port and is the greatest part of that Prince's Revenue And it is believed that if all the Lands had been entirely confiscated and that the Grand Seignior had managed them by his Officers he would not have made a third part so much of the whole as he receives now annually for one half not only because those People are extreamly industrious where their own profit is concerned but for that it is clear if they had been totally divested of their Estates they would have left their Country and made that which is now the most populous Kingdom of the World a Desart as is all the rest of the Turkish Dominions except some Cities And if the People had removed as they did elsewhere there would not only have wanted hands to have Cultivated and Improved the Lands but mouths to consume the product of it so that the Princes Revenue by the cheapness of Victual and the want of Labourers would have almost fallen to nothing Noble Ven. Pray God this be not the reason that this King of France leaves Property to his Subjects for certainly he hath taken example by this Province of Egypt his Subjects having a Tax which for the continuance of it I must call a Rent or Tribute Impos'd upon them to the value of one full half of their Estates which must ever increase as the Lands improve Eng. Gent. I believe Sir there is another reason For the Property there being in the Nobility and Gentry which are the hands by which he manages his Force both at home and abroad it would not have been easie or safe for him to take away their Estates But I come to the limited Monarchies They were first Introduced as was said before by the Goths and other Northern People Whence those great swarms came as it was unknown to Procopius himself who liv'd in the time of their Invasion and who was a diligent searcher into all the circumstances of their concernments so it is very needless for us to make any enquiry into it thus much being clear That they came Man Woman and Child and conquer'd and possest all these parts of the World which were then subject to the Roman Empire and since Christianity came in have been so to the Latin Church till honest John Calvin taught some of us the way how to deliver our selves from the Tyrannical Yoak which neither we nor our Forefathers were able to bear Whence those People had the Government they Establisht in these parts after their Conquest that is whether they brought it from their own Country or made it themselves must needs be uncertain since their Original is wholly so but it seems very probable that they had some excellent persons among them though the ignorance and want of learning in that Age hath not suffered any thing to remain that may give us any great light for it is plain that the Government they setled was both according to the exact Rules of the Politicks and very natural and suitable to that Division they made of their several Territories Whenever then these Invaders had quieted any Province and that the People were driven out or subdued they divided the Lands and to the Prince they gave usually a tenth part or thereabouts to the great Men or Comites Regis as it was translated into Latine every one as near as they could an equal share These were to enjoy an Hereditary right in their Estates as the King did in his part and in the Crown but neither he nor his Peers or Companions were to have the absolute disposal of the Lands so allotted them but were to keep a certain proportion to themselves for their use and the rest was ordered to be divided amongst the Free-men who came with them to Conquer What they kept to themselves was called Demesnes in English and French and in Italian Beni Allodiali The other part which they granted to the Free-men was called a Feud and all these Estates were held of these Lords Hereditarily only the Tenants were to pay a small Rent annually and at every Death or Change an acknowledgment in Money and in some Tenures the best Beast besides But the chief condition of the Feud or Grant was that the Tenant should perform certain Services to the Lord of which one in all Tenures of Free-men was to follow him Armed to the Wars for the Service of the Prince and Defence of the Land And upon their admittance to their Feuds they take an Oath to be true Vassals and Tenants to their Lords and to pay their Rents and perform their Services and upon failure to forfeit their Estates and these Tenants were divided according to their Habitations into several Mannors in every one of which there was a Court kept twice every year where they all were to appear and to be admitted to their several Estates and to take the Oath above mentioned All these Peers did likewise hold all their Demesnes as also all their Mannors of the Prince to whom they swore Allegiance and Fealty There were besides these Freemen or Francklins other Tenants to every Lord who were called Villains who were to perform all servile Offices and their Estates were all at the Lords disposal when he pleased these consisted mostly of such of the former Inhabitants of these Countries as were not either destroyed or driven out and possibly of others who were Servants amongst them before they came from their own Countries Perhaps thus much might have been unnecessary to be said considering that these Lords Tenants and Courts are yet extant in all the Kingdoms in Europe but that to a Gentleman of Venice where there are none of these things and where the Goths never were something may be said in excuse for me Noble Ven. 'T is true Sir we fled from the Goths betimes but yet in those Countries which we recovered since in Terra firma we found the Footsteps of these Lords and Tenures and their Titles of Counts though being now Provinces to us they have no influence upon the Government as I suppose you are about to prove they have in these parts Eng. Gent. You are right Sir for the Governments of France Spain England and all other Countries where these People setled were fram'd accordingly It is not my business to describe particularly the distinct Forms of the several Governments in Europe which do derive from these People for they may differ in some of their Orders and Laws though the Foundation be in them all the same this would be unnecessary they being all extant and so well known and besides little to my purpose excepting to shew where they have declined from their first Institution and admitted of some change France and Poland have not nor as I can learn ever had any Free-men below the Nobility that is
yet we see that till Joseph's time he had not the whole Property for the Wisdom of that Patriarch taught his Master a way to make a new use of that Famine by telling him that if they would buy their Lives and sell their Estates as they did afterwards and preserve themselves by the Kings Bread they shall serve Pharaoh which shews that Joseph knew well that Empire was founded in Property But most of the Modern Writers in Polity are of Opinion that Egypt was not a Monarchy till then though the Prince might have the Title of King as the Heraclides had in Sparta and Romulus and the other Kings had in Rome both which States were Instituted Common-Wealths They give good Conjectures for this their Opinion too many to be here mentioned only one is That Originally as they go about to prove all Arts and Sciences had their Rise in Egypt which they think very improbable to have been under a Monarchy But this Position That all Kings in former times were absolute is not so Essential to the intent I have in this Discourse which is to prove That in all States of what kind soever this Aphorisme takes place Imperium fundatur in Dominio So that if there were mixed Monarchies then the King had not all the Property but those who shared with him in the Administration of the Soveraignty had their part whether it were the Senate the People or both or if he had no Companions in the Soveraign Power he had no Sharers likewise in the Dominion or Possession of the Land For that is all we mean by Property in all this Discourse for as for Personal Estate the Subjects may enjoy it in the largest Proportion without being able to invade the Empire The Prince may when he pleases take away their Goods by his Tenants and Vassals without an Army which are his Ordinary Force and answers to our Posse Comitatus But the Subjects with their Money cannot invade his Crown So that all the Description we need make of this Kind or Form of Government is That the whole possession of the Country and the whole power lies in the Hands and Breast of one man he can make Laws break and repeal them when he pleases or dispense with them in the mean time when he thinks fit interpose in all Judicatories in behalf of his Favourites take away any particular mans personal Estate and his Life too without the formality of a Criminal Process or Trial send a Dagger or a Halter to his chief Ministers and command them to make themselves away and in fine do all that his Will or his Interest suggests to him Doct. You have dwelt long here upon an Argumentation That the Ancients had no Monarchies but what were Arbitrary Eng. Gent. Pray give me leave to save your Objections to that point and to assure you first That I will not take upon me to be so positive in that for that I cannot pretend to have read all the Historians and Antiquaries that ever writ nor have I so perfect a memory as to remember or make use of in a Verbal and Transient Reasoning all that I have ever read And then to assure you again that I build nothing upon that Assertion and so your Objection will be needless and only take up time Doct. You mistake me I had no intent to use any Argument or Example against your Opinion in that but am very willing to believe that it may be so What I was going to say was this that you have insisted much upon the point of Monarchy and made a strange description of it whereas many of the Ancients and almost all the Modern Writers magnifie it to be the best of Governments Eng. Gent. I have said nothing to the contrary I have told you de facto what it is which I believe none will deny The Philosopher said it was the best Government but with this restriction ubi Philosophi regnant and they had an Example of it in some few Roman Emperours but in the most turbulent times of the Commonwealth and Factions between the Nobility and the People Rome was much more full of Vertuous and Heroick Citizens than ever it was under Aurelius or Antonius For the Moderns that are of that Judgement they are most of them Divines not Politicians and something may be said in their behalf when by their good Preaching they can infuse into their imaginary Prince who seems already to have an Image of the Power of God the Justice Wisdom and Goodness too of the Deity Noble Ven. We are well satisfied with the Progress you have hitherto made in this matter pray go on to the two other Forms used amongst the Ancients and their Corruptions that so we may come to the Modern Governments and see how England stands and how it came to decay and what must Rebuild it Eng. Gent. You have very good Reason to hasten me to that for indeed all that has been said yet is but as it were a Preliminary discourse to the knowledge of the Government of England and its decay when it comes to the Cure I hope you will both help me for both your self and the Doctor are a thousand times better than I at Remedies But I shall dispatch the other two Governments Aristocracy or Optimacy is a Commonwealth where the better sort that is the Eminent and Rich men have the chief Administration of the Government I say the chief because there are very few ancient Optimacies but the People had some share as in Sparta where they had power to Vote but not Debate for so the Oracle of Apollo brought by Lycurgus from Delphos settles it But the truth is these people were the natural Spartans For Lycurgus divided the Country or Territory of Laconia into 39000 Shares whereof Nine thousand only of these Owners were Inhabitants of Sparta the rest lived in the Country so that although Thucidides call it an Aristocracy and so I follow him yet it was none of those Aristocracies usually described by the Politicians where the Lands of the Territory were in a great deal fewer Hands But call it what you will where ever there was an Aristocracy there the Property or very much the Over-ballance of it was in the hands of the Aristoi or Governours be they more or fewer for if the People have the greatest interest in the Property they will and must have it in the Empire A notable example of it is Rome the best and most glorious Government that ever the Sun saw where the Lands being equally divided amongst the Tribes that is the People it was impossible for the Patricii to keek them quiet till they yielded to their desires not only to have their Tribunes to see that nothing passed into a Law without their consent but also to have it declared that both the Consuls should not only be chosen by the people as they ever were and the Kings too before them but that they might be elected too when the
the Romans run the risk of their Liberty and Empire in the War of Hannibal but their Power and their Vertue grew to that heighth in that contest that when it was ended I believe that if they had preserved the Foundation of their Government entire they had been Invincible And if I were alone of this Opinion I might be ashamed but I am backt by the Judgement of your Incomparable Country-man Machiavil and no Man will condemn either of us of rashness if he first consider what small States that have stood upon right bottoms have done to defend their Liberty against great Monarchs as is to be seen in the example of the little Commonwealth of Athens which destroyed the Fleet of Xerxes consisting of a thousand Vessels in the Streights of Salamis and before the land army of Darius of three hundred thousand in the Plains of Marathon and drove them out of Greece for though the whole Confederates were present at the Battel of Plataea yet the Athenian Army singly under their General Miltiades gain'd that renowned Battel of Marathon Noble Ven. I beseech you Sir how was it possible or practicable that the Romans Conquering so many and so remote Provinces should yet have been able to preserve their Agrarian Law and divide all those Lands equally to their Citizens Or if it had been possible yet it would have ruin'd their City by sending all their Inhabitants away and by taking in Strangers in their room they must necessarily have had people less Vertuous and less Warlike and so both their Government and their Military Discipline must have been Corrupted for it is not to be imagined but that the People would have gone with their Families to the place where their Lands lay So that it appears that the Romans did not provide in the making and framing their first Polity for so great Conquests as they afterwards made Eng. Gent. Yes surely they did from their first beginning they were Founded in War and had neither Land nor Wives but what they fought for but yet what you object were very weighty if there had not been a consideration of that early For assoon as that great and wise People had subdued the Samnites on the East and brought their Arms as far as the Greek Plantations in that part of Italy which is now called the Kingdom of Naples and Westward had reduced all the Tuscans under their Obedience as far as the River Arnus they made that and the River Volturnus which runs by the Walls of Capua the two Boundaries of their Empire which was called Domicilium Imperii These were the ne plus ultra for what they Conquered between these two Rivers was all confiscated and divided amongst the Tribes the Rustick Tribes being twenty seven and the Vrbane Tribes nine which made thirty six in all The City Tribes were like our Companies in London consisting of Tradesmen The Country Tribes were divided like Shires and there was scarce any Landed Man who Inhabited in the City but he was written in that Tribe where his Estate lay so that the Rustick Tribes though they had all equal Voices were of far more Credit and Reputation than the Vrbane Upon the days of the Comtia which were very well known as many as thought fit amongst the Country Tribes came to give their Voices though every Tribe was very numerous of Inhabitants that lived in the City Now the Agrarian did not extend to any Lands conquered beyond this Precinct but they were le●t to the Inhabitants they paying a Revenue to the Commonwealth all but those which were thought fit to be set out to maintain a Roman Colony which was a good number of Roman Citizens sent thither and provided of Lands and Habitations which being Armed did serve in the nature of a Citadel and Garison to keep the Province in Obedience and a Roman Praetor Proconsul or other Governour was sent yearly to Head them and brought Forces with him besides Now it was over lawful for any Roman Citizen to purchase what Lands he pleased in any of these Provinces it not being dangerous to a City to have their People rich but to have such a Power in the Governing part of the Empire as should make those who managed the Affairs of the Commonwealth depend upon them which came afterwards to be that which ruined their Liberty and which the Gracchi endeavoured to prevent when it was too late For those Illustrious persons seeing the disorder that was then in the Commonwealth and rightly comprehending the Reason which was the intermission of the Agrarian and by consequence the great Purchases which were made by the Men of Rome who had inriched themselves in Asia and the other Provinces in that part of Italy which was between the two Rivers before mentioned began to harrangue the People in hopes to perswade them to admit of the right Remedy which was to confirm the Agrarian Law with a Retrospect which although they carried yet the difficulties in the Execution proved so great that it never took effect by reason that the Common People whose Interest it was to have their Lands restored yet having long lived as Clients and Dependents of the great ones chose rather to depend still upon their Patrons than to hazard all for an Imaginary deliverance by which supineness in them they were prevail'd with rather to joyne for the most part with the Oppressors of themselves and their Countrey and to cut the throats of their redeemers than to employ their just resentment against the covetous Violators of their Government and Property So perished the two renowned Gracchi one soon after the other not for any crime but for having endeavoured to preserve and restore their Common-wealth for which if they had lived in times suitable to such an Heroick undertaking taking and that the vertue of their Ancestors had been yet in any kind remaining they would have merited and enjoyed a Reputation equal to that of Lycurgus or Solon whereas as it happen'd they were sometime after branded with the name of Sedition by certain Wits who prostituted the noble flame of Poetry which before had wont to be employed in magnifying Heroick Actions to flatter the Lust and Ambition of the Roman Tyrants Noble Ven. Sir I approve what you say in all things and in Confirmation of it shall further alledge the two famous Princes of Sparta Agis and Cleomines which I couple together since Plutarch does so These finding the Corruption of their Commonwealth and the Decay of their ancient Vertue to proceed from the neglect and inobservance of their Founders Rules and a breach of that Equality which was first instituted endeavour to restore the Laws of Lycurgus and divide the Territory anew their Victory in the Peloponnesian War and the Riches and Luxury brought into their City by Lisander having long before broken all the Orders of their Common-wealth and destroyed the Proportions of Land allotted to each of the Natural Spartans But the first of these two
Monarchy in the World if they could have stayed here and not had a Mercinary Army besides which have often like the Praetorians in the time of the Roman Tyrants made the Palace and the Serraglio the Shambles of their Princes whereas if the Timariots aswell Spahis or Horse as Foot had been brought together to Guard the Prince by Courses as they used to do King David as well as they are to fight for the Empire this horrid flaw and inconvenience in their Government had been wholly avoided For though these are not planted upon entire Property as David's were those being in the nature of Trained-Bands yet the remoteness of their Habitations from the Court and the Factions of the great City and their desire to repair home and to find all things quiet at their return would have easily kept them from being infected with that cursed Disease of Rebellion against their Soveraign upon whose favour they depend for the continuance of their livelihood Whereas the Janizaries are for life and are sure to be in the same Employment under the next Successor so sure that no Grand Seignior can or dares go about to Disband them the suspicion of intending such a thing having caused the death of more than one of their Emperours But I shall go to the limited Monarchies Doct. But pray before you do so Inform us something of the Roman Emperours Had they the whole Dominion or Property of the Lands of Italy Eng. Gent. The Roman Emperours I reckon amongst the Tyrants for so amongst the Greeks were called those Citizens who usurpt the Governments of their Crmmonwealths and maintain'd it by force without endeavouring to Found or Establish it by altering the Property of Lands as not imagining that their Children could ever hold it after them in which they were not deceived So that it is plain that the Roman Empire was not a natural but a violent Government The reasons why it lasted longer than ordinarily Tyrannies do are many First because Augustus the first Emperour kept up the Senate and so for his time cajold them with this bait of Imaginary Power which might not have sufficed neither to have kept him from the fate of his Uncle but that there had been so many Revolutions and bloody wars between that all Mankind was glad to repose and take breath for a while under any Government that could protect them And he gain'd the service of these Senators the rather because he suffered none to be so but those who had followed his Fortune in the several Civil Wars and so were engaged to support him for their own preservation Besides he confiscated all those who had at any time been proscribed or sided in any Encounter against him which considering in how few hands the Lands of Italy then were might be an over-ballance of the Property in his hands But this is certain that what ever he had not in his own possession he disposed of at his pleasure taking it away as also the lives of his people without any judicial proceedings when he pleased That the Confiscations were great we may see by his planting above sixty thousand Souldiers upon Lands in Lombardy That is erecting so many Beneficia or Timarr's and if any Man's Lands lay in the way he took them in for Neighbourhood without any delinquency Mantua vae miserae nimium vicina Cremonoe And it is very evident that if these Beneficia had not afterwards been made Hereditary that Empire might have had a stabler Foundation and so a more quiet and orderly progress than it after had for the Court Guards call'd the Praetorians did make such havock of their Princes and change them so often that this though it may seem a Paradox is another reason why this Tyranny was not ruin'd sooner for the People who had really an Interest to endeavour a change of Government were so prevented by seeing the Prince whom they designed to supplant removed to their hand that they were puzled what to do taking in the mean time great recreation to see those wild Beasts hunted down themselves who had so often prey'd upon their Lives and Estates besides that most commonly the frequent removes of their Masters made them scarce have time to do any mischief to their poor oppressed Subjects in particular though they were all Slaves in general This Government of the later Romans is a clear Example of the truth and efficacy of these Politick Principles we have been discoursing of First that any Government be it the most unlimitted and arbitrary Monarchy that is placed upon a right Basis of Property is better both for Prince and People than to leave them a seeming Property still at his devotion and then for want of fixing the Foundation expose their Lives to those dangers and hazzards with which so many Tumults and Insurrections which must necessarily happen will threaten them daily And in the next place that any violent constraining of mankind to a subjection is not to be called a Government nor does salve either the Politick or Moral ends which those eminent Legislators amongst the Ancients proposed to themselves when they set Rules to preserve the quiet and peace as well as the plenty prosperity and greatness of the People but that the Politicks or Art of Governing is a Science to be learned and studied by Counsellors and Statsemen be they never so great or else Mankind will have a very sad condition under them and they themselves a very perplexed and turbulent life and probably a very destructive and precipitous end of it Doct. I am very glad I gave occasion to make this Discourse now I beseech you before you go to the mixt Monarchies not to forget Egypt Eng. Gent. 'T was that I was coming to before you were pleased to interrogate me concerning the Roman Empire The Egyptians are this day for ought I know the only People that enjoy Property and are Governed as a Province by any of the Eastern absolute Princes For whereas Damasco Aleppo and most of the other Cities and Provinces of that Empire whose Territory is divided into Timarr's are Governed by a Bashaw who for his Guards has some small number of Janizaries or Souldiers the Bashaw of Egypt or of Grand Cairo has ever an Army with him and divers Forts are erected which is the way European Princes use in Governing their Provinces and must be so where Property is left entire except they plant Colonies as the Romans did The reason why Selim who broke the Empire of the Mamalukes and conquered Egypt did not plant Timarr's upon it was the Laziness and Cowardliness of the People and the great Fruitfulness of the Soil and Deliciousness of the Country which has mollifi'd and rendred effeminate all the Nations that ever did Inhabit it So that a resolution was taken to impose upon them first the maintaining an Army by a Tax and then to pay a full half of all the Fruits and product of their Lands to the Grand Seignior which