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A59095 Table-talk, being discourses of John Seldon, Esq or his sense of various matters of weight and high consequence, relating especially to religion and state. Selden, John, 1584-1654. 1696 (1696) Wing S2438; ESTC R3639 74,052 204

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three Estates are the Lord 's Temporal the Bishops are the Clergy and the Commons as some would have it take heed of that for then if two agree the third is involv'd but he is King of the Three Estates 6. The King hath a Seal in every Court and tho the Great Seal be called Sigillum Angliae the Great Seal of England yet 't is not because 't is the Kingdom 's Seal and not the Kings but to distinguish it from Sigillum Hiberniae Sigillum Scotiae 7. The Court of England is much alter'd At a solemn Dancing first you had the grave Measures then the Corrantoes and the Galliards and this is kept up with Ceremony at length to French-more and the Cushion-Dance and then all the Company dances Lord and Groom Lady and Kitchen-Maid no Distinction So in our Court in Queen Elizabeth's time Gravity and State were kept up In King Jame's time things were pretty well But in King Charles's time there has been nothing but French-more and the Cushion-Dance omnium gatherum tolly polly hoite come toite The King 1. 'T IS hard to make an Accomodation between the King and the Parliament If you and I fell out about Money you said I ow'd you Twenty Pounds I said I ow'd you but Ten Pounds it may be a third Party allowing me twenty Marks might make us Friends But if I said I ow'd you twenty Pounds in Silver and you said I ow'd you twenty Pounds in Diamonds which is a Summ innumerable 't is impossible we should ever agree This is the Case 2. The King using the House of Commons as he did in Mr. Pymm and his Company that is charging them with Treason because they charg'd my Lord of Canterbury and Sir George Ratcliff it was just with as much Logick as the Boy that would have lain with his Grandmother us'd to his Father you lay with my Mother why should not I lie with yours 3. There is not the same Reason for the King 's accusing Men of Treason and carrying them away as there is for the Houses themselves because they accuse one of themselves For every one that is accused is either a Peer or a Commoner and he that is accused hath his Consent going along with him but if the King accuses there is nothing of this in it 4. The King is equally abus'd now as before then they flatter'd him and made him do ill Things now they would force him against his Conscience If a Physician should tell me every thing I had a mind to was good for me tho' in truth 't was Poison he abus'd me and he abuses me as much that would force me to take something whether I will or no. 5. The King so long as he is our King may do with his Officers what he pleases as the Master of the House may turn away all his Servants and take whom he please 6. The King's Oath is not security enough for our Property for he swears to Govern according to Law now the Judges they interpret the Law and what Judges can be made to do we know 7. The King and the Parliament now falling out are just as when there is foul Play offer'd amongst Gamesters one snatches the others stake they seize what they can of one anothers 'T is not to be ask'd whether it belongs not to the King to do this or that before when there was fair Play it did But now they will do what is most convenient for their own safety If two fall to scuffling one tears the others Band the other tears his when they were Friends they were quiet and did no such thing they let one anothers Bands alone 8. The King calling his Friends from the Parliament because he had use of them at Oxford is as if a Man should have use of a little piece of Wood and he runs down into the Cellar and takes the Spiggot in the mean time all the Beer runs about the House when his Friends are absent the King will be lost Knights Service 1. KNights Service in earnest means nothing for the Lords are bound to wait upon the King when he goes to War with a Foreign Enemy with it may be one Man and one Horse and he that doth not is to be rated so much as shall seem good to the next Parliament And what will that be So 't is for a private Man that holds of a Gentleman Land 1. WHen Men did let their Land underfoot the Tenants would fight for their Landlords so that way they had their Retribution but now they will do nothing for them may be the first if but a Constable bid them that shall lay the Landlord by the Heels and therefore 't is vanity and folly not to take the full value 2. Allodium is a Law Word contrary to Feudum and it signifies Land that holds of no body We have no such Land in England 'T is a true Proposition all the Land in England is held either immediately or mediately of the King Language 1. TO a living Tongue new Words may be added but not to a dead Tongue as Latin Greek Hebrew c. 2. Latimer is the Corruption of Latiner it signifies he that interprets Latin and though he interpreted French Spanish or Italian he was call'd the King's Latiner that is the King's Interpreter 3. If you look upon the Language spoken in the Saxon Time and the Language spoken now you will find the Difference to be just as if a Man had a Cloak that he wore plain in Queen Elizabeth's Days and since here has put in a piece of Red and there a piece of Blue and here a piece of Green and there a piece of Orange-tawny We borrow Words from the French Italian Latin as every Pedantick Man pleases 4. We have more Words than Notions half a Dozen Words for the same thing Sometimes we put a new signification to an old Word as when we call a Piece a Gun The Word Gun was in use in England for an Engine to cast a thing from a Man long before there was any Gun-powder found out 5. Words must be fitted to a Man's Mouth 't was well said of the Fellow that was to make a Speech for my Lord Mayor he desir'd to take measure of his Lordship's Mouth Law 1. A Man may plead not guilty and yet tell no Lye for by the Law no Man is bound to accuse himself so that when I say Not Guilty the meaning is as if I should say by way of Paraphrase I am not so Guilty as to tell you if you will bring me to a Tryal and have me punish'd for this you lay to my Charge prove it against me 2. Ignorance of the Law excuses no man not that all Men know the Law but because 't is an excuse every Man will plead and no Man can tell how to confute him 3. The King of Spain was outlaw'd in Westminster-Hall I being of Council against him A Merchant had recover'd Costs against him in a
The meaning of the Law was that so much should be taken from a Man such a Cobbet sliced off that yet not withstanding he might live in the same Rank and Condition he lived in before but now they fine Men ten times more than they are worth Free-will 1. THe Puritans who will allow no Free-will at all but God does all yet will allow the Subject his Liberty to do or not to do notwithstanding the King the God upon Earth The Armenians who hold we have Free-will yet say when we come to the King there must be all Obedience and no Liberty to be stood for Fryers 1. THE Fryers say they possess nothing whose then are the Lands they hold not their Superiour's he hath vow'd Poverty as well as they whose then To answer this 't was decreed they should say they were the Popes And why must the Fryers be more perfect than the Pope himself 2. If there had been no Fryers Christendom might have continued quiet and things remain at a stay If there had been no Lecturers which succeed the Fryers in their way the Church of England might have stood and flourisht at this Day Friends 1. OLD Friends are best King James us'd to call for his old Shoos they were easiest for his Feet Genealogy of Christ. 1. TThey that say the Reason why Joseph's Pedigree is set down and not Mary's is because the Descent from the Mother is lost and swallowed up say something but yet if a Jewish Woman marry'd with a Gentil they only took Notice of the Mother not of the Father but they that say they were both of a Tribe say nothing for the Tribes might marry one with another and the Law against it was only Temporary in the time while Joshua was dividing the Land lest the being so long about it there might be a confusion 2. That Christ was the Son of Joseph is most exactly true For though he was the Son of God yet with the Jews if any Man kept a Child and brought him up and call'd him Son he was taken for his Son and his Land if he had any was to descend upon him and therefore the Genealogy of Joseph is justly set down Gentlemen 1. What a Gentleman is 't is hard with us to define in other Countries he is known by his Priviledges in Westminster-Hall he is one that is reputed one in the Court of Honour he that hath Arms. The King cannot make a Gentleman of Blood what have you said nor God Almighty but he can make a Gentleman by Creation If you ask which is the better of these two Civilly the Gentleman of Blood Morally the Gentleman by Creation may be the better for the other may be a Debauch'd Man this a Person of Worth 2. Gentlemen have ever been more Temperate in their Religion than the common People as having more Reason the others running in a hurry In the beginning of Christianity the Fathers writ Contra gentes and Contra Gentiles they were all one But after all were Christians the beter sort of People still retain'd the Name of Gentiles throughout the four Provinces of the Roman Empire as Gentil-hommel in French Gentil homo in Italian Gentil-huombre in Spanish and Gentil-man in English And they no question being Persons of Quality kept up those Feasts which we borrow from the Gentils as Christmas Candlemas May-day c. continuing what was not directly against Christianity which the common People would never have endured Gold 1. THere are two Reasons why these Words Jesus autem transiens per medium eorum ibat were about our old Gold the one is because Riply the Alchymist when he made Gold in the Tower the first time he found it he spoke these Words per medium eorum that is per medium Ignis Sulphuris The other because these Words were thought to be a Charm and that they did bind whatsoever they were written upon so that a Man could not take it away To this Reason I rather incline Hall 1. THE Hall was the Place where the great Lord us'd to eat wherefore else were the Halls made so big Where he saw all his Servants and Tenants about him He eat not in private except in time of Sickness when once he became a thing Coop'd up all his greatness was spoil'd Nay the King himself used to eat in the Hall and his Lords sate with him and then he understood Men. Hell 1. THere are two Texts for Christ's descending into Hell The one Psal. 16. The other Acts the 2d where the Bible that was in use when the Thirty Nine Articles were made has it Hell But the Bible that was in Queen Elizabeth's time when the Articles were confirm'd reads it Grave and so it continued till the new Translation in King Jame's time and then 't is Hell again But by this we may gather the Church of England declin'd as much as they could the descent otherwise they never would have alter'd the Bible 2. He descended into Hell this may be the Interpretation of it He may be dead and buried then his Soul ascended into Heaven Afterwards he descended again into Hell that is into the Grave to fetch his Body and to rise again The Ground of this Interpretation is taken from the Platonick Learning who held a Metampsychosis and when a Soul did descend from Heaven to take another Body they call'd it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the lower World the State of Mortality Now the first Christians many of them were Platonick Philosophers and no question spake such Language as was then understood amongst them To understand by Hell the Grave is no Tautology because the Creed first tells what Christ suffered He was Crucified Dead and Buried then it tells us what he did He descended into Hell the third day he rose again he ascended c. Holy-Days 1. THey say the Church imposes Holy-Days there 's no such thing tho' the Number of Holy-days is set down in some of our Common-Prayer Books Yet that has relation to an Act of Parliament which forbids the keeping of any Holy-Days in time of Popery but those that are kept are kept by the Custom of the Country and I hope you will not say the Church imposes that Humility 1. HUmility is a Vertue all preach none practise and yet every body is content to hear The Master thinks it good Doctrine for his Servant the Laity for the Clergy and the Clergy for the Laity 2. There is Humilitas quaedam in Vitio If a Man does not take notice of that Excellency and Perfection that is in himself how can he be thankful to God who is the Author of all Excellency and Perfection Nay if a Man hath too mean an Opinion of himself 't will render him unserviceable both to God and Man 3. Pride may be allow'd to this or that degree else a Man cannot keep up his Dignity In Gluttony there must be Eating in Drunkenness there must be drinking
Sentence Salus populi suprema Lex esto for we apply it as if we ought to forsake the known Law when it may be most for the advantage of the People when it means no such thing For first 't is not Salus populi suprema Lex est but esto it being one of the Laws of the Twelve Tables and after divers Laws made some for Punishment some for Reward then follows this Salus populi suprema Lex esto That is in all the Laws you make have a special Eye to the Good of the People and then what does this concern the way they now go 2. Objection He that makes one is greater than he that is made the People make the King ergo c. Answer This does not hold for if I have 1000 l. per Annum and give it you and leave my self ne'er a Penny I made you but when you have my Land you are greater than I. The Parish makes the Constable and when the Constable is made he governs the Parish The Answer to all these Doubts is Have you agreed so if you have then it must remain till you have alter'd it Pleasure 1. PLeasure is nothing else but the intermission of Pain the enjoying of some thing I am in great trouble for 'till I have it 2. 'T is a wrong way to proportion other Mens Pleasures to our selves 't is like a Childs using a little Bird O poor Bird thou shalt sleep with me so lays it in his Bosome and stifles it with his hot ●reath the Bird had rather be in the cold Air And yet too 't is the most pleasing Flattery to like what other Men like 3. 'T is most undoubtedly true that all Men are equally given to their Pleasure only thus one Mans Pleasure lies one way and anothers another Pleasures are all alike simply considered in themselves he that hunts or he that governs the Common-Wealth they both please themselves alike only we commend that whereby we our selves receive some Benefit As if a Man place his Delight in things that tend to the common Good he that takes Pleasure to hear Sermons enjoys himself as much as he that hears Plays and could he that loves Plays endeavour to love Sermons possibly he might bring himself to it as well as to any other Pleasure As first it may seem harsh and tedious but afterwards 't would be pleasing and delightful So it falls out in that which is the great Pleasure of some Men Tobacco at first they could not abide it and now they cannot be without it 4. Whilst you are upon Earth enjoy the good Things that are here to that end were they given and be not melancholly and wish your self in Heaven If a King should give you the keeping of a Castle with all things belonging to it Orchards Gardens c. and bid you use them withal promise you that after twenty Years to remove you to the Court and to make you a Privy Councellor If you should neglect your Castle and refuse to eat of those Fruits and sit down and whine and wish you were a Privy Councellor do you think the King would be pleas'd with you 5. Pleasures of Meat Drink Cloaths c. are forbidden those that know not how to use them just as Nurses cry pah when they see a Knife in a Child's Hand they will never say any thing to a Man Philosophy 1. WHen Men comfort themselves with Philosophy 't is not because they have got two or three Sentences but because they have digested those Sentences and made them their own So upon the Matter Philosophy is nothing but Discretion Poetry 1. OVid was not only a fine Poet but as a Man may speak a great Canon Lawyer as appears in his Fasti where we have more of the Festivals of the old Romans than any where else 't is pity the rest are lost 2. There is no reason Plays should be in Verse either in Blank or Rhime only the Poet has to say for himself that he makes something like that which somebody made before him The old Poets had no other reason but this their Verse was sung to Musick otherwise it had been a senseless thing to have fetter'd up themselves 3. I never converted but two the one was Mr. Crashaw from writing against Plays by telling him a way how to understand that Place of putting on Womens Apparel which has nothing to do in the Business as neither has it that the Fathers speak against Plays in their Time with reason enough for they had real Idolatries mix'd with their Plays having three Altars perpetually upon the Stage The other was a Doctor of Divinity from preaching against Painting which simply in it self is no more hurtful than putting on my Cloaths or doing any thing to make my self like other Folks that I may not be odious nor offensive to the Company Indeed if I do it with an ill Intention it alters the Case so if I put on my Gloves with an intention to do a mischief I am a Villain 4. 'T is a fine thing for Children to learn to make Verse but when they come to be Men they must speak like other Men or else they will be laugh'd at 'T is ridiculous to speak or write or preach in Verse As 't is good to learn to dance a Man may learn his Leg learn to go handsomely but 't is ridiculous for him to dance when he should go 5. 'T is ridiculous for a Lord to print Verses 't is well enough to make them to please himself but to make them publick is foolish If a Man in a private Chamber twirls his Band-strings or plays with a Rush to please himself 't is well enough but if he should go into Fleetstreet and sit upon a Stall and twirl a Band-string or play with a Rush then all the Boys in the Street would laugh at him 6. Verse proves nothing but the quantity of Syllables they are not meant for Logick Pope 1. A Pope's Bull and a Pope's Brief differ very much as with us the Great Seal and Privy Seal The Bull being the highest Authority the King can give the Brief is of less The Bull has a Leaden Seal upon Silk hanging upon the Instrument the Brief has sub Annulo Piscatoris upon the side 2. He was a wise Pope that when one that used to be merry with him before he was advanc'd to the Popedom refrain'd afterwards to come at him presuming he was busie in governing the Christian World the Pope sends for him bids him come again and says he we will be merry as as we were before for thou little thinkest what a little Foolery governs the whole World 3. The Pope in sending Relicks to Princes does as Wenches do by their Wassels at New-years-tide they present you with a Cup and you must drink of a slabby stuff but the meaning is you must give them Moneys ten times more than it is worth 4. the Pope is Infallible where he hath Power
Temporal Lords Answ. We do not pretend they have that Power the same Way but they have a Right He that has an Office in Westminster-Hall for his Life the Office is as much his as his Land is his that hath Land by Inheritance 7. Whether had the inferior Clergy ever any thing to do in the Parliament Answ. No no otherwise than thus There were certain of the Clergy that used to assemble near the Parliament with whom the Bishops upon occasion might consult but there were none of the Convocation as 't was afterwards settled viz. the Dean the Arch-Deacon one for the Chapter and two for the Diocess but it happened by continuance of time to save Charges and Trouble their Voices and the Consent of the whole Clergy were involved in the Bishops and at this Day the Bishops Writs run to bring all these to the Parliament but the Bishops themselves stand for all 8. Bishops were formerly one of these two Conditions either Men bred Canonists and Civilians sent up and down Ambassadors to Rome and other Parts and so by their Merit came to that Greatness or else great Noble Men's Sons Brothers and Nephews and so born to govern the State Now they are of a low Condition their Education nothing of that way he gets a Living and then a greater Living and then a greater than that and so comes to govern 9. Bishops are now unfit to Govern because of their Learning they are bred up in another Law they run to the Text for something done amongst the Jews that nothing concerns England 't is just as if a Man would have a Kettle and he would not go to our Brazier to have it made as they make Kettles but he would have it made as Hiram made his Brass-work who wrought in Solomon's Temple 10. To take away Bishops Votes is but the beginning to take them away for then they can be no longer useful to the King or State 'T is but like the little Wimble to let in the greater Anger Objection But they are but for their Life and that makes them always go for the King as he will have them Answer This is against a Double Charity for you must always suppose a bad King and bad Bishops Then again whether will a Man be sooner content himself should be made a Slave or his Son after him when we talk of our Children we mean our selves besides they that have Posterity are more obliged to the King than they that are only for themselves in all the Reason in the World 11. How shall the Clergy be in the Parliament if the Bishops are taken away Answer By the Laity because the Bishops in whom the rest of the Clergy are included are sent to the taking away their own Votes by being involv'd in the major Part of the House This follows naturally 12. The Bishops being put out of the House whom will they lay the Fault upon now When the Dog is beat out of the Room where will they lay the Stink Bishops out of the Parliament 1. IN the beginning Bishops and Presbyters were alike like the Gentlemen in the Country whereof one is made Deputy Lieutenant and another Justice of Peace so one is made a Bishop another a Dean and that kind of Government by Arch-bishops and Bishops no doubt came in in imitation of the Temporal Government not Jure Divino In time of the Roman Empire where they had a Legatus there they placed an Arch-Bishop where they had a Rector there a Bishop that every one might be instructed in Christianity which now they had received into the Empire 2. They that speak ingeniously of Bishops and Presbyters say that a Bishop is a great Presbyter and during the time of his being Bishop above a Presbyter as your President of the Colledge of Physicians is above the rest yet he himself is no more than a Doctor of Physick 3. The Words Bishop and Presbyter are promiscuously used that is confessed by all and tho' the Word Bishop be in Timothy and Titus yet that will not prove the Bishops ought to have a Jurisdiction over the Presbyter tho' Timothy or Titus had by the Order that was given them some Body must take care of the rest and that Jurisdiction was but to Excommunicate and that was but to tell them they should come no more into their Company Or grant they did make Canons one for another before they came to be in the State does it follow they must do so when the State has receiv'd them into it What if Timothy had power in Ephesus and Titus in Creet over the Presbyters Does it follow therefore the Bishops must have the same in England Must we be govern'd like Ephesus and Creet 4. However some of the Bishops pretend to be Jure Divino yet the Practice of the Kingdom had ever been otherwise for whatever Bishops do otherwise than the Law permits Westminster-Hall can controul or send them to absolve c. 5. He that goes about to prove Bishops Jure Divino does as a Man that having a Sword shall strike it against an Anvil if he strikes it a while there he may peradventure loosen it tho' it be never so well riveted 't will serve to strike another Sword or cut Flesh but not against an Anvel 6. If you should say you hold your Land by Moses or God's Law and would try it by that you may perhaps lose but by the Law of the Kingdom you are sure of it so may the Bishops by this Plea of Jure Divino lose all The Pope had as good a Title by the Law of England as could be had had he not left that and claim'd by Power from God 7. There is no Government enjoyn'd by Example but by Precept it does not follow we must have Bishops still because we have had them so long They are equally mad who say Bishops are so Jure Divino that they must be continued and they who say they are so Antichristian that they must be put away all is as the State pleases 8. To have no Ministers but Presbyters 't is as in the Temporal State they should have no Officers but Constables Bishops do best stand with Monarchy that as amongst the Laity you have Dukes Lords Lieutenants Judges c. to send down the King's Pleasure to his Subjects so you have Bishops to govern the inferiour Clergy These upon occasion may address themselves to the King otherwise every Person of the Parish must come and run up to the Court. 9. The Protestants have no Bishops in France because they live in a Catholick Country and they will not have Catholick Bishops therefore they must govern themselves as well as they may 10. What is that to the purpose to what End were Bishops Lands given to them at first you must look to the Law and Custom of the Place What is that to any Temporal Lord's Estate how Lands were first divided or how in William the Conquerours Days And if Men