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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56065	The propositions of the Roman Catholicks of Ireland as also the answer of the agents for the Protestants of Ireland made to the said propositions, and their petitions and propositions to His Majesty, and His Majesties answer to the propositions of the said Roman Catholicks, and the answer of James, Marquesse of Ormond, His Majesties Commissioner for the treatie and concluding of a peace in the kingdome of Ireland, to the said propositions.	Confederate Catholics.; Ormonde, James Butler, Duke of, 1610-1688.	1644 (1644)	Wing P3800; ESTC R36692	41,588	78

THE PROPOSITIONS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICKS OF IRELAND Presented by their Commissioners to His Sacred Majestie in April M. DC XLIV As also the Answer of the Agents for the Protestants of Ireland made to the said Propositions and their Petition and Propositions to His Majesty with His Majesties answer to the Propositions of the said Roman Catholicks And the answe● of IAMES Marquesse of Ormond His Majesties Commissioner for the treatie and concluding of a Peace in the Kingdome of Ireland to the said Propositions 〈…〉 Waterford by Thomas Bourke Printer to the Confederate 〈…〉 Catholicks of Ireland M. DC XLIV TO THE READER WHereas the Supreme Councell of the Confederate Catholicks of Ireland imployed severall persons of qualitie into England authorized by Commission to supplicate his Majestie for redresse of the grievances of the said Catholicks and to settle a firme peace in Church and Commonwealth who having then for some time attended His Majestie to that purpose His Majesties good intentions to the peace of this Kingdome was for that present diverted by the false Informations of persons ill affected to this Nation whose suggestions happened to be then listned unto and answers accordingly given So as the said Commissioners returned into this Kingdome with hopes onely that His Majestie might in time bee better possessed of the power and affections of His Catholicke subjects here and of the use to be made thereof His Majestie being pleased notwithstanding the said informations to give Commission to the Lord Marques of Ormond Lieutenant Generall of Ireland for the continuance and concluding of the treatre begun before His Majestie In pursuance of which Commission the said Catholicks presented their propositions the same in substance they first presented to His Majestie in Oxford unto which some answers were made which being no way satisfactorie were replied unto and so the matter proceeded to a long dispute debate wherein many difficulties occurring the treatie was adjourned and so continues till the tenth of Ianuary next by which time His Majesties resolution upon the whole matter represented unto him is expressed a firme lasting peace hoped for This being the state the treatie is in at this time it may be conceived improper to give an account of the particular passages which are but overtures and alterable as it is well hoped and little to bee doubted but that in this they will bee yet some to breed distraction and mistrusts among the said Confederates or blinded with private and ambitious ends and impatient of any delay have been so malicious or mistaken as to traduce the said Confederate Catholicks and their Commissioners affirming they might have obtained Conditions satisfactorie to any reasonable people but that they rejected the same To satisfie therefore all indifferent Iudgements that may enter into the consideration of the said proceedings and to make it manifest that the whole scope of the said Catholicks was and is for the freedome of the Nation in their Religion Estates and Liberties with out trenching upon His Majesties rights or other end and that it may appeare how farre the proceedings hitherto come short of that It was thought necessary to expose those proceedings to publicke view by putting them to the presse so to cast off those aspersions that ignorant or malicious persons endeavour to cast upon them having yet neverthelesse assured hopes that His Majesty will in time afford remedies to these Complaints and with a gracious eye looke upon the sufferings of this afflicted nation The propositions of the Roman Catholicks of Ireland humbly presented unto His Sacred Majestie in pursueance of their Remonstrance of grievances and to bee annexed to the said Remonstrance 1. THat all Acts made against the professors of the Roman Catholicke Faith whereby any restrainte penaltie mulct or incapacitie may bee layed upon any Roman Catholicke within the Kingdome of Ireland may bee repealed and the said Catholicks to be allowed the freedome of the Roman Catholicke Religion 2. That your Majestie will bee pleased to call a free Parliament in the said Kingdome to bee held and continued as in the said Remonstrance is expressed and the statute of the tenth yeare of King Henry the seventh called Poynings act and all acts explayning or enlarging the same be suspended during that parliament for the speedy settlement of the present affaires and the repeale thereof to bee there further considered of 3. That all acts and ordinances made and passed in the now pretended parliament in that Kingdome since the seventh day of August 1641. be cleerely annulled and declared voyd and taken of the file 4. That all Indictments Attainders Outlawries in the Kings Bench or elsewhere since the said seventh day of August 1641. And all letters pattents grants leases custodiums bonds recognizances and all other records act or acts depending thereupon or in prejudice of the said Catholicks or any of them bee taken off the files annulled and declared void first by your Majesties publicke Proclamation and after by act to be passed in the said free Parliament 5. That inasmuch as under collour of such outlawries and attainders debts due unto the said Catholickes have been granted levyed or disposed of and of the other side that debts due upon the said Catholicks to those of the adverse partie have been levied and disposed to publicke use that therefore all debts be by act of Parliament mutually released or all to stand in statu Quo. notwithstanding any grant or disposition 6. That the late offices taken or found upon fayned or old titles since the yeare 1634. to intitle Your Majestie to severall Countreyes in Connaght Thomond and in the Counties of Tipperarie Lymmericke Kilkenny and VVickloe be vacated taken off the file the possessors setled secured in their ancient estates by act of Parliament And that the like act of limittation of your Majesties titles for the securitie of the estates of your subjects of that Kingdome be passed in the said parliament as was enacted in the one and twenty yeare of his late Majesties raigne in this Kingdome 7. That all Marckes of incapacitie imposed upon the natives of that Kingdome to purchase or acquire lands leases offices or hereditaments be taken away by act of parliament and the same to extend to the securing of purchases leases or grants already made And that for the education of youth an act be passed in the next parliament for the erecting of one or more Inns of Court Vniversities free and common schooles 8. That the offices and places of command honour profit and trust within that Kingdome be conferred upon Roman Catholicks natives in equalitie and indifferencie with your Majesties other subjects 9. That the insupportable oppression of your subjects by reason of the Court of Wards and respit of homage be taken away and a certaine revenue in lieu thereof setled upon your Majestie without diminution of your Majesties profit 10. That no Lord not estated in that Kingdome or estated and not resident shall have

their oath declared by the statute of 18. Elizab. will not stop or suspend the proceedings of the Court for the great Seale privy seale or his Maiesties letters writs or commandements And your Lordship may please to observe that by long experience it is manifest that since the making of those Lawes being foure-score and odde yeares the penalties or forfeytures in them expressed have not beene so prevalent as to draw them the said Catholickes from the Religion professed by them and their Ancestors and no advantage did in so long a tract of time accrue to the Crowne by those statutes And seeing his Maiesty is content that moderation should be used towards the said Catholickes to what purpose should the said penall lawes be continued in force whereas the continuation thereof can produce no other effect then jealousies and feares in the mindes of the people A free Parliament is propounded and a new Parliament is meaned Reasons against the 2. Answer in this answer to be granted It is true that Parliaments in their Essence ought to be free yet some examples shewing the contrary in this kingdome and a clause in the answer viz. That the Parliament shall be dissolved upon an attempt onely of propounding any other matter then shall be agreed upon by the Articles of Peace which attempt may bee purposely done by some averse to peace to dissolve a Parliament and the taking away of the said clause attempt doth induce the said Catholickes to supplicate the inserting of a free Parliament And that all the acts to be concluded on by the treaty may not be transmitted into England in regarde the substance of that which will bee passed as acts without transmission are to be inserted in the articles of peace which none other act of Parliament is to passe upon the suspension of Poynings act without transmission according to the usuall manner wherefore the said suspension can bring no manner of prejudice upon his Majestie or the publicke service and that by the granting thereof the peoples mindes will be much quieted The said Catholicks do therfore humbly desire that the said act be suspended as is by them propounded If the now pretended Parliament or eyther of the houses of Parliament made any Orders or Ordinances to the prejudice of the said Reasons against the 3. Answer Catholicks the same Parliament may vacate them take them off the file And it is not to be presumed that any member of Parliament is so litle affected to the peace or quiet of the kingdome that he will give opposition to the third proposition or to his Maiesties direction or to your Lordships request in that behalfe And the said Catholickes conceive it necessary in point of honour and reputation that no Order or Ordinance to their prejudice may remayne of Record in Parliament And if no such Order or Ordinance bee the proposition can hardly be denied wherefore it is humbly desired that the answer may Reasons against the 4. Answer be more full and satisfactory Vpon consideration of the fourth proposition of the reasons for the same it is humbly desired this answer be enlarged to the greater advantage of the said Catholickes then is expressed and although his Majesty cannot avoyde Recordes of this nature by Proclamation yet when his Majesty is informed that those indictments and outlawries were done of designe to extirpate a Nation and that in the proceedings it will appeare and here was practised his Majesties proclamation in a case of this generall concernment declaring his dislike of such proceedings will be of great consequence and his direction to the Parliament to that effect will no doubt accomplish the desire of the said Catholicks contained in this Proposition and his Royall directions to have the Procurers Actors and Plotters of and in the said indictments and outlawries and the whole proceedings questioned and the designe and practise being discovered and proved then the said records and all matters depending hereupon ought in law and justice to bee vacated and taken off the file and the pardon in the answer mentioned restores neither blood nor estate as it is there set downe and admitting the pardon were by Parliament it will bee of absolute necessitie to avoid all grants letter-patents leases and other acts letters or promises made to the prejudice of the persons attainted and to restore them to their blood and estate in which act a clause condemning the manner of the procuring of the said indictements and outlawries is thought necessary to bee inserted and the exception mentioned in the said answer is humbly desired by the said Catholicks to bee taken off and the clause viz. His Majesty will enlarge his mercy to be made more particular This answer is humby desired to bee made equall to all parties one Reasons against the 5. Answer way or other as it is propounded and that Catholicks should pay debts due upon them and loose the debts due unto them is conceived not to bee equall By his Majesties graces of the fourth yeare of his raigne all the Reasons against the 6. Answer estates in the Province of Conaght and Countie of Clare in pursuance of the Indentures of composition made by the late Queene Elizabeth for great and valuable considerations with the Lords and Gentrie of the said Province and Countie and of the grants and promises of the late King Iames of happy memorie were to bee confirmed and made good by act of Parliament the statute of limitation was then to bee passed which extended to all estates in the Kingdome therefore no greater rent ought to bee reserved upon the lands in the said Province or Countie nor upon the lands in the Counties of Tiperarie and Lyndak then was answeared to his Majestie in the said fourth yeare of his Majesties raigne And the great offices intituling his Majestie unto the before mentioned lands and to many mens estates in the County of Wickloe and to the territorie of Idough in the Countie of Kilkenny were enforced by an high hand the free-holders thereof being in possession of their repective estates then and for many ages before without interruption or question It is therefore humbly desired that those offices bee vacated and taken off the file by his Majesties gracious directions his highnes or his patentees being therein onely concerned as to the title found by those offices And that the statute and limitation may bee here enacted with a retrospect to the fourth yeare of his Majesties raigne at which time it was promised by his Majesty to have been passed as an act in this Kingdome and if it had beene so done the said offices had not been found And that the case of the Countie of Wickloe and the Countie of kilkenny meriting equall justice and favour with the rest ought not to be distinguished from them The clause in the said answer concerning Innes of Court and free-schooles as it is expressed in the answer will debarre Roman Catholicks Reasons against part of the 7 Answer so long as they are of that Religion from attaining to the knowledge of the lawes of the land or any other learning within this Kingdome This answer is conceived not to be satisfactorie and to generall and particular instances of the markes of his Majesties favour towards Reasons against the 8 Answer the ●aid Catholicks is humbly desired The reasons against this answer in all the parts thereof are the same that are urged for the ninth Proposition and upon consideration of To the 9. Answer those reasons the answer is humbly desired to be enlarged His Maiesties answer made to the 25. grievance in the 17. yeare of To the 10. Answer his Majesties raigne gives five yeares time to the unestated Lords to acquire estates in this Kingdome It is therefore humbly desired that the answer may be more satisfactory on consideration of the reasons for the tenth proposition and the state of affaires is so altered since that time that upon the now intended generall settlement more circumspection and warines is to be used then at any time before The said Catholicks doe conceive and affirme in all cleerenes that the Parliament of Ireland is independent of the Parliament of England To the 11. Answer without which independency this realme could be no Kingdome nor any Parliaments here necessary nor any subject of this Kingdome sure of his estate life or liberty other then at the will and pleasure of a Parliament wherein neither Lords Knights nor Burgesses of this Kingdome have place or vote and which vowed the destruction of all or most of this nation and unwarrantably assumed the power to dispose of their estates by the Statutes of subscription to malignants and Hollanders To draw this into any debate or question might prove of most dangerous consequence to this nation And yet a declaration of the Parliament here and an act as in the proposition is set down is humbly desired in regarde his Maiesty was drawne to give the Royall assent to the acts of subscription This answer is humbly desired to be enlarged according to the reasons The 12. Answer for the twelfth proposition The rates of staple commodities are humbly desired to be moderated by Commissioners to be appointed by both houses of Parliament The 13. Answer The reasons for the not continuance of the chiefe governor above three yeares are the same urged for the fourteenth proposition The 14. Answer The reasons for the erecting and continuance of trayned Bands are the same that are urged for the fifteenth proposition The 15. Answer This answer is humbly desired to be enlarged and the act of oblivion to extend to goods taken of eyther side although the Roman Catholickes suffered much more then all others in this warre and The 16. Answer your Lordship will consider the reasons for this proposition It is of necessitie the tryall of the persons to be excepted be by parliament The 17. Answer otherwise the tryall cannot be indifferent in this case Wee desire notwithstanding those reasons to be admitted to shew such further and other reasons and to adde herevnto what wee shal thinke fit touching the matter wherein the answers are short or not satisfactory FINIS

vote in the said parliament by proxie or otherwise and none admitted to the house of Commons but such as shall be estated and resident within the Kingdome 11. That an act be passed in the next parliament declaratorie that the parliament of Ireland is a free parliament of it selfe independant of and not subordinate to the parliament of England And that the subjects of Ireland are immediatly subject to your Majestie as in right of your Crowne and that the members of the said parliament of Ireland and all other the subjects of Ireland are independant and no way to bee ordered or concluded by the parliament of England and are onely to bee ordered and governed within that Kingdome by your Majestie and such Governors as are or shall be there appointed and by the parliament of that Kingdome according to the lawes of the land 12. That the assumed power or Iurisdiction in the Councell-boord of determining all manner of causes bee limitted to matters of state and all pattents estates and grants illegally and extrajudicially avoyded there or elsewhere be left in state as before and the parties grieved their heires or assignes till legall eviction 13. That the statutes of the eleventh twelfth and thirteenth yeare of Queene Elizabeth concerning stapple-commodities be repealed reserving unto your Majestie lawfull and just pondage and a booke of rates to bee setled by an indifferent Committee of both houses for all commodities 14. That in as much as the long continuance of the chiefe governor or governors of that Kingdome in that place of so great eminencie and power hath beene a principall occasion that much tyrannie and oppression hath beene exercised upon the subjects of that Kingdome That your Majestie will bee pleased to continue such governors hereafter but for three yeares And that none once imployed therein bee appointed for the same againe untill the expiration of six yeares next after the end of the said three yeares And that an act passe to disinable such governor or governors during their government directly or indirectly in use trust or otherwise to make any manner of purchase or acquisition of any mannors lands tenements or hereditaments within that Kingdome other then from your Majestie your heires or successors 15. That an act may be passed in the next parliament for the raising setling of trained bands within the seuerall Counties of that Kingdome as well to prevent forraigne invasions as to render them the more serviceable and ready for your Majesties occasions as cause shall require 16. That an act of oblivion be passed in the next free parliament to extend to all your Majesties said Catholicke subjects and their adherents for all manner of offences capitall criminall and personall And the said act to extend to all goods and chattells customes maine-profits prizes arreares of rents taken received or incurred since these troubles 17. For as much as your Majesties said Catholicke subjects have been taxed with many inhuman cruelties which they never committed your Majesties said suppliants therefore for their vindication and to manifest to all the world their desire to have such heynous offences punished and the offendors brought to Iustice doe desire that in the next Parliament all notorious murders breaches of quarter and inhuman cruelties committed of either side may bee questioned in the said Parliament if your Majestie so thinke fit and such as shall appeare to be guiltie to be excepted out of the said act of oblivion and punished according their deserts For as much DREAD SOVERAIGNE as the wayes of our addresses unto your Majestie for apt remedies unto our grievances were hitherto debarred us but now at length through your benigne grace and favour layd open Wee doe humbly present these in pursuance of the said Remonstrance which granted your said subjects are ready to contribute the ten thousand men as in their remonstrance is specified towards the suppressing of the unnaturall rebellion now in this Kingdome And will further expose their lives and fortunes to serve your Majestie as occasions shall require The Answers of the Agents for the Protestants of Ireland to the Propositions of the Roman Catholicks of Ireland made in pursuance of his Sacred Majesties directions of the ninth of May 1644. requiring the same 1 TO the first wee say that this hath beene the pretence of almost all those who have entred into Rebellion in the Kingdome of Ireland at any time since the Reformation of Religion there which was setled by act of Parliament above eighty yeares since and hath wrought good effect ever since for the peace and welfare both of the Church and Kingdome there and of the Church and Kingdome of England and Protestant partie throughout all Christendome and so hath beene found wholesome and necessarie by long experience and the repealing of those Lawes will set Popery againe both in jurisdiction profession and practice as it was before the said Reformation and introduce amongst other inconveniences the Supremacie of Rome and take away or much endanger your Majesties Supreme and just authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall a diminution of honour and power not to be endured The said acts extending aswell to seditious sectaries as to popish Recusants So as by the repeale thereof every man may seeme to be left to choose his owne Religion in that Kingdome which must needs beget great confusion and the abounding of the Roman Clergy there hath beene one of the greatest occasions of this late Rebellion Besides it is humbly desired that your Maiestie will be pleased to take into your gracious Consideration a clause in the act of Parliament past by your Majesties Royall assent in England in the seventeenth yeare of your raigne touching punishment to be inflicted upon those that shall introduce the authoritie of the See of Rome in any case whatsoever 2. Whereas they desire to have a free Parliament called reflecteth by secret and cunning implication upon your Majesties present Parliament in Ireland as if it were not a free Parliament Wee humbly beseech your Majestie to resent how dangerous it is to make such insinuation or intimation to your people of that kingdome touching that Parliament wherein severall acts of Parliament have already passed the validitie where of may be endangered if the Parliament should not be approved as a free Parliament and it is a point of so high nature as we humbly conceive is not properly to be discussed but in Parliament And your Majesties said Parliament now sitting is a free Parliament in Law holden before a person of honour and fortune in that Kingdome composed of good loyall and well affected subjects to your Majestie who doubtlesse will be ready to comply in all things that shall appeare to be pious and just for the good of the true Protestant Religion and for your Majesties service and the good of the Church and State That if this present Parliament should be dissolved it would be a great terrour and discontent to all your Majesties protestant subjects of that

this Kingdome or in England bee recompenced out of the estates of those malignant in this Kingdome The Answer of IAMES Marques of Ormond his Majesties Commissioner for the treatie and concluding of a Peace in this Kingdome for and in the Name and behalfe of his Majestie to the additionall Propositions of his Roman Catholicke subjects of Ireland c. VVhen all the particular demands made on the behalfe of his Majestie the Church and his Majesties Protestant subjects and their partie shall bee concluded his Majestie will be graciously pleased on his part to agree to the particulars hereafter expressed viz. 1. TO the first proposition his Maiestie hath declared his pleasure in this point excepting in that part which concernes privie Counsellors in his answer to the eight grievance in the seventeenth yeare of his Maiesties raigne which his Maiestie will be graciously pleased may stand as a rule in this case And as to that part which concernes privie Counsellors the same shall be humbly represented to his Maiestie and his Royall pleasure therein expected 2. To the second proposition his Maiestie will be graciously pleased to assent to this proposition yet so as first there be care taken to secure his Maiesty in the particulars proposed in the sixt and seventh Articles of the demands in the behalfe of his Maiestie delivered by the Lord Lieutenant on this treatie to the Lord Muskery c. 3. To the third proposition The particulars wherein it is desired that the Court of Castle-chamber may be limitted are to be proposed and then such consideration shall bee had of this proposition as shall be fit 4. To the fourth proposition his Maiesty will be graciously pleased that the two acts in this proposition mentioned be suspended for such time as on this treaty shal be agreed on 5. To the fift proposition The lawes have already provided for the manner of appointing Sheriffes from which course his Maiestie thinkes not fit to vary 6. To the sixt proposition After a peace shall be fully setled application may be had herein to his Maiestie who in his high wisedome best knowes how to extend his Royall favour in this particular 7. To the seventh proposition For the first part of this proposition the Lord Lieutenant declareth that his Maiesties Commission to him warranting this treaty gives him authoritie to conclude a Peace but gives him no authority for pub●lshing such a Proclamation or for such a prosecution as in this proposition is proposed and for the later part of this proposition the granting thereof is inconsistent with the condition of a free parliament 8. To the eight proposition when the Proposers shall present to the Lord Lieutenant the names of the persons in this proposition intended to be impeached and attaynted such consideration shal be had of this proposition as shal be fit 9. To the ninth proposition the proposers setting downe the particulars of the things contayned in this proposition such consideration shall be had thereof as shal be fit 10. To the tenth proposition his Maiesty will be pleased to advise concerning this proposition 11. To the eleventh proposition this is left to further consideration on debate 12. To the twelfth proposition this is not held fit for his Maiesty to be assented to on this treaty yet the case of remittals or abatements we intend humbly to represent to his Maiestie who will be graciously pleased in fit time to set downe such a course herein by Commission or otherwise as may still further magnify his goodnesse and indulgence to all his subiects 13 To the thirteenth proposition his Maiesty may not assent to this it being against the libertie of the subiect and the lawes of the Land 14. To the fourteenth proposition Such of the estates in this proposition mentioned as shall a crue to his Maiesty is to be left to his Maiesty to be disposed of as in his high wisedome he shall thinke fit Demands in the behalfe of His Maiestie 1. THat present restitution bee made by the Confederate Roman Catholicke Party of the Command Rule and Government of the Cities of Limmericke VVaterford Kilkenny and Cashell the Townes of Galway Clonmell VVeixford and Rosse and of all other Cities Townes Counties and Territories of right belonging to his Majesty and now in the possession or under the command of the said Confederate Roman Catholicke party that restitution be like wise made by them of all his Maiesties Castles Fortes Lands Tenements and hereditaments and of all his Maiesties Ordnance Artillerie Armes and Amunition which have beene seised on or taken by the said Confederate Roman Catholicke party since the 21. of October 1641. in the Cities of Limmericke VVaterford Galway the Castle and Towne of Newry Charlemount and other places within the kingdome And that all such power Iurisdiction or Government as hath beene assumed by the said Confederate Roman Catholicke party over their partie since the 22. of October 1641. be from hence forth abrogated deserted and deemed voyde And that all his Maiesties subiects aswell the Roman Catholickes as others within the kingdome shall be from henceforth ameaneable to the Lawes of force in this kingdome and obedient to his Maiesties government and Courts of Iustice 2. That all the Armies raysed by the said Confederate Roman Catholicke party with their Armes and munition and such Fortes Garrisons and Wardes as are now kept by them shall from henceforth be under the command of his Maiestie and his Maiesties Lieutenant or other his Maiesties chiefe governor or governors of this kingdome for the time being and such others as his Maiesty from time to time shall appoint 3. Thirdly that his Maiesty may be answered such certayne Rents Compositions and Casuall profits and Subsidies and all Customes and Subsidies for Merchandize as were accrued and growne due before and on the 23. of October 1641 and which shall from henceforth grow due 4. That all the remaine of the thirty thousand eight hundred pound appearing to be payable to his Maiestie by the Instrument signed by the Lord Muskery and others dated 16. of September 1643. which hath not yet beene payed in money or Cattle in manner as in an Instrument signed by the said Lord Muskery and others dated the xvj of September one thousand six hundred forty and three is expresled bee payed to his Maiesties Vice-treasurer and Treasurer at Wars or to his deputy or to such other person or persons as the Lord Lieutetenant or other chiefe governor or governors of this kingdome for the time being shall appoint to his Maiesties use by the said Confederate Roman Catholicke party at by or before the day of next 5. That the said Confederate Roman Catholicke partie doe make a true account and present payment of his Maiesties Customes and Impositions of VVaterford and Rosse according to the Booke of Rates for all such Commodities as have been exported out of or imported into the said Harbours since the xv of September 1643. 6. That the grant