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A12592 A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie. Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them. 1588 (1588) STC 22909; ESTC S117654 118,250 200

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the wisdome of thy God that is in thine hand set Iudges and arbiters which may iudge all the people that is beyonde the riuer euen all that knowe the Lawe of thy God and teache yee them that knowe it not And whosoeuer will not doe the Lawe of thy God and the Kings lawe let him haue iudgement without delay whether it be vnto death or to banishment or to confiscation of goods or to imprisonment Esra 7. verse 25 26. And least any should take exception against Artaxerxes commaundement Ezra cleareth it of all suspition of vnlavvfulnesse in these vvordes Blessed bee the Lorde God of our fathers which hath inclined the Kings heart to beautifie the House of the Lorde that is in Ierusalem Ezra 7. verse 27. Augustine the Bishoppe of Hippo in Africke vvas a very famous man hee vvas sometimes of opinion that heretiques vvere to bee pressed by argument and not by the Magistrate his reason then vvas Ne fictos Catholicos haberemus quos apertos hereticos noueramus That is least vvee should haue them counterfait Catholiques whome wee knewe to bee notorious heretiques But after weightie consideration hee chaunged his former opinion and is very resolute that Recusants may and ought to bee compelled by the Magistrate August Epist. 48. 204. Siterrerentur non docerentur improba quasi dominatio videretur Sed rursus Si docerentur non terrerentur c. August Epist. 48. that is to punish and not to teach were tyrannie againe to teach and not to punish were to harden them in their auncient custome and to make them slowe to enter the path of saluation Exi in vias sepes compelle intrare Luke 14. Qui compellitur quò non vult cogitur sed quùm intrauerit iam volens pascitur August Epist 204. that is Go out into the high wayes and hedges and compell them to come in he that is compelled is compelled to enter against his will but when hee is entred hee is fedde willingly Ad caenam tanti patrisfamilias si sponte non vultis intrare compellimus August contra 2. Gaudentij Epist lib. 2. cap. 28. that is to the supper of so great an householder if you wil not of your owne accord we compell you to enter Quod autem vobis videtur inuitos ad veritatem non esse cogendos c. August contra 2. Gaudentij Epist lib. 2. cap. 17. That is where as yee thinke that men are not to bee compelled to the Trueth against their vvilles yee erre not knovving the Scriptures nor the povver of GOD vvhich maketh those vvilling though they bee compelled against their willes Qui phreneticum ligat lethargicum excitat ambobus molestus ambos amat Aug. Epist 48. That is he that bindeth a frantike man and awaketh him that hath the lethargy loueth both though he be grieuous to both 2. A GODLY PRINCE MAY not suffer any religion but the true religion either publikely or priuately in his Dominions THe exercise of false religion is directly against the sanctification of the Lords Sabboth Exo. 20. therefore the Prince may not at any hande suffer it The Morall lawe as it teacheth the worship of Almightie God in the first and honestie of life in the second table of the commandements is perpetuall and bindeth vs vnto the worldes ende The Israelites being in captiuitie in Egypt were required by Pharao to sacrifice to Almightie God in Egypt Moses refused c. Exod. 8. The Israelites being in captiuitie in Babylon were required by the Chaldeans to sing one of the songs of Sion They refused and answered thus How shall we sing the Lords song in a strange land Psal 137. Of these places I gather my argument thus It was not lawfull to sacrifice in Egypt and to sing the Lords song in Chaldea which were polluted landes therefore it is not lawfull to suffer Idolatrous popish seruice in Englād which is a holy land That professed papists are Idolaters it is manifest first they worship false gods for they worship Angels and Saintes deceased which are no gods Secondly they worshippe not the true God aright for they doe not worship him according to his written worde Confession consent in the true religion is Vinculum ecclesiae the chaine and bond of Gods Church for the Apostle saith there is but one faith Ephe. 4.5 therefore dissension and difference in religion is a dissolutiō of Gods Church But no prince may haue any either hand or litle finger in dissoluting Gods Church for Kings and Queenes are the nursing fathers and mothers of the Church Esai 4.9 It is the Princes duetie to prouide for the safetie of the bodies therefore much more for the safety of the soules of his subiects If for the safetie of their soules then they may not suffer them to poyson their soules True religion is the foode of the soule It is but one To swarue from that is the bane of the soule It leadeth to hell The Shipmaster and shepheard must keepe his shippe and sheepe from rocke and wolfe Qui non scruat si potest periturum occidit The prince is bounde to serue the Lord in feare Psal 2. therefore he may not suffer almightie God to be dishonoured by any of his subiects God is notably dishonoured when false worship is suffered either publikely or priuately The Angel of the Church of Pergamus is reproued by Christ for hauing such in Pergamus as maintained the doctrine of Balaam and the doctrine of the Nicolaitans which God hated The Angel of the Church of Thyatira is reproued by Christ for suffering Iezabel c. to teach and to deceiue Apocal. 2. therfore Princes sinne grieuously which suffer the exercise of a false religion A godly prince may not suffer a wilfull breach of his owne lawes therefore not of Gods lawes Almightie God is greater then all Princes His lawes doe as farre passe the princes as the gold of Ophir the clay in the street Besides they which hate Gods religion and consequently sinne against the first table are easily induced to disobey their prince which is a sinne against the second table It was a famous speech of the Emperour Constantius the father of Constantinus the Emperour Howe can they bee fast and true to the Emperour which are Traitours to Almightie God Euseb lib. 1. de vita Constant King Asa deposed Maachah his mother from her regencie because she had made an idoll in agroue Asa brake downe her idoll and stamped it at the brooke Kidron 2. Chron. 15. Ezechias and Iosias were famous Kings of Iuda They destroyed the groues and temples of the idols They destroyed the groues and temples of the idols They tooke a direct course for Gods religion Almightie God may not bee dalied with in his seruice There must be no parting of stakes Hee will either haue all or none Ezech. 20. The Lordes Altar and Baals Altar must not stand together Iudg. 6. Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon made a decree that euery
of Christ Alexander the bishop of Alexandria both misliked condemned his filthy heresie Socrat. lib. 1. ca. 6. There was hotte stirre in the church of Alexandria The Lordes arke and the Philistines Dagon the Ephesians Diana and Pauls preaching Poperie and the Gospell cannot stand together Asa was a religious Prince he suppressed idolatrie and planted Gods religion The kingdome was quiet before him and hee vanquished the Ethiopians 2. Chron. 14. 15. Chap. Iosaphat was a zealous promoter of the Lords religion Almightie God crowned him with this blessing The feare of the Lorde fell vpon all the kingdomes of the lande that were round about Iudah and they fought not against Iosaphat the Philistines brought to Iosaphat giftes and tribute siluer the Arabians brought him flocke both of rammes and goates 2. Chron. 17. Vzziah the King of Iuda prospered so long as hee sought the Lord. Almightie God helped him against the Philistines and Arabians the Ammonites gaue him tribute and his name was famous euen vnto Egypt 2. Chron. 26. Ezechias was a carefull aduancer of Gods religion The land had great quietnesse and was notably deliuered from the Assirians 2. Chron. 32. Queene Elizabeth hath planted the Lords religion Popes Gregory Pius Sixtus haue cursed her Maiestie the Popish enemies haue bene are maliciously bent against her this land as Sennacherib Rabsakeh against Ezechias and Ierusalem but God hath blessed and miraculously preserued her Highnes and Dominions as he did Ezechias Ierusalem the greatest enemies of the English natiō are the sinnes of the English nation but if we desire and obtaine pardon for our sinnes at Gods hands shal serue our God sanctifie his Sabboth more carefully then we haue done the Lord wil goe forth with our armies our captaines and souldiers shall amaze and vanquish our Popish enemies as Gedeon did the Madianites Iephthe the Ammonites and Dauid the Philistines and our gracious God will couer both Prince people with the shield of his Iustice and defend vs with the sworde of his Iudgement Obiection When the Gospell is preached stirres doe grow that appeared in Ierusalem Act. 7. in Iconium Act. 14. in Rome Act. 28. Answere I grant that stirres appeare sometimes when Gods trueth is deliuered the fault is not in the seede but in the ground It was not Elias that troubled Israel but Achab and his fathers house which forsooke the Lords commandements followed Baal 1. King 18. The holy preaching resembles medicine daylight and the heate of the sunne It is not the medicine but euil humors which distemper the body varietie of colours are not made but discerned by the day light The heate of the sunne is not the cause but the descrier of the stinke of a carrion 6. THE CHILDE OF GOD is not polluted though hee bee present at and partaker of the publique prayers Sacraments c. at such time as wicked men are present at and partakers of them IN the Prophets time there were many grosse corruptions at Ierusalem The magistrates Priests and people were greatly disordered The Lordes religion was partly contemned and partly defiled Did the holy Prophets seuer them selues from them of Ierusalem in Salomons temple Did they builde newe either Churches to assemble in or Altars to sacrifice vpon It is certaine they did not and yet they were not polluted Our Sauiour Christ was presented to the Lord in Ierusalem An oblation was giuen Luk. 2.22 Hee was afterwards partaker of the Sacrifices in Salomons temple with the Scribes Pharises vngratious people of Ierusalem My reasons are First Christ was subiect to the law Gal. 4.4 One branch of the Law was to be partaker of the Sacrifices in Salomons temple Secondly Christ in the dialogue with the woman of Samaria speaking of himselfe and the Iewes vseth these wordes We worship that which we knowe Ioh. 4.22 Vnder the worde worship are contained the sacrifices Calu. contra Anabapt The Churches of Corinth and Galatia had many and grosse sores in them Saint Paul I confesse deales very roundly with them yet hee doth not either license or cal vpon Gods seruants in Corinth and Galatia to seuer themselues from the assemblies If to be present in the assemblie had brought pollution the Apostle woulde not haue failed in this Christian dutie Let a man examine himselfe 1. Cor. 11.28 The Apostle doeth not say Let euery man examine the rest of the communicants which no doubt hee would haue giuen in charge if the lewdnesse of others did pollute Gods seruants He that eateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh iudgement to himselfe 1. Cor. 11.29 Saint Paul saith to himselfe not to others The Apostles receiued the Lords supper with Iudas Aug. contra Lit. Petil. lib. 2. cap. 11. 23. lib. 3. cap. 106. But they were not partakers of Iudas theft Aug. contra Cresc Gram. lib. 4. cap. 26. or Iudas treason Acceditur ad vitium corruptionis vitio consensionis Aug. contra Don. post Coll. lib. That is to consent to vice is to bee corrupted with vice That Iudas was a theefe Saint Iohn reporteth Ioh. 12. vers 6. That the Apostles did knowe before the partaking of the holy supper that Iudas should betray Christ appeareth manifestly in the Euangelist Matthewe Matt. 26. vers 21 23 25. The most famous men before and in our time are of my side Augustine in his writings against Petilian Parmeniā Cresconius the Donatists and Caluin in his treatise against the Anabaptistes are very peremptory in this Argument None can or wil mislike it vnlesse they be alreadie or meane to bee Donatistes or Anabaptistes Obiection The Apostle commaundes vs to withdrawe our selues from euery brother that walketh inordinately 2. Thess 3.6 Answere We must withdrawe our selues Quoad priuatam consuetudinem non quoad publicam communionem that is touching priuate conuersation not touching publike partaking of the worde and Sacraments Caluin is of this Iudgement in his treatise against the Anabaptistes If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I am content to admit notorious sinners to the holy table he doth me great wrong and is refuted in my treatise of the Sacraments where I vse these wordes It is a great sinne for a knowen wicked man either to minister the Lordes supper or to present himselfe to the holy communion and such lewdnes must bee seuerelie punished by them in whose handes it is to redresse it But if this grosse sinne be practised and no medicine vsed to cure it the godly must content them selues with griefe for these enormities and remember that the Sacrament sealeth vp Gods sweete promises to them which the wicked sort at no hand are partakers of 7. THEY VVHICH VVERE baptized in the Popish Church by Popish Priestes receiued true Baptisme touching the substance of Baptisme THe Popish priestes doe retaine the essential forme of Christs baptisme that is they doe baptise in the name not of Pope or idoles but of the holy Trinitie therefore it
I grant that the outward calling maketh a wicked man a substantiall magistrate in that towne or Citie ouer which he is set But I am very sure that because he wāteth the inward calling c. that almightie God doth not allow that magistrate My proofe is contained in these words of God himselfe They haue set vp a king but not by mee they haue made Princes and I knewe it not Hos 8. that is I did not consent vnto it and allow it The reason is Almightie God had appointed the posteritie of Dauid to sit in the seat of that kingdome vntil the comming of christ The Israelites did set vp Ieroboā c. It pleased you to write that they of whose ministerie there is a nullitie before God that is that they whō God hath not furnished with gifts are not to bee accompted ministers of vs. I doe see no reason why in your iudgement I say yours not mine there should not be the like sense of this propositiō viz. they of whose magistracy there is a nullitie before God that is that they whome the Lord hath not furnished with giftes c. are not to bee accompted magistrates of vs. I grant that both ministery and magistracie are Gods ordinance but euery minister and magistrate is not so If they were wee coulde not distinguish as we may betweene rem personam that is betweene the man and the function CHAP. 13. I. Penry THERE BE THREE ESSENtiall differences betweene an euill magistrate and a reading minister 1. THe outward calling of an euill Magistrate maketh him a substantiall Magistrate so cannot the outward alowance of Readers make them to be Ministers R. Some I graunt that there are and may be many more essentiall differences betwene Magistrates Ministers then you set downe Yet this simile shall be good for matter and maner in this sort viz. Vnfit Magistrates outwardly called are Magistrates to vs therfore vnfit Ministers outwardly called are Ministers to vs. My reason is the aboue named Magistrates and Ministers agree in vnfitnes and outwarde allowance I confesse that vnfit men ought not to be aduanced either to Magistracie or Ministerie yet the actiōs of vnfit both Ministers and Magistrates are substantiall to vs vntill they be remoued That an argument may very fitly be drawen from the magistracie to the ministerie appeareth by this litle which I haue deliuered To proceede I doe not see why the outward allowance of the Church doeth not distinguish vnpreaching Ministers from priuate men as well as outwarde baptisme doeth distinguish such as are baptized from Paganes I. Penry 2 The Magistracie of an euill Magistrate may be allowable before God so cannot the Ministerie of Readers R. Some In your seconde difference the Magistracie and Ministerie are strangely sorted You should haue set it downe thus the Magistracie of an euil Magistrate may be allowable before God so cannot the ministerie of euill Ministers If you had matched them so I woulde haue answered that both Magistracie and Ministerie is of God whatsoeuer the Magistrate or Minister is If you will not deliuer your second difference otherwise then you haue I answere first that the Magistracie of Pilate Licinius c. was of God though his Maiestie detested such Magistrates Secondly that though ignorant men are not allovved by Almighty God for good and sufficient ministers yet the outvvarde calling doeth distinguish them to vs from priuate men othervvise it vvere vvide vvith your ignorant Leuites I. Penry 3. Men may be assured to receiue that according to the ordinance of God substantially at the handes of an euill Magistrate which concerneth them to haue from him so can they not of a bare Reader for there is no man that can assure himselfe to be partaker of a substantiall Sacrament at the handes of such and preach they cannot I haue handled this point of the Magistracie in my former booke from page 47. to 51. R. Some There is some good thing I cōfesse in the vvorst gouernment therefore the Philosophers resolution is that it is better to liue vnder a tyrant then vnder no gouernour In this last difference of yours you giue me some aduātage for the corrupt Magistrate hath and may peruert iustice that is sell the righteous for siluer and the poore for shooes but the ignorant minister cannot peruert the Sacramēt which is Gods ordinance and you haue giuen out often in your Treatise that you denie them not to be the Sacraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper vvhich are deliuered by vnpreaching Ministers You confesse in this place that Magistracie is the ordinance of God You say very truely but in your Addition whither you referre me you haue hādled that point vvith very foule and bepitched handes In your Addition you vse these vvords viz. Magistracie is an humaine ordinance that is as you expounde it not an Ecclesiasticall constitution prescribed in the word This is a very grosse and Anabaptisticall errour Almightie God saith thus By mee Kings reigne Prou. 8. Our Sauiour Christ a litle before his condemnation ansvvereth Pilate which was gouernour of Iudea vnder the Romanes in this sort Thou couldest haue no power at all against mee except it were giuen thee from aboue Iohn 19. The Apostle Paul writeth thus There is no power but of God and the powers that bee are ordeined of God whosoeuer therefore resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God Rom. 13. The Greeke Poet can teach you this Lesson 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euery learned man knoweth first that the ciuill gouernement before in and after the time of Nimrod and after the departure of the Israelites out of Egypt vntill their entrance into the land of Chanaan and in Chanaan vntill and after the captiuity in Babylon was the Lords ordinance appeareth in Gods booke Secondly that the disposing of the foure famous Monarchies viz. the first of the Chaldeans the second of the Medes and Persians the third of the Macedonians the fourth of the Romanes was Gods ordinance and set downe in his holy booke Lastly the reuerēce of the Magistrates which is printed by almightie God in the hearts of subiects inferiours doth cry aloude against you that magistracy is not a deuise of man but an Ecclesiasticall constitution and ordinance of almighty God prescribed in his holy worde If you tell me that the Apostle Peter calleth magistracie an humaine ordinance 1. Pet. 2 I grant he doth so but his meaning is not that magistracy was ordeined and deuised by man but by almighty God for the benefit of man No man vnlesse he bee an Anabaptist expounds the Apostle Peters words as you doe so that not the Apostles wordes but the sense which you giue them is Anabaptisticall Non scriptura sed sensus scripturae est haeresis that is Not the scripture but the sense of the scripture is heresie CHAP. 14. I. Penry WHETHER THE GODLY doe sinne which receiue the holy Sacrament at the hands of an vnpreaching Minister THe Sacrament may not