children of Israel out of the Land of Egypt when Pharaoh vexed them h at which time God wrought their deliverance i separating wondrously between the Egyptians and the Israelites and that which was light to the one was darkenesse to the other Afterwards when Cerah and his Congregation rebelled against God and were obstinate therein k the people were commanded to depart from the tents of those with 〈…〉 l were the children separated from the parents and those who did not separate were destroyed by fire m and swallowed by the earth n upon the day which God had appointed * as 〈…〉 Noahs time who repented not were swallowed by wateâ— Moreover when God brought his people into the promised Land he commanded them to be separated from the Idolaters and not to meddle with the accursed things And for this cause God gave them his Ordinances and Commandements and by the manifestation of their Obediance to them they were known to be the onely people of God * which made a reall separation And when they were carried captive into Babylon aâ— any time for their sinnes God raised them up deliverers to bring them from thence and Prophets to call them from thence p and from their backesliding q And it was the practise of all the Prophets of God which prophesied of the Church under the New Testament to separate the precious from the vile and God hath declared that hee that so doth shall be as his mouth Jer. 15. 19. And we know it was the practise of the Apostles of the Lord Iesus to declare to the people that there could be no more agreement betweene beleevers and unbeleevers than betweene light and darkenesse God and Belial as Paul writing to the Corinthians doth declare when he saith Be not unequally yoked together with unbeleevers for what fellowship hath righteousnesse with unrighteousnesse and what communion hath light with darkenesse and what concord hath Christ with Belial or what part hath he that beleeveth with an Infidell and what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idolls for yee are the Temple of the living God as God hath said I will dwell in them and walke in them and I will be their God and they shall be my people Wherefore come out from among them and by yee Separate saith the Lord and touch not the uncleane thing and I will receive you and I will be a Father unto you and yee shall be my sonnes and daughters saith the Lord Almighty 1 Cor. 6. 14 15 16 17 18. Moreover they are pronounced blessed which reade heare and keepe the words of the Booke of the Revelation of Iesus Christ r among which sentences there is a commandement from heaven for a totall Separation s These things in briefe I have minded from the Scriptures to prove the necessitie of Separation and though the Scripture be a deepe Well and containeth in the Treasures thereof innumerable Doctrines and Precepts tending to this purpose yet I leave the further prosecution of the same till a fitter opertunity be offered to me or any other whom the Lord shall indue with a greater measure of his Spirit But Mr. Edwards for preparation to this his desperate intention hath sent these Reasons against Independant government and Toleration and presented them to the Honorable House of Commons which Reasons I thinke he would have to be get a Snake to appeare as he saith under the greene grasse for I am sure he cannot â—ake the humble petitions of of the Kings subjects to be a Snake for petitioning is a way of peace and submission without violence or venum neither can it cast durt upon any government of the Nation as he unjustly accuseth the Protestation Protested for that Author leaveth it to the Magistrate not undertaking to determine of himselfe what government shall be set ever the Nation for the bringing of men to God but leaveth it to the consideration of them that have authority And whereas Mr. Edwards grudges that they preach so often at the Parliament in this he is like unto Amaziah who bid the Prophet Amos to flee away into the Land of Juâ—â—a and not to Prophesie at Bethel the Kings Chappell and the House of the Kingdome * And though Mr. Edwards boast himselfe heare to be a Minister of the Gospell and a sufferer for it yet I challenge him to prove unto me that he hath any Calling or Ordination to the Ministry but that which he hath successively from Rome If he lay claime to that he is one of the Popes household But if he deny that calling then is he as void of a calling to the worke of the Ministry and as void of Ordination as any of those Ministers whom hee calleth Independant men which have cast off the Ordination of the Prelates and consequently as void of Ordination as a macanicall trades man And therefore I hope that Honourable House that is so full of wisedome which Mr Edwards doth confesse will never judge these men unreasonable because they do Petition nor their petitions unreasonable before they are tried and so proved by some better ground then the bare entrance of Mr. Edwards his Cavit or writ of Ne admittas though he saith he foâ—ched it from heaven for I know it was never there Neither is it confirmed by the Records of holy Scripture but taken from the practise of Nimrod That mighty Hunter before the Lord * and from the practise of Haman that wicked persecucuter * from the evill behaviour and malicious speeches and gesture of wicked Sanballet * and Tobias who were both bitter enemies to God and sought to hinder the building of the walles of Jerusalem But the Prophet Haggai reproveth not onely such as hindred the building of the Lords House but also those that were contented to live in their seyled Houses and suffer the Lords House to lie waste Hag. 1 AN ANSVVER To Mr. EDVVARDS his BOOKE Intituled REASONS against the Independent GOVERNMENT in particular CONGREGATIONS Mr. EDWARDS I Understanding that you are a mighty Champion and now mustering up your mighty forces as you say and I apprehending they must come against the Hoast of Israel and hearing the Armies of the Living God so defied by you could not be withheld but that I in stead of a better must needs give you the meeting First Whereas you affirme That the Church of God which is his House and Kingdome could not subsist with such provision as their father gave them which provision was by your owne confession the watering of them by Evangelists and Prophets when they were planted by the Apostles and after planting and watering to have Pastors and Teachers with all other Officers set over them by the Apostles their own Election yet notwithstanding all this provision the Father hath made for them it was evident say you they could not well stand of themselves without some other helpe This was the
have but something amongst you wanting yet that were to be desired and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the Kingdome nor for private men to set up true Churches Answer Indeed If your Church Ministers could be proved true which you see is a thing unpossible then it had beene needlesse as you say to leave the Land but neither is your Church nor Ministers true nor can the Ordinances be had amongst you without sinne and that this is the judgement of the Independant men is plaine by your former confession Where you affirme they will not heare of growing into one body or communicating with you before a Reformation neither submit to your Classes or Presbyters as Jure Divino But in the next place you say the setting up of devided Churches would be to the scandall of all the Churches and not the giving of scandall to one brother but to tenne thousands of Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards you overshoote yourselfe in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler for you would make men beleeve that you desire to keepe your Church and brethren unspotted and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your Church making them so foule a people that they ought not to be communicated with * Further your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull he may beare I tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull and therefore all the Lords people as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in Gods waves have cause to separate from your Church and to practise Gods Ordinances among themselves as well as they who are separated already which you here you call Brownists and the grounds and causes be so great that they may well be justified But you would have conscious men to consider Mr. Robinson concerning circumstantiall corruptions you say he shewes it is not an intolerable evill for evill men be suffered in the Church c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill Two things are here to be minded First that you would still please your selfe with this that you have a true Church though corrupted which hath beene proved contrary Secondly that you would justifie your Church by the sinnes of others But you know what Mr. Robinson saith That the government instituted by Christ is not onely neglected or violated in the Church of England but the plaine contrarie to it is established by Law But you say now supposing your Reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ But you may see it is verie plaine that the crueltie and wickednesse of the Church of England hath increased ever since that time You say there is but something neglected and you would make it the want of some Law to suppresse evill men To which I answer That your Canon Lawes be evill Lawes and your Lawmakers evill men and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make Lawes to suppresse evill men Thirdly you say that they whom you call Independant live in and are members of such Churches and yet they thinke it unlawfull to forsake them I pray you have any of them told you that their Churches be like the Church of England you must make proofe thereof for in this I will not take you upon your bare word Further you say they want some parts of Government and Officers appointed by Christ more matertally than will be in your Church upon a Reformation I answer I have plainely proved to you that Christs Church hath his Government and Officers but your Church hath neither Christs Government nor Officers But what it will be upon the Reformation I cannot tell But you say they must want the Ordinances or else they must have them with instruments without ordination I answer This is untrue as hath beene proved at large in the answers to one of your former Reasons against Independancie But you say you would have them heare with the defects in your Church and waite till God give you more light I answer I know noâ—e that interrupteth you for wee will neither meddle with your Idols nor with your Gods if you would but suffer us to worship our God after the way that you call heresie The next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it will not be for edification to the Church but for destruction and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your Church though something were more there to be desired yet you say there will be nothing contrary put upon them nor quite another thing Now that something may be omitted for a time that may plainely appeare for a man that hath brought his gift to the Altar and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him must leave the offering of his gift and goe and be reconciled to his brother Matth. 5. 23. 24. Now that affirmatives binde not alwayes is plaine for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility but in such cases God accepteth the will for the deede Further whereas you say the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time when it is not for Edification of the Church but for destruction I say true discipline being rightly used is alwayes for the edification of the Church and never for destruction And whereas you affirme that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you or quite another thing I answer wee know you have none of Gods Ordinances without some other thing to accompany them Fourthly you say that they may safely be members of your Church in the Reformation of you I answer You might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a Reformation But the Reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from Rotterdam that reason still remaines though you say it is ceased and will remaine till the Reformation you have formerly promised But say you that practise they judge themselves tied to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation I answer I have told you before in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third Reason I now tell you againe that you make your Priests the head and body both but Christ hath given the power to the Church which is his body by whose power every Officer and member thereof doth move and doe their severall Offices Fifthly There is say you a medium between persecution and a publike Toleration a middle way say you betweene not suffering them to live in the Land and granting them liberty I Answer This is a very true thing for Pharaoh would have beene willing that the children of Israel
for whether they have Parsonage or Vicarage their pole-money comes in so thicke to them and their followers that it would make any sober minded man or woman to wonder how they can consume it for besides their ordinary tithes or maintenance which is the principall they have many other petty aues which they require of every one of the Kings subjects they are not so reasonable as his Majestie which is contended with pole-money from his subjects from 16. yeares old and upward but they will have a share out of him that is borne without life as it will plainely be proved for if a dead child be borne into the world they will be paid for reading a dirge over it before it shall be laid in the earth and they will be apt to inferre that that their deere brother is departed in the faith though it be the childe of theeves and murderers and the like Further they will yet have another patrimony for the birth of that childe for before the mother dare goe abroade shee must have their blessing that the Sun shall not smite her by day nor the Moone by night for which blessing of theirs they must have an offering and the like they require for all the children that be borne into this world though there live not one of sixe to be men or women But for as many of them as doe live they enlarge their Revenewes for if they live to come to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper then they must pay their offerings yearely to the Priest though the bread and wine be provided at the parishes charge Further if they live to enter into the state of Matrimonâ— then they must be joyned together by a Priest for which worke of his he must have a large Offering And these men be not content to take money where there is money as the King is but they will have these which they call dues of him that liveth of the very almes of the Parish whereas the King taketh not a penny of any that receive almes Then if we consider their exaâ—â—ion how they oppresse the people by their cruell forcing of them to pay so much as they demand though it be contrary to all Law or equity it will cause us to wonder at the hardnesse of their hearts for rather then they will abate any thing of what they demand they will force poore people even to pawne their cloathes for I am able to prove that they doe demand of poore people before they can have a childe that is but fourteene or fifteene yeares of age buried in one of the out-Church-yards of the great Parishes which land is the free gift of the dead for the helpe of the poore even as Creplegates new Church-yard or Algatâ—s Rosâ—mary lane or White Chappell Mile-in greene or others the like before I say they can have such a child buried there it will cost the poorest parent seven or eight shillings Nay I have knowne when they have distrusted paiment that they have affirmed that they would not bury them except they had their money paid before hand Nay when any poore man bringeth out of the remote places of the city any Corps to Bedlam which is the cheapest place that I know ye when all things else is discharged even as Bearers wages Graveâ—â—â—gers wages and the ground paied for also yet they must be constrained to have a twelve-penny Priest to say something over the grave and he will grudge if he have not more than a snilling though he say but a few words without the booke when perhaps all the people that be'left alive in the Family be not worth a shilling Furthermore If any poore man have a necessitie to worke upon one of their Saints-dayes then Mr. Paritor must come and have a grote for citing him to the Court but if he appeare not he must be Presented and for not paying Fees he shall be Excommunicated and he shall never be blessed in again but though he be the poorest man in the Kingdome the price of his blessing will be a noble at the least but if he happen to die an Excommunicant then his friends must give money to absolve him after he is dead or else he shall not be buried in the consecrated Earth but if his friends will goe to the Office and give but a matter of five pound for his Absolution after he is dead then he shall be buried in the Consecrated ground and they will also affirme he died in the Faith of Christ ye though he were excommunicated for notorious sinne and lived and died obstinately in it It is a plaine case therefore that these men are a greater plague to this Land then the naturall Locusts of Egypt for they ate up the greene things but these eate up both greene and dry Nay further I conceive they are more prejudiciall to the Common wealth than the Frogges that came up upon the Land of Egypt for they entred into the Oven and into the Kneading Trough and wee reade not that they ascended higher than the Kings bed and the beds of his Servants but these are exalted above the Chimney tops to catch a Smoke-penny from every poore mans house Thus you see the mighty Revenewes of the Priests If I had but time to tell you of the things which I know even of the extent of their Revenewes what is gained unto the generality of Priests by granting of Licenses to Midwives and to Schoolemasters with divers of their own Officers such as Paritors Sumners Pursevants with a number of that Ranke which have strange names that I know not It would as I said before make all men wonder how it is devoured for they must be freed from all taxations and have their houses rent free and many times eate their bread at other mens tables and yet for the most part they die poore men and farre in debt and leave behinde them both wives and children destitute of Calling and Maintenance which is a plaine case to me that the hand of God is upon this Generation in cursing that which they would have blessed And therfore I will confesse that I was overseene in the entrance into this Discourse when I moved you to perswade these men to bequeath some thing to their brethren that are Schollers bred for I did not consider that though they received much yet they had but little to give because it is not blessed for increase but I should rather have comforted you with giving you knowledge that God hath provided maintenance for his Ministers as well as for his People that they neede not bow to you for a morsell of bread for God taught his Apostles to worke with their hands as Paul saith that his hands ministred to his necessities and those that were with him Acts 20. 34. not that Paul might not receive of the people carnall things for he declareth the contrary in another Scripture and I hope all the Lords people will confesse that the labourer
should have stayed in Egypt and made him bricke but he would not suffer them to goe into the wildernesse to offer sacrifice But if Pharoah had beene willing to have succoured the children of Israel he would have commanded his taskemasters not to lay burthens upon them that they could not beare but he did not doe so and therefore their bricke-making turned to persecution even as your injunctions and penall Lawes doe here in England and you binde them up with a pretence of his Majesties command which makes the burthen very mighty By this it is plaine that no good man can live in England without persecution even at this day But you would have them to have a third way for you say persons may live in the Land and injoy their Lands and liberties and not be compelled to professe and practise things against their conscience I pray you Mr. Edwards bethinke yourselfe now how untruly you speake and whether you doe not looke one day to give an account for your words for you know that no man can live in this land and enioy his lands and liberty but he shall be forced to worship according to the custome of the Nation Nay children that be but sixteene yeares of age though ignorant and scandalous in their lives are forced to receive the Sacrament of the Lords Supper though it be to their utter condemnation Further you adde that if upon petition to the Parliament the Papists should have the Statutes repealed which injoyne them to come to your Church yet say you the granting the Papists a publike toleration for their Religion would be quite another thing in as much as you say though the Papists were the first in pâ—tâ—tioning for the former yet they move not for the latter For answer to this I tell you First That for granting the Papists publike exercises will not much crosse your principles for they and you are naturall brethren Secondly for that they move not for the latter as you say They neede not for they injoy it without moving and till this Parliament none hath disturbed them for many yeares But further you adde that so you judge that the Independant men may live in the land freely and injoy their liberties and estates but you have your clause whereby you still crosse all your own tale your clause is that it must be by comming to your Churches and enjoying the Ordinances Whereas you say so you judge it presupposeth that the Papists doe come to your Churches by what comes after that it must be by comming to your Churches and enjoying the Ordinances Indeede the Papists may come to your Churches and injoy your Ordinances for first they were their Ordinances for when you apostated from Rome you carried the Romish traditions with you even as your forefathers in their apostacie from Christ Iesus carried some of his Ordinances with them so you retaine something of Gods to make your owne ware passe in sale and have patched you up a bundle of worship borrowing â—lso some Iewish and Heâ—â—henish Ceremonies to make up your paâ—ke and will you be so kinde to suffer men to live in the land if they will but submit to this worship and promise them they shall never be compelled to professe or practise any more Indeede you are very liberall but it hath beene often said already and you have said it yourselfe that the Independant men cannot of conscience communicate with you before a Reformation Therefore if this be the medium you have betweene leaving the Land and toleration even that they must submit to your worship you might have bequeathed this Legacie to some that would accept of it and give you thankes for the Lord hath bequeathed liberty to his Sâ—â—â—ts and Servants and hath purchased it at a deare price even that they should be freed from all Egyptian bondage and hath commanded them to stand fast in that liberty wherein he hath made them free and whether they must obey Gods commands or your counsell be judge your selfe Sixâ—â—y you say If the former answers will not satisfie but that they must needs be in a Church fellowship as now they are then you say you you will shew them away according to their owne principles of a visible Church For answer whereof I must tell you that fallacies and false conclusions upon mens words without bringing their conditions can satisfie no man concerning the matter in hand but it may satisfie all men of your evill minde that you still labour to turne away the truth as it may appeare by the way you here have chalked them out to walke in which is That because it is their principle say you that a few Saints joyned together in a Covenant have power therefore you imply that there should never neede a greater addition to them * This you may know crosseth the whole Scripture as the very prophesies of the Church under the New Testament that is to say that a little one shall become a thousand and a great one a strong Nation Esay 60. 22. and that they should grow up as the Calves of the stall Mal. 4. 2. not onely in greatnesse but also in number and especially when the Lambe overcommeth that is even when the Saints overcome by the blood of the Lambe and the word of their testimony not esteeming their lives to the death Therefore you might have saved your schollership when you went about to teach them to make Churches in houses and also to come to your Church to the Word Prayer and Sacraments for they have not so learned Christ to come one part of the day to worship before the Idols and to stand another part before God for if they should doe so the Lord saith Ezek. 44. 13. they should not come neere him neither to doe the office of the Priest nor to come neare the holy things but that they should beare their shame and their abomination Further you might have saved your labour in teaching them to make family Church es for God hath directed them what to doe in their Families And it is not the practise of Gods people to shut out from their prayers and holy duties them that are of their Family for God gave his Law to Abraham for another end namely that he should teach it his Family and by so doing traine up members in his family for Christs Family Further you might have spared your care taken to shew a way for maintenance for those men among us that are schollers bred for if you can find no better maintenance for them then to come and be Lecturers amongst you as you would have them and to live in hope of the gifts of the dead that is no good provision for for want of those shooes men may goe long barefooted seeing they cannot by your owne confession doe that of conscience till there be a Reformation But you might rather have perswaded your Parish Priests to have bequeathed some of their large revenewes unto them