mighty reason a minore ad majus which words indeed I vnderstand not is this If say you our Lord Iesus his disciples and people did not separate from thire Sinagogues and assemblies that vvere in faith and maners more defectiue then ours are much lesse ought they to separate from our assembles vvherein all the grounds of Christian religion are soundly held and professed you might haue added and but fevv practise neither of preists nor people in vvhom couetousnes vvrath enuie and contention doe daily abound many thousands neither knowing nor regarding to knovv vvhat true faith meaneth and for their manners vvhich you vvould seeme so much to commend let the manners even of that Parish assembly vvherein your selfe did of late exercise your spirituall authority in vain as also the mānerly conditions and conversation of almost all in generall testifie hovv true this your bold affirmation of their manners is and vvithall let the Readers minde that although you boast of all the grounds of christian religion yet it is but held and professed not practised among you so that it may seeme you beleeue also that to hould and professe vvithout obedience is sufficient for the salvation of the professors but to the intent that this may be better discerned I doe intreat and desire all that are christianly minded to reade and consider of these fevv places of scripture Iam. 1.21.22.25.26 Tit. 1.16.2 Thes 1.7.8.9 Eze. 22.26 I vvill only poynt the places let the godly reade and iudge 4 Demand Novv to your fourth demand vvhich is Whether those great multituds of people spoken of Math. 14.13.14.15 c. Ioh. 6.5.10.11 can with any reason be denyed to be members of the visible church though yet wanting the pretended constitution of the Separatists and albeit many of them you say were drawne not by doctrine but by miracles report and with their desire to be fed c. 4 Answ To this your demand I ansvver directly yea they may vvith good reason grounded on the word of God speaking as you doe of the multitude be denyed to be members of any visible Church and this doth plainely apeare in the same 2 chapters namely Mat. 14. Ioh. 6. which may also be compared with other scriptures to proue the same There were none of them members of the visible Church of Christ but those that did visibly appeare to be Christs Disciples but the multitude that followed him for their bellies sake were not his Disciples as the very words of the text doe proue where a diffecence is put betweene the one and the other First looke Mat. 14.19 where it is said Hee caused the multitude to sit downe and when he had blessed broke he gaue it to the disciples the disciples to the multitude And whē they had all eaten were sufficed he caused his disciples to enter into a ship while he sent the multitude away Mat. 14.22.23 Mar. 4.4 If you say he taught them altogether it is true yet was it in parables and afterward he expounded all things to his disciples aparte Mar. 4.10.11.34.35.36 Mat. 13.10.11.13.14.15.36 And thus it doth plainly appear that the multitude were not his disciples and consequently not members of any visible Church of Christ for then he would not haue sent them away empty in their soules and full in their bodyes but he would haue expounded all things to them altogether for their edification and further comfort But the text doth plainly shevv the disciples to be vvithin and the multitude to be without Mar. 4.10.11.12 And whereas you further demand Whether those 3. thousand in the second of the acts that were converted at Peters Sermō were not true mēbers of a true visible Church before they had officers chosen among them c. I Ansvver yea they were this you say cannot bee refuted and it is true but what haue you gained by this what doth this helpe the multitude spoken of before If I should charge you here with deceitfull dealing by shuffling this place of the Acts with the other tvvo places of scripture therby to make your demand seem something and of some weight blinding therewith the eies of your readers I doubt you could hardly cleere your selfe with a good conscience but howsoever you would seeme to shuffle them together to serue your turne yet they are plainly distinguished thus as followeth This place of the Acts speaketh of three thousand godly penitent sinners pricked in their hearts for their sins and converted at that sermon the multitude spoken of in the other two scriptures were not such by your owne grant Againe these in the second of the Acts received the apostles doctrine gladly and forsaking that froward generation with whom they lived they ioyned them selues vnto the Church as appearath in the 37.40 and 41. verses Now who can deny these 3. thousand though still the multitude be denied to be members of the true visible Church when the text saith they were added to the Church although it should be granted that as yet they had no other officers chosen but the Apostles But then say you And why not our Church-assemblies in England much more grounded in the faith a true visible Church c. I ansvver no it vvill not follovv because howsoever some fevv of yovv may be more grounded in knovvledge of the truth then they vvere and thereby your sins and transgressions much more greater against God by knovving more and obaying lesse your parrish assemblies vvere not at the first gathred from others by the preaching of the vvord their hearts being touched vvith godly sorrovv for their sins neither do they yet appeare to be pricked in their hearts for their sins as those three thousand vvere Your parish assemblies do not gladly receiue the Apostles doctrine and continue therein vvith gladnes of heart to be directed and ordered thereby as they did but every man among you vvill doe vvhat his owne heart listeth euen according to the frowardnes and anger of his euill heart so that vvere it not for the lavves of the nation and the power of the magistrates restrayning them more then the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles the manifold mischiefs that would be done by one against another among you through the enuie and malice of your euill and wicked hearts is too manifest to be denyed and too shamefull to be defended I do hartely desire you Sir to examine your own heart well in this point minde well the exhortations that the Apostle giveth in Heb. 3.12 2. Cor. 13.5.6.7.8.9.11 1. Cor. 11.28.29.30.31 you see and know that your Parish-assemblies are so far from continuing in the Apostles doctrine that they neither konw therfore not receiue nor yet regard to know what the wholsome doctrine of the Apostles meaneth I speake not this of all in particular the Lord knoweth my heart is far from so thinking I know many that haue tender consciences and loving affections and do well regard the best rhings but I speake generally of the
that those to vvhom you sued for redresse could not or vvould not giue any more vertue power or efficacy to your Ministry and office you tooke the best course as you thought even to leaue them in their Idolatry and prophanes and come avvay from them for the vvhich I vvould haue you minde vvell and consider vvhat the Lord saith Zacha. â—â— 17 surely sir seeing that you thus deeme of things by the effects you can not but thinke very hardly of your selfe considering the small effect your ministry hath vvrought especially amongst your Morris-dauncers And yet for further ansvver to your demand consider sir vve are a poore vveak dispised people here in England hated and persecuted of all or the most part in the lande and therefore if vve haue any meetings or comming together on the Lords day they must be very private for feare of such persecuting adversaries as cannot indure and are ignorant of the truth of Gods ordinances to be taught and practised so that Papists Atheists and such like profane come not at our exercises and hovv is it possible vve should convert any that come not to heare vs If vve should demand of you how many Turks and Saracens haue been converted in your Parish assemblies vvhat ansvver vvould you giue vs that vvill not ansvver your selfe 2 To let passe the Churches in this vvay beyond the seas vvhich haue their more free meetings and able ministeries and vvhere this blessing of God in converting men is more seen then I think in any of the Parishes that ever you your selfe vvere minister of though you haue beene in more then a good many or then a good Pastour should or vvould be I may bouloly say that we hovv fevv or meane soever vvee are do convert more to our Churches thou you do to yours All these Atheists Heretickes and prophaine persons vvere as vvell of your Church before their conversion as after and for the Papists eyther they come to hear you and then they are of your Church also namely Church-Papists or not and then hovv doe you convert them by your ministry Besides it is evident that the number of Papists do dayly increase in the land infinitely such is your plentifull conversion of Papists But indeede Sir your follovving vvords vvherein you please to terme vs refined reformers saying that we seduce only the sound and pervert and estrange from you those that are otherwise well affected of som vnderstaÌ„ding c. are worth the considering and I intreat the Godly readers to take knovvledg of this that follovveth First I professe vnfainedly vvith an vpright heart as in Gods presence vvho knovveth the secrets of all hearts that neither I my selfe nor any other to my knowledg that professeth the same course of true religion vvith me did ever intend or once conceiue so much as in thought any one poynt or parte of sedition or evill conspiracie against any mans person much lesse against the kings maiesty his royall state government but vve do acknowledge his maiesty to be supreme governour in all his dominions in all causes and over all persons of vvhat estate or degree so ever they be and that no person may declyne or appeall from his authotity or iudgment in any cause vvhatsoever but that in all things obedience is due vnto him eyther Actiue if the thing commanded be not against Gods vvord or Passiue if it be except pardon can be obtained and hereunto vvee doe diligently exhorte and provoke all men at all times c. This being in the first place considered it is true that you say our cause hath vvrought most vppon such as haue some vnderstanding and knovvledg and are of tender consciences plyable to the truth others of more corrupt consciences haue set against us and against our cause and blasphemed it c. The consideration of this will in any wise mans iudgment rather lead vnto our cause then from it when the better sort by your owne confession doe come to vs the worser and baser sorte remayne still with you And this much for answer to your second demand novv to your third This your third demand is of another kinde differing from the former for here you seeme to leaue your nationall Church and Parishassembles of England and make your demand only for your reformed assemblies wherein you say the Gospell is sincerely preached and professed and the sacraments duly administred c. But of this particular you shall haue ansvver vvhen I come to your 7 and 8 demand 3. Demand Your demand is here to know Whether those reformed Assemblies whereof you speake are worse then the Iewes Sinagogues and your ministers worse then the Scribes and pharises which sat in Moses Chayer Whom Christ commanded the people to heare c. 3 Answ Your demand then being onely in desence of your reformed Assemblies it had been vvell if you had shevved us vvhere and vvhich those assemblies be that are reformed Wee knovv indeed that many amongst you both ministers and people haue made much suite to Parliaments and vvrote many bookes of vvhich I haue read some for reformation of your Church and Ministery but still to the best of our discerning all your parish assemblies are as before vnder one and the same order and maner of vvorshippe ministerie and confusion of people all governed by the fame spirituall laws spirituall Lords their spirituall courts and canons all being stil one Church all one communion and fellovvshippe so that your Demand being onely for your reformed assemblies and yet you tell us not which nor vvhere they be how can vvee giue you a direct ansvver to your demand First therefore tell us vvhere and vvhich those assembles be that are reformed then you shall haue a direct ansvver God vvilling In the meane time vve vvill take this for one advantage among the rest that is that there appeareth a checke in your conscience because you make your defence or demand but for a part of your Church that is your reformed assemblies vvhereby you intimate that there is a vvorser sort of assemblies that are vnreformed vvhich you vvill not pleade for vvhere as if your Church or Church-asseÌ„blies of England vvere Christs true Church vve thinke you should haue labored to defend the vvhole is not every one of Christs true Churches to be defended hovv deceitfully then doe you deale vvith your Church that seeke to vphould your reformed assembles and neglect the rest all being in one brotherhood and communion together But it may be sir you are driven to shift for your selfe therefore if you vvill shevv vs vvhich be your reformed assembiles vve will shevv you great difference betvveen those Sinagogues of the Ievves vvhere Christ and his disciples did teach and your parish assemblies great difference betvvene those that sat in Moses Chayre vvhich vvere in true office vnder Moses according to the lavv and you vvith the rest that haue no true office vnder Christ according to the gospell Your
conditions of the most with whom the better sort stand all in the communion and in one order or disorder rather being mingled together all in one brotherhood and that not by personall fayling but by the very constitution and lawes of your Church civill and ecclesiasticall cleane contrary to the revealed will of God in his Word Even you your self Sir that are a leader and professe your selfe to be a guide to the blinde you breake the law of God and defile his holy things you put no difference betweene the holy and prophane neither discerne between the vnclean and the cleane so the Lord is prophaned among you Eze. 22.26 Consider I pray you and compare together these few places of Scripture Mat. 18.1516.17 Rom. 16.17 1. Cor. 5.11.12.13 2 Thes 36.7 c. and then compare this order heere appointed by Christ and his apostles vnto the order of your Church and Parish-assemblies you shall see even by these 5. places of scripture how far you are from that holy order which Christ in his last will and testament hath given and appointed vnto his visible Church to walke in and to practise You compell all that are of your Parish howsoever vnworthie or vnable to pay their offrings and to receiue the communion especially at your holy time of Easter there is the table prepared bread and wine set come that will and welcom Esay 65.11.12 yea if they be dwelling in your Parish and will not pay their offrings and come to the communion daily they are by you presented into your spirituall Courts thither they are summoned if they appeare not obedienly paying their fees clearing the bookes c. they shall be by that Court excommunicated out of your Parish-assemblies and then before they may be admitted againe either to the fore named banquet or to your devine service as you call it their purses must pay deere enough for a blessing or absolution which they must receiue humbly kneeling on their knees before Mas Commissary or Mas Chancellors worship and if they die excōmunicate before they haue received this bounsing blessing they may not be brought into your holy ground to be buried there in christian buriall as you call it vnlesse their friends will first purchase absolution for them If the mould of this came not from Rome then I pray you Sir shew vs where you learned it for in the whole Bible we cannot finde any such spirituall order given or appointed by God vnto his Church 5 Demand Your 5. demand is Whether that in Constantines the first Christian Emperour tyme and ever since vnto M. Iohn Calvins dayes for the space of 13 hundered yeeres there was no Christian Churches in Asia Africke and Europe because they had the same outward constitution formall state Bishops Archbishops Metropolytans and Church government for substance substance of doctrine that our English Church hath and retaineth c. To tell you the truth I know not well how to answere this your demand yet not because it is so divinely grounded on the word of God but only because I want scoole learning and knowledge of auncient Authors writings as being not able to read and vnderstand them so that now you haue me at a non plus as wise men and fooles vse to say Yet this is one thing much to be lamented that a man of your place and learning should leaue the Scripture the true worde of the living God and thus inquire of the dead but according to the ould proverbe like will to like 5 Answer Thus much I say for answer to this your far-fetched demand I do beleeue and am fully perswaded by the word of God that in whatsoever Emperours or Kings time since the time of Christ in what Nation or Country soever whether in Asia Africk Europe or wheresoever any Church or Churches hath been is or shall be gathered or constituted in any other manner or by and with any other matter vnder or vnto any other worship ministry spirituall Governours or spirituall government then the same for substance in manner and matter which Christ and his Apostles haue appointed in the new testament they are not the true visible Churches of Christ I do not meane hereby an absolute true and perfect gathering or constituting but that all things both for the gathering and continuing of the true visible Church of Christ must be so far as can be discerned by men agreable to the word of God as God shall make men able to discerne and vnderstand the Scriptures And this is all that I can say for answer to this your demand only I will not loose the good advantage that I haue gained by the same which is this I see that you are not able to approue your Church by the word of God and therefore you are driven to make inquiry and to look about you to see if you can espie and find out any other Churches though never so far of whose constitution or gathering ministry and worship ecclesiasticall Governors and Ecclesiasticall government is for substance lyke vnto you hoping by them to iustifie your selues but how like it is that other Churches can afoord you any help or sauegard when as by the verdict of Gods word you stand cōdemned let the godly iudge Hee hath neede of a staffe that leaneth on a reed And yet even for this your poore proof it is affirmed by some who know those histories that it is a very boast without all truth that the Churches either in Constantines time or a long time after were gathered by compulsion of all tag and rag in the empyre as yours are of all in the kindome or that there were any such Arch Bishops or Lord Bishops with sole authority to rule and governe Besides let the Reader note how in your very Demand you do grauut the great difference betweene the Churches since Calvines time that is betweene all reformed Churches and your vnreformed Church of Enland 6 Demand Your sixt Demand is Whether the reformed Churches in the lower and higher Germany in France the Churches in Geneva c. that come neerer to our constitution and discipline you say then yours in England do be true visible Churches or no c. To this your Demand you haue added two branches depending vppon the former the which I will answer as you haue set them downe one afer another 6 Answer I answer yea they are true visible constituted Churches and haue a true and lawfull ministery set over them both which you in your Parish-assemblies want Then you further demand and say If they be such why then do not we adjoyn our selues to some of those but distaste them you say as much as wee do yours I thinke Sir it had been a poynt of wisedom first to haue heard our answer before you had thus hastily affirmed that we distast them as much as we do yours but Solomon hath answered you for your haste Pro. 29.20 And I will answer your Demand I haue in my