vnto his feete and a light vnto his pathes So shall conscience be a sure guide and he reforme himselfe by true obedience both to God and man Otherwise as I haue saide what we call conscience is but a fancie a conceit and a false erroneous perswasion such as if we still will follow against God against prince against countrie and all that euer any gouernours or friendes can say vnto vs the daie will come when wee shall feele with woe the punishment of such obstinacy and true conscience shall witnesse the want of conscience in so proudly disobeying all good perswasions which God forbid in his great mercy and turne our hearts in time vnto his trueth M. But I take it there is a plaine scripture that who so doth a thing which in his heart he thinketh he should not doe committeth deadly sinne because he doth against his own conscience or against his owne pretensed knowledge S. Good mother the scripture you mean as I conceiue is written in the 14 chapter of the Epistle to the Romans where the blessed Apostle saith He that doubteth is condemned if he eate because he eateth not of faith and what soeuer is not of faith is sinne Which place little helpeth any popish ignorance or stubburne wilfullnesse but is greatly by Romish Catholickes abused and wrested as other scriptures to serue for their way wardnesse Concerning which text thus haue our men truely and godlily answered long agoe and often first that the Apostle speaketh there of a particular and certaine matter papists applying these wordes generally to whatsoeuer they doe contrary to their erroneous conscience or pretensed knowledge 2. that the particular matter which the Apostle speaketh of is a thing indiffereÌ„t wheras Papists apply the wordes to things simply good and simply euill saying the former may be left vndone if my erring conscience be against it the later done without sinne if my pretensed knowledge lead me to it 3. That the things which the Apostle speaketh of were such as God himselfe was author of in his lawe as distinction of meate and daies which whilst the Iewes wonne to the Gospel did in those daies retaine though they did it ignorantly not knowing the libertie of the Gospell yet till they might be fully perswaded therein by faith which is grounded on doctrine and on the word they were bound to keepe by the commandement of God himselfe 4. That the manner and end of the Apostles bearing is not to nourish errour or to harden such an one in his opinion and doing but by patience to drawe him to trueth in the ende which manner of tolerance the Apostle calleth edification vers 19. and chap. 15.2 Lastly the Apostle speaketh not of Gentiles infidels nor of stubburn Christians but of a brother a faithfull man and one that hath receiued and embraced the profession of the Gospell but is weake through ignorance of some one point pertaining to Christian liberty in the outward vse of Gods creatures wherein he is not throughly perswaded of instructed of bearing with such an one by those whome God hath called to more plentifull knowledge of his heauenly trueth speaketh he All which things duly considered the true sence of the place appeareth thus namely that the faithfull for his particular regard beeing in doubt or lacking the full perswasion of faith which is giuen by measure and hath his time of groweth and increasing cannot without danger and therefore ought not attempt to do that wherein he is not already by the word of God and faith fully and throughly resolued But mark this double caution first that his absteining from the outward action be without danger of offence and scandall secondly that he stand not stiffâ—ly in his owne opinion flattering himselfe therein but ready vpon further instruction and knowledge to grow forward and to profit yea desirous also of such instruction and whatsoeuer other meanes may help to the better informing of his conscieÌ„ce in that behalfe whereby he may both clearely see the thing doubted of to the good holy and lawfull do the same with all sincerity faithfullnes M. But what if without daÌ„ger of offending God and prince I caÌ„not abstaine from the outward action and yet doubt in my selfe S. Your obedience beeing due it lesse offendeth to commit one fault then two that is to doe what you ought though doubtingly then both do doubt and disobey The doubting is a fault the obedience is none Amend what is euill by better instruction withdraw not what is good and due by all right He is condemned saith the Apostle if he eate not because he eteth but because he eateth not of faith In a lawefull action therefore it is not the deed which offendeth but the doubting that is not the matter but the manner performe obedience with a single heart and God in meane shall blesse it with true resolution M. Doth not then an erroneous conscience binde S. It may be borne withall for a time in charitable regard of weakenesse and in hope of better instruction but God forbidde that it should still binde and bee a couer or excuse for wilfull waywarde and malitious disobedience 2. Thes 2. 1. Tim. 4. For then to bee giuen ouer to a strong delusion to beleeue lies is not such a iudgement as the Apostle maketh it neither yet to haue the conscience feared with an hotte iron 2. Tim. 1.19 It is not right which the Apostle teacheth that vpon the putting away of a good conscience their followeth any shipwracke of faith or that the wicked haue their very mindes and consciences defiled 1. Tit. 1. For if the colour of such a conscience binde excuse and saue harmeles how is it defiled can that which is defiled it selfe make cleane any action But ô miserable doctrine that false reason should be made a guide to will and we bound to followe so blinde a guide The very heathen philosophers were not so madde For they talke of recta ratio and of mens sana in corpore sano of right and true reason and of a sound minde in a sounde body c. A Iewe sinneth mortally say these Catholike teachers if coÌ„â—ratrary to his pretensed knowledge or against his erroneous conscience he acknowledge in Trinitie Iesus Christ the second person yea the Iewes had sinned mortally if they had not crucified Christ according to their erring consciences Againe to beleeue in Christ if false reason propound it as euill is euill yea to worship the deuill beeing deceiued by the same reason is not onely not a sinne but a good worke O Catholike doctrine Then for the second table if a man leauing his wife and going into another countrie marry another and after repenting himselfe would leaue her affirming his former wife to be aliue and the Church suffer him not beeing ignorant of the trueth of that his assertion although this latter marriage bee nought and the man consequently an adulterer Deare mother marke this stuffe the
A CONFERENCE BETVVIXT A MOTHER A DEVOVT RECVSANT AND HER Sonne a zealous protestant seeking by humble and dutifull satisfaction to winne her vnto the trueth and publike worship of god established nowe in England Gathered by him whose hearts desire is that all may come to the knowledge of God and be saued 2. Corinth 11.1 Would to God you coulde a little tollerate my foolishnesse yea indeede beare with me For I am zealous ouer you with a godly zeale PRINTED BY IOHN LEGAT Printer to the Vniversitie of Cambrige 1600. TO THE REVErend father in God my VERY GOOD LORD GERVASE by the prouidence of God Lord Bishop of Worcester WHat maketh me willing to publish this pamplet your L. will easily iudge by the argument what helpes I haue had therein so many as haue hard your Lorships publike exhortations or priuate conferences in matter of religion will as easily coniecture it being indeede nothing els but a gleaning of your L. great haruest and a cluster of your owne vintage And therefore what cause I haue to sue for your honourable approbation I neede not proclaime vnto the world saue that I must needes confesse my selfe by many many bonds more then I may well make knowne to be tyed in all duty vnto your L. to whome next vnder almightie God and her sacred Maiestie I owe whatsoeuer I haue besides this corruptible man I may not particularize your honourable and innumerable fauours least I exceede the limits of a preface and breake the bonds of sobrietie and so incurre the iust displeasure of your Lordship Only I craue pardon herein to acknowledge that as once in the Vniuersity by your Lordships happie hand I was brought into the sheepfolde of the great sheapheard so in your honours seruice I haue beene led continually by the same gratious hand in and out to the greene pastures and pleasant streames of euer liuing water and learned that which may stead me all my life long and in the worlde to come for euer it I be not wanting vnto my selfe Wherefore may it please your Lordship to vouchsafe me your wonted honourable fauour to couer whatsoeuer my defects in this attempt and to accept this testimonie of my true and due affection to your L. I shall be still more and more bounde and I hope alwaies mindfull to bowe the knees of my heart vnto the highest whose recompence is a sufficient reward for the continuaÌ„ce of his gratious eye vpon you and all your honourable affaires for euer Your L. humble chaplaine Francis Sauage To the Reader LActantius for eloquence in the publishing of gods holy truth writeth eloqueÌ„tly Licèt veritas posset sine eloquentiâ defendi vt est à multis saepè defensa tamen claritate ac nitore sermonis illustranda quodaÌ„modo disserenda est vt potentius in animos influat Wherein he seemeth somewhat to censure all those that want this skill but by a little transposition we may keepe his meaning and turne the sentence thus Although its meete with perspicuitie and purity of speech to illustrate and set forth the trueth and so as it were 〈◊〉 104 with skilfull hand to sowe it that it may more forcibly flowe into the mindes of men yet may it be maintained well without eloquence and ornament of wordes which is a sufficient motiue to all honest mindes which wish well to the prosperitie of Sion to put to their helping hands though weake and feeble in the spirituall building of Gods house Yet a greater incouragemeÌ„t is that which S. Hierom saith Fides pura non quaerit strophas argumenta verborum The purity of faith hunteth not after coulourable sleightes and wilâ—e wordy arguments But Tertullians speech in some sort enioyneth this service and exacteth it as a dutie Veritas amat Spiritus sancti figuram â—â—ra Valent Orientem amat nihil erubescit nisi solummodò abscondi The trueth loues the light the morning starre breaking of the day shee is abashed at nothing saue only the couer and night of darkenes and obscurity And sure howe homely soeuer shee seeme in the eies of some and in regard of the habite wherewith shee is some times attired yet beeing alwaies in her selfe like the kings daughter all glorious within and in the estimate of the wise full of maiestie and grace and iustified euer of all her children shee commeth forth like the Sunne rising as a bridegrome out of his chamber and as a giant readie to runne his course Wherefore gentle Reader accept in good part I pray thee this my seruice and goodwill woone by these inducements and if this man of might meete thee in any corner of this simple cotage looke not vpon the outward earthen walls but cast thine eie within vpon the prince himselfe yeelding thine homage of reuerence and obedience euer due Fran. Sauage August de Trin. lib. 1. cap. 2. 3. Nec pigebit me sicubi haesito quaerere nec pudebit sicubi erro discere Proinde quisquis haec legit vbi paritèr certus est pergat mecum vbi paritèt haesitat quaerat mecum vbi errorem suum cogno scit redeat adme vbi meum reuocet me Ita ingreaiamur simul charitatis viam Psal 104. teÌ„â—entes adeum de quo dictum est Quaerite facieÌ„ eius semper A DIALOGVE BETVVIXT A Mother and her sonne being a student in the vniversity come ouer into the country to see his friends profitable to be be read of all that desire to be satisfied touching matter of religion and comming to Church M. COme Sonne you shall goe with me to your fathers farme this faire day is very fit to walke abroad and moderate walking is comended of all as good phisicke S. I will gladly attend you Mother both in regard of your pleasure and this fit opportunity for the exercise of our bodies which is the best phisicke that many a poore scholler hath in the vniuersity but I hope the farme you goe vnto is not far off because you speake of modâ—rate walking M What knowe you not your fathers houses this is the good that cometh of your long absence your fathers care to send you so farre away which hath much grieued me and in which respect I haue often requesâ—â—â— him â—o send for you home S Good Mother I see and feele to my 〈…〉 I haue euer done your tendâ—◠〈◊〉 and bowels of louing kindenâ—â—â—â—â—wards me and I must needes acknowledge my fathers great loue euen in this which you seeme to mislike that he sent me to the vniuersity for sure he did it in his speciall care ouer me and in wisdome for my safety M. Safety I pray you from what would your mothers eye haue done you any harme S. I would be very loath mother to offend you and therefore if I haue spoken any thing vnadvisedly I humbly craue pardon M. Nay sonne we haue not beene so long a sunder to fall out at first and therefore I will not be offended
indeed and therfore to be receiued helde and defended though for a thousand yeares the Lord hath made it a straunger in this or that place to punish thereby the sinnes of a kingdome or countrie Vetus consuetudo non praeiudicat veritate Olde custome doth not preiudice the truth saith good S. Austen Nec dici debet â—ug De Ciuit. l. 10. c. 32. quare modò quare sero quoniam mittentis consilium non est humauo ingenio penitrabile Neither may we say why commeth it now Good Mother marke it why commeth it so late for the councell of God that sent it is vnsearchable to the wisdome of man Thus speake the Papists in these daies where was your religion before Luther where hath it beene this many hundred yeares had God no Church till now c. But S. Austen telleth theÌ„ they speake not well they ought not to say so for Gods councell is known to himselfe and we cannot reach vnto it Religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanaa sed numine nec quo die sedquid colere caeperis iutueri convenit quodenim verum est serum non est The autority of religion must be weighed by god not by time we must coÌ„sider not vpon what day but vvhat thing we began to worship the thing that is true is neuer to late The Iesuits tell vs wonders of their conuerting the Indians and other people to the Romish faith and woulde they like that those nations should say where hath this religion beene all this while woulde they not say as Arnobius saith that which is true should euer be vvelcome Arnob. coâ—â— Genâ—â— howe long soeuer the time of darkenesse hath beene Why doe they then teach any to stand vpon such questions against the Gospel nowe preached Our Sauiour saith If I speake the trueth vvhy doe you not beleeue me and that is the good issue indeede to consider the matter whether it bee true or no which is euer found by the weight of the sanctuary the word of God Certenly we teach no false religion but offer the trueth for issue praying that if it be found true by the touchstone mentioned it may be entertained and so much the more hartely by how much shee hath beene long from home For so wee deale with our friendes and doe not vtterly denie them if they haue beene long away Certenly we haue planted no newe religion but renewed the olde I meane in respect of certen pointes corrupted by your men that was vndoubtedly founded and vsed by the Apostles of Christ and other holy fathers in the primitiue Church of this long late time by meane of the multitude of Romish traditions and vanities hath beene drowned with traditions fantasies though painted with colour of antiquity and continuance yet are new vaine and naught M. I cannot deny sonne but it is true that you say there may be vetustas erroris an antiquity of error for you know I haue some latin not yet forgotten and â—here may be a late beginning of truth in some particular place but it followeth not that either the error is truth because it hath bin continued long or the trueth error because in that place it was receiued but lately I like not this kind of reasoning whosoeuer vseth it for it is not sound neither stateth the conscience S. Good mother I know well you vnderstand the latin tongue and therefore haue I repeated many testimonies in latin to giue you your due praise this ability being not ordinary in women And what you say I thanke God hartely for praying you to consider that there be men on your side which so reason and so say Popery hath bin in england so long therefore it is truth and the gospel was reuiued but of late therfore it is error heresy apostasie and what not Surely mother you haue touched the quick such arguing is loose and staieth not the coÌ„â—cience it followeth not but is very childish Men may be called at the eleuenth houre yet as truly called as they who were brought into the vineyard at the very first and as fully shall be regarded if they come then The Lord may doe with his own as pleaseth him M. Yea but what say you sonne to our baptisme for that is a matter of moment we were all baptised into the Romish faith and vowed at the font to continue in the same Howe then shall we start from it without breaking our vow and offending both god and man In what faitâ— baptized S. Deare mother here first I wish a lattise window in my breast that the ioy of my heart for these your questions so fit and pertinent I hope profitable might appeare vnto you for they lead vs as it were by the hand to the consideration of those things which may fully satisfie any Christian heart And who can tell what the Lord of mercy wil doe who willeth not he death of a sinner but would haue al meÌ„ saued come to the knowledge of the trueth The Lord Iesus Christ who is the true sheapheard samp bishop of our soules giue a blessing to our conference Then to your doubt so well and to so good purpose moued I answere thus God forbid that either all or any of vs had beene baptized into the Romish faith You are deceiued and those cursed charmers that whisper such things to Gods people and cast such stumbling blockes before their eyes to turne theÌ„ out of the right way shall answer the Lord for so doing You are taught and told that all those who were baptised in those times when popery was receiued by the realme of England were baptized into the Romish faith which is not so wherein appeared the great mercy and goodnesse of God in preseruing the Sacrament of entrance and admission into Gods Church pure and sound concerning the substance of it euen in the greatest darkenesse and authority of popery This therefore I pray you vnderstand that we were all baptized in the time of popery into the same faith which nowe wee hold and baptize children in that is into the faith of the 12. articles for thus said the priest then in latin Credis in deum patrem c. as the minister doth now in English Doest thou beleeve in God the father almighty c. And the godfathers and godmothers answered then in the name of the child Credo as we doe nowe answere All this I stedfastly beleeve Then said the priest in latin againe as the minister doâ—h nowe in english wilâ— thou be baptized in this faith they answered then for the childe volo we nowe that is my desire Then tooke the pâ—â—â—st water and saide in laâ—in Ego baptizo te in nomine â—atris c. we say the same in engâ—â—â— I baptize thee in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost And this beeing the substance of baptisme see howe the Lord preserued it euen then pure and holy and all one was baptisme then
them and marke them which argued a touch in their hearts more then the worlde saw or they had strength and boldnesse publikely to make shewe of One mother I coulde name to you that albeit shee did as the time then was yet hadde shee an olde Psalter in english and before her children beeing younge would often reade on it giuing them admonition in diuers points according to her motherly care and by name when shee came to those wordes They haue eies and see not feete haue they and goe not hands and handle not noses and smell not neither is there any breath in their mouthes cursed are all they that make them and so are all they that put their trust in them Marke children would shee say what those Images you see in the Churches bee they cannot see goe handle or smell they haue no life and therefore we may not worship or trust in them they are cursed that make them as you heare and no doubt but there will come a time when they will bee taken away By which we plainely see there was more in many of our good forefathers for doe you thinke god was the god onely of this good woman more I say then the course of time yeelded theÌ„ and therefore great testimonies that god saued them euen in the furnace and in the Lyons denne that is in the darke time and time of daunger Therefore farre be it from vs to iudge of them otherwise then well They liue with the Lord God I most comfortably hope M. This reuereÌ„t coÌ„ceit of your elders sonne I trust is a signe of Gods grace in you and your hope is grounded vpon good presumptions But why then may not wee nowe follow their course as I said hope of like mercy also with them why we may not imitate â—â—r forefathers S. Deare mother let not me answere you but heare and weigh with your selfe what S. Cyprian that learned and holy father answereth whose words are these I know you vnderstand them Ignosci potuit simpliciter erranti post inspirationem verò revelationem factam qui in eo quo errauerat perseuerat sine veniâ ignorantiae peccat praesumptione enim at que obstinatione superatur M. Me thinks I vnderstand this sentence to be thus much in english To one that of simplicity erreth pardon may be giuen but who so after knowledge reuealed and gratiously offered continueth in his errour that man or that woman sinneth without hope of pardon for their ignorance for he or shee is wholly carried away vvith presumption and obstinacie Which senteÌ„ce if it be that godly fathers surely it ought to be well weighed of al that mean not to be so ouercome And for my part I doe thinke and will thinke of it S. Surely mother they are his very wordes and for the sence well translated by you And blessed be God for your good taking of these graue speeches of great lights and worthy teachers in their times The wordes are in his 62. epistle as I shall shewe you when I come to the booke And since my wordes finde comfortable fauour with you let me I pray further shew you how Satan hath alwaies vsed to deceiue men by these meanes and howe God hath giuen councell to the contrary Cresconius the heretique said to S. Augustin Our fathers receiued this of their fathers before theÌ„ And S. Augustin answered him sed errantes ab errantibus but them men deceiued receiued it of men that were deceiued before them Even as the Iewes at this day receued of their fathers and their fathers likewise receiued it before them of their fathers and so from father to father since the suffering of Christ which is now almost 1567 yeares that Christ did not rise againe but that his disciples came whilest the watchmen slept stole his body away Now is this wicked falshood true because by tradition from father to sonne it hath beene continued and taught amongst the Ievves for so many yeres god forbid We beleeue the contrary as an article of our faith and therefore you see this argument from our forefathers is dangerous and may carrie vs into great errors if vve take not heede This notable ansvvere of S. Augustin and this worthy example woulde neuer be forgotten Another great heretique called Eutiches that denied the humanity of our Sauiour beeing conuented for it in the Councell of Chalcedon fled likewise to this defence and cried â—ct 1. Sic à progenitoribus meis accipiens credidi in hac fide genitus sum consecratus deo inea opto mori this faith I haue receiued from my auncestoures and forefathers in this faith I was borne and baptized and in this faith I desire to die And yet that faith an horrible heresie as you haue heard denying that Iesus Christ was man Auxentius the Arrian heretique made this his refuge and told theÌ„ that sought his reformation Quemadmodem ab infantiâ doctus sum ita crediat credo Even as from mine infancy I haue heene taught so I haue beleeued and doe beleeue S. Hilary reporteth thus of him By which examples wee plainely see what an olde ginne of Satan this is to intangle vs with the doings of our forefathers and to make vs beleeue that the following of them in all things is a praise for vs and that we ought not in any thing to slippe away from them But it is not soe God hath otherwise taught vs auncient fathers haue othewise preached and written and the matter of our eternall saluation is weighty We must beware vnto the former examples ad that of the Iewes so notable in the prophet where beeing rebuked of the prophet Ieremy for their Idolatry God so commanding him they flatly answered as these heretiques before named and as they of the Romish Church still daily answere The worde which thou hast spoken to vs in the name of the Lord we will not heare it of thee but as our forefathers haue done our kings and our princes in the city ot Iudah so will we doe euen whatsoeuer goeth out of our owne mouth as to burne incense to the Queene of heauen and to powre out drinke offrings vnto her for then had we plentie of victualls and were well and felt no euill but since we left of to burne incense to the Queene of heauen and to powre out drinke offerings vnto her we haue scarcenesse of all things and haue bene consumed by the sword and famine c. I doubt not mother but you marke this place well for indeede it is a verie notable and pregnant example to this ende we nowe speak of and the words are as it we heard all the Romish Catholicks speake together so iumpe they with them And so like is Satan to himselfe in his trickes and deuises to deceiue Gods people But nowe what saith God Doeth be like of this answere and of this heady and vnadvised following of their auncestoures No No neither euer will he like of it
time of vengeance The Lord vvill giue thee a penny saith S. Austen though thou come but at the eleuenth hovvre but yet he hath not promised thee to live to the second hovvre noting the vncertainty of our life not to be presumed vpon one moment of an howre tu ergò quò quando vocaris veni thou therefore saith he come vvhither thou art called and vvhen thou art called come come without any longer stay or any moe ifs and ands or consultations with flesh and blood It is thy God that calleth who allowed not him to goe bury his father or to salute his friendes that sought that delay but required forthwith Follow thou me Zacheus when the Lord said vnto him come dovvne for I will dine with thee came dovvne hastely and receiued him ioyfully which God in mercy make vs euer to doe Whose image and superscription is vpon you euen vpon your bodie and vpon your soule is it not Gods ô giue then vnto God that which is Gods your owne selfe to your own sweete and good God and see the comfort of it Lord strengthen Lord help for thy sonnes sake M. Amen sonne and god giue satisfaction in our consciences euer to choose what is right in his eyes For conscience is truely called the bird in my breast that would not be troubled S. True satisfaction of conscience mother is a good thing and euer to be laboured for But I beseech you marke howe greatly this word is abused when fancy and will are called conscience Now a daies let it be asked of any recusant as we call them why he or shee goeth not to Church the common answere is forsooth my conscience will not let me or It is my conscience c as though euery toy that I take in my head were by and by conscience Aske them further why their conscience will not let them either they cannot or will not answere but thinke they haue said enough when they haue named once the word Conscience Alas we knowe that true conscience hath a ground and reason out of Gods word as when I say my conscience will not suffer me to kill a man and you aske me why I readily answere because it is written Thou shalt not kill and so in all other matters forbidden disalowed by almightie God which if they could doe either in this matter of comming to Church or in any other point of obedience commanded by her Maiestie and the lawe of this land then might they talke of conscience and make scruple with authoritie because we must obey God rather then man But this beeing not so forasmuch as nothing is inioyned them that is contrarie to the worde therefore this conscience of theirs is but fancy wilfull obstinacy and disobedience which the Lord will punish for we are plainely taught that euerie soule ought to be subiect to the higher powers there is no power but of God m. 13 1â— and the powers that be are ordained of God and they that resist shall receiue to themselues damnation all beeing bound to be subiect not for feare of wrath onely but also for conscience sake For humane lawes enacted of things that be good in themselues that is commaunded of God properly are not humane but diuine lawes and therefore binde conscience not because they were enacted by man but because they were first made by God men beeing no more but instruments and ministers in his name to reviue renewe and put in execution such precepts and lawes as prescribe the worship of God standing in the practise of true religion and vertue and the man or woman that breaks such lawes sinneth two waies first because he breakes that which in nature and conscience is the lawe of God secondly because in disobeying his lawfull magistrate he disobeyeth the generall commandement of God touching magistrats M. You wil haue coÌ„science then euer grouÌ„ded vpon Gods word S. Yf it be a right conscience I say it must needes be so For it is called Conscientia quasi cum scientiâ or as some thinke quasicordis scientia as if you should say with science and knowledge or the knowledge of the heart Now true knowledge what pleaseth or displeaseth God must needes be out of his word because therein onely his will is manifested vnto vs Againe the actions of the conscience saith the Apostle are in accusing and excusing which needes must haue relation to the word For how can conscience iustly accuse me but because the thing I doe is condemned of God or howe can it excuse me but because my deedes by gods worde which is his will are iustifiable Conscience therefore without direction of gods word cannot giue true iudgement either to iustification or condemnation Whatsoeuer therefore is done with an erroneous conscience we see plainely is sinne for euill remaineth euill though conscience say the contrary a thousand times and so doth good remaine good As if a man come into an house in the darke where many thinges are out of order which yet for the darkenesse he seeth not to be so are they not therfore out of order because he seeth them not The like may be saide on the other side where all things are passing well and yet he seeth it not Conscience therefore is a guid to me and the word of God a guide to my conscience which if it were marked and grounded in our hearts o how would we tremble to be so ignorant of Gods word as often we are and to doe as we doe and say as we say This makes vs to runne headlong with good intents whereas no good intention is sufficient to make any worke good vnlesse withal conscience approoue my action which it can neuer rightly doe but by giuing iudgement that God approoueth it This makes vs bolde to worship God with mans inuentions â—ay 29. â—3 â—ark 7.7 not considering that such deuises are meere sinnes because conscience cannot say of them according to her rule that they please God Finally as one saith with a godly desire to awake vs. This maketh mans life flowe euen with a sea of offences against God men commonly thinking that if they keepe themselues from periury blasphemy murder theft whordome all is well with them But the trueth is so long as they liue in ignorance they want true and right direction out of Gods word and therefore their best actions are sinnes euen their eating and drinking their sleeping and waking their buying and selling their speech and sileÌ„ce yea their praying seruing of God For they doe these actions either of custome or example or necessity as beasts doe and not of faith because they knowe not gods will touching things to be done or left vndone Wherefore the due coÌ„sideration hereof should make euery man most carefull to seeke for knowlede of Gods word and daily to increase in it that he may in all his affaires haue gods lawes to be the men of his councell that he may giue heede to them as to a lantarne
by integritie of lawe In a worde Aliter non persequimur vos nisi quemadmodum veritas persequitur falsit atem We persecute you no otherwise but as trueth persecuteth falshood namely to saluation not to destruction M. Surely your answeres I must confesse are farre otherwise then either I looked for at your handes or thought coulde haue beene giuen in your cause Wherefore I say againe we on our side are greatly wronged when we are forbidden to read your bookes or to conferre with you But yet if some learned man were here to dispute with you happely he would contrarie this which to me seemeth plaine S. Surely mother euen this also which you name is a good point be touched For indeede it is an vsuall shift of men and women thus giuen to say I cannot answere you but if such and such were here they would and would God we might haue some disputation then should wee see which part were better Yea such bragges are made by some learned of your side to blinde the eyes of the people as if either there neuer had bin triall of their streÌ„gth this waie or as if they alwaies had had the vpper hand in disputation when God knoweth and the world can witnesse herein their weaknes and great foiles to the glorie of God and victory of his truth in the hearts of many thousandes both men and vvomen For confirmation whereof let me remember you of the disputation at Berne in Heluetia in king Henry the 8 his daies which is thus published in Chronicle to the worldes knowledge There was in ☞ the yeare of our Lord 1527. in the moneth of december order taken by the senate and people of Berne whose power amongst all the Switzers chiefly excelleth in regard of the varience of religion that then was and still more more increaseth that there should be a publike disputation in that cittie and to that ende they sent forth writings of the same and called thither all the Bishops bordering neere about them as the bishop of Constance Basil Sedune Lausanna warning them to come both themselues and to bring with them their devines or els to loose all such professions as they had lying within the boundes of their precinct They also appointed learned men amoÌ„gst them preachers of the Gospell to be readie to dispute against all commers in defence of their doctrine prescribing the disputation to be decided onely by the authority of the olde and newe testament They graunted safe conduct to all that would come They appointed likewise that all things should be done modestly without iniurie and brawling words and that euery one should haue leaue to speake his minde freely and with such deliberation that euerie mans saying might be receiued by the notarie and penned And to the end men might come thither better prepared they caused their ministers to publish such questions as they should dispute on before hand in writing that euery man might studie to say what he coulde against them and they were tenne in number 1. The true Church riseth out of Gods worde continueth in the same and heareth the voice of none other 2. The true Church maketh no lawes without the word 3. Traditions binde not but as firre as they are agreeable to the written word 4. Christ onely hath satisfied for the sinnes of the vvorld and therefore if any make any other waie the same denieth Christ 5. The body and blood of Christ cannot be receiued really and corporally by the testimony of scripture 6. There is no place of purging after this ☞ life and therfore all dirges prayers ceremonies lampes tapers c. bestowed for the dead profitte nothing 7. Christ onely is to be prayed vnto as the mediator of mankind to God the father 8. The masse is wicked and derogatory to Christs sacrifice offered for vs. 9. Images ought not to be set vp in Churches and praied vnto 10. Marriage is allowed by God vnto all degrees These things I say thus agreed vpon before hand were sent abroad to al places and the day appointed the 7 of Ianuarie for the disputation to beginne At which day nowe see the courage of Catholicks not one of the bishops before named came neuerthelesse the citty of Basil Zuricke Schasuse Abbacelle Sangallium Mallusia with the neighbours of Rhetia also they of Strawsburge Vlmes Ausburge Lindaue Constance and Isue sent thither their Embassadours The doctors of Berne began the disputation whereat were present Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucerus Capito and Blaurecus with others One the other side of them that were opponents the chiefe was Conzadus and Tregerus a frier Augustine who no way able to prooue his cause out of the olde and newe testament as was appointed and decreed at first desired that he might alledge Doctours which the moderators refusing to graunt because it was contrarie to the order appointed he to his great shame and to the preiudice of all his side departed out of the place and would dispute no more The disputation endured 19. daies and in the ende by the greater part of that assembly the protestantes hadde the victorie and the Papists the foile And it was agreed vpon that the themes before mentioned were all true and agreeable to Gods holy worde that they shoulde be ratified and proclaimed according to promise and that masses altars images c. should in all places be abolished So they were at Constance Berne and Geneva they causing the day and yeare of this reformation from poperie to Christianity to be ingrauen in a pillar with golden letters for a perpetuall memorie to all posteritie This was anno 1528. After the rumour of this disputation Reformation followed at Strawsburge Basil and other places to Gods great glorie the comfort of his people the true witnessing to the world what strength Romish Catholicks haue in disputation when they are desired to keepe to the scriptures which onely is the ground of trueth and conscience I may not repeat others at large but blessed be God the like triall of them was made and the like foile giuen them at Wittenberge and Ravensburge at Ausburge at Spire at Wormes at Pois and here in England at London at Cambridge at Oxford and in private houses and consistories of Bishops often That notable seruice of Beza at Pois gone through the worlde when the Cardinall of Lotharinge wished that either Beza had beene dumme or they his auditours and aduersaries deaâ—e will witnesse for euer what pith popish falshood hath had against Christian trueth held and taught by protestants wheÌ„ they came to disputation Reade our owne Chronicles of the cowardly refusall of the popish Bishops to dispute at the happy entrance of her Maiesty to the Crowne howe also they behaued theÌ„selues in Queene Maries time when one of them said vve had the word but they had the sword c. Indeede indeede the sword and the fire are their best arguments and in blood they build whatsoeuer they build Neuer neuer therefore let them