these Objections First as to that that you do say that you are bound to Conceal your Councels and the Kings secrets that is very true as to your Councels that is your Debates you are bound to conceal them As to the Kings secrets so long as he will have them kept secret you are bound to keep them so too but it doth not deprive the King of the benefit of having it publick if he have a desire for it you don't break your Oath if the King will make it publick you don't make it publick 't is the King does it Then as to that that you do say that you apprehend the common usage of the Kingdom to be a Law that is true Mr. Papillon in some sence a constant and uninterrupted usage goes for a Law among us but I thought I had told you before that both of ancient and later times there have been Examinations of the Witnesses in Court in Cases of this nature and we are not without presidents of it every Year every Term continually from time to time Evidence is heard in Court by the Grand-Jury it is as usual a thing with us as any thing if it be desired nothing more frequent or more common I never heard it deny'd or stood upon by any Grand-Jury in my life till of late here you may be instructed with a thousand presidents for I am sure it is a common and ordinary case upon such occasions if desired to hear the Evidence in Court Look ye Gentlemen as to that care that you have of the Kings affairs the King has reason to take it well that you are so careful for them and that you are so mindful of his concerns he hath a great deal of reason to think well of you for it And Gentlemen consider this that His Majesties Council have certainly considered of this Evidence before they brought this to a publick Enquiry or else it would be a hard thing if they should come raw and not know what the Witnesses can say for though you are the Jury to hear the Witnesses yet you must consider that the Kings Council have Examined whether he hath cause to accuse these persons or not and Gentlemen they understand very well that it will be no prejudice to the King to have the Evidence heard openly in Court or else the King would ne're desire it Foreman My Lord the Gentlemen of the Jury desire that it may be Recorded that we insisted upon it as our Right but if the Court o're rule we must submit to it L. C. J. Here are enough persons to take notice of it to make Records of such things is not usual it is not our business here to record every thing that every man will desire to be Recorded We can Record nothing but what is in Order to the Proceedings but notice enough is taken of it you need not fear but that there will be Witnesses enough L. C. J. North. Gentlemen I must say something to fortifie what my Lord Chief Justice has said If any of us had been of a different opinion we would have spoken it the same thing was stood upon and discoursed on the last Sessions and then all the Judges were of this opinion and in what all the Judges agree to you should acquiesce I must tell you from my own experience where the King will he ought to have it kept secret I have not known it done publiâ—kly in the orderly course of business but I have often known wherâ—… hath been desir'd by those which Prosecute for the King that Evidence hath been given openly and I never knew it deny'd If any of my Brothers think otherwise I desire they would speak but I tell you as to my experience this is the case Mr. Sheriff P. I desire the Witnesses may be kept out of the Court and called one by one L. C. J. It is a thing certainly that the King's Council will not be afraid of doing but Sheriffs do not use to move any thing of this nature in Court and therefore 't is not your Duty Mr. Sheriff to meddle with it Sheriff P. It was my Duty last time my Lord and appointed Mr. Att. Gen. You were acquainted 't was not your Duty last time and you appear against the King Then the Indictment was Read London ss THE Jurors for our Soveraign Lord the King upon their Oaths present that Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury late of the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields in the County of Middlesex as a false Traytor against the most Illustrious and most Excellent Prince our Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King his Natural Lord the fear of God in his heart not having nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil the Cordial Love and true due and natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him our said Soveraign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear wholly withdrawing and with all his strength intending the Peace and common Tranquillity in this Kingdom of England to disturb and War and Rebellion against our said Soveraign Lord the King to stir up and move and the Government of our said Soveraign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to subvert and him our said Soveraign Lord the King from the Title Honour and Regal Name of the Imperial Crown of his Kingdom of England to Depose and Deprive and Him our said Soveraign Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England and divers other days and times as well before as afterward in the Parish of St. Mary Le-Bow in the Ward of Cheap London Trayterously compassed imagined and intended the Death and Final Destruction of our said Soveraign Lord the King and the ancient Government of his Kingdom of England to change alter and wholly to Subvert and Him our said Soveraign Lord the King from the Title Honour and Kingly Name of his Imperial Crown of this Kingdom of England to Depose and Deprive and War and Rebellion against our said Soveraign Lord the King to move and levy within this Kingdom of England and his said most wicked Treasons and Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes aforesaid to fulfill and perfect he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor with divers Armed men Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King then being maliciously trayterously and advisedly did provide and prepare to be aiding to him the said Earl of Shaftsbury to fulfill and perfect his Treasons aforesaid And his said wicked Treasons Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes the sooner to fulfill and perfect he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor with one John Booth and other Subjects of our said Lord the
King then and there Trayterously assembled met and consulted and the same wicked Treasons and Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes aforesaid then and there to the said John Booth and other persons to the Jury unknown in the hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly publickly maliciously trayterously and advisedly did say and declare and to perswade and induce the said John Booth to be aiding and assisting in his said Treasons Compasses Imaginations and Purposes he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor maliciously advisedly and trayterously the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord the King at the Parish and Ward aforesaid within the City of London aforesaid falsly advisedly subtilly maliciously and trayterously said asserted and declared That in a short time the Parliament was to sit at Oxford and that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had inspected the Elections and considered the inclinations and dispositions of the generality of the Members of Parliament Elected and that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury was satisfied that the Parliament would insist upon three Matters to wit The Bill of Exclusion against the Duke of York the Abolishing the Act of Parliament of the 35th of Queen Elizabeth and the passing of a New Bill for Vniting Protestant Dissenters with divers other good and wholesome Bills To which he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury was certain that the Kings Majesty would refuse to give his Royal Assent and therefore he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury did expect that there would be a Division between the Kings Majesty and the Parliament and that many Noble Lords and Worthy Members of the lower House did concur in the same Opinion and they were resolved to insist upon the Passing of those Bills And if the Kings Majesty refused that they meaning him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and the said Noble Lords and Worthy Members had provided strength to compel the Kings Majesty to Grant thereunto And that for his part he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had provided stout men to be Commanded by Captain Wilkinson meaning one Henry Wilkinson one of the Subjects of our said now Soveraign Lord the King of which he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had agreed that the said John Booth should be one And further The Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath do say That the aforesaid Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and Trayterous Imaginations to fulfill perfect and bring to effect afterwards to wit the said Eighteenth day of March in the Thirty-third year of his said now Majesties Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid within the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege People of our said Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly and publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That our said now Lord the King was a Man of no Faith and that there was no trust in him and that our said Lord the King deserved to be deposed as well as Richard the Second late King of England deserved And further The Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath do say That the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations aforesaid to be fulfilled and perfected and brought to effect the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of his said now Majesty's Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid in the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Lord the King then and there present openly and publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would never desist until he had brought this Kingdom of England into a Commonwealth without a King and that the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and all those that him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would assist and he knew many that would assist him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would make England a Commonwealth as Holland was And that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and other Traytors unknown would live as in Holland and that he our said Lord the King and all his Family should be rooted out And further The Jurors aforesaid do say That the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations aforesaid to be fulfilled perfected and brought to effect afterwards the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of his said now Majesty's Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid in the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That our now Soveraign Lord the King was a Man of an unfaithful Heart and not worthy to be trusted and not fit to Rule and Govern being false unjust and cruel to his People and if he would not be governed by his People that they meaning him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and other Traytors to the Jurors unknown our said Soveraign Lord the King would depose against his Allegiance and Duty and against the Peace of our said Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity c. and against the form of the Statute in such case made and provided c. Sir Fr. Withens Gentlemen of the Jury This is an Indictment against the Earl of Shaftsbury I shall not trouble you to open the Indictment because the Evidence will be somewhat long I shall only tell you which way we shall go L. C. J. North. I do not know whether you desire the Witnesses should be Examin'd apart do you desire that Gentlemen L. C. J. If you do desire it Gentlemen they shall for Mr. Sheriff hath nothing to do with it but if you do desire it you shall have the Witnesses call'd one at a time and all the rest shall be put out of the Court. Jury My Lord It is our desire L. C. J. We did deny it to Mr. Sheriff because we are to keep Men within their Duty Here it is not his Duty to meddle with any thing of this nature Foreman My Lord We desire we may have a List of their Names and that they may be put apart that they may not hear what one another say Sir Fr. Withens My Lord There is one part I would open L. C. J. There is no need for it at all You shall have their Names told you as they are call'd Mr. Harrison My Lord We pray we may have a List of their Names L. C. J. If you desire it you may have it but it will be no advantage for you
Lord Shaftsbury's own mouth Sir Fr. Withins Had you any other discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury Booth I say I made three or four Visits between Christmass and March and we had discourse every time particularly about the Kings person and if the King did refuse these motions that then these men were to be taken from him and he repell'd with a greater force and be brought to it by force Sir Fr. Withins Did you ever make any solicitation to any to make this Discovery Booth Thus far I did and I will tell you the whole matter in that point there was one Walter Banes an acquaintance of mine and I found that he had at Wilkinson's request engaged himself in some business that one Brownrig an Attorney in Yorkshire had writ to him about concerning some men that were to Swear against my Lord Shaftsbury I asked Mr. Banes what men these were he said he thought they were Irish-men I said I don't know what Conversation in that nature my Lord Shaftsbury might have with Irish-men for I know none of them but I am satisfied that he had Conversation tending to these ends that you speak of with some English-men and that I know This Mr. Banes did take particular notice of and he was very frequently upon me to tell him what the matter was and I gave him some intimation of it Truly 't was very much upon my spirit and I could not tell whether I was able to carry it through or not or had better to let it alone as it was in silence but discoursing still more with him and at the result of that discourse we had by degrees I did give him some intimation of it And after that upon second thoughts I took a resolution to discover it and when I did discover it I do here in the presence of God declare that no mortal did know any thing of what I had to say in reference to the King nor did I make any more applications in the world but took Pen Ink and Paper and writ it down and sealed it under a Cover and sent it to the Council Sir Fr. Withins Gentlemen of the Jury would you ask him any Questions Mr. Papillon The Jury told your Lordship before that after all had been examin'd they would consider what Questions L. C. J. Where would you have these Witnesses that have been examined to stand Mr. Papillon We leave it to the Sheriffs to appoint a place for them Lord Chief Justice To keep them apart it 's utterly impossible for we must have as many Rooms then as there are Witnesses Jury Let one man keep with them L. C. J. Empty that place where they were the last time and let them stand there Edward Turberville Sir Francis Withins Mr. Turberville have you had any discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury Turberville Yes several times In February last I am not positive in the time but about the beginning of the Month I waited upon my Lord Shaftsbury about some moneys I waited upon him to have his Advice how I might come by 't and to gain my Lord Shaftsbury's Letter in my behalf to the President of the Council to stand my friend and he said there was little good to be had from the King as long as his Guards were about him for were it not for his Guards we would quickly go down to Whitehal and obtain what terms we thought fit Said I my Lord I suppose his Guards can't defend him from the whole Kingdom His Lordship said That the Rabble were all of that side especially the People about Wapping and Aldersgate-street and the Rich men of the City would Vote for Elections but they could not expect they should stand by them in case there should be any Disturbance for they valued their Riches more than their Cause And at Oxford I heard my Lord say again He wonder'd the people of England should stickle so much about Religion and that if he were to choose a Religion he would have one that should comply with what was apt to carry on their Cause Mr. Sanders Had you any other discourse with him at any other time Master Turberville I told you all that is material that I can say to it John Smith Mr. Smith My Lord I only beg a word or two from your Lordship of some reflections cast upon me L. C. J. Go to your Evidence Mr. Smith My Lord this is something to my Evidence L. C. J. You may take another time for that Mr. Smith My Lord it hath been reported about in Coffee-houses and Taverns that I should Swear there was a general Design against his Majesty and that I Swore it before the King and Secretary of State and that I also Swore it at the Tryal of Mr. College and Mr. Rowse I take it upon my Oath I never Swore any such thing neither can I Swear there was a General Design by the City or the Parliament against the King Lord Chief Justice Speak what discourse you have had with my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Smith My Lord I suppose it is past all doubt that I have been very often with my Lord Shaftsbury and I have often in his discourse observed that he spake very irreverently and slightly of the King sometimes saying he was a Weak man and sometimes saying he was an Inconstant man a Man of no firm or settled Resolution and a Man that was easily led by the Nose as his Father was before him by a Popish Queen which was the Ruine of his Father This was both in publick and in private I have also observed sometimes in his discourse something that he mention'd of the Earl of Essex and that the King should declare That the Earl of Shaftsbury was not satisfied to be an ill man himself but got over the Earl of Essex too This the Earl of Shaftsbury declar'd publickly in his own house Another story was of the Rebellion of Scotland That the King should say that the Earl of Shaftsbury was the chief Promoter of that Rebellion and when this was told my Lord Shaftsbury that he should send word back again to the King I am glad says he that the King sees not his own Danger nor what he runs himself into and pray tell him that if I were to raise a Rebellion I could raise anotherguess Rebellion than the Rebellion was in Scotland But now as to the particular points I am to charge him with I remember my Lord that my Lord Shaftsbury sent for me one time and that by one Manly sometimes they call him Major Manly sometimes Captain Manly and this man found me at Mr. Bethel's Club in Newgate-street at the Queens Arms and there he told me my Lord Shaftsbury would speak with me that night I immediately left the Club and went to my Lord Shaftsbury's and I was introduc'd into the Dining Room where there were two Gentlemen in discourse with my Lord and as soon as he saw me he askt me how I did I told him I was very
Gentlemen that came out of the Country were well provided with Horse Arms and Men to oppose him and that they might lawfully do it if the King offered any Violence to them whilst they sat and that the Nation stood by them and that they did represent the Nation and that for his part he and all his Friends would do it to the utmost of their Power and as Old as he was he would be one that would oppose it to his power My Lord said I we can expect nothing but Confusion from this Parliament in this Nature for then we shall be involved in another Civil-War nothing else can put an end to our Miseries or make this Nation a settled Nation but a Civil-War Then my Lord said I by this means wee shall make an end of Monarchy or else inslave the Nation to Popery for ever No doubt of one say's he but we are sure of one for the Nation is of our side and the City you know how they are and where ever they Strike I am sure the Nation will and this I 'le stand and dye by This is the substance of what I have to say against my Lord Shaftsbury and upon the Oath I have taken I am sure I have not added a Word One Word more I have to say 'T is reported I have been hired and Suborn'd I do admire why this City of London where there are as worthy men and as great Lovers of the King and Government as any in the World should say any such thing I was never Suborn'd by them nor never took a farthing of their money nor never took a farthing of the King in my life L. C. J. Who supposes it Mr. Smith 'T is in print my Lord 't was in the Book that came out last night it is suppos'd my Lord for it is in print L. C. J. I had reason to expect that there was no such objection Brian Haines Mr. Sanders Give your knowledge of what discourse you have heard concerning my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haines Sir I have heard him Villifie the King very often and he told me about the Narrative that I made about Sir Edmond-Bury Godfrey's death Mr. Ivey and I went to him one day and he spoke to me of it and I desired him not to expose my person to the King's Anger for I was sure he would never grant a pardon to any man that impeached the Earl of Danby Say's he Do not fear if he doth not grant you a pardon he makes himself the Author of the Plot and say's he the Earl of Essex my Lord Maxfield and I wee do all resolve if you put in writing we will go to the King and beg a pardon of his Majesty for you and if he doth not grant it we will raise the whole Kingdom against him for say's he he must not expect to live peaceably in his Throne if he doth not grant it For he makes himself author of the Plot. My Lord said I he hath dissolved so many Parliaments for the sake of the Earl of Danby and prorogued so many Parliaments therefore he will never grant me this Pardon Say's he doe not fear 't is the best pretence we can have in the world and if you will but put in writing and let me read it that I may give my opinion of it the work is done and if he doth not do it we are prepar'd to raise Arms against him I was with him another time after I made this Narrative and he told me the two Mr. Godfrey's were with the King at Windsor and begged a pardon of his Majesty for me but the King would not grant it but if he be an honest man let him lye at my mercy let him come in and declare what he knows Said I I would not have your Lordship expose my cause in these day's This is the best time for it in the world say's he if he doth not do it he can't expect to be long King of England Pray my Lord said I what shall I do in the mean time I will go beyond Sea said I. No sayes he don't leave the Kingdom he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you I desir'd him a second time not to expose me to the King's fury and I prayed him to help me to a little money to go beyond Sea for I was sure I could not be safe in England Sayes he Have a care of your self but sayes he he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you Then I was in close conference with him one day and I gave him so exact an account of all Transactions from King Charles the First 's Reign the commencement or coming to the Crown to this very day that he was mightily satisfied finding by me that I was a Traveller he was mightily pleased and free with me Pray my Lord what Model do you take or intend to do Sayes he Do you not think but there are Families in England that have as great pretences to the Crown as the King Sayes he there is the Duke of Bucks in the right of his Mother she was descended from Edward one of the Edwards and in her Right he claimes the Barony of Ross he hath as great a Right to the Crown of England as ever any Stewart of them all Jury Speak that again Mr. Haines I was in Conference with my Lord Shaftsbury one day and I gave him an exact account of all Transactions and I asked what they did intend to do with the Government if they pull'd the King down Sayes he Do you think there are no Families in England that have as much pretence to the Crown as any of the Stewarts I know none my Lord sayes he there is the Duke of Bucks that is descended of the Family of the Plantagenets he named some of the Edwards and in her right he should have the Barony of Ross and in her Right he has as good a Title to the Crown of England as ever any Stewart had John Macnamarra Sworn Sir Francis Withins Pray give an account to the Jury of what discourse you have had with my Lord Shaftsbury John Macnamarra My Lord I was with my Lord Shaftsbury a little before he went to Oxford before the Parliament sat there and my Lord told me at that time that he would take care together with those that were with him at Oxford for the Witnesses that were concerned in the Popish Plot. Mr. Harrison Speak out pray Sir John Macnamarra My Lord told me he would take care with those that were with him for the Witnesses that were concern'd in the Popish Plot after my Lord went to Oxford I writ him a Letter giving his Lordship to understand That whereas his Lordship was pleased to promise that he would take care of the Witnesses that he would be pleased to take care of me as well as the rest of the Witnesses after my Lord came home from Oxford I went to him to see what was done His Lordship was pleased
Design against the Earl of Shaftsbury Mr. Haynes To none but to Secretary Jenkins Mr. Papilion You understand the question whether you did give no Information of a Design against my L. Shaftsbury to some Justice of the peace Mr. Haynes No no to none but Mr. Secretary Jenkins L. C. J. You do not observe his question did you ever give to any Justice any Information of a Design against my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haynes Yes my Lord I did to Sir George Treby I made Affidavit before him Mr. Papil When was that Mr. Haynes I think it was in March last Mr. Papilion What was that design against my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haynes The design was what Mr. Fitz-Gerrald told me he told me he gave under his hand to the King that the Earl of Shaftsbury did resolve to set the Crown upon his own head or otherwise to turn the Kingdom into a Common-wealth Mr. Papilion Fitz-Gerrald told you this and so you made Affidavit of it Mr. Haynes Yes before Sir George Treby Mr. Papilion What time Mr. Haynes It was before the Parliament met at Oxford Mr. Papilion So you say the words were when were the words spoken that you mentioned Mr. Haynes The words against my Lord Mr. Papilion Ay. Mr. Haynes He spake them to me a little before I made Affidavit I cannot tell positively the time Mr. Papilion That was before his Commitment Mr. Haynes Yes yes my Lord was committed in June last this Affidavit was made in March last before the Recorder of London L. C. J. North When you ask him about the Information of the design against my Lord Shaftsbury he says that was in March last and when you ask him about the evidence he gives now that was the same day he was apprehended by the Messenger Mr. Papilion About June you say it was that you say you gave in the Information against my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haynes The Information I made against my Lord Shaftsbury was in June last the 28th as I take it of June last Mr. Papilion Where was it you had this discourse Mr. Haynes I had several Conferences with my Lord. Mr. Papilion Did he every time say the same Mr. Haynes The last time I spake with him was in Iron-monger-Lane for Mr. Whitaker told me he would speak with me and he would fain have me explain my self what I did mean by the tall man I mentioned in the Narrative and I went to the house and they told me he was there and I sent up a Note and he desired me to come up but I sent word I did not care to come up because I would not be known and so he sent me word to meet him after Dinner and when I came my name is Haynes my Lord said I and I led his Lordship by the hand and went in there I had I believe a whole hours discourse with him and pray my Lord said I among other questions what Religion is the King of truly says he Mr. Haynes he hath no more Religion than an horse for saith he they say Sir he was inclined to Popery when he came first to England says he he had a tincture of Popery and was much inclined that way but since he was degenerated from all the Principles of Christianity for he is just like a perfect Beast Mr. Papilion This you say was in Iron-monger-Lane Mr. Haynes Ay Sir at a Pastery Cooks Shop Mr. Papilion What time was it Mr. Haynes After Dinner in the after-noon Mr. Papilion In June or when Mr. Haynes I cannot tell what time positively it was about the time of the Trial of Fitz-Harris Mr. Papilion Was it the same time he spake about the D. of Buckingham Mr. Haynes No no. Mr. Papilion When was that Mr. Haynes That was when I was with him at his own house and desired him not to expose me Mr. Papilion What time Mr. Haynes I cannot tell Sir for I never thought I should be called to an account for it and I cannot keep an Almanack in my head and I desired them not to expose me to the King's fury for I heard the King was displeased with me no says he you are mistaken this is the best opportunity we can have and if he will not give you a Pardon we will raise the whole Kingdom against him in Arms and then he makes himself the Master and Author of the Plot and consequently he must expect to be ruined unless he grant you a pardon Mr. Papilion Did you ever hear any other words than what you have now testified Mr. Haynes Yes Sir for I discoursed with him in Iron-monger-Lane a great while and told him that our only and best way to have our ends of the King was to raise a Rebellion in Ireland and that I had relations and friends and could get discontented Persons enough and his Lordship would do the work here Mr. Papilion What did you propound a Rebellion in Ireland Mr. Haynes I offered to go beyond Sea and that now was the best time to raise a Rebellion in Ireland and he said that was not the best way for they had other means to take and so the discourse was waved Mr. Papilion And is that all Mr. Haynes That is all I remember now Mr. Papilion Do you know of any other place or time Mr. Haynes I was with him at his house Mr. Papil Were you ever a witness for my Lady Windham or against her Mr. Haynes No Sir but she arrested me because I said I lay with her John Macnamara Mr. Papilion Mr. Macnamara when was it you had this discourse with my L. Shaftsbury what is the time as near as you remember Mr. Mac. In March and April last Sir Mr. Papilion Twice then do you speak of Mr. Mac. Yes Sir Mr. Papilion Which is that that was in April Mr. Mac. That was the last the last discourse was in April Mr. Papilion To what purpose was that Mr. Mac. My Lord said that the King deserved to be deposed as much as King Richard the second did Mr. Papilion In April you say Mr. Mac. In April Mr. Papilion When did you give Information of this Mr. Mac. I cannot exactly tell Sir Mr. Papilion Repeat what you said Mr. Mac. That the King deserved to be deposed as much as King Richard the Second and that he took the Dutchess of Mazarines advice in every particular which was the worst of Woman kind Mr. Papilion What time in April was this Mr. Mac. It was in the beginning of April Mr. Papilion Where Mr. Mac. In his own house Mr. Papilion Who was present Mr. Mac. There was Mr. Ivey by Mr. Papilion When did you make information of this Mr. Mac. I cannot tell it was a good while ago Mr. Papilion Was it before his Commitment Mr. Mac. Yes Sir it was Mr. Papilion To whom did you give information Mr. Mac. To the Secretary of State Sir Mr. Papilion Which of them Mr. Mac. Mr. Secretary Jenkins Sir Mr. Papilion Did