Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two Persons in Christ. The fourth held at Chalcedon condemned the error of Eutyches that there was but one Nature in Christ. I know of no other Points condemned in these four Councils but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words and these Councils were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Councils themselves A. I see by this that both the calling of the Council and the Confirmation of their Doctrine and Church-Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor How comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text All Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now and conferred a Legislative Power on the Councils not only over Christian Men but over all Nations in the World B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilisme to Christianity he did by that very submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his Sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian. A. Did Sylvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the great converted by him tell the Emperor his new Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must be the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been no Christian at all or but a counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian and for this derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative Power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendome farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Frier told him that Christ being King of all the World had given the disposing of all the Kingdoms therein to the Pope and that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5 th and requir'd Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seized upon his person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him you see by this how much they claim when they have power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the 8 th and 11 th Century that is between the time of Pope Leo the third and Pope Innocent the third For in this time Pope Zachary the first deposed Chilperic then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin and Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church Shortly after the Lombards having recover'd their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the third made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope then pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christ's Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special manner in such a manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshuah had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High-Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope for when the Pope invested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cried out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it and the Emperor was contented so to take it And from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the Gift of God and their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter from a Bishop B. 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose Gift they Reign but it cannot from that Custom be inferr'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation of the Pope or by any other Clergy for the Popes themselves receiv'd the Papacy from the Emperor The first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent excused himself by Letters to the Emperor with this That the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperor did but with reprehension of their proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come The Emperor was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperor never acknowledged this Gift of God was the Gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the Gift of the Emperor but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperors for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the People believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than to the Commands of their own Kings whensoever it should come into controversie And to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scriptures As first that it should not be lawful for a Priest to marry B. What influence could that have upon the Power of Kings A. Do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most religious part of his Subjects or
the House nevertheless hearing of it from some of his Fellow-Members may certainly not only take notice of it but also speak to it in the House of Commons but to make the King give up his Friends and Councellors to them to be put to death banishment or imprisonment for their good will to him was such a Tyranny over a King no King ever exercised over any Subject but in Cases of Treason or Murder and seldom then A. Presently hereupon began a kind of War between the Pens of the Parliament and those of the Secretaries and other able men that were with the King For upon the 15 th of December they sent to the King a Paper called A Remonstrance of the State of the Kingdom and with it a Petition both which they caused to be published In the Remonstrance they complained of certain mischievous Designs of a Malignant Party then before the beginning of the Parliament grown ripe and did set forth what means had been used for the preventing of it by the wisdom of the Parliament what rubs they had found therein what course was fit to be taken for restoring and establishing the Ancient Honour Greatness and Safety of the Crown and Nation 1 st And of these Designs the Promoters and Actors were they said Jesuited Papists 2 ly The Bishops and that part of the Clergy that cherish formality as a support of their own Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Usurpation 3 ly Councellors and Courtiers that for private ends they said had engaged themselves to farther the Interests of some Forreign Princes B. It may very well be that some of the Bishops and also some of the Court may have in pursuit of their private Interest done something indiscreetly and perhaps wickedly therefore I pray you tell me in particular what their crimes were for methinks the King should not have conniv'd at any thing against his own Supream Authority A. The Parliament were not very keen against them that were against the King they made no doubt but all they did was by the King's Command but accus'd thereof the Bishops Councellors and Courtiers as being a more mannerly way of accusing the King himself and defaming him to his Subjects For the truth is the Charge they brought against them was so general as not to be called an Accusation but Railing As first they said they nourished Questions of Prerogative and Liberty between the King and his People to the end that seeming much addicted to his Majesties Service they might get themselves into Places of greatest Trust and Power in the Kingdom B. How could this be called an Accusation in which there is no Fact for any Accusers to apply their Proofs to or their Witnesses for granting that these Questions of Prerogative had been moved by them who can prove that their end was to gain to themselves and Friends the Places of Trust and Power in the Kingdom A. A second Accusation was That they endeavoured to suppress the purity and power of Religion B. That 's Canting it is not in man's power to suppress the power of Religion A. They meant that they suppress the Doctrine of the Presbyterians that is to say the very foundation of the then Parliaments treacherous pretensions A third That they cherished Arminians Papists and Libertines by which they meant the common Protestants which meddle not with Disputes to the end they might compose a Body fit to act according to their Counsels and Resolutions A Fourth That they endeavoured to put the King upon other courses of raising Money than by the ordinary way of Parliaments Judge whether these may be properly called Accusations or not rather spiteful Reproaches of the King's Government B. Methinks this last was a very great fault for what good could there be in putting the King upon an odd course of getting Money when the Parliament was willing to supply him as far as to the security of the Kingdom or to the Honour of the King should be necessary A. But I told you before they would give him none but with a condition he should cut off the Heads of whom they pleas'd how faithfully soever they had serv'd him and if he would have sacrificed all his Friends to their Ambition yet they would have found other excuses for denying him Subsidies for they were resolv'd to take from him the Sovereign Power to themselves which they could never do without taking great care that he should have no Money at all In the next place they put into the Remonstrance as faults of them whose Counsel the King followed all those things which since the beginning of the King's Reign were by them misliked whether faults or not and whereof they were not able to judge for want of knowledge of the Causes and Motives that induced the King to do them and were known only to the King himself and such of his Privy-Council as he revealed them to B. But what were those particular pretended faults A. 1. The Dissolution of his first Parliament at Oxford 2. The Dissolution of his second Parliament being in the second year of his Reign 3. The Dissolution of his Parliament in the fourth year of his Reign 4. The fruitless Expedition against Cales 5. The Peace made with Spain whereby the Palatines Cause was deserted and left to chargeable and hopeless Treaties 6. The sending of Commissions to raise Money by way of Loan 7. Raising of Ship-Money 8. Enlargement of Forrests contrary to Magna Charta 9. The Design of engrossing all the Gunpowder into one hand and keeping it in the Tower of London 10. A Design to bring in the use of Brass Money 11. The Fines Imprisonments Stigmatizings Mutilations Whippings Pillories Gags Confinements and Banishments by Sentence in the Court of Star-Chamber 12. The displacing of Judges 13. Illegal Acts of the Council-Table 14. The Arbitrary and Illegal Power of the Earl Marshal's Court. 15. The abuses in Chancery Exchequer Chamber and Court of Wards 16. The selling of Titles of Honour of Judges and Serjeants Places and other Offices 17. The Insolence of Bishops and other Clerks in Suspensions Excommunications Deprivations and Degradations of divers painful and learned and pious Ministers B. Were there any such Ministers degraded deprived or excommunicated A. I cannot tell but I remember I have heard threatned divers painful unlearned and seditious Ministers 18. The Excess of severity of the High-Commission Court 19. The Preaching before the King against the Property of the Subject and for the Prerogative of the King above the Law and divers other petty quarrels they had to the Government which though they were laid upon this Faction yet they knew they would fall upon the King himself in the Judgment of the People to whom by printing it was communicated Again after the Dissolution of the Parliament May the 5 th 1640. they find other faults as the Dissolution it self The Imprisoning some Members of both Houses A forced Loan of Money attempted in London The Continuance of the Convocation
not permitted to go quietly to the performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there were no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament and to this Bill they got the Kings Assent and in the beginning of September after they voted that the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the King's Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members for I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely any way to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenents and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should act for their purposes but not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourably laid to their charge the main cause of pulling them down was the envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be governed A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be revenged on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their Purses and win to their Service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest in it of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of governing all the World What is it they are learned in Is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preach'd but matter of Philosophy For Religion in it self admits no controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his Will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scripture was written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew Tongues it was once to the Detection of Roman fraud and to the ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary but now that 's done and we have the Scripture in English and preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by understanding well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the World before the power of Popes was set up that Philosophy was much conducing to Power in a Common-wealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity have very much conduced to the advancement of the Professors thereof to Places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the ancient Kingdoms of the World as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and Places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France What Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France says thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets these Men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the Multitude obedient to them And a little after It is a Custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same Language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Countrey more Eastward than Judea Were not these in great Authority in their Countrey And are they not in most part of Christendome thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most ancient Kingdom and Nation of the World and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subjects ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus says thus The whole Countrey of Aegypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have one as being of most credit with the People both for their Devotion towards the Gods and also for their understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally these men in the greatest Affairs of all are the King's Councellors partly executing and partly informing and advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection
of Sacrifices the things that are to come and reading to him out of their Holy Books such of the Actions there recorded as are profitable for him to know 'T is not there as in Greece one man or one woman that has the Priesthood but they are many that attend the Honours and Sacrifices of the Gods and leave the same employment to their posterity which next to the King hath the greatest Power and Authority Concerning the Judicature amongst the Aegyptians he saith thus from out of the most eminent Cities Hieropolis Thebes and Memphis they choose Judges which are a Councel not inferior to that of Areopagus in Athens or that of the Senate in Lacedaemon When they are met being in number 30 they choose one from amongst themselves to be Chief Justice and the City whereof he is sendeth another in his place This Chief Justice wore about his Neck hung in a Gold Chain a Jewel of pretious Stones the name of which Jewel was Truth which when the Chief Justice had put on then began the Pleading c. and when the Judges had agreed on the Sentence then did the Chief Justice put this Jewel of Truth to one of the Pleas. You see now what power was acquir'd in Civil matters by the Conjuncture of Philosophy and Divinity Let us come now to the Common-wealth of the Jews Was not the Priesthood in a Family namely the Levites as well as the Priesthood of Aegypt Did not the High Priest give Judgment by the Breast-plate of Urim and Thummim Look upon the Kingdom of Assyria and the Philosophers and Chaldaeans Had they not Lands and Cities belonging to their Family even in Abraham's time who dwelt you know in Vr of the Chaldaeans of these the same Author says thus The Chaldaeans are a Sect in Politicks like to that of the Aegyptian Priests for being ordained for the Service of the Gods they spend the whole time of their life in Philosophy being of exceeding great reputation in Astrology and pretending much also to Prophecy foretelling things to come by Purifications and Sacrifices and to find out by certain Incantations the preventing of harm and the bringing to pass of good They have also skill in Augury and in the Interpretation of Dreams and Wonders nor are unskilful in the Art of foretelling by the Inwards of Beasts sacrificed and have their Learning not as the Greeks for the Philosophy of the Chaldaeons goes to their Family by Tradition and the Son receives it from his Father From Assyria let us pass into India and see what esteem the Philosophers had there The whole Multitude says Diodorus of the Indians is divided into seven parts whereof the first is the Body of Philosophers for number the least but for eminence the first for they are free from Taxes and as they are not Masters of others so are no others Masters of them By private men they are called to the Sacrifices and to the care of burials of the dead as being thought most beloved of the Gods and skilful in the Doctrine concerning Hell and for this Employment receive Gifts and Honours very considerable They are also of great use to the People of India for being taken at the beginning of the year into the Great Assembly they foretell them of great Drouths great Rains also of Winds and of Sicknesses and of whatsoever is profitable for them to know before-hand The same Author concerning the Laws of the Aethiopians saith thus The Laws of the Aethiopians seem very different from those of other Nations and especially about the Election of their Kings for the Priests propound some of the Chief Men amongst them named in a Catalogue and whom the God which according to a certain Custom is carried about to Feastings does accept of him the Multitude elect for their King and presently adore and honour him as a God put into the Government by Divine Providence The King being chosen he has the manner of his life limited to him by the Laws and does all other things according to the Custom of the Countrey neither rewarding nor punishing any man otherwise than from the beginning is established amongst them by Law nor use they to put any man to death though he be condemned to it but to send some Officer to him with a Token of death who seeing the Token goes presently to his House and kills himself presently after But the strangest thing of all is that which they do concerning the death of their Kings for the Priests that live in Meröe and spend their time about the Worship and Honour of the Gods and are in greatest Authority when they have a mind to it send a Messenger to the King to bid him die for that the Gods have given such order and that the Commandments of the Immortals are not by any means to be neglected by those that are by Nature Mortal using also other Speeches to him which men of simple Judgment and that have not reason enough to dispute against those unnecessary Commands as being educated in an old and undelible Custom are content to admit of Therefore in former times the Kings did obey the Priests not as mastered by Force and Arms but as having their reason mastered by Superstition But in the time of Ptolomy the second Ergamenes King of the Aethiopians having had his breeding in Philosophy after the manner of the Greeks being the first that durst dispute their power took heart as befitted a King came with Soldiers to a place called Abaton where was then the Golden Temple of the Aethiopians killed all the Priests abolished the Custom and rectified the Kingdom according to his will B. Though they that were killed were most damnable Impostors yet the Act was cruel A. It was so but were not the Priests cruel to cause their Kings whom a little before they adored as Gods to make away themselves The King killed them for the safety of his Person they him out of Ambition or love of Change The King's Act may be coloured with the good of his People The Priests had no pretence against their Kings who were certainly very godly or else would never have obeyed the Command of the Priests by a Messenger unarmed to kill themselves Our late King the best King perhaps that ever was you know was murdered having been first persecuted by War at the incitement of Presbyterian Ministers who are therefore guilty of the death of all that fell in that War which were I believe in England Scotland and Ireland near 100000 persons Had it not been much better that those seditious Ministers which were not perhaps 1000 had been all killed before they had preached It had been I confess a great Massacre but the killing of 100000 is a greater B. I am glad the Bishops were out at this business as ambitious as some say they are it did not appear in that business for they were Enemies to them that were in it A. But I intend not by these Quotations to
look'd to whereby the Interpretation of a Verse in the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible is oftentimes the cause of Civil War and the Deposing and Assassinating of God's Anointed and yet converse with those Divinity Disputers as long as you will you will hardly find one in a hundred discreet enough to be employed in any great affair either of War or Peace It is not the Right of the Sovereign though granted to him by every man's express consent that can enable him to do his Office it is the Obedience of the Subject that must do that For what good is it to promise Allegiance and then by and by to cry out as some Ministers did in the Pulpit To your Tents O Israel Common People know nothing of Right or Wrong by their own Meditation they must therefore be taught the Grounds of their Duty and the Reasons why Calamities ever follow Disobedience to their Lawful Sovereigns But to the contrary our Rebels were publickly taught Rebellion in the Pulpits and that there was no sin but the doing of what the Preachers forbad or the omission of what they advis'd But now the King was the Parliaments Prisoner why did not the Presbyterians advance their own Interest by restoring him A. The Parliament in which there were more Presbyterians yet than Independents might have gotten what they would of the King during his Life if they had not by an unconscionable and sottish Ambition obstructed the way to their Ends. They sent him four Propositions to be signed and pass'd by him as Acts of Parliament telling him when these were granted they would send Commissioners to treat with him of any other Articles The Propositions were these First That the Parliament should have the Militia and the Power of Levying Money to maintain it for 20 years and after that Term the exercise thereof to return to the King in case the Parliament think the safety of the Kingdom concern'd in it B The first Article takes from the King the Militia and consequently the whole Sovereignty for ever A. The Second was That the King should justifie the Proceedings of the Parliament against himself and declare void all Oaths and Declarations made by him against the Parliament B. This was to make him guilty of the War and of all the Blood spilt therein A. The Third was To take away all Titles of Honour conferred by the King since the Great Seal was carried to him in May 1642. The Fourth was That the Parliament should adjourn themselves when and to what place and for what time they pleas'd These Propositions the King refused to grant as he had reason but sent others of his own not much less advantagious to the Parliament and desir'd a Personal Treaty with the Parliament for the setling of the Peace of the Kingdom but the Parliament denying them to be sufficient for that purpose voted That there should be no more Addresses made to him nor Messages receiv'd from him but that they would settle the Kingdom without him And this they voted partly upon the Speeches and Menaces of the Army-Faction then present in the House of Commons whereof one advised these Three Points 1. To secure the King in some Inland Castle with Guards 2. To draw up Articles of Impeachment against him 3. To lay him by and settle the Kingdom without him Another said That his denying of the four Bills was the denying Protection to his Subjects and that therefore they might deny him subjection and added that till the Parliament forsook the Army the Army would never forsake the Parliament This was threatning Last of all Cromwel himself told them It was now expected that the Parliament should govern and defend the Kingdom and not any longer let the People expect their safety from a Man whose Heart God had hardned nor let those that had so well defended the Parliament be left hereafter to the rage of an irreconcilable Enemy lest they seek their safety some other way This again was threatning as also the laying his hand upon his Sword when he spake it And hereupon the Vote of Non-Addresses was made an Ordinance which the House would afterwards have recalled but was forced by Cromwel to keep their word The Scotch were displeased with it partly because their Brethren the Presbyterians had lost a great deal of their power in England and partly also because they had sold the King into their hands The King now published a passionate Complaint to his People of this hard dealing with him which made them pity him but not yet rise in his behalf B. Was not this think you the true time for Cromwel to take possession A. By no means There were yet many obstacles to be removed He was not General of the Army The Army was still for a Parliament The City of London discontented about their Militia The Scots expected with an Army to rescue the King His Adjutators were Leavelers and against Monarchy who though they had helped him to bring under the Parliament yet like Dogs that are easily taught to fetch and not easily taught to render would not make him King So that Cromwel had these businesses following to overcome before he could formally make himself a Sovereign Prince 1. To be Generalissimo 2. To remove the King 3. To suppress all Insurrections here 4. To oppose the Scots and lastly To dissolve the present Parliament Mighty businesses which he could never promise himself to overcome therefore I cannot believe he then thought to be King but only by well serving the strongest Party which was always his main Politie to proceed as far as that and fortune would carry him B. The Parliament were certainly no less foolish than wicked in deserting thus the King before they had the Army at a better Command than they had A. In the beginning of 1648. the Parliament gave Commission to Philip Earl of Pembroke then made Chancellor of Oxford together with some of the Doctors there as good Divines as he to purge the University by vertue whereof they turned out all such as were not of their Faction and all such as had approved the use of the Common-Prayer-Book as also divers scandalous Ministers and Scholars that is such as customarily and without need took the Name of God into their Mouths or used to speak wantonly or use the company of lewd Women And for this last I cannot but commend them B. So shall not I for it is just such another piece of piety as to turn men out of an Hospital because they are lame Where can a man probably learn godliness and how to correct his vices better than in the Universities erected for that purpose A. It may be the Parliament thought otherwise for I have often heard the Complaints of Parents that their Children were debauched there to drunkenness wantonness gaming and other vices consequent to these nor is it a wonder amongst so many Youths if they did not corrupt one another in despite of their Tutors who
God He offers no proof against any of this but says only I make Atheism to be more reasonable than Superstition which is not true For I deny that there is any reason either in the Atheist or in the Superstitious And because the Atheist thinks he has reason where he has none I think him the more irrational of the two But all this while he argues not against any of this but enquires only what is become of my natural Worship of God and of his Existency Infiniteness Incomprehensibility Unity and Ubiquity As if whatsoever reason can suggest must be suggested all at once First all men by nature had an opinion of Gods Existency but of his other Attributes not so soon but by reasoning and by degrees And for the Attributes of the true God they were never suggested but by the Word of God written In that I say Atheism is a sin of ignorance he says I excuse it The Prophet David says The fool hath said in his heart There is no God Is it not then a sin of folly 'T is agreed between us that right reason dictates There is a God Does it not follow that denying of God is a sin proceeding from mis-reasoning If it be not a sin of ignorance it must be a sin of malice Can a man malice that which he thinks has no being But may not one think there is a God and yet maliciously deny him If he think there is a God he is no Atheist and so the question is changed into this whether any man that thinks there is a God dares deliberately deny it For my part I think not For upon what confidence dares any man deliberately I say oppose the Omnipotent David saith of himself My feet were ready to slip when I saw the prosperity of the wicked Therefore it is likely the feet of men less holy slip oftner But I think no man living is so daring being out of passion as to hold it as his opinion Those wicked men that for a long time proceeded so succesfully in the late horrid Rebellion may perhaps make some think they were constant and resolved Atheists but I think rather that they forgot God than believed there was none He that believes there is such an Atheist comes a little too near that opinion himself Nevertheless if words spoken in passion signifie a denial of a God no punishment praeordained by Law can be too great for such an insolence because there is no living in a Common-wealth with men to whose oaths we cannot reasonably give credit As to that I say An Atheist is punished by God not as a Subject by his King but as an Enemy and to my argument for it namely because he never acknowledged himself Gods Subject He opposeth That if nature dictate that there is a God and to be worshiped in such and such manner then Atheism is not a sin of meer ignorance as if either I or he did hold that Nature dictates the manner of Gods Worship or any article of our Creed or whether to worship with or without a Surplice Secondly he answers that a Rebel is still a Subject de Jure though not de Facto And 't is granted But though the King lose none of his right by the Traytors act yet the Traytor loseth the priviledg of being punisht by a praecedent Law and therefore may be punish'd at the Kings will as Ravillac was for murdering Henry the 4th of France An open Enemy and a perfidious Traytor are both enemies Had not his Lordship read in the Roman story how Perseus and other just enemies of that State were wont to be punished But what is this trifling question to my excusing of Atheism In the seventh Paragraph of my Book de Cive he found the words in Latin which he here citeth And to the same sense I have said in my Leviathan That the right of nature whereby God raigneth over men is to be derived not from his creating them as if he required obedience as of Gratitude but from his irresistable Power This he says is absurd and dishonourable Whereas first all power is honourable and greatest power is most honourable Is it not a more noble tenure for a King to hold his Kingdom and the right to punish those that transgress his Laws from his Power than from the gratitude or gift of the Transgressor There is nothing therefore here of dishonour to God Almighty But see the subtility of his disputing He saw he could not catch Leviathan in this place he looks for him in my Book de Cive which is Latine to try what he could fish out of that And says I make our obedience to God depend upon our weakness as if these words signified the Dependence and not the necessity of our submission or that incumbere and dependere were all one J. D. For T. H. his God is not the God of Christians nor of any rational men Our God is every where and seeing he hath no parts he must be wholly here and wholly there and wholly every where So Nature it self dictateth It cannot be said honourably of God that he is in a place for nothing is in a place but that which hath proper bounds of its greatness But T. H. his God is not wholly every where No man can conceive that any thing is all in this place and all in another place at the same time for none of these things ever have or can be incident to sense So far well if by conceiving he mean comprehending but then follows That these are absurd Speeches taken upon credit without any signification at all from deceived Philosophers and deceived or deceiving School-men Thus he denieth the Ubiquity of God A Circumscriptive a Definitive and a Repletive being in a place is some heathen language to him T. H. Though I believe the Omnipotence of God and that he can do what he will yet I dare not say how every thing is done because I cannot conceive nor comprehend either the Divine substance or the way of its operation And I think it Impiety to speak concerning God any thing of my own head or upon the Authority of Philosophers or School-men which I understand not without warrant in the Scripture And what I say of Omnipotence I say also of Ubiquity But his Lordship is more valiant in this place telling us that God is wholly here and wholly there and wholly every where because he has no parts I cannot comprehend nor conceive this For methinks it implies also that the whole World is also in the whole God and in every part of God nor can I conceive how any thing can be called Whole which has no parts nor can I find any thing of this in the Scripture If I could find it there I could believe it and if I could find it in the publick Doctrine of the Church I could easily abstain from contradicting it The School-men say also that the Soul of Man meaning his upper Soul which
were not only a sinful Scandal in respect of other Christian Mens Consciences but a perfidious forsaking of his Charge In which words I distinguish between a Pastor and one of the Sheep of his Flock St. Peter sinned in denying Christ and so does every Pastor that having undertaken the Charge of Preaching the Gospel in the Kingdom of an Infidel where he could expect at the undertaking of his Charge no less than Death And why but because he violates his Trust in doing contrary to his Commission St. Peter was an Apostle of Christ and bound by his voluntary undertaking of that Office not only to Confess Christ but also to Preach him before those Infidels whom he knew would like Wolves devour him And therefore when Paul and the rest of the Apostles were forbidden to preach Christ they gave this Answer We ought to obey God rather than Men. And it was to his Disciples only which had undertaken that Office that Christ saith he that denyeth me before Men shall be denyed before the Angels of God And so I think I have sufficiently answered this place and shewed that I do not allow the denying of Christ upon any colour of Torments to his Lordship nor to any other that has undertaken the Office of a Preacher Which if he think right he will perhaps in this case put himself into the number of those whom he calls merciful Doctors whereas now he extends his severity beyond the bounds of common equity He has read Cicero and perhaps this Story in him The Senate of Rome would have sent Cicero to treat of Peace with Marcus Antonius but when Cicero had shewed them the just fear he had of being killed by him he was excused and if they had forced him to it and he by terror turned Enemy to them he had in equity been excusable But his Lordship I believe did write this more valiantly than he would have acted it J. D. He Deposeth Christ from his true Kingly Office making his Kingdom not to Commence or begin before the day of Judgment And the Regiment wherewith Christ Governeth his Faithful in this Life is not properly a Kingdom but a Pastoral Office or a right to Teach And a little after Christ had not Kingly Authority committed to him by his Father in this World but only Consiliary and Doctrinal T. H. How do I take away Christs Kingly Office He neither draws it by Consequence from my Words nor offers any Argument at all against my Doctrine The words he cites are in the Contents of Chap. 17. de Cive In the Body of the Chapter it is thus The time of Christ's being upon the Earth is called in Scripture the Regeneration often but the Kingdom never When the Son of God comes in Majesty and all the Angels with him then he shall sit on the seat of Majesty My Kingdom is not of this World God sent not his Son that he should Judge the World I came not to Judge the World but to save the World Man who made me a Judge or Divider amongst you Let thy Kingdom come And other words to the same purpose out of which it is clear that Christ took upon him no Regal Power upon Earth before his Assumption But at his Assumption his Apostles asked him if he would then restore the Kingdom to Israel and he Answered it was not for them to know So that hitherto Christ had not taken that Office upon him unless his Lordship think that the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Christ be two distinct Kingdoms From the Assumption ever since all true Christians say daily in their Prayers Thy Kingdom come But his Lordship had perhaps forgot that But when then beginneth Christ to be a King I say it shall be then when he comes again in Majesty with all the Angels And even then he shall Reign as he is Man under his Father For St. Paul saith 1 Cor. 15.25 26. He must Raign till he hath put all Enemies under his feet the last Enemy that shall be destroyed is Death But when shall God the Father Raign again St. Paul saith in the same Chapter verse 28. When all things shall be subdued unto him then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him that God may be all in all And verse 24. Then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God even the Father when he shall have put down all Rule Authority and Power This is at the Resurrection And by this it is manifest that his Lordship was not so well versed in Scripture as he ought to have been J. D. He taketh away his Priestly or Propitiatory Office And although this Act of our Redemption be not alwayes in Scripture called a Sacrifice and Oblation but sometimes a Price yet by Price we are not to understand any thing by the value whereof he could claim right to a Pardon for us from his Offended Father but that Price which God the Father was pleased in mercy to demand And again Not that the Death of one Man though without sin can satisfie for the Offences of all Men in the rigour of Justice but in the mercy of God that ordained such Sacrifices for sin as he was pleased in mercy to accept He knoweth no difference between one who is meer man and one who was both God and man between a Levitical Sacrifice and the All-sufficient Sacrifice of the Cross between the Blood of a Calf and the precious Blood of the Son of God T. H. Yes I know there is a difference between Blood and Blood but not any such as can make a difference in the Case here questioned Our Saviour's Blood was most precious but still it was Humane Blood and I hope his Lordship did never think otherwise or that it was not accepted by his Father for our Redemption J. D. And touching the Prophetical Office of Christ I do much doubt whether he do believe in earnest that there is any such thing as Prophecy in the World He maketh very little difference between a Prophet and a Mad-man and a Demoniack And if there were nothing else says he that bewrayed their madness yet that very arrogating such inspiration to themselves is Argument enough He maketh the pretence of Inspiration in any man to be and always to have been on opinion pernicious to Peace and tending to the dissolution of all Civil Government He subjecteth all Prophetical Revelations from God to the sole Pleasure and Censure of the Soveraign Prince either to Authorize them or to Exauctorate them So as two Prophets prophecying the same thing at the same time in the Dominions of two different Princes the one shall be a true Prophet the other a false And Christ who had the approbation of no Soveraign Prince upon his grounds was to be reputed a false Prophet every where Every man therefore ought to consider who is the Soveraign Prophet that is to say who it is
from sin and to exhort them by good motives both from Scripture and Reason to obey the Laws and supposeth them though under forty years old by the help they have in the University able in case the Law be not written to teach the people old and young what they ought to follow in doubtful cases of Conscience that is to say they are authorised to expound the Laws of Nature but not so as to make it a doubtful case whether the King's Laws be to be obeyed or not All they ought to do is from the King's Authority And therefore this my Doctrine is no Weed J. D. 17. He admitteth incestuous Copulations of the Heathens according to their Heathenish Laws to have been lawful Marriages Though the Scripture teach us expresly that for those abominations the Land of Canaan spued out her Inhabitants Levit. 18.28 T. H. The 17 th he hath corrupted with a false interpretation of the Text. For in that Chapter from the beginning to verse 20 are forbidden Marriages in certain degrees of kindred From verse 20 which begins with Moreover to the 28 th are forbidden Sacrificing of Children to Molech and Prophaning of God's name and Buggery with Man and Beast with this cause exprest For all these abominations have the men of the Land done which were before you and the Land is defiled That the Land spue not you out also As for Marriages within the degrees prohibited they are not referred to the abominations of the Heathen Besides for some time after Adam such Marriages were necessary J. D. 18. I say that no other Article of Faith besides this that Jesus is Christ is necessary to a Christian man for Salvation 19. Because Christ's Kingdom is not of this World therefore neither can his Ministers unless they be Kings require obedience in his name They have no right of Commanding no power to make Laws T. H. These two smell comfortably and of Scripture The contrary Doctrine smells of Ambition and encroachment of Jurisdiction or Rump of the Roman Tyranny J. D. 20. I pass by his errors about Oaths about Vows about the Resurrection about the Kingdom of Christ about the Power of the Keys Binding Loosing Excommunication c. his ignorant mistakes of meritum congrui and condigni active and passive obedience and many more for fear of being tedious to the Reader T. H. The tears of School Divinity of which number are meritum congrui meritum condigni and passive obedience are so obscure as no man living can tell what they mean so that they that use them may admit or deny their meaning as it shall serve their turns I said not that this was their meaning but that I thought it was so For no man living can tell what a School man means by his words Therefore I expounded them according to their true signification Merit ex condigno is when a thing is deserved by Pact as when I say the Labourer is worthy of his hire I mean meritum ex condigno But when a man of his own grace throweth Money among the people with an intention that what part soever of it any of them could catch he that catcheth merits it not by Pact nor by precedent Merit as a Labourer but because it was congruent to the purpose of him that cast it amongst them In all other meaning these words are but Jargon which his Lordship had learnt by rote Also passive obedience signifies nothing except it may be called passive obedience when a man refraineth himself from doing what the Law hath forbidden For in his Lordship's sense the Thief that is hang'd for stealing hath fulfilled the Law which I think is absurd J. D. His whole works are a heap of mishapen Errors and absurd Paradoxes vented with the confidence of a Jugler the brags of a Mountebank and the Authority of some Pythagoras or third Cato lately dropped down from Heaven Thus we have seen how the Hobbian Principles do destroy the Existence the Simplicity the Ubiquity the Eternity and Infiniteness of God the Doctrine of the blessed Trinity the Hypostatical Union the Kingly Sacerdotal and Prophetical Office of Christ the Being and Operation of the Holy Ghost Heaven Hell Angels Devils the Immortality of the Soul the Catholick and all National Churches the holy Scriptures holy Orders the holy Sacraments the whole frame of Religion and the Worship of God the Laws of Nature the reality of Goodness Justice Piety Honesty Conscience and all that is Sacred If his Disciples have such an implicite Faith that they can digest all these things they may feed with Ostriches T. H. He here concludes his first Chapter with bitter Reproaches to leave in his Reader as he thought a sting supposing perhaps that he will Read nothing but the beginning and end of his Book as is the custom of many men But to make him lose that petty piece of cunning I must desire of the Reader one of these two things Either that he would read with it the places of my Leviathan which he cites and see not only how he answers my arguments but also what the arguments are which he produceth against them or else that he would forbear to condemn me so much as in his thought for otherwise he is unjust The name of Bishop is of great Authority but these words are not the words of a Bishop but of a passionate School-man too fierce and unseemly in any man whatsoever Besides they are untrue Who that knows me will say I have the confidence of a Jugler or that I use to brag of any thing much less that I play the Mountebank What my works are he was no sit Judge But now he has provoked me I will say thus much of them that neither he if he had lived could nor I if I would can extinguish the light which is set up in the World by the greatest part of them and for these Doctrines which he impugneth I have few opposers but such whose Profit or whose Fame in Learning is concerned in them He accuses me first of destroying the Existence of God that is to say he would make the World believe I were an Atheist But upon what ground Because I say that God is a Spirit but Corporeal But to say that is allowed me by St. Paul that says There is a Spiritual Body and there is an Animal Body 1 Cor. 15. He that holds that there is a God and that God is really somewhat for Body is doubtlesly a real Substance is as far from being an Atheist as is possible to be But he that says God is an Incorporeal Substance no man can be sure whether he be an Atheist or not For no man living can tell whether there be any Substance at all that is not also Corporeal For neither the word Incorporeal nor Immaterial nor any word equivalent to it is to be found in Scripture or in Reason But on the contrary that the Godhead dwelleth bodily in Christ is found in Colos. 2.9
an exceeding great number of Men of the better sort that had been so educated as that in their Youth having read the Books written by famous Men of the ancient Grecian and Roman Common-wealths concerning their Politie and great Actions in which Books the Popular Government was extoll'd by that glorious Name of Liberty and Monarchy disgraced by the Name of Tyranny they became thereby in love with their Forms of Government and out of these Men were chosen the greatest part of the House of Commons or if they were not the greatest part yet by advantage of their Eloquence were always able to sway the rest Fifthly The City of London and other great Towns of Trade having in admiration the prosperity of the Low-Countries after they had revolted from their Monarch the King of Spain were inclin'd to think that the like change of Government here would to them produce the like prosperity Sixthly There were a very great number that had either wasted their Fortunes or thought them too mean for the good Parts they thought were in themselves and more there were that had able Bodies but saw no means how honestly to get their Bread These long'd for a War and hoped to maintain themselves hereafter by the lucky choosing of a Party to side with and consequently did for the most part serve under them that had greatest plenty of Money Lastly The People in general were so ignorant of their duty as that not one perhaps of 10000 knew what right any man had to command him or what necessity there was of King or Common-wealth for which he was to part with his Money against his will but thought himself to be so much Master of whatsoever he possess'd that it could not be taken from him upon any pretence of common safety without his own consent King they thought was but a Title of the highest Honour which Gentleman Knight Baron Earl Duke were but steps to ascend to with the help of Riches and had no Rule of Equity but Presidents and Custom and he was thought wisest and fittest to be chosen for a Parliament that was most averse to the granting of Subsidies or other publick Payments B. In such a constitution of People methinks the King is already outed of his Government so as they need not have taken Arms for it for I cannot imagine how the King should come by any means to resist them A. There was indeed very great difficulty in the business but of that Point you will be better inform'd in the pursuit of this Narration B. But I desire to know first the several Grounds of the Pretences both of the Pope and of the Presbyterians by which they claim a Right to govern us as they do in chief and after that from whence and when crept in the Pretences of that long Parliament for a Democracy A. As for the Papists they challenge this Right from a Text in Deut. 17. and other like Texts according to the old Latin Translation in these words And he that out of pride shall refuse to obey the Commandment of that Priest which shall at that time minister before the Lord thy God that Man shall by the Sentence of the Judge be put to death And because as the Jews were the People of God then so is all Christendome the People of God now they infer from thence that the Pope whom they pretend to be the High-Priest of all Christian People ought also to be obeyed in all his Decrees by all Christians upon pain of death Again whereas in the New Testament Christ saith All Power is given unto me in Heaven and in Earth go therefore and teach all Nations and baptize them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and teach them to observe all these things that I have commanded you From thence they infer that the Command of the Apostles was to be obeyed and by consequence the Nations were bound to be govern'd by them and especially by the Prince of the Apostles St. Peter and by his Successors the Popes of Rome B. For the Text in the Old Testament I do not see how the Commandment of God to the Jews to obey their Priests can be interpreted to have the like force in the Case of other Nations Christian more than upon Nations Unchristian for all the World are Gods People unless we also grant that a King cannot of an Infidel be made Christian without making himself subject to the Laws of that Apostle or Priest or Minister that shall convert him The Jews were a peculiar People of God a Sacerdotal Kingdom and bound to no other Law but what first Moses and afterwards every High-Priest did go and receive immediately from the mouth of God in Mount Sinai in the Tabernacle of the Ark and in the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Temple And for the Text in St. Mathew I know the Words in the Gospel are not Go teach but Go and make Disciples and that there is a great difference between a Subject and a Disciple and between Teaching and Commanding And if such Texts as these must be so interpreted why do not Christian Kings lay down their Titles of Majesty and Sovereignty and call themselves the Popes Lieutenants But the Doctors of the Romish Church seem to decline that Title of Absolute Power in their distinction of Power Spiritual and Temporal but this distinction I do not very well understand A. By Spiritual Power they mean the Power to determine Points of Faith and to be Judges in the Inner Court of Conscience of Moral Duties and of a Power to punish those Men that obey not their Precepts by Ecclesiastical Censure that is by Excommunication and this Power they say the Pope hath immediately from Christ without dependence upon any King or Sovereign Assembly whose Subjects they be that stand Excommunicate But for the Power Temporal which consists in judging and punishing those Actions that are done against the Civil Laws they say they do not pretend to it directly but only indirectly that is to say so far forth as such Actions tend to the hindrance or advancement of Religion and good Manners which they mean when they say in ordine ad spiritualia B. What Power then is left to Kings and other Civil Sovereigns which the Pope may not pretend to be his in ordine ad spiritualia A. None or very little and this Power the Pope pretends to in all Christendome but some of his Bishops also in their several Diocesses Jure Divino that is immediately from Christ without deriving it from the Pope B. But what if a Man refuse obedience to this pretended Power of the Pope and his Bishops What harm can Excommunication do him especially if he be the Subject of another Sovereign A. Very great harm for by the Pope's or Bishop's signification of it to the Civil Power he shall be punish'd sufficiently B. He were in an ill Case then that adventured to write or speak
in defence of the Civil Power that must be punish'd by him whose Rights he defended like Vzza that was slain because he would needs unbidden put forth his Hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said at least by any of the Popes Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to do with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same Case as if a Nation should be cast off by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not be taken so much for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation methinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights that the Pope pretended to in the Kingdoms of other Princes A. First An Exemption of all Priests Friars and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and exaction of Tenths First Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supream Judge concerning Lawfulness of Marriage i. e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognisance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good A Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly A Power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This Power of absolving Subjects of their Obedience as also that other of being Judge of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as is possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and no Man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth only to a Right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd Which supposition it seems you believe not else you would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that would cast you Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can only kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all English men except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd A. Doubtless he that dies in sin without repentance is damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the Kings Laws either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent You see what follows but to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrines of those Men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another Case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion So the different Sects of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresies but in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the salvation of Mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and Dominion over Mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the Holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our Actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not only Men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the Interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in an Act of Parliament in the first year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordain'd That the persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to adjudge any Matter or Cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the first four General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the Assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new error that hath not yet been declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declar'd Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to himself Nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declared a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie and that as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those Points that the first four General Councils have declared Heresie B. The first General Council held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ. The second General Council held at Constantinople declared Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The third Council assembled at Ephesus condemned the
Learning there was none erected till that time thoogh it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long time before many more were added to them by the devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy Men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their Friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to Preferment both in Church and Common-wealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect receiv'd was the maintenance of the Popes Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School-Divines who striving to make good many Points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School-Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may perceive that shall consider the Writings of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or any other School-Divine of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admir'd by two sorts of Men otherwise prudent enough the one of which sorts were of those that were already devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admir'd the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent Men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine So that all sorts of People were fully resolv'd that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more than what was due to him B. I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such Authority will have but a hard match of it for want of Men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great Rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Popes quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the 4 th wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it But the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the 8 th could then so utterly extinguish the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First the Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their Lives which the Gentry and Men of good Education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common People which from a long Custom had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly the Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly the Revenue of Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings Hands and by him being disposed of to the most Eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a Nature quick and severe in the punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his Designs Lastly as to Invasion from abroad in case the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre Besides the French and Spanish Forces were employed at that time one against another and though they had been at leisure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniards found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was amongst other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterward did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his anger There was besides a Controversie in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church And because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let that Act of Parliament pass In the Reign of King Edward the 6 th the Doctrine of Luther had taken so great root in England that they threw out also a great many of the Popes new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by Henry the 8 th saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward And so it hath continued till this day excepting the Interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical Men. But though the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of
when they sent unto him 19 Propositions whereof above a dozen were Demands of several Powers essential parts of the Power Sovereign But before that time they had demanded some of them in a Petition which they called a Petition of Right which nevertheless the King had granted them in a former Parliament though he deprived himself thereby not only of the Power to levy Money without their consent but also of his ordinary Revenue by Custom of Tonnage and Poundage and of the Liberty to put into Custody such Men as he thought likely to disturb the Peace and raise Sedition in the Kingdom As for the Men that did this 't is enough to say they were the Members of the last Parliament and of some other Parliaments in the beginning of King Charles and the end of King James his Reign to name them all is not necessary farther than the Story shall require Most of them were Members of the House of Commons some few also of the Lords but all such as had a great opinion of their sufficiency in Politicks which they thought was not sufficiently taken notice of by the King B. How could the Parliament when the King had a great Navy and a great number of Train'd Soldiers and all the Magazines of Ammunition in his power be able to begin the War A. The King had these things indeed in his right but that signifies little when they that had the Custody of the Navy and Magazines and with them all the Train'd Soldiers and in a manner all his Subjects were by the preaching of Presbyterian Ministers and the seditious whisperings of false and ignorant Politicians made his Enemies And when the King could have no Money but what the Parliament should give him which you may be sure should not be enough to maintain his Regal Power which they intended to take from him And yet I think they would never have adventured into the Field but for that unlucky business of imposing upon the Scots who were all Presbyterians our Book of Common-Prayer for I believe the English would never have taken well that the Parliament should make War upon the King upon any provocation unless it were in their own defence in case the King should first make War upon them and therefore it behooved them to provoke the King that he might do something that might look like Hostility It happened in the Year 1637. that the King by the Advice as it is thought of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common-Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for conformity to this Kingdom by the Ministers there for an ordinary Form of Divine Service This being read in the Church at Edenburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much ado to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves which impudently they called a Covenant with God to put down Episcopacy without consulting with the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English-men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's Interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them For the thing which those Domocraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hinderance to his Designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to battle and with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scoth sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it The Issue was peace and the King thereupon went to Edenburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yielded to the abolishing of it but by this means the English were cross'd in their hope of a Parliament but the said Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliaments help at no less a price than Sovereignty it self B. But what was the cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from the Episcopacy for I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that they were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church-discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-rul'd by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other Men are pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other Mens thoughts farther than I am led by the consideration of Humane Nature in general But upon this consideration I see first that Men of ancient Wealth and Nobility are not apt to brook that poor Scholars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their fellows Secondly That from the Emulation of Glory between the Nations they might be willing to see this Nation afflicted by Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the Points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great Sum of Money as a reward of their assistance besides great booty which they afterwards obtained But whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling of them down was not all they aimed at If it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down of Bishops in England And in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that Pacification which they were before contented with Howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London
they sent up to some of their Friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they pretended the Articles of the said Pacification a false and scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I have heard publickly and so both parts returned to the same condition they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose But you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in Person He that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a Man that wanted not either Valour or Judgment But to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his power but in the King 's B. He was a Man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Country and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that conquered Carthage by the Valour and Conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio for General a Man valiant and wise enough but he perished in the Employment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is but a foolish superstition to hope that God has entail'd success in War upon a Name or Family B. After the Pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there and to use all the means he could otherwise but all was to no purpose for the Scotch were now resolv'd to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their Grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Councellors they could not otherwise obtain their Right but the truth is they were animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of reward and hope of plunder Some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deter them from the Expedition as hoping by the disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had formerly been accus'd to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland But I take this to have been a very uncharitable censure upon so little ground to judge so hardly of a Man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the Liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliament to meet at Westminster the 13 th day of April 1640. B. Methinks a Parliament of England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveterate dissaffection to that Nation that had always anciently taken part with their Enemies the French and which always esteemed the Glory of England for an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that neighbour Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found not the more but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary Discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometimes called them Their Brethren the Scots But in stead of taking the Kings business which was the raising of Money into their Consideration they fell upon the redressing of Grievances and especially such ways of levying Money as in the late Intermission of Parliaments the King had been forced to use such as were Ship-Money for Knighthood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the Ancient Records of the Kingdom Besides they fell upon the Actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the King 's own Command and Warrant in so much that before they were to come to the business for which they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given any as they never meant to do had come too late It is true there was mention of a Sum of Money to be given the King by way of bargain for the relinquishing of his Right to Ship-Money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore upon the 5 th of May following he dissolved it B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same Men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could What was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and of the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's Absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to a mixt Monarchy as they call'd it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Sovereignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses Besides they were loth to desert the King when he was invaded by Forreigners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Forreign Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same and being governed by one King should be thought Forreigners to one another The Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts and Laws sent unto them from the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that
they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the Common People the Priviledges of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the Contumelies of other Nations where they resided Why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united into one People A. King James at his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail But for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many Priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all naturaliz'd and have right to buy Land in England to themselves and their Heirs B. It 's true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better Right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James And was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A. I understand not the subtilty of that distinction But upon what Law is that distinction grounded Is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little Equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal priviledges And now seeing there be so very few born before King James's coming in what greater priviledge had those ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch B. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their Voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is requir'd to the Laws there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions and yet they are all equally natural Subjects to the King of France and therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Forreigners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scotch Army was drawn up to the Frontiers and ready to march into England which also they presently did giving out all the way that their March should be without damage to the Countrey and that their Errand was only to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had receiv'd from such of the Court whose Counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above New-Castle where they found some little opposition from a Party of the King's Army sent thither to stop them whom the Scotch easily master'd and as soon as they were over seiz'd upon New-Castle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon The Conclusion was that all should be referr'd to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster on the third of November following being in the same Year 1640. and thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No the Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintain'd at the King's charge and the whole Controversie to be decided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of reverence to him in the Hearts of the People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it believ'd that the King made War first upon the Parliament and besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him Therefore they resolv'd to proceed with him like skilful Hunters first to single him out by Men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open Field and then in case he should but seem to turn head to call that a making of War against the Parliament And first they call'd in question such as had either preached or written in defence of any of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves Whereupon some few Preachers and Writers were imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they imprisoned some and some went beyond Sea And whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Books and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other crimes of high nature had therefore been censured by the King's Council in the Star-Chamber and imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the People would take it for their persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at liberty which was accordingly done with great applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the King 's Right to Ship-Money B. Ship-Money what 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritime or not for the building and furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaim'd against it as an oppression and one of their Members that had been taxed but 20 s. mark the oppression a Parliament-man of 500 l. a year Land taxed at 20 s. they were forced to bring it to a Tryal at Law he refusing payment and he was cast Again when all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their Opinions concerning the Legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were afrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute-Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the same with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other Men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their ground for
this pretence of immunity from contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and governing it upon any person whatsoever there is very little equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Sovereign not he theirs And as for the Common Law contained in Reports they have no force but what the King gives them Besides it were more unreasonable that a corrupt or foolish Judge his unjust Sentence should by any time how long soever obtain the Authority and Force of a Law But amongst the Statute Laws there is one called Magna Charta or the Great Charter of the Liberties of English-men in which there is one Article wherein a King heretofore hath granted That no Man shall be distrained that is have his Goods taken from him otherwise than by the Law of the Land B. Is not that a sufficient ground for their purpose A. No that leaves us in the same doubt which you think it clears for where was that Law of the Land then Did they mean another Magna Charta that was made by some King more ancient yet No that Statute was made not to exempt any Man from payments to the Publick but for securing of every Man from such as abused the King's Power by surreptitious obtaining the King's Warrants to the oppressing of those against whom he had any Suit in Law but it was conducing to the ends of some rebellious Spirits in this Parliament to have it interpreted in the wrong sense and suitable enough to the understanding of the rest or most part of them to let it pass B. You make the Members of that Parliament very simple Men and yet the People chose them for the wisest of the Land A. If Craft be wisdom they were wise enough but wise as I define it is he that knows how to bring his business to pass without the assistance of knavery and ignoble shifts by the sole strength of his good contrivance A Fool may win from a better Gamester by the advantage of false Dice and packing of Cards B. According to your definition there be few wise Men now adays such Wisdom is a kind of Gallantry that few are brought up to and most think folly Fine Cloaths Great Feathers Civility towards Men that will not swallow Injuries and Injury towards them that will is the present Gallantry but when the Parliament afterwards having gotten the power into their hands levied Money for their own use what said the People to that A. What else but that it was legal and to be paid as being imposed by consent of Parliaments B. I have heard often that they ought to pay what was imposed by consent of Parliaments to the use of the King but to their own use never before I see by this it is easier to gull the Multitude than any one man amongst them for what one man that has not his natural Judgment deprav'd by accident could be so easily cozened in a matter that concerns his purse had he not been passionately carried away by the rest to change of Government or rather to a Liberty of every one to govern himself A. Judge then what kind of men such a multitude of ignorant People were like to elect for their Burgesses and Knights of Shires B. I can make no other Judgment but that they who were then elected were just such as had been elected for former Parliaments and as are like to be elected for Parliaments to come for the Common People have been and always will be ignorant of their duty to the Publick as never meditating any thing but their particular Interest in other things following their immediate Leaders which are either the Preachers or the most potent of the Gentlemen that dwell amongst them as common Soldiers for the most part follow their immediate Captains if they like them if you think the late miseries have made them wiser that will quickly be forgot and then we shall be no wiser than we were A. Why may not men be taught their duty that is the Science of just and unjust as divers other Sciences have been taught from true Principles and evident Demonstration and much more easily than any of those Preachers and Democratical Gentlemen could teach Rebellion and Treason B. But who can teach what none have learn'd Or if any man hath been so singular as to have studied the Science of Justice and Equity how can he teach it safely when it is against the Interest of those that are in possession of the Power to hurt him A. The Rules of Just and Unjust sufficiently demonstrated and from Principles evident to the meanest capacity have not been wanting and notwithstanding the obscurity of their Author have shined not only in this but also in Forreign Countries to men of good education but they are few in respect of the rest of men whereof many cannot read many though they can have no leisure and of them that have leisure the greatest part have their minds wholly employed and taken up by their private businesses or pleasures So that it is impossible that the Multitude should ever learn their duty but from the Pulpit and upon Holy-days but then and from thence it is that they learned their disobedience And therefore the Light of that Doctrine has been hitherto covered and kept under here by a cloud of Adversaries which no private man's Reputation can break through without the Authority of the Universities but out of the Universities came all those Preachers that taught the contrary The Universities have been to this Nation as the Wooden Horse was to the Trojans B. Can you tell me why and when the Universities here and in other places first began A. It seems for the time they began in the Reign of the Emperor Charles the Great before which time I doubt not but that there were many Grammar Schools for the Latin Tongue which was the natural Language of the Roman Church but for Universities that is to say Schools for the Sciences in general and especially for Divinity it is manifest that the Institution of them was recommended by the Pope's Letter to the Emperor Charles the Great and recommended farther by a Council held in his time I think at Chalon sur Saone and not long after was erected an University at Paris and the Colledge call'd Vniversity-Colledge at Oxford And so by degrees several Bishops Noble-men and Rich-men and some Kings and Queens contributing thereunto the Universities obtained at last their present splendor B. But what was the Pope's design in it A. What other design was he like to have but what you heard before the advancement of his own Authority in the Countries where the Universities were erected There they learned to dispute for him and with unintelligible distinctions to blind mens Eyes whilst they incroached upon the Right of Kings and it was an evident Argument of that Design
some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's Party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such a one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading The Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way and yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them which were the most diligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tryed by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches which are his Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgement of him in his Essence and his Attributes and in the believing of his Word His Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture receiv'd for Canonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it receiv'd by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal Party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to Gods Will. Did any of them nay did any man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandements which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damn'd And for their preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to Gods revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not disobedience but error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisie hath this great Prerogative above other sins that it cannot be accus'd A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty as well I think as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have God's House free from Profanation To have Tithes duly paid and Offerings accepted To have the Sabbath-day kept holy the Word preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duly administred But is not keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to the Honour of God If it be the Presbyterians fail in that A. Why so They kept some Holy-days and they had Fasts amongst themselves though not upon the same days that the Church ordains but when they thought fit as when it pleased God to give the King any notable Victory and they govern'd themselves in this Point by the Holy Scripture as they pretend to believe and who can prove they do not believe so B. Let us pass over all other Duties and come to that Duty which we owe to the King and consider whether the Doctrine taught by those Divines which adhered to the King be such in that Point as may justifie the Presbyterians that incited the People to Rebellion for that 's the thing you call in question Concerning our Duty to our Rulers he hath these words An Obedience we must pay either active or passive the active in the case of all lawful Commands that is whenever the Magistrate commands something which is not contrary to some Command of God we are then bound to act according to that Command of the Magistrate to do the things he requires but when he enjoyns any thing contrary to what God hath commanded we are not then to pay him this Active Obedience we may nay we must refuse thus to act yet here we must be very well assur'd that the thing is so contrary and not pretend Conscience for a Cloak of stubbornness we are in that Case to obey God rather than Men but even this is a season for the Passive Obedience we must patiently suffer what he inflicts on us for such refusal and not to secure our selves rise up against him B. What is there in this to give colour to the late Rebellion A. They will say they did it in obedience to God in as much as they did believe it was according to the Scripture out of which they will bring Examples perhaps of David and his adherents that resisted King Saul and of the Prophets afterward that vehemently from time to time preached against the Idolatrous Kings of Israel and Judah Saul was their lawful King and yet they paid him neither Active nor Passive Obedience for they did put themselves into a posture of defence against him though David himself spared his Person and so did the Presbyterians put into their Commissions to their General that they should spare the King's Person Besides you cannot doubt but that they who in the Pulpit did animate the People to take Arms in defence of the then Parliament alleadged Scripture that is the Word of God for it If it be lawful then for Subjects to resist the King when he commands any thing that is against the Scripture that is contrary to the Command of God and to be Judge of the meaning of the Scripture it is impossible that the Life of any King or the Peace of any Christian Kingdom can be long secure It is this Doctrine that divides a Kingdom within it self whatsoever the Men be Loyal or Rebels that write or preach it publickly And thus you see that if those seditious Ministers be tryed by this Doctrine they will come off well enough B. I see it and wonder at People that having never spoken with God Almighty nor knowing one more than another what he hath said when the Laws and the Preacher disagree should so keenly follow the Minister for the most part an Ignorant though a ready Tongu'd Scholar rather than the Laws that were made by the King with the consent of the Peers and the Commons of the Land A. Let us examine his words a little nearer First Concerning Passive Obedience When a Thief hath broken the Laws and according to the Law is therefore executed can any man understand that this suffering of his is an obedience to the Law Every Law is a Command to do or to forbear neither of these is fulfilled by suffering If any Suffering can be called Obedience it must be such as is voluntary for no involuntary Action can be counted a submission to the Law He that means that his suffering should be taken for obedience must not only not resist but also not fly nor hide himself to avoid his punishment and who is there amongst them that discourses of Passive Obedience when his Life is in extream danger
are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty to do so They see not that the safety of the Common-wealth and consequently their own depends upon their doing it Every man by nature without discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself from his obedience He reads that Covetousness is the root of all evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is seal'd up in Greek and Latin and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers But they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot choose but by their reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and Quality are followed by their inferior Neighbours that look more upon the Example of those Men whom they reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease than upon Precepts and Laws B. These Men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others These are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places which teach them their Duty fall to scanning only of the Mysteries of Religion such as are How it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but One How the Deity could be made Flesh How that Flesh could be really present in many places at once Where 's the Place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines Whether the Will of Man be free or governed by the Will of God Whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education By whom Christ now speaks to us Whether by the King or by the Clergy or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like Points are the study of the Curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of Men whom the Scripture had taught belief in Christ Love towards God Obedience to the King and sobriety of behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scripture to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their Interpretation for the Word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know is so easie as not to need Interpretation Whatsoever is more does them no good But in case any of those unnecessary Doctrines shall be authorized by the Laws of the King or other State I say it is the Duty of every Subject not to speak against them in as much as it is every man's Duty to obey Him or Them that have the Sovereign Power and the Wisdom of all such Powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to Sedition or Disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had their breeding in the Universities for such curious Questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those Politick Questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastick Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the Works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their Disputation against the necessary Power of their Sovereigns Therefore I despair of any lasting Peace amongst our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their Studies to the setling of it that is to the teaching of absolute Obedience to the Laws of the King and to his Publick Edicts under the Great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid Reason back'd with the Authority of so many Learned Men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any Victory can do over the Rebels but I am afraid that 't is impossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business A. Seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all Points for the King's Power presently after that King Henry the 8 th was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are governed and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferior Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their Spiritual Power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by a successive Imposition of Hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the Hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off For though they were content that the Divine Right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nouns and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters
They sate down in November and now it was May in this space of time which is but half a year they won from the King the adherence which was due to him from his People they drave his faithfulest Servants from him beheaded the Earl of Strafford imprison'd the Arch-bishop of Canterbury obtain'd a Triennial Parliament after their own Dissolution and a continuance of their own sitting as long as they listed which last amounted to a total Extinction of the King 's Right in case that such a Grant were valid which I think it is not unless the Sovereignty it self be in plain terms renounced which it was not But what Money by way of Subsidy or otherwise did they grant the King in recompence of all these his large Concessions A. None at all but often promised they would make him the most glorious King that ever was in England which were words that passed well enough for well meaning with the Common People B. But the Parliament was contented now for I cannot imagine what they should desire more from the King than he had now granted them A. Yes they desir'd the whole and absolute Sovereignty and to change the Monarchical Government into an Oligarchie that is to say to make the Parliament consisting of a few Lords and about 400 Commoners absolute in the Sovereignty for the present and shortly after to lay the House of Lords aside for this was the Design of the Presbyterian Ministers who taking themselves to be by Divine Right the only lawful Governors of the Church endeavoured to bring the same form of Government into the Civil State And as the Spiritual Laws were to be made by their Synods so the Civil Laws should be made by the House of Commons who as they thought would no less be ruled by them afterwards than they formerly had been wherein they were deceived and found themselves out-gone by their own Disciples though not in Malice yet in Wit B. What followed after this A. In August following the King supposing he had now sufficiently obliged the Parliament to proceed no farther against him took a Journey into Scotland to satisfie his Subjects there as he had done here intending perhaps so to gain their good Wills that in case the Parliament here should Levy Arms against him they should not be aided by the Scots wherein he also was deceiv'd for though they seemed satisfied with what he did whereof one thing was his giving way to the abolition of Episcopacy yet afterwards they made a League with the Parliament and for Money when the King began to have the better of the Parliament invaded England in the Parliaments quarrel but this was a year or two after B. Before you go any farther I desire to know the Ground and Original of that Right which either the House of Lords or House of Commons or both together now pretend to A. It is a Question of things so long past that they are now forgotten Nor have we any thing to conjecture by but the Records of our own Nation and some small and obscure fragments of Roman Histories And for the Records seeing they are of things done only sometimes justly sometimes unjustly you can never by them know what Right they had but only what Right they pretended B. Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Ancient Authors that speak of the forms of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancestors the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Argument of Right but only Examples of Fact which by the Ambition of potent Subjects have been oftner unjust than otherwise And for those Saxons or Angles that in Ancient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of divers petty German Lords and States such as was the Grecian Army in the Trojan War without other obligation than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness Nor were those Lords for the most part the Sovereigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the Forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity when they had conquered any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof that the rest should have greater priviledges than the Common People and Soldiers amongst which priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Councel with him that hath the Sovereignty in matter of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Sovereign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the King's Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those Honours and Places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of discreet and wise Men of the Kingdom and hear their Counsel and make them Judges of all Causes that during their sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever the power at his pleasure to dissolve them The Normans also that descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this priviledge of the Lords to be of the King 's Great Councel and when they were assembled to be the Highest of the King's Courts of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only Name of Baron a Name receiv'd from the Ancient Gaules amongst whom that Name signified the King's Man or rather one of his Great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Counsel when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's Great Councel A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Councel though they were not Lords but that is nothing to the House of Commons The Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of the Reign of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the misbehaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time
of Henry the third the Lords were descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow-Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France but after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue failed Titulary only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being no longer bound to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Councel And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased but I do not find they were part of the King's Councel at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other but I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Councel about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws To choose his own Privy-Councellors To raise Money and Soldiers To defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom To make Captains in his Army To make Governours of his Castles whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8 th adjourned till the 20 th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most seditious of both Houses and which had design'd the change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up any other Government in its place and consequently left it to the chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got together a great Party with an intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle in October the 20 th where the King's Officers of the Government of that Countrey made their Residence and had effected it had it not been discovered the night before The manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole Story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect and provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England for was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in general the Irish Nation did hate the name of Subjection to England Or would longer be quiet than they feared an Army out of England to chastise them What better time then could they take for their Rebellion than this wherein they were encouraged not only by our weakness caused by this division between the King and his Parliament but also by the Example of the Presbyterians both of the Scotch and English Nation But what did the Parliament do upon this occasion in the King's absence A. Nothing but consider what use they might make of it to their own ends partly by imputing it to the King 's evil Counsellors and partly by occasion thereof to demand of the King the power of pressing and ordering of Soldiers which power whosoever has has also without doubt the whole Sovereignty B. When came the King back A. He came back the 25 th of November and was welcomed with the Acclamations of the Common People as much as if he had been the most beloved of all the Kings that were before him but found not a Reception by the Parliament answerable to it They presently began to pick new quarrels against him out of every thing he said to them December the second the King called together both Houses of Parliament and then did only recommend unto them the raising of Succors for Ireland B. What quarrel could they pick out of that A. None but in order thereto as they may pretend they had a Bill in agitation to assert the Power of Levying and Pressing Soldiers to the two Houses of the Lords and Commons which was as much as to take from the King the Power of the Militia which is in effect the whole Sovereign Power for he that hath the power of Levying and Commanding of the Soldiers has all other Rights of Sovereignty which he shall please to claim The King hearing of it called the Houses of Parliament together again on December the 14 th and then pressed again the business of Ireland as there was need for all this while the Irish were murdering of the English in Ireland and strengthening themselves against the Forces they expected to come out of England and withal told them he took notice of the Bill in agitation for pressing of Soldiers and that he was contented it should pass with a Salvo Jure both for him and them because the present time was unseasonable to dispute it in B. What was there unreasonable in this A. Nothing What 's unreasonable is one question what they quarrel'd at is another They quarrel'd at this That his Majesty took notice of the Bill while it was in debate in the House of Lords before it was presented to him in the course of Parliament and also that he shewed himself displeas'd with those that propounded the said Bill both which they declared to be against the Priviledges of Parliament and petitioned the King to give them reparation against those by whose evil Counsel he was induced to it that they might receive condign punishment B. This was cruel proceeding Do not the Kings of England use to sit in the Lords House when they please And was not this Bill in debate then in the House of Lords It is a strange thing that a Man should be lawfully in the company of Men where he must needs hear and see what they say and do and yet must not take notice of it so much as to the same company for though the King was not present at the Debate it self yet it was lawful for any of the Lords to make him acquainted with it Any one of the House of Commons though not present at a Proposition or Debate in
when the Parliament was ended and the favour shewed to Papists by Secretary Windebank and others B. All this will go current with common People for misgovernment and for faults of the King 's though some of them were misfortunes and both the misfortunes and the misgovernment if any were were the faults of the Parliament who by denying to give him Money did both frustrate his Attempts abroad and put him upon those extraordinary ways which they call Illegal of raising Money at home A. You see what a heap of evils they have raised to make a shew of ill government to the People which they second with an enumeration of the many Services they have done the King in overcoming a great many of them though not all and in divers other things and say that though they had contracted a Debt to the Scots of 2200 l. and granted six Subsidies and a Bill of Pole-Money worth six Subsidies more yet that God had so blessed the endeavours of this Parliament that the Kingdom was a gainer by it and then follows the Catalogue of those good things they had done for the King and Kingdom For the Kingdom they had done they said these things They had abolished Ship-Money They had taken away Coat and Conduct-Money and other Military Charges which they said amounted to little less than the Ship-Money That they suppress'd all Monopolies which they reckoned above a Million yearly saved by the Subject That they had quelled living Grievances meaning evil Counsellors and Actors by the death of my Lord of Strafford by the flight of the Chancellor Finch and of Secretary Windebank by the Imprisonment of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury and of Judge Bartlet and the Impeachment of other Bishops and Judges That they had pass'd a Bill for a Triennial Parliament and another for the Continuance of the present Parliament till they should think fit to dissolve themselves B. That is to say for ever if they be suffered But the sum of all these things which they had done for the Kingdom is that they had left it without Government without Strength without Money without Law and without good Councel A. They reckoned also putting down of the High-Commission and the abating of the power of the Council-Table and of the Bishops and their Courts The taking away of unnecessary Ceremonies in Religion Removing of Ministers from their Livings that were not of their Faction and putting in such as were B. All this was but their own and not the Kingdoms Business A. The good they had done the King was first they said The giving of 25000 l. a month for the relief of the Northern Counties B. What need of relief had the Northern more than the rest of the Counties of England A Yes in the Northern Counties were quartered the Scotch Army which the Parliament called in to oppose the King and consequently their Quarter was to be discharged B. True but by the Parliament that call'd them in A. But they say no and that this Money was given to the King because he is bound to protect his Subjects B. He is no farther bound to that than they to give him Money wherewithal to do it This is very great impudence to raise an Army against the King and with that Army to oppress their Fellow-Subjects and then require that the King should relieve them that is to say be at the charge of paying the Army that was raised to fight against him A. Nay farther They put to the King's Account the 300000 l. given to the Scots without which they would not have invaded England besides many other things that I now remember not B. I did not think there had been so great impudence and villany in mankind A. You have not observ'd the World long enough to see all that 's ill Such was their Remonstrance as I have told you With it they sent a Petition containing three Points 1. That his Majesty would deprive the Bishops of their Votes in Parliament and remove such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as they had brought in 2. That he would remove from his Council all such as should promote the Peoples Grievances and employ in his Great and Publick Affairs such as the Parliament should confide in 3. That he would not give away the Lands Escheated to the Crown by the Rebellion in Ireland B. This last Point methinks was not wisely put in at this time it should have been reserv'd till they had subdued the Rebels against whom there were yet no Forces sent over 'T is like selling the Lyons Skin before they had kill'd him But what answer was made to the other two Propositions A. What answer should be made but a Denial About the same time the King himself exhibited Articles against six Persons of the Parliament five whereof were of the House of Commons and one of the House of Lords accusing them of High Treason and upon the 4 th of January went himself to the House of Commons to demand those five of them but private notice having been given by some Treacherous Person about the King they had absented themselves and by that means frustrated his Majesties Intentions and after he was gone the House making a hainous matter of it and a high breach of their Priviledges adjourned themselves into London there to sit as a General Committee pretending they were not safe at Westminster for the King when he went to the House to demand those Persons had somewhat more attendance with him but not otherwise armed than his Servants used to be than he ordinarily had and would not be pacified though the King did afterward wave the prosecution of those persons unless he would also discover to them those that gave him Counsel to go in that manner to the Parliament House to the end they might receive condign punishment which was the word they used in stead of cruelty B. This was a harsh demand Was it not enough that the King should forbear his Enemies but also that he must betray his Friends If they thus tyrannize over the King before they have gotten the Sovereign Power into their hands how will they tyrannize over their Fellow-Subjects when they have gotten it A. So as they did B. How long staid that Committee in London A. Not above two or three days and then were brought from London to the Parliament House by Water in great triumph guarded with a tumultuous number of Armed Men there to sit in security in despite of the King and make traiterous Acts against him such and as many as they listed and under favour of these tumults to frighten away from the House of Peers all such as were not of their own Faction For at this time the Rabble was so insolent that scarce any of the Bishops durst go to the House for fear of violence upon their persons in so much as twelve of them excused themselves of coming thither and by way of Petition to the King remonstrated That they were
commend either the Divinity or the Philosophy of those Heathen People but to shew only what the reputation of those Sciences can effect among the People For their Divinity was nothing but Idolatry and their Philosophy excepting the knowledge which the Aegyptian Priests and from them the Chaldaeans had gotten by long observation and study in Astronomy Geometry and Arithmetick very little and that in great part abused in Astrology and Fortune-telling Whereas the Divinity of the Clergy in this Nation considered apart from the mixture that has been introduced by the Church of Rome and in part retained here of the babling Philosophy of Aristotle and other Greeks that has no affinity with Religion and serves only to breed disaffection dissention and finally Sedition and Civil War as we have lately found by dear experience in the differences between the Presbyterians and Episcopals is the true Religion but for these differences both Parties as they came in power not only suppressed the Tenets of one another but also whatsoever Doctrine look'd with an ill aspect upon their Interest and consequently all true Philosophy especially Civil and Moral which can never appear propitious to ambition or to an exemption from their obedience due to the Sovereign Power After the King had accused the Lord Kimbolton a Member of the Lords House and Hollis Haslerigg Hampden Pim and Stroud five Members of the Lower House of High Treason and after the Parliament had voted out the Bishops from the House of Peers they pursued especially two things in their Petitions to his Majesty The one was That the King would declare who were the persons that advised him to go as he did to the Parliament House to apprehend them and that he would leave them to the Parliament to receive condign punishment and this they did to stick upon his Majesty the dishonour of deserting his Friends and betraying them to his Enemies The other was That he would allow them a Guard out of the City of London to be commanded by the Earl of Essex for which they pretended they could not else sit in safety which pretence was nothing but an upbraiding of his Majesty for coming to Parliament better accompanied than ordinary to seize the said five seditious Members B. I see no reason in petitioning for a Guard they should determine it to the City of London in particular and the Command by name to the Earl of Essex unless they meant the King should understand it for a Guard against himself A. Their meaning was that the King should understand it so and as I verily believe they meant he should take it for an affront and the King himself understanding it so denied to grant it though he were willing if they could not otherwise be satisfied to Command such a Guard to wait upon them as he would be responsible for to God Almighty Besides this the City of London petitioned the King put upon it no doubt by some Members of the Lower House to put the Tower of London into the Hands of persons of Trust meaning such as the Parliament should approve of and to appoint a Guard for the safety of his Majesty and the Parliament This Method of bringing Petitions in a Tumultuary manner by great multitudes of clamorous people was ordinary with the House of Commons whose Ambition could never have been served by way of prayer and request without extraordinary terror After the King had waved the prosecution of the five Members but denied to make known who had advised him to come in person to the House of Commons they question'd the Attorney-General who by the King's Command had exhibited the Articles against them and voted him a breaker of the Priviledge of Parliament and no doubt had made him feel their cruelty if he had not speedily fled the Land About the end of January they made an Order of both Houses of Parliament to prevent the going over of Popish Commanders into Ireland not so much fearing that as that by this the King himself choosing his Commanders for that Service might aid himself out of Ireland against the Parliament But this was no great matter in respect of a Petition they sent his Majesty about the same time that is to say about the 27 th or 28 th of January 1641. wherein they desir'd in effect the absolute Sovereignty of England though by the name of Sovereignty they challenged it not whilst the King was living For to the end that the fears and dangers of this Kingdom might be remov'd and the mischievous designs of those who are Enemies to the peace of it might be prevented they pray That his Majesty would be pleased to put forthwith first The Tower of London 2. All other Forts 3. The whole Militia of the Kingdom into the Hands of such persons as should be recommended to him by both the Houses of Parliament And this they stile a necessary Petition B. Were there really any such fears and dangers generally conceiv'd here or did there appear any Enemies at that time with such Designs as are mentioned in the Petition A. Yes But no other fear of danger but such as any discreet and honest man might justly have of the Designs of the Parliament it self who were the greatest Enemies to the peace of the Kingdom that could possibly be 'T is also worth observing that this Petition began with these words Most Gratious Sovereign So stupid they were as not to know that he that is Master of the Militia is Master of the Kingdom and consequently is in possession of a most absolute Sovereignty The King was now at Windsor to avoid the Tumults of the Common People before the Gates of White-hall together with their clamors and affronts there The 9 th of February after he came to Hampton-Court and thence he went to Dover with the Queen and the Princess of Orange his Daughter where the Queen with the Princess of Orange embarqued for Holland but the King returned to Greenwich whence he sent for the Prince of Wales and the Duke of York and so went with them towards York B. Did the Lords joyn with the Commons in this Petition for the Militia A. It appears so by the Title but I believe they durst not but do it The House of Commons took them but for a Cypher Men of Title only without real Power Perhaps also the most of them thought that the taking of the Militia from the King would be an addition to their own power but they were very much mistaken for the House of Commons never intended they should be sharers in it B. What answer made the King to this Petition A. That when he shall know the extent of Power which is intended to be established in those persons whom they desire to be the Commanders of the Militia in the several Counties and likewise to what time it shall be limited That no Power shall be executed by his Majesty alone without the advice of Parliament then he will declare that
was courting the Gentlemen there the Committee was instigating of the Yeomanry against him To which also the Ministers did very much contribute So that the King lost his opportunity at York B. Why did not the King seize the Committee into his Hands or drive them out of Town A. I know not but I believe he knew the Parliament had a greater Party than he not only in York-shire but also in York Towards the end of April the King upon Petition of the People of York-shire to have the Magazine of Hull to remain still there for the greater security of the Northern parts thought fit to take it into his own Hands He had a little before appointed Governour of that Town the Earl of New-Castle but the Towns-men having been already corrupted by the Parliament refused to receive him but refused not to receive Sir John Hotham appointed to be Governour by the Parliament The King therefore coming before the Town guarded only by his own Servants and a few Gentlemen of the Countrey thereabouts was denied entrance by Sir John Hotham that stood upon the Wall for which Act he presently caused Sir John Hotham to be proclaimed Traitor and sent a Message to the Parliament requiring Justice to be done upon the said Hotham and that the Town and Magazine might be delivered into his hands To which the Parliament made no answer but in stead thereof published another Declaration in which they omitted nothing of their former slanders against his Majesties Government but inserted certain Propositions declarative of their own pretended Right viz. 1. That whatsoever they declare to be Law ought not to be question'd by the King 2. That no Precedents can be limits to bound their proceedings 3. That a Parliament for the publick good may dispose of any thing wherein the King or Subject hath a Right and that they without the King are this Parliament and the Judge of this publick good and that the King's Consent is not necessary 4. That no Member of either House ought to be troubled for Treason Felony or any other Crime unless the Cause be first brought before the Parliament that they may judge of the Fact and give leave to proceed if they see cause 5. That the Sovereign Power resides in both Houses and that the King ought to have no Negative Voice 6 That the Levying of Forces against the personal Commands of the King though accompanied with his presence is not Levying War against the King but the Levying of War against his Politick Person viz. his Laws c. 7. That Treason cannot be committed against his Person otherwise than as he is entrusted with the Kingdom and discharges that Trust and that they have a power to judge whether he have discharged this Trust or not 8. That they may dispose of the King when they will B. This is plain dealing and without Hypocrisie Could the City of London swallow this A. Yes and more too if need be London you know has a great Belly but no Pallat nor Tast of Right and Wrong In the Parliament Roll of Hen. 4. amongst the Articles of the Oath the King at his Coronation took there is one runs thus Concedes just as Leges Consuetudines esse tenendas promittes per te eas esse protegendas ad honorem Dei corroborandas quas vulgus elegerit Which the Parliament urged for their Legislative Authority and therefore interpret quas vulgus elegerit which the People shall choose as if the King should swear to protect and corroborate Laws before they were made whether they be good or bad whereas the words signifie no more but that he shall protect and corroborate such Laws as they have chosen that is to say the Acts of Parliament then in being And in the Records of the Exchequer it is thus Will you grant to hold and keep the Laws and rightful Customs which the Commonalty of this your Kingdom have and will you defend and uphold them c. And this was the Answer his Majesty made to that Point B. And I think this Answer very full and clear but if the words were to be interpreted in the other sense yet I see no reason why the King should be bound to swear to them for Hen. 4. came to the Crown by the Votes of a Parliament not much inferior in wickedness to this Long Parliament that deposed and murdered their Lawful King saving that it was not the Parliament it self but the Usurper that murdered King Richard the second A. About a week after in the beginning of May the Parliament sent the King another Paper which they stiled the humble Petition and Advice of both Houses containing 19 Propositions which when you shall hear you shall be able to judge what power they meant to leave to the King more than to any one of his Subjects The first of them is this 1. That the Lords and others of his Majesties Privy-Council and all great Officers of State both at home and abroad be put from their Employments and from his Council save only such as should be approved of by both Houses of Parliament and none put into their places but by approbation of the said Houses And that all Privy-Councellors take an Oath for the due execution of their places in such form as shall be agreed upon by the said Houses 2. That the great Affairs of the Kingdom be debated resolved and transacted only in Parliament and such as shall presume to do any thing to the contrary be reserved to the censure of the Parliament and such other matters of State as are proper for his Majesties Privy-Council shall be debated and concluded by such as shall from time to time be chosen for that place by both Houses of Parliament and that no publick Act concerning the Affairs of the Kingdom which are proper for his Privy-Council be esteemed valid as proceeding from the Royal Authority unless it be done by the Advice and Consent of the Major part of the Councel attested under their Hands and that the Council be not more than 25 nor less than 15 and that when a Councellors place falls void in the Interval of Parliament it shall not be supplied without the Assent of the Major part of the Council and that such choice also shall be void if the next Parliament after confirm it not 3. That the Lord High Steward of England Lord High Constable Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal Lord Treasurer Lord Privy-Seal Earl Marshal Lord Admiral Warden of the Cinque Ports Chief Governour of Ireland Chancellor of the Exchequer Master of the Wards Secretaries of State two Chief Justices and Chief Baron be always chosen with the Approbation of both Houses of Parliament and in the Intervals of Parliament by the Major part of the Privy-Council 4. That the Government of the King's Children shall be committed to such as both Houses shall approve of and in the Intervals of Parliament such as the Privy-Council
seconded by Prince Rupert who was then abroad in that Countrey carried the Place These were the chief Actions of this year 1642. wherein the King's Party had not much the worse B. But the Parliament had now a better Army in so much that if the Earl of Essex had immediately followed the King to Oxford not yet well fortified he might in all likelihood have taken it for he could not want either Men or Ammunition whereof the City of London which was wholly at the Parliaments Devotion had store enough A. I cannot judge of that but this is manifest considering the estate the King was in at his first marching from York when he had neither Money nor Men nor Arms enough to put them in hope of Victory that this year take it all together was very prosperous B. But what great folly or wickedness do you observe in the Parliaments Actions for this first year A. All that can be said against them in that Point will be excused with the pretext of War and come under one name of Rebellion saving that when they summoned any Town it was always in the name of King and Parliament the King being in the contrary Army and many times beating them from the Siege I do not see how the right of War can justifie such Impudence as that But they pretended that the King was always virtually in the two Houses of Parliament making a distinction between his Person Natural and Politick which made the Impudence the greater besides the folly of it for this was but an University quibble such as Boys make use of in maintaining in the Schools such Tenents as they cannot otherwise defend In the end of this year they solicited also the Scots to enter England with an Army to suppress the Power of the Earl of New-Castle in the North which was a plain Confession that the Parliaments Forces were at this time inferior to the King 's and most men thought that if the Earl of New-Castle had then marched Southward and joyned his Forces with the King 's that most of the Members of Parliament would have fled out of England In the beginning of 1643. the Parliament seeing the Earl of New Castle 's Power in the North grown so formidable sent to the Scots to hire them to an Invasion of England and to complement them in the mean time made a Covenant amongst themselves such as the Scots had before taken against Episcopacy and demolished Crosses and Church windows such as had in them any Images of Saints throughout all England Also in the middle of the year they made a solemn League with the Nation which was called the Solemn League and Covenant B. Are not the Scots as properly to be called Forreigners as the Irish Seeing then they persecuted the Earl of Strafford even to death for advising the King to make use of Irish Forces against the Parliament with what face could they call in a Scoth Army against the King A. The King's Party might easily here have discerned their Design to make themselves absolute Masters of the Kingdom and to dethrone the King Another great Impudence or rather a bestial incivility it was of theirs that they voted the Queen a Traitor for helping the King with some Ammunition and English Forces from Holland B. Was it possible that all this could be done and men not see that Papers and Declarations must be useless and that nothing could satisfie them but the deposing of the King and setting up of themselves in his place A. Yes very possible For who was there of them though knowing that the King had the Sovereign Power that knew the Essential Rights of Sovereignty They dreamt of a mixt Power of the King and the two Houses That it was a divided Power in which there could be no peace was above their understanding Therefore they were always urging the King to Declarations and Treaties for fear of subjecting themselves to the King in an absolute obedience which increased the hope and courage of the Rebels but did the King little good for the People either understand not or will not trouble themselves with Controversies in writing but rather by his Compliance and Messages go away with an opinion that the Parliament was likely to have the Victory in the War Besides seeing the Penners and Contrivers of these Papers were formerly Members of the Parliament and of another mind and now revolted from the Parliament because they could not bear that sway in the House which they expected men were apt to think they believed not what they writ As for Military Actions to begin at the Head Quarters Prince Rupert took Brimingiam a Garrison of the Parliaments In July after the King's Forces had a great Victory over the Parliaments near Devizes on Roundway-down where they took 2000 Prisoners four Brass Pieces of Ordnance 28 Colours and all their Baggage and shortly after Bristol was surrendred to Prince Rupert for the King and the King himself marching into the West took from the Parliament many other considerable places But this good fortune was not a little allayed by his besieging of Glocester which after it was reduced to the last gasp was relieved by the Earl of Essex whose Army was before greatly wasted but now suddenly recruited with the Train'd-Bands and Apprentices of London B. It seems not only by this but also by many Examples in History that there can hardly arise a long or dangerous Rebellion that has not some such overgrown City with an Army or two in its belly to foment it A. Nay more those great Capital Cities when Rebellion is upon pretence of Grievances must needs be of the Rebel-party because the Grievances are but Taxes to which Citizens that is Merchants whose profession is their private gain are naturally mortal Enemies their only glory being to grow excessively rich by the wisdom of buying and selling B. But they are said to be of all Callings the most beneficial to the Common-wealth by setting the poorer sort of People on work A. That is to say by making poor People sell their labour to them at their own prizes so that poor People for the most part might get a better Living by working in Bridewel than by spinning weaving and other such labour as they can do saving that by working slightly they may help themselves a little to the disgrace of our Manufacture And as most commonly they are the first Encouragers of Rebellion presuming of their strength so also are they for the most part the first to repent deceived by them that command their strength But to return to the War though the King withdrew from Glocester yet it was not to fly from but to fight with the Earl of Essex which presently after he did at Newbury where the Battle was bloody and the King had not the worst unless Cirencester be put into the Scale which the Earl of Essex had in his way a few days before surprized But in the North and the
March towards London wherein they take upon them to be Judges of the Parliament and of who are fit to be trusted with the business of the Kingdom giving them the name not of the Parliament but of the Gentlemen at Westminster For since the violence they were under July the 26 th the Army denied them to be a Lawful Parliament At the same time they sent a Letter to the Major and Aldermen of London reproaching them with those late Tumults telling them they were Enemies to the Peace Treacherous to the Parliament unable to defend either the Parliament or themselves and demanded to have the City delivered into their hands to which purpose they said they were now coming to them The General also sent out his Warrants to the Counties adjacent summoning their Trained Soldiers to joyn with them B. Were the Trained Soldiers part of the General 's Army A. No nor at all in pay nor could be without an Order of Parliament But what might an Army do after it had mastered all the Laws of the Land The Army being come to Hounsloe-Heath distant from London but ten Miles the Court of Aldermen was called to consider what to do The Captains and Soldiers of the City were willing and well provided to go forth and give them battle but a Treacherous Officer that had charge of a Work on Southwerk side had let in within the Line a small Party of the Enemies who marched as far as to the Gate of London Bridge and then the Court of Aldermen their hearts failing them submitted on these conditions To relinquish their Militia To desert the eleven Members To deliver up the Forts and Line of Communication together with the Tower of London and all Magazines and Arms therein to the Army To disband their Forces and turn out all the Reformadoes i. e. all Essex's old Soldiers To draw off their Guards from the Parliament all which was done and the Army marched triumphantly through the principal Streets of the City B. 'T is strange that the Major and Aldermen having such an Army should so quickly yield Might they not have resisted the Party of the Enemy at the Bridge with a Party of their own and the rest of the Enemies with the rest of their own A. I cannot judge of that but to me it would have been strange if they had done otherwise for I consider the most part of rich Subjects that have made themselves so by Craft and Trade as Men that never look upon any thing but their present profit and who to every thing not lying in that way are in a manner blind being amazed at the very thought of plundering If they had understood what vertue there is to preserve their Wealth in obedience to their Lawful Sovereign they would never have sided with the Parliament and so we had had no need of arming The Major and Aldermen therefore being assured by this submission to save their Goods and not sure of the same by resisting seem to me to have taken the wisest course nor was the Parliament less tame than the City for presently August the sixth the General brought the fugitive Speakers and Members to the House with a strong Guard of Soldiers and replaced the Speakers in their Chairs and for this they gave the General thanks not only there in the House but appointed also a day for a Holy Thanksgiving and not long after made him Generalissimo of all the Forces of England and Constable of the Tower but in effect all this was the advancement of Cromwel for he was the usufructuary though the property were in Sir Thomas Fairfax For the Independents immediately cast down the whole Line of Communication divide the Militia of London Westminster and Southwark which were before united displaced such Governours of Towns and Forts as were not for their turn though placed there by Ordinance of Parliament in stead of whom they put in Men of their own Party They also made the Parliament to declare null all that had passed in the Houses from July the 26 th to August the sixth and clapt in prison some of the Lords and some of the most eminent Citizens whereof the Lord Major was one B. Cromwel had power enough now to restore the King Why did he not A. His main end was to set himself in his place The Restoring of the King was but a Reserve against the Parliament which being in his Pocket he had no more need of the King who was now an Impediment to him To keep him in the Army was a trouble To let him fall into the hands of the Presbyterians had been a stop to his hopes To murder him privately besides the horror of the Act now whilst he was no more than Lieutenant-General would have made him odious without farthering his Design There was nothing better for his purpose than to let him escape from Hampton-Court where he was too near the Parliament whither he pleased beyond Sea for though Cromwel had a great Party in the Parliament House whilst they saw not his ambition to be their Master yet they would have been his Enemies as soon as that had appeared To make the King attempt an escape some of those that had him in custody by Cromwel's direction told him that the Adjutators meant to murder him and withal caused a Rumor of the same to be generally spread to the end it might that way also come to the King's Ear as it did The King therefore in a dark and rainy night his Guards being retir'd as it was thought on purpose left Hampton-Court and went to the Sea-side about Southampton where a Vessel had been bespoken to transport him but failed so that the King was forced to trust himself with Collonel Hammond then Governour of the Isle of Wight expecting perhaps some kindness from him for Dr. Hammond's sake Brother to the Collonel and his Majesties much favour'd Chaplain but it prov'd otherwise for the Collonel sent to his Masters of the Parliament to receive their Orders concerning him This going into the Isle of Wight was not likely to be any part of Cromwel's Design who neither knew whither nor which way he would go nor had Hammond known any more than other men if the Ship had come to the appointed place in due time B. If the King had escap'd into France might not the French have assisted him with Forces to recover his Kingdom and so frustrated their Designs both of Cromwel and all the King 's other Enemies A. Yes much just as they assisted his Son our present most Gracious Sovereign who two years before fled thither out of Cornwal B. 'T is methinks no great Politie in Neighbouring Princes to favour so often as they do one anothers Rebels especially when they rebel against Monarchy it self They should rather first make a League against Rebellion and afterwards if there be no remedy fight one against another Nor will that serve the turn amongst Christian Sovereigns till preaching be better
Commission from the present King hoping to do him as good Service as he had formerly done his Father but the Case was altered for the Scotch Forces were then in England in the Service of the Parliament whereas now they were in Scotland and many more for their intended Invasion newly raised Besides the Soldiers which the Marquess brought over were few and Forreigners nor did the Highlanders come in to him as he expected in so much as he was soon defeated and shortly after taken and with more spightful usage than revenge requir'd executed by the Covenanters at Edenburgh May 2. B. What good could the King expect from joyning with these men who during the Treaty discovered so much malice to him in one of his best Servants A. No doubt their Church-men being then prevalent they would have done as much to this King as the English Parliament had done to his Father if they could have gotten by it that which they foolishly aspir'd to the Government of the Nation I do not believe that the Independents were worse than the Presbyterians both the one and the other were resolv'd to destroy whatsoever should stand in the way to their Ambition but necessity made the King pass over both this and many other Indignities from them rather than suffer the pursuit of his Right in England to cool and be little better than extinguished B. Indeed I believe a Kingdom if suffered to become an old Debt will hardly ever be recover'd Besides the King was sure wheresoever the Victory lighted he could lose nothing in the War but Enemies A. About the time of Montrosse his death which was in May Cromwel was yet in Ireland and his work unfinished but finding or by his Friends advertised that his presence in the Expedition now preparing against the Scots would be necessary to his design sent to the Rump to know their pleasure concerning his return but for all that he knew or thought it was not necessary to stay for their Answer but came away and arriv'd at London the sixth of June following and was welcomed by the Rump Now had General Fairfax who was truly what he pretended to be a Presbyterian been so catechis'd by the Presbyterian Ministers here that he refus'd to fight against the Brethren in Scotland nor did the Rump nor Cromwel go about to rectifie his Conscience in that Point and thus Fairfax laying down his Commission Cromwel was now made General of all the Forces in England and Ireland which was another Step to the Sovereign Power B. Where was the King A. In Scotland newly come over He landed in the North and was honourably conducted to Edenburgh though all things were not yet well agreed on between the Scots and him for though he had yielded to as hard Conditions as the late King had yielded to in the Isle of Wight yet they had still somewhat to add till the King enduring no more departed from them towards the North again But they sent Messengers after him to pray him to return but they furnished these Messengers with strength enough to bring him back if he should have refused In fine they agreed but would not suffer either the King or any Royalist to have Command in the Army B. The sum of all is the King was there a Prisoner A. Cromwel from Barwick sends a Declaration to the Scots telling them he had no quarrel against the People of Scotland but against the Malignant Party that had brought in the King to the disturbance of the Peace between the two Nations and that he was willing either by Conference to give and receive satisfaction or to decide the Justice of the Cause by Battle To which the Scots answering declare That they will not prosecute the King's Interest before and without his acknowledgment of the sins of his House and his former ways and satisfaction given to God's People in both Kingdoms Judge by this whether the present King were not in as bad a condition here as his Father was in the hands of the Presbyterians of England B. Presbyterians are every where the same they would fain be absolute Governours of all they converse with and have nothing to plead for it but that where they Reign 't is God that Reigns and no where else but I observe one strange Demand that the King should acknowledge the sins of his House for I thought it had been certainly held by all Divines that no man was bound to acknowledge any man's sins but his own A. The King having yielded to all that the Church requir'd the Scots proceeded in their intended War Cromwel marched on to Edenburgh provoking them all he could to Battle which they declining and Provisions growing scarce in the English Army Cromwel retir'd to Dunbar despairing of success and intending by Sea or Land to get back into England And such was the Condition which this General Cromwel so much magnified for Conduct had brought his Army to that all his Glories had ended in Shame and Punishment if Fortune and the faults of his Enemies had not relieved him For as he retir'd the Scots followed him close all the way till within a Mile of Dunbar There is a ridge of Hills that from beyond Edenburgh goes winding to the Sea and crosses the High-way between Dunbar and Barwick at a Village called Copperspeith where the passage is so difficult that had the Scots sent timely thither a very few men to guard it the English could never have gotten home For the Scots kept the Hills and needed not have fought but upon great advantage and were almost two to one Cromwell's Army was at the foot of those Hills on the North side and there was a great Ditch or Channel of a Torrent between the Hills and it so that he could never have got home by Land nor without utter ruine of the Army attempted to Ship it nor have stayed where he was for want of Provisions Now Cromwel knowing the Pass was free and commanding a good Party of Horse and foot to possess it it was necessary for the Scots to let them go whom they bragged they had impounded or else to fight and therefore with the best of their Horse charged the English and made them at first to shrink a little but the English Foot coming on the Scots were put to flight and the flight of the Horse hindered the Foot from engaging who therefore fled as did also the rest of their Horse Thus the folly of the Scottish Commanders brought all their odds to an even Lay between two small and equal Parties wherein Fortune gave the Victory to the English who were not many more in number than those that were killed and taken Prisoners of the Scots and the Church lost their Canon Bag and Baggage with 10000 Arms and almost their whole Army The rest were got together by Lesly to Sterling B. This Victory happened well for the King for had the Scots been Victors the Presbyterians both here and there would
the House of Commons to shew they had not changed their Principles which after six readings in the House was voted to be printed and once a year to be read publickly in every Church B. I say again this re-establishing of the Long Parliament was no good service to the King A. Have a little patience They were re-established with two Conditions One to determine their sitting before the end of March another to send out Writs before their rising for new Elections B. That qualifies A. That brought in the King for few of this Long Parliament the Country having felt the smart of their former Service could get themselves chosen again This New Parliament began to sit April the 25 th 1660. How soon these called in the King with what Joy and Triumph he was receiv'd how earnestly his Majesty pressed the Parliament for the Act of Oblivion and how few were excepted out of it you know as well as I. B. But I have not yet observed in the Presbyterians any oblivion of their former Principles We are but returned to the state we were in at the beginning of the Sedition A. Not so for before that time though the Kings of England had the Right of the Militia in vertue of the Sovereignty and without dispute and without any particular Act of Parliament directly to that purpose yet now after this bloody dispute the next which is the present Parliament in proper and express terms hath declar'd the same to be the Right of the King only without either of his Houses of Parliament which Act is more instructive to the People than any Arguments drawn from the Title of Sovereign and consequently fitter to disarm the Ambition of all seditious Haranguers for the time to come B. I pray God it prove so Howsoever I must confess that this Parliament has done all that a Parliament can do for the security of our Peace which I think also would be enough if Preachers would take heed of instilling evil Principles into their Auditory I have seen in this Revolution a circular motion of the Sovereign Power through two Usurpers from the late King to this his Son for leaving out the Power of the Councel of Officers which was but temporary and no otherwise owned by them but in trust it moved from King Charles the First to the Long Parliament from thence to the Rump from the Rump to Oliver Cromwel and then back again from Richard Cromwel to the Rump thence to the Long Parliament and thence to King Charles the Second where long may it remain A. Amen And may he have as often as there shall be need such a General B. You have told me little of the General till now in the end but truly I think the bringing of his little Army intirely out of Scotland up to London was the greatest Stratagem that is extant in History FINIS Books lately printed for William Crooke at the Green Dragon without Temple-Bar 1682. DIVINITY SIxty one Sermons preached mostly upon publick occasions whereof five formerly Printed by A. Littleton D. D. Folio Brevis Demonstratio being the truth of Christian Religion proved by reason in Twelves p. 10 d. The primitive Institution shewing the Antiquity and usefulness of Catechizing by the Author of this Book price 12 d. A Funeral Sermon for a drown'd Man Octavo Mr. Howel's Visitation Sermon Quarto Dr. Hascard's two Sermons Quarto Mr. Maningham's Sermon Quarto A Sermon preached at the Savoy accused for Heretical French and English A modest Plea for the Clergy wherein is briefly considered the Reasons why the Clergy are so neglected by the Author of this Book Octavo H. 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D. and Chancellor of Lincoln Folio printed 1680. Historical Collection being an Account of the proceedings of the four last Parliaments of Queen Elizabeth wherein is contained the compleat Journals both of Lords and Commons of that time by Heywood Townsend Esquire Member in those Parliaments Folio printed 1680. A Chronicle of the late intestine Wars of the three Kingdoms of England Scotland and Ireland from 1639. to 1660. written by Mr. Heath since continued to 1674. by J. P. in Folio A Voyage into the Levant being a Relation of a Journey lately performed from England to Grand Cairo by Sir Henry Blunt Twelves pr. 1 s. Some years Travel into divers parts of Asia and Africa the great by Sir Tho. 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Ingratitude universally he finds fault that I do not mention Ingratitude towards God as if his Lordship knew not that an universal comprehends all the particulars When I had defined Equity universally why did he not as well blame me for not telling what that Equity is in God He is grateful to the man of whom he receives a good turn that confesseth or maketh appear he is pleased with the benefit he receiveth So also Gratitude towards God is to confess his benefits There is also in Gratitude towards men a desire to requite their Benefits so there is in our Gratitude towards God so far to requite them as to be kind to Gods Ministers which I acknowledged in makeing Sacrifices a part of natural Divine Worship and the benefit of those Sacrifices is the nourishment of Gods Ministers It appears therefore that the Bishops attention in reading my Writings was either weak in it self or weakned by prejudice J. D. From this shameful omission or preterition of the main duty of mankind a man might easily take the height of T. H. his Religion But he himself putteth it past all conjectures His principles are brim full of prodigious impiety In these four things Opinions of Ghosts Ignorance of second Causes devotion to what men fear and taking of things casual for Prognosticks consisteth the natural seed of Religion the culture and improvement whereof he referreth only to Policy Humane and Divine Politicks are but Politicks And again Mankind hath this from the conscience of their own weakness and the admiration of natural events that the most part of men believe that there is an invisible God the maker of all visible things And a little after he telleth us That Superstition proceedeth from fear without right reason and Atheisme from an opinion of reason without fear making Atheisme to be more reasonable than Superstition What is now become of that Divine Worship which natural reason did assign unto God the honour of Existence Infiniteness Incomprehensibility Unity Ubiquity What is now become of that Dictate or Precept of reason concerning Prayers Thanksgivings Oblations Sacrifices if uncertain Opinions Ignorance Fear Mistakes the conscience of our own weakness and the admiration of natural Events be the only seeds of Religion He proceedeth further That Atheisme it self though it be an erronious opinion and therefore a sin yet it ought to be numbred among the sins of imprudence or ignorance He addeth that an Atheist is punished not as a Subject is punished by his King because he did not observe Laws but as an Enemy by an Enemy because he would not accept Laws His reason is because the Atheist never submitted his will to the Will of God whom he never thought to be And he concludeth that mans obligation to obey God proceedeth from his weakness Manifestum est obligationem ad prestandum ipsi Deo obedientiam incumbere hominibus propter imbecilitatem First it is impossible that should be a sin of meer ignorance or imprudence which is directly contrary to the light of natural reason The Laws of nature need no new promulgation being imprinted naturally by God in the heart of Man The Law of nature was written in our hearts by the finger of God without our assent or rather the Law of Nature is the assent it self Then if Nature dictate to us that there is a God and that this God is to be worshipped in such and such manner it is not possible that Atheism should be a sin of meer ignorance Secondly a Rebellious Subject is still a Subject De Jure though not De Facto by right though not by deed and so the most cursed Atheist that is ought by right to be the Subject of God and ought to be punished not as a just Enemy but as a disloyal Traytor Which is confessed by himself This fourth Sin that is of those who do not by word and deed confess one God the Supreme King of Kings in the natural Kingdom of God is the Crime of High Treason for it is a denial of Divine Power or Atheism Then an Atheist is a Traytor to God and punishable as a disloyal Subject not as an Enemy Lastly it is an absurd and dishonourable assertion to make our obedience to God to depend upon our weakness because we cannot help it and not upon our gratitude because we owe our being and preservation to him Who planteth a Vineyard and eateth not of the Fruit thereof And who feedeth a Flock and eateth not of the Milk of the Flock And again Thou art worthy O Lord to receive Glory and Honour and Power for thou hast created all things and for thy pleasure they are and were created But it were much better or at least not so ill to be a down right Atheist than to make God to be such a thing as he doth and at last thrust him into the Devils Office to be the cause of all Sin T. H. Though this Bishop as I said had but a weak attention in reading and little skill in examining the force of an Argument yet he knew men and the art without troubling their judgments to win their assents by exciting their Passions One Rule of his art was to give his Reader what he would have him swallow a part by it self and in the nature of News whether true or not Knowing that the unlearned that is most men are content to believe rather than be troubled with examining Therefore a little before he put these words T. H. no friend to Religion in the Margent And in this place before he offer at any confutation he says my Principles are brim full of Prodigious Impieties And at the next Paragraph in the Margent he puts that I excuse Atheism This behaviour becomes neither a Bishop nor a Christian nor any man that pretends to good education Fear of invisible powers what is it else in savage people but the fear of somewhat they think a God What invisible power does the reason of a savage man suggest unto him but those Phantasms of his sleep or his distemper which we frequently call Ghosts and the Savages thought Gods so that the fear of a God though not of the true one to them was the beginning of Religion as the fear of the true God was the beginning of wisdom to the Jews and Christians Ignorance of second causes made men fly to some first cause the fear of which bred Devotion and Worship The ignorance of what that power might do made them observe the order of what he had done that they might guess by the like order what he was to do another time This was their Prognostication What Prodigious impiety is here How confutes he it Must it be taken for Impiety upon his bare calumny I said Superstition was fear without reason Is not the fear of a false God or fancied Daemon contrary to right reason And is not Atheism Boldness grounded on false reasoning such as is this the wicked prosper therefore there is no
Attributes And the words God and Deity are of different signification Damascene a Father of the Church expounding the Nicene Creed denies plainly that the Deity was incarnate but all true Christians hold that God was incarnate Therefore God and the Deity signifie divers things and therefore Eternal and Eternity are not the same no more than a wise man and his wisdom are the same Nor God and his justice the same thing and universally 't is false that the Attribute in the Abstract is the same with the Substance to which it is attributed Also it is universally true of God that the Attribute in the Concrete and the substance to which it is attributed is not the same thing I come now to his next Period or Paragraph wherein he would fain prove that by denying Incorporeal Substance I take away Gods Existence The words he cites here are mine To say an Angel or Spirit is an Incorporeal Substance is to say in effect there is no Angel nor Spirit at all It is true also that to say that God is an Incorporeal Substance is to say in effect there is no God at all What alledges he against it but the School-Divinity which I have already answered Scripture he can bring none because the word Incorporeal is not found in Scripture But the Bishop trusting to his Aristotelean and Scholastick Learning hath hitherto made no use of Scripture save only of these Texts Who hath planted a Vineyard and eateth not of the fruit thereof or who feedeth a flock and eateth not of the milk of the flock and Rev. 4.11 Thou art worthy O Lord to receive glory honour and power for thou hast created all things and for thy pleasure they were created thereby to prove that the right of God to govern and punish mankind is not derived from his Omnipotence Let us now see how he proves Incorporeity by his own Reason without Scripture Either God he saith is Incorporeal or Finite He knows I deny both and say he is Corporeal and Infinite against which he offers no proof but only according to his custom of disputing calls it the root of Atheism and interrogates me what real thing is left in the world if God be Incorporeal but Body and Accidents I say there is nothing left but Corporeal Substance For I have denyed as he knew that there is any reality in accidents and nevertheless maintain Gods Existence and that he is a most pure and most simple Corporeal Spirit Here his Lordship catching nothing removes to the eternity of the Trinity which these my grounds he says destroy How so I say the Trinity and the Persons thereof are that one pure simple and eternal Corporeal Spirit and why does this destroy the Trinity more than if I had called it Incorporeal He labours here and seeketh somewhat to refresh himself in the word Person by the same grounds he saith every King has as many Persons as there be Justices of Peace in his Kingdom and God Almighty hath as many Persons as there be Kings why not For I never said that all those Kings were that God and yet God giveth that name to the Kings of the earth For the signification of the word Person I shall expound it by and by in another place Here ends his Lordships School Argument now let me come with my Scripture Argument St. Paul concerning Christ Col. 2.9 saith thus In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead Bodily This place Athanasius a great and zealous Doctor in the Nicene Councel and vehement enemy of Arius the Heretick who allowed Christ to be no otherwise God then as men of excellent piety were so called expoundeth thus The fullness of the Godhead dwelleth in him Bodily Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est Realiter So there is one Father for Corporality and that God was in Christ in such manner as Body is in Body Again there were in the primitive Church a sort of Hereticks who maintained that Jesus Christ had not a true real Body but was onely a Phantasm or Spright such as the Latins called Spectra Against the head of this Sect whose name I think was Apelles Tertullian wrote a Book now extant amongst his other Works intituled De Carne Christi wherein after he had spoken of the nature of Phantasms and shewed that they had nothing of reality in them he concludeth with these words whatsoever is not Body is Nothing So here is on my side a plain Text of Scripture and two ancient and learned Fathers nor was this Doctrine of Tertullian condemned in the Council of Nice but the division of the Divine Substance into God the Father God the Son and God the holy Ghost For these words God has no parts were added for explication of the word Consubstantial at the request of the dissenting Fathers and are farther explained both in Athanasius his Creed in these words not three Gods but one God and by the constant Attribute ever since of the Individual Trinity The same words nevertheless do condemn the Anthropomorphites also For though there appeared no Christians that professed that God had an Organical Body and consequently that the Persons were three Individuals yet the Gentiles were all Anthropomorphites and there condemned by those words God has no parts And thus I have answered his accusation concerning the Eternity and Existence of the Divine Substance and made appear that in truth the question between us is whether God be a Phantasme id est an Idol of the Fancy which St. Paul saith is nothing or a Corporeal Spirit that is to say something that has Magnitude In this place I think it not amiss leaving for a little while this Theological dispute to examine the signification of those words which have occasioned so much diversity of opinion in this kind of Doctrine The word Substance in Greek Hypostasis Hypostan Hypostamenon signifie the same thing namely a Ground a Base any thing that has Existence or Subsistence in it self any thing that upholdeth that which else would fall in which sence God is properly the Hypostasis Base and Substance that upholdeth all the world having Subsistence not only in himself but from himself whereas other Substances have their subsistence only in themselves not from themselves But Metaphorically Faith is called a Substance Heb. 11.1 because it is the foundation or Base of our Hope for Faith failing our Hope falls And 2 Cor. 9.4 St. Paul having boasted of the liberal promise of the Corinthians towards the Macedonians calls that promise the ground the Hypostasis of that his boasting And Heb. 1.3 Christ is called the Image of the Substance the Hypostasis of his Father and for the proper and adequate signification of the word Hypostasis the Greek Fathers did always oppose it to Apparition or Phantasme as when a man seeth his face in the water his real face is called the Hypostasis of the phantastick face in the water So also in
concourse of natural Causes as T. H. seemeth to intimate or a fiction of the Brain without real Being cherished for advantage and politick Ends as a profitable Error howsoever dignified with the glorious title of the eternal Cause of all things T. H. To his Lordship's Question here What I leave God to be I answer I leave him to be a most pure simple invisible Spirit Corporeal By Corporeal I mean a Substance that has Magnitude and so mean all learned men Divines and others though perhaps there be some common people so rude as to call nothing Body but what they can see and feel To his second Question What real Being he can have amongst Bodies and Accidents I answer The Being of a Spirit not of a Spright If I should ask any the most subtil Distinguisher what middle nature there were between an infinitely subtil Substance and a meer Thought or Phantasm by what Name could he call it He might call it perhaps an Incorporeal Substance and so Incorporeal shall pass for a middle nature between Infinitely subtil and Nothing and be less subtil than Infinitely subtil and yet more subtil than a thought 'T is granted he says that the Nature of God is incomprehensible Doth it therefore follow that we may give to the divine Substance what negative Name we please Because he says the whole divine Substance is here and there and every where throughout the World and that the Soul of a man is here and there and every where throughout man's Body must we therefore take it for a Mystery of Christian Religion upon his or any Schoolman's word without the Scripture which calls nothing a Mystery but the Incarnation of the eternal God Or is Incorporeal a Mystery when not at all mentioned in the Bible but to the contrary 't is written That the fulness of the Deity was bodily in Christ When the nature of the thing is incomprehensible I can acquiesce in the Scripture but when the signification of words are incomprehensible I cannot acquiesce in the Authority of a Schoolman J. D. We have seen what his Principles are concerning the Deity they are full as bad or worse concerning the Trinity Hear himself A person is he that is represented as often as he is represented And therefore God who has been represented that is personated thrice may properly enough be said to be three Persons though neither the word Person nor Trinity be ascribed to him in the Bible And a little after To conclude the doctrine of the Trinity as far as can be gathered directly from the Scripture is in substance this that the God who is always one and the same was the Person represented by Moses the Person represented by his Son incarnate and the Person represented by the Apostles As represented by the Apostles the holy Spirit by which they spake is God As represented by his Son that was God and Man the Son is that God As represented by Moses and the High Priests the Father that is to say the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is that God From whence we may gather the reason why those Names Father Son and Holy Ghost in the signification of the Godhead are never used in the Old Testament For they are Persons that is they have their Names from representing which could not be till divers Persons had represented God in ruling or in directing under him Who is so bold as blind Bayard The Emblem of a little Boy attempting to lade all the Water out of the Sea with a Cockle-shell doth fit T. H. as exactly as if it had been shaped for him who thinketh to measure the profound and inscrutable Mysteries of Religion by his own silly shallow conceits What is now become of the great adorable Mystery of the blessed undivided Trinity It is shrunk into nothing Upon his grounds there was a time when there was no Trinity And we must blot these words out of our Creed The Father eternal the Son eternal and the Holy Ghost eternal And these other words out of our Bibles Let us make man after our Image Unless we mean that this was a consultation of God with Moses and the Apostles What is now become of the eternal generation of the Son of God if this Sonship did not begin until about 4000 years after the Creation were expired Upon these grounds every King hath as many Persons as there be Justices of Peace and petty Constables in his Kingdom Upon this account God Almighty hath as many Persons as there have been Soveraign Princes in the World since Adam According to this reckoning each one of us like so many Geryons may have as many Persons as we please to make Procurations Such bold presumption requireth another manner of confutation T. H. As for the words recited I confess there is a fault in the Ratiocination which nevertheless his Lordship hath not discovered but no Impiety All that he objecteth is That it followeth hereupon that there be as many Persons of a King as there be petty Constables in his Kingdom And so there are or else he cannot be obeyed But I never said that a King and every one of his Persons are the same Substance The fault I here made and saw not was this I was to prove That it is no contradiction as Lucian and Heathen Scoffers would have it to say of God he was One and Three I saw the true definition of the word Person would serve my turn in this manner God in his own Person both created the World and instituted a Church in Israel using therein the Ministry of Moses the same God in the Person of his Son God and Man redeemed the same World and the same Church the same God in the Person of the Holy Ghost sanctified the same Church and all the faithful men in the World Is not this a clear proof that it is no contradiction to say that God is three Persons and one Substance And doth not the Church distinguish the Persons in the same manner See the words of our Catechism Quest. What dost thou chiefly learn in these Articles of thy Belief Answ. First I learn to believe in God the Father that hath made me and all the World Secondly In God the Son who hath redeemed me and all Mankind Thirdly In God the Holy Ghost that hath sanctified me and all the elect people of God But at what time was the Church sanctified Was it not on the day of Pentecost in the descending of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles His Lordship all this while hath catched nothing 'T is I that catched my self for saying instead of By the Ministry of Moses in the Person of Moses But this Error I no sooner saw then I no less publickly corrected then I had committed it in my Leviathan converted into Latin which by this time I think is printed beyond the Seas with this alteration and also with the omission of some such passages as Strangers are not concerned in And I