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A72176 A dialogue bewteene a papist and Protestant applied to the capacity of the vnlearned. Made by G. Gifford, preacher in the towne of Maldon. Seene and allowed according to the order appointed. Gifford, George, d. 1620. 1599 (1599) STC 11849.5; ESTC S125231 92,498 190

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that you doe Among these ye dare be bolde to reason the matter to the full But this I say vnto ye let the diuell bring his note booke with him let the Pope and all his prelates vtter al the skill they can yet the word of God shall still be able to beate them downe in this matter to proue that subiects incurre damnation when they rebell against princes which are the ministers of GOD. As for the examples which ye bring I will shew how they doe not proue that which you alleage them for And then I will let ye see how it is to be proued by the law of God that subiects haue no such power against their princes but that euery priuate man doth very horribly rebell against the Lord God which rebelleth against the powers set vp by God Pa. Howsoeuer yee may seeme to dally with those examples which I haue alleaged yet sure I am they proue that which I doe alleage them for both that it is lawful to kil wicked princes also by colourable dealing for we haue example of the one in Ehud and of the other also in Iehoiada Pro. I will maintaine that which I haue said and shew that they doe not make for that which ye cite them for It is set forth in the Iudges that Israel had done euill in the sight of the Lord and he made Eglon king of the Moabites to preuaile against them to bring them into seruitude When the children of Israel cried vnto the Lord he raised vnto them a deliuerer euen Ehud Afterward it is set foorth how he came went with a present to Eglon desiring to speake with him alone and so slew him Consider well in this storie first how Eglon was an vniust vsurper Iudg. 3. oppressing Israel like a cruell tyrant where he had no right Secondly Ehud is no priuate man but raised vp by the Lord to be their deliuerer Wherefore he had authoritie from God to put downe Eglon euē as wel as a lawful king hath right to fight against such as inuade his land and to kil thē Lastly where Ehud did it colourably we may not draw it into an exāple because it was done by an extraordinary spirit which the pope cannot giue to other because he hath him not himself If he could giue to a priuate man that spirit which Ehud had to warrāt him thē were it somwhat As for the example of Athaliah the mother of king Achasia ● King 11. after she saw her son was dead did arise murder al the kings séed or the blood royal and so vsurped the kingdome she was neither lawful Quéene nor yet to be suffred to liue because she had cōmitted so horrible and cruel murder Wherfore Iehoiada in whose custody the yong king was secretly kept whē he brought him forth to be crowned did not by his owne right set vp a king whō it pleased him but was an helpe to bring the yong king to his right to put downe the wicked murderer vsurper This now maketh nothing at all for the pope whē he taketh vpon him power to depose kings at his pleasure and to set vp whom he shall thinke good Pa. I see well a man cannot bring you to see the power which the prince of the Apostles had and now his successor hath for to depose princes What should a man contend with one which doth not care what he denieth Pro. Christ Iesus whē he was desired by one that he would cōmaund his brother to deuide the land answered Luk. 12. Man who made me a iudge or a deuider Wherby he doth euidently shew that he had no ciuil authority no not in the least causes for els hee would not haue said who made me a iudge much lesse he had authoritie in the highest matters as to depose kings And for this cause when Pilate did aske him if hée were a king he did answer Iohn 18. my kingdom is not of this world likewise he did testifie his subiection to the Emperor Matth. 17. when he Peter did pay tribute How thē doth it come to passe that the pope shuld chalenge to haue that because he is M. vicar which neither Christ nor Peter had No he hath it not that way but because he is the man of sin which hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God Moreouer what sayth Christ to his Apostles The kings of the nations rule ouer them Matth. 10. and they that are great exercise authoritie ouer them but it shall not be so among you I pray ye sir if the Apostles might not be as kings princes how had Peter this power to be king of kings or how cā a priest in Italie because as he saith he is the successor of Peter haue this high dignitie to be so farre aboue kings Ye must néeds confesse vnlesse ye will be wilful that the Pope can haue no such power neither from Peter nor Christ they doe both renounce him Then I reason thus as I said before Princes are set vp by God he hath made them his substitutes here on earth he hath not alone giuen them the seate and the sword but also hee hath clothed them with glorie put vpon them as it were of his owne robes when he calleth them Gods We are cōmanded to be subiect to honor and obey not to resist vnder paine of damnation If they command any thing which is disagréeing to Gods will they haue not that power ouer our conscience wee must obey God rather then man Neuerthelesse we are stil subiects to that power which they haue receiued from God And being but priuate men we must say with Dauid God forbid that I should lay my hand vpō my master the king the Lords annointed I say therefore that your Iesuites or whosoeuer fauour them which know their practises are traytors before God and man because they dare lift vp their hand against their soueraigne prince placed in the throne by the high God and subiect to no creature in earth I say therefore let all men take héede of your cursed and damnable waies Let all men sée that your kingdome is not of God which ye vpholde by treasons periuries lyes murders and all kind of euill meanes Pa. All is nought of our side and all good of yours Ye are so malicious that whatsoeuer we do ye condēne it your charity doth shew what ye are Pro. We must néeds say all that is nought which God saith is so I confesse our charitie and yours are not al one for the charitie of you papists is a burning loue Ye can both loue a man and cut his throte also The Lord defend his people from such Vipers which sting to death when they be gentlest of all But Idolatrie is alwaies cruell cannot be maintained but with diuelish and bloody mindes Pa. I know ye doe account vs to be Idolaters and so ye do call vs but we are as far from it as you be
Church all the Bishops for that space or at least the most of them were godly men some of them suffred martyrdome As for the other matter which is the fall of Antichrist by the breath of the Lords mouth it is a marueilous cléere testimony which wee may vse to proue the pope to be Antichrist What I pray ye is the breath of the Lords mouth but the gospel preached by what other meanes hath this beast bin ouerthrowen when he had gotten al the kings in subiection and sworne vnto him when not one durst mooue warre against him but sayd who is able to warre with the beast how hath the Lord brought him downe but by the Gospel And looke in the Reu. 14. Reuel 14. There he saith he saw an Angel flying in the midst of heauē hauing an euerlasting Gospel to preach to them that dwel vpon the earth to euery nation tribe tongue and people saying with a loude voice Feare God giue glory to him c. And by by it followeth that another Angell followed saying She is fallē she is fallen Babylon the great citie c. Is it not manifest by this that whē the preachers should publish the Gospel for that Angel doth signifie the ministers of the Gospel whom he doth call Angels in the 1. chap. Babylon should be cast downe his kingdom stood by worshipping of creatures therfore whē the Gospel doth wil men to feare God and to giue glory to him and not to worship creatures straightway he cōmeth down I would wish all men to consider this Pa. Do you make account that the pope is fallē or can ye say that he is fallen because a number are fallen from him They are fallen and not he I hope in God to see him set vp againe If ye haue no better matter then this to shew his fal it is no matter Pro. I cannot tell what yee count to bee fallen sure I am of this his credite is marueilously cracked He that had knowen him 60. yeres agone and should looke vpon him now would say he were nothing the man he was for he hath bin in a sore cōsumption none of all his phisitions can tel which way to cure him Then he could shoote out thunderbolts ouer a great part of the world and kings would quake at them now euery man dare come within the noise of the crack feare no danger at al. We must not think that he should be vtterly destroyed at once for the contrary is plainely to be gathered out of the Reuelat. Reade the 16. Reuel 26. chap. ye shal find thus The fift Angel powred forth his vial vpon the throne of the beast and his kingdome was darkened they did gnaw their tongues for sorrow Here ye sée a beginning which doth fret at the guts and cause ye to bite for anger Then it followeth that the sixt Angel powred foorth his viall vpon the great riuer Euphrates c. Yet the kingdome of the beast is not vtterly cast downe although his munition bee throwen downe For it doth by and by follow I sawe thrée vncleane spirits like vnto frogs comming out of the mouth of the dragon out of the mouth of the beast out of the mouth of the false prophet then he saith they are the spirits of deuils working wōders which go vnto the kings of the earth to moue thē to battel Surely I see no cause why we may not take your Iesuits to be of these frogs do not they go forth into kingdoms to remoue rebellions wars is it not to hold vp the beast that by al such wicked diuelish means as there can be no worse Pa. The Iesuites be holy men and do no more but that which is their duetie by the appoyntment of their great shepheard They labour to vpholde Peters chayre and the trueth and therefore they doe it not by any vnlawfull meanes much lesse by such wicked diuelish meanes as you do charge them I will not stand to reason with ye about those places which ye apply against the pope I doubt not but they may be answered wel enough with silēce Pro. The Iesuites must néeds be holy men or else the Iebusites could not for they haue almost as many letters in their name as they had I suppose in déed that they do all at the appointment of their shepheard for from whence should we look for such holy-déeds but from so holy a father They labour to vpholde Peters chayre and to throw downe Paules doctrine Trueth in déed is vpholden by trueth and néedeth no falsehoode to help her which is a most manifest argumēt that you haue not the truth because as I sayd ye do vphold it by all wicked and diuelish meanes Pa. A man would suppose to heare you speake generally that yee had great matters but when yee come to make good in particular then there is nothing Ye are to be likened to an emptie barrell which if a man knocke giueth a lustie sound but pull out the spigot and there commeth not forth one drop What are those wicked and diuelish meanes shew them Pro. I perceiue you will both knocke and pull out the tap also and néeds I must by broching somewhat let ye sée your want of skill which did not knocke néere enough to the bottome I pray ye tell me are lies and forgeries diuelish Pa. No man doth denie but they are can yee charge the Catholikes with any if there be any thing which is not in all points true ye must not by and by condemne it when as it is to a good ende as namely to keepe the people in deuotion in awe Pro. True it is when ye say your forgeries and lies which are out of all number were to kéepe the people in awe and to terrifie them so hold them in a foolish blind deuotion This ye did when your kingdome stoode let anie impudent papist in the world denie the dunghill of grosse lies in the legend and festiuall some other bookes of yours Very childrē may laugh to heare them if I should reckon them or studie to reckon them I néede no other penance inioyned me But of thousands a few as these when the diuell came to tempt S. Dunston he held the diuell by the nose with a hot paire of tongs caused him to rore crie out it séemeth it was some yong diuel which had a tēder nose A rich man which neuer had done good déed in his life but only in anger did throw a loafe at a poore mans head when he died the diuell came for his soule because he had done neuer a good déede on the other side our Lady she claymed the soule because he had giuen a loafe to a poore man the diuel he replied that it was no good déed because he did it not of deuotion for thē he must haue béen saued In fine the matter was so hard to iudge whose he was that he was sent againe