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A15978 [A notable discourse, plainelye and truely discussing, who are the right ministers of the Catholike Church written against Calvin and his disciples, ... with an offer made by a Catholike to be a learned Protestant ... .]; Marques de la vraye église catholique. English Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566.; Rishton, Edward, 1550-1586, attributed name. aut; Allen, William, 1532-1594. 1575 (1575) STC 274; ESTC S112318 85,201 271

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He doeth not regarde whether they doo acquite their charge or no for the obedience of the inferiours is not limitted by the duty of the superiours All power doth come of God sayth the Apostle and he that resisteth that power doth resiste the ordinance of God and they that doo with say it acquire for them selues dānation for euer He doth make no distinction of persons whether it be a Magistrate Ecclesiastical or temporal whether it be a king or a Pope a Bishop or a Lorde he doth talke generally of al powers that are established by God to make vs liue in peace tranquilitie God had not chosen of his good wil Caesar the Emperour of Rome to be king of Ierusalē as he did choose Saul Dauid Salomon and the rest for of his owne ambition and vnsaciable cupiditie he had vsurped the kingdome apperteyning to the house of Dauid yet our Sauiour did commaund that they should pay him tribute Math. 22. The whiche commaundement he him selfe did fulfyl to teache others obedience God did like wise permit that the wicked king Nabuchodonozor shuld destroy the kingdome of Hierusalem to punishe the wickednes of those that dwelt in it And although he had inuaded the kingdome of Iuda to the which he had no title nor right yet doth god protest that he gaue it him and he wylleth and doth commaund that they should obey him euen as yf he were the best prince of the world Beholde sayth God by the Prophet Ieremie Cap. 27. you shal tel your Lordes that I make the earth the men and the beastes that walke on the face of the earth through my great strength and mightie arme and I haue geuen it to whom it pleaseth me And so nowe I haue geuen al these Lands and countreys to Nabuchodonozor my seruant king of Babylon Besides this I haue geuen him the beastes and the feelds to serue him his sonne and his sons son vntill the time of his earth come also of him many people and great kinges shal com and shal ordein that the kingdome or the people that shall not serue Nabuchodonozor kinge of Babilon I will visite that people saith the lord with the sworde pestilēce and hunger vntill that I consume them in his handes etc. But if you my masters the newe reformers of the Gospell had ben in those dayes what would haue bridled your burning zeale Coulde ye not with a litle better cause report of Nabuchodonozor that that ye report of the Pope for who is that Nabuchodonozor that wee shoulde submit our selues vnto him He is not a king he is not a Tiraunt he is not an Emperoure but a Robber a Cutthrote more cruell then any kinde of wilde beaste Is it not by him that the Prophetes haue represented the spoyler of nations for God when he woulde cause Esaye to talke of the fall of Lucifer he doeth discrye it vnder the person of Nabuchodonozor then howe will you haue vs to submitte our selues to be subiect vnto him whom God doeth liken not onelye to a deuill but to the Captayne of all the deuilles of hell Manye causes doo perswade vs not to obey him Firste his wicked and abhominable life Secondlye our religion for we beleeue in God that created heauen and earth but as for him he is more then a woorshipper of Idoles for he is one that called him selfe a god Thirdelye he is not of the line of Dauid by whom God hadde promised to establishe his Kingedome for he was a straunger and suche a one as got into the kingdome by force making him selfe a king not by righteous election but by violent compulsion so that considering all these things ye might well according to your zeale haue found fault with his raigne but god would haue stopped your mouthes saying as I haue written aboue I haue created al things and I giue them to whom it pleaseth me Or as he saith in Iob It is I that cause Hypocrites to reigne to punish the sinnes of the people Or as he sayth in the. 4. of Daniel I haue the preheminence ouer the kingdomes of men and I geue thē to whom it pleaseth me And he that speaketh agaynst him that is put in authoritie although he be as euyl as Nabuchodonozor he shal perishe thorough the sworde famine or pestilence or that that is worse through eternall death These are the very wordes that god spake by the Prophet and therfore sayth Christ Come vnto me and learne in my schole for I am humble and mylde of hart I haue obeyed Pylate and Annas and Cayphas I haue suffered the sentence of death and haue bene nayled betweene two theeues and I toke it paciently for your sakes Learne of me to be my disciples in the schoole of humilitie and you shal find rest in your spirites The which true rest in deede is for euery man to examine diligently his owne conscience and to commit to God the consciences of his Superiours ¶ The .17 Chapter ANy man may easilye perceaue by this discourse that you haue no great reason in saying that that you say much lesse to doo that that you preache I meane to beginne the reformation of the Church by the way of force the which is a thing contrarye to all lawes diuine and humane which defende that one shoulde be Iudge in his owne cause and you will not onely be a Iudge but a partie resembling in this him that gaue the blowe to Christe vnto whom the aunswere was made If wee haue done yll proue it before the Iudge seeing that you are our accusers If you saye that God hath geuen you power to knowe to iudge and to exempt that is to saye to driue vs out of our possession and to cause the people to forsake that religion which they haue mainteyned these 1500 yeres and vpwardes shew vs your commissiō with as sure a warrant as so great a matter doth require seeing that you saye that ye are sent extraordinarily as Moyses was to redeme the children of Israel out of the captiuity of Egipt that is to sai according vnto your interpretation the children of God and the true faithful out of the false religion of the Papists of that which the Pope Antichriste worse then Pharao is the head and master Thus ye vse to expound and morali●●te the figures of the olde Testament in fauoure of the Catholike Churche yet is it so that when God spake vnto you about so zealous a thing as this ye forgat one thing that doeth hinder greatlye youre Commissiō You should haue shewed god that the Commissiō which he gaue you was like to breede no lesse mischief amongst the Papistes then Moyses did among that Egiptians For I am sure if any to try you wold take your othe that you woulde sweare that the Pope is as yll as Pharao and we as harde hearted as the Egyptians Therefore why did ye not demaund of him a Rodde to conuert into a Serpent and to
doest thou O Apelles remoue my landes And a litle after he sayeth The place is mine I haue bene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to mainteine my right of those to whom it did appertayne which lefte it me by inheritaunce from the Apostles etc. Our Churche of Fraunce which is one of the principall members of all the Catholike Churche might with good cause say vnto you the like And I praye what would you answere you cannot denye but that aboue a thousand yeres before ye were borne that the fayth in which ye were baptized and the which you haue falselye denied was planted I doo not saye in this onelye kingdome of Fraunce but ouer all Christendome If you pretende anye right to the contrary shewe the reason of your possession by the euidence of the auncient doctours and after come to demaund it as I haue saide before I meane that you should yeld the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manye places with to great libertie of conscience licence to doo euill which is the very death of the soule as Saint Augustine doth say epist. 166. And after that ye haue restored Fraunce to his olde estate then there wil be more apparaunce of the matter that ye are sent to preache the true worde of God then there is now But in this estate that ye are although that God had geuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and Arcades whiche in old time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make an Edict that if the true owner or lorde of a thing should vse any force or to seeke by the waye of violence without staying for the sentence of the Iudge to get possession of his owne from another man yea although the other had no right to it he shoulde not onely lose the possession but likewise the propertie but if it were founde that he that did enter by force had no right to the Mannur he should not onely be depriued of it but moreouer he shoulde be condemned to geue as much more of his owne vnto him against whom he had vsed the force as the thinge was valued at that he sought to vsurpe If one shoulde call you my masters the newe refourmed Gospellers to such a reckening ye might well packe vp your pipes and transporte your fidelye into another countrey for you shoulde haue no other remedie but to runne awaye with the goodes and preache pouertie ¶ The .16 Chapter FOr your defence you alleage no other reason but youre good zeale and your ardent Apostolical affection the which hath moued you to sowe this seede of sedition You saye that the fielde is great and there are fewe good reapers but if you marke that that doth folowe afterwarde and to take the counsaile of the wise Christe doeth not commaunde therefore that euerye one shoulde take his sickle and goe and cut downe other mennes corne But he sayeth Praye the master of the worke to the ende that he sende more woorkemenne to his vine He doeth teache vs that if we see anye estate out of order we shoulde praye to God to redresse it And in the meane time we ought to correct and amend our own liues for if euery man were for him selfe God would be for vs all Yet notwithstanding this it is not reasonable that vnder the colour of a good zeale a seruant shoulde take in hand an acte of so great importance without expresse commaundement of his master as it is saide But now that we are come to talke of your good zeale if it please you let vs knowe if those ardent flames of charitie haue so inflamed you that you haue ouerthrowen the Chaires of the negligent Pastors and Bishops and in their roomes ye haue collocated your ministers in euery place where ye could beare any swaye as it doeth appere in many townes and Cities in this Realme I doo not doubt but that you will doo the best that ye can to doo the like with the rest I mean aswell Temporall as Spiritual For euē as God of whom ye speake so often doeth make no exception of persons euen so you that call your selues his Lieuetenants wil make no difference betwene the euyl estates the good Euery one doth know that the administration of iustice is very honourable before God and that there be many in this vocation that would not for any thing do any wrong vnto the widowe fatherlesse childe and yet we see and knowe by experience that ther are many others that without any conscience doe take brybes and offer wrong both to the fatherles and to the widowe the whiche crimes are no lesse in that estate then the careles liuing of the Bishops and Pastors So that I thinke by this that he that hath geuen you charge and power to turne the Byshops out of their seates the Curates out of their benefices and the Monkes Abbots out of their Abbeys because of their euil liuings would likewise extende your commission to put downe Lordes Knightes Iudges and Gentlemen because of the corrupt liues of many of them And to make an ende of the reformation your holy Ghoste and those zealous flames of the spirite woulde moue you to goe a litle higher for there is nothing done but the spirite may amend it Against the great trees striue the great windes and against great dignities great abuses It is not vnknowen to all mē that ther are good and godly Catholike princes and kinges whiche are surely to the people the great giftes of God but likewise one cannot denye but that there hath beene and are diuers ill princes that do gouerne their people carelesly and without Iustice And if by chaunce your Gospell shuld fal into some kingdom wher the prince were not so sage nor so wise as you would haue him in your conscience what wold you do to him I think that that very zeal if you could that hath moued you vnder the coulor of a refor Gospell to trouble so muche our state woulde likewise commaunde you to dispossesse those kinges that do abuse their owne kingdoms euen aswel as to depriue those Bishoppes that doo abuse their bishoprickes But O Lorde what a Gospell is this if it be permitted that the people shall call their princes to accompt or that they may correct their superiours vnder the color of a reformed gospel what seditions troubles warres shal we see ouer al Christendome we shal see fulfilled to our great harme the prophecie of Esay who saieth The people shall seeke to rayse one against another and euerye one against his neibour the yong man shal disdain the old and the ignoble the noble etc. But what coulor soeuer ye cloke your new gospel withal ye run far wide frō him that doth cōmaund vs to obeye all creatures for the loue of God.
burnt for an heretike about a. 120. yeeres agone euen as wee accoumpt S. Steuen to be the fyrst Martyr of our Churche Nowe to knowe whether ye be of the opinion of the Hussites or no that I leaue for some other time and for this present I am content to condescende to that that you haue written I mean that Iohn Hus did preache your Gospell and made a number of such faithfull persons as you are and that he suffered death to sustaine your religion Then let vs see what good fruite this did produce vnto vs Those that haue written the stories of Boheme and amonge others Eneas Siluius do testifye that in the yere of our Lorde God. 1418. there was a certaine monke that became an Hussite in the Citie of Prage which is the Metropolitane of that Kingdome the which accompanied with a number of companions as zealous as himself they did execute so horrible a crueltie that eleuen of the principall Magistrates were driuen to flee from the Citie to saue their lyues and seuen more for in all they were 18. beinge taken by them they did cast them out at the windowes of their owne houses did kill them with their speares as they fell This was done Sigismondus being then Emperoure in the time of Martine the fyrste Pope of Rome of that name Vneslaus being then king of Boheme The next yere after the death of this sayde Vneslaus they did spoyle al the monasteries Abbeyes and Churches of the sayde kingdome And among others one Iohn Zischa who was their captaine in the Citie of Prage he made them all passe through the edge of the swerde without sparing man womā or childe And the like was done in another Towne of the saide kingdom called Messim the yere 1423. It wer to tedious to write all their cruelties they did not care whether those of their company wer of their sect or no for some were Idumeans some Palestines some Moabites and some other Amelecites euen as of your bountifull goodnes ye call all those that will not be of your sect Papists Infidels Hipocrites and Idolaters and therfore we may iustly say that you are their right heyres apparant although ye haue gone somewhat before them as our Sauiour saide accomplished the measures of your fathers by the heroicall actes that you haue done in this almoste desolate kingdome of Fraunce there needeth no other witnes to proue it but the testimonie of your owne eyes eares which haue heard and seene more almoste thē any man can write Therefore I beseeche you not to reproche anye more the abuses of our ecclesiasticall ministers for although it be so that they haue neede of some reformation yet I doo thinke it is necessarye to choose some better stayed persons then you are for you haue done more harme in fyue yeres then ours haue done in a. 1500. S. Augustine in the fyrste booke of the Citie of God doeth magnifye in the Christians behalfe the diuine fauoure of God for he doth write that when the Gothes did destroye spoyle the Citie of Rome the Romanes althogh they were not Christian did retyre them selues for their sauegard into the Churches and Temples of the Martyrs And the Gothes being but a barbarous nation had that respect to God that they neuer durst nor wolde enter into those holy places to doo thē any displeasure You which make so great profession of the Gospell haue shewed your selues a great deal more cruell then those barbarous people for they did pardon all those that went to the Temples and you haue in manye places spoyled the Churches and murdered all those that ye founde in thē so that one might wel say to you that that Optatus Myleuitanus in his book con Parm. Donatist the which was that the Donatists ought to be content you likewise to haue wounded the members of the Church and to haue deuided the people of God at the least you should haue spared the aultares and the temples not to make warre against the stones ¶ The .37 Chapter YOu make vs but a verye slender aunswer saying that we wer the first that you doo no other but that that we haue taught you If wee should say the contrary I know who should say the truth but to auoide all quarels the best is folowing the councell of our Sauior to geue you more then you demaund Let vs put the case that we should confesse to be the first doth it folowe therfore that your matter is good I pray do but consider the verdict that you both geue of your selues of vs We are according to your sacred gospel Apostolical iudgement no other but poor simple Infidels superstitious Idolaters but contrariwise you are Apostles Prophetes Euangelists the true childrē of god Seing thē that god hath shewed you so much fauoure and poured vppon you the bountifull giftes of his grace howe haue ye sought so cruellye to reuenge your selues against his expresse commaundement Is this the waye of reformation to shewe your selues as yll as we or worse seinge that the matter falleth out so plainly I pray you be not so obstinate geue place vnto the best to reforme the rest for to be worse then you I think none can be founde You my masters that can make such tedious sermons and rayle at large against our Popes and Bishops whye doo you passe ouer so lightly the faultes of your ministers you set out gloriously the titles of Apostles Prophets Euangelists extraordinarie messengers of God for your selues as good Godfathers ye now christen our popes bishops calling them rauening and greedie deuouring wolues In this ye do greatlye abuse the intellection of the scriptures for if you marke well that that our Sauiour doth saye ye shall find that ye runne farre wide of the text and the similitude of the wolfe doth full well appertayne vnto your ministerie There he doth declare the difference that is betwixt the good shepherde and the bad which he doth call Mercenarium the wolfe The good Shepherde is he that doeth hazarde and venture his life for his flock The yll Shepherde is he that taketh the milke and the wool from the sheepe letteth them rome without taking anye care to keepe them The wolues seeing them rome abrode scatered frō the flocke doth deuoure all those that are yll kept The good Shepherde is our Sauiour Christe and his Apostles and all the good Bishops that did florishe in olde time and al the holye Confessors and martyrs that haue liued in the golden age when the bloud of our Sauiour Christe was yet hot boyling in their heartes The yll shepherdes haue folowed after whiche haue not cared for their sheepe The wolues which are the heretikes seeing this haue scatered the sheepe out of the fould of Christ which is the catholike Church where they had bene borne spiritually that is to saye regenerated with the grace of the holy ghost the Sacrament of baptisme to