these Objections First as to that that you do say that you are bound to Conceal your Councels and the Kings secrets that is very true as to your Councels that is your Debates you are bound to conceal them As to the Kings secrets so long as he will have them kept secret you are bound to keep them so too but it doth not deprive the King of the benefit of having it publick if he have a desire for it you don't break your Oath if the King will make it publick you don't make it publick 't is the King does it Then as to that that you do say that you apprehend the common usage of the Kingdom to be a Law that is true Mr. Papillon in some sence a constant and uninterrupted usage goes for a Law among us but I thought I had told you before that both of ancient and later times there have been Examinations of the Witnesses in Court in Cases of this nature and we are not without presidents of it every Year every Term continually from time to time Evidence is heard in Court by the Grand-Jury it is as usual a thing with us as any thing if it be desired nothing more frequent or more common I never heard it deny'd or stood upon by any Grand-Jury in my life till of late here you may be instructed with a thousand presidents for I am sure it is a common and ordinary case upon such occasions if desired to hear the Evidence in Court Look ye Gentlemen as to that care that you have of the Kings affairs the King has reason to take it well that you are so careful for them and that you are so mindful of his concerns he hath a great deal of reason to think well of you for it And Gentlemen consider this that His Majesties Council have certainly considered of this Evidence before they brought this to a publick Enquiry or else it would be a hard thing if they should come raw and not know what the Witnesses can say for though you are the Jury to hear the Witnesses yet you must consider that the Kings Council have Examined whether he hath cause to accuse these persons or not and Gentlemen they understand very well that it will be no prejudice to the King to have the Evidence heard openly in Court or else the King would ne're desire it Foreman My Lord the Gentlemen of the Jury desire that it may be Recorded that we insisted upon it as our Right but if the Court o're rule we must submit to it L. C. J. Here are enough persons to take notice of it to make Records of such things is not usual it is not our business here to record every thing that every man will desire to be Recorded We can Record nothing but what is in Order to the Proceedings but notice enough is taken of it you need not fear but that there will be Witnesses enough L. C. J. North. Gentlemen I must say something to fortifie what my Lord Chief Justice has said If any of us had been of a different opinion we would have spoken it the same thing was stood upon and discoursed on the last Sessions and then all the Judges were of this opinion and in what all the Judges agree to you should acquiesce I must tell you from my own experience where the King will he ought to have it kept secret I have not known it done publiâ—kly in the orderly course of business but I have often known wherâ—… hath been desir'd by those which Prosecute for the King that Evidence hath been given openly and I never knew it deny'd If any of my Brothers think otherwise I desire they would speak but I tell you as to my experience this is the case Mr. Sheriff P. I desire the Witnesses may be kept out of the Court and called one by one L. C. J. It is a thing certainly that the King's Council will not be afraid of doing but Sheriffs do not use to move any thing of this nature in Court and therefore 't is not your Duty Mr. Sheriff to meddle with it Sheriff P. It was my Duty last time my Lord and appointed Mr. Att. Gen. You were acquainted 't was not your Duty last time and you appear against the King Then the Indictment was Read London ss THE Jurors for our Soveraign Lord the King upon their Oaths present that Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury late of the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields in the County of Middlesex as a false Traytor against the most Illustrious and most Excellent Prince our Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King his Natural Lord the fear of God in his heart not having nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil the Cordial Love and true due and natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him our said Soveraign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear wholly withdrawing and with all his strength intending the Peace and common Tranquillity in this Kingdom of England to disturb and War and Rebellion against our said Soveraign Lord the King to stir up and move and the Government of our said Soveraign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to subvert and him our said Soveraign Lord the King from the Title Honour and Regal Name of the Imperial Crown of his Kingdom of England to Depose and Deprive and Him our said Soveraign Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England and divers other days and times as well before as afterward in the Parish of St. Mary Le-Bow in the Ward of Cheap London Trayterously compassed imagined and intended the Death and Final Destruction of our said Soveraign Lord the King and the ancient Government of his Kingdom of England to change alter and wholly to Subvert and Him our said Soveraign Lord the King from the Title Honour and Kingly Name of his Imperial Crown of this Kingdom of England to Depose and Deprive and War and Rebellion against our said Soveraign Lord the King to move and levy within this Kingdom of England and his said most wicked Treasons and Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes aforesaid to fulfill and perfect he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor with divers Armed men Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King then being maliciously trayterously and advisedly did provide and prepare to be aiding to him the said Earl of Shaftsbury to fulfill and perfect his Treasons aforesaid And his said wicked Treasons Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes the sooner to fulfill and perfect he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor with one John Booth and other Subjects of our said Lord the
King then and there Trayterously assembled met and consulted and the same wicked Treasons and Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes aforesaid then and there to the said John Booth and other persons to the Jury unknown in the hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly publickly maliciously trayterously and advisedly did say and declare and to perswade and induce the said John Booth to be aiding and assisting in his said Treasons Compasses Imaginations and Purposes he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor maliciously advisedly and trayterously the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord the King at the Parish and Ward aforesaid within the City of London aforesaid falsly advisedly subtilly maliciously and trayterously said asserted and declared That in a short time the Parliament was to sit at Oxford and that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had inspected the Elections and considered the inclinations and dispositions of the generality of the Members of Parliament Elected and that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury was satisfied that the Parliament would insist upon three Matters to wit The Bill of Exclusion against the Duke of York the Abolishing the Act of Parliament of the 35th of Queen Elizabeth and the passing of a New Bill for Vniting Protestant Dissenters with divers other good and wholesome Bills To which he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury was certain that the Kings Majesty would refuse to give his Royal Assent and therefore he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury did expect that there would be a Division between the Kings Majesty and the Parliament and that many Noble Lords and Worthy Members of the lower House did concur in the same Opinion and they were resolved to insist upon the Passing of those Bills And if the Kings Majesty refused that they meaning him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and the said Noble Lords and Worthy Members had provided strength to compel the Kings Majesty to Grant thereunto And that for his part he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had provided stout men to be Commanded by Captain Wilkinson meaning one Henry Wilkinson one of the Subjects of our said now Soveraign Lord the King of which he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had agreed that the said John Booth should be one And further The Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath do say That the aforesaid Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and Trayterous Imaginations to fulfill perfect and bring to effect afterwards to wit the said Eighteenth day of March in the Thirty-third year of his said now Majesties Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid within the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege People of our said Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly and publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That our said now Lord the King was a Man of no Faith and that there was no trust in him and that our said Lord the King deserved to be deposed as well as Richard the Second late King of England deserved And further The Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath do say That the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations aforesaid to be fulfilled and perfected and brought to effect the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of his said now Majesty's Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid in the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Lord the King then and there present openly and publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would never desist until he had brought this Kingdom of England into a Commonwealth without a King and that the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and all those that him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would assist and he knew many that would assist him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would make England a Commonwealth as Holland was And that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and other Traytors unknown would live as in Holland and that he our said Lord the King and all his Family should be rooted out And further The Jurors aforesaid do say That the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations aforesaid to be fulfilled perfected and brought to effect afterwards the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of his said now Majesty's Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid in the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That our now Soveraign Lord the King was a Man of an unfaithful Heart and not worthy to be trusted and not fit to Rule and Govern being false unjust and cruel to his People and if he would not be governed by his People that they meaning him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and other Traytors to the Jurors unknown our said Soveraign Lord the King would depose against his Allegiance and Duty and against the Peace of our said Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity c. and against the form of the Statute in such case made and provided c. Sir Fr. Withens Gentlemen of the Jury This is an Indictment against the Earl of Shaftsbury I shall not trouble you to open the Indictment because the Evidence will be somewhat long I shall only tell you which way we shall go L. C. J. North. I do not know whether you desire the Witnesses should be Examin'd apart do you desire that Gentlemen L. C. J. If you do desire it Gentlemen they shall for Mr. Sheriff hath nothing to do with it but if you do desire it you shall have the Witnesses call'd one at a time and all the rest shall be put out of the Court. Jury My Lord It is our desire L. C. J. We did deny it to Mr. Sheriff because we are to keep Men within their Duty Here it is not his Duty to meddle with any thing of this nature Foreman My Lord We desire we may have a List of their Names and that they may be put apart that they may not hear what one another say Sir Fr. Withens My Lord There is one part I would open L. C. J. There is no need for it at all You shall have their Names told you as they are call'd Mr. Harrison My Lord We pray we may have a List of their Names L. C. J. If you desire it you may have it but it will be no advantage for you
Lord Shaftsbury's own mouth Sir Fr. Withins Had you any other discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury Booth I say I made three or four Visits between Christmass and March and we had discourse every time particularly about the Kings person and if the King did refuse these motions that then these men were to be taken from him and he repell'd with a greater force and be brought to it by force Sir Fr. Withins Did you ever make any solicitation to any to make this Discovery Booth Thus far I did and I will tell you the whole matter in that point there was one Walter Banes an acquaintance of mine and I found that he had at Wilkinson's request engaged himself in some business that one Brownrig an Attorney in Yorkshire had writ to him about concerning some men that were to Swear against my Lord Shaftsbury I asked Mr. Banes what men these were he said he thought they were Irish-men I said I don't know what Conversation in that nature my Lord Shaftsbury might have with Irish-men for I know none of them but I am satisfied that he had Conversation tending to these ends that you speak of with some English-men and that I know This Mr. Banes did take particular notice of and he was very frequently upon me to tell him what the matter was and I gave him some intimation of it Truly 't was very much upon my spirit and I could not tell whether I was able to carry it through or not or had better to let it alone as it was in silence but discoursing still more with him and at the result of that discourse we had by degrees I did give him some intimation of it And after that upon second thoughts I took a resolution to discover it and when I did discover it I do here in the presence of God declare that no mortal did know any thing of what I had to say in reference to the King nor did I make any more applications in the world but took Pen Ink and Paper and writ it down and sealed it under a Cover and sent it to the Council Sir Fr. Withins Gentlemen of the Jury would you ask him any Questions Mr. Papillon The Jury told your Lordship before that after all had been examin'd they would consider what Questions L. C. J. Where would you have these Witnesses that have been examined to stand Mr. Papillon We leave it to the Sheriffs to appoint a place for them Lord Chief Justice To keep them apart it 's utterly impossible for we must have as many Rooms then as there are Witnesses Jury Let one man keep with them L. C. J. Empty that place where they were the last time and let them stand there Edward Turberville Sir Francis Withins Mr. Turberville have you had any discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury Turberville Yes several times In February last I am not positive in the time but about the beginning of the Month I waited upon my Lord Shaftsbury about some moneys I waited upon him to have his Advice how I might come by 't and to gain my Lord Shaftsbury's Letter in my behalf to the President of the Council to stand my friend and he said there was little good to be had from the King as long as his Guards were about him for were it not for his Guards we would quickly go down to Whitehal and obtain what terms we thought fit Said I my Lord I suppose his Guards can't defend him from the whole Kingdom His Lordship said That the Rabble were all of that side especially the People about Wapping and Aldersgate-street and the Rich men of the City would Vote for Elections but they could not expect they should stand by them in case there should be any Disturbance for they valued their Riches more than their Cause And at Oxford I heard my Lord say again He wonder'd the people of England should stickle so much about Religion and that if he were to choose a Religion he would have one that should comply with what was apt to carry on their Cause Mr. Sanders Had you any other discourse with him at any other time Master Turberville I told you all that is material that I can say to it John Smith Mr. Smith My Lord I only beg a word or two from your Lordship of some reflections cast upon me L. C. J. Go to your Evidence Mr. Smith My Lord this is something to my Evidence L. C. J. You may take another time for that Mr. Smith My Lord it hath been reported about in Coffee-houses and Taverns that I should Swear there was a general Design against his Majesty and that I Swore it before the King and Secretary of State and that I also Swore it at the Tryal of Mr. College and Mr. Rowse I take it upon my Oath I never Swore any such thing neither can I Swear there was a General Design by the City or the Parliament against the King Lord Chief Justice Speak what discourse you have had with my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Smith My Lord I suppose it is past all doubt that I have been very often with my Lord Shaftsbury and I have often in his discourse observed that he spake very irreverently and slightly of the King sometimes saying he was a Weak man and sometimes saying he was an Inconstant man a Man of no firm or settled Resolution and a Man that was easily led by the Nose as his Father was before him by a Popish Queen which was the Ruine of his Father This was both in publick and in private I have also observed sometimes in his discourse something that he mention'd of the Earl of Essex and that the King should declare That the Earl of Shaftsbury was not satisfied to be an ill man himself but got over the Earl of Essex too This the Earl of Shaftsbury declar'd publickly in his own house Another story was of the Rebellion of Scotland That the King should say that the Earl of Shaftsbury was the chief Promoter of that Rebellion and when this was told my Lord Shaftsbury that he should send word back again to the King I am glad says he that the King sees not his own Danger nor what he runs himself into and pray tell him that if I were to raise a Rebellion I could raise anotherguess Rebellion than the Rebellion was in Scotland But now as to the particular points I am to charge him with I remember my Lord that my Lord Shaftsbury sent for me one time and that by one Manly sometimes they call him Major Manly sometimes Captain Manly and this man found me at Mr. Bethel's Club in Newgate-street at the Queens Arms and there he told me my Lord Shaftsbury would speak with me that night I immediately left the Club and went to my Lord Shaftsbury's and I was introduc'd into the Dining Room where there were two Gentlemen in discourse with my Lord and as soon as he saw me he askt me how I did I told him I was very
Gentlemen that came out of the Country were well provided with Horse Arms and Men to oppose him and that they might lawfully do it if the King offered any Violence to them whilst they sat and that the Nation stood by them and that they did represent the Nation and that for his part he and all his Friends would do it to the utmost of their Power and as Old as he was he would be one that would oppose it to his power My Lord said I we can expect nothing but Confusion from this Parliament in this Nature for then we shall be involved in another Civil-War nothing else can put an end to our Miseries or make this Nation a settled Nation but a Civil-War Then my Lord said I by this means wee shall make an end of Monarchy or else inslave the Nation to Popery for ever No doubt of one say's he but we are sure of one for the Nation is of our side and the City you know how they are and where ever they Strike I am sure the Nation will and this I 'le stand and dye by This is the substance of what I have to say against my Lord Shaftsbury and upon the Oath I have taken I am sure I have not added a Word One Word more I have to say 'T is reported I have been hired and Suborn'd I do admire why this City of London where there are as worthy men and as great Lovers of the King and Government as any in the World should say any such thing I was never Suborn'd by them nor never took a farthing of their money nor never took a farthing of the King in my life L. C. J. Who supposes it Mr. Smith 'T is in print my Lord 't was in the Book that came out last night it is suppos'd my Lord for it is in print L. C. J. I had reason to expect that there was no such objection Brian Haines Mr. Sanders Give your knowledge of what discourse you have heard concerning my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haines Sir I have heard him Villifie the King very often and he told me about the Narrative that I made about Sir Edmond-Bury Godfrey's death Mr. Ivey and I went to him one day and he spoke to me of it and I desired him not to expose my person to the King's Anger for I was sure he would never grant a pardon to any man that impeached the Earl of Danby Say's he Do not fear if he doth not grant you a pardon he makes himself the Author of the Plot and say's he the Earl of Essex my Lord Maxfield and I wee do all resolve if you put in writing we will go to the King and beg a pardon of his Majesty for you and if he doth not grant it we will raise the whole Kingdom against him for say's he he must not expect to live peaceably in his Throne if he doth not grant it For he makes himself author of the Plot. My Lord said I he hath dissolved so many Parliaments for the sake of the Earl of Danby and prorogued so many Parliaments therefore he will never grant me this Pardon Say's he doe not fear 't is the best pretence we can have in the world and if you will but put in writing and let me read it that I may give my opinion of it the work is done and if he doth not do it we are prepar'd to raise Arms against him I was with him another time after I made this Narrative and he told me the two Mr. Godfrey's were with the King at Windsor and begged a pardon of his Majesty for me but the King would not grant it but if he be an honest man let him lye at my mercy let him come in and declare what he knows Said I I would not have your Lordship expose my cause in these day's This is the best time for it in the world say's he if he doth not do it he can't expect to be long King of England Pray my Lord said I what shall I do in the mean time I will go beyond Sea said I. No sayes he don't leave the Kingdom he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you I desir'd him a second time not to expose me to the King's fury and I prayed him to help me to a little money to go beyond Sea for I was sure I could not be safe in England Sayes he Have a care of your self but sayes he he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you Then I was in close conference with him one day and I gave him so exact an account of all Transactions from King Charles the First 's Reign the commencement or coming to the Crown to this very day that he was mightily satisfied finding by me that I was a Traveller he was mightily pleased and free with me Pray my Lord what Model do you take or intend to do Sayes he Do you not think but there are Families in England that have as great pretences to the Crown as the King Sayes he there is the Duke of Bucks in the right of his Mother she was descended from Edward one of the Edwards and in her Right he claimes the Barony of Ross he hath as great a Right to the Crown of England as ever any Stewart of them all Jury Speak that again Mr. Haines I was in Conference with my Lord Shaftsbury one day and I gave him an exact account of all Transactions and I asked what they did intend to do with the Government if they pull'd the King down Sayes he Do you think there are no Families in England that have as much pretence to the Crown as any of the Stewarts I know none my Lord sayes he there is the Duke of Bucks that is descended of the Family of the Plantagenets he named some of the Edwards and in her right he should have the Barony of Ross and in her Right he has as good a Title to the Crown of England as ever any Stewart had John Macnamarra Sworn Sir Francis Withins Pray give an account to the Jury of what discourse you have had with my Lord Shaftsbury John Macnamarra My Lord I was with my Lord Shaftsbury a little before he went to Oxford before the Parliament sat there and my Lord told me at that time that he would take care together with those that were with him at Oxford for the Witnesses that were concerned in the Popish Plot. Mr. Harrison Speak out pray Sir John Macnamarra My Lord told me he would take care with those that were with him for the Witnesses that were concern'd in the Popish Plot after my Lord went to Oxford I writ him a Letter giving his Lordship to understand That whereas his Lordship was pleased to promise that he would take care of the Witnesses that he would be pleased to take care of me as well as the rest of the Witnesses after my Lord came home from Oxford I went to him to see what was done His Lordship was pleased
Design against the Earl of Shaftsbury Mr. Haynes To none but to Secretary Jenkins Mr. Papilion You understand the question whether you did give no Information of a Design against my L. Shaftsbury to some Justice of the peace Mr. Haynes No no to none but Mr. Secretary Jenkins L. C. J. You do not observe his question did you ever give to any Justice any Information of a Design against my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haynes Yes my Lord I did to Sir George Treby I made Affidavit before him Mr. Papil When was that Mr. Haynes I think it was in March last Mr. Papilion What was that design against my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haynes The design was what Mr. Fitz-Gerrald told me he told me he gave under his hand to the King that the Earl of Shaftsbury did resolve to set the Crown upon his own head or otherwise to turn the Kingdom into a Common-wealth Mr. Papilion Fitz-Gerrald told you this and so you made Affidavit of it Mr. Haynes Yes before Sir George Treby Mr. Papilion What time Mr. Haynes It was before the Parliament met at Oxford Mr. Papilion So you say the words were when were the words spoken that you mentioned Mr. Haynes The words against my Lord Mr. Papilion Ay. Mr. Haynes He spake them to me a little before I made Affidavit I cannot tell positively the time Mr. Papilion That was before his Commitment Mr. Haynes Yes yes my Lord was committed in June last this Affidavit was made in March last before the Recorder of London L. C. J. North When you ask him about the Information of the design against my Lord Shaftsbury he says that was in March last and when you ask him about the evidence he gives now that was the same day he was apprehended by the Messenger Mr. Papilion About June you say it was that you say you gave in the Information against my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haynes The Information I made against my Lord Shaftsbury was in June last the 28th as I take it of June last Mr. Papilion Where was it you had this discourse Mr. Haynes I had several Conferences with my Lord. Mr. Papilion Did he every time say the same Mr. Haynes The last time I spake with him was in Iron-monger-Lane for Mr. Whitaker told me he would speak with me and he would fain have me explain my self what I did mean by the tall man I mentioned in the Narrative and I went to the house and they told me he was there and I sent up a Note and he desired me to come up but I sent word I did not care to come up because I would not be known and so he sent me word to meet him after Dinner and when I came my name is Haynes my Lord said I and I led his Lordship by the hand and went in there I had I believe a whole hours discourse with him and pray my Lord said I among other questions what Religion is the King of truly says he Mr. Haynes he hath no more Religion than an horse for saith he they say Sir he was inclined to Popery when he came first to England says he he had a tincture of Popery and was much inclined that way but since he was degenerated from all the Principles of Christianity for he is just like a perfect Beast Mr. Papilion This you say was in Iron-monger-Lane Mr. Haynes Ay Sir at a Pastery Cooks Shop Mr. Papilion What time was it Mr. Haynes After Dinner in the after-noon Mr. Papilion In June or when Mr. Haynes I cannot tell what time positively it was about the time of the Trial of Fitz-Harris Mr. Papilion Was it the same time he spake about the D. of Buckingham Mr. Haynes No no. Mr. Papilion When was that Mr. Haynes That was when I was with him at his own house and desired him not to expose me Mr. Papilion What time Mr. Haynes I cannot tell Sir for I never thought I should be called to an account for it and I cannot keep an Almanack in my head and I desired them not to expose me to the King's fury for I heard the King was displeased with me no says he you are mistaken this is the best opportunity we can have and if he will not give you a Pardon we will raise the whole Kingdom against him in Arms and then he makes himself the Master and Author of the Plot and consequently he must expect to be ruined unless he grant you a pardon Mr. Papilion Did you ever hear any other words than what you have now testified Mr. Haynes Yes Sir for I discoursed with him in Iron-monger-Lane a great while and told him that our only and best way to have our ends of the King was to raise a Rebellion in Ireland and that I had relations and friends and could get discontented Persons enough and his Lordship would do the work here Mr. Papilion What did you propound a Rebellion in Ireland Mr. Haynes I offered to go beyond Sea and that now was the best time to raise a Rebellion in Ireland and he said that was not the best way for they had other means to take and so the discourse was waved Mr. Papilion And is that all Mr. Haynes That is all I remember now Mr. Papilion Do you know of any other place or time Mr. Haynes I was with him at his house Mr. Papil Were you ever a witness for my Lady Windham or against her Mr. Haynes No Sir but she arrested me because I said I lay with her John Macnamara Mr. Papilion Mr. Macnamara when was it you had this discourse with my L. Shaftsbury what is the time as near as you remember Mr. Mac. In March and April last Sir Mr. Papilion Twice then do you speak of Mr. Mac. Yes Sir Mr. Papilion Which is that that was in April Mr. Mac. That was the last the last discourse was in April Mr. Papilion To what purpose was that Mr. Mac. My Lord said that the King deserved to be deposed as much as King Richard the second did Mr. Papilion In April you say Mr. Mac. In April Mr. Papilion When did you give Information of this Mr. Mac. I cannot exactly tell Sir Mr. Papilion Repeat what you said Mr. Mac. That the King deserved to be deposed as much as King Richard the Second and that he took the Dutchess of Mazarines advice in every particular which was the worst of Woman kind Mr. Papilion What time in April was this Mr. Mac. It was in the beginning of April Mr. Papilion Where Mr. Mac. In his own house Mr. Papilion Who was present Mr. Mac. There was Mr. Ivey by Mr. Papilion When did you make information of this Mr. Mac. I cannot tell it was a good while ago Mr. Papilion Was it before his Commitment Mr. Mac. Yes Sir it was Mr. Papilion To whom did you give information Mr. Mac. To the Secretary of State Sir Mr. Papilion Which of them Mr. Mac. Mr. Secretary Jenkins Sir Mr. Papilion Did
THE PROCEEDINGS AT THE Sessions House IN THE Old-Baily London ON Thursday the 24th day of November 1681. BEFORE His Majesties Commissioners of Oyer and Terminer UPON THE Bill of Indictment FOR HIGH-TREASON AGAINST ANTHONY EARL of SHAFTSBVRY Published by His Majesties Special Command LONDON Printed for Samuel Mearne and John Baker 1681. THE PROCEEDINGS AT THE Sessions-House IN THE OLD-BAYLY LONDON On Thursday the 24th of November 1681. The GRAND-JURY Sir Samuel Barnardiston John Morden Thomas Papillon John Dubois Charles Hearle Edward Rudge Humphrey Edwin John Morrice Edmund Harrison Joseph Wright John Cox Thomas Parker Leonard Robinson Thomas Shepherd John Flavell Michael Godfrey Joseph Richardson William Empson Andrew Kendrick John Lane John Hall The OATH YOU shall diligently Inquire and true Presentment make of all such Matters Articles and Things as shall be given you in Charge as of all other Matters and Things as shall come to your own knowledge touching this present service the Kings Council your Fellows and your own you shall keep secret you shall present no Person for hatred or malice neither shall you leave any one unpresented for fear favour or affection for lucre or gain or any hopes thereof but in all things you shall present the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge So help you God L. C. J. Pemberton GEntlemen of the Jury we are all met here in one of the most Solemn Assemblies of this Nation it is upon the Execution of Justice upon such as shall be found Offenders and Guilty of the Breach of the King's Laws This Commission by which we sit and you are Summoned doth in its nature extend to all Offences whatsoever against the Laws of the Land Treasons Misprisions of Treasons Felonies and all other Crimes and Offences against the King and his Government such as are vulgarly called Pleas of the Crown they all fall under our Cognizance and your Enquiry in a general manner But I must tell you there is a particular occasion for this Commission at this time His Majesty having Information of some Evil Trayterous Designs against his Person and Government has thought fit to Direct a due Examination of them and that the persons may be brought to Condign punishment who shall be found Guilty thereof You must not therefore expect any general and formal Charge from me Truly I came hither this Morning with an apprehension that you had had your directions given you before by the Recorder for it is our usual way not to come until the Juries are Sworn in this place and their Directions given them but since I find it otherwise I take it to be my Duty to say something to you but shall not go about now to make any such formal Charge as in Commissions of this nature is wont to be done nor to give an account of all Offences that fall under your Enquiry of a Grand Inquest Impannelled by vertue of such a Commission at large Nor must you expect I should acquaint you with all the Crimes that you may enquire of as such an Inquest I shall content my self so far as on the sudden I can recollect my thoughts to acquaint you with the Nature of those Bills with the Enquiry whereof you shall at present upon this occasion be troubled and your Duty concerning that Enquiry I hinted to you at first that they are matters of High-Treason which is a Crime of the greatest and highest nature of any Crime that can be committed against Man other Crimes as Felonies Riots Trespasses and Things of that nature they may occasion disorders and troubles in a State or a Kingdom But I must tell you Treason strikes at the root and life of all it tends to destroy the very Government both King and Subjects and the Lives Interest and Liberties of all and therefore has always been look'd upon as a Crime of the most notorious nature that can be whatsoever and accordingly Punishments have been appointed for it of the highest and severest extremity There was at Common Law great variety of Opinions concerning Treason and there were many Disputes about it what should be Treason and what not and therefore it was thought fit by the Wisdom of our Ancestors to have a Law to Declare Treason and by the Statute of the 25th of Edward the 3d there was a plain Declaration made of what was Treason and what not By that Law for any one to Compass Imagine or Intend the Death of the King for I will give you no more of that Statute nor concerning the sense thereof than may be for your purpose now I say by that Law to Compass Imagine or Intend the Death of the King and to declare it by Overt-Act or to Levy War against the King were declared amongst other things in that Statute mentioned to be High-Treason And this hath obtained for Law among us ever since and by that standing Law nothing is to be accounted Treason but what is therein particularly declared so but upon many emergent occasions there hath been several other Laws as the case hath required now and then for to declare and bring other particular Crimes within the compass of Treasons So there was a Law made in Queen Elizabeths Reign for Enacting several Crimes to be Treasons during her Life which was made upon the occasion of the Inveterate Malice of the Roman Catholicks against her and her Government and so there hath been in other Kings Reigns upon other occasions Amongst the rest it was thought fit by the Parliament assembled here in the Thirteenth year of this present King to make a particular Law for the Enacting and Declaring several Crimes to be Treasons during this Kings Life they had great grounds and too much occasion for it and so they express it in the Preamble of that Law The wounds which the then late Treasons had made that had so far obtained in this Kingdom were then still bleeding ripe and scarcely closed many Trayterous Positions and many Seditious Principles were spread and had obtained and gained footing among the People of this Kingdom and the Parliament had reason to believe that where they had been so maliciously bent against the King and his Family and had taken off his Father and maintained so long and dangerous a War against him almost to the utter Destruction and Extirpation of him and all his good Subjects and of his and all our Interests Properties and Liberties and had almost destroy'd a flourishing Kingdom Here they had reason I say to be careful to prevent the like mischiefs for the future therefore Gentlemen they did think fit to make a new Law for this purpose And whereas the Law before was That it should be Treason to Compass Imagine or Intend the Death of the King so as it were declared by Overt-Act now they thought it would be dangerous to stay till an Overt-Act should declare the intention for when they had seen such malicious and evil Designs
against the King and Supreme Authority and that they had prevailed so far as to Murder one King and Banish another and had gone a great way in the destruction of the Government of this Kingdom absolutely to root it quite out They had reason then as much as they could to prevent the Designs before they should grow full ripe and vent themselves in Overt-Acts therefore it was Enacted by that Statute made in the 13th year of this Kings Reign That if any one should Compass Imagine or Intend the Death of the King or his Destruction or any bodily harm that might tend to his Death or Destruction or any Maiming or Wounding his Person any Restraint of his Liberty or any Imprisonment of him or if any should design or intend to Levy any War against him either within the Kingdom or without or should design intend endeavour or procure any Foreign Prince to Invade these his Dominions or any other of the Kings Dominions and should signifie or declare this by any Writing or by any Preaching or Printing or by any advised malicious speaking or words this shall be High-Treason Now this hath altered the former Law greatly especially in two Cases First as to Levying of War the Intention was not Treason before unless it had taken effect and War had been actually Levied And then as to the Designing and Compassing the Kings Death that was not Treason unless it was declared by an Overt-Act And as to the Imprisoning or Restraining of the Liberty of the King they of themselves alone were not High-Treason but now by this Law these are made Treason by this Law during his Majesties Life And the very designing of them whether they take effect or not take effect though it be prevented before any Overt Act by the timely Prudence of the King and his Officers though it should be timely prevented that there is no hurt done yet the very design if it be but utter'd and spoken and any ways signified by any discourse this Gentlemen is made Treason by this Act and this hath wrought very great alteration in the case of Treason now formerly it was said and said truly enough that Words alone would not make Treason but since this Act Gentlemen Words if they import any malicious design against the Kings Life and Government any Trayterous intention in the party such words are Treason now within this Act And this Act was made with great Prudence and with great Care to take off that undue Liberty that men had taken to themselves in those times of Licentiousness people had taken to themselves an undecent and undue liberty to vent all their Seditious and Malicious minds one to another without any restraint at all Therefore now Gentlemen you must consider that Words if they signifie or purport any Trayterous intention or design in the party either against the King or his Government either to restrain his Liberty or Imprison him or to do him any bodily hurt or any Crime of that nature this is Treason within this Act of Parliament Look ye Gentlemen now as to the Indictments that shall be brought before you you are to consider these things 1. Whether the Matter contained in them and which you shall have in Evidence be Matter of Treason within the former or this Act of Parliament And here if you doubt of it then you must advise with us that are Commissionated by his Majesty to Hear and Determine these Crimes and in Matters of Law we shall direct you And you are to enquire if there be two Witnesses that shall testifie the Matters in Evidence to you for without two Witnesses no man is to be Impeached within these Laws but if there be two Witnesses that shall testifie to you Matters to make good the Indictments then you have ground to find the Indictments But I must tell you as to this case of two Witnesses it is not necessary that they should be Two Witnesses to the same words or to words spoken at one time or in the same place that is not necessary If one be a Witness to words that Import any Trayterous design and intention spoken at one time and in one place and another testifie other Seditious and Trayterous Words spoken at another time and in another place these two are two good Witnesses within this Statute and so it hath been solemnly resolved by all the Judges of England upon a solemn occasion Look ye Gentlemen I must tell you That that which is referr'd to you is to consider whether upon what Evidence you shall have given unto you there be any reason or ground for the King to call these persons to an account if there be probable ground it is as much as you are to enquire into You are not to Judge the persons but for the Honour of the King and the Decency of the Matter it is not thought fit by the Law that persons should be Accused and Indicted where there is no colour nor ground for it where there is no kind of suspition of a Crime nor reason to believe that the thing can be proved it is not for the King's Honour to call Men to an Account in such cases Therefore you are to enquire whether that that you hear be any cause or reason for the King to put the Party to answer it You do not Condemn nor is there such a strict Enquiry to be made by you as by others that are sworn to try a Fact or Issue A probable cause or some ground that the King hath to call these persons to answer for it is enough Gentlemen for you to find a Bill 't is as much as is by Law required Gentlemen you must consider this That as it is a Crime for to condemn Innocent persons so it is a Crime as great to acquit the Guilty and that God that requires one of them requires both so that you must be as strict in the one as you would be in the other And let me tell you If any of you shall be Refractory and will not find any Bill where there is a probable ground for an Accusation you do therein undertake to intercept Justice and you thereby make your selves Criminals and Guilty and the fault will lye at your Door You must consider Gentlemen you are under a double Obligation here to do Right you are under the Obligation of English-men as we are all Members of one great Body of which the King is Head and you are engag'd as English-men to consider That Crimes of this Nature ought not to go unpunish'd Then you have an Oath of God upon you you are here sworn to do according to what the Evidence is Now therefore if you have two Witnesses of Words that may import a Treasonable Design or Intention in any of those Parties against whom you shall have Indictments offer'd to you you are bound both by the Law of Nature as you are Members of this Body and by the Law of God as you have taken
an Oath upon you for to find those Bills Gentlemen Compassion or Pity is not your Province nor ours in this case there is no room for that in Enquiries of this nature that is reserv'd to an higher and superiour Power from which ours is deriv'd Therefore Gentlemen I must require you to consider such Evidence as shall be given you and to be impartial according to what you shall hear from the Witnesses if you have ground upon what Evidence you shall have given to you to believe that there is any reason or cause for the King to call the persons named in such Indictments as shall be tender'd to you to answer for what is objected against them therein you are to find those Bills that is all that I shall say to you only pray God to direct you in your Enquiry that Justice may take place Then a Bill of High-Treason was offer'd against the Earl of Shaftsbury and Sir Francis Withens moved That the Evidence might be heard in Court L. C. J. Gentlemen of the Jury You hear it is desired by the King's Council and that we cannot deny that the Evidence may be publickly given that it may not be hereafter in the Mouths of any ill-minded persons abroad to scatter any Mistakes or Untruths up and down or to slander the King's Evidence or to say any thing concerning them that is not true Therefore we cannot deny this motion of the King's Council but desire that you will take your places and hear the Evidence that shall be given you The Jury then desired a Copy of their Oath which the Court granted and then they withdrew After some little time they returned and then the Clerk called them by their Names Foreman My Lord Chief Justice it is the opinion of the Jury that they ought to Examine the Witnesses in private and it hath been the constant practice of our Ancestors and Predecestors to do it and they insist upon it as our Right to Examine in private because they are bound to keep the King 's Secrets which they cannot do if it be done in Court L. C. J. Look ye Gentlemen of the Jury it may very probably be that some late usage has brought you into this Error That it is your Right but it is not your Right in truth For I will tell you I take the reason of that use for Grand Juries to Examine the Witnesses privately and out of Court to comply with the Conveniencies of the Court for generally upon such Commissions as these are the business is much and at Gaol-Deliveries there are a great many persons to be Indicted and Tried and much other Work besides of other natures to be done And if at such times we should examine all Businesses publickly in the Court it would make the business of these Commissions of a wonderful great length and cumbrance Therefore the Judges for the conveniency of the matter have allow'd That Witnesses should go to the Jury and they to Examine them not that there is any matter of Right in it for without question Originally all Evidences were given in Court the Jury are Officers and Ministers of the Court by which they enquire and Evidence sure was all given in Court formerly and the Witnesses still are always sworn in Court and never otherwise And Gentlemen I must tell you 'T is for your Advantage as well as for the King 's that it may be sure that you comply with your Evidence that you do nothing clandestinely therefore 't is for your advantage that this is done and the King likewise desires it Now I must tell you That if the King require it of us and it is a thing that is in its Nature indifferent we ought to comply with the King's desire to have it examin'd in Court you shall have all the liberty that you can have in private what Question soever you will have ask'd your selves shall ask it if you please and we will not cramp you in Time nor any thing of that Nature Therefore Gentlemen there can be no kind of reason why this Evidence should not be given in Court What you say concerning your keeping your Councels that is quite of another Nature that is your Debates and those things there you shall be in private for to consider of what you hear publickly But certainly it is the best way both for the King and for you that there should in a case of this nature be an open and plain Examination of the Witnesses that all the World may see what they say Foreman My Lord if your Lordship pleases I must beg your Lordship's pardon if I mistake in any thing it is contrary to the sence of what the Jury apprehend First They apprehend that the very words of the Oath doth bind them it says That they shall keep the Council's and their own Secrets Now my Lord there can be no Secret in publick the very intimation of that doth imply that the Examination should be secret besides my Lord I beg your Lordship's pardon if we mistake we do not understand any thing of Law Mr. Papillon Your Lordship is pleased to say That it hath been the common usage and practice sometimes my Lord we have heard that that hath been the Law of England that hath been the Custom of England If it be the ancient usage and custom of England that hath never been alter'd from time to time and hath continued so we desire your Lordship's Opinion upon that as we would not do any thing that may be prejudicial to the King so we would not do the least that should be prejudicial to the Liberties of the People if it be the ancient Custom of the Kingdom to Examine in private then there is something may be very prejudicial to the King in this publick Examination for sometimes in Examining Witnesses in private there come to be discover'd some persons Guilty of Treason and Misprision of Treason that were not known nor thought on before Then the Jury sends down to the Court and gives them intimation and these men are presently secur'd whereas my Lord in case they be Examined in open Court publickly then presently there is intimation given and these men are gone away Another thing that may be prejudicial to the King is that all the Evidences here will be foreknown before they come to the main Tryal upon issue by the Petty-Jury then if there be not a very great deal of care these Witnesses may be confronted by raising up Witnesses to prejudice them as in some cases it has been Then besides the Jury do apprehend that in private they are more free to Examine things in particular for the satisfying their own Consciences and that without favour or affection and we hope we shall do our duty L. C. J. Look ye Mr. Papillon it is reasonable that we should give you our advice in this case I must tell you if you had consider'd of what I had said before I thought I had obviated
it to Mr. Secretary Jenkins therefore if you please Mr. Secretary Jenkins you shall be Sworn whether that Paper was delivered to you by Mr. Blaithwait because we would clear it as we go whether that be the Paper was delivered to Mr. Secretary Jenkins by Mr. Blaithwait I pray Sir was that the Paper that Mr. Blathwait did deliver into your hands Mr. Sec. Jenkins My Lord this is the Paper this Paper was delivered into my hands by Mr. Blathwait in the Council-Chamber I cannot say that this numerical Paper was taken out of the Velvet Bag but there were a great many Papers taken out of it and I having the honor to be at the Examination of the Papers this was ordered to be put and was put into my hands with nine Papers more L. C. J. Was it out of your hands Mr. Sec. Jenkins It was out of my hands for upon Monday last I took out the nine Papers intrusted with me and this tenth out of my Desk and caused my Servant to mark them by numbers Then I Sealed up these Papers and sent them to Mr. Graham Mr. Graham brought them back again to me without any alteration whatsoever then I put this tenth Paper into the hands of Mr. Blathwait again All the while it was in my hands it was under Lock and Key and none of my Servants saw it but the time it was Numbred and no manner of alteration was made in this or any other of the nine Papers Lord Chief-Justice Now it appears this was the Paper taken in my Lord Shaftsbury's Closet Then this Paper was Read as followeth WE the Knights c. finding to the grief of our Hearts the Popish Priests and Jesuits with the Papists and their Adherents and Abettors have for several years last past pursued a most pernicious and hellish Plot to root out the True Protestant Religion as a pestilent Heresie to take away the Life of our Gracious King to subvert our Laws and Liberties and to set up Arbitrary Power and Popery And it being notorious that they have been highly encouraged by the Countenance and Protection given and procured for them by J. D. of Y. and by their Expectations of his Succeeding to the Crown and that through crafty Popish Councils his Designs have so far prevailed that he hath created many and great Dependents upon him by his bestowing Offices and Preferments both in Church and State It appearing also to us That by his Influence Mercenary Forces have been levied and kept on foot for his secret Designs contrary to our Laws the Officers thereof having been named and appointed by him to the apparent hazard of his Majesties Person our Religion and Government if the danger had not been timely foreseen by several Parliaments and part of those Forces with great difficulty caused by them to be disbanded at the Kingdoms great Expence And it being evident that notwithstanding all the continual endeavours of the Parliament to deliver his Majesty from the Councils and out of the Power of the said D. yet his Interest in the Ministry of State and others have been so prevalent that Parliaments have been unreasonably Prorogued and Dissolved when they have been in hot pursuit of the Popish Conspiracies and ill Ministers of State their Assistants And that the said D. in order to reduce all into his own power hath procured the Garrisons the Army and Ammunition and all the power of the Seas and Soldiery and Lands belonging to these three Kingdoms to be put into the hands of his Party and their Adherents even in opposition to the Advice and Order of the last Parliament And as we considering with heavy Hearts how greatly the Strength Reputation and Treasure of the Kingdom both at Sea and Land is Wasted and Consumed and lost by the intricate expensive management of these wicked destructive Designs and finding the same Councils after exemplary Justice upon some of the Conspirators to be still pursued with the utmost devilish Malice and desire of Revenge whereby his Majesty is in continual hazard of being Murdered to make way for the said D.'s Advancement to the Crown and the whole Kingdom in such case is destitute of all Security of their Religion Laws Estates and Liberty sad experience in the Case Queen Mary having proved the wisest Laws to be of little force to keep out Popery and Tyranny under a Popish Prince We have therefore endeavoured in a Parliamentary way by a Bill for the purpose to Bar and Exclude the said Duke from the Succession to the Crown and to Banish him for ever out of these Kingdoms of England and Ireland But the first means of the King and Kingdoms Safety being utterly rejected and we left almost in Despair of obtaining any real and effectual security and knowing our selves to be intrusted to Advise and Act for the preservation of His Majesty and the Kingdom and being persuaded in our Consciences that the dangers aforesaid are so eminent and pressing that there ought to be no delay of the best means that are in our power to secure the Kingdom against them We have thought fit to propose to all true Protestants an Vnion amongst themselves by solemn aad sacred promise of mutual Defence and Assistance in the preservation of the true Protestant Religion His Majesties Person and Royal State and our Laws Liberties and Properties and we hold it our bounden Duty to joyn our selves for the same intent in a Declaration of our Vnited Affections and Resolutions in the Form insuing I A. B. Do in the presence of God solemnly Promise Uow and Protest to maintain and defend to the utmost of my Power with my Person and Estate the true Protestant Religion against Popery and all Popish Superstition Idolatry or Innovation and all those who do or shall endeavour to spread or advance it within this Kingdom I will also as far as in me lies Maintain and Defend His Majesties Royal Person and Estate as also the Power and Priviledg of Parliaments the lawful Rights and Liberties of the Subject against all Incroachments and Usurpation of Arbitrary power whatsoever and endeavour entirely to Disband all such Mercenary Forces as we have reason to believe were Raised to Advance it and are still kept up in and about the City of London to the great Amazement and Terror of all the good People of the Land Moreover J. D. of Y. having publickly professed and owned the Popish Religion and notoriously given Life and Birth to the Damnable and Hellish Plots of the Papists against his Majesties Person the Protestant Religion and the Government of this Kingdom I will never consent that the said J. D. of Y. or any other who is or hath been a Papist or any ways adher'd to the Papists in their wicked Designs be admitted to the Succession of the Crown of England But by all lawful means and by force of Arms if need so require according to my Abilities will oppose him and endeavour to Subdue Expel and
the Name of none of his Servants but Mr. Sheppard I cannot remember any body else Foreman Did he carry you up to my Lord Mr. Turbervile It was he I think told me I might go in I was in the Dining Room Foreman What time was this Mr. Turbervile In the Morning Foreman What time was it when you had this Discourse with my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Turbervile It was in February Foreman What time in February Mr. Turbervile About the beginning I cannot tell exactly to a day Foreman How long was this before you communicated this to any body Mr. Turbervile It was about the Fourth of July Foreman Then you concealed it from February to July Who did you Communicate it to first of all Mr. Turbervile The first Deposition I gave was to Mr. Secretary Foreman Which Secretary Mr. Turbervile Secretary Jenkins Foreman Pray what Room was it you had this Discourse in Mr. Turbervile Sir It was the Room at the upper end of the Dining Room I think they call it the Dining Room at the upper end of the Room and turns on the left hand where he lay Foreman Did you meet with no body about the beginning of July after my Lord's Commitment and tell them when you were challenged and told you were to be a Witness against him As you were alive you knew no such thing Mr. Attor General My Lord this is not to be allowed This is private Instructions which the Jury are not to take Foreman No Sir it is not private Instructions Did you not speak such words to William Herbert L. C. J. Have you had any Information concerning this to Mr. Herbert Foreman My Lord I have a long time ago My Lord such a person did tell me so and so and set down the day and he then said he was very angry with him for it L. C. J. Look ye Gentlemen what Discourse you take up at random in every Coffee-house Is that fit to be brought in when Treason is in question against the King's Life Are these Coffee-house Discourses do you think ground enough for you to cavel at Persons because you have heard this Discourse in a Coffee-house Foreman My Lord I never was in a Coffee-house in my life with Mr. Herbert but he declared this to me some Months ago L. C. J. And you think this is ground enough for you against him Mr. Papilion My Lord we only ask this Question whether he hath not contradicted this or said the contrary to any body else Mr. Turbervile I do not remember that ever I spake one word to Mr. Herbert in my life and I can give you one reason For I was discarded by all the People of my Lord's Interest at that time and if I had given under my hand that I had known nothing against him I believe I might have been in their favour as much as before Mr. Papilion Were not you one that Petitioned to the Common Council in London Mr. Turbervile I did Sir Mr. Papilion And did not you declare then that you were tempted to witness against your Conscience Mr. Turbervile I believe I never read the Petition It was drawn by the Order of Mr. Colledge by a Man that lives about Guildhall by a Scrivener about Guildhall and I signed that Petition but never read it nor knew what was in it L. C. J. Mr. Richardson any you Officers watch by those men that make a noise and bring me in one to make an Example Mr. Turbervile My Lord I go in danger of my life for the People threaten to stone me to death and I cannot go safe to my Lodging Mr. Papilion What was your design in signing that Petition what did you look for Mr. Turbervile The design was that the City should take care of us Mr. Papilion Were you in a poor Condition Mr. Turbervile Truly I was not very poor though I was not over full of Money Mr. Papilion It is a strange thing that you should Petition for Relief if you were not in want Mr. Turbervile We were told by some Members of the House of Commons that there was a Vote in the House of Commons ready to pass that the City should advance Money for the support of the Witnesses and that we would Petition that they would answer the Design of the Parliament Mr. Papilion What Members were they Mr. Turbervile It was a Member of the House of Commons that told me so I will assure you two of them Mr. Papilion Did never any body move you or desire you to be a Witness in this case against my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Turbervile No body in my life When I came to speak the truth of what I knew I did it voluntarily Mr. Papilion You did it voluntarily Mr. Turbervile I did I will assure you Mr. Papilion Do you know any thing more than what you have said here Mr. Turbervile No not one tittle Mr. Papilion Mr. Turbervile I desire to be satisfied in one thing whether my Lord Shaftsbury was Committed before or after your Information Mr. Turbervile Truly Sir I cannot tell positively as to that point but I believe it was before I cannot tell Mr. Papilion Did you hear my Lord speak these words in any other Room or Place Mr. Turbervile No indeed I did not Mr. Papilion It was about the Fourth of July you say your Depositions were taken Mr. Turbervile About that time I suppose the Fourth of July I hope your Lordship will take care that we be not knock't on the head L. C. J. That we give in Charge to Mr. Sheriff and see you do take care of the King's Witnesses at your peril It is a reflection not only upon the Government of the City to suffer these Disorders but upon the whole Kingdom Therefore Mr. Sheriff look the Witnesses come by no hurt Mr. John Smith Mr. Papilion Mr. Smith the Jury ask you a Question whether or no you did not use to go by the name of Barry Mr. Smith Sir what names I have gone by is not pertinent to this purpose I tell you I have gone by several Names as all Popish Priests do Mr. Papilion Did you never go by the Name of Barry Mr. Smith It may be I might I have gone by several Names as all Popish Priests do L. C. J. Did you ever go by the Name of Barry Mr. Smith I did my Lord it is usual for Popish Priests so to do Mr. Papilion What Religion are you of Mr. Smith Mr. Smith I am a Protestant Sir Mr. Papilion How long have you been a Protestant Mr. Smith Many years Mr. Papilion When were you first Converted Mr. Smith First Converted Mr. Papilion Ay to the Protestant Religion You say you have been one many years Mr. Smith I have been a Protestant and was perverted to the Popish Religion and afterwards became a Protestant again L. C. J. Bring in one of those men that make the noise Cannot you bring in one of them Mr. Papilion When did you receive the Sacrament