Disloyalty Obs Well and are they not so Herac. Yes but truth must not be spoken at all times For can you think that such Accusations are a likely way to perswade the world that we have an esteem for Parliaments or rather do they not confirm any man in the belief of our desire to cast them quite off whiles we insinuate that both the Electors and Elected are so factious seditious and disloyal Then what need was there for you to go about to excuse all the Extravagancies of the Addressers as particularly that snivelling canting complement from Richmond who tell his Majesty that he dislolv'd the two last Parliaments by the inspiration of the special Spirit of God You may guess what Spirit they are inspir'd with by Thompson's Intelligence of May 13. where you see how they refuse to present any Abhorrence of the Association no damn 'em not they How bravely these Fellows deserve your Advocateship And to what purpose was it to touch upon that importune Eulogie of his Royal Highness from Northumberland who call him the Greatest Example of Duty and Obedience to His Majesty Do you think the King has not both entreated him and Commanded him to continue his presence at the Chapel if that would have done Obs Nay then if I must not keep up the Duke's reputation I had has good give over writing Herac. You do well to keep up the Dukes reputation but then it must be by such Instances as are capable of being improv'd to that end as by commending his constancy to his Friends his valour and the like but surely you cannot commend every man from every Topick In the last place you too manifestly grosly pervert the meaning and scope of the Pamphleteer in several places Obs Nay if Vice correct sin we shall have blessed doings Herac. 'T is true my talent lies pretty much that way but then it is when I have to do with a Brooks or the like that 's marcht off the stage and has no body to take up the cudgels for him in such a case indeed I commend it as the only way and that 's the reason your Dissenter's sayings have taken so well But now when you have to do with an Adversary that 's alive and looks out pretty sharp that way will never do Obs Well but where have I so grosly perverted his meaning Herac. I 'll give you an Instance or two When he had said that even Papists might join in a Protestation to defend the Religion establish'd by Law believing Magna Charta to be the firmest Law and Popery to be establish'd thereby what do you but insinuate presently that he calls the Protestant Religion profest at present in the Church of England flat Popery than which nothing is more contrary to the drift of his discourse Thus when he goes about to prove that Kings cannot claim their Crowns by right of Primogeniture from Adam from the frequent changes of Government in the same Nation whereby such lineal succession is every where interrupted and in order to prove this asks In how many Kingdoms has force and violence and the longest sword settled an absolute Monarchy how oft has that yoke been shak't off and the Government turn'd into a Free State How many different Models of both Monarchies and States Are there at This day in the world and yet sayes he none of them that I know of but are and ought to be own'd by the Subjects for Lawful Governments By this you say he justifies Fourty One c. and all Usurpations whatsoever Now who can with any colour draw such a consequence from such premisses He only shows that from the several revolutions of Government that have been in most Nations the claim by primogeniture lineally from Adam is so confounded that 't is impossible to make out any Right that way But does he therefore say that Charles the First had by force and violence and the longest sword settled an absolute Monarchy so that there should be any colour from thence taken to justifie the Usurpation of fourty one The truth is we that are for King's reigning altogether jure divino are forc't to fly to this right of Primogeniâ—ure seeing only paternal Government is Purely of divine original all other Governments having a Mixture of humane policy But seeing it is impossible to determine who is the eldest of the Family in a right line of succession from Adam if that notion should be relied on Princes Titles would be so much in the dark and admit of so much dispute that 't is safer nay necessary to rely on the establishment by humame Law and the sworn Allegeance of the Subjects though the general precepts of the Scripture of obedience to humane ordinances do confirm the duty and obedience of Subjects to their respective Rulers be they Emperours Kings States or of any inferiour kind or denomination But this only betwixt you and me But there is one thing I had like to have forgot the greatest subtilty in all your Observations and that is N. 132. Where by severing the Successor from the Papist you will have the Addresser transport of joy that the Bill of Exclusion did not pass to proceed only out of respect to the former Now Sir if you could distinguish the Popish Successor or Successor and Papist into two Persons as you have done into two notions you would do something but otherwise your Quatenus is somewhat like that of the Bishop's who being found fault with by a Countreyman for living too pompous and luxurious a life so unsuitable to his office answered That he lived not so AS he was a Bishop but AS he was a secular Prince to whom the Fellow repli'd But I doubt if the Prince go to the Devil the Bishop will not stay far behind And 't is believed the Papist will be assoon in the throne as the Successor And therefore that nicety had as good also been omitted Obs Well but there is one point I have handl'd to purpose both N. 132. and 135. that to imagin the death of the Presumptive heir is Treason Herac. Truly Sir you seem not over-confident of what you have done as to that for you say you will not deliever it for Law as a Lawyer but should be glad to be better informed ibid. Now Sir you have been told already that my Lord Cook delivers it for Law as a Lawyer though you will not the contrary that a Collateral Heir is not within the Stat of 25 E 3. that makes the imagining the death of the King 's eldest Son and Heir to be Treason But methinks you are like some Philosophers that undertake to solve Phaenomena that never were in Nature Before you had taken such pains to prove the presumptive Heir to stand upon equal ground with the King's Son and Heir so as to make that which is Treason to the one to be so to the other I say you would have done well to have first made it out that his death was imagin'd For I do not find by any Overt Act that your Adversary has imagin'd any such thing Obs Why has he not call'd him Traytor and protested He shall not Reign over him Herac. Not that I know not of He calls such an one indeed a Traytor as shall murder the King or force him to resign and I think he does not call him out of his name but 't is you that interpret this of the presumptive Heir which if one should suppose to be his true meaning yet would not his protestation that such an one shall not reign over Him be an imagining his death for 't were but for him and his thousands he talks of to slip over into Holland c. and the Protest were made good Obs Well I think I have not said one word but what you have found fault with what would you have me do write nothing and starve Herac. No but keep to your province of translating Erasmus's Colloquies Quevedo's Visions or French Romances these will hold you doing and keep life and soul together And then if you do us no good you 'l do us no harm And for my own part I 'm half in mind to give over also for Ben. Took's fifteen shillings a Week is but poor wages and the Rogue thinks he gives too much too Inf. Cl. Good Gentlemen be not discourag'd for I can assure you your Works are in great esteem amongst us We should not know what course to Steer if we were not guided by you But come 'pray let us adjourn to Sam 's I believe the House begins to fill by this time Obs Herac. I come let 's go FINIS
the Conference he that can shew the plainest Precedents or the most convincing Arguments carries the thing in dispute or if either side be obstinate 't is just so good and so good the other may take its course protest against the proceeding and then sit down and be quiet Obs Well but though the Upper House are no Judges of the priviledges of the Lower nor on the contrary why may not the Judges of the Land determine of these Priviledges Herac. As for that the aforesaid Learned Lawyer brings you a precedent In Parl. 31 H. 6. Thorpe was Speaker and the Parl. being summoned to be in June it was prorogued until September in the mean time Thorpe was taken in Execution by the Duke of York he notwithstanding this thought to have had the priviledge of the Parliament At the next sessions the matter being greatly considered whether he could have a priviledge or no a Conference was had in the Cause with the Judges The Judges being required in humble sort refused except it were so that the House did command them for in the House of Parliament sayes he the Chief Judges and their Judgments are Controulable by the Court but if the House did Command them they would be Willing to inform them what in their opinions they knew and thought Ibid. Here the Judges were so far from determining what were the priviledges of Parliament that without a Command they would not so much as their opinion Obs Yes yes and you have Serjeant Topham's Case for another Precedent Herac. This is but another bait to catch some fool with I only show you the opinion of former times Obs Come come I have been but dodging with you all this time the King is the Judge of their priviledges Herac. The King's Prerogative indeed is hard enough for all their priviledges put together And if that be well husbanded and maintain'd I defie all the priviledges of Lords or Commons to do Church or State any harm though themselves be still left to be the sole Judges what they are And this will bring us to your Non-â—lich Argument of Fourty One That the Long Parliament should do all those feats you mention as Levying Arms coining of mony c. under the notion of priviledge I cannot imagine I much rather believe they did them for maintenance of their priviledges which they pretended the King went about to invade Obs Why 't is all one Herac. No but 't is not unless ones Life and the Means to guard it be the same thing I say again they pretended the King went about to invade their priviledges and therefore they raised an Army in the defence of them and coin'd money to pay the Army Obs Well and may not any Parliament pretend the same Invasion and make the like defence as well Herac No that they cannot and therefore for ever hereafter leave your bawling out of forty â—â—â— â—â—â— before God it is nothing to the purpose 〈◊〉 you know whose cause I am pleading and therefore I hope you 'l pardon this heat Obs Faith and you act their part to the life Herac. You know in fourty one c. the power of the Militia might seem somewhat a disputable point not that I question but that it truly belong'd to the King but he was not insâ—â—â—ed in it by any express Law that I know of though prescription in my opinion ought to have gone as far on the King's side as express Law But to take away any pretensions of the Parliament for the future you know that the Parliament Ann. 13. and 14. of this King chap. 3. has recogniz'd as it were or expresly acknowledg'd that the power of the Militia appertains to the Crown of this Kingdom so that for the future there cannot be the least pretence for any such claim in the Parliament unless the King will consent to the repealing of that Act which you may suppose if you will Obs Well but this is nothing to the purpose for if for all this the Parliament shall affirm that the Militia belongs to them and they be the sole Judges of their own priviledges the same things may be acted over again Herac. No they cannot for all that For not to mention the improbability nay moral impossibility of the Parliaments pretending to a power which so recent and express an Act has declar'd to be in the King yet though they should be so grossly unreasonable and bare-fac'dly factious the Kings prerogative is able to cope with them And this Prerogative Charles the First gave away when he assented to the Act of Perpetuity in passing of which if he shew'd little Policy they shew'd less gratitude in making so bad an use of so redundant a Grace But if the King will give away his Prerogative who can help it And if He will give the Parliament leave to sit as long as they please he gives away the only Antidote against their pretence of priviledge For though the King cannot determine of their priviledges so as to sentence this to be one and that not Yet he can do as much as this comes to he can prorogue or dissolve the Parliament whenever he sees reason for it and that puts an end both to them and their Priviledges And this is the incomparable Constitution of our Government If it were otherwise there lay a gap open either for arbitrary power on the King's side or for usurpation on the Parliament's For if the King might determine what were the Power and Priviledges of Parliament we might soon have a Parliament of Paris and if They might sit as long as they please they would even be the high and mighty States of Holland and the King but a Stadtholder or if you will a Staff-holder But 't is best as 't is and so long as the King shall be so wise as to keep what is his own and so gracious as to desire no more 't is impossible it should be otherwise on one side or t'other And therefore to make a Cuckow 's song of Fourty one may indeed betray something of your own nature but it signifies no more to the purpose you Chant it than baculus in angulo Obs Come Sir you are too sharp upon me But the King 's well holp up in the mean time If the Parliament will entrench on the Prerogative or will not do what He would have them He can only dissolve them and there 's all his mends What 's the King the better for being able to prevent their doing any mischief if he cannot get them to do what he sees necessary for the maintenance of the Government I am for Parliaments that are subjects as well together as asunder for a House of Commons that will do the bus'ness they were Call'd for and the bus'ness they were Sent for N. 135. Herac. Truly as to their doing what they are Sent for I believe the Whigs will not be much against it But then I doubt if they do no more the King would many
times come short of Money For the greater number of the Electors who are they that send them do commonly as most other men do love their money so well that they care not how little of that they part with nor how saving a bargain they make for removal of their grievances And as for other things besides raising of Money I do not believe that any of us Tories do much care for their receiving or following the Instructions of those that chuse them ever since the Members that were sent to Oxford were documented by their Electors For if they could have been able to have accomplish'd what they were sent for our hopes had been totally ruin'd by the Bill of Exclusion 'Pray therefore let 's hear no more of doing what they are sent for And as for their doing what they are Call'd for I Mr. Whig do wish with all my heart that they might alwaies see it reasonable to comply with the King's demands and follow his directions but yet I would leave Them a judgement of discretion to consult whether such demands are reasonable and such directions adviseable to be follow'd Obs Well if they be the Judges of that the King is like to be finely serv'd Herac. And if they be not Liberty and Propertv are finely secur'd For if the King 's dictates must be follow'd and he may dictate what he please all Acts of Parliament will be but Orders of the King in the Great Council of the Kingdom and the like Orders in the Privy Council might e'en as well pass for Acts of Parliament How now Monsieur why so blank Well there 's something more than ordinary in these Whigs for while I have been but personating one methinks I have spoken more reason than ever I did in my life But let Whig and his Reasons both be damn'd for they have made me as dull as a dog Come let 's have a Brimmer to the confusion of all Whigs and their Reasons for that 's the readiest way to confute them And now am I Heraclitus again the Merry-weeping Tory. What therefore I shall say from henceforward take as from a Friend not an Opponent And in the first place I wonder at your imprudence that while you undertook to wipe off the suspicion of a Tory-plot you have rather confirm'd the belief of it For he that could not be convinc'd of it by that Pamphlet nor the notoriousness of the thing it self must needs make no doubt of it when he has read your Observations if he will but do you the honour to believe you the mouth of our Party Come Sir the Whigs and Jesuits are wiser in their generation than we Loyal Protestants Charge them with a Plot and though the thing be as plain as the Nose on one's face they 'l deny and forswear it even at the Gallows But you now go about to traverse the business and to justifie the crime nay give matter of new Evidence against your self Obs Why you know the matter of fact could not be deny'd Herac. Then you should have taken no notice of the charge at all and so our party could have vapour'd it out as if you slighted it for it's impertinency but now you have given it a cast of your Office to so little purpose you cannot imagine how they are dampt 'Pray what does it signifie to quibble upon the Title page to make Misopappas signifie a hater of the King when you know it means a hater of the Pope or at worst of the Bishops for a Pope and a Bishop are all one in the Greek Then how weak a justification of our arraigning the two last Parliaments is it to say that the Whigs vilifie the late Long Parliament If they do well in that why do you find fault if ill why do we imitate them nay so far exceed them for you say they scandalize but about two hundred of that Parliament and that for being Pensioners but we Have at all while we condemn them so much for what they Voted Nemine contradicente And again how weak is your allegation of fourty one to prove that these Parliaments are guilty of what we accuse them If those were Rebels does it follow that others would raise such a Rebellion if they could nay or could if they would 'Pray remember what I said before when I was Mr. Whig In the next place you are but too injurious to his Majesty to fasten on Him all the Miscarriages and male-administrations of his Ministers as if it were impossible for the King that has so many servants to have a good opinion of and commit a trust to a bad man Nay and you stretch this so high or rather so low that a fellow cannot reflect on halfa dozen Printers Hawkers but presently you cry the King is wounded through their sides If you hold on I believe a man shall not call a Scullion wench of the King's Kitchin dirty Slut or his Corn-cutter pitiful fellow but you 'l call it arraigning the Government You know 't is impossible the King should attend all the affairs of State himself He must necessarily see many things with other folks eyes and hear them with others ears and therefore if things be misrepresented to him he may indeed act otherwise than he would if he were better inform'd but He is so far from being worthy to be blam'd for such acting that those that were the evil advisers ought rather to be doubly punished partly for the thing it self of which they are truly the Authors and much more for abusing his Majesty by their evil suggestions But enough of that Then as to the Bill of Excluston you know the Author of the Tory-plot had taken some pains to prove it lawful just and necessary now one would have thought if you would have meddl'd with it at all you should have endeavour'd to prove it unlawful unjust and inconvenient Inf. Cl. Why he has suggested Arguments enough That supposing it unlawful the Parliament cannot pass it that there is no other rule of Obedience to Magistrates but that given by Christ and his Apostles and that the primitive Christians never voted for a Bill of Exclusion Herac. Good Mr. Parson these are only Arguments to persuade your Devotionists As for your beaux Esprits they are not at all moved at them and the perverse Infidel Whigs as little as they But to go on When we were charged with a design of getting Parliaments laid aside how do you excuse us marry by making the business much worse justifying our suggesting to the King that a Factious Multitude will make a Factious Choice and therefore he ought to have a care of such a House of Commons there may be danger in 't N. 131. Just as if you had drawn up the Address from Devonshire or had taken the hint from thence who crave leave to observe that our Corporations and Boroughs who have so great a share in the Government are now the Nurseries and Seminaries of Faction Sedition and