or for want of many things they now exact of all Christians for the compleating and moulding of them into Church bodies pro perly so called for we read That in the Church of Jerusalem they were perfectly converted and were Saints indeed and yet that for some wants they made no separation rent or schisme from their brethren but that they dayly met together in their publick Assemblies as in the Temple and in Solomons Porch and from house to house openly and that in all love and charity with one accord And yet if my brother Burton and the Independents may be beleeved they had neither Deacons nor Elders nor distinction of Officers nor a great part of Discipline nor many other of their requisites So that from the pious and godly example of those glorious Saints I learn this lesson That rents and scismes are not to be made amongst brethren for some failings in any Churches yea though there be some defects not onely in Officers and Members but a very want of Officers themselves and of a good Discipline also in any Church or Churches and that they that do make rents and divisions have a great deal to answer for Withall I learn that it may be a true Church though there be a failing in Discipline and a want of some chiefe Officers and Members For my brother Burton acknowledgeth That the Church at Jerusalem was a formed Church although it wanted both Officers and Discipline and all those things they now require of all such as desire to be made Members in their new Congregations And therefore if this he now preacheth be solid and orthodox Divinity and if he may be credited in what he writeth as there was at that time no just ground of separation from their publike Assemblies for want of those things so there is now in these our dayes no just cause of separation from our Assemblies if there be indeed a reall want of discipline and Church Officers which we might long since have injoyed had not he and his brethren hindred our happy begun Reformation Especially I say we ought not to separate when there is no failing or want in any dominative or fundamentall pointe of Religion necessary to salvation and where all the counsell of God requisite to eternall happinesse is dayly publikely taught in every one of our Congregations and Churches all which the Independents themselves do acknowledge we want not Besides it is granted by all orthodox Divines that Discipline makes not for the esse but the bene esse of a Church Yea the Independents themselves hold That Officers in a Church make not for the esse but the bene esse of it as the New Lights from the Summer Islands apparently delucidate For they say Though the Officers all dye yet the Church ceaseth not to be a church But to return to the matter in hand Whereas my brother Burton affirmeth that the Church at Jerusalem wanted Discipline and that it had not Deacons at first and that the Churches were not brought forth to full perfection in one day and that their very constitution had a graduall growth I maintain that in all he asserteth he is not onely exceeding erroneous and ignorant but understandeth not the very doctrine of the Independents who are all against him in those his assertions for they all acknowledg and in express words affirm it in their writings that all the Officers of the church were virtually in the Apostles saying they were Pastors Teachers ruling Elders and Deacons c. And therefore they wanted neither Deacons nor Elders if their concession be true nor any church Officers which is point blank against my brother Burton his opinion They confesse likewise that all the Apostles and every one of them had the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven that is the power of order and jurisdiction viz the key of knowledg and authority And therefore they had also in the church of Jerusalem that part of Discipline of casting out corrupt Members They acknowledge in like manner that all the Apostles had equall power amongst themselves and that they had authority over all the churches as having the care of all the churches who were committed to their charge and that they left both the Presbyters and people in their several churches to the exercise of all their particular rights impeached neither of them of their liberties And they do also confess that as Paul by his own authority did excommunicate Hymeneus and Alexander 1 Tim. 1. ver 20. and others so might the other Apostles have done if they had had the like occasion given them and might have put any church not only in mind of their duty and reproved them for their neglect of Discipline but have injoyned and commanded them also to have put it in execution as both Paul did the church of Corinth and Saint John the seven churches of Asia which were all well constituted and well and perfect formed churches by their first constitution and brought forth to full perfection in one day so as they had no need of a graduall growth as my brother Burton affirmeth All these things I say the Independents do accord unto And all reason will perswade any well grounded Christians That the church of Corinth was a perfect church at its first constitution before the incestuous person appeared in it and the same they will say of the other seven churches in Asia before the doctrine of the Nicolaiâ—tans and that of Baalam and Jezabell sprung up in them and before those luke-warme Laodiceans appeared and all the other offenders there spake of all the which were so far from adding any perfection to those churches as it was a deformity to them all to have such creatures and failings amongst them and it was reputed their great sinne to connive at them and suffer them to be amongst them and in their bowels which by their first constitution they had power to have cast out For it is well known that all those churches at their first plantation and founding had all of them their Presbyters and Elders and all other Members and Officers as consisting of Saints and had in all those severall churches both the power of order and jurisdiction and the power of the Keyes and this in their first constitution and therefore had no neede of a graduall growth but were all brought forth to full perfection the first day contrary to my brother Burtons doctrine And it is confessed likewise by the Independents and by my brother Burton himselfe That where there are Church Officers as a Pastor and Teacher with an Elder or two and a Deacon and where there are a few visible Saints if they amount but to the number of twenty nay if they be but ten or twelve gathered together according to their method that there is a compleat formed Church where Christ is set up as King upon his Throne and that this Church is clothed with Christs power and honoured with his presence the which
Which the Lord preserve his people from and put it into the hearts of the great Councell of the Kingdome and all cordiall and understanding men to oppose with all their might as they love the peace of Church and State and the establishing of the true religion in these three Kingdomes and the propagation of the Gospell to the worlds end all the which the whimsicall opinion of Independency will hinder which indeed tendeth to no other end but to bring in an Anarchy and a confusion of all things and the setting up of Athisme or a Pantheon of all Religions to the great dishonour of God and the disturbance of our Church and State and the alienating of the nighest allyes one from another and to the distraction of all men as our small and little experience of that way hath by wofull tryall and dayly experience taught us And this shall suffice to have spoke of the second branch of their definition in discovering the absurdities of it and the impossibilities of attaining such a church as that sets down and the great inconveniences with the unsupportable bondage that would necessarily ensue upon it to all such as should subject themselves to such a Government as the Independents would bring into the world I now come to the third part of their definition viz. Their particular explicite holy Covenant which they not onely call the form of a Church but make it an holy Ordinance which it cannot be for the reasons above specified as having no warrant from God our father nor no example in any of the primitive Churches who had no other but the generall Covenant which all the Presbyterians allow as it is authorized by God himselfe though they reject that particular explicite Covenant brought in by the Independents as being an humane Ordinance which all Christians in Gods service ought to abhor as not commanded and injoyned unto them by the King of his Church Christ Jesus whose voyce onely they are bound to hear and who alone they are to set up as King upon his Throne who is their Lawgiver and mighty Councellor and the sole governour of his Church and Kingdome And should it be accorded and granted to the Independents That this their particular explicite Covenant were indeed the forme of a Church as they would perswade the people then all the primitive and Apostolicall Churches as well as all the reformed Churches at this day in the world besides their own congregations were not true formed Churches which were a great wickednesse and impiety to aver and maintain But besides this their unwarrantable Covenant which they make the forme of a Church they require of all such as will enter into Church fellowship with them many other pretty things which they hold not onely requisite but Gods Ordinance also as First That they should walk some weeks moneths and perhaps years with them for a proof of their conversation and for the tryall of their behaviour and manners and except they can please the whole church there can be no admittance at last Secondly after their good liking of their carriage they injoyn them to make a publike confession of their faith and if that dislikes them they cannot be admitted Thirdly after this they require of them to bring in the evidences of their true conversion as the time when the place where and the manner how all which if the congregation approve not of as sufficient they cannot be yet admitted Lastly they that are to be admitted must have the consent and approbation of the whole congregation both of men and women or else by their Charter they cannot be admitted into Church-communion with them All these things as I am able to prove they require in some of their Congregations before any can be admitted as joynt members amongst them never a one of the which conditions or injunctions not withstanding hath either precept or president for it in all Gods holy Word And therefore it is an unsufferable flavery that they impose upon the people besides this their particular explicet covenant which they make the form of the Church which should they onely require without any of their o'her grolleries were a bondage too unsufferable for in that their Covenant as I have been informed by some of them when in familiar manner and in the time of our friendship I desired to know the method of admitting of their joynt members and especially what the Covenant imported and what they promised in it and what by it they were tyed unto and for answer they replyed that three things were contained in this their holy explicite Covenant First That they promise and by this Covenant binde themselves to each other in all Church fellowship as to be helpefull one to another in all things and especially to their Pastors and to stand one by another without desertion of each other and that in the greatest dangers and difficulties and to yeeld obedience and willing subjection and conformity not onely to those truths that are now imbraced and entertained amongst them but also willingly to submit themselves to all such New Light for the future that God shall by his Word and by the Ministry of their Pastors discover unto the Church This as I have been informed by the Independents is the first thing they require of those that are to be admitted as members and which they promise and Covenant to performe The second thing contained in the Covenant is That if they be single persons either batchelors or maidens widdows or widdowers they may not marry without the consent of the Church The third thing contained in this their holy Covenant is That they may not remove their habitations and dwellings though never so advantagious unto them for their traffick and tradings into any remote place from them without the consent of the Congregation and some other things there are comprised under this Covenant which they keep among themselves as arcana regni as secrets of their Kingdome all the which if they be seriously looked into contain in them so many mysteries of Iniquity yet all of them exceedingly advantageous unto themselves they all tending to the strengthning of their partie and the more corroborating their combination as those that are judicious have well observed But were there no other slavery and bondage in their whole religion but this of their covenant and of the appertinances belonging thereto as amongst others their blind obedience there was never yet a greater yoak of servitude put upon poor people under Antichrist himself and the truth is as the Papists oft times scoured over old holy dayes with new ceremonies and solemnities and put them upon the people to be observed as new ones even so the Independents furbush over old errors with new varnish to make them more specious to the deluded people and bring them in as new truths and set them up as new Lights when they are nothing else but ancient errours and very Popery it selfe in a new attire as
and the Doctor might as well have affirmed that the Brethren even the whole Church might say it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us Thus Master Knollys disputeth not onely against all sound Divinity but against all reason whiles hee would make all the people to have equall suffrage and voices or votes with the Elders in that Councell and therefore Master Knollys shall never be my Master who had hee known any thing concerning governments either in Church or State or had hee ever read any thing concerning Councels in either hee would never have so argued For Councels in all governments consist of peculiar and select men who for their Gravity Wisedome Learning and their inveterate experience are made choyce of and set apart for that purpose and to whom the rule and government of the Kingdomes and Countries wherein they live is committed so that the ordinary people are not to intrude or intermeddle in those affaires whose place it is only to obey and to yeeld subjection to their Ordinances and they that would goe about or indeavour to change this order appointed by God himselfe would speedily bring confusion upon themselves and others and as it is and ever has beene in the matters and affaires of the State and in the Kingdomes of this world so it is in the Kingdome of Jesus Christ which is his Church all things are to be managed with order and decency and by such men only as upon whose shoulders God hath laid that government and into whose hands he hath committed the Keyes those ensignes of authority now when Christ the King of his Church hath given the Keyes to his Apostles and to the Presbyters only and to be continued in their hands to the end of the world they only are to manage the affaires government of the Church to the consummation of all things whose calling and place it is to rule and govern them as who have the care of the churches who are the prime men in authority in them for the ruling and governing of them and the people are onely to obey them and their Ordinances in the Lord and are not to intermeddle in the government of the Church or have their voices or votes in matters of government as hath beene often proved And therefore Master Knollys in saying That the Brethren even the whole Church the multitude how many soever the Doctor can make of them were present as well as the Presbyters and had their voices there is altogether mistaken in his commentary exposition for he by Brethren understanding that the whole Church the whole multitude of Believert men women and children then in Jerusalem for so his words doe import were present in that Councell speakes hee knows not what for it is most certaine by the holy Scripture that the tenth part of the Believers that were in Ierusalem could not have met together in any one place and therefore all the many ten thousands that were there could not possibly have come together in one Synod or Councell and besides the impossibility of it all men know that the Members of Synods and such as have their voices there are Presbyters and Ministers of the Gospel only and such as are sent Commissioners and delegated out of the severall Presbyteries to those Councels for the right ordering and well managing of the government in them and this is their calling and for the other people as the secular Magistrates Masters of Families Wives Children and Servants they are every one of them to continue in that calling and statiou God had placed them in 1 Cor. 7. and all under authority are therein to abide and every one of them to follow their particular negotiations and affaires yeelding obedience in their severall places to those that are over them and women especially by a statute Law from heaven 1 Cor. 14. are injoyned silence in all the Churches and are commanded if they have any doubts to aske their Husbands at home and to be subject and obedient unto them they are not to vote it in Synods neither were women ever that I have read or heard of before such Teachers as Master Knollys and his Fraternity appeared in the world permitted to have their voices in the Churches and Synods which when it is an apparent transgression of the Law of God I am confident that the Apostles and Presbyters then assembled in the Councell of Ierusalem would not have suffered any women to have brake the Lawes of God before their faces and therefore I may with good authority out of Gods Word conclude that there was not a woman in that Synod for the Scripture saith the Synod consisted of brethren and not sisters who had never the Keyes committed to them or any voice there as Mr Knollys vainly asserâ—eth and therefore for women they were not there so that there was not the whole multitude how many soever the Doctor can make them when the sisters are exempted there being none but brethren Besides it was against another statute law from heaven made by the Apostle Paul in the 14. of the Romans ver 1. that weak brethren should be admitted to doubtfull disputations who saith For those that are weak in the Faith receive but not unto doubtfull disputations or ambiguity of disputes for they being not well setled and grounded in Religion would have either been more imbittered against one another or filled more full of scruples then resolved as dayly experience teacheth all men who see what a confusion such paultry fellows as Master Knollys is have already brought inâ—o the world by admitting their weak brethren to their doubtfull disputations and vain janglings uâ—on all occasions Neither will I ever beleeve for my part that the Apostles â—ould be transgressors of their own Laws and teach one thing and practice the contrary now when Saint Paul had made that law that the weak brethren should not be admitted to doubtfull disputations shall we think that the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem would have admitted the whole multitude of all the beleevers amongst the which there were so many weak brethren into the Synoâ— to those disputes and so have violated this law and statute from heaven especially can any rationall man believe this when they were not at that time so well acquainted with their Christian liberty For this would have tended to nothing but a confusion of all things would have put the people in an uâ—rore as is evident from very good reason for if many years after the preaching of the Gospell and the free grace of God and the teaching of them their Christian liberty they remained still so zealous for the observation of the ceremoniall law of Moses as we may read in the 21. chapter of the Acts that they out of a distempered zeal would have destroyed Paul and onely because they heard that hâ— taught the Gentiles not to observe the law of Moses how would all those weak brethren have been inraged against all the Apostles
let them ask their husbands at home for it is a shame for women to speak in the Church And what Saint Paul writ to this Church of Corinth he writ to all Churches and proclames that what he writ to them were the commandments of the Lord ver 37. so that God had commanded that the women should not speak in the Church and saith that it is a shame they should and yet in these our dayes in many of the new congregations they have their voices in choosing of officers and admitting of Members and have all of them Peters Keys at their Girdle and make learned parts of speech in the congregation and dispute questions and debate of matters and give their reasons con pro as it is credibly reported and others of them set â—orth and print learned Treatises in polemicall Divinity with great applause and admiration of the Independent Ministers who cite their authority and quote them in their writings as classicall authors to the shame of the Nation and ludibry of Religion and howsoever there is not any that shall more honour the truly vertuous and pious of that sex than my selfe yet I must confesse when I see how far they become transgressors of the law of God and do those things that the holy Apostle hath not onely forbidden but proclamed a shame I cannot but exceedingly blame them and those Ministers that allow of and approve of such rebellion against God and nature And as if it had been the speciall care in the Apostle to prevent this evill of womens intermedling in matters of the Church he foreseeing the confusion that would be brought in upon it In his first Epistle to Timothy and in him to all Ministers to whom the Government of the Church was committed he gives him direction how to behave himselfe in the house of God which is the Church of the living God in chap. 2. verse 11. 12. hee saith Let the women learne in silence with all subjection for I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurpe authority over the man but to be in silence for Adam was first made then Eve and Adam was not deceived but the woman being deceived was in the transgression c. Here the Apostle againe and againe twice in these few words enjoyns them silence in the church and imposes upon them subjection and obedience I suffer not saith he a woman to teach or to usurpe authority over the man but to be in silene and he giveth his reasons of this his command because saith he Adam was first made not by the woman nor of the woman but the contrary and therefore shee may usurpe no authority over the masculine sex especially in Gods matters and she is to be the disciple of the man and not the man her scholar and therefore that superiority that the God of order had established upon the man in the first creation hee doth now re-establish upon him againe in his holy Word after all things through sinne had beene disordered and confused and commands the woman to be both subject and silent especially in the Church Another reason of this his command is because the woman was first in the transgression and was the cause of Adams fall as hee accuses her and her disputing and voycing of it then brought confusion upon all man-kind and for this her so doing S. Paul concludes for ever hereafter that she ought to hold her peace be in subjection to her husband and ought to learne in silence at home but more especially in the Church for if they come to voice it once againe in the Church as Eve brought confusion upon man-kind by her disputation and reason so these with their loquacity and babble and confusion of voyces will bring in a new Babel into the Church and State as they have prettily well already begun to doe Saint Paul saith I suffer not a woman to teach nor to usurpe authority over the man but to be in silence Here the Apostle as in the place above cited out of 1 Cor. chap. 14. commands them silence and permits them not to speake and expressely forbids them to usurpe authority over the man that is the viril sex Now I appeale unto any understanding creature whether or no to make large parts of speech in the Church as many of them upon occasions doe and dispute and give their reasons con pro be not to speak in the Church and whether to have their voices in either admitting of Members or Officers or in the casting of them out be not to usurpe authority over the man for all the world knows that they that have the power in their hands of either admitting of any into the fellowship or communion of the Church or of hindring their coming in or have their voices for the casting of them out when they are received exercise and usurpe authority over those they so deal with and there-fore they do against the expresse prohibition of the Apostles and all those women that have usurped this authority and all those Ministers that have permitted them so to do or taught this doctrine unto them are all guilty of great contumacy against God and ought seriously to repent for this their temerity and rebellion and it will be the imortall honour of those women that have not intermedled and if there be not some speedy course taken by authority to forbid such disorder we may promise nothing to the Church and whole Kingdome but confusion It hath ever been observed that Hermaphrodite councels in any Kingdome or Country when women that are subjects intermeddle in government and matters of state that that Kingdome and Country is very crased and not far from ruine and destruction and we need not look into many ages or countries for presidents of this kind and if Hermaphrodite counsels in Kingdoms have ever been so fatall unto them what may any man think in time will become of this Church and Kingdome when the women have gotten Peters Keys at their girdle and have their voices in many congregations and a power of ordering and disposing of things in Church affairs Certainly nothing but confusion can be expected for this their doing is against the expresse command of God who is the God of order and injoyns the contrary Yea it is not onely against the law of God but against the very law of nature and the practice of all Nations for never was it yet heard of in any well governed City or Commonwealth or Kingdome that women that were subjects had their voices in choosing officers or Burgesses or making of freemen or disfranchising of them or were permitted so much as to sit in counsell with them much lesse to rule and give laws to others out of their own houses And therefore as it is a thing odious to God and man and that which is a shame to that sex it ought to be cast out of all wel-governed Churches and States and as the women ought to know their
do they not as they falsly accuse them first prove them to be enemies of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom and not a godly and an honest Presbyterie and then as in duty they are all bound earnestly in the first place seeke to God that he would send faithfull Labourers into his Vineyard and secondly to authority that they would set up an honest and a godly Presbyterie and give unto them full power that they may be as so many Angels to gather out of Christs Kingdom every thing that offends according to the Word of God which all the knowing godly Presbyterians Ministers and people do heartilydesire that so no truly tender consciences may be scandalized this I say were the duty of them all and not to make suppositions needlesse requests to those that have neither power nor authority to doe it But the Independents are so farre from this that they have made it their designe hitherto to hinder the worke of Reformation by raysing up questions continually as being alwayes unsatisfied and by seeking to stirre up the people in their preachings and Pamphlets against the Presbyterians and that meerly to oppose retard and keepe off a setled government in the Church of God saying what haste is there of that and in the meane time they fish in our troubled waters and yet their strongest and most effectuall baits wherewith they allure and catch the poore silly fishes I meane the simple and unstable people is this to tell them that there is not any Church government setled and that as they have waited many years already so they may waite as many more and be as farre off from Discipline and a through Reformation as they now are saying withall if they doe waite to have a Presbyterie set up what if it be not a good one and what if they have not power to gather out of Christs Kingdome every thing that offends affirming that as it is uncomfortable so it is absolutely sinfull to live without the Ordinances which amongst the Saints and none but Beleevers in their Congregations they may injoy Thus whiles the Independents doe labour and endeavour with all their might to oppose the setling of Church government they make the want thereof the most powerfull and prevalent Engine and Argument to draw the people into their way and upon the occasion of these Interrogatories or queries and of these Ifs and An ds of my Brother Burton and his confedertes I shall set downe some of their Independent practises well known to many thousands in this Kingdome besides my selfe by which their ingratitude both to God and men and the restâ—esnesse of these mens spirits will the better appeare to all such as are not blinded with a previous or prejudicated opinion So that all men of discerning spirits by beholding their juglings and unwarrantable proceedings may learne to shun them and to take heed of them and all their by-wayes It is well knowne that in the time of the Prelats power the removall of a very few things would have given great content unto the most scrupulous consciences for I my selfe can speake thus much not only concerning the conscientious Professors here in England but the most rigid Separatists beyond the Seas with many of which I had familiar acquaintance at home and abroad and amongst all that ever I conversed with I never heard them till within these twenty yeares desire any other thing in Reformation but that the Ceremonies might be removed with their Innovations and that Episcopacy might be regulated and their boundlesse power and authority taken from them and that the extravagances of the High Commission Court might be annihilated and made void and that there might through the Kingdom be a preaching Ministery every where set up This was all that the most that I was then acquainted with desired in the Reformation of Church matters Indeed within this sixteene yeares I met with some that desired a more full Reformation and yet if they might have injoyed but that I now mentioned they would have beene very thankfull to God and authority and have sate downe quietly But yet I say the extreamest extent of their desires reached but to the removall of all the Ceremonies and Innovations the taking away of the Service Booke and the putting downe of the High Commission Court which was called the court Christian though it was rather Pagan and the removall of the Hierarchy root and branch and the setting up and establishing of a godly Presbyterie through the Kingdome this was I say all and the uttermost Reformation that was required by the most scrupulous men then living that I knew yea I can speake thus much in the presence of God that Master Robinson of Leiden the Pastor of the Brownist Church there told mee and others who are yet living to witnesse the truth of what I now say that if hee might in England have injoyed but the liberty of his Ministry there with an immunity but from the very Ceremonies and that they had not forced him to a subscription to them and imposed upon him the observation of them that hee had never separated from it or left that Church This I can depose so that all men may see the very dispensing with the ceremonies would then have given great content to the most austere professors how much more may any man suppose would they have sate down satisfied if but the very ceremonies then might have bin removed Surely if the Prelats had not beene infatuated and had they but in those things a little connived and would have abated somewhat of their rigour for ought I know they might have never been questioned but they might have injoyed all their honours and greatnesse and whatsoever they could have desired and that with the good liking of all the people had they I say but dispensed with those needlesse vanities and had they but favoured honest and godly Ministers and set up Lights I meane good Preachers in the darke places and corners of the Kingdome they would have beene beloved and reverenced of all men and no man would have envied their Magnificence yea I am most assured had they but favoured good and godly men the whole Kingdome would have beene their friends and whereas they all at last petitioned against them they would have supplicated in their behalfe that they might still have continued in their authority But through their owne pride and from an ambition of Lording it over their brethren and by their tyrannicall practices and licentious living they have brought confusion upon themselves and beene one of the principall causes of all the miseries and distractions and of all the blood-shed that the three Kingdomes are now involved with and for ought I can discerne our Independent Predicants now treading in their steps and seeking to be the sole and onely men and to set up their new government which is more groundlesse then that of the Prelates if the Lord of his infinite power and goodnesse prevent