William Which Anselmus in his Epistle to Pope Paschalis complaineth of in this sort The king requireth of me that vnder pretence of right I should yeeld to his pleasures which are repugnant to the law will of God For he woulde not haue the Pope receiued nor appealed vnto in his Land without his cōmaundement neither that I should write to him or receiue answere from him or that I should obey his decrees In all these thinges and such like if I demaunded aduise all the Bishops of his Realme denied to giue me any but according to the kings pleasure After that I asked licence of him to goe to Rome vnto the Sea Apostolike the king answered that I offended against him for the onely asking of leaue and offered me that either I should satisfie him for the same as a trespasse by assuring him neuer to aske this leaue any more nor to appeale to the Pope at anytime hereafter or else that I should speedilie depart out of his Land And after in the time of king Henry the 1. when the said Archbishop was returning home frome Rome the kings Atturney in his masters name forbadde him to enter the Land vnlesse he would faithfully promise him to keepe all the customs both of William conqueror his father William Rufus his brother And K. Henry as soone as he perceiued the Pope the Archbishop to continue their former opinion against his liberties presently seased the Bishoprike into his hands and arested all Anselmus goods The like successe had Thurstane Elect of Yorke who gate leaue of K. Henry the 1. to go to the councell of Rhemes giuing his faith that he would not receiue consecration from the Pope comming to the Synode by his liberal gifts as the fashion is wan the Romanes fauor by their meanes obtained to be consecrated at the Popes handes which as soone as the king of England knew he forbad him to come within his dominion To this other such liberties of the crown K. Hēr the 2. not long after made al his Bishops Nobles to be sworne in a generall assembly at Claredon In the yeare of our Lord 1164. K. Henrie being at Claredon in the presence of the Archbishops Bishops Abbots Priors Earls Barons great men of the realme there was made a rehearsal or acknowledgemēt of some part of the Customes liberties of his Ancestors to wit of K. Henrie his grandfather others which ought to be kept in his realme obserued of all to auoide the dissention discord that often happened between the clergie the kings Iustices nobles of the realm Amongst the which custams being 16. in number these were two No Archbishop Bishop nor any other person of the realme may go out of the land without the kings leaue For appeales if any be made they shal come frō the Archdeacō to the bishop frō the Bishop to the Archbishop if the Archbishop faile in doing iustice it shal be lawful to come last of al to the king that by his cōmandement the matter may bee ended in the Archbishops court so that no mā shal proceede to appeale any farther without the kings consent This acknowledging recording of the customes liberties of the crown the Archbishops Bishops Abbots Priors yea the clergie with the Earles Barons all the Nobles sware by word of mouth faithfully promised should be kept obserued to the king his heires for euer simply without fraud Phi. The selfsame writer that you bring dispraiseth those customes calleth them wicked detestable Theo. His report is the stronger against you in that he was a Monke a misliker of those lawes his iudgemēt against vs the weaker For these princely dignities had preuailed from the Conquest til that time were in that age yeelded sworne vnto by the Bishops clergy of his realm are in themselues if you list to discusse them agreeable both to the sacred scriptures ancient councels notwithstanding some Friers fauorers of the Romish See did then doe now to their power withstand them Ph. S. Thomas of Canterbury withstood them vnto death chose rather to lose his life than to yeeld to any such customes The. Do you make him a Saint for resisting his prince or else for sauing certaine lewde priests from the due punishment of the princes lawes Ph. I count him a martyr for spending his blood in defence of the church liberties The. Their rage that slew him I do not commend because it was done by priuate violence not by publike authority but his stout stāding in a peeuish quarrel against his oth against his prince to purchase impunity for homicides other hainous offendors against the common course of law iustice I thinke in these daies you dare not openly defend for feare least the world cry shame on you Ph. You charge him with more thā you can proue The. I charge him with no more than your friendes his are forced to confesse Th. Archbishop of Canter when he had granted these 16. lawes which this superstitious monk calleth wicked detestable promised with an oth to keep them examining diligently that which he had rashly done afflicted himself grieuously sent straightway messengers to the court of Rome to signifie the grief of the church his own asked absolution from the band which he had vnwisely entred into which also he obtained The same yeare K.H. meaning as he said to punish with due seuerity the disorders of al sorts affirmed it to be against reason that he should deliuer to the bishop such clergie men vnpunished as were conuicted before his Iustices of any publike hainous crime And therfore he decreed that whō the Bishops sound guiltie in the presence of the kings iustice they should degrade and deliuer to the kings court to be punished The Archbishop held on the contrary that they ought not to be punished by laymē after they were degraded by the Bishop lest they shold be twise punished for one thing The occasiō of this strife was giuē by one Philip de Broc a canō of Bedford which being indicted of murder spake reprochfully to the Iudge which when he could not deny before the Archbishop he was depriued of his prebend exiled the land for 2. yeares The Archbishop seeing the liberties of the Church now troden vnder foote without the kings knowledge tooke ship intended to go to Rome but the wind being against him he was driuē back to the shore And immediatly vpō that when he was called to accompt for the whole receits that came to his handes whiles he was Chauncelor of England least he should vniustly be cōdemned he appealed to the See of Rome vnder paine of excōmunication forbad as well the Bishops as all the nobles to giue sentence against him that was there both their father and their Iudge The Nobles
should bee worthier And for the execution of this sentence the Pope wrote to Philip the most mightie king of Fraunce that in the remission of all his sinnes hee should vndertake this matter and after the expulsion of king Iohn hee and his heires for euer should bee rightfull â— owners of the kingdom of England He wrote likewise to al the Nobles Captaines soldiers of diuerse Nations that they should crossigne themselues to the deposing of the king of England and following the king of Fraunce their leader in this viage reuenge the iniurie of the vniuersall church Thus your holy father set kinges togither by the eares for the remissâ—on of their sinnes and turned the warfare that was prouided against the Turke â—o pursue his priuate quarels with christian Princes like the Prince of darkenesse giueth kingdoms that bee none of his to them and their heires foreuer And your blessed Bishops of Canterburie London and Elie that first made sute at Rome to haue this impietie decreed against their Prince in their owne persons to shew their christian and obedient dispositions plied the king of France other Potentates to hasten them with al hostilitie towards this land and would needes be both the messengers and ringleaders in that action The next yeare Stephen of Canterburie William of London and Elias of Elie returned from the court of Rome gathering a Councel on the other side of the Sea solemnly published the iudgement that was giuen against the king of England in the presence of the French king and his Bishops and his clergie and communaltie That done they inioyned the king of France and all the rest on the behalfe of the Pope for the remission of their sinnes that they all ioyning togither shoulde inuade the Realme of England in hostile manner and thrust king Iohn from his throne and substitute a worthier by the Apostolike authoritie It was not enough for them vnnaturally to procure this pestilent inuasion against their prince but they themselues must assist it with all their might and be the chiefe doers in it least ages after them should be ignorant how zealous they were for their * backes and bellies against their lawful and soueraigne Magistrate Phi. Being deposed he was no Magistrate Theo. When you * proue the Pope may depose Princes then pronounce king Iohn no Magistrate till you so doe giue vs leaue to tell you that this was a cursed presumption in the Pope and a more cursed rebellion in the Bishops Phi. The Realme of France you see tooke the offer and thereby confessed the Pope might dispose Princes Theo. A kingdome will make men doe much The king of Fraunce was led thereto not with religion but with ambition to get the crowne of England for Lodouike his sonne Where you see the desire which Princes had to inlarge their dominions made them regard the Popes censures against their neighbours which otherwise in themselues they did mightily despise as appeareth by that which fel out not long after betweene Philip the Faire and Boniface the eight Where the king of Fraunce resolutely withstood the Pope with all his interdictions and depositions and vsed his person in the end very coursely as I before haue touched in place where vppon occasion Princes to serue their turnes and to be reuenged of their enimies haue oftentimes backed and inforced the Popes iudiciall sentence against others which corrupt affection to man the Popes processe when it made for their purpose god hath punished in them by making him their master whom for lucre they serued as long as they gained By the enuie and enmity of Princes one against an other not by the lawes of God or examples of Christs church hath the Pope gotten the mastery of all Princes and so long as they wil inuade ech other at his teasing they shall neuer be free from his yoke By their helpe he became of a Bishop vnder them to be a Prince with them and by their dissentions of a Prince with them he is now Lord ouer them Take king Iohn for a paterne Had not the French king in hatred of king Iohn and hope of the crowne bin willing to heare of this match and wagered his men and mony for that prize the king of England had easily forced the Pope to some reasonable order But nowe seeing the whole Realme of Fraunce was in armes against him and his owne Lande likely to bee diuided within it selfe what maruell if he accepted rather any conditions at the Popes hands thaÌ„ he would suffer strangers that gaped after his kingdom to deuoure it Phi. Hee did wisely to submit himselfe hee had otherwise lost both rule life Theo. The Pope did as wickedly not to content himselfe with the kings submission and restitution of all that was detained but with a fine deuise to circumuent both parts and to get the kingdom for himselfe and his successors which was promised before to the French king and his heires Such cunning your holy father hath to set others to beat the bushe whiles hee doeth catch the birdes The king of Fraunce was led in a string to muster his men to rigge his shippes to bestow aboue threescore thowsande poundes for the preparation of the warre and was tolde hee shoulde haue for his labour pardon of all his sinnes forsooth and the crowne of England to him and to his for euer without faile when al was in readinesse and they waited nothing now but the French kings comming to go with the armie the Popes Legate stepped ouer before and shewed king Iohn what a power was leuied against him and how many of his own Nobles had purposed to forsake him and wanne him rather to holde his kingdome in fee farme of the Bishop of Rome for an easie rent than to leaue it a pray to the French king his people who would egerly spoile him of al. Upon which aduise the king consented to receiue the Archbishop and the rest of the exiles in peace to restore that to them which hee had seased of their liuinges to his vse to resigne his Crowne into the Popes handes and to take it againe as his liege man Secundary for a thowsand marke sterling by the yeare This done the Legate sayled back sent home the Bishops discharged the armie prohibited the French king to proceede any farther for so much as the king of England was newely become a tenant to the church of Rome With this sleight the Pope caught the crowne of England neither as I thinke was there euer any kingdome purchased with lesse charge and more speede thaÌ„ this was by the Pope Philand If the King woulde resigne it why shoulde not the Pope receiue it And in my conceit it was safer for the King to fall into the Popes handes to be rented than into the French Kinges to be spoiled Theo. That conceit which you speake of made the King of England content to be
admonisheth her Maiestie that she must answere to God not onely for things done by her commandement and knowledge but for whatsoeuer is done vniustly by her name or authoritie though she neuer knew thereof And yet here find great fault that her Highnes respecting her duetie to God and accompt that she must make denieth to beare the burden of your wicked abuses and poysoned errors which no prince can auoyde that permitteth your Masses and licenceth your rites because the seeing and suffering your impieties is a plaine consent and in manner an open communion with your vnfruitful workes of darknes To couer the shamefulnes of your demaund you produce certaine kingdoms and Countries affected in religion otherwise than you neuerthelesse content to suffer your seruice within their dominions If it were so what inferre you thence that wee safely may doe the like Your consequent is nothing worth their doings can be no discharge for vs we may not imitate the vices but the vertues of good men First proue they do well then vrge their example Your soueraigne perceiuing by Gods law what euery Prince ought to doe regardeth not what other Princes please to doe deseruing thereby the more thanks with God and praise with men for that in guiding her people she rather embraceth Christian pietie than irreligious policie But in deede you doe the Germanes and Heluetians wrong to quote their names for tolerating two religions The reformed Churches and States there bee so farre from admitting the full Dose of your heresies that by no meanes they can digest one dramme of your ceremonies the rest I thinke persisting in ignorance retaine your faith in the same fashion they were wont Amongst whom because many Dukes Landgraues Marquesses Counties yea Bishops Barons Abbots and Gentlemen haue regall iurisdiction within their precincts it is no newes to see many lawes vnder many Lordes and in diuers regiments diuers religions As for the kings of Suetia Bohemia Polonia not able to reduce their Countries to the profession of one faith neither we may reproue theÌ„ as negligent nor you can alledge them as indifferent since not their owne fault but other mens force keepeth theÌ„ from attempting any redresse by their princely power which the nobles restraine and Commons receiue with this prouiso that their accustomed freedome of conscience bee no way prohibited or interrupted Howbeit this kind of dealing in my iudgement is very captious When you should exemplifie two religions vnder one Magistrate you tell vs of seuerall rulers bent to maintaine their seuerall faiths in steede of shewing some that be willing to ioyne falsehoode with trueth you repeat such as can not auoyde that confusioÌ„ We looked for Princes which at least had bene Christians you make your supplie with infidels and heretiques To passe the loosenes of your first allegations what meaneth the lewdnes of your latter examples Is your cunning so small or purpose so vile that you bring Pagans and Arians to countenance your intention What follie what madnes was it for you to thinke that a Prince furnished with so rare gifts of wisedome learning and vertue woulde swarue from the steps of the famous and worthie kinges of Iudah to bee sorted with Saracens and repeale the lawes of religious and auncient Emperours to take part with the chiefest vpholders of Arianisme For if God him self had not decided the case but examples of men might beare some sway King Dauid was so farre from suffering the worshippe of any strange God within his Realme that he protesteth Their offerings of blood will I not offer neither make meÌ„tion of their names with my lippes When would he think you confirme their honour and seruice with his royall authoritie that thus disdayned them commoÌ„ humanitie The good kings of Iudah were fauoured and blessed of God for walking in the wayes of Dauid their father and purging the lande from all sacrifices and ceremonies not prescribed by Moses Law contrariwise Salomon was reiected for admitting other Gods to be serued within his dominioÌ„s besids the God of Israel though this toleration were graunted in respect of his owne wiues that were strangers and Ieroboams politike deuise to worship the same God in Dan and Bethel after a newe manner turned to the destruction of him selfe and his posteritie Which feareful effects of God wrath made Constantine to decree that al teÌ„ples of heretikes should bee without any denial ouerthrowen in no place publike or priuate from that day forward should their asseÌ„blies be suffered Iouianus refused to gouerâ—e those which were not found in faith I saith he that am a ChristiaÌ„ can not become your Emperour that are the disciples of IuliaÌ„ a renegate from Christ Gratian at his first entrie finding al places ful of Arians the lawes of Valens his vncle making for them fearing some generall tumult if he should preseÌ„tly distresse so many gaue leaue that euery ReligioÌ„ might haue Churches Oratories with freedom immunitie But being once selted ioyned with Theodosius he coÌ„manded that al heresies should keepe sileÌ„ce for euer as interdicted by Gods and mans law that none should any longer presume to teach or learne prophane doctrine The same prohibition did Arcadius and Honorius continue with great seueritie Let all heretickes vnderstand that all places must be taken from them as well Churches other open places of resort as priuate houses in all which let them be debarred from seruice both by night and by daie the Lord deputie to be fined an hundred pounds if he permit any such thing in sight or in secret Theodosius the yonger Valentinian his cosin comprising in a long beadrole sundrie sorts of hereticks appoint that no where within the Romane Empire their assemblies or praiers be suffered that all lawes made to prohibite their meetings should be reuiued stand good euerlastingly These we take to be meeter Presidents for Christian Princes than Turks Persians and Arians not worthy to be named in the Church of God much lesse to be followed But imagine the credit of your Arian Emperours were lesse than it is why should you peruert their actions why depraue you foure stories in sixe lines Constantius Valens were not enduced as you pretend of their naturall benignitie to yeeld Athanasius a Church in Alexandria they were compelled much against their wils of necessitie to suffer that which of curtesie they would neuer haue consented vnto For Constans the West Emperour denounced open hostilitie to Constantius his brother if Athanasius were not restored He saith Socrates driuen to this extremitie was aduised by the Bishops of his owne faction rather to grant Athanasius the regiment of a Church than to feele the smart of ciuill warres and Valens knowing that an infinite number in Aegypt and Alexandria fauoured Athanasius and fearing least a sedition kindled in those partes the people being vehement and fierce by nature might indanger his state ceased from molesting him
the truth of Christ which is all that Sainct Hierom saith what inferre you thence that Rome is now the like This illation commeth twelue hundred yeares too short of your antecedent and no waie dependeth vpon S. Hieroms wordes vnlesse you thinke that Rome now because shee beareth the same name must also chalenge the same vertues and praises which Rome so longe since both had and deserued which were verie ridiculous But is this all you will adde before you growe to your maine conclusion Phi. The greatest part is yet behinde For as I beganne whither shoulde we rather flie than to him whose Predecessors gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it after in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme often receiued harbored and releeued diuerse blessed Bishops and Priestes of our nation as well in the times of their prosperitie as persecution and who haue receiued againe of all our Princes Prelats and People all duetifull and correspondent honours and good Offices for so many hundred yeares togither when they and their dominions florished in much glorie and felicitie and were dreadfull to Gods enemies the Churches and their owne among whom hir Maiesties Father for his worthie writinges and doings against the Lutherans receiued the glorious and eternall title of Defender of the faith to him of whose Predecessors all the famous Fathers called for ayde comfort and counsell in their like distresses Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius and Marcus Chrysostom and Augustine of Innocentius Basill of Tiberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Milecius of Damasus Theodorete of Leo the great and all the rest of otherholy Popes as time and necessitie required to him whose Seat as Eusebius reporteth of Sainct Denys of Corinth did alwayes sende reliefe to all the Christians persecuted and condemned to mettalles and refreshed all the faithfull comming vnto it as the Parent the children to him who as he canonically succeedeth all these in Seate doctrine and dignitie so is inferiour to none farre passeth many and resembleth most Sainct Gregorie the great our Apostle in all charitie hospitalitie zeale and tendernesse of heart and affection toward the desolate namely our nation for the spirituall calamitie whereof the writer of this hath seene him weepe full hartily and hath heard him saie the goods of that holie Seat whereof he had the dispensation were for the poore afflicted domesticals of faith Finallie whither could we with more hope haue recourse than to him by whose bounteous goodnesse so manie Patriarches Bishops learned Gentlemen and Christians of all sortes English Scottish Irish Almans Hungarians Syrians Armenians Cyprians and all other vnder the Turke or any way for Christes sake oppressed or impouerished haue beene and shall be relieued Theo. A long processe to little purpose Graunt that diuerse good men in times past haue sent and gone to Rome for counsell and comfort in cases of distresse which is all in effect which you can or doe say what conclude you nowe Phi. That wee may doe the like Theo. The like you may but not the contrarie Phi. We follow precisely their steps Theo. That we denie Well you may goe to Rome as they did and so your iourney not differ from theirs in the paines which you take nor the place which you see but you neither carrie with you the same mindes that they did neither doth your holy Father content him selfe with those meanes which his predecessors vsed For the auncient Bishoppes of Rome were duetifull and obedient Subiectes to the Christian Emperours and dealt by petition and supplication in most humble wise for their afflicted brethren they neuer offered armes nor encouraged Rebell against the superiour Powers no not when Constantius the Arian banished Liberius the Bishop of Rome for dissenting from his opinion nor when Iulius the Apostata renounced the faith and openly fell to Gentilisme but euer submitted them selues to the same Lawes and paines that other godly Bishops did when the Prince tooke part with error And for this cause the traueling then to Rome whiles the Bishop there embraced the truth obeyed the State assisted their brethren by good and lawfull meanes coulde no waie be displeasant to God iniurious to Princes nor daungerous to common-wealthes In our dayes it is farre otherwise The Pope nowe taketh vpon him to depose Kinges to inuade Realmes to authorize rebellion yea to curse all that yeelde any subiection or duetie to those Magistrates that withstand their fantasies Which vile and intollerable presumption of the late Bishops of Rome neither Cyprian nor Athanasius nor Chrysostome nor Augustine nor Basill nor Hierom nor Theodorete in their times euer founde or feared And therefore both you must alter the leude perswasions of your heartes and your holie Father must leaue his wholie practises to pull Princes out of their thrones by stirring sedition and inuading their Dominions before your flocking to Rome can bee warranted by these examples Phi. I maruell you still obiect that which wre by oth haue purged You knowe wee haue sworne that in going to Rome wee had no such intent Theo. Your oth if it bee true cleareth one man for one viage but which of you doeth or can sweare for all other times and persons Howbeit in this place wee doe not vrge you with your intentes nor attempts against her Maiestie wee onely weigh the strength of your argument that you may slie to Rome as well as some learned and auncient Fathers haue done This collection of yours is not good because the bishop of Rome nowe claymeth full power to depriue Princes of their Crownes and discharge their Subiectes from all obedience contrarie to the worde of God and examples of Christes Church which in those dayes whiles these Fathers whom you mention liued the Bishoppes of Rome neither did or durst presume Phi. Wee meddle not with the Popes clayme hee can answere for himselfe Theophil You must meddle with it and bring ineuitable proofe for it before your consequent will bee currant or your slight to Rome lawfull Phi. If wee sought to Rome for succour against the Prince your saying were somewhat but I haue often tolde you we doe not Theo. And I haue told you as often that graunt you did not the Popes clayme to discharge Kinges and Queenes at his pleasure is enough to reuerse your argument Wee care not what you dissemble of pollicie for a season but what he chalengeth for euer as of right His pride not your craft is the thing we stand on and that being such as the learned Fathers whom you name neuer sawe nor suspected maketh so great a difference betweene those dayes and these that from their fact to yours no good consequent can be framed And yet I could tell you besides that when hee commaundeth you must and will execute So that although you were no seekers nor prouokers of his vnchristian dealinges
nominatiue case into the accusatiue and the accusatiue into the nominatiue as also the plurall number into the singular saying quas Apostolica sedes habere for quae Apostolicas sedes habere Thirdly you put in these words of your own heads ab ea alij which are not in S. Augustins text And so where S. Austen saith Among the which those Churches are that deserued to haue the seates of the Apostles and to receiue their letters you say plainly Among which Canonical scriptures those Epistles are which the Apostolike see of Rome hath which others haue deserued to receiue from her I report mee to your owne conscience Philander whether this be not a barbarous kind of corrupting the fathers which is often vsed in your canon law as I could shew but that I should make too long a digression Phi. If it be naught I excuse it not Theo. Come you with an if as though the case were not cleare Phi. A man may be soone ouerseene Theo. These be shrewd ouersights But returne to the matter that was first in hande The Britanes are the last that I named but not the last that resisted the Bishop of Rome whom Augustine the Monke that came from Gregorie coulde by no meanes get to yeeld him any subiectiō though king Edelbert slew twelue hundred of their Monkes in one day for refusing obedience to that Romish Legate Phi. Beda sayth so many were slayne but he sayth not for that cause Theo. Beda confesseth that seuen Bishops of the Britanes plures viri doctissimi and many very learned men vtterly refused Augustine when they met him in a Councell His woordes bee At illa nihil horum se facturos neque illum pro Archiepiscopo habituros esse respondebant Conferentes ad inuicem quia si modo nobis assurgere noluit quanto magis si ei subdi ceperimus iam nos pro nihilo contemnet The Britanes answered they woulde doe none of those thinges which hee required neither would they acknowledge him for their Archbishoppe Casting thus with themselues that if nowe hee will not so much as rise to vs howe litle accompt will hee make of vs if wee become subiect vnto him The auncient Brittish Storie which Galfridus Monemutensis translated writeth thus of them In a part of the Britanes Christianitie yet florished the which beginning in the daies of Eleutherius neuer failed among them After Augustine came he found seuen Bishopriks and an Archbishopricke supplied with yery godly gouernours Abbies a great nūber in which the flock of Christ was kept in good order Besides other Cities in the Citie of Bangor there was a most noble Church of 2100 Monkes all liuing with the labor of their hands Their Abbat was named Dinooch a man marueously well learned Who by diuers arguments made it appeare when Augustine required the Bishops to be subiect to him that they ought him no subiection Edelbert therefore the king of Kent as soone as he saw them refuse to yeeld obedience to Augustine and despise his preaching stirred vp Edelfride and other Princes of the Saxons to gather a great armie and goe to Bangor to destroy Dinooch and his Clergie Who taking the Citie commanded the swordes of his men to be turned first vpon the Monkes so twelue hundred of them the same day decked with Martyrdome entred the kingdome of heauen Lower if I would go examples are infinite where the Bishop of Rome hath beene not only stayed of his course and ouerruled but seuerely repressed and depriued of his Papacie Phi. By some tyrants or schismatiks I warrant you For neuer Catholike Prince or Bishop would offer him that abuse Theo. Fitten not so fast least you recant it with shame Godly Princes and prelats your owne Cardinals and Councels haue without any scruple cited suspended and deposed him which I trust is a plaine kind of resistance Phi. If they did all that which you speake Theo. I speake no more than your owne men doe witnesse The Grecians I will omit that neuer obeyed and long since so detesteth both him and his Church that if at any time the latine Priests had celebrated on their Altars they would not offer on the same except they first washed them as thinking them thereby to be defiled Michael Paleologus their Emperour they reiected from Christian burial for that in a councel at Lyons he professed the Greeke church to be subiect to the Romane See Phi. But after in the Councel of Florence they submitted themselues to the Bishop of Rome as to the true vicar of Christ head of the whole church father teacher of al christiās Theo. When the questiō was first moued thē at Florence their answer was We haue no leaue nor cōmission from the greeke church to speak these things And being vrged the second time responderunt vt pridie they answered as before nolentes vt de alia quaestione praeter illā de spiritus sancti processione in vnionis literis vlla mentio fieret not willing that in the letters of vnion any other matter should be contained besides the proceeding of the holy Ghost And though they were wonne at length to suffer it to passe in the letters of concorde hoping the West Princes vpon that perfect agreement would ayde them against the Turke and two of them were made Cardinals that by their authoritie the Greeke nation might bee kept in obedience Yet the whole Countrie saith Platina non ita multò post in antiquos mores recidit not long after fell to their former bent but I will not vrge the dislike betweene the two Churches The West Church will serue my turne better and stop your mouth sooner in the which we shall finde presidents enowe for this purpose Otho the great called a Councel of Bishoppes in Italie where Iohn the 13. was deposed for his infamous and lewd life the thinges bee so lothsome that I will not name them This fact of the Prince and the Synode the Church sawe suffered and allowed and receiued Leo the eight placed by them in his steede Henry the seconde likewise in a Councell draue Benedict the 9. Syluester the thirde and Gregorie the sixt three most vile monsters to forgoe the Popedome and chose Clemens the second to succeede them About Henry the fourth and Gregorie the seuenth though the stories bee diuided some taking the Princes and some the Popes part yet the Bishoppes of Germanie and Italie from Woormes Mentz and Brixia sent him but homely greetings as Vrspergensis confesseth In the yere of our Lord 1076 saith hee there was kept a Councell at Wormes where king Henry being present almost all the Bishops of Germanie except the Saxons deposed Pope Hildebrand writing him a letter after many crimes recited with this conclusion For so much then as thine entrance into the Popedome is infected with so great periuries and the Church of God dangerously tossed by reason of thy
it vp translated the same from Basill to Bononia by the consent of all the cardinals that were about him But the Emperour and the rest of the Princes and Prelates that were at Basill were so farre from obeying the Pope that they summoned him twise or thrise to present himselfe with his cardinals at Basill chosen by Pope Martin as a fit place to keepe the councell in otherwise they would proceed against him as a transgressor and wilfull refuser Eugenius troubled with this message confirmeth the councell of Basill with his Apostolike letters licencing all men to go to the councell Phi. I graunt they resisted Eugenius but I doubt of the Councell whether it were lawfull or no. Theo. Will you trust Eugenius himselfe Phi. If he say the word Theo. Thus he saith Not long since for certaine causes expressed in our letters and by the consent and aduise of our brethren the cardinalles of the church of Rome we dissolued the sacred general councell of Basill lawfully begun by the decrees of the generall councels of Constance and Senes by commission from Martin the fift likewise from vs. Mary seeing great dissention hath risen greater may rise by the saide dissolution wee determine declare that the foresaid generall councel of Basill from the first beginning of it was is lawfully continued alwaies hath yet doth ought to dure as if no dissolution had bin made And that our affection and integritie to the sacred generall councell of Basill may plainly appeare whatsoeuer hath beene done attempted or alleadged by vs or in our name to the preiudice or derogation of the sacred generall councell of Basill we vndoe reuoke frustrate and annihilate If this be enough Nicolaus the 5. that came next after Eugenius vpon the composing of the schisme betweene the Councell and the Pope gaue out a generall Bull for the confirmation of all their doinges without exception Omnia singula tam iustitiam quà m gratiam concernentia per ipsum tunc Basiliense Concilium qualitercunque facta gesta concessa data disposita ordinata cuiuscunque naturae existant motu proprio ex certa scientia de Apostolicae potestatis plenitudine de consilio assensu venerabilium fratrum nostrorum sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinaliū praesentium serie approbamus ratificamus etiā confirmamus rataque firma haberi volumus All euery thing that concerneth either fauor or iustice done deuised granted giuen disposed ordred by the coūcel of Basil of what nature soeuer we of our own motiō certain knowlege by the fulnesse of our Apostolike power and with the assent and aduise of our brethren the Cardinals of the holy church of Rome allow ratifie and confirme by the tenor of these presents and will haue to stand sure and firme So that the Councell of Basill hath ill lucke if after all these buls it bee not both a lawfull and generall Councell Phi. The Bishops of Rome that came after neuer liked the Councell of Basill but we will not striue for that we shall see what you will inferre Theo. No newes for Popes to mislike that which pared their ambition and hindered their gaine as the Councell of Basill did but can you or they denie that the Councell was orderly called Phi. I do not stand so much on that Theo. Then I conclude that a Councell may lawfully resist commaund correct and depose the Pope for so did the late Councels of Pisa Constance and Basill which your Church then helde for sacred and ecumenicall both determine in wordes and practise in deedes You must confute or confesse this illation Phi. I haue saide what I coulde and all will not helpe The Councels you proue to be generall and I see they not onely resisted and deposed Popes but also concluded it lawfull for them so to do Theo. Then you confesse they did and might resist the Pope Phi. Councels I graunt might and did but not others Theo. Why may not others do the like Phi. They must rather obey than resist Theo. We dispute not as yet whether it be lawfull or no for euery man to resist the Pope the cause being iust and when that commeth in question you must shewe good and apparent reason why they may not that which I first auouched was this your owne Cardinales and Councels your owne friendes and fellowes which you may not count schismatikes and heretikes haue stoutly resisted him and restrained and limited his dominion euen in the middest of his pride and ioylitie For Councels I haue saide sufficient Now for others The famous Uniuersitie of Paris which I thinke you will not condemne and the whole kingdom of Fraunce haue often times opposed them-selues against the Pope and withdrawne their obedience from him in part or in all as occasion required Phi. For some monie matters it may be they withstood his Collectors and Officers Theo. The Diuines of Paris openly confuted the conclusions and articles of Iohn the 22. touching the beholding and seeing of God and gate the same to be condemned before the king of Fraunce with the sound of trumpets as Gerson reporteth By this saith he appeareth the falsitie of Pope Iohns doctrine which was condemned with the sound of trumpets before Philip king of Fraunce by the Diuines of Paris and the king beleeued the Diuines of Paris before the Popes court And Ioannes Marius Iohn the second Pope that sate at Auinion fell into suspition of heresie For he taught and defended certaine articles touching the sight and vision of God which the Diuines of Fraunce king Philip taking their part very freely contradicted The yeare before the Councell of Pisa which I last spake of was gathered when Benedict the 13. would yeeld to no reason for ending the schisme between him Gregory the 12. Charles the French king with the aduise of the Bishops Princes and Vniuersities of his Realme caused himselfe to bee proclaimed adherent or obedient to neither of the twaine by them all it was decreed that the whole Church of Fraunce should depart from the obedience of Benedict and by the authoritie of this Councell all the French Cardinals forsooke him When the Councell of Basill was ended the Germans the king of France the king of England the Prince of Millan others fauored the same with all their power neglecting Eugenius authoritie then sitting in the Councel of Florence and the rather to giue it full force and effect in the kingdome of Fraunce Charles the 7. in a Parliament at Burdeuz made a law called the Pragmaticall sanction for the perpetuall obseruation of those thinges which the Councell of Basill had decreed And this law the Bishops of Fraunce and Schole of Paris defended and followed almost an hundred yeares in spite of al that Pius the 2. Sixtus the 4. Innocentius the 8. and other Bishops of Rome could do to the contrarie Phi. Did the Bishops of Rome labour
and Bishops that were called by the king for this purpose without conuiction or confession of his gaue iudgement against him alleaging and protesting the priuilege of himselfe his church The Archbishop driuen to this extremity and forsaken of al the rest of the Bishops hoysed the crosse which he held in his hand aloft marched away frō the kings court in the eyes of thē al the next night stale frō the place gate him ouer to Flaūders so to the Pope He brake the oth which he took for the keeping of the foresaid lawes liberties of the crown he claimed a freedom for theeues murderers y◠they should not be subiect to the princes power he refused the kings court appealed to the pope for a matter of debt lest he shuld rēder an accoūt of his tēporal office whiles he was Chācelor which of these three points cā you now with learning or honestie defend Phi. The liberty of the holy Church is a iust good quarell for a man to die in Theo. If you meane thereby an impunitie for mutherers such like offendors then is it a most wicked and irreligious part for a Bishop to open his mouth for such libertie much more to resist his Prince for that quarrell Phi. His quarrel was better than so Theo. Neubrigensis a man of that age and one that honored the person and praised the zeale of Th. Becket reporteth thus of the quarell betweene the king him The king saith he was aduertised by his Iudges that many crimes were committed by clergie mē against the lawes of his Realm as thefts roberies murders In so much that in his audiēce it was they say declared that more than an hundred murders were done in England by clergie men in the time of his raigne Wherefore the king very much kindled in a vehement spirit made lawes against malefactors of the clergie which hee thought to make the stronger by the cōsent of the Bishops Calling therefore the Bishoppes togither hee so plied them what with faire meanes what with foule that they al saue one thought it best to yeeld and obey the kings will and set their seales to those new statutes I say all saue one for the Archbishop of Canterburie would not bow but stood immoueable Whereupon the king began to be greatly offended with him and seeking all occasions to resist him called him to account for those things which he had done before as Chauncellour of the Realme Now must you shewe that by Gods lawes theeues and homicides if they be clerks may not be punished by the princes sword or if you dare not plead that in these dayes for very shame then must you grant that your Canterbury saint resisting his Prince where he should not was an Archrebell against God and the Magistrate one of these twaine you must needes choose Phi. We shal digresse too far if we discusse these things in this place Theo. Your stomake I see doth not serue you at this present wee shall haue some other oportunitie to debate the same in the meane time learne what lawes king Hērie the 2. enacted executed in spite of your holy father his deuout chaplin The king at the returne of his Legates perceiuing his request for the confirmation of his ancient liberties to be repelled by the Pope not a little offended therewith wrote letters to all his Shirifes Lieutenants in England on this wise I command you that if any clergie man or lay men in your coūtie appeale to the court of Rome you attach him hold him in fast ward till our pleasure be known And to his Iudges in this sort If any man be foūd to bring letters or mandate from the Pope or from Thomas the Archbishop interdicting the Realme of England let him be taken and kept in prison till I send word what shal be done with him The four that wrate the life extol the facts of Th. Becket ad to this law Let him be streightway apprehended for a traitor execution done vpon him Also let no clerk monk canon or other religious person go ouer the Seas without letters of pasport frō vs of our officer if any venture otherwise let him be taken cast into prison Let no man appeale to the Pope or to Th. the Archbishop neither let any suite surcease at their cōmandement If any Bishop Abbot Clerk or lay man shal obserue their sentence interdicting our Land presently let him bee banished the Realme and all his kindred with him and their goods and landes confiscated Let the Bishops of London and Norwich bee summoned to appeare before our Iustices and there to answere for interdicting the Land and excommunicating the person of Earle Hugh contrarie to the Statutes of our Realm Thus far the valiant worthie Prince went in defending his Lawes liberties against the Bishop of Rome how far hee would haue gone but that the time was not yet come when God would deliuer his Church from the yoke of Antichrist appeareth by an Epistle of his written to the Archbishop of Cullain in these wordes I haue long desired to finde a iust occasion to depart from Pope Alexander and his persidious cardinals which presume to maintaine my traytour Thomas of Canterbury against me whereupon by the aduise of my Barons cleargie I meane to send the Archbishop of Yorke the bishop of London the Archdeacon of Poictiers c. to Rome which shall publikely denounce plainly propose this on my behalfe and all the Dominions I haue to Pope Alexander and his cardinals that they maintaine my traytour no longer but rid me of him that I with the aduise of my cleargie may set an other in the church of Canterburie They shall also require them to frustrate all that Becket had done and exact an oth of the Pope that he and his successors as much as in them lieth shall keepe and conserue inuiolable to me and all mine for euer the Royal customs of king Henrie my grandfather If they refuse any of these my demands neither I nor my Barons nor my clergie will yeeld them any kinde of obedience any longer yea rather we will openly impugne the Pope and all his and whosoeuer in my Lande shal be founde hereafter to sticke to the Pope shal be banished my Realme Phi. The king made amends for all when the Archbishop was slaine renoūcing the liberties which he striued for so long and honoring him as a Martyr whom before he pursued as a traitor Theo. The manifold deuises practises of the late Bishops of Rome God so punishing the dulnesse and discorde of Princes neglecting his truth and enuying one an other haue weakened and wearied very many both kings and Emperours partly with a false perswasion of religion partly with a number of fayned miracles but chiefly by drawing their subiectes from them and setting other nations vpon them yea by stirring and arming their owne
to attend on his person Phi. And they be seruants as well as others Theo. It may be so neither do I denie that Princes must serue but whom Phi. The church so saith S. Hierom The nations kings that will not serue the church shall perish with that destruction which is prepared for the wicked Theo. You should shew that Princes which will not serue the Pope must loose their crownes Phi. Grant that Princes must serue the church for the rest we will do well enough Theo. First grant you that Popes were subiects seruants to christiā Princes 850. yeares after Christ which I haue proued you haue not answered and for seruice to be done by Princes to the church of Christ I will not long dissent Phi. Howe can they serue the church not serue the Pope which is head of the church Theo. To whom were these wordes spoken The kingdome that will not serue thee shall perish Phi. To the church Theo. To the whole church or to some speciall members of the church Phi. To the whole Theo. Then may the poorest member of Christs church euery Parish-priest chalenge to be the master of Princes to be serued at their hands as well as the Pope That which is spoken to all must be common to all Againe your owne answere ouerthroweth your own assertiō for this was spoken you say to the church but the Pope is not the church ergo this was not spoken to the Pope Phi. You go too far It was spoken to the whole but not ment of the whole Theo. Of whom then was it mēt Phi. Of the head which is a part of the whole The members of Christs church are not bound to serue one an other but all to serue the head In respect of their head they be seruants in respect of themselues they be brethren Theo. Is the head a part of the bodie Phi. Though the head can not properly be called a member of the bodie but the head yet in the whole are contained both the head and the members as in an Armie sometimes the Captaine and Souldiers and a kingdom compriseth both the king and his subiects Theo. Then where Esaie saith to Ierusalem kingdoms shall serue thee that is not euery member of thee but the chiefest and noblest part of thee which is the head that all the members serue Phi. And that head is the Pope Theo. When you proue the Pope to bee head of the church then call for Princes to doe him seruice In the meane time let Princes heare what Dauid saith Bee wise yee kinges serue the Lord and what our Sauiour alleadgeth Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him onelie shalt thou serue At the name of Iesus euerie knee shall bowe of thinges in heauen and of thinges on earth Yea let not onely Princes but all the Angels of God worship him hee is the head to the church which is his bodie Your holy father must staie for his seruice till his headship may be found in some better records than in your bare supposals Phi. You infer this vpon my confession which I may change vppon better aduisement The nation kingdom that wil not serue thee shall perish No doubt these words bind Princes to do seruice to the church if not to the Pope Theo. You bound them before to serue the head and not the bodie now you wil haue them serue the bodie and not the head Well since there is no more hold in your word I will take surer hold of Esaies wordes The text which you bring is allegorical as the whole chap. besides is therefore you may draw no literal conclusion from these words no more than from wals gates brasse yron gold siluer Sunne Moone milk teats camels rammes firre trees pine-trees which also be reckned and promised to Ierusalem in this place Phi. Run you to allegories Theo. You cannot run from them vnlesse you run from this chapter read it ouer and see whether I faine or no. Phi. Shall then the promises of God be frustrate because the speaches bee figuratiue Theo. Did I saie they should No they bee greater and richer than mans tongue can expresse But if you presse the letter they bee false and absurde For example All the sheepe of Kedar shall bee gathered vnto thee the rammes of Nabaioth shall serue thee For brasse will I bring golde and for yron siluer for wood brasse and for stones yron Thou shalt haue no more Sunne to shine by daie neither shall the brightnesse of the Moone shine vnto thee These thinges bee not literally true Phi. I know they be not Theo. The whole chapter goeth after the same sort expressing by temporal and terrestrial things the blessings of God vpō his church which be celestial and eternal Phi. I mislike not this Theo. Euen so the seruice which kinges must do to the church is not corporall nor external such as seruing-men yeeld to their masters or subiectes to their superiours but an inward deuotion and an humble submission to the graces and mercies of God proposed offered in his church In effect kings must become religious faithful members of the church to serue God in holines righteousnes al the daies of their life To beleeue the word that is preached to frequent the sacraments that be ministred to fear the Lord that is honored in al aboue al this is the seruice which the church of Christ hartily wisheth earnestly seeketh at al mens hāds other solemnities with cap and knee shee neither liketh nor looketh for Phi. Kinges in respect of their calling must serue the church I meane with their princely power Theo. You say somwhat In deed kings in that they be kings haue to serue the Lord so as none cā do which are not kings For their power ought so to serue the Lord that by their power they which refuse to be subiect to the wil of God should be punished but this seruice you will not haue thē to busie with if happily they command against your liking you not only discharge thē of their seruice but of their kingdoms also Phi. Not if they serue the church as Esaie saith they should Theo. The seruice that is done to Christ the church imbraceth as done to hir self because she requireth no more but that Christ her Lord master be serued and yet the seruice which I nowe speake of namely to preserue subiects in godlines quietnes with wholsome lawes to fraie men from vices heresies is done to Christ not in respect of himselfe but of his church concerneth the profit welfare of the whole church euery mēber thereof Phi. This is not to serue but to rule the church Theo. Kings as kings that is as publike Magistrates can not serue the church but by defending her members repressing her enemies this is better seruice to God his church than that which
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
it did belong to Dauid Phi. The annointing of a second king is it not the deposing of the former Theo. God often times annointed him that should succeede as when hee willed Elias to annoint Hazael king of Syria Benhadad his master yet liuing likewise to annoint Elizeus the Prophet in his own roome whereby neither Benhadad was deposed from his kingdom nor Elias depriued of his ministerie but â—uccessours appointed to them both Phi. You see in what sort also Ieroboam king of Israel had a special Prophet sent to him to denounce the intended iudgementes of God against him his Posterity for his schisme and separation of his people from the old ancient true worship of God in Ierusalem for erecting a new altar in Bethel in which al schisme and diuision from the Apostolike See is properly prefigured for creating of a wicked clergie out of AaroÌ„s order I meane new hungrie base inordered Priests the patern of heretical ministers thrust vp out of the aray orderly succession creation of Apostolike priesthood a crime so highly afterward both in him and his stock according to Gods former denunciation reuenged that none of his house was left to pisse against a wal Yet hee fondly sought to apprehend the man of God to kil him for bringing this newes which he accounted high treason against his Regalty Theo. You promised to proue that Princes might bee lawfully deposed by Priests now slipping cleane from the question you shew that God threatned destruction to wicked princes charged his Prophets to go to them tel them so much from him to their faces Who euer doubted of this or which way draw you this to make for your purpose If God may iustly reuenge the sinnes of all men euen of Princes themselues and oftentimes doth wil you thence inferre that Priests or Prophets may depriue Princes of their kingdoms Phi. A priest denounced Ieroboam to be a wicked schismatike Theo. He was a Prophet no Priest that cried out against the Altar of Bethel in Ieroboams presence spake not one worde of Ieroboams schisme or deposition but onely that king Iosiah should sacrifice the Idolatrous Priests burne their bones on that Altar which came to passe 300. yeares after Ieroboam was dead Such mighty reasons you bring to iustifie the deposing displacing of Princes by the Bishop of Rome that when all is saide your own glosing interlacing besides the text is the best ground of your argumeÌ„t That Ieroboams erecting a new Altar in Bethel properly prefigured our diuision froÌ„ the Apostolike See so you call Rome that his new hungrie base inordered priests are a paterne of our ministers these be the blasts of your spirit caÌ„kers of your mouth they touch not vs but in your deceiued exaspered fansie We haue forsaken the struÌ„pet that made drunk the inhabitants of the earth with the wine of her fornication are gone out of her lest we should be partakers in her sins receiue of her plagues otherwise we haue diuided ouer selues neither from God nor his church That the clergie of England is vpthrust hungrie base is but the vnloding of your disdainful stomakes in deed your boy-priests haue a brauer fashion to ruffle in their silks and colors think themselues no cast ware as if the sight of Rhemes or Rome did by by make them Iosephs betters in dignity AbrahaÌ„s equals in grauity for our part wee are that wee are by the grace of God wee hope in his mercy his grace in vs shal not be in vaine But what is this to the question whether the Pope may depose princes or no you began with a matter which you neuer came neere now you be clean besides For what doth Gods threatning or punishing of Ieroboam concern the Popes deposing degrading of princes God repaied the wickednes which Ieroboam committed with fearful plagues on him his whole house after him Ahias the prophet did not spare to tel Ieroboams wife that God would do it not leaue one of his line to wet a wal Euery preacher may do the like that is they may protest assure princes that Godwil not leaue their sins vnpunished both with temporall eternall plagues yet euery preacher may not depose princes Yea the preacher of God may do the like to the pope himselfe and yet you thinke it no reason that euery preacher should depose the Pope Much lesse wil it follow that your holy father may thrust princes from their seates because the Prophets of God in old time reproued princes for their Idolatries Ph. Ozias also or Vsia king of Iuda puffed vp with intolerable pride as the scripture saith not coÌ„tented with his kingly souerainty but presuming to execute spiritual priestly function was valiantly by Azarias 80. priests with him assailed thrust out of the temple by force At what time for that he threatned the priests of God resisted them with violeÌ„ce he was stroken with a filthy leprosie so not only thrust out of the teÌ„ple but by their authoritie seuered also from al companie of men a special figure of the priests power to excoÌ„municate for heresie as wel princes as others in the new law finally the regiment of his kingdom was committed to his sonne A cleare example that priests may vse armes represse impietie by forcible waies where it may serue to the preseruation of religion and honor of God Theo. Vzziah presuming to burn incense on the Altar of God which was the priests office was stroken with a leprosie liued as a leper in an house apart froÌ„ meÌ„ to the day of his death A faire warning for princes not to wax proud against God nor to vsurpe thinges interdicted them by the law of God But that Azarias the priest and 80. of his brethren valiantly assailed the kinges person and thrust him out by force or that the regiment of his kingdom passed from him as depriued of his right and descended to his sonne these be your additions and imaginations the text hath no such things Azarias his brethren withstood the king but in wordes rebuking him for the breach of Gods law which they might not manfully assailing the Magistrate nor laying violent hands on him to thrust him out of the temple as your martial termes do import If the scripture it selfe do not content you repeating the words wherewith Azarias resisted the king heare Chrysost. conclusion vpoÌ„ this place After the Priest had reproued the atteÌ„pt the king would not yeeld but offered armes shilds speares vsed his power then the priest turning himselfe to God I haue done saith he my duty to warn him I can go no farther Nam Sacerdotis est taÌ„tum arguere for it is the priests part only to reproue freely to admonish with words not to assaile
loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
or the order of those thinges which were doone by reason Platina in these wordes runneth so on heade against the rest And therefore you shall pardon vs for receiuing a man of meane iudgement and one that writeth verie negligently of these affaires before the rest that purposely and largely treated of those matters as neere as they coulde get the knowledge or come by the likelihood of those actions These bee your presidentes for the depriuing of Princes betweene sixe-hundreth and a thowsande yeares after Christ. Other or better you haue not and these you see bee verie slender Phi. Wee coulde alleadge more but you will shift them as you doe these Theo. Wee shift not when wee reproue the partiall and corrupt reportes of your owne fellowes by better and elder testimonies Moe if you haue you neede not spare Philand Philippicus was depriued of the Empire by the Bishoppe of Rome and so was Childerike of the kingdome of Fraunce Theoph. Your Law doeth not sticke to boast that Zacharias deposed Childerike King of Fraunce and placed Pipine in his roome Philand So hee did Theo. Who sayth so besides you Philand Platina sayeth Eius authoritate regnum Franciae Pipino adiudicatur By Zacharies authoritie the kingdom of Fraunce was adiudged vnto Pâ—pine And Frisingensis affirmeth that Pipine was absolued by Pope Steuen from the othe of allegeance which he had giuen to Childerike and so were the rest of the Nobles of Fraunce and then the king being shauen and thrust into a Monasterie Pipine was annoynted king which you thinke much the Pope shoulde doe in our dayes Theoph. Sette aside your helping and interlacing the Storie and I see no cause why Zacharie shoulde bee thought by his Apostolike power to haue deposed Childerike Philand Deposed hee was Theoph. But neither for religion nor by the Popes Consistorie Philand For the cause of his deposition I will not greatly striue Our Lawe sayeth hee was deposed Pro eo quod tantae potestati inutilis erat for that hee was vnfitte for the kingdome but sure Pope Zacharie deposed him Theoph. Sure you bee deceiued Pope Zacharie was then of no such accompt that hee coulde depose Princes Hee was consulted whether it might lawfully bee doone or no but farther than so the Bishoppe of Rome did not in open sight intermedle with the matter whatsoeuer his priuie practises were though many of your Monkes and Bishops to grace the Pope doe make it his onely Act. Philand In all these cases our Stories are against you and no reason wee credite you to discredite them Theoph. I desire you not to credite mee and giue me leaue to doe as much for you but if your owne Stories make with vs I see no cause you shoulde discredite them Philand We doe not Theoph. You may not Then touching the persons which did the deede Sabellicus sayth Proceres Regni populi amplexi Pipini virtutem pertesâ—que regis amentiam Zacharia Romano Pontifice prius consulto regis appellatione Childerico adempta vt spes etiam regni adimeretur in clerum detondent Pipinum regem creant The Nobles Commons of Fraunce or Germanie imbracing the valour of Pipine and hating the foolishnesse of their king hauing first consulted Zacharie Bishop of Rome tooke from Childerike the name of a king and to cutte him from all hope of aspiring to the crowne they sheere him a Monke and elect Pipine for their king Blondus saieth I finde in Alcuinus Paulus and diuerse others which wrote the Actes of the Francks that the Nobles and CommoÌ„s of that Nation duly considering the worthines of Pipine sottishnes of Childerike consulted Zacharie the Bishop of Rome whether they should tolerate so folish a king any loÌ„ger defraud Pipin of his deserued princely honor when the Bishop made answere that he was best worthy to be king which could best discharge the dutie of a king the FraÌ„kes with the publike consent of the whole Nation pronounced Pipine for their king and Childerike was shorne and made a Monke Nauclerus saieth The Franckes elected Pipine for their king by the publike consent of the whole Nation which is all one with that Blondus sayeth They declared or pronounced him for their king And this is the reason that your owne gloze limiteth your Lawe in this sort Deposuit id est deponentibus consensit Zacharie deposed Childerike that is he consented to those which deposed him Phi. The most of our Stories saie hee did it Theoph. Your Stories are very forwarde to attribute euerie thing to the Pope that may any waie increase his power And it may be the Pope had an oare in that boate more than euerie bodie well perceiued For Pipine was the man on whome the Pope wholy relied and whose power hee afterwarde vsed to quaile the Lombards and defeate the Grecians that the Pope and Pipine might diuide the spoyles of the West betweene them And therefore I can bee soone induced to thinke that a maine plotte was layde first to make Pipine king of France and then by his helpe to turne the Greeke Emperour out of Italie that the Pope might haue share of the reuenues of the Empire as not long after it came to passe but that the Pope then claymed any power to depose Princes and giue kingdomes or that the better sore of your owne stories staie on any such pretences you shall neuer shewe Zacharie being consulted made answere what the Germanes by Gods Lawe as he thought might doe but he did not appoint them by sentence or censure what they should doe Philand Howe shall wee knowe that in this diuersitie of reportes Theoph. You shall heare Zacharies answere to the Legates that were sent about this matter and that you may safely trust Philand I mistrust not his owne wordes Theop. You neede not hee woulde fauour himselfe as much as hee might with any good coulour When Volorade and Burcharde were sent to Zacharie to vnderstand his iudgement his answere was I finde in the sacred storie of the Diuine Scriptures that the people fell awaie from their wretchlesse and lasciuious king that despised the counsell of the wise men of his Realme and created a sufficient man one of themselues king God him selfe allowing their doinges All power and rule belong to God Princes are his ministers in their kingdomes And rulers are therefore chosen for the people that they shoulde follow the will of God the chiefe ruler in all thinges and not to doe what they list Hee is a true king that guideth the people committed to his charge according to the prescript and line of Gods Lawe All that hee hath as power glorie riches honour and dignitie he receiueth of the people The people create their king and the people may when the cause so requireth forsake their king It is therefore lawfull for the Franckes and Germanes refusing this vnkindely monster Childerike to choose some such as shall bee able in warre
not or can not procure the Popes fauour For so the Bishoppes of Rome haue vsed their excommunications against Princes and others as the examples that followe will fully declare To make an ende first with Hildebrand if either the successe that GOD gaue him in his furious attempt or the iudgements of your best and syncerest Stories neere that tyme bee woorthie to bee regarded they condemne this act of Hildebrande as vniust and vngodly Rodolf whome the Pope and the Saxons set vp against his master lost his right hand in the fielde as hee sought to get the Crowne from him and when by reason of that and other woundes hee was readie to giue vp the ghost Vrspergensis reporteth of him that looking on the stumpe of his arme and fetching a deepe sigh hee sayde to the Bishoppes that were about him beholde this is the hande wherewith I sware alleagance to my Soueraigne Lorde Henrie and nowe I leaue you see both his kingdome and this present life you that made me aspire to his throne take you heede that you lead me right I followed your aduise The same yeere that Rodolf was slaine Hildebrand by reuelation from heauen as hee sayde foretolde that that very yeere the false king should die but his coniecture of the false King which hee interpreted to bee Henry deceiued him sayth Sigebert For Henry fighting a set battell with the Saxons Rodolf the false king and many of the Nobles of Saxonie were slaine If this were a reuelation from God as Gregorie pretended then by the foretelling and perfourming of this accident GOD himselfe pronounced him the false King whom the Pope erected and maintained against Henry the fourth If it were no reuelation from aboue but a consortion with spirites from beneath then was Gregorie no such Saint as you make him that had felowshippe with Diuels and his owne master betrayed and beguyled the frantike humour of his infernall disciple Foure yeares after Hildebrande him-selfe was forsaken of his owne people and by their consent depriued of his Popedome and hee faine to flie to the barbarous Normanes for refuge and there in banishment died Romani Imperatorem Henricum recipiunt in vrbe eorum iudicio Hildebrandus Papatu abdicatur The Romanes receiue Henrie Emperour into their citie and by their iudgement Hildebrand is depriued of the Popedome Vrspergensis confirmeth the same Vnde Romani commoti manus Regidederunt Hildebrandum vero Papam vnanimeter abdicarunt whereupon the Romanes being moued that the Pope would not come in the kings presence to haue the matter hearde submitted themselues to the king and with one consent abandoned Pope Hildebrand Who lying at the point of death as Sigebert founde written of him called vnto him of the twelue Cardinals whom hee loued aboue the rest and confessed to God S. Peter and the whole church that hee had greatly sinned in the Pastorall charge which was committed vnto him and that at the instinct of the diuell he had stirred hatred hart-burning amongest men Beno the Cardinall testifieth the same though some of your Romish writers stoutly auouch the contrary This was the successe of Hildebrande and his newe made king the one vppon the losse of his hande and ende of his life remembring his oth and repenting his treason the other seeking to displace the Prince was displaced him selfe and lost his Popedome whiles he laboured to set the Prince besides his throne As touching the fact Frisingensis saith this was the first onset that euer Bishop of Rome gaue to depriue the Emperour I reade and ouerreade saieth he the gestes of the Romane kings and Emperors and I neuer find any of them before this man excommunicated by the Bishop of Rome or depriued of his kingdom Sigebert wisely and truly giueth his iudgement of this and the like interprise To speake with the leaue of all good men this only nouelty I will not say heresie was not crept into the worlde before the daies of Hildebrand that Priestes should teach the people they owe no subiection to euil kinges and that although they haue sworne fidelitie vnto him yet they must yeelde him none neither may they bee counted periures for holding against the king but rather he that obeyeth the king is excommunicated he that rebelleth against the king is absolued frō the blemish of disloyalty periurie Gerochus a great champiō of Gregories is fain to say of him The Romanes vsurp to themselues a diuine honor they wil yeeld no reason of their doinges neither can they abide that any man should say vnto them why doe you so They answere as the Poete writeth so I will and commande Let my will stand for reason Vrspergensis sayeth of the Synode at Mentz where in the presence of the Romane Legates the Bishops that rebelled with Hildebrand against the Emperour were deposed Ibi communi consensu consilio constituta est pax Dei There by common consent and counsell the peace of God was established which concludeth Gregorie to be the author of a diuelish dissention against the Emperour Phi. Wee care for none of these that speake euill of Gregories doing so long as we haue a greater number of stories to commend him Theo. And wee hauing the true reportes of these that liued in the same age with him which neither you nor the rest of your Romish faction can disproue litle regard what men that came after and were more desirous to please the Pope than to write the truth haue published in their stories You nor all the writers you haue shall euer be able to refell the assertions of Sigebert Frisingensis that Hildebrād was the first Bishoppe of Rome which attempted to depriue Princes of their Crownes and that this noueltie or rather heresie was neuer hearde of before Howe lawfull then it was which for a thowsande yeares the church of Rome neuer durst aduenture till Gregorie the seuenth first presumed to doe it leaning rather to wicked and seditious policie than to christian and confessed authoritie the simple may soone discerne or if they looke to the end they shall see the reward that is consequent to all rebellions A good instruction sayeth that auncient reporter of Henries life was giuen to the worlde that no man shoulde rise against his master The right hand of Rodolph cut off shewed a most iust punishment of periurie in that he feared not to violate his fidelitie sworne to the king his Soueraigne and as though other woundes had not beene sufficient to bring him to his death that part also was punished that by the plague the fault might bee perceiued Phi. If you stand on successe Henrie him-selfe was lifted at last out of his kingdome by his owne sonne Theo. Was it not wickednesse enough to arme the subiectes against their Prince to set the sonne to impugne the father but you must also crake of it The way that Hildebrand beganne
we appoint you to be the father pastor of your soules So the Monks for fear of excoÌ„munication though against their willes not without grudging gaue their voices and choose Stephen Langhton to be Primate of England Let go the wrong which the Bishop of Norwich receiued in that the Pope of his mere pleasure did frustrate his election to gratifie one of his own What Law permitteth the Pope to force men in their elections to choose whom he list to prescribe How could that election be good which was plainly wrested from a few Monks beyond the Seas with threats excommunications the rest that were at home being neither called nor bouÌ„d to go out of the Land for the choice of their Archbishop Why should not the king refuse that violent and shamefull packing of the Pope to plant his Cardinals in this Realm Or what should the king looke to haue of him that was deuoted to the court of Rome obtruded on him in this violent maner but a deadly enimie to his state as it after fel out and a continuall practiser against his person Phi. That is your suspition The. It proued too true for the kings auaile For this prelat not only inceÌ„sed the Pope against the king that he might be receiued to his See but after the king was reconciled and himselfe quietly possessed of his church he set all the Barons of this realme in an open rebellion against the king that neuer ceased till the king was poysoned Phi. You charge him vntruly Theo. His owne actes will not belie him The next yeare after his vntoward election the Pope interdicted the whole Land for that the king would not admit Steuen Langhton into his Realme no point of godlie discipline to chaftise the king but a tricke of your Romish policie to get the subiects to murmur at the Magistrate And foure yeares after when the Pope staied somwhat long as they thought in contriuing his matters against king Iohn your Canterbury Cardinall with the Bishops of London and Flie went to Rome coÌ„plained to the pope of the manifold rebellioÌ„s enormities which king Iohn had coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the time of the interdict to that present day increasing his cruelty tyraÌ„ny so these ambitious hirelings termed their soueraignes doings against God his holy church without intermissioÌ„ WherupoÌ„ they made supplicatioÌ„ to the pope that he would voutsafe of his godly coÌ„passion to helpe the church of England in this extremity So nice your clergie was yâ— wheÌ„ they were but a litle defalked of their abundaÌ„ces superfluities they could no longer abide it but desired to haue the king deposed Phi. The king seased on all their goods caused them to redeeme their immunities liberties raised a grieuous persecutioÌ„ against the whole clergy through out England Theo. We doubt not but your Monkes in this freight wil make great flames of smal sparks The king of EnglaÌ„d did as any prince in this like case would The clergy of this realm was at that time a richer and wealthier state than the Laitie discharged from all burdens and taxes to the crowne by the fauor of the Princes his progenitors If therefore when the Pope beganne to quarrell with the king about the chiefest church in his Realme and offered him so open wrong the cleargie were readie with their wealth and strength to assist the Pope against the king why should not the king both sease their goods into his handes make them redeeme their priuileges which they were wel able to doe for the maintenaunce of his crowne and kingdome against a wicked and iniurious oppressour And sure for ought that I see the king did but iustice For where the clergie refused to doe their duties and would not so much as say him or his people anie diuine seruice why shoulde the Prince suffer them to inioy those liuinges that were prouided for such as would Phi. The fault was not theirs they were restrained by the Popes interdict Theo. Were the fault in them or the Pope this is euident the clergie might better lacke their liuinges than the Realme diuine seruice Phi. Was it not tyrannie to famish so many thowsand Monkes Priests as were in this Land Theo. The king allowed them victum vestitum parce ex rebus proprijs meate drink and raiment out of their liuings though sparefully in respect of their former and vsuall excesse the rest hee kept in his hands till they discharged that function for which they were indowed with so liberal recompence Pâ—i You can not blame them Theo. Hee that perfourmeth a wicked interdict is to be blamed as well as he that commaundeth it Phi. This was not wicked Theo. There could be no wickeder The prohibition of publike praier and restrainct of the worde and Sacraments throughout the Realme is rather a dishonour to God and an iniurie to the faith than a seemely sentence for a christian Bishop You can neither shew vs warrant for it in the Scriptures nor example of it in the church of God for a thowsand yeares They did excommunicate persons not places they thrust not the innocent into the same extremitie with the nocent as you do much lesse did they prohibite God to be serued in the church his Sacraments to be ministred his word to bee preached which the Turkes do not offer where they conquere and Satan himselfe can wish no better increase of his kingdome than this horrible desolation of all those meanes that God hath appointed to saue the soules of men Phi. Then let them be obedient to their Bishops Theo. You can not say the people were disobedient but onely the king why then shoulde they be restrained from seruing God and stand in danger of euerlasting destruction which transgressed not Phi. Let them bee earnest with their king to yeelde Theo. And what if hee will not though they be neuer so earnest Phi. Let them be ready to compell him when they be required so to doe by their Bishops Theo. You hit the nayle right on the head Your generall debarring of diuine seruice throughout a Realme was nothing else but an Antichristian Policie to set the people in a discontent and to make them the readier to rebell against their Princes for whose sakes they be thus put in the high way to perish And therefore the clergie men that did execute and fulfill such an interdict were partakers of the same wickednesse with the pronouncers and by no reason can it bee counted cruelty in the king to take from them their ecclesiasticall promotions so long as they wickedly ceased from their ecclesiasticall functions by this or any other like interdict This was all the persecution and rebellion that king Iohn might iustly bee charged with and yet the Pope by the counsell of his cardinals and Bishops sententially defined that he should be deposed from his throne and an other placed by the Popes procurement that
the Popes vasall Phi. Better so than worse Better farmer to the Pope than prisoner to the French and in that offer to my iudgement the Pope shewed fauour to king Iohn Theo. Such fauour a thiefe sheweth when he cutteth off both hands and letteth the head stand Phi. Compare you the Pope to a theefe Theo. I did him no wrâ—ng if I shoulde except you thinke it lesse sinne to robbe a King of his Crowne than an other man of his goods Phi. The King was content and so long it could be no robbery Theo. So is any man by the high wayes side content rather to yeelde his purse than loose his life and yet that is fellonie Phi. What right hath a theefe to an other mans purse Theo. As much as the Pope had to the Crowne of England when he forced King Iohn to yeeld it Phi. Of that we will not dispute Theo. You should but shame your selues if you did Phi. But since that surrender he hath better title to this Realme Theo. No more than he had before King Iohn was borne and that was none at all Phi. The whole Realme of England with that of Ireland with all their right and appertinentes were giuen to Innocentius and his Catholike successours and the king bound his heires and after commers for euer to doe homage and fealtie to the Bishop of Rome Theo. A faire paire of indentures but somewhat too short to conuey a Kingdom The King by an oth might make himselfe thrall during his life as perhaps he did but tie his Realme crowne to that perpetuall bondage by his single deede or chart hee could not It is wel knowen the Kinges of this Realme can not doe lesse thinges than the selling or giuing of their crownes away without the consent of their nobles commons Phi. He had the consent of his Barons Theo. That is not true The deed saith with coÌ„mon counsel or aduise of our Barons meaning such as were then by chaunce about him at Douer but the most part of his Barons detested that act and the Kinges that came after him neuer tooke them-selues bound in honour law nor conscience to respect that priuate submission of their predecessour Phi. May not a King subiect his Realme to whome hee will Theo. I thinke Lawyers will say no as well as diuines sure I am the Barons of this Realme thought no. For when the Popes Legate spake to the French king that his sonne might not disquiet king Iohn being now fendarie to the church of Rome the king of Fraunce answered The kingdom of England neither was is nor shall be S. Peters patrimonie No king nor Prince can make away his Realme without the assent of his Barons that are bound to defende the Realme and if the Pope goe on to vphold this errour he giueth a most pernicious example to all kingdomes Then all the Nobles of England for to Fraunce were they fled to accompanie their new king whome they had chosen in king Iohns place with one voice cried they would stand to maintaine this article euen with the losse of their liues that a king or prince caÌ„not at his pleasure giue or subiect his kingdome to any other to make the Nobles of his Realm seruants So that his Barons neither consented he should nor liked that he did subiect his realm to the Bishop of Rome so far were they from consenting that in words they reuiled in deedes resisted both the king the Pope and vtterly despicing the curses and comminations that came from Rome they brought in Lodouike the French kings sonne to take the crown of England from the Popes lease For when the Pope had sent first a generall and after a speciall excommunication to curse them by name that went about to take the kingdom from his vasal They said euery one of them that those buls were of no force chiefly for that the ordering of temporall affaires did not appertaine to the pope since the Lord gaue Peter his successors no power but to dispose Church matters Why theÌ„ said they doth the insatiable greedines of Romanes encroach vpon vs What haue the Bishops of Rome to do with our wars Behold they wil be the successours of Constantine not of Peter And in somwhat homely termes out vpon such shriueled ribalds as are neither valiant nor liberal yet will rule the whole world by their excommunications like ignoble vsurers and Simonistes as they are Euen so the Barons Wo be to thee the outcast of kings the abomination of English princes coÌ„fusion of English nobilitie Alas England England til this time the Queene of Prouinces but now in subiection and vnder the rule of base seruants and strangers where as nothing is viler than to be in seruitude to a seruant We reade that other kinges and princes haue striued euen vnto death for the libertie of their Landes but thou Iohn of mourneful memorie to al ages hast deuised and contriued that thy Realme being anciently free should become bound and thy selfe of a most free king a seruile tributary farmour vassall And of thee O Pope what shall we say which shouldest shine to the world as the father of holynes the myrror of godlines the tutor of righteousnes keeper of truth that thou consentest commeÌ„dest defendest such an one But for this cause doest thou maintaine the waster of English wealth and extinguisher of English nobilitie depending on thee that all may be plunged into the gulfe of Romish auarice This was the Barons complaint against king Iohn for intiteling the Pope to the crown of England though they added other things as occasions to the warres called the Barons warres I meane the lawes liberties of king Edward yet this was the ground of their grief as you may collect by their words this respect made them refuse their king and elect an other and neuer leaue pursuing him till they brought him to his end And as for the kings that came after him set his own sonne aside who to make himselfe strong against Lodouike that possessed halfe this Realme did homage to the church of Rome for his kingdome and tooke an oth for the payment of the thowsand markes granted by his father thereby to continue the Popes censures against all those that affected his crown or molested his Land not one of them euer recognised this subiection or represented this yearly pension to the Bishop of Rome but kept him off at slaues end from infringing the roialties of the crowne oppressing the liberties of the Lande more than any Realme christian of the West parts that we read Insomuch that Polydore no meane aduocate of your side concludeth this subiection and pension touched personally king Iohn and not his successours that should raigne after him By reason of king Iohns deliuering his Crowne into the Legates handes receiuing it againe as his gift It is a fame saith
and hee that was kept off was no Prince either by discent or by choice but one that aspired to the crowne by killing the king and abusing the Queene in most haynous manner In which case if the Patriarch had offered his life rather than suffered such an one to approch to the Lords table he had done but his dutie Phi. Would you now haue bishops rebell Theo. You thinke so much on it you can not choose but talke of it I said no such thing the common wealth had to doe with the crowne and not the Bishoppe that if they gaue hee might not denie but as for diuine seruice and Sacraments the Bishoppe might well dâ—me them to that infamous adulterer and murderer Phi. You may perceiue by that which the Patriarch of Constantinople sayd to Isaac Commenus what sway the Bishop of that citie bare in crowning the Emperour He told the Prince plainely that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire so if he gouerned not well by him it should be taken from him againe Theo. We may perceiue by that which you bring both the pride of the Patriarch and the falshood of your dealing This Bishoppe was a ringleader in the rebellion wherein Michaell Stratiotes the former Emperour was displaced and Isaac Commenus exalted in his steade and when the newe Prince happened to denie the prowde and seditious Patriarch a request which hee made hee brast out in great rage and tolde him that as hee had holpen him by his wicked conspiracie to the Crowne so would he by like meanes helpe him from it An example as fit for your doinges as you coulde possibly light on that a Priest should tel his Prince he would thrust him out of his seate by the head and shoulders Philand If hee gouerned not well hee woulde take the Crowne from him Theo. If hee gouerned not well is your addition and misconstruction of your Author the storie lieth as I report it The woordes of Zonaras are Neque verò Patriarcha superbia illi cedebat sed imperare illi volebat aâ— si quando non impetrasset quae petierat egrè ferebat increpabat minabatur denique quemadmodum imperium illi contulisset ita se idem illi orepturum The Patriarch yeelded not a iote in pride to the prince and if at any time hee missed of the requestes which hee made hee disdayned and cast it in the princes teeth threatned that as hee had promoted him to the kingdome so hee woulde take it from him Nowe in what sort hee with others conspired for Isaac Commenus against Michael Zonaras sheweth in this page before And in trueth hee was ledde with the same spirite that Hildebrande was liuing at the same time with him and sitting at Constantinople whiles the other raigned in Rome and had the very same euent of his pride which Hildebrande had the Greeke Prince being not able to beare the Patriarches insolencie and therefore banishing him where for spite and anger hee shortly after dyed Philand Likewise when kinges that before were infidels doe enter by Baptisme into the Church they submitte their scepters to Christ and consequently make them-selues subiect and punishable if they reuolt from their fayth and promisâ— Theoph. When Kinges by Baptisme put on Christ they submitte their scepters and soules to the woorde and will of Christ but what this auayleth the Pope I see not except you assume that your Holy Father is Christ and so the subiection professed by Kinges vnto Christ must be yeelded to your Romish Antichrist which were very farre fet and skant worth the cariage Phi. If they reuolt from their fayth they bee punishable by reason of their former subiection vnto Christ. Theo. Yea verily and that not onely in this worlde if it please him but in the next also with euerlasting paines if they repent not Philand If they bee punishable in this world then may they be depriued Theo. Doth Christ vse no punishmâ—â—t but depriuation or euer read you that in this life Christ sententially deposed any Prince though hee might haue punished many Phi. I meane they may bee depriued by men if they reuolt from their promise made to Christ. Theoph. Your owne meanings bee your best argumentes otherwise I see no strength in this reason Princes are punishable if they breake their fayth giuen to Christ Ergo by men and if by any man ergo by the Pope This is leaping logike of all that euer I heard Philand They submitted them-selues in Baptisme to bee punished by depriuation if they kept not fayth and trueth with Christ. Theo. If you shoulde not eate till you prooue that assertion you shoulde fast a lent not of dayes but of yeeres It is a wicked error to say that any priuate man in Baptisme must or doeth submitte him-selfe to the violent and corporall correction of his flesh or to the temporall losses of land or life which you would fasten on Christian Princes by vertue of their Baptisme Philand Vppon these conditions and none other Kinges bee receiued of the Bishoppe that in Gods behalfe annoynteth them which othe and promise being not obserued they breake with GOD and their people and their people may and by order of Christ his supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them heresie and infidelitie in the Prince tending directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiectes and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church and true religion for the defence of which kinges by GOD are giuen Theoph. Againe you leape from the baptising to the crowning of Princes and because at their admission into the Church they promised to renounce the Dyuell and his woorkes but not their swoordes and scepters which are of GOD you range to their coronations and tell vs in great state that the Bishoppes which annoynted them in Gods behalfe did not receiue them to bee kinges but on these conditions as though it were in the handes of Bishops to receiue and reiect Kinges and to prescribe them conditions of taking and leauing the Crowne Faine you woulde encroche vpon Kinges by the Bishoppes act and oyle that in the ende you might possesse the Pope with a full interest to dispose their Crownes at his pleasure but such as bee wise will looke to your fingers and keepe you short of that desire The solemne rites of coronations haue their ende and vtilitie but no direct force nor necessitie They bee good admonishmentes to put Princes in mynde of their duetie but no increasements of their dignitie For they be Gods annointed not in respect of the materiall oyle which the Bishoppe vseth but in consideration of their power which is ordayned of the sword which is authorized of their Persons which are elected by GOD and endued with the giftes of his spirite for the better guyding of his people If oyle be added it is but a ceremonie representing that to
conscience towards God that is chiefly for religion indure grief and suffer wrong vndeserued If then Peter whom you make the Pillor of your Popedome neither would nor could depriue a poore crafts-man though an infidell or an heretike of his seruaunt or prentize what right can your holy Father now haue to depriue Princes of their crownes for those or any other causes and to absolue their subiectes from all obedience though they woulde yeeld it and haue sworne it That Parentes should loose the regiment and authority which by nature law they haue ouer their children is a late Popes decree which we litle regard not found in the extrauagants as you quote it Cap. â—in but in the Decretals of Sixtus lib. 5. de haereticis cap. 2. and were it to bee founde in ancient imperiall Lawes that heretikes should not bring vp their children for feare of infecting them which we greatly mislike not yet no Law Gods nor mans doth licence the sonne to dishonour relinquish forsweare and murder his father though a Turke or a Saracene as you teach subiectes to vse their Princes Phi. Thus much may as we trust suffice with all reasonable indifferent persons for defence of our brethren Theo. Thus much sufficeth to conuince you of that wherewith you were charged that is with liking labouring perswading and expecting the depriuation and destruction of your naturall and lawfull Soueraigne And since the foundation of your doinges hath neither warrant in the worde of God nor example in the church of Christ for a thowsande yeares as we trust the reader by this time perceiueth but onely dependeth on the late violent and wicked treacheries of Popes swelling with earthly pride and sauoring of filthy gaine who for the readier atchiuing of their interprise began with cursing alwayes ended in sowing seditions menaging rebellions kindling warres allowing periuries vpholding treasons and shaking the frame of the earth with horrible tumults I hope no Christian subiect wil be so vnwise as to beleeue you or so wicked as to follow you seeing you pretend religion defend rebellion come now to the publike patrocination of that which al this while you secretly cloked with cunning and suttle euasions knowing that God is the ordainer of Princes and will be the reuenger of all that presume to displace them or resist theÌ„ he hauing expresly commanded them to be serued obeyed and honoured Phi. It shall not be amisse perhaps to set downe the iudgement and practize of Protestantes in this very case which though it weigh litle or nothing with vs as being altogither both done and spoken of seditious and partiall affection to their heresie and against the lawfull Magistrate of God yet you seeing your own masters against you shall well perceiue that the resisting of Princes and Magistrates in cause of religion as also the subiectes taking armes for their defence in such a case is no way to be accounted treason but most lawfull according to your new Gospell Theo. As for the newnesse of our Gospell we say with Tertullian If Christ were euer and afore all the truth of his Gospell is as auncient and euerlasting Let them therefore looke to themselues to whome that is newe which in it selfe is olde Masters we haue none but Christ neither binde we our selues to the will of any but only of God And though by your owne confession in the next Section before we neede not busie our selues to defende euerie priuate mans writing or action concerning this matter yet least by deprauing the sense and abusing the words of some that neuer spake of the case in question betweene vs you should commend rebellion to the common people as allowed of either side yours and ours in cause of religion I will not be grieued to sitt their sayinges and to consider how far they make with you or against you Phi. First your grand-master Iohn Caluine putteth downe his oracle as a conclusion approued of your whole sect and confraternity in these wordes Abdicant se potestate terreni Principes dum insurgunt contra Deum immo indigni sunt qui censeantur in hominum numero Potius ergo conspuere oportet in illorum capita quam illis parere vbi sic proteruiunt vt velint spoliare Deum suo iure c. Which in english is thus Earthly Princes do bereaue themselues of al authoritie when they do erect themselues against God yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of men and therefore wee must rather spit vppon their heades than obey them when they become so proude or peruerse that they will spoile God of his right and to the same place I further referre the Reader for his instruction Theo. Caluine is so well knowen to those that bee learned or wise for his great paines and good labours in the church of God that a few snarling Friers can not impeach his name though you neuer so wretchedly peruert his wordes Phi. Wee peruert them not we alleadge them as they lie Theo. Caluine in that place speaketh not one word of depriuing of Princes of their Crownes or resisting them with armes but onely sheweth that Daniell did rightly defend himself for not obeying the kinges wicked edict because it was ioyned with the manifest dishonor of God and restraint of his seruice which no king can prohibite By Abdicant se potestate he meaneth not they forfeite their Crownes but that they loose their power to commaunde in those thinges which in other cases that be lawfull they notwithstanding retaine And though the phrase to spit vpon their heades seeme somewhat harde yet the comparison so standing as he maketh it that is whether we were better vtterly to contemne their impious edictes and to defie such sinneful actes to their faces which is ment by spitting at them or else obey them spoyling God of his right and as it were pulling him out of heauen I say we must no way consent to yeelde any regard or reuerence to their idolatrous rage and pride against God This is all that Caluine in vehement wordes as his maner is vrgeth and this is farre from rebelling pursuing Princes with armes as you would haue his wordes to sound Phi. Let the Reader view the place see whether your construction be true or no. Theo. With a good will If you finde one word there of taking or vsing weapon or violence against the king I yeelde the whole For how could any such thing be grounded vpon Daniels example He submitted himselfe to bee cast to the Lions for the breach of the kinges commaundement And when he was mightily deliuered from their iawes by the hand of God all that he said to the king was against thee O king I did no euill meaning in that he serued GOD though the king by his Lawe had prohibited him so to doe for thirtie dayes Upon that Caluine saith Daniell coulde not obey the kinges edict
to be subiect or free from the kinges power The people likewise tooke Ieremy when hee had prophesied against them and said thou shalt die the death These places haue perswaded some and might leade Zuinglius to think that the people of Israell notwithstanding they called for a king yet reserued to themselues sufficient authority to ouerrule their king in those thinges which seemed expedient needfull for the publike welfare else God would not punish the people for the kings impietie which they must suffer might not redresse But yet in the 15. of Ieremie there is no such cause pretended their consent rather and zeale to please Manasses in his wickednesse their generall shrinking back from truth so lately professed vnder Ezechias for feare of his cruelty that did next succeede were the causes why God would punish both the king and the Realme For God neuer required of the people to displace their Prince that we can reade but onely that they should rather yeeld their liues than forsake his truth when any tyrant offered to deface his glory Phi. By Zuinglius decision the people may depose the Prince Theo. Zuinglius doth shew the causes for which magistrats may be iustly deplaced by those that haue authoritie to doe it but hee giueth no priuate man leaue to take the sword or offer violence to any Prince though he be a tyrant againe he speaketh of Rulers elected and limited not succeeding and absolute In which ease by the Lawes of sundrie Realmes much is permitted which otherwise may not bee presumed Phi. Nay hee speaketh of all sortes of Princes whether they bee made by succession election or vsurpation Theo. In that Article hee mentioneth them but hee neither resolueth any certainetie of them or alloweth any force to bee vsed against them Of hereditarie succession these be his wordes Mihi ergo compertum non est vnde hoc sit vt regna per successiones quasi per manus posteris tradantur I confesse I haue no skill in this how kingdomes should be deriued to posterity by succession as it were by haÌ„d If then a tyrant chosen by no man get a kingdom by inheritance which hath his foundation I know not how ferre hunc oportet sed quomodo imperitabit he must be indured but how shall he gouern His answere is Regnum aliquo sapiente administranduÌ„ erit the kingdom must be gouerned by some wise maÌ„ that shal assist him If a tyrant succeeding may not be repelled from his inheritance but suffered and assâ—sted then by this confession may he not be deposed And that no violence may be vsed to any Prince promoted by succession or election his words are plaine Disputing quo pacto mouendus sit officio by what means a magistrat may be displaced he saith Non est vt eum trucides nec vt belluÌ„ tumultis quis exitet quia in pace vocauit nos Deus Thou maist not kil him nor leauie warre or any tumult against him because God hath called vs in peace Phi. How then shal he be displaced since no Prince will yeeld his crown without force Theo. He answereth hic iam labor est this is the difficulty but his coÌ„ceit is that they which chose him should denouÌ„ce him vnfit to weare the crown if he yeeld it is wel if not they must offer their liues in so good a cause as to dy for iustice truth Phi. In faith that were folly first to prouoke a tyraÌ„t with depriuatioÌ„ after to lay down their necks to his furie The. Yet that is his resolution for he addeth Qui hoc ferre noÌ„ possunt ferant insolenteÌ„ tyrannuÌ„ They that caÌ„ not abide to die for the defence of iustice let theÌ„ tolerate the pride of the tyraÌ„t Phi. Are you of that minde Theo. You are not to seeke after al our reasoning what I thinke I haue meetely well repeated it And as for Zuinglius though he measure all Nations by the Germanes proportion other kingdomes to the Empire in that respect speake somwhat strangely yet he iustifieth no tumult against a tyrant much lesse rebellion against lawfull and absolute Princes which is the case at this instant in question betwixt vs. That touching rebellion now for succession as I muse at his wordes so I like not his iudgement when he saith he can not tell whence it is that kingdoms should go by successioÌ„ The Romane Empire it self from Constantine the great and before till the time of Otho the third that is 700. yeares and vpward went by successioÌ„ saue where the right lines failed or seditioÌ„ disturbed the heire The greatest kingdomes of the West partes as Fraunce England Spaine Scotland and others haue alwayes gone by succession since they were diuided from the Empire and neuer by election The like I might say almost of all prophane kingdoms and Monarchies where not election but successioÌ„ hath preuailed But omit them God him selfe gaue this to Dauid as a great blessing of the fruit of thy body will I set vpon thy throne this was it which was denied to Saull for reuenge of his disobedience Thou hast done foolishly for the Lord had now established thy kingdom vpon Israel for euer All the recompence which Iehu had for his zealous seruice was this Because thou hast deligently executed that which was right in mine eies therefore shall thy sonnes vnto the fourth generation sit on the throne of Israell So that succession in kingdoms hath not only the consent of al ages Nations but the manifest subscription of God himself that it is his speciall fauor blessing to continue the successions of godly Princes Phi. And what our english Protestantes write or thinke of this matter you shal well perceiue by their opinion and high approbation of Wiats rebellion in Queene Maries dayes wherof one of your chiefe Ministers called GoodmaÌ„ thus speaketh in his treatise intituled How superiour Magistrates ought to be obeyed Wiat did but his duty and it was the duty of all others that professe the Gospell to haue risen with him maintenance of the same His cause was iust and they all were traytours that tooke not part with him O noble Wyat thou art nowe with God and those worthy men that died for that happie interprise Theo. It is much that you measure the whole Realme by one mans mouth and more that you drawe the wordes which he spake from the meaning which he had to warrant your rebellions The partie which you name at the time wheÌ„ he wrote tooke Queene Mary for no lawful Prince which particular and false supposal beguiled him made him thinke the better of Wyats war but our question is of lawful Princes not of violent intruders And therefore Goodmans opinion which himselfe hath long since disliked is no way seruice-able for your seditions Ph. Hold you Queene Mary for an intruder Theo. Not I but he
when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse not finding a man in Iudah that did or could vndertake the charge Phi. These were kinges of the olde Testament and they had the Lawe of God to guide them Theo. Then since christian Princes haue the same Scriptures which they had and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them which they had not why should they not in their kingdomes retaine the same power which you see the kings of Iudah had vsed to their immortall praise and ioy Phi. The christian Emperours euer called Councels before they would attempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. What councell had Constantine when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled christian religion throughout the world twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders which he decreed and I haue often repeated What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire Phil. They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them Theo. Conference with some Bishops suâ—h as they liked they might haue but councels for these causes they had none In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes I meane from Constantine the first to Constantine the seuenth there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasticall affaires were infinite and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe generall Councels and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued established and maintained without ecumenicall councels vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted Theodosius as I shewed before made his owne choice what faith he would follow and had no man nor meanes to direct him vnto truth but his own prayers vnto God and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior aunswere wan him to it For entering the Palace and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father Amphilochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by him Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe willed him to salute his sonne to whom the Bishoppe replied that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both Whereat when the Emperour began to rage to conâ—â—er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour the wise Bishoppe inferred wiâ—h a loude voice Art thou so grieued O Emperour to see thy sonne neglected and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him Assure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Sauiour and deliuerer Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted instructed somtimes by Marchaunts sometimes by women most times by the single perswasioÌ„ of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life wheÌ„ it was first offered them and neglecting your number of voices consent of Priestes competent courts as friuolous exceptioÌ„s against God dangerous lets to their saluation Frumentius a christian child taken prisoner in India the farther and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the nonage of the king carefully sought for such as were christians among the Romane Merchants and gaue them most free power to haue assemblies in euery place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite and exhorting them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers And within short time he built a Church brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith and ioyned with them The king of Iberia neere Pontus when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in only by thinking and calling on Christ whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife sent for the woman and desired to learne the manner of her religion and promised after that neuer to worship any other God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might admonished him to build a church and described the forme how it must be done Whereupon the king calling the people of the whole nation together told them what had befallen the Queene and him and taught them the faith and became as it were the Apostle of his nation though hee were not yet baptized The examples of England France other couÌ„tries are innumerable where kings coÌ„monwealths at the preaching of one man haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings And therefore ech Prince people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God Christ his Son notwithstanding twentie Bishops as in our case or if you will twentie thowsand Bishops should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God by pretence of humane reason and order Phi. Their examples and yours are not like They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed you doe not Theo. They know not what the church of christ ment when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chriâ—â— they respected not the countenaunces of men but the promises of God when they first beleeued And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals decrees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance you would remember that the church her selâ— was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission Phi. The Apostles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges Theo. What was it Phi. We ought rather to obey God than men Theo. Was that authoritie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes Phi. Most sufficient Theo. And the truth of God chaungeth not neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time Phi. By no means Theo. Then this must only be the question betwixt vs whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth If the
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
faire king of France also did before him put the Pope to the worse Phi. What did he Theo. He not only contemned the Popes Buls curses but clapt his Legat by the heels sequestred himselfe his whole realm from his obedience at length caught the Popes own person kept him in prison til he died Phi. Durst he be so bold with his holines Theo. How bold the king of France was a frier as you bee shal tel you Bonifacius the 8. minding to send an armie to Hierusalem hoping to get Philip of France to furder the matter sent the Bishop of Apamea to the king who when he perceiued he could do no good began to threaten king Philip that he should be depriued of his crown if he did not satisfie the Popes request was therfore by the commādement of the king cast in prison Which done Bonifacius a mā aboue measure arrogāt pretending that Philip had violated the law of natiōs would needs be reuēged sending the Archdeacon of Narbon into Frāce forbiddeth Philip to take any more of the church reuenues wheras before the king that Bonifacius could suffer had one yeares fruit of euery vacāt church which we cal the kings due farther he denoūceth that the crown of Frāce is deuolued to the church of Rome by Philips cōtumacy adding that if Philip refused this he would pronoūce both him those that fauored him heretikes moreouer he appointed the bishops certain Abbats with the diuines Canonists a day to appeare before him at Rome withal declareth the charters grāts bestowed on the Frēch by the bishop of Rome to be void This message done by the Archdeacō with pride enough Philip set the Bishop which was kept in ward for his lewd wordes at libertie and charged him with speede to depart the Realme the next spring the Prince gathered an assembly at Paris rehearsing the iniuries that he had receiued at Bonifacius hands asked first the Bishops of whō they held their lands reuenewes then turning himselfe to the Nobles you my Lords saith he whom do you take for your king ruler both answering without staie that they helde inioyed all those things by his Princely lawes but saith the king Bonifacius so dealeth as if you the whole Realme of Fraunce were subiect to his See For the Empire of the Almanes which he thrise denied Albert hath he now giuen him and also the kingdom of Fraunce But we thanking you for your fidelitie good will trusting to your helpe doe promise to defende the libertie of our Lande The Councell risen the king by open Proclamation forbad all men to carrie gold siluer or any other thing out of his Realme a paine set for the breakers of this Edict besides watch ward was appointed at euery passage port to apprehend those that came in or went out of his Countrie And not long after a second Councell of Bishops and Nobles were assembled at Paris where they discussed Bonifacius claime to the kingdom of Fraunce the Fathers affirming that Bonifacius was vnworthie to be Bishop for that he was an homicide and an heretike whereof they had witnesses present Therefore with one consent they concluded that Bonifacius ought not to be obeyed vnlesse he first cleared himselfe of that he was charged with After this king Philip taking the pride of Bonifacius in very ill part sent some to intimate his appeale against the iniuries of Bonifacius who belike meaning to gratifie the king caught the Pope in his fathers house at Anagnia whēce the proud Prelate was led to Rome cast in prison where within foure twentie daies he ended his life either by violence or else for griefe of hart Thus died Bonifacius like a dogge that went about to strike a terrour into Emperors Kings Princes Countries Commonwealthes rather than any religion which assaied to giue kingdoms take them away to aduance men and pull them downe at his pleasure Wherefore it was truely saide of him he entered like a Foxe craftily liued like a Lion furiously died like a dogge shamefully Phi. This is but one mans iudgement Theo. Yet a man of your owne side and if our English Monkes do not deceiue vs it was the prophesie of Caelestinus his predecessor who sayd to him Thou hast entered like a Foxe thou wilt raigne like a Lion shalt die like a dogge but the truth of the storie is it that I seeke for and that in effect a few circumstances altered is confessed by the best of your writers and this they adde which I would haue you marke that the king not only withdrew his obedience from the Pope but also restrayned his subiectes from sending or going to Rome So Sabellicus Philip offended with Bonifacius by open Edict forbad all French men to go to Rome or to send any mony thither So Platina The king meaning in part to reuēge the wrōgs which the Pope had done him made a law that none of his Realme should go to Rome or send mony thither So Paulus AEmylius The Bishops and prelats of France were commaunded by Bonifacius to appeare at Rome by a certaine day The king suffered no man to depart out of Fraunce which you thinke much her Maiestie should at this present in a far better cause commaund within her dominions Phi. One Swallow maketh no summer Theo. One such Sommer is able to mar the Popes haruest but herein the king of France is not alone the kings of England haue done the like Phi. Which of them Theo. I could easily name them but I need not The ancient Lawes Liberties of this Realm permit no man to go out of this land nor appeale to Rome without the kings consent Phi. Uery ancient I promise you those lawes were first made by king Henrie the 8. about fiftie yeares since Is not that great antiquitie Theo. The lawes that I speake of are 500 yeares old and were in full force vnder William Rufus and Henrie the 1. the Sonnes of William the Conquerer Phi. Did they restraine their subiectes from going to Rome Theo. Whether they did or no iudge you When Anselmus Archbishop of Canterbury asked leaue of William Rufus to go to Rome the king replied that no Archbishop nor Bishop of his realm should be subiect to the Pope or court of Rome especially since hee had all those liberties in his kingdom which the Emperour had in the Empire And for this cause was Anselmus conuented by the king as an offendour against the State And to this accusation did the most of the Bishops except the Bishop of Rochester giue their consentes And for that he ventered ouer the Seas to Rome without leaue All his goods cattels were seased to the kings vse all his actes proceedings in the Church of England reuersed himselfe constrained to liue in banishmēt during the life of king