France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisy of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Shorthand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democraâ—ical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the world And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his Power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his Power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas beâ—â—â— the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express Licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to
but his Trial and Execution were deferred a long time till January 10. 1643. for the entertainment of the Scots that were come into England to aid the Parliament B. Why did the Scots think there was so much danger in the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury he was not a Man of War nor a Man able to bring an Army into the Field but he was perhaps a very great Politician A. That did not appear by any remarkable events of his Councils I never heard but he was a very honest man for his Morals and a very zealous promoter of the Church Government by Bishops and that he desired to have the Service of God performed and the House of God adorned as suitably as was possible to the honour we ought to do to the Divine Majesty But to bring as he did into the State his Former Controversies I mean his squablings in the University about Free Will and his standing upon Punctilio's concerning the Service-Book and its Rubricks was not in my opinion an Argument of his sufficiency in Affairs of State About the same time they passed an Act which the King consented to for a Triennial Parliament wherein was Enacted That after the present Parliament there should be a Parliament call'd by the King within the space of three years and so from three years to three years to meet at Westminster upon a certain day named in the Act. B. But what if the King did not call it finding it perhaps inconvenient or Hurtfull to to the Safety or Peace of his People which God hath put into his Charge for I do not well comprehend how any Soveraign can well keep a People in order when his hands are tiâ—d or when he hath any other Obligation upon him than the benefit of those he Governs And at this time for any thing you told me they acknowledged the King for their Sovereign A. I know not but such was the Act And it was farther Enacted That if the King did it not by his own Command then the Lord Chancellour or the Lord Keeper for the time being should send out the Writs of Summons And if the Chancellour refused then the Sheriffs of the several Counties of themselves at the next County Courts before the day set down for the Parliaments meeting should proceed to the Election of the Members for the said Parliament B. But what if the Sheriffs refused A. I think they were to be sworn to it but for that and other particulars I refer you to the Act. B. To whom should they be sworn when there is no Parliament A. No doubt but to the King whether there be a Parliament sitting or no. B. Then the K. may Release them of their Oath A. Besides They obtained of the King the putting down the Star Chamber and the High Commission Courts B. Besides If the King upon the refusal should fall upon them in Anger Who shall the Parliament not sitting Protect either the Chancellor or the Sheriffs in their Disobedience A. I pray you do not ask me any Reason of such things I understand no better than you I tell you only an Act passed to that purpose and was Sâ—gned by the King in the middle of February a little before the Arch Bishop was sent to the Tower Besides this Bill the two Houses of Parliament agreed upon another wherein it was Enacted That the present Parliament would continue till both the Houses did consent to the Dissolution of it which Bill also the King Signed the same day he Signed the Warrant for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford B. What a great Progress made the Parliament towards the ends of the most seditious Members of both Houses in so little time They sat down in November and now it was May in this space of time which is but half a year they won from the King the Adhearance which was due to him from his People they drove his faithfullest Servants from him beheaded the Earl of Strafford Imprisoned the Arch Bishop of Canterbury obtained a Triennial Parliament after their Own dissolution and a continuance of their own sitting as long as they listed which last a mounted to a total extinction of the Kings right in case that such a grant were vaild which I think it is not unless the soveraignty it self be in plain termes renounced which it was not but what money by way of subsidue or otherwise did they grant the King in recompence of all these his large concessions A. None at all but often promised they would make him the most glorious King that ever was in England which were words that passed well enough for wel meaning with the common People B. But the Parliament was contented now for I cannot imagine what they should desire more from the King than he had now granted them A Yes they desired the whole and absolute soveraignty and to change the Monarchical government into an Oligarchie that is to say to make the Parliament consisting of a few Lords and about 400 Commoners absolute in the soveraignty for the present and shortly after to lay the house of Lords aside for this was the design of the Presbyterian Ministers who taking themselves to be by Divine right the onely Lawful governers of the Church endeavoured to bring the same form of Government into the Civil state and as the spiritual Laws were to be made by their Synods so their Civil Laws should be made by the House of Commons who as they thought would no less be ruled by them afterwards than formerly they had been wherein they were deceived and found themselves out gon by their own Disciples though not in malice yet in Wit B. What followed after this A. In August following the King supposing he had now sufficiently obliged the Parliament to proceed no farther against him took a journey into Scotland to satisfy his Subjects there as he had done here intending perhaps so to gain their good wills that in case the Parliament here should levy Armes against him they should not be aided by the Scots wherein he also was deceived for though they seemed satisfied with what he did whereof one thing was his giveing away to the Aâ—olction of Episcopacy Yet afterwards they made a League with the Parliament and for money when the King began to have the better of the Parliament invaded England in the Parliaments Quarrel but this was a Year or two after B. Before you go any farther I desire to know the ground and Original of that Right which either the House of Lords or House of Commons or both together pretend to A. It is a question of things so long past that they are now forgotten nor have we any thing to conjecture by but the Records of our own Nation and some small and obscure fragments of Roman Histories And for the Records seeing they are of things only done sometimes justly sometimes unjustly you can never by them know what Right they had but only what right they pretended B.
raised to fight against him A. Nay farther they put to the King's Accompts the 30000 l. given to the Scots without which they would not have Invaded England besides many other things that I now remember not B. I did not think there had been so great Impudence and Villany in Mankind A. You have not observ'd the world long enough to see all that 's ill Such was their Remonstrance as I have told you with it they sent a Petition containing three points First That His Majesty would deprive the Bishops of their Votes in Parliament and remove such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as they had brought in Secondly That he would remove from his Council all such as should promote the Peoples Grievances and Imploy in his great and publick Affairs such as the Parliament should confide in Thirdly That he would not give away the Lands Escheated to the Crown by the Rebellion in Ireland B. This last point methinks was not wisely put in at this time it should have been reserv'd till they had subdued the Rebels against whom there were yet no Forces sent over 'T is like selling the Lions Skin before they had kill'd him But what answer was made to the other two Propositions A. What answer should be made but a Denial About the same time the King himself Exhibited Articles against six persons of the Parliament five whereof were of the House of Commons and one of the House of Lords accusing them of High Treason and upon the fourth of January went himself to the House of Commons to demand those five of them but private notice having been given by some Treacherous person about the King they had absented themselves and by that means frustrated His Majesties Intention and after he was gone the House making a hainous matter of it and a High Breach of their Priviledges adjourned themselves into London there to sit as a General Committee pretending they were not safe at Westminster for the King when he went to the House to demand those persons had somewhat more attendance with him but not otherwise armed than his servants used to be than he ordinarily had and would not be pacified though the King did afterwards wave the prosecution of those persons unless he would also discover to them those that gave him Counsel to go in that manner to the Parliament-House to the end they might receive condign punishment which was the Word they used instead of Cruelty B. This was a harsh Demand Was it not enough that the King should forbear his Enemies but also that he must betray his Friends If they thus Tyraniâ—e over the King before they have gotten the Soveraign Power into their Hands how will they Tyranize over their Fellow-Subjects when they have gotten it A. So as they did B. How long staid that Committee in London A. Not above 2 or 3 Days and then were brought from London to the Parliament-House by Water in great Triumph guarded with a tumultuous number of Armed Men there to sit in security in despite of the King and make Traiterous Acts against Him such and as many as they listed and under favour of these Tumults to frighten away from the House of Peers all such as were not of their own Faction for at this time tâ—e Rabble was so insolent that scarce any of the Bishops durst go to the House for fear of Violence upon their Persons insomuch that Twelve of them excused themselves of Coming thither and by way of Perition to the King remonstrated that they were not permitted to go quietly to the Performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none Effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced Absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon Ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there was no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament And to this Bill they got the Kings Assent and in the beginning of Sept. after they Voted the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the Kings Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members For I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower-House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democrasie and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourably laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole world What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls
thus The Laws of the Aethiopians seem very different from those of other Nations and especially about the Election of their Kings for the Priests propound some of the Chief Men among them named in a Catalogue and when the God which according to a certain Custom is carried about to Feastings does accept of him the Multitude Elect for their King and presently adore and honour him as a God put into the Government by Divine Providence The King being chosen he has the manner of his Life limited to him by the Laws and does all other things according to the Custom of the Country neither rewarding nor punishing any man otherwise than from the begining is establisht amongst them by Law nor use they to put any man to death though he be condemn'd to it but to send some Officer to him with a Token of Death who seeing the Token goes presently to his own house and kills himself presently after But the strangest thing of all is that which they do concerning the Death of their Kings for the Priests that live in Meroe and spend their time about the worship and honour of the gods and are in greatest Authority when they have a mind to it send a Messenger to the King to bid him die for that the gods have given such order and that the Commandments of the Immortals are not by any means to be neglected by those that are by nature Mortal using also other speeches to him with men of simple Judgment that have not reason enough to dispute against those unnecessary Commands as being educated under an old and indelible Custom are content to admit of therefore in former times the Kings did obey the Priests not as mastered by force and Arms but as having their reason mastered by superstition But in the time of Ptolomy the second Ergamenes King of the Aethiopians having had his Breeding in Philosophy after the manner of the Greeks being the first that durst dispute their power took heart as befitted a King came with souldiers to a place called Abaton where was then the golden Temple of the Aethiopians killed all the Priests abolished the Custom and rectified the Kingdom according to his will B. Though they that were kill'd were most damnable Impostors yet the Act was cruel A. It was so But were not the Priests cruel to cause their Kings whom a little before they adored as Gods to make away themselves The King kill'd them for the safety of his person they him out of Ambition or love of Change The King's Act may be coloured with the good of his People the Priests had no pretence against their Kings who were certainly very godly or else would never have obeyed the Command of the Priests by a Messenger unarmed to kill themselves Our late King the best King perhaps that ever was you know was murdered having been first persecuted by War at the Incitement of Presbyterian Ministers who are therefore guilty of the Death of all that fell in that War which were I believe in England Scotland and Ireland near one hundred thousand persons Had it not been much better that those seditious Ministers which were not perhaps a thousand had been all kill'd before that they had Preached It had been I confess a great Massacre but the killing of a hundred thousand is a greater B. I am glad the Bishops were out at this business as ambitious as some say they are it did not appear in that business for they were Enemies to them that were in it A. But I intend not by these Quotations to commend either the Divinity nor the Philosophy of those Heathen People but to shew only what the Reputation of those Sciences can effect among the People For their Divinity was nothing but Idolatry and their Philosophy excepting the knowledge of the Aegyptian Priests and from them the Chaldaeans had gotten by long Observation and Study in Astronomy Geometry and Arithmetick very little and that in great part abused in Astrology and Fortune-telling whereas the Divinity of the Clergy in this Nation now considered apart from the mixture that has been introduced by the Church of Rome and in part retained here of the babling Philosophy of Aristotle and other Greeks that has no Affinity with Religion and serves only to breed Disaffection Dissention and finally Sedition and Civil War as we have lately found by dear Experience in the Differences between the Presbyterians and Episcopals is the true Religion But for these Differences both Parties as they were in Power not only suppressed the Tenents of one another but also whatsoever Doctrine lookt with an ill aspect upon their Interest and consequently all true Philosophy especially Civil and Moral which can never appear propitious to Ambition or to an Exemption from Obedience due to the Soveraign Power After the King had accused the Lord Kimbolton a Member of the Lords House and Hollis Haslâ—rig Hampden Prinn and Stroud Five Members of the Lower House of High Treason and after the Parliament had Voted out the Bishops from the House of Peers they pursued especially two things in their Petitions to His Majesty the one was that the King would declare who were the persons that advised him to go as he did to the parliament-Parliament-House to apprehend them and that he would leave them to the Parliament to receive condign punishment and this they did to stick upon His Majesty the dishonour of Deserting his Friends and betraying them to his Enemies the other was that he would allow a Guard out of the City of London to be commanded by the Earl of Essex for which they pretended they could not else sit in safety which pretence was nothing but an upbraiding of His Majesty for coming to Parliament better accompanied than ordinary to seize the said five seditious Members B. I see no reason in petitioning for a Guard they should determine it to the City of London in particular and the Command by name to the Earl of Essex unless they meant the King should understand it a Guard against himself A. Their meaning was that the King should understand it so and as I verily believe they meant he should take it as an affront and the King himself understanding it so denied to grant it though he were willing if they could not otherwise be satisfied to Command such a Guard to wait upon them as he would be responsible for to God Almighty Besides this the City of London petition'd the King put upon it no doubt by some Members of the Lower House to put the Tower of London into the hands of persons of Trust meaning such as the Parliament should approve of And so appoint a Guard for the safety of His Majesty and the Parliament This method of bringing petitions in a Tumultary Manner by great Multitudes of Clamorous people was ordinary with the House of Commons whose Ambition could never have been served by way of Prayer and Request without extraordinary terror After the King had waved the
him that Christ being King of all the World had given the disposing of all the Kingdoms therein to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have Power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western Parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the time of Pope Leo the 3. and Pope Innocent the 3. For in this time Pope Zachary 1. deposed Chilperick then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin And Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church shortly after the Lombards having recovered their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the 3. made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope there pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christs Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special Manner in such a Manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshua had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope for when the Pope inuested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cryed out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it and from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the gift of God and their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter â—rom a Bishop 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose gift they reign but it cannot from that Custom be infer'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation from the Pope or by any other Clergy for the Popes themselves received the Papacy from the Emperor the first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent excused himself by Letter to the Emperor with this that the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperour did but with Reprehension of their Proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come the Emperour was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperour never acknowledged this gift of God was the gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the gift of the Emperour but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperour for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the people believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than unto the Commands of their own King whensoever it should come into Controversy and to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome's Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scripture as first That it should not be lawful for a Priest to Marry What influence could that have upon the Power of Kings do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most Religious part of his Subjects or else want lawful Heirs to succeed in by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any Controversy between Him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for amongst them Episcopus was a name common to all Kings Is not he a Bishop now to whom God hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and of the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pasture of Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laick and Clergy and he only Shepheard and seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian indued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not only a Bishop but an Archbishop and his whole Kingdom his Diocess and though it were granted that Imposition of Hands were necessary for a Priest yet seeing Kings have the power of Government of the Clergy that are the Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self wherein he is received as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you this Prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh and William the First King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelers at his Service Secondly That Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that Confessed in writing but that use was taken away about the time of King Edward the Third and Priests commanded to take Confessions from the Mouth of the Confitent and men did generally believe that without Confession and Absolution before their departure out of the World they could not be saved and having Absolution from a Priest they could not be damned You understand by this how much every man would stand in awe of the Pope and Clergy more than they would of the King and what inconveniency
might do something that might look like Hostility It hapned in the year 1637. that the King by the advice as it is thought of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for Conformity to this Kingdom by the ministers there for an ordinary form of Divine Service this being read out the Church at Edinburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much adoe to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves to put down Episcopacy without consulting the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own Confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them for the thing which those Democraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hinderance to his designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to Battle And with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scotch sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it the issue was Peace and the King thereupon went to Edinburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their Satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yielded to the abolishing of it but by the means the English were crossed in their hope of a Parliament but the Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliament's help at no less a price than Soveraignty it self B. But what was the Cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from Episcopacy For I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that they were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church Discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-ruled by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other men are Pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other mens thoughts farther than I am lead by the consideration of Human Nature in general But upon this consideration I see First That men of antient Wealth and Nobility are not apt to brook that poor Schollars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their Fellows Secondly That from the emulation of Glory between the Nations they be willing to see their Nation afflicted with Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some Power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great sum of money as a reward of their assistance besides great Booty which they afterwards obtained but whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling of them down was not all they aimed at if it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down of Bishops in England and in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that pacification which they were before contented with howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London they sent up to some of their friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they pretended the Articles of the said Pacification a false and Scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I have heard publickly and so both parts returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in Person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour oâ— Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his Power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that Conquered Carthage by the Valor and Conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man Valiant and Wise enough but he perished in the imployment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is but a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed success in War upon a Name or Family B. After the Pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Councellors they could
own use What said the People to that A. What else but that it was legal and to be paid as being Imposed by consent of Parliament B. I have heard often that they ought to pay what was imposed by consent of Parliament to the use of the King but to their own use never before I see by this it is easier to gull the multitude than any one man amongst them for what one man that has his Natural Judgment depraved by accident could be so easily cousened in a matter that concerns his Purse had he not been passionately carried away by the rest to change of Government or rather to a Liberty of every one to Govern himself A. Judge then what kind of men such a multitude of Ignorant People were like to elect for the Burgeses and Knights of Shires B. I can make no other Judgment but that they who were then elected were just such as had been elected for former Parliaments and as are like to be elected for Parliaments to come for the Common people have been and always will be ignorant of their Duty to the Publick as never meditating any thing but their particular Interest in other things following their immediate Leaders which are either the Preachers or the most potent of the Gentlemen that dwell amongst them as Common Souldiers for the most part follow their Captains if they like them If you think the late miseries have made them wiser that will quickly be forgot and then we shall be no wiser than we were A. Why may not men be taught their Duty that is the Science of Just and Unjust as divers other Sciences have been taught from true Principles and Demonstrations and much more easily than any of those Preachers and Democratical Gent. could Rebellion and Treason B. But who can teach what none have learned or if any Man hath been so singular as to have studied the Science of Justice and Equity how can he teach it safely when it is against the Interest of those that are in possession of the Power to hurt him A. The Rules of the Just and Unjust sufficiently demonstrated and from Principles evident to the meanest capacity have not been wanting and notwithstanding the obscurity of their Author have shined not only in this but in forreign Countries to men of good Education but they are few in respect of the rest of men whereof many cannot read many though they can have no leasure and of them that have leasure the greatest part have their minds wholly imployed and taken up by their private businesses or pleasures so that it is impossible that the Multitude should ever learn their Duty but from the Pulpit and upon Holy-dayes but then and from thence it is that they learned their Disobedience and therefore the light of that Doctrine has been hitherto coverred and kept under hereby a cloud of adversaries which no private man's reputation can break through without the Authority of the Universities but from the Universities came all those Preachers that taught the contrary The Universities have been to this Nation as the Wooden-Horse was to the Trojans B. Can you tell me why and when the Universities here first began A. It seems for the time they began in the Reign of the Emperour Charles the Great before which time I doubt not but there were many Grammar Schools for the Latine Tongue which was the Natural Language of the Roman Church but for Universities that is to say Schools for the Science in general and especially for Divinity it is manifest that the Institution of them was recommended by the Pope's Letter to the Emperor Charles the great and recommended farther by a Council held in his time I think at Chal. sur Saone and not long after was erected an University at Paris and the Colledge called University Colledge at Oxford and so by degrees several Bishops Noblemen and Rich men and some Kings and Queens contributing thereunto the Universities at last obtained their present Splendor B. But what was the Pope's designe in it A. What other design was he like to have but what you heard before the advancement oâ— his own Authority in the Countries where the Universities were erected There they learned to Dispute for him and with unintelligible Distinctions to blind mens Eyes whilst they encroached upon the Rights of Kings and it was an evident Argument of that Design that they fell in hand with the work so quickly for the first Rector of the University of Paris as I have read some where was Peter Lombard who fiâ—st brought it to them the Learning called School Divinity and was seconded by John Scot of Duns who lived in or near the same time whom any Ingenious Reader not knowing what was the design would judge to have been the most egregious Blockhead in the world so obscure and senseless are their Writings And from these the School-men that succeeded learnt the trick of Imposing what they list upon their Readers and declining the force of true Reason by verbal Forks I mean distinctions that signify nothing but serve only to astonish the multitude of ignorant men as for the understanding Readers they were so few that these new sublime Doctors cared not what they thought these School men were to make good all the Articles of Faith which the Pope from time to time should command to be believed Amongst which there were very many inconsistent with the Rights of Kings and other Civil Soveraigns as asserting to the Pope all Authority whatsoever they should declare to be necessary in ordine ad Spiritualia that is to say In order to Religion From the Universities also it was that Preachers proceeded and were poured out into City and Country to terrify the People into an absolute Obedience to the Pope's Canons and Commands which for fear of wakening Kings and Princes too much they durst not yet call them Laws From the Universities it was that the Phylosophy of Aristotle was made an Ingredient to Religion as serving for a Salve to a great many absurd Articles concerning the Nature of Christs Body and the State of Angels and Saints in Heaven which Articles they thought fit to have believ'd because they bring some of them profit and others Reverence to the Clergy even to the meanest of them for when they shall have made the People believe that the meanest of them can make the Body of Christ Who is there that will not both shew them Reverence and be Liberal to them or to the Church especially in the time of their sickness when they think they make and bring to them their Saviour B. But what advantage to them in these Impostures was the Doctrine of Aristotle A. They have made more use of his Obscurity than his Doctrine for none of the Ancient Phylosophers Writings are Comparable to those of Aristotle for their aptness to puzzle and entangle men with words and to breed Disputation which must at last be ended in the Determination of the Church
every Man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like points are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans Duty to obey him or them that have the Sovereign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with arguments for liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Câ—cero Seâ—ica and 〈◊〉 of the Histories of 〈…〉 for their disputation against the 〈…〉 power of their 〈…〉 therefore I dispare of any 〈…〉 our selves till the 〈…〉 their studies to the 〈…〉 obedience to the Laws of the 〈…〉 to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory can do over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of state as is necessary for the Business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry the 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are Govern'd and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferiour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the hands of Popes Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergie B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or purses when they shal be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The 2 Great vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7 was without much noise of the people to â—ill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks me thinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchirstian and unhuman design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Aâ—tual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true poliâ—icks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey aâ— Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd suâ—â— as are fit to make Men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them to make Men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the â—ing and that no Man has Title to Govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to God onlâ— and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting â—or the coming again of our blessed Saviour and
which was not only false but also without any ground at all for a Suspicion B. It is a strange thing that Scholars obscure men that could receive no Charity but from the flame of the State should be suffered to bring their unnecessary Disputes and together with them their quarrels out of the Universities into the Commonwealth and more strange that the State should engage in their Parties and not rather put them both to silence A State can constrain Obedience but convince no Error nor alter the Mind of them that believe they have the better reason Suppression of Doctrines does but unite and exasperate that is increase both the malice and Power of them that have already believed them But what are the Points they disagree in Is there any Controversy between Bishop and Presbyterian concerning the Divinity oâ— Humanity of Christ Do either of them deny the Trinity or any Article of the Creed Does either Party Preach openly or Write directly against Justice Charity Sobriety or any other Duty necessary to Salvation except only the Duty to the King and not that neither but when they had a mind either to Rule or Destroy the King Lord have mercy upon us Can no body be saved that understands not their Disputations or is there more requisite either of Faith or Honesty for the Salvation of one Man than another What needs so much Preaching of Faith to us that are no Heathens and that believe already all that Christ and his Apostles have told us is necessary to Salvation and more too Why is there so little Preaching of Justice I have indeed heard Righteousness often recommended to the People but I have seldom heard the word Justice in their Sermons nay though in the the Latine and Greek Bible the word Justice occurr exceeding often yet in the English though it be a word that every man understands the word Righteousness which few understand to signify the same but take it rather for Righteousness of Opinion than of Action or Intention is put in the place of it A. I confess I know very few Controversies amongst Christians of points necessary to Salvation they are the Questions of Authority and Power over the Church or of Profit or Honour to Church-men that for the most part raise all the Controversies For what man is he that will trouble himself and fall out with his Neighbours for the saving of my Soul or the Soul of any other than himself When the Presbyterian Ministers and others did so furiously Preach Sedition and animate men to Rebellion in these late Wars Who was there that had not a Benefit or having one feared not to loose it or some other part of his Maintenance by the alteration of the Government that did voluntarily without any eye to reward Preach so earnestly against Sedition As the other party Preached for it I confess that for ought I have observed in History and other Writings of the Heathens Greek and Latine that those Heathens were not at all short of us in point of Vertue and Moral Duties notwithstanding that we have had much Preaching and they none at all I confess also that considering what harm might proceed form a Liberty that Men have upon every Sunday and oftner to Harangue all the People of a Nation at one time whilst the State is ignorant what they will say and that there is no such thing permitted in all the World out of Christendom nor therefore any Civil Wars about Religion I have thought much Preaching an inconvenience nevertheless I cannot think that Preaching to the People the points of their Duty both to God and Man can be too frequent so it be done by Grave Discreet and Antient men that are Reverenced by the People and not by light quibling young men whom no Congregation is so simple as to look to be taught by as being a thing contrary to nature or to pay them any Reverence or to care what they say except some few that may he delighted with their Jingling I wish with all my Heart there were enough of such Discreet and Antient men as might suffice for all the Parishes of England and that they would undertake it but this is but a wish I leave it to the wisdom of the State to do what it pleaseth B. What did they next A. Whereas the King had sent Prisoners into Places remote from London three Persons that had been condemned for publishing seditious Doctrine some in Writing some in publick Sermons that Parliament whether with his Majesties consent or no I have forgotten caused them to be released and to Return to London meaning I think to try how the People would be pleased therewith and by consequence how their endeavours to draw the Peoples Affections from the King had already prospered when these three came through London it was a kind of Triumph the People flocking together to behold them and receiving them with such Acclamations and almost Adoration as if they had been let down from Heaven Insomuch that the Parliament was now sufficiently assured of a great and tumultuous Party whensoever they should have occasion to use it on confidence whereof they proceeded to their next Plot which was to deprive the King of such Ministers as by their Courage Wisdom and Authority they thought most able to prevent or oppose their further Designs against the King And first the House of Commons resolv'd to impeach the Earl of Strafford Lord Lieutenant of Ireland of High-Treason B What was that Earl of Strafford before he had that Place And how had he offended the Parliament or given them cause to think he would be their Enemy For I have heard that in former Parliaments he had been as Parliamentary as any other A. His name was Sr. Thomas Wentworth a Gentleman both for birth and estate very considerable in his own Country which was Yorkshire but more considerable for his Judgment in the Publick Affairs not only of that Country but generally of the Kingdom either as Burgess for some Borrough or Knight of the Shire for his Principles of Politicks they were the same that were generally proceeded upon by all Men else that are thought fit to be chosen for the Parliament which are commonly these To take for the Rule of Justice and the Government the Judgments and Acts of former Parliaments which are commonly called Precedents to Endeavour to keep the People from being Subject to Extra-Parliamentary Taxes of money And from being with Parliamentary Taxes too much oppressed to preserve to the People their Liberty of Body from their Arbitrary Power of the King out of Parliament To seek Redress of Grievances B. What Grievances A. The Grievances were commonly such as these the Kings too much Liberality to some favorite The too much power of any Minister of State or Officer the Misdemeanours of Judges Civil or Spiritual but especially all Unparliamentary raising of Mony upon the Subjects And commonly of late till such grievances be redressed they refuse
general the Irish Nation did hate the name of Subjection to England or would longer be quiet than they feared an Army out of England to chastize them What better time then could they take for their Rebellion than this wherein they were encouraged not only by our weakness caused by this Division between the King and his Parliament but also by the Example of the Presbyterians both of the Scotch and English Nation But what did the Parliament do upon this occasion in the King's absence A. Nothing but consider what use they might make of it to their own ends partly by imputing it to the King 's evil Councillors and partly by occasion thereof to demand of the King the Power of Pressing and Ordering of Souldiers which Power whosoever has has also without doubt the whole Soveraignty B. When came the King back A. He came back the 25th of November and and was welcomed with the Acclamations of the Common People as much as if had been the most beloved of the Kings before him but found not a Reception by the Parliament answerable to it They presently began to pick new Quarrels against him out of every thing he said to them December the 2d the King called together both Houses of Parliament and then did only recommend unto them the raising of Succours for Ireland B. What Quarrel could they pick out of that A. None but in order thereto as they may pretend they had a Bill in Agitation to assert the power of Levying Pressing Souldiers to the two Houses of the Lords and Commons which was as much as to take from the King the Power of the Militia which is in effect the whole Soveraign Power for he that hath the Power of Levying and Commanding of the Souldiers has all other Rights of Soveraignty which he shall please to claim The King hearing of it called the Houses of Parliament together again on December the 14th and then pressed again the business of Ireland as there was need for all this while the Irish were murdering the English in Ireland and strengthening themselves against the Forces they expected to come out of England and withall told them he took notice of the Bill in Agitation for Pressing of Souldiers and that he was content it should pass with a Salvo Jure both for him and them because the present time was unreasonable to dispute it in B. What was there unreasonable in this A. Nothing what 's unreasonable is one question what they quarrelled at is another They quarrelled at this that His Majesty took notice of the Bill while it was in debate in the House of Lords before it was presented to him in the Course of Parliament And also that he shewed himself displeased with those that propounded the third Bill both which they declared to be against the Priviledges of Parliament and petitioned the King to give them Reparation against those by whose evil Council he was induced to it that they might receive condign punishment B. This was cruel proceeding Do not the Kings of England use to sit in the Lords House when they please And was not this Bill then in debate in the House of Lords It is a strange thing that a man should be lawfully in the company of men where he must needs hear and see what they say and do and yet must not take notice of it so much as to the same Company for though the King was not present at the Debate it self yet it was lawful for any of the Lords to make him acquainted with it Any one of the House of Commons though not present at a Proposition or Debate in the House nevertheless hearing of it from some of his fellow-Members may certainly not only take notice of it but also speak to it in the House of Commons But to make the King give up his Friends and Councillors to them to be put to Death Banishment or Imprisonment for their good will to him was such a Tyranny over a King no King ever exercised over any Subject but in cases of Treason or Murder and seldom then A. Presently hereupon grew a kind of War between the Peers of Parliament and those of the Secretaries and other able Men that were with the King For upon the 15th of December they sent to the King a Paper called a Remonstrance of the Sate of the Kingdom and with it a Petition both which they caused to be published in the Remonstrance they complained of certain mischievous Designs of a Malignant Party then before the beginning of the Parliament grown ripe and did set forth what means had been used for the preventing of it by the Wisdom of the Parliament what Rubs they had found therein what course was fit to be taken for the restoring and establishing the Antient Honour Greatness and Safety of the Crown and Nation And of those Designs the Promoters and Actors were they said 1. Jesuits and Papists 2. The Bishops and part of the Clergy that cherish Formality as a support of their own Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Usurpation 3. Councillors and Courtiers that for private ends they said had engaged themselves to farther the Interests of some Forein Princes B. It may well be that some of the Bishops and also some of the Court may have in pursuit of their private Interest done something indiscreetly and perhaps wickedly therefore I pray to tell me particularly what their Crimes were for methinks the King should not have conniv'd at any thing against his own Supream Authority A. The Parliament were not very keen against them that were against the King They made no doubt but all they did was by the King's Command but accused thereof the Bishops Councillors and Courtiers as being a more mannerly way of Accusing the King himself and and defaming him to his Subjects For the truth is the Charge they brought against them was so general as not to be called an Accusation but Railing As first They said they nourished Questions of Prerogatives and Liberty between the King and his People to the end that seeming much addicted to His Majesties Service they might get themselves into places of greatest Trust and Power in the Kingdom B. How could this be call'd an Accusation in which there is no Fact for any Accusers to apply their Proof to or their Witnesses for granting that these Questions of Prerogative had been moved by them who can prove that their End was to gain to themselves and Friends the Places of Trust and Power in the Kingdom A. A second Accusation was that they endeavour'd to suppress the Purity and Power of Religion B. That 's Canting It is not in Mans power to suppress the Power of Religion A. They meant that they supprest the Doctrine of the Presbyterians that is to say the very Foundation of their Parliaments Treacherous Pretensions A third That they cherished Arminians Papists and Libertines by which they meant the common Protestants that meddle not with Disputes to the end they
might compose a body fit to Act according to their Counsels and Resolutions A fourth That they endeavoured to put the King upon other courses of Raising Money than by the ordinary way of Parliaments Judge whether these may be properly called Accusations or not rather spightful Reproaches of the King's Government B. Methinks this last was a very great fault for what good could there be in putting the King upon any odd course of getting Money when the Parliament was willing to supply him as far as to the security of the Kingdom or to the honour of the King should be necessary A. But I told you before they would give him none but with a Condition he should cut off the heads of whom they pleased how faithfully soever they had serv'd him and if he would have sacrificed all his Friends to their Ambition yet they would have found other excuses to deny him Subsidies for they were resolv'd to take from him the Soveraign Power to themselves which they would never do without taking great care that he should have no Money at all In the next place they put into the Remonstrance as faults of them whose Council the King followed All those things which since the beginning of the King's Reign were by them mis-liked whether faults or not and whereof they were not able to judge for want of knowledge of the Causes and Motives that induced the King to do them and were known only to the King himself and such of his Privy-Council as he revealed them to B. But what were those particular pretended faults A. First The Dissolution of his last Parliament at Oxford Secondly The Dissolution of his second Parliament being in the second year of his Reign Thirdly The Dissolution of his Parliament in the fourth year of his Reign Fourthly The fruitless Expedition against Cales Fifthly The Peace made with Spain whereby the Palatine's Cause was deserted and left to chargeable and hopeless Treaties Sixthly The sending of Commissions to raise Money by way of Loan Seventhly Raising of Ship-money Eighthly Enlargements of Forrests contrary to Magna-Charta Ninthly The Designment of Engrossing all the Gun-powder into one hand and keeping it in the Tower of London Tenthly A Design to bring in the Use of Brass-Money Eleventhly The Fines Imprisonments Stigmatizings Mutilations Whippings Pillories Gaggs Confinements and Banishments by Sentence in the Court of Star-Chamber Twelfthly The Displacing of Judges Thirteenthly The Illegal Acts of Council-Table Fourteenthly The Arbitrary and Illegal Power of the Earl-Marshal's Court. Fifteenthly The Abuses in Chancery Exchequer-Chamber and Court of Wards Sixteenthly The selling of Titles of Honour of Judges and Serjeants Places and other Offices Seventeenthly The Insolence of Bishops and other Clarks in Suspensions Excommunications and Degradations of divers painful and learned and pious Ministers B. Were there any such Ministers Degraded Depraved or Excommunicated A. I cannot tell But I remember I have heard threatned divers painful unlearned and seditious Ministers Eighteenthly The Excess of Severity of the High Commission-Court Nineteenthly The Preaching before the King against the Property of the Subject and for the Prerogative of the King above the Law and divers other petty Quarrels they had to the Government which though they were laid upon this Faction yet they knew they would fall upon the King himself in the Judgment of the People to whom by Printing it was communicated Again After the Dissolution of the Parliament May the 5th 1640. they find other faults as the Dissolution it self the Imprisoning some Members of both Houses a forced Loan of Money attempted in London the Continuance of the Convocation when the Parliament was ended and the favour shewed to Papists by Secretary Windebank and others B. All this will go current with common people for Mis-government and for faults of the King 's though some of them were Misfortunes and both the Mis-fortunes and the Mis-government if any were were the faults of the Parliament who by denying to give him Money did both frustrate his Attempts abroad and put him upon those extraordinary waies which they call Illegal of raising Money at home A. You see what a heap of Evils they have raised to make a shew of ill Government to the People which they second with an enumeration of the many services they have done the King in overcoming a great many of them though not all and in divers other things and say that though they had contracted a Debt to the Scots of 22000 l. and granted six Subsidies and a Bill of Pole-money worth six Subsidies more yet that God had so blessed the Endeavours of this Parliament that the Kingdom was a gainer by it and then follows the Catalogue of those good things they had done for the King and Kingdom For the Kingdom they had done they said these things They had abolished Shipâ— money They had taken away Coat and Conduct-money and other Military Charges which they said amounted to little less than the Ship-money That they supprest all Monopolies which they reckoned above a Million yearly sav'd by the Subject That they had quell'd Living Grievances meaning Evil Councillors and Actors by the Death of my Lord Strafford by the flight of the Chancellor Finch and of Secretary Windebank by the Imprisonment of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury and Judges that they had past a Bill for a Triennial Parliament and another for the Continuance of the present Parliament till they should think fit to Dissolve themselves B. That is to say for ever if they be suffered But the summe of all those things which they had done for the Kingdom is that they had left it without Government without Strength without Money without Law and without good Council A. They reckoned also putting down of the High Commission and the abating of the Power of the Council-Table and of the Bishops and their Courts the taking away of unnecessary Ceremonies in Religion removing of Ministers from their Livings that were not of their Faction and putting in such as were B. All this was but their own and not the Kingdoms business A. The Good they had done the King was first they said the giving of 25000 l. a month for the Relief of the Northern Counties B. What need of Relief had the Northern more than the rest of the Counties of England B. Yes In the Northern Counties were quartered the Scotch Army which the Parliament call'd in to oppose the King and consequently their Quarter was to be discharged B. True but by the Parliament that call'd them in A. But they say no and that this Money was given the King because he is bound to protect his Subjects B. He is no farther bound to that than they to give him Money wherewithal to do it This is very great Impudence to raise an Army against the King and with that Army to oppress their Fellow-subjects and then require that the King should relieve them that is to say be at the Charge of Paying the Army that was
have heard I believe how great a Darling of the people his Father had been before him and what Honour he had gotten by the success of his Enterprize upon Cales and in some other Military actions To which I may add That this Earl himself was not held by the People to be so great a Favourite at Court as that they might not trust him with their Army against the King and by this you may perhaps conjecture the cause for which the Parliament made choice of him for General B. But why did they think him discontented with the Court A. I know not that nor indeed that he was so he came to Court as other Noblemen did when occasion was to wait upon the King but had no Office till a little before this time to oblige him to be there continually but I believe verily that the unfortunateness of his Marriage had so discountenanced his Conversation with Ladies that the Court could be his proper Element unless he had had some extraordinary savour there to balance that calamity for particular discontent from the King or intention of revenge for any supposed disgrace I think he had none nor that he was any wayes addicted to Presbyterian Doctrines or other Fanatick Tenets in Church or State saving only that he was carried away with the stream in a manner of the whole Nation to think that England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy not considering that the Supreme Power must alwayes be absolute whether it be in the King or in the Parliament B. Who was General of the Kings Army A. None yet but Himself nor indeed had He yet any Army but there coming to him at that time two Nephews the Princes Rupert and Maurice He put the Command of His Horse into the hands of Prince Rupert a Man then whom no man living has a better courage nor was more active and diligent in prosecuting his Commission and though but a young Man then was not without experience in the conducting of Soldiers as having been an Actor in part of his Fathers Wars in Germany B. But how would the King find money to pay such an Army as was necessary for Him against the Parliament A. Neither the King nor Parliament had much money at that time in their own hands but were fain to relie upon the Benevolence of those that took their parts wherein I confess the Parliament had a mighty great advantage those that helped the King in that kind were only Lords and Gentlemen which not approving the proceedings of the Parliament were willing to undertake the payment every one of a certain number of Horse which cannot be thought any very great assistance the persons that payed them being so few for other Monies that the King then had I have not heard of any but what he borrow'd upon Jewels in the Low-Countries whereas the Parliament had a very plentiful Contribution not only from London but generally from their Faction in all other places of England upon certain Propositions published by the Lords and Commons in June 1642. at which time they had newly Voted That the King intended to make War upon them for bringing in of Money or Plate to maintain Horse and Horsemen and to buy Arms for the preservation of the Publick Peace and for the defence of the King and both Houses of Parliament for the Re-payment of which Money and Plate they were to have the Publick Faith B. What Publick Faith is there when there is no Publick What is it that can be call'd Publick in a Civil War without the King A. The Truth is the Security was nothing worth but serv'd well enough to gull those seditious Blockheads that were more fond of change than either of their peace or profit having by this means gotten Contributions from those that were the well-affected to their Cause they made use of it afterwards to force the like Contribution from others for in November following they made an Ordinance for Assessing also of those that had not Contributed then or had Contributed but not proportionably to their Estates And yet this was contrary to what the Parliâ—ment promised and declar'd in the Propositions themselves for they declar'd in the first Proposition That no mans Affection should be measured by the prâ—portion of his Offer so that he expressed his good will to the Service in any proportion whatsoever Besides this in the beginning of March following they made an Ordinance to Levy weekly a great Sum of money upon every County City Town Place and Person of any Estate almost in England which weekly Sum as may appear by the Ordinance it self printed and published in March 1642 by Order of both Houses comes to almost 33000 l. and consequently to above 1700000 l. for the year They had besides all this the Profits of the King's Lands and Woods and whatsoever was remaining unpaid of any Subsidy formerly granted Him and the Tunnage and Poundage usually received by the King besides the profit of the Sequestration of great persons whom they pleas'd to vote Delinquents and the profits of the Bishops Lands which they took to themselves a year or a little more after B. Seeing then the Parliament had such advantage of the King in Money Arms and multitude of Men and had in their hands the King's Fleet I cannot imagine what hope the King could have either of Victory unless He resign'd into their hands the Sovereignty or subsisting for I cannot well believe He had any advantage of them either in Councillors Conducts or in the Resolution of his Soldiers A. On the contrary I think He had also some disadvantage in that for though He had as good Officers at least as any then serv'd the Parliament yet I doubt He had not so useful Council as was necessary And for His Soldiers though they were Men as stout as theirs yet because their Valor was not sharpned so with Malice as theirs was of the other side they sought not so keenly as their Enemies did amongst whom there was a great many London Apprentices who for want of experience in the War would have been fearful enough of death and wounds approaching visibly in glittering Swords but for want of judgment scarce thought of such a death as comes invisibly in a Bullet and therefore were very hardly to be driven out of the Field B. But what fault do you find in the King's Councils Lords and other Persons of Quality and Experience A. Only that fault which was generally in the whole Nation which was That they thought the Government of England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy and that if the King should clearly subdue this Parliament that His power would be what He pleased and theirs as little as He pleased which they counted Tyranny This opinion though it did not lesâ—en their endeavors to gain the Victory for the King in a Battel when the Battel could not be avoided yet it weakned their endeavors to procure him an absolute
Papacy set up Presbyteries for the Government of thier several Churches and divers English Scholars that went beyond Sea during the Persecution of Queen Mary were much taken with this Government and at their return in the time of Queen Elizabeth and ever since have endeavor'd to the great trouble of the Church and Nation to set up that Government here wherein they might domineer and applaud their own Wit and Learning And these took upon them not only a Divine Right but also a Divine Inspiration and having been connived at and countenanced sometimes in their frequent Preaching they introduced many strange and many pernicious Doctrines out-doing the Reformation as they pretended both of Luther and Calvin receding from the former Divinity or Church-Philosophy for Religion is another thing as much as Luther and Calvin had receded from the Pope and distracted their Auditors into a great number of Sects as Brownists Anabaptists Independents Fifth-Monarchy Men Quakers and divers others all commonly called by the name of Fanaticks insomuch as there was no so dangerous an Enemy to the Presbyterians as this Brood of their own hatchingâ— These were Cromwel's best Cards whereof he had a very great number in the Army and some in the house whereof he himself was thought one though he were nothing certain but applying himself always to the Faction that was strongest was of a colour like it There was in the Army a great number if not the part that aimed only at Rapine and sharing the Lands and Goods of their Enemies and these also upon the opinion they had of Cromwel's Valor and Conduct thought they could not any way better arrive at their Ends than by adhering to him Lastly In the Parliament it self though not the major part yet a considerable number were Fanaticks enough to put in doubts and cause delay in the Resolutions of the House and sometimes also by advantages of a thin House to carry a Vote in favour of Gromwel as they did upon the 26th of July for whereas on the 4th of May precedent the Parliament had Voted That the Militia of London should be in the hands of a Committee of Citizens whereof the Lord Mayor or the time being should be one Shortly after the Independents chancing to be the major made an Ordinance whereby it was put into hands more favourable to the Army The best Cards the Parliament had were the City of London and the Person of the King The General Sir Thomas Fairfax was right Presbyterian but in the hands of the Army and the Army in the hands of Cromwel but which Party should prevail depended on playing of the Game Cromwel protested still Obedience and Fidelity to the Parliament but meaning nothing less bethought him and resolv'd on a way to excuse himself of all that he should do to the contrary upon the Army therefore he and his Son-in-law Commissary General Ireton as good at contriving as himself and at speaking and writing better contrive how to mutiny the Army against the Parliament To this end they spread a whisper through the Army that the Parliament now they had the King intended to disband them to cheat them of their Arrears and to send them into Ireland to be destroy'd by the Irish. The Army being herewith inrag'd were taught by Ireton to erect a Council among themselves of two Soldiers out of every Troop and every Company to consult for the good of the Army and to assist at the Council of War and to advise for the Peace and Safety of the Kingdom These were called Adjutators so that whatsoever Cromwel would have to be done he needed nothing to make them to do it but secretly to put it into the head of these Adjutators the effect of the first Consultation was to take the King from Holmeby and to bring him to the Army The General hereupon by Letters to the Parliament excuses himself and Cromwel and the Body of the Army as ignorant of the Fact and that the King came away willingly with those Soldiers that brought Him assuring them withall That the whole Army intended nothing but Peace nor opposed Presbytery nor affected Independency nor did hold any licentious freedom in Religion B. 'T is strange that Sir Thomas Fairfax could be so abused by Cromwel as to believe this which he himself here writes A. I cannot believe that Cornet Joyce could go out of the Army with 1000 Soldiers to fetch the King and neither the General nor the Lieutenant-General nor the Body of the Army take notice of it and that the King went willingly appears to be false by a Message sent on purpose from His Majesty to the Parliament B. Here is Perfidy upon Perfidy first the Perfidy of the Parliament against the King and then the Perfidy of the Army against the Parliament A. This was the first Trick Cromwel play'd whereby he thought himself to have gotten so great an advantage that he said openly That he had the Parliament in his Pocket as indeed he had and the City too For upon the news of it they were both the one and the other in very great disorder and the more because there came with it a Rumor that the Army was marching up to London The King in the mean time till his Residence was setled at Hampton Court was carried from place to place not without some ostentation but with much more Liberty and with more Respect shewn Him by far than when He was in the hands of the Parliaments Commissioners for His own Chaplains were allow'd Him and His Children and some Friends permitted to see Him besides that He was much Complimented by Cromwel who promised Him in a serious and seeming passionate manner to restore Him to His Right against the Parliament B. How was he sure he could do that A. He was not sure but he was resolv'd to march up to the City and Parliament to set up the King again and be the second Man unless in the attempt he found better hopes than yet he had to make himself the first Man by dispossessing the King B. What assistance against the Parliament and the City could Cromwel expect from the King A. By declaring directly for Him he might have had all the King's Party which were many more now since His misfortune than ever they were before for in the Parliament it self there were many that had discover'd the hypocrisie and private aims of their Fellows Many were converted to their Duty by their own natural Reason and their Compassion for the King's Sufferings had begot generally an Indignation against the Parliament so that if they had been by the protection of the present Army brought together and embodied Cromwel might have done what he pleas'd in the first place for the King and in the second for himself but it seems he meant first to try what he could do without the King and if that prov'd enough to rid his hands of him B. What did the Parliament and City do to oppose the