of the Debate tells us in his Continuation p. 383. that at first the chief promoters of stinted Liturgies were renowned for their constant and unwearied preaching every day in the week and someeimes twice and as probably this was one thing that advanced the credit and esteem of Liturgies in former times As I am perswaded one great cause why many do not esteem of the Liturgy so much now is that so many great Conformists and sticklers for it are Pluralists and Nonresidents and divers of them either preach not at all or very seldom and then too some of them preach against Preaching and saw down the branch of that Tree upon which they stand so high above their Brethren And on the other side those who scruple some things in the Liturgy and Ceremonies are such constant and zealous Preachers and that when Bonds and Imprisonments abide them for their so doing Quest But is it not indeed the Bond of the Covenant the Scottish Covenant wherewith our English Presbyterians have bound their Souls the great or onely Cause that makes so many Nonconformists Answ The Covenant mentioned was not the cause of the War the Battel at Edge-hill was fought before the Covenant came into England And whereas the Covenant was enter'd into in Forty Two and Forty Three there have been Nonconformists ever since Bishop Hooper and the Reformation in King Edward the Sixth's days There are some amongst the Covenanters that can conform to the Liturgy and submit to Episcopal Government And the greater part of Nonconformists Preachers at this day never took the Covenant Quest. What is the reason that divers Nonconformists read Logick in private Houses Is not this contrary to their Oath takes in the University Cont. p. 10. edit 4. Answ I have consulted as able as any in the Universities and by their Offices as likely to know as any about the matter and am told That the Oath there prohibits the setting up of another University in Opposition to the Universities and Reading in order to the taking Degrees elsewhere The words are at Oxford They shall not solennes Lectiones resumere which doth not make Dr. Busby perjured for initiating his Scholars some time in Logick before they go to the University Nor the several Professors at Gresham-Colledge who read as solemn Lectures surely as a Nonconformist doth in a private house Besides I hear but of one Nonconformist that at present doth teach Youth in that manner privately Quest What security can his Majesty and the Parliament have that Nonconformists will not under pretence of Conscience or Covenant seditiously endeavour an Alteration of Church-Government but that they will live quietly and peaceably in their places Answ They are ready to give the ancient Legal-Security the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and that is more than the Papists will do and as much as is required of the generality of the rest of the Nation notwithstanding their having taken the Engagement in the late times which yet many Presbyterians now Nonconformists and Ejected Ministers would never do though some of them lost their Places for their refusal Moreover many of them since have taken an Oath not to endeavour any Alteration of Government in Church and State and yet are not trusted to preach publickly much less to enjoy any Ecclesiastical Benefice And the rest that scruple some words or phrases in that Oath are yet ready besides the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy to swear that they will live quietly and peaceably in their places and not under colour or pretence of the Covenant or any pretence whatever endeavour by force or sediciously and tumultuously any Alteration of Government in Church and State Quest. Is the Act of Uniformity and the Oxford Act to be strictly and rigorously pressed upon and executed on all transgressors Answ If it be then what will become of many Conformists who use other Rites and Ceremonies than what are by Law required and of them who use other Forms of Prayer then are there prescribed and of all those Ministers that do not reade the Common-Prayer either publickly or privately morning and evening and so those Lecturers who do not monthly reade their Assent Consent c. And as for the Oxford Act Oath I have heard from a very learned person a Conformist that the Bishops themselves come within the compass of it as many as have not assented and consented c. as oft as they came within five miles of their Sees or any ther Corporation This I say not to bring the Bishops within but to bring others out of the reach of that Act or rather to encline if it nay be our Fathers and Brethren to use their interest with his Majesty and Parliament to remove those Laws which are a Partition-wall betwixt the Conformist Nonconformist Quest. But are not the Nonconformists sinners and transgressors of the Divine Law as oft as they withdraw from actual communion with the Church of England being as many of them confess a true Church Ans Many of our learned Doctors hold Rome to be a true Church as a Woman is a true Woman though an Harlot and a Man a true Man though overspread with Leprosie And yet being we cannot actually hold external communion with them without either subscribing to many false Tenets or joyning in a corrupt and Idolatrous Service we withdraw from them without sin Our withdrawing is not to be charged with sin or schism although too we were the minor part who withdrew and against the determination of a pretended General Councel And I believe it would be a hard matter to prove that many of those Meetings which are now commonly called Conventicles want any of the essential requisites to a true Church and yet do not think themselves Schismaticks for not holding actual communion with them because not countenanced by the Law And if a Legal Establishment be absolutely necessary to the being of a true Christian Church then there was no true Church at Rome till Constantine's dayes which I suppose you will judge very unreasonable to assert Quest Is it possible there should be Unity without Uniformity in Rites and Ceremonies c. Answ Yes There is Unity amongst the Protestant Reformed Churches beyond the Seas that follow Calvin and yet divers forms of Prayer and divers Rites The Author of the Debate will not take it well if a man should not say there is Unity at home amongst Conformists and yet the Cathedrals and Country-Parish-Churches differ in some Rites and in their mode of Worship and in the Parish-Churches there are diversity of Ceremonies and Usages in the Worship of God In some Churches they stand up at the Hymns in others not In some they reade the Hymns and Psalms Minister and People antiphonatim in others not In some in most they reade the Prayer for Christs Catholick Church if at all before Sermon but I know where 't is constantly read after And it is well known that none boast more of
if she seeks to hide or to save her self by flight from those that pursue her There are also some amongst the Nonconformists that think themselves bound to preach the Gospel and though they will not intrude into Churches which are at the Magistrates disposal yet they look upon it as their Duty to preach in private Houses And for that in London and other Cities the multitude of those that desire to hear are greater than in other places and their Meetings here may be least taken notice of therfore probably they repair to these places of concourse And what Fowler had not rather shoot at a Flock than at two or three single Birds And what Fisherman would not chuse father to cast his Net into the main Sea than into a small Brook The Quarrel of Fimbria against Scevola was That he would not receive the Weapon of Death far enough into his Body and the same is the Quarrel that some of our Brethren have against us That there being such sharp Laws made against us we are not willing to present our naked Brests to the point of them and let our Brethren gage us with their Weapons but chuse rather to fly from Country to City and from City to City to hide our selves Some there are who can say they hold no Meetings contrary to Law There are that hold some private Meetings but first they and their Auditors go to Church and hear Common-Prayer and Sermon there Most of those that do otherwise may be supposed to be in and about London where by reason of the burning of above fourscore Parish Churches the Churches that remain may not be capacious enough to receive or hold all the Inhabitants and besides may possibly be at inconvenient distances from their present Habitations If you say That the Old Nonconformists when they were silenc'd by the Bishops forbore to preach and justified their silence against the Brownists who accused them for it To this may be replied That the number of Ejected Ministers formerly were not comparable to what iâ— is now usually not one to one hundred to whaâ— it is in our days Besides the People that are dissatisfied with the Liturgy or Ceremonies now are ten if not a hundred to one to what they were formerly What shall Ministers do in this Case Our Saviour when he saw the multitudes had compassion on them because they were as Sheep Without a Shepherd Had you rather that Quakers and Romish Seducers should gather up Multitudes and that Taverns Alehouses and worse places should on the Lords day be filled with the number of those that absent themselves from the publick Assemblies rather than that they should be tolerated to hear a Sermon of Faith and Repentance and other Duties towards God and of Loyalty to the King of Love and Charity one towards another in a private house For my own part I confess in this Case I would much rather go learn what that means The Harvest truly is great and the Labourers are few pray ye therefore the Lord of the Harvest that he would send forth Labourers into his Harvest Again it is to be considered that Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham and others were silenced formerly but in some Diocesses and for some time afterwards they got diverse times liberty to preach Mr. Cotton had a License to preach under the Broad Seal of England procured by Bishop Williams then Lord Keeper notwithstanding his inconformity Mr. Cartwright notwithstanding he had writ so much and so sharply against Conformity was suffered to preach and enjoyed a place of Master of an Hospital at Warwick to his dying day Yea Mr. Brown the Father of the Brownists if we believe the Historian was suffered to keep a Living and that no mean one Achurch in Northamptonshire to his Death The Bishops in those dayes if they turned Men out of their Pulpits let them have a Livelihood either some way from their Livings or else permitted them or connived at least at their teaching of School My Schoolmaster at a Grammar-School was one that had left a Living rather man he would Conform And 't is storied of old Mr. John Fox by Doctor Heplin that though he refused to subscribe to any thing but the Greek Testament yet he enjoyed his Prebends place in Salisbury till his dying day 'T is worthy our notice that these mens Yoak was more easie than ours And that notwithstanding they are thought to be of different Principles from the present Nonconformists yet certain it is that they held it lawful to preach and pray and keep days of Humiliation in private Houses And I was told by one Mr. W. That he never had any other Ordination but Prayers and Imposition of handâ— by old Mr. Dod and some other Ministers his Friends in a private House Upon the consideration of the Premises my hearts desire is That the present Age may labour to imitate and surpass the Age past the Right Reverend the Bishops their Predecessors in their Forbearance and Moderation and the Nonconformists theirs in their Meekness and Peaceableness That the Bishops would endeavour to be Reconcilers and Repairers of out Breaches and Restorers of our Pulpits to preach in and that the Nonconformists would desire nothing but what may become Sons of Peace and such as earnestly long after Unity and had much rather as becomes Labourers be admitted to work in the Vineyard than to stand any longer idle in the Market-place Or as becomes Fishers of Men to be casting their Nets on the right side of the Ship than to sit any longer mending their Nets on the Shore That so the Ages to come when they shall read the History of this Generation when we all Conformists and Nonconformists are laid down to rest quietly together in our Graves may have no occasion to rise up and say That whereas the late War had made its thousands of Separatists Rigid Conformity had made its ten thousands And all this too during the peaceable Reign of our most Gracious Soveraign a Son of Peace CHARLES the Clement as he hath manifested himself by his Royal Letters and Declaration from Breda his Royal Declarations since and his present Princely Clemency And this too notwithstanding great Animosities Exasperations and Irritations of some on the one hand out of an inordinate Zeal and many Weaknesses Follies and Provocations of some on the other for lack of Knowledge Quest Are not the Non-conforming-Ministers who hold Private Meetings Schismaticks and Sectaries and Breakers of the Peace and Unity of the Church Vide Deb. p. 211. Answ 'T is a sign of exasperation saith my Lord Bacon upon the like difference to condemn the contrary part as a Sect yea and some indiscreet persons have been bold in open preaching to use dishonourable and derogative speech and censure of the Churches abroad and that so far at that some of our Men as I have heard ordained in forraign Parts have been pronounced to be no lawful Ministers So he And further Let 's
remember saith the same judicious Author that the ancient and true Bonds of Unity are One Faith one Baptism and not One Ceremony one Policy And endeavour to comprehend that saying Differentia Rituum commendat unitatem Doctrinae Christs Coat was indeed without Seam yet the Churches Garment was of divers Colours The Presbyterian and Congregational Nonconformists do profess to agree in the main Doctrine with the Church of England contained in her Articles of Religion so as fully to embrace and constantly to adhere unto what is purely Doctrinal in them Besides the Presbyterians do not separate from the Church so as to set up Church against Church Altar against Altar but being thrust out of the Church themselves and the number of men and women dissatisfied about either some passages or Ceremonies in the Lyturgy so that they dare not receive the Sacrament in the way required in the publick Assemblies being very great they take occasion to meet for Religious Exercises in private for a time onely till a door be opened for them in the Church by the removal of some supsosed or real Corruptions in the publick Worship And the reason why some whilst they continue in the City do not frequent the Publick Assemblies may be this Because they are here by connivance onely and dare not be seen openly to out-face a Law But when they are in the Countrey they joyn with the Congregation where they reside protempore to shew their Union with the Church and Conformity to the Laws Nor are they therefore to be judged Schismaticks because they still hold internal Communion with all Christians and so with the Church of England with whom in some things they conceive they cannot communicate externally And there is not saith a Learned Bishop so great Conformity to be expected in Ceremonies as in the Essentials of Sacraments The Separation of the N.C. from the Ch. of Engl. is not total nor perpetual and a man may remove from his Fathers House it being infected with a purpose to come thither when all is clear and well again And their desire and prayer is still That they that went forth of their Churches weeping yet bearing good Seed viz. the Doctrine of Faith Repentance and Obedience to God and his Vicegerent may come again rejoycing bringing their Sheaves that is their Congregations with them Quest But is not this partial and occasionaâ— withdrawing of some Non-conforming Ministers and people from the publick Legal Assemblies justly charged with Schism Answ Hear what a Romish Doctor saith which is cited by Bishop Bramhal in his Treatise of Schism pag. 7 8. When there is a mutual division of two parts or Members of the Mystical Body of the Church one from the other yet both retaining Communion with the Universal Church which for the most part springs from some doubtful Opinion or less necessary part of Divine Worship quam cunque partem amplexus fueris Schismaticus non audies quippe quod Universa Ecclesia neutiam damnarit what side soever you take you are not a Schismatick c. Quest. Sith that divers of the Non-conforming Ministers had no Ordination but by theiâ— Brethren the Presbyters Can they be esteemed lawful Ministers Is such Ordination valid without Re-Ordination by the Bishops Answ Ordination by Presbyters without Bishops was adjudged valid by our former Bishops witness the Case of three Scottish Bishops consecrated in England in King James his dayes Take the History of it from Archbishop Spotsâ—ood who relateth the matter and manner of it â—hus A Question saith he was moved by Doctor Andrews Bishop of Ely touching the Consecration â—f the Scottish Bishops who as he said must first be â—rdained Presbyters at having received no Ordinaâ—ion by a Bishop the Archbishop of Canterbury Doctor Bancroft who was by said That thereof â—here was no necessity seeing where Bishops could not â—e had the Ordination of or by Presbyters must be esteemed lawful This applauded to by the other Bishops Ely acquiesc'd and at the day and place appointed the three Bishops were consecrated A. Spots Hist Book 7. p. 514. Dr. Field in his Book of the Church holds the Ministers lawful Ministers in the Transmarine Churches though ordained without Bishops and Dr. Thorndike in his Treatise relating to the Primitive Government of Churches hath so much charity as not to unchurch the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who have no Bishops pag. 202. The pious learned and famous Mr. Gataker never had any Episcopal Ordination but was ordained by Dr. Stern Suffragan of Colchester The Religious and Renowned Archbishop Usher in his Reduction set forth by Dean Barnard was of the Judgement that the Chor-Episcopi or Rural Deans might lawfully Ordain And this his Judgement was attested by Doctor Holsworth yea and very probably too by Bishop Brownrig and others of the Sub-Committee for Ecclesiastical Affairs in the beginning of the Long Parliament The Attestation is as followeth We are of the Judgment that the form of Government here proposed is not in any point repugnant to the Scripture and that the Suffragans mentioned in the second Proposition may lawfully use both the power of Jurisdiction and Ordination according to the Word of God and the Practice of the Ancient Church Quest But what great matter is it what the Modern Bishops or Doctors do or say in this Affair Is it not sufficiently known that Aerius is reputed an Heretick for this Tenet viz. For denying a superiority of Bishops above Presbyters And was not Ordination by Presbyters condemned by a Councel of the Ancient Church Answ Aerius is counted an Heretick for other Opinions also by Epiphanius for which our Brethren that Conform will acquit him of Heresie And the Reverend Learned and Laborious Dr. Stillingfleet hath given several Reasons why those Ordinations might be lawfully made void by the Councel in case they had been performed by a Bishop as because in another Bishops Diocess because sine Titulo c. Quest If the Presbyterians can be freed from Schism yet what can be said to clear them from the sin of Sacriledge either as Principals or Accessories Did not the Assembly put out Annotations on the Bible in those times and for fear of displeasing their Masters never meddle with condemning of Sacriledge Answ I answer The Notes commonly called the Assemblies Notes came out before the Assembly was convened and was none of their Act And this is taken notice of by some very considerable Persons in their Preface to the Reader before the Morning-Exercises printed 1659. â—n these words We have not without some regret â—bserved that the Large English Annotations in â—hich but some few onely of the late Assembly togeâ—her with some others had an hand are generally scribed unto the whole Assembly and usually carry â—â—e Name of the Assemblies Annotations as if done â—y the joynt Advice of that Grave and Learned Conâ—ention Yet further as to the places mentionâ—d in the Debate they were commented upon by â—e persons here mentioned That
their Larger Catechise and in part by their own example in the Directory for publick Worship And as for their practise I say greater Loyalty than this hath no man than that a man lay down his life for his Soveraign and yet such were some of them as Mr. Love and Mr. Gibbons Some of them also had tryal of cruel Mocking for their Loyalty some of them of Bonds and Imprisonments of Sequestration and Banishments There are to be found among the present Nonconformists who sollicited Heaven and Earth with their Prayers and Tears for the saving of the Life of his late Majesty of Blessed Memory And whereas there were threescore and three unjust Judges that condemned his Majesty there were just as many Minister all except two accounted Presbyterians who appeared with the hazard of their Livings and Liberties if no also of their Lives with Scripture-Reasons and most earnest Entreaties to disswade men from and to declare against so horrid a wickedness Which very thing was the occasion that afterward some of them were driven from their Houses others imprisoned sequestred an◠threatned to be hanged Mr. H. Dr. W. Mr. A. That these persons were real cordial and conscientious too and that of th◠Oaths they had taken to his Majesty you may in charity judge if you take a taste of one of those Papers to the General and the General Council of War Presented and Printed during his Majesties Tryal In it they declare against all Proceedings against his Majesties Crown and Life upon grounds of Conscience and Prudence Which when they had laid down c. they conclude saying It was the Conscience of the many Oaths 〈◊〉 God its which you we and the generality of the Kingdom indispensibly stand bound before God Angels and Men which made them thus to declare themselves That we desire to wash our hands as from the Blood of all men so especially of our Dread Soveraign and to approve our selves innocent of all that blood and misery the Deposing and taking away his Majesties Life will in our apprehension involve us our Posterity and all men professing Godliness in the three Kingdoms We do therefere from our Soul beseech and importune you and every one of you as Men Gentlemen and Christian Souldiers by all that can be dear to good men as you desire to render a good account of your actions at the great day to the righteous Judge of Heaven and Earth That you will forbear doing ought in the Premises which may wound the Conscience or pierce the Hearts of any of Gods People who are all alike with you or any of you precious to him as the Apple of his Eye which may rend and tear the Bowels of this your and our native Countreys and occasion the common Enemy to blaspheme the Majesty Truth and Cause of our God And further to contribute the utmost skill study and endeavours of you and every of you in your proper places and the great Counsellor and mighty GOD direct you all to remove ours and the Kingdoms fears to remedy the present abounding Distempers and present and universal Destruction That we and the Generations to come may rise up and call you Blessed and so eminent a preservation of the Kingdom in such an extremity may be had in everlasting Remembrance And as for their Loyalty to our most Gracious Soveraign that now is and long and long may God continue Him and bless Him with all the Blessings of Heaven and Earth both in his Person and Government the Presbyterians have given good Proof thereof Mr. Cawten prayed for his Majesty with his Royal Titles in publick and for his so doing was accused and arraigned of High-Treason Others of them in private Houses prayed for him would not own the Government that then usurped over us nor keep their Days of Thanksgiving for the Victory at Dunbar or Worcester nor publish their Declarations against his Majesty or Sir George Booth and those that endeavoured his Restauration yea there are to be found amongst the present Nonconforming-Ministers who had like to have been hang'd for engaging with Sir George Booth and hardly escaped with their Lives then who have since lost their Livings Yea so zealous were the Presbyterian Ministers for his Majesties Restauration that the chief Quarrel in reason of the high Hierarchists against them should have been no other than that of the men of Israel against the men of Judah Because they were the first in bringing the King back Quest Can any man believe that the High Conformists were not the great Doers and Sufferers both for his Majesty and that meerly out of Principles of Conscience Answ I acknowledge there were divers amongst the Bishops and the Conforming-Clergy that did both do and suffer really out of principles of Conscience yet that their own Interest had some considerable influence into the Loyalty of many of them may be suspected for that they seem to express more and greater Zeal against the Presbyterians who yet endeavoured to save the King's Life than against the Regicides themselves that put him to death and more frequently and more fiercely every where charge arraign and condemn the Covenant than the Engagement as if they judged it was a more unpardonable crime to endeavour to extirpate Prelacy than actually to take away King and House of Lords more heinous to divest a Prelate of his Pontificalibus than to cut off the Head of the Lords Anointed This may possibly occasion many sober persons to query If the Tables had been turn'd and that his Majesty bad been for the extirpation of Prelacy and the removal of Liturgy and Ceremonies and the Parliament for the continuance and upholding of them whether many that were very hot would not have been lukewarm if not key-cold in his Majesties cause I conclude the Answer to this Question when I have laid down this great Truth That the Mitre is more beholden to the Crown than the Crown to the Miter and that it wit his Majesty that restored the Bishops and not the Bishops which restored his Majesty Quest Is not this then a true Maxim in Policy That Monarchy is greatly supported by Prelacy and that the greatest Hectors for Uniformity serve his Majesties Interest and Government most and best Ans The Lord Falkland either then or a while after Secretary of State said in Parliament of some stirring and leading Prelates before the War as followeth A little search will find them to have been the destruction of Unity under pretence of Uniformity to have brought in Superstition and Scandal under titles of Reverence and Decency c In which they have abused his Majestie as well as his People Heyl Cyp. Ang. p. 408. Quest. But if it be granted that the Presbyterians have any Loyalty to his Majesty have they also any love to the peace of the Church and to Dissenters from their Government Do they not implacably hate the Episcopal Clergy and stand irreconciliable to all Uniformity and Liturgy Answ
the first ten or eleven years of Q Elizabeth and that some of our own Church are ready to run away and separate from us pretending we comply too much with Rome in some of our Forms or Ceremonies If if should please his most excellent Majesty and the Parliament to cause the Liturgy to be revised and some greater Alterations to be made for the better than was of late it should not offend but rather much rejoyce the Presbyterians I have read that the Archbishop of Armagh declared his Judgment when time was against the introducing of the English Ceremonies into the Church of Ireland And I have been told that the Right Reverend the Bishop of Hereford that now is upon another occasion expressed his Opinion to be That the further of we keep from the Church of Rome the better I might add this also which I had from a credible person presently after it was spoken That the late Archbishop of Canterbury was very willing to have had though a Liturgy yet one that might not be so much displeasing or dissatisfactory as this was to many I confess there are some well-meaning people who forbear to use the names of Altar Priest Christmass c. or to call Festival dayes wherein the Church of England commemorates the Saints and blesseth God for their example by the names of those Saints dayes yet they are not altogether without all excuse in this their Scrupulosity if we consider what a bad use they of the Church of Rome make of out keeping and continuing old words Let us keep our forefathers words say the Annotations on the Rheâ—ist Testament on 1 Tim. chap. 6. and wâ— shall easily keep our old and true Faith we had of the first Christians Let them say Amendment Abstinence the Lords Supper the Communion Table Elders Ministers Superintendents Congregation so be it Let tee keep the old terms Penance Fasting Priest Charity Bishop Mass Mattins Even song the blessed Sacrament Altar Oblation Holt Sacrifice Alleluja Amen Lent Palmsunday Christmss c. and the very words will bring us to the faith of our first Apostles and condemn these new Apostates their new faith and phrases If we consider further what is reported of Bishop Bonner namely that when he saw the Reformation and how many of their Ceremonies were retained being asked what he thought of it If they like said he to tast of our Broth so well they will eat of our Beef shortly I dare say the Church since the Reformation never intended any adoration of the Bread by our kneeling in the act of receiving and yet Bishop Hall saith thus I had a dangerous conflict with a Sorbonist who took occasion by our kneeling at the receipt of the Eucharist to perswade all the company of our acknowledgment of a transubstantiation It must be confest further that amongst well-meaning people some there are though scarce any among the Ministry who scruple the naming the Apostles and other Saints whether real or imaginary by the name of Saints and their plea may be they cannot see any sufficient reason setting aside the Authority of our Governors and the Custom of the Times and Places we live in why we should say St. Matthew and St. Andrew Debate pag. 64 65. rather than St. Moses and St. Aaron and why they should call David a Bishop in Wales St. David rather than K. David King in Jerusalem the one being truly a Saint and the Lords Anointed and the other canonized by the Pope Yet doubtless there are none so scrupulous amongst us but had as leave say St. Michael as St. George As for the Nonconformists-Ministers it was the practice of Dr. Thomas Goodwin as I am informed and was all along the late timeâ— to say such a Chapter or such a Verse of St. Matthew St. Mark St. Paul c. That 't is not alway necessary to mention the Apostles with the title of Saint for fear of sin in the Judgement of our Church may hence be concluded that in all the Collects for the dayes set apart to commemorate the Holy Apostles in there ate but two wherein they ate stiled Saints Quest. Do the Nonconformists hold it utterly unlawful to keep dayes in remembrance of what the holy Apostles Deb. p. 73. 1. Ed. and other Saints have done or suffered and had they much rather keep a day of Thanksgiving for O. C. his defeating his Majesty at Worcester than for Michael the Archangel his victory over the Devil and his Angels Answ Some think it impossible for a man without special warrant from God to sanctifie so that the service performed unto God upon that day should be more acceptable than on any other Some think the abuses of those Festival dayes are so great common and customary that if his Majesty and the Parliament saw good it would be better and more easie to abolish the Observation of them than to take away the Abuses which they think cleaves to them like the Leprosie in the wall of the house That these Feasts were of Apostolical institution or observed by the Apostles any except Easter is not so much as pretended unto that I read of Hospinian hath told us the Original of them to be of a much later date And as for the observation of Easter it self Mr. Hales is of opinion that it was an Error to hold it necessary to observe such a Feast and the Controversie about the Time which set all the World in a Combustion and were it not that both sides pretended Conscience in the case Hales of Schism p. 5. he thinks them all guilty of Schism he saith was a matter most unnecessary and vaine The old Nonconforming Ministers did use to take the opportunity of those dayes to preach in to the people Some Reformed Churches have no Saints dayes but only keep some few dayes Holy in remembrance of our Saviour or relating to the blessed Trinity So as I take it doth the Church of Scotland even at this day For my own part I think the Church of England is well justified by Mr. Perkins from Superstition in her observance of the Festival dayes she observes I can assure you there are that can observe a day to give thanks for the victory of Michael over the Devil which neither did nor could nor would keep a day to give thanks for the victory of O. C. over the King at Worcester or of Lambert over Sir George Booth in Cheshire As for occasional dayes of Fasting and Humiliation they have not been so much scrupled in the World by sober men nor may be so liable to exception or abuse as the stated Fasts and Feasts may and I think usually they are mote strictly observed As for the Nonconformists private dayes which the Author of the Debate speaks of if they keep them no better those that do keep them than many if not most do the ordinary stated Fasts and Feasts I think they may do every whit as well to lay them aside Quest.
To the Law or to the Gospel to his own Obedience or Good Works or to the Obedience of Christ Answ The ordinary method of Cure is first to search the Wound to the bottom and then to apply healing Remedies first to pour in Wine and then Oyl Our Physitians use first to purge or vomit their Patients and then to give Cordials So spiritual Physitians till the Patient be truly and rightly sensible of his sins they send him to the Law for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin the horrid nature and demerit of it but then for Comfort they send him to the Gospel to this soveraign Balsom yea they pour on them the Oyl of Gladness upon whom they perceive has been the Spirit of Heaviness They say not Physitian heal thy self but rather send them to the Great Physitian by whose stripes we and they are healed We dare not trust in our own Righteousness but in the Lord our Righteousness Quest Do not Nonconformists as they desire liberty from the Impositions of Men in the Worship of God so preach up liberty from the Commandments of God in the Course of their Lives Or at least do they not lift up their Voice like a Trumpet when they publish the Gospel but onely speak in a small and still Voice when they treat of Obedience to the moral Law Answ 'T is an unjust Calumny cast on the Protestants by the Papists That they are Solifidians and against good Works And 't is an uncharitable censure of the Nonconformists by the Author of the Debate that they do not preach obedience to the Moral Law as well as Faith in Christ and the Duties of the second Table of the Law as well as of the first Whoever reads the Assemblies Confession of Faith their Larger and Shorter Catechism M. Dod on the Commandments Mr. Anthâ—â— Burgess his Vindiciae Legis may see clâ—â—â— that the Nonconformists are not Libâ—â—â—â—es â—â—â—â—gh they desire some Liberty and that thou 〈◊〉 pray to be delivered and freed from humane ceremonial Laws as God has freed them from the Ceremonial Law of his own making yet they are not Antinomians they commend and in Gods name require Obedience as well as Faith Doing as well as Believing they commend Moral Honesty but prefer Piety We deny him to be a truly godly man that is not a good honest man we deny him to be righteous before God that endeavours not to approve himself righteous in his dealings with men We would not by any means break the two Tables by dashing them one against the other and yet we prefer the Gospel before the Law Christ to Moses the second Covenant to the first that of Grace to that of Works Quest Is not Obedience then to the Moral Law the Condition of our Justification See Debate p. 13. Answ No 'T is not the Condition and Qualification of the Covenant so properly D. M. as 't is of those Persons that enter into the Covenant Faith justifieth the Person before God and Obedience justifieth the Faith before men Obedience saith a Reverend Author must be in the same Subject with Faith but it hath not a Voice in the same Court We do not cry down mans Obedience when we cry up the Obedience of Christ as the matter of our Justification and the Imputation of it as the form of our Justification We dare not appear before God in our own filthy Garments and menstruous Cloaths We expect a Blessing from our Heavenly Father when we are arrayed with the Robes of our Elder Brother Jesus Christ his Righteousness which sends up a sweet smell in Gods Nostrils Quest Is Faith or believing in Christ a coming to Christ or a relying on Christ for the pardon of our sin See Debate p. 43. Answ Yes John 7.37 38. there coming to Christ and believing are all one And to what end Sinners are called to come to Christ we my learn from our blessed Saviour Mat. 11.28 namely That they may find rest I believe in God saith Bishop Nicholson in his excellent Exposition of the Church-Catechism as if I said I put my whole trust hope and confidence in him I â—ely upon him And so may Faith in Christ I â—hink be very well described to be a relying on Christ for the pardon of our sins and all good â—hings If my memory fail not I have often â—eard that Renowned Professor Dr. Samuel Ward deliver it for good Doctrine in the Chair That Faith was Recumbentia in Christum Mediaâ—re c. a Recumbency on Christ for the pardon of â—ins .. One Mr. Down that wrote too against Separation defineth Faith to be a rest of the Will upâ—n Christ and his merits for Justification and consequently Salvation And the same Author obâ—erves that the Hebrew words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all words equipollent in the old Testament and what is meant by them in the Old Testament is expressed in the New by Believing To instance in one Trust in the Lord with thy whole heart saith the Old Testament Prov. 3.5 If thou believest with thy whole heart or with all thy heart saith the New Act. 8.37 We may define Faith thus It it a gracious habit infused into the Heart by the Spirit of God whereby the Soul rests or rolls it self upon Christ for all things appertaining to Life and Godliness for Gods Glory and its own Salvation Quest. Who are the greatest Enemies to the Church of England and to Religion it self those who bring in new and strange Doctrines or those that dissent onely from her as to the Ceremonies Answ Those that differ in Substantials 〈◊〉 Religion are to be thought more to differ thâ—â— those that differ onely in Circumstantials and those ought to be reputed the greatest Nonconformists who do not conform to the Doctrineâ— the Church of England set forth in her Articles Homilies and Liturgy Quest. Who are they Answ Even many that have been conformable enough as to Ceremonies their Names anâ— Tenets you may find in a Book entitled Laudeâ—sium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in another called Laâ—densium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who they were thâ— maintained these Doctrines and their Doctrinâ—â— in some measure also you may find in Mr. Rushworth's Collections and others who have written the History of the Times immediately preceding the late Wars I shall refer you to one and that is Dr. Fuller in his Church-History who relates that it was complained of to the Sub-committees for Religion in Parliament of which Sub-committee the Bishop of Lincoln the Bishop of Armagh the Bishop of Durham the Bishop of Exeter Dr. Sam. Ward Dr. Hacket Dr. Holdsworth and others were Members that all the Tenets of the Councel of Trent abating only such points of State-Policy against the King's Supremacy as were made Treason by the Statute Good works Co-causes with Faith in Justification private Coufession by particular ennumeration of sins needful necessitate medii to Salvation that the Oblation
or as others the Consumption of the Elements in the Lords Supper holdeth the nature of a true Sacrifice Prayers for the Dead lawfulness of Monastical Vows the gross substance of Arminianism and some dangerous points of Socinianism had been preached or printed by some amongst us Quest If it should be proved true that the high Conformists should warp somwhat from the Doctrine of the Church of England yet have they not all and alwayes been constant and firm to the Government to King and Parliament and great admirers of what their Superiors do and say Answ Dr. Heylyn tells us that he cannot reckon the death of King Edward the sixth for an infelicity of the Church of England for being as he saith ill principled in himself and easily enclin'd to imbrace such counsels as were offered to him it is not to be thought but that the rest of the Bishopricks before sufficiently impoverished must have followed Durham and the poor Church left as destitute of Lands and Ornaments at when she came into the world in her natural nakedness The above-named Dr. Heylyn in his History of the Reformation chargeth the Grandees at Court and in the Parliament of those times with such vices and crimes as our Adversaries may make use of to blemish our Reformation All which with some other considerations may give occasion to some to think that what the Devil said falsly and maliciously against Job may a little altered be too truly and without breach of charity said of some high blades Do they fear and honour the King and Parliament for nought Have they not made a hedge about them and about their house and about all that they have on every side and their Substance is encreased in the Laud But let but King and Parliament put forth their hand now and touch all they have and they would if not for fear of punishment curse them to their face Quest Is there any other absolute promise besides that of sending Christ into the World Answ Yes many As that Gen. 9.9 not to drown the World any more That of calling of the Gentiles Gen. 49.10 The promise of the Conversion of the Jews as is generally thought Rom. 11. The promise of giving Christ the Heathen for his inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for his possession Psal 2. And that Isa 53. He shall see his Seed he shall prolong his days and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands That Christ shall have a Seed to serve him that Christ shall certainly and infallibly save some and the Lord knows who are his That he hath not shed his Blood in vain like water spilt on the ground that this glorious Head of the Church shall certainly have a Body in some measure answerable and suitable to the Head c. The promise of First Grace is thought to be absolute I will take away your heart of Stone and give you a heart of Flesh 'T is confess'd we are bid to convert and turn and to come to Christ and to make our selves new hearts and yet 't is as true that we cannot do any of these things of our selves without Divine Assistance and special Grace But this for out Comfort That which is the matter of Duty in one place of Scripture is the matter of a Promise in another And again That Gospel-Commands are not onely significations of out Duty but Conveyances of strength to do our Duty Quest Is not Mr. W. B. absurd in comparing Gods people to Plate Answ I answer There is Scripture-ground enough to justifie the calling of Gods people his Plate for in Scripture they are called Gods Jewels or his peculiar Treasure Psal 3.17 And obdurate wicked men are compared to Reprobate Silver Jer. 6.30 Quest. May we not say That we come to the Promises by Christ Answ In him are all the Promises Yea and in him Amen 2 Cor. 1.20 As a woman hath a right to her Joynture by first taking the man to her wedded Husband so Christians have a right to the Promises and all good things by taking Christ first for their Lord and Husband Quest. Is fear the chief and principal motive of a Christian to Duty and Obedience I mean the fear of punishment Answ No The chief and best Principle is Love I look on them as of a lower form in Religion who onely serve God for fear of Hell Although this fear is useful yet 't is not the principal motive to obidience in Gods Children And this was the Divinity of former time I do not hold it unlawful to serve God for fear of punishment nor hopes of Reward yet this I say That fear alone speaks a man a Servant and love speaks a min a Son And those are the best Servants to Vertue who serve virtutis amore for the love of Vertue A man may hate the good he doth and love the evil which he doth not do If then a man do that which is commanded meerly or chiefly for fear of Hell is be necessarily one of Gods best Servants I think not because he may at the same time hate the good he doth and love the evil he abstains from As for working with an eye to the Reward intuitu mercedis 't is justifiable and commendable 't is that which Moses did Heb. 11.26 and which our blessed Saviour did and it sufficeth the Servant to be as his Master Christians to be Followers and Imitators of Christ their Lord and Master Quest. Are good Works necessary to our Justification Debate p. 13. Answ The Church of England in her 11th Article teaches her Children thus We are righteous before God onely for the merit of the Lord our Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith and not for our own Works or Deservings Wherefore that we are justified by Faith onely is most wholsom Doctrine and very full of Comfort c. And in her Book of Homilies Tom. 1. pag. 17. Edit 1623. thus Justification is not the Office of man but God or man cannot make himself righteous by his own Works neither in part nor in whole for that were the greatest arrogance and presumption of Man that Antichrist could set up against God Quest Hath the Doctrine of the Imputation of Christs Righteousness for our Justification been the Doctrine of our Church and the prime Doctors of it Answ The Papists indeed call it with a jeer Putative Righteousness And 't is storied of a Popish Bishop lighting accidentally on that place Rom. 4.6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth Righteousness without Works c. threw away the Book in great displeasure and said O Paule an tu quoque Lutheranùs factus es O Paul art thou also become a Lutheran 'T is observed by 〈◊〉 Conforming Minister that the Apostle Paul mentions this grace of Imputed Righteousness ten times in the 4th chapter to the Romans and Bishop Andrews in his most excellent Sermon on that Scripture Jehova Justitia nostra His naâ—â—
Instruments of Cruelty are in their Habitations Cursed be their Anger for it was fierce and their Wrath for it wat cruel And we each one say O my Soul come not thou into their Secrets unto their Assemblies mine Honour be not thou united But let God divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel Mr. Bridge was not in Town then which may be supposed the Reason we find not his Name amongst the Subscribers As for W. B. whether his Writings be so faulty as they are charged to be in the Debates I cannot tell having not read them but a Conformable Doctor told me that he had searched them and that the Author of the Debate had dealt disingeniously in his quotations of him c. Quest. May not every whit as much be said for the Papists why they should be tolerated as to the publick exercise of their Religion as for Nonconformists Do not they profess all Loyalty to his Majesty and declare against all Rebellion Answ The Papists depend upon a forraign Power in Ecclesiastical Affairs superiour as they think to his Majesty And it was subscribed by twelve Bishops in Ireland as follows Their Religion is superstitious and idolatrous their Faith and Doctrine erronious and heretical their Church in respect of both Apostatical Whereas the Nonconformists whether Presbyters or Congregationists agree with the Church of England in the Doctrine of Faith and Sacraments differ not in any substantial part of Religion from her What the Papists practice hath been how dangerous to the Civil Peace the History of England in Q. Elizabeth's days can tell us That 't is impossible for any Nation to be free from Troubles or Treason so long as they suffer Jesuites amongst them saith Watson in his Quodlibets And that he and his Order were not so good and loyal as they pretended may be guessed from hence that he himself was afrerwards executed for Treason Moreover Papists cannot when they have power long live without persecuting Protestants saith a Reverend Doctor Hence may appear that we see K. H. III. of France stabb'd and lamn'd because he would not persecute them enough So the Answer to the Papists Apology p. 21. As for Quakers they may seem to be the very Spawn of the Romish Emissaries proselyted by them but made more dangerous to Magistrates and all Civil Society by this one Principle that they hold viz. That they ought to be guided and to act not by the Scripture nor according to the command of the Civil Magistrate or Spiritual Guides and Pastors but by and sudden Flash or Light within them I am not satisfied to have a hand in the Execution of the Sanguinary Laws against Papists yet should be loth to try how Sanguine or good natur'd they would be if they had power in their hands to execute the Writ De Haeretico comburendo If we may say of them as they use to say of Fire and Water They are good Servants I am sure 't is as true That they are but bad Masters Quest How can we agree to live quietly with these Nonconformists Are they not so much divided from us in their Judgement that they divide from us in their Language also and in fine would bring all things into a Babel of Confusion Cont. p. 1. Answ The greater number of them I presume speak as others do and conform to that ordinary phrase Well I thank God If any when enquired of about their Health say I am well through Mercy they do but as the French Protestants do they are surely few in comparison that say so commonly and I do not remember one Minister that useth to say so they that do possibly have recovered from some sickness or escaped some danger which occasions them to use this expression But if you will be critical some think it a sign of a greater humility to say I am well through mercy than the other I am well I thank God However it is not so liable to exception as to say I am well y' faith as I have heard that some Conformists do although Bishop Saunderson doth not approve of that language in common discourse We do not hold it unlawful to use the name of God in our Salutations as Boaz did and can say and pray God save the King as heartily as your selves I know â—o Nonconforming-Ministers that hold it unlawful to teach Children their Catechism Prayers lest they should take God's Name in vain And yet I must have leave to say that a reverend Bishop doth reckon that we sin against the third Commandment by an irreverend and customary mention of God's great and glorious Name upon trivial occasions and a learned Doctor in his Exposition of the third Commandment makes it a duty not to use the Name of God but with great reverence See Dr. Pat. Catech. Quest Are Nonconformists most guilty of breaking the third Commandment in the main sense See Cont p. 4. Answ Mr. Case Mr. Edwards and the London Ministers cited by the Author of the Debate in his Continuation all prove they were very tender of the breach of an Oath desirous to keep far from it themselves and to save others with fear plucking them out of the fire and the present ejected and dejected estate of the Nonconformists may testifie that they are such as fear an Oath The Presbyterians are bold to say in one of their Papers to his Majesty That the Obligation of the Covenant upon the Consciences of the Nation was not the weakest Instrument of his Return As to your citations out of Mr. John Goodwyn and Mr. John Lilborne I say there lyeth an Exception against the Witnesses in the Case as I suppose you might say if their Testimonies were produced against the Hierarchy Liturgy and Ceremonies Quest What may be the cause the Author of the Debate is so fierce against the Protestation taken by the Parliament before the War and which his late Majesty excepted not against when taken although he was then at Whitehall Answ The true Reason may be this because the House of Commons put out an Interpretation that by the Doctrine of the Church of England which they promised to maintain they meant onely the Doctrine in opposition to Popery and Popish Innovations and did not thereby oblige themselves or others to the maintenance of the Discipline and Government If that had been in 't is to be thought it would have gone down as easily with men of his way as the Et-caetera Oath did concerning which the Historian gives us this account That some Bishops pressed it on Ministers before the day required to take it by the Canon and enjoyned them to take it kneeling a Ceremony not exacted or observed in taking the Oath of Alleagiance and Supremacy Full. Hist 6.11 p. 17. Quest What is to be thought of the Continuation of the Friendly Debate Answ It seems to be an unfriendly Continuation of Debate and Strife contrary to the Act of Indempnity and to be a continued breach of
that Law in the very design of it Else why contrary to the Act of Oblivion doth he rake up the memory of what was written and preached before and in the Wars and that sometimes by persons very little considerable for their parts learning or place amongst their own party and why doth he charge those things upon the Nonconformists of this Generation Quest Were not Nonconformists even from the beginning of Nonconformity generally very peevish impudent censorious and disobedient to Authority Answ The Old Puritans if we believe the Historian and he was a Conformist and a Dignitary were humble meek patient hospitable charitable as in his Censures of so in his Alms to others Dr. Full. H. 6.11.220 And if we beâ—ieve the Author of the Debate the Ancient Nonconformists were many of them men of â—ober and peaceful principles and did submit to Authority and were enemies to Separation such were Mr. Ball Mr. Geere and all those who were the Authors of that grave and modest Confutation of the Error and Sect of the Brownists or Separatists published by Mr. Rathband Quest. Have not some of the High Sons of the Church changed their Principles in relation to King and Parliament Answ Time was when they pleaded strongly Where the Word of a King is there is power But lately when his Majesty published a Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs c. then their note was changed That was no Law they said and the King could not do it without the Parliament And yet then the House of Commons gave his Majesty thanks for doing it Time was when a Long Parliament was accounted by them a grievous Disease and now it is the great Remedy Time was when they cryed down all Parliaments now they cry up this Whence comes this change I answer The case is alter'd quoth Ployden Quest Is this good Logick or solid reasoning Mr. Lewes Hughes Mr. Vicars Mr. Bridges did write thus and thus in the War-time Ergo or therefore the Nonconformists at present are all thus and thus Answ I deny the Consequence as the Author of the Debate would and well might If a man should argue thus Mr. VVhite set out a Book of a hundred which he called Scandalous Ministers that were ejected by the Parliament If we grant some of those hundred were scandalous therefore all that were ejected in those dayes were scandalous Or thus They say one Wallis of Gloucester published a Book of scandalous words and deeds of perhaps twenty or thirty now Conformable-Ministers therefore if some of them were guilty all that conform are faulty in like manner Quest Is it an argument or evidence of eminent Godliness and of extraordinary Charity to charge thousands with Errors or miscarriages of half a dozen or half a score Answ No. God who is Love it self would have spared Sodom for the sake of ten righteous persons And surely our enemies when they are serious and sober and their passions not predominant both of old and of late might find if they would look about more than ten righteous persons godly meek modest charitable and peaceable among the Nonconformists In the beginning of the Reformation there were a sort of Anabaptists rose up in Germany and did horrid things at Munster and elsewhere was the fault therefore in the Reformation Although the Papists use to charge it upon the Protestant Religion that it is the Spring and Fountain of Sedition and Rebellion where it is received Yet both We and our Brethren Conformists are able to wipe off that foul aspersion and so are the Nonconformists of these dayes the dirt that is thrown in their faces by the aforesaid Author If any have called Conformists Egyptians Babylonians Canaanites Antichristians or the like let it not be charged on those that disapprove and condemn their sayings If any speak in the Clouds and you fancy they challenge to themselves a power by Prayer to rain down Blood upon us let it not be charged upon them that live quietly and peaceably in the Land teach men so to do by their life and doctrine if they preach at all If there be any man that designs by preaching or otherwise to throw the Nation into War and Blood again I wish he may prophesie in Sackcloth And when he pretends to pour out Vials of Wrath his threatnings may be like water spilt upon the ground Quest Do Nonconformists look shortly to shut Heaven and turn Waters into Bloud C. Answ Mr. Parker of New-England printed a Book on Daniel's Visions and Prophesies Anno 1646. and according to him there will be no shutting of Heaven no turning of Waters into Blood at least no putting off of the VVitnesses Sackcloth which saith our Author Contin of Fr. Deb. p. 142. Mr. W. B. now expects till the year 1856. when we shall be all Conformists and Nonconformists at peace in our Graves If Mr. W. B. discourse of such Prophecies in his Sermons I assure you he and one more are all that I can hear of that meddle to preach on such subjects I am told Those that preach in private preach Faith and Repentance and meddle not with matters relating to the Government either of Church or State And I was lately asking a prime Nonconformist and an able Preacher what he said to that Objection in the Debate that the Nonconformists did not preach up Obedience to Magistrates He very zealously and confidently replied They did it and that more than the Conformists themselves Quest. Do not the Conformists some of them medule sometimes with the interpreting and applying phrases and notions they meet with in the Revelations Answ Bishop Williams Bishop of Ossory wrote a Book to prove the Long Parliament Antichrist and he or another made Oliver Cromwel Antichrist and Dr. Fuller in his Church-History writes of one that observed that the Covenant had in it the Number of the Beast One hundred sixty six consisting as he said of just so many words Quest Were not the old Nonconformistâ— much better then those in our days C. Answ Their Nonconformity did not cosâ— them so much as it doth us and in the times they lived they were likely accused as we are now When we are as they now really as well as Legally dead it may be we may have a good word also In Queen Elizabeth's days the Nonconformists were not more pliant or complying than they are now There were not the Tythe of the Ministers then ejected to what since There were more bitter Books put out then against the Hierarchy than are now If I mis-remember not the Nonconformists gave the first Charge then but now-a-days we are alarum'd and assaulted once and again and no man appeared publickly to defend our Principles or Practices We are loaded with Reproaches and many grievous and heavy things laid to our charge and no man for a long time in our name in print so much as pleaded Not Guilty and offered to Traverse the Indictment or put himself upon the Tryal of his Country Say
not therefore that the Nonconformists of former times were better more peaceable more modest then these If any man though in the heat of his passion and in the heat of the War have called the Conformists Gentiles Uncircumcised Philistines Egyptians Babylonians the Brood of the Serpent and have denied pardon of sin and Heaven to them because of their Conformity I think he ought to repent of such hard sayings and uncharitable Censures of his Brethren and Fellow-servants and to bring forth Fruits meet for Repentance for the time to come viz. To lay a Law of Love and Kindness upon his Tongue and Pen as long as he lives 'T is to be hoped the number of those that had such unbridled Tongues and Pens was very small the instances you bring of such intemperate heats and irregular zeal are taken out of the Furnace of the late War and that too after the fire had been raked up in Ashes by many years peace and fully quenched by the Act of Oblivion and Indempnity If we had a mind to recriminate and retaliate we could repeat much foul Language and bitter reviling speeches by some of your way against us also But these are not the methods of Peace I desire therefore that all such matters may be forgiven and forgotten on both sides and remembred onely or chiefly by the Anthors and Abettors of them that they may if they have not already repent of them more than in Dust and Ashes Quest Did not the Scots in Ireland write to their Brethren in Scotland to send over Ministers to them in such language as if they thought there had been but little of Religion amongst them in that Countrey during the Reign of the Bishops C. Answ There might be many dark Corners in Ireland for want of Oyl to maintain Lamps preaching Ministers I mean such as should be like John Baptist burning and shining Lights amongst them The Scotish Presbyterians if they be like their Brethren in England had a Reverend esteem of Archbishop Usher and the Bishops of Ireland for the Irish Articles of Religion and their zeal against the toleration of Popery there Who or what was the cause of the scarcity of able Ministers except want of Maintenance and fear of the Irish Papists I know not but confident I am the Bishops of Armagh and Ardagh were not if any other Bishops Quest Have not the Nonconformists a high conceit of themselves and those of their own way and a low esteem of all others for Religion and Godliness Doth not Mr. Baynes say There is more of God and his Religion in some one Congregation of a silenced Minister than in all the Bishops Families in England And doth not Dr. Ames approve that of Mr. Baynes Answ I have heard that Dr. Ames had so much charity for Corvinus that he said He did not doubt but to meet him in Heaven Why then Mr. Baynes passeth and Dr. Ames approveth such a smart Censure on the Bishops Families I cannot tell Yet 't is not to be imagined that Mr. P. Baynes meant that the Bishops had no Religion in their Families If so I cannot commend his Charity I think this is a sure and clear truth That neither Bishops not silenced Ministers can be said to have all Religion or no Religion amongst them and their Followers I hold a Monopoly in Religion as unlawful as some have thought those in the State illegal Never the-less it must be confessed That the Articles of Visitation or the Injunctions of the Great Apostle St. Paul are Canonical A Bishop must rule his own House well for if a man know not how to rule his own House how shall he take care of the Church of God 1 Tim. 3.4 5. He that writes the Life of Archbishop Usher tells us That he had four times a day Prayer in his House that there was an hour spent in Catechising once a Week viz. every Fryday that he had on the Lords day in the Evening the Sermon which he preached in the Morning repeated in his Chappel by one of his Chaplains This was the way to have a Church in his House All Bishops do not write after this Canon nor this Copy I know a Minister a learned sober and zealous Conformist that after he had been with his Diocesan at his House or Palace to subscribe came home with a sad heart and professed it was not for any thing he had done but for the prophaness and disorder he observed in the Bishops Family amongst his Servants 'T is to the great commendation of the present Archbishop of Canterbury that which is reported of him That he keeps a good House that is in Bishop Goodman's Dialect he spends Church-Means in a Churchly manner And that he keeps a well-govern'd House allows not Debauchery if a Servant be drunk once there 's no place for a second Error If so it must be acknowledged that there is Discipline in that School where nothing saves but a primum tempus Quest Doth his Majesties Coronation-Oath to protect the Bishops and their Priviledges to his power as every good King in his Kingdoms in right ought to protect and defend the Bishops and Churches under their Government hinder his Majesty that he may not regulate the Jurisdiction of Bishops or remove the controverted Ceremonies out of the Church Answ Hear Mr. Geree one whom the Author of the Friendly Debate calls a discreet Presbyterian The King saith he is sworn to maintain the Laws of the Land in force at his Coronation and yet 't is not unlawful after to abrogate any upon the motion or with the consent of his Parliament The King is bound to maintain the Rights of the Clergy whilst they continue such but if any if their Rights be abrogated by just Power he stands no longer engaged in that particular If any Priviledges of the Clergy prove prejudicial or contrariant to the Laws and Liberties and Priviledges of the People which the King is bound to maintain the King may lawfully relieve his other Subjects by passing such Bills as may take away such Priviledges His Majesties Oath first made to his Subjects in general being lawful cannot be voided or superseded by his after-Oath to the Clergy And as for the Laws about Ceremonies they are not like those of the Medes and Persians unchangable but may be changed and the Rites and Ceremonies now in use may be abolished by the same power by which they were here established Quest Did the Nonconformists generally make Addresses formerly to Oliver Cromwel and Richard Cromwel Answ For my own part I never made any Address to O. C. or R. C. And the onely Address that the Presbyterian-Ministers of the City of London made to O. C. was for the saving the Life of Dr. Hewit As for Addresses to R. C. divers Now-Conformists at well as Nonconformists did joyn in them as they did also generally to General Monk for a Free Parliament in Order to his Majesties Restauration Quest Are not all
Care of all the Churches who professeth of himself I became all things to all men that by any means I might win some Or else that was in this Godly Archbishop Usher of whom 't is recorded in his Life That though he conformed himself yet he desired that his Majesty would not impose the English Ceremonies on the Irish Church saying If I had all mens Consciences in my keeping I could in these disputable Cases give Laws unto them as well as my self But 't is one thing what I can do and another thing what other men must do Since the Ceremonies be things saith our Church in their own nature indifferent and yet by some held superstitious and unlawful it seemeth to fall within the Apostles Rule which is That the strong do descend and yeild to the weaker if we will hearken to the Counsel of the Lord Chancellor Bacon in his Considerations touching the Church of England Quest. Doth the holy Scripture caution us against grieving our Brethren as well as against offending of them so as to occasion them to stumble and fall into sin Answ 'T is our duty not onely to prevent out Brothers fall but his fears and to keep his heart from sinking as well as his feet from falling To the weak became I as weak that I might gain the weak I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some 1 Cor. 9.22 'T is the part of a good Shepherd to carry the Lambs in his Arms and gently to lead the Ewes that are great with young and of Nursing Fathers and Mothers to be tender-hearted and tender-handed towards Babes towards weak and young Children If it be said We must not grieve or vex the Magistrate I answer 'T is true we must not but if the Magistrate please to remove the Law where there 's no Law there 's no Disobedience and then the Offence ceaseth And where there 's no Offence committed by the Inferiour there should be no Offence taken by the Superiour or when there is none given there should be none taken The things are alterable in themselves The Magistrate is a Minister of God for good and if he shall please to remove every stumbling-stone and grieving-thorn out of the way to the Church and out of the way of Obedience How shall God and his people bless him All the power that the Church hath it is to edification and not to destruction and there 's a far greater necessity of Unity than of Uniformity 'T is a great deal better not to make Canons than to make such as we fore-see will be broken by thousands and that under a pretence of Conscience and who are serious sober civil people in their Lives and Conversations Quest What may be thought the readiest way to make the Bishops work easie and his person to be beloved Answ 'T is I think to use Moderation to rule with Love and not with Rigor and that notwithstanding some young Counsellors some Hot-spurs may advise them as of old the young men did Rehoboam when their Brethren come to them and say Your Fore-fathers or your Predecessors divers of them made our Yoke grievous Now therefore make ye we pray you the grievous Service of your Fore-fathers and their heavy Yoke which they put upon us lighter and we will serve you To say to them Our little Finger shall be heavier than our Fore-fathers Loyns and now whereas they did lade you with a heavy Yoke we will adde to your Yoke Our Fore-fathers chastised you with Whips but we will chastise you with Scorpions The deeper you lay the Foundation in Humility and the broader in Charity the higher you may probably build your House and it may likewise stand the longer A well-grounded Jus Humanum may stand longer than a high-built pretended Jus Divinum And Reason shews saith one that Episcopacy will stand more firm in conjunction with Presbytery than by it self alone There be two circumstances saith my Lord Chancellor Bacon wherein I could never be satisfied the one the sole exercise of their Authority the other the deputation of their Authority For the first he saith surely I do suppose and I think upon good ground that ab initio non fuit ita And that the Deans and Chapters were Counsels about the Seas and Chairs of Bishops at the first and were unto them a Presbytery or Consistory And again we see that the Bishop of Rome Fas est ab hoste doceri and no question in that Church the first Institutions were excellent performeth all Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in Consistory with advice that is of the Cardinals or Parish-Priests of Rome And hereof again saith he we see divers shadows yet remaining as that the Dean and Chapter proformâ chooseth the Bishop which is the highest point of Jurisdiction Again The same Author tells us that the Bishop is a Judge and of a high nature Whence cometh it that he should depute considering that all trust and confidence is personal and inherent and cannot or ought not to be transposed surely in this again ab initio non fuitita But it is probable that Bishops when they gave themselves too much to the glory of the World and became Grandees in Kingdoms and great Counsellors to Princes then did they leave their proper Jurisdiction as things of too inferior a nature for their greatness And then after the similitude and immitation of Kings and Counts-Palatine they would have their Chancellors and Judges Quest Is the Author of the Fr. Debate so extraordinary zealous as he pretends for the honour of our Governours and Government in the State Answ See pag. 50 51. of the Continuation where he doth insinuate or more plainly inform the Nation that not only Nonconformists keep Conventicles but that Mass is said and that the Papists take the same liberty in the exercise of their Religion as the Nonconformists do in theirs And that little or no notice is taken of any Drunkards Sweaters or Blasphemers If he had pleased 't is to be thought he might have found great sins amongst the Clergy little taken notice of and not much punished in Ecclesiastical Courts If he had done like Shem and Japhet to have rather endeavoured to cover his nakedness he might have been blessed by them or else if he will needs have his jerks at Nonconformists though it light partly on his and our Superiors in the State to have gone on and have whipped the Buyers and Sellers in out of the Temple also Quest Do the Nonconformists teach the people railing language particularly to call all they like not Antichristian and Babylonish Vid. Contin p. 155 266 c. Answ Time was when Reverend and Renowned Mr. Vines that lost the Mastership of Pembroke-Hall in Cambridge because he would not subscribe the Engagement as did also Dr. Spurstow the Master of Katherine-Hall and Mr. Young of Jesus-Colledge for the same cause preaching before the Parliament said Henceforward he should take Antichrist for