Lordship be pleased to take notice of the drift of the Evidence how they are consistent one with another These Gentlemen that have now been sworn to prove that I was not at this Consult do attempt to prove that I was at St. Omers Now to answer this I shall not go about to prove that I was not then at St. Omers but that I was actually then and about that time here in London and then all that proof that Mr. Attorney-General has brought must be laid aside L. C. J. You say well prove that Oates Now my Lord to introduce and prepare the Jury for this it will be necessary I humbly conceive to read the Records of the Conviction of Whitebread and Ireland L. C. J. Well go your own way We are not to direct you I only tell you where the question lies Oates Sir Samuel Astrey pray be pleased to read them in English that the Jury may understand them First read Ireland's Record which was done Oates Now read Whitebread's Record Read but the Attainder I will not trouble the Court with the whole Record Cl. of the Crown Thomas White alias Whitebread William Harcourt alias Harrison John Fenwick John Gaven and Anthony Turner were found guilty of High-Treason and attainted and Execution awarded against them upon that Attainder Oates Does not the Record say The Jurors say upon their Oaths they are guilty L. C. J. Yes I 'll warrant you Cl. of the Crown It is Dicunt super sacramentum suum Oates Very well These my Lord I do produce as my first Evidence to prove that there was a Trayterous Consult held upon the 24th of April 78 at the White-horse-Tavern in the Strand it having been believed and affirmed by two Verdicts Now give me leave to offer but this to the Court That at the Trial of Mr. Ireland I gave so full and ample a Testimony against Whitebread and Fenwick accompanied with all the circumstances of Time and Place that my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs said The Evidence might be sufficient to have satisfied a private conscience though it was not a legal Proof then to convict him there being but one Witness against them And for this I call Mr. Robert Blayney Mr. Att. Gen. Pray swear Mr. Blayney which was done L. C. J. What do you ask Mr. Blayney Oates Mr. Blayney have you your Notes of Ireland's Trial here Mr. Blayney Yes Sir I have Oates Pray will you look into what my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs said when he discharged the Jury of Whitebread and Fenwick Mr. Blayney Whereabouts is it Sir in the Printed Trial Oates It is page 55. Mr. Blayney I have found the place what is it you would ask me about it Oates Whether my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs did not use these words to the Jury I do acknowledge that Mr. Oates has given a very full and ample Testimony accompanied with all the circumstances of Time and Place against them all That may go far with you all things considered to believe there is a Plot Yet I do not think they have proved it against Whitebread and Fenwick by Two Witnesses though the Testimony be so full as to satisfie a private conscience yet we must go according to Law too It will be convenient from what is already proved to have them stay till more proof come in 'T is a great Evidence that is against them but it not being sufficient in point of Law We discharge you of them It is not a legal Proof to convict them by whatsoever it may be to satisfie your consciences Mr. Blayney I have look'd upon my Notes and I cannot find exactly those words L. C. J. He says he cannot find that passage as it is there Mr. Blayney There is something to that purpose my Lord. Oates Pray Sir will you look into your Notes in the very same place what my Lord Chief Baron said You must speaking to the Jayler understand they are no way acquitted the Evidence is so full against them by Mr. Oates 's Testimony that there is no reason to acquit them it is as flat as by one Witness can be Mr. Blayney There is such a passage I find in my Notes L. C. J. He says there is such a passage Oates Then I desire Mr. Blayney would look into his Notes what my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs said in his summing up the Evidence against Ireland He mentions the Evidence of Sir Dennis Ashburnham who was produced to discredit me and then he adds When the matter is so accompanied with so many other circumstances which are material things and cannot be evaded or deny'd it is almost impossible for any man either to make such a story or not to believe it when it is told It is Ireland's Trial page 72. Mr. Blayney My Lord I do find such a passage in my Notes L. C. J. He says there is such a passage in his Notes Oates Then I would ask Mr. Blaney another question at the bringing in the Verdict of the Jury against Ireland Pickering and Grove my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs that then was had this expression You have done Gentlemen like very good Subjects and very good Christians that is to say like very good Protestants and now much good may their 30000 Masses do them Blayney Yes my Lord there is in my Notes such an expression of my L. C. J. Scroggs Oates Pray you Mr. Blayney have you Whitebread's Trial the Trial of the Five Jesuits I mean Mr. Blayney My Lord when I received a Subpoena from Mr. Oates to be here this day and to bring my Notes of Ireland Whitebread and Langhorns Trials I did as I did before upon another occasion make a search for all my Notes but could not find any but those of the Trial of Ireland and Langhorn and those I have brought here but have not Whitebread's L. C. J. He says he has not the Notes of Whitebread's Trial he cannot find them Oates Then I must desire my Lord that the Printed Trials may be read L. C. J. No they are no Evidence If you can prove what was said at any of them you may by Witnesses but not by the Printed Books Oates Then will your Lordship be pleased to give me leave to mention what was said by your Lordship at that time when you were Recorder of London about your satisfaction with the Evidence L. C. J. Ay with all my heart and whatever I said I will own if I can remember it Oates Will your Lordship be pleased to be sworn then L. C. J. No there will be no need for that I will acknowledge any thing I said then Oates Then if your Lordship pleases I will read those passages out of the Books L. C. J. Ay do so Oates Says Mr. Recorder of London in particular to that part of the Prisoners Defence at the Trial of the Five Jesuits and the full scope given them of making Objections to the Evidence when he gave Judgment of Death upon these Five Jesuits and
in a Family Lord Ch. Justice Was there any body else there Mrs. Mayo There were two of the Daughters and they could all come and testifie the same thing Lord Ch. Justice Where are they and what is become of them why are they not here Mrs. Mayo They are living in Lincolnshire my Lord I think Lord Ch. Justice What else have you more to say Mr. Att. Gen. Pray Mrs. Mayo let me ask you a question What colour'd Cloaths had he on when you faw him first Mrs. Mayo He had a whitish Hat and colour'd Cloaths Mr. Sol. Gen. What time of the day was it you saw him Mrs. Mayo In the morning Lord Ch. Justice Did he go publickly Mrs. Mayo Yes he went publickly Mr. Sol. Gen. Did he come often to the house Mrs. Mayo He was there frequently my Lord. Mr. Sol. Gen. Then it seems he was so disguis'd that he could walk publickly in the streets of London at Noon-day and was frequently in the Family Mrs. Mayo Yes my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice Now tell me who was in the Family Mr. Att. Gen. Mrs. Mayo Lord Ch. Justice Pray give me leave to ask her the question Who was there at that time Mrs. Mayo Sir Richard Barker's Ladies Sister Madam Thurrel and his two Daughters and two of his Kinsmen and two of the Servants one is here a Witness now Lord Ch. Justice Who is that that is a Witness now Mrs. Mayo One that belongs to Sir Richard Barker and the other is now dead those two Kinsmen are dead Lord Ch. Justice What is become of the two Daughters say you Mrs. Mayo They are in Lincolnshire as I take it my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice When did you hear from them Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord it is half a year ago almost since Mr. Oates had notice of this Trial. Lord Ch. Justice Where is Sir Richard Barker himself Mrs. Mayo I was with Sir Richard Barker and he purposed to have come hither but being a crazy man and ancient it seems he could not and desir'd to be excus'd for he had a bad night and was not well but he desired that the Court should know if he were well he would be there Mr. Att. Gen. Were you sworn at a former Trial about this matter Mrs. Mayo Mrs. Mayo Yes Sir I was Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember what you swore then Mrs. Mayo The same I do now Mr. Att. Gen. Then I ask you this question How long before Whitsuntide was it that you saw Mr. Oates at Sir Richard Barker's Mrs. Mayo A pretty while before twice Oates Mrs Mayo I 'll put you a fair question Whether or no it might not be a fortnight before Whitsuntide you think Mrs. Mayo The last time I saw you was a week before Whitsuntide Lord Ch. Justice How can you tell it was but a week Mrs. Mayo 'T was but a week because at that time I had sent the Boy for the Woman to scowr and wash there Lord Ch. Justice Was that the last time you saw him Mrs. Mayo Yes I saw him several times before and it was all before Whitsuntide Lord Ch. Justice How long before that was the first time that you saw him Mrs. Mayo He would be away for three or four days and come again Lord Ch. Justice But how long before the last time was the first time you saw him Mrs. Mayo He came still to and again Lord Ch. Justice When was the time that you saw him next before the week before Whitsuntide which as you say was the last time you saw him Mrs. Mayo I am not able to say that Lord Ch. Justice Did you believe it was within the compass of a week before Mrs. Mayo To the best of my remembrance it was Lord Ch. Justice When was the first time you saw him Mrs Mayo 'T was in the beginning of May. Lord Ch. Justice You said at first it was the latter-end of April Mrs. Mayo Pray my Lord let me a little think I am unwilling to be mistaken I would say nothing but the Truth Lord Ch. Justice No I would not have thee but for Gods sake let us have the Truth that is that we look for Mrs. Mayo I say the Coach-man saw him there as well as I and he can tell you better than I. Lord Ch. Justice But I ask you this question positively Was it in May or April Mrs Mayo To the best of my remembrance it was the beginning of May Lord Ch. Justice Was it within a week of May Mrs. Mayo I believe it was I cannot tell exactly to a day Mr. Sol. Gen. Was it so or not Mrs Mayo I cannot be positive to a day it is now six years time since I was first examin'd about it Mr Att Gen But you can remember what you swore then can't you Mrs Mayo I declare it I speak not a syllable but I will aver to be true before the great God Mr. Sol. Gen Can you swear it was within the first seven days of May Lord Chief Justice You see Mr. Sollicitor she says she cannot Mr. Att Gen Did not you say at that Trial that you did never see his face till a week before Whitsuntide or a little after Mrs. Mayo I did swear the same that I do now to the best of my remembrance that is the Truth Mr Att Gen But did you not swear so Mrs Mayo I never saw him before that first time he came to Sir Richard Barker's and after the last time that he came I saw him not till after the Plot was discovered Mr. Sol. Gen. How long was that after he had been at your Masters horse Mrs. Mayo It was a good while I cannot tell how long Lord Ch. Justice Was it within a month or two months Mrs. Mayo It was more my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice Where was Sir Richard Barker at that time Mrs. Mayo He was at Putney Lord Ch. Justice Then he did not see him Mrs. Mayo Not then he did not Lord Ch. Justice Did he afterwards Mrs. Mayo Yes he did see him afterwards Lord Ch. Justice How long afterwards was it Mrs. Mayo I can't tell how long afterwards it was my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice About what time was it Mrs. Mayo After the Plot was discovered he was up and down in the Family Lord Ch. Justice You never knew Mr. Oates before that time he came in a Disguise and you did not know him then but as they told you it was he Mrs. Mayo No I did not but as they told me then and this is the man I 'll swear it Oates Call John Butler Crier Here is John Butler Oates Swear him which was done My Lord if you please I will propose my questions to your Lordship and my first question is this I pray your Lordship would ask him Whether he gave in any Evidence at the Five Jesuits Trial or Langhorn's Trial about my being in Town in April or May 78 Lord Ch. Justice Did you give any Evidence at the Five
Jesuits Trial Butler Yes I did Lord Ch. Justice Did you give any Evidence at Langhorn's Trial Butler Yes my Lord I was a Witness there Oates My Lord it is so long ago that ignorant people that come innocently without design may not be so ready in their remembrance as those that conn'd their Leston for so long time together Lord Ch. Justice Well well what do you ask him next Whether he will stand by that Evidence he gave then Butler That is all I have to say my Lord I did testifie the Truth then and will abide by it Lord Ch. Justice But he must give the same over again here or it will signifie nothing Oates My Lord it is now six years since and this question was not thought to be stirr'd so long after Therefore I beg so much favour that the Evidence he did give at Mr. Langhorn's Trial may be read to him Lord Ch. Justice O by no means Oates My Lord it is such a distance of time Lord Ch. Justice Look ye if he has any Notes himself he may look on them to refresh him Oates My Lord he comes raw hither without any instruction at all Lord Ch. Justice So should every Witness God forbid we should countenance the instructing of Witnesses what they should swear Oates I beg your pardon my Lord I did hope this favour might be granted I will then ask him some questions Lord Ch. Justice Ay ay do refresh his memory by questions as much as you can Come I 'll ask him some questions for you Do you remember you saw Mr. Oates at any time in the year 78 Butler If it please your Lordship as near as I can remember I saw him in May before the Plot was discovered Lord Ch. Justice That was the year 78. Butler I am sure I did see him about that time Lord Ch. Justice Where did you see him Butler I was a Servant to Sir Richard Barker and Mr. Oates I had been acquainted with before he went to Sea he us'd to come to my Masters house frequently and divers times he din'd at the Table and I waited upon my Master there Lord Ch. Justice When was that he din'd there at the Table Butler A year before that time in May that I spoke of before It was before he went to Sea Lord Ch. Justice When did you see him again Butler After he came from Sea I saw him at my Masters house Lord Ch. Justice When was it that he went to Sea Butler It was a year or two before the May that I saw him disguis'd coming to my Masters house Mr. Att. Gen. Ay what disguise did he come in Butler His hair was cut off close cropt to his ears and an old white Hat over his head and a short gray Coat over like a Horse mans Coat Lord Ch. Justice How came you to take such notice of him at that time as to be able to swear when this was Butler I was call'd presently after for a Witness Lord Ch. Justice How long after this was it that you were call'd to be a Witness Butler It was when the Trials were at the Old Bailey Lord Ch. Justice Was this the first time you had recollected these circumstances Butler Yes my Lord that was the first time Lord Ch. Justice Then how came you a year and a halfs time afterwards to remember the precise month of May when you did not know you should be call'd to question about it and yet you cannot remember the time particularly when Oates went to Sea but take the compass of a year or two Butler I guess it was a year before I cannot exactly tell Lord Ch. Justice When you can but guess at the time of such a remarkable passage within the compass of a year or two how can you pitch upon the very month for such a thing as this is a year and halfs time after Oates No my Lord it was not so long as a year and a half Lord Ch. Justice Pray Sir have patience Oates My Lord the Records shew that Ireland's Trial was the 17th of December 78 and the Five Jesuits Trial was the 15th of June 79. Lord Ch. Justice Then it is a full twelve months time and more from the May that he says he saw you at Sir Richard Barker's to Whitebread's Tryal in which he was examin'd the first time Now that which I desire of him is to give me a reason why he remembers it was in the May was twelve-month before Butler My Lord The Lady whom I did serve dy'd in February before that year Lord Ch. Justice But give me some reason of your remembrance so long after Butler My Lord I do as well as I can Lord Ch. Justice Well what is it Butler My Lady was buried in February and he comes into the Yard where I was cleaning my Coach in May following that February which was May before the Discovery of the Plot. He ask'd me what alteration was in the Family I told him my Lady was dead and the Escutcheon was over the door for her He ask'd for Doctor Tongue when he came first in the house Lord Ch. Justice Why should he ask for Doctor Tongue Butler My Lord Doctor Tongue lodg'd there and he did ask for him I come to justifie the Truth upon my Salvation what I say is true Lord Ch. Justice Well when he ask'd whether Doctor Tongue was within what said you Butler I told him no but he went into the Room where Doctor Tongue us'd to lie but found him not there So he went out again that was the same time Mrs. Mayo saw him Lord Ch. Justice But Friend prethee mind what I ask thee because thou must give me satisfaction how thou com'st to remember this so as to be able to swear it for his going to ask for Tongue or the Escutcheon being over the door neither of those can be a reason for you to remember that this was in May for the Escutcheon may be up in June or in July or in August or in any other month after the time you speak of But how came you to take notice of this business that it was in May Butler Sir Richard Barker my Master was then sick at Putney which was in May though I cannot speak to a day or a week particularly Lord Ch. Justice Then prethee let me ask thee this question How long had your Master been sick before that Butler He had never been well since my Lady dy'd Lord Ch. Justice When was it that your Lady dy'd Butler In February before L. C. J. How long after that did your Master Sir Richard Barker continue sick Butler Half a year I believe L. C. J. Why then suppose your Master fell sick immediately after your Lady died and he continued sick half a year after yet all this while Oates might come during his sickness even in the month of June or July when 't is acknowledg'd he was in Town and not be here in February which is testified by
I Do appoint Richard Sare to Print the two Tryals of Titus Otes for Perjury And Order That no other Person do presume to Print the same Jeffreys THE TRYALS Convictions Sentence OF TITUS OTES UPON TWO INDICTMENTS For Willful Malicious and Corrupt PERJURY AT THE KINGS-BENCH-BARR at Westminster Before the Right Honourable George Lord Jeffreys Baron of Wem Lord Chief Justice of His Majesties Court of Kings-Bench and the rest of the Judges of that Court. Upon Friday the 8th and Saturday the 9th days of May Anno Domini 1685. And in the First Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord King JAMES the II. c. LONDON Printed for R. Sare at Grays-Inn-Gate in Holborn and are to be sold by Randal Taylor 1685. Die veneris oct Maii 1685. in Banco Regis De Term. Pasch Anni Regni Regis Jacobi primi Dominus Rex versus Titus Oates THis day being apointed for the Tryal of one of the Causes between our Soveraign Lord the King and Titus Oates for Perjury the same began between eight and nine in the Morning and proceeded in the manner following First Proclamation was made for Silence then the Defendant was called who appeared in Person being brought up by Rule from the King's Bench Prison where we was in Custody and was advised to look to his Challenges to the Jury that were Impanel'd to try the Cause Oates My Lord I am to manage my own Defence and have a great many Papers and things which I have brought in order to it I pray I may have some Conveniency for the Managing my own Tryal Lord C. Justice Ay Ay let him sit down there within the Bar and let him have Conveniency for his Papers Clerk Crown Cryer swear Sir William Dodson Oates My Lord I except against Sir William Dodson Mr. Att. Gen. What is the Cause of Exception Mr. Oats L. C. J. Why do you challenge him Oates My Lord I humbly conceive in these cases of Criminal Matters the Defendant has Liberty of excepting against any of the Jurors without shewing Cause provided there be a full Jury besides L. C. J. No no that is not so you are mistaken in that Mr. Oates Oates My Lord I am advised so I do not understand the Law my self L. C. J. But we tell you then it cannot be allow'd if Mr. Attorney will consent to wave him well and good Mr. Att. Gen. No my Lord I know no reason for it I cannot consent to any such thing L. C. J. Then if you will not have him sworn you must shew your Cause presently Oates My Lord I cannot assign any Cause L. C. J. Then he must be sworn Cl. Cr. Swear him Cryer Sir William Dodson take the Book you shall well and truly try this Issue between our Soveraign Lord the King and Titus Oates and a true Verdict give according to the Evidence so help you God Cl. Cr. Swear Sir Edmund Wiseman which was done Richard Aley Esq who was sworn Benjamin Scutt Oates My Lord I challenge him L. C. J. For what Cause Oates My Lord he was one of the Grand Jury that found the Bill L. C. J. Was he so that is an exception indeed what say you Mr. Attorney Att. Gen. My Lord I believe he was upon one of the Indictments but I think it was not this L. C. J. But if he were in either of them he cannot be so impartial Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we will not stand upon it we 'll wave him Cl. Cl. Thomas Fowlis Oates Pray let me see that Gentleman who was shown to him Are you not a Goldsmith in Fleetstreet between the two Temples Fowlis Yes I am Oates Very well Sir I do not except against you only I desire to know whether it were you or not Cl. Cr. Swear him which was done Thomas Blackmore Sworn Peter Pickering Sworn Robert Beddingfield Sworn Thomas Rawlinson Sworn Roger Reeves Sworn Edward Kempe sworn Oates My Lord I challenge him L. C. J. You speak too late he is sworn already Oates My Lord they are so quick I could not speak but he was one of the Grand Jury too L. C. J. We cannot help it now Mr. Att. Gen. I did know that he was so but to shew that we mean nothing but fair we are content to wave him L. C. J. You do very well Mr. Attorney General let him be withdrawn Cl. Cr. Mr. Kempe you may take your case swear Ambrose Isted which was done Henry Collier Sworn Richard Howard Sworn Cl. Cr. Cryer count these Cryer One c. Sir William Dodson Cl. Cr. Richard Howard Cryer Twelve good men and true hearken to the Record and stand together and hear the Evidence The Names of the Twelve sworn were these Jury Sir William Dodson Sir Edmund Wiseman Richard Aley Thomas Fowlis Thomas Blackmore Peter Pickering Robert Beddingfield Thomas Rawlinson Roger Reeves Ambrose Isted Henry Collier and Richard Howard Oates Before the Councel opens the Cause I desire to move one thing to your Lordship L. C. J. What is it you would have Oates My Lord I have three Witnesses that are very material one's to my Defence who are now Prisoners in the King's Bench for whom I moved yesterday that I might have a Rule of Court to bring them up to day but it was objected that they were in Execution and so not to be brought I humbly move your Lordship now that I may have a Habeas Corpus for them to bring them immediately hither L. C. J. We cannot do it Oates Pray Good my Lord they are very material Witnesses for me and I mov'd yesterday for them L. C. J. You did so but we told your Councel then and so we tell you now we cannot do it by Law it will be an escape Oates My Lord I shall want their Testimony L. C. J. Truely we cannot help it the Law will not allow it and you must be satisfied Cl. Cr. Gentlemen you that are sworn of this Jury hearken to the Record by Virtue of an Inquisition taken at Justice Hall in the Old Bayly in the Parish of St. Sepulcher in the Ward of Faringdon without London upon Wednesday the 10th of December in the 36th of the Raign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the II. by the grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. Before Sir James Smith Knight Mayor of the City of London Sir George Jefferies Knight and Baronet Lord Chief Justice of this Honourable Court Sir Thomas Jones Knight Lord Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas William Montague Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer Sir James Edwards Knight Sir John More Knight Aldermen of the said City Sir Thomas Jenner Knight one of his Majesties Sergeants at Law and Recorder of the same City and others their Companions Justices of Oyer and Terminer by the Oaths of twelve Jurors Honest and Lawful Men of the City of London aforesaid who then and there being sworn and charged to enquire for
our said Lord the King and the Body of the City aforesaid upon their Oaths present that at the Session of our Soveraign Lord the King holden for the County of Middlesex at Hick's Hall in St. John's Street in the County aforesaid on Monday to wit 16 Deaem in the year of the Raign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. the thirtieth before Sir Reginald Forster Baronet Sir Philip Matthews Baronet Sir William Bowls Knight Sir Charles Pitfield Knight Thomas Robinson Humphrey Wyrley Thomas Hariott and William Hempson Esquires Justices of the said Soveraign Lord the King to enquire by the Oath of Honest and Lawful Men of the County of Middlesex aforesaid and by other Ways manners means by which they might better know as well within Liberties as without by whom the Truth of the matter may be better known and enquired of whatsoever Treasons Misprisions of Treasons Insurrections Rebellions Counterfeitings Clippings washings and false makings of the Money of this Kingdom of England and of other Kingdoms and Dominions whatsoever and of whatsoever Murders Felonies Man-slaughters Killings Burglaries and other Articles and Offences in the Letters Pattents of our said Soveraign Lord the King to them or any four or more of them therefore directed specified as also the Accessaries of the same within the County aforesaid as well within Liberties as without by whomsoever howsoever had made done or committed and the said Treasons and other the Premises to hear and determine according to the Law and Custom of this Kingdom of England being assigned by the Oath of Ralph Wain John Vaughan Richard Foster Thomas Paget Robert Newington Henry Tompkins Robert Hays John Greenwood Peter Stimpson Josias Crosley Richard Richman Augustine Bear John King Nathaniel Brett Francis Fisher and Samuel Linn Honest and Lawful Men of the County aforesaid sworn and charged to enquire for our said Soveraign Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid upon their Oaths It was presented that Thomas White otherwise Whitebread late of the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Clerk William Ireland late of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk John Fenwick late of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk Thomas Pickering of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Clerk John Grove of the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid Gent. as false Traitors against the most Illustrious Serene and most excellent Prince our said late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. Their Supreme and Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in their Hearts nor weighing the Duty of their Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil The Cordial Love and True and Natural Obedience which faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him should and of right ought to bear utterly withdrawing and contriving and with all their Might intending the Peace and Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England used and by Law established to subvert and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and the Cordial Love and true and due Obedience which Faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards him the said Soveraign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear utterly to withdraw put out and extinguish and our said Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put the four and twentieth day of April in the year of the Reign of our late Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. the thirtieth at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly and trayterously did purpose compass Imagine and Intend Sedition and Rebellion within this Kingdom of England to move stir up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said late Lord the King from the Regal State Title Power and Government of his Kingdom of Enggland utterly to deprive depose cast down and dis-inherit and him our said late Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the said Kingdom and the sincere Religion of God rightly by the Laws of the said Kingdom established at their Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingom of England throughout all its parts well instituted and ordain'd wholly to subvert and destroy and war against our said late Soveraign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to levy and those their most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid to fullfil and perfect They the aforesaid Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove other false Traytors to the Jurors not known the said four and twentieth day of April in the year of the Reign of our said late Soveraign Lord the King the Thirtieth with Force and Arms c. at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly Devilishly and Traiterously did assemble themselves unite and meet together and then and there falsly maliciously subtilely advisedly devilishly and Trayterously did consult and agree our said late Soveraign Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Religion within this Kingdom of England rightly and by the Laws of the same Kingdom established to the Superstition of the Romish Church to change and alter and the sooner to fulfil and perfect their said most wicked Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and purposes they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove and other false Traytors of our said late Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors unknown afterwards to wit the same 24th day of April in the said 30th year of our said late Soverain Lord the King at the said aforesaid Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid falsly subtilely advisedly devilishly and Trayterously among themselves did conclude and agree that they the aforesaid Thomas Pickering John Grove him the said late Soveraign Lord the King should kill and murder and that they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick and other false Traytors to the Jurors unknown A certain number of Masses between them then and there agreed for the Health of the Soul of him the said Thomas Pickering therefore should say Celebrate and perform and therefore should pay unto the said John Grove a certain Sum of Money between them then and there agreed and the Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath aforesaid did
further present that the said Thomas Pickering and John Grove upon the agreement aforesaid then and there falsly subtilely advisedly Maliciously devilishy and Trayterously did take upon them and did promise to the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick and other false Traytors of our late said Soveraign Lord the King to the Jurors aforesaid unknown then and there falsly subtilely advisedly maliciously devilishy and Trayterously did promise that they the said Thomas Pickering and John Grove would kill and murder our said late Soveraign Lord the King and they the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering John Grove and other false Traytors of oursaid late Soveraign Lord the King afterwards to wit the said four and twentieth day of April in the thirtieth year aforesaid at the said aforesaid Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex aforesaid subtilely advisedly maliciously devilishly and Trayterously did severally every one of them give their Faith each to the other and upon the Sacrament then and there trayterously did swear and promise to conceal and not to divulge their said most wicked Treasons and Trayterous Compassings Consultations and Purposes so between them had him our said late Soveraign Lord the King Trayterously to kill and murder and the Romish Religion in this Kingdom of England to be used to introduce and the true Reformed Religion in this Kingdom of England rightly and by the Laws of the same Kingdom established to alter and change and that the said aforesaid Thomas Pickering and John Grove in Execution of their Traiterous Agreement aforesaid afterwards to wit the same Four and Twentieth day of April in the Thirtieth year aforesaid and divers other days and times after at the said aforesaid Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County aforesaid Muskets Pistols Swords Daggers and other offensive and cruel Weapons him the our said late Soveraign Lord the King to kill and murder falsly subtilely advisedly maliciously and Trayterously did prepare and obtain for themselves had and kept and that they the aforesaid Thomas Pickering and John Grove afterwards to wit the said Four and Twentieth Day of April in the Thirtieth year aforesaid and divers days and times afterwards with Force and Arms c. at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid and in other places within the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilely advisedly maliciously devilishly and Trayterously did lie in wait and indeavour our said late Soveraign Lord the King to murder and that the said Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick and other false Traitors to the Jurors unknown afterwards to wit the same Four and Twentieth day of April in the Thirtieth year aforesaid at the Parish aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilely advisedly maliciously devilishly and Trayterously did prepare perswade excite abett comfort and counsel Four other Persons Men to the Jurors unknown and Subjects of our said late Soveraign Lord the King him our said late Soveraign Lord the King Trayterously to kill and murder against the Duty of their Allegiance against the Peace of our said late Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in that Case made and provided and thereupon it was so far proceeded that afterwards to wit at the Court of Goal-delivery of our Soveraign Lord the King of Newgate at Justice Hall in the Old Baily in the Suburbs of the City of London in the Parish of St. Sepulchre in the Ward of Farington without London aforesaid the seventeenth day of December in the Thirtieth year aforesaid before the Justices of our said Lord the King then and there being present held by adjourment for the County of Middlesex aforesaid before whom the Indictment aforesaid was then depending came the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove under the Custody of Sir Richard How Knight Sir John Chapman Knight Sheriffs of the County of Middlesex aforesaid into whose Custody for the Cause aforesaid before that were committed being there brought to the Bar in their proper Persons and immediately being severally spoken unto concerning the Premisses above charged upon them how they would acquit themselves thereof the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove did say that they were not thereof guilty and for the same for good and bad they severally put themselves upon the Country and by a certain Jury of the Country on that behalf in due manner Impaneld sworn and charged then and there in the same Court before the Justices of Goal delivery aforesaid were tryed and that upon that Tryal between our said late Soveraign Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove at London aforesaid to wit at Justice Hall in the Old Baily aforesaid in the Parish and Ward aforesaid the Defendant Titus Oates by the name of Titus Oates late of the Parish of St. Sepulchre aforesaid in the Ward aforesaid Clerk was a Witness produced on the Behalf of our late Soveraign Lord the King upon the Tryal aforesaid and before the aforesaid Justices of Goal-delivery in the Court aforesaid then and there held upon the Holy Evangelists of God to speak and testifie the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth of and in the Premisses between our said late Soveraign Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove put in Issue was duely sworn and that he the aforesaid Titus Oates then and there in the Court of Goal delivery aforesaid upon his Oath aforesaid upon the Indictment aforesaid at the Parish and Ward aforesaid by his own proper act and consent of his most wicked Mind falsly voluntarily and corruptly did say depose swear and to the Jurors of the Jury aforesaid then and there sworn and Impanel'd to try the Issue aforesaid between our said late Soveraign Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove did give in Evidence that there was a Trayterous Consult of Jesuits that were assembled at a certain Tavern called the White Horse Tavern in the Strand in the White Horse-Tavern in the Strand in the County of Midd. aforesaid meaning upon the Four and Twentieth day of April in the Year of our Lord 1678. At which Consult Whitebread Fenwick Ireland the aforesaid Thomas White alias Whitebread John Fenwick and William Ireland meaning and he the said Titus Oates were present and that the Jesuites aforesaid did separate themselves into several lesser Companies and that the Jesuites aforesaid came to a resolution to murder the said our late Lord the King and that he the said Titus Oates did carry the Resolution aforesaid from Chamber to Chamber and did see that Resolution signed by them the aforesaid Jesuites meaning whereas in truth and in deed the aforesaid Titus Oates was not present at any Consult of the Jesuites at the White Horse-Tavern aforesaid in the Strand in
the County of Middlesex aforesaid upon the 24th of April in the Year of our Lord 1678. nor did carry any Resolution to murder our said late Lord the King from Chamber to Chamber by any Persons to be signed and so he the aforesaid Titus Oates on the 17th day of Decemb. in the Thirtieth Year aforesaid at the Justice Hall aforesaid in the Court aforesaid upon the Tryal aforesaid upon the Indictment aforesaid between our said late Lord the King and the aforesaid William Ireland Thomas Pickering and John Grove so as aforesaid had by his own proper act and Consent and of his most wicked Mind falsly voluntarily and corruptly in manner and form aforesaid did commit voluntary and corrupt Perjury to the great Displeasure of Almighty God in manifest contempt of the Laws of this Kingdom of England to the Evil and Pernicious Example of all others in like case offending and against the Peace of our said late Soveraign Lord the Knig his Crown and Dignity Upon this Indictment he has been Arraign'd and thereunto hath pleaded not Guilty and for his Tryal hath put himself upon the Country and His Majestie 's Attorney General likewise which Country are you your Charge is to enquire whether the Defendant be guilty of this Perjury and Offence whereof he is now indicted or whether not guilty If you find him Guilty you are to say to if you find him not guilty you are to say so and no more and hear your Evidence Cryer make Proclamation Oates Hold Sir I beg one Favour of your Lordship to give me leave to have that part of the Record wherein I am said to have sworn such and such things read distinctly in Latine L. C. J. Let it be read in Latin Cl. Cr. Juravit jur ' jurat ' predict ' ad tunc et ibidem jurat ' et impanelat ' ad triena exitum predict inter dict' Dn'um nostrum Regem et prefat ' Will'm Ireland Thomam Pickering et Iohannem Grove in Evidentiis dedit quod fuit proditoria Consultatio Anglicae Consult ' Jesuit ' qui Assemblat ' fuer ' apud quandam Tabernam vocat ' the White Horse Tavern in le Strand Le White Horse Tavern in le Strand in Com' Mid ' predict ' innuendo super vicesimum quartum diem April ' Ann. Dom. milesimo sexcentesimo septuagesimo Octavo ad quam quidere Consultationem Whitebread Fenwick Ireland predict ' Thomam White alias Whitebread Johannem Fenwick et William Ireland innuendo et prefat ' Titus Oates fuer ' present ' et quod Jesuitae predict ' sese separaver ' in seperales minores Conventus quodque Jesuitae predict ' venerunt ad Resolutionem ad murdrand dictum Dn'um Regem et quod ipse idem Titus Oates portavit Resolutionem predict ' a Camera ad Cameram et videbat Resolutionem illam signat ' per ipsos praefat Jesuitas innuendo That is the Perjury that you are said to have sworn Oates Pray go on Sir Ubi revera Cl. Cr. Ubi revera et in predict ' Titus Oates non presens fuit ad aliquam Consultationem Jesuit ' apud le White Horse Tavern predict ' in le Strand in Com' Mid ' predict ' super vicesimum quartum diem Aprilis Anno Domini milesimo sexcentesimo septuagesimo octavo necportavit aliquam Resolutionem ad d'tum d'num Regem murdrand a Camera ad Cameram per aliquas Perfunas fignand ' Mr. Just Withens Now you have read it go on Sir to make your Proclamation Cl. Cr. Cryer make an Ho-yes Cryen Ho-yes If any one can inform our Soveraign Lord the King the Kings Sergeant the Kings Attorney General or this inquest now taken concerning the Perjury and Offence whereof the Defendant Titus Oates stands Indicted let them come forth and they shall be heard for now he stands upon his Discharge Mr. Phipps May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury Oates My Lord I desire your Lordship and the Court would be of Councel for me in one thing which I take to be a Fault and Error in my Indictment L. C. J. Look you Mr. Oates whatever you have to say of that nature you must not speak to it now you will have your time as to that hereafter in case you be Convicted Oates My Lord I have but one small exception to open to you L. C. J. We are now upon the Fact only Oates My Lord I beg you would give me leave only to tell you of a mistake in the Indictment which I hope when I have opened will satisfie your Lordship that it ought not to be put upon me or the Court to try this Cause or to be sure if there should be a Conviction I hope I may move an Arrest of the Judgement L. C. J. So I tell you you may but not now Oates Good my Lord hear me but a few Words the Indictment charges me to have given such and such Evidence that there was such a Consult of the Jesuites at the White-Horse Tavern in the Strand the 24th of April 1678. that the Jesuites did afterwards divide themselves in several lesser Companies that they came there to a resolution to murder the late King and that I swore that I carryed that Resolution from Chamber to Chamber and saw the Resolution signed by them so the Word is Signat ' now the Perjury assigned is that I was not present at that Consult nor did carry the Resolution from Chamber to Chamber to be signed and there the word is Signand ' now I conceive if Signat ' be the word that is used in setting forth the Oath that I made The Assignment of the Perjury ought to follow that form and the Word there ought to be Signat ' too being Signand ' I take that to be an Error L. C. J. Look that is not proper at this time as I told you at first but withal I do not think there is any great matter in what you say Mr. Att. Gen. Either I do not understand Mr. Oates what he means by the Objection or he will find himself much mistaken in it L. C. J. Well well we have nothing to do with that now go on with the Cause Mr. Phipps May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury this is an Indictment against Titus Oates for Perjury which Indictment sets forth that Thomas White alias Whitebread William Ireland John Fenwick Thomas Pickering and John Grove the Sixteenth of Dec. in the Thirtieth year of the late King at the Old Baily were indicted of High Treason for conspiring the Death of the King and that Ireland Pickering and Grove were tryed the 17th of Decemb. in that year and upon that Indictment Titus Oates was produced as a Witness on the behalf of the King against the said Ireland Pickering and Grove being sworn to give Evidence to the Jury that were Impanelled and sworn to try that Cause he did swear and give in evidence that there
Sol. Gen. Swear Mr. Anthony Turbervile which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Were you at St. Omers in 77 and 78 Mr. A. Turbervile Yes my Lord I was Mr. Att. Gen. Did you observe the Defendant Mr. Oates there at that time Mr. A. Turbervile Yes I observ'd him all the while he was there Mr. Att. Gen. When did he come to St. Omers Mr. A. Turbervile In the year 77 about Christmas Mr. Att. Gen. When went he away Mr. A. Turbervile A Gentleman who was formerly sworn Mr. Thornton and I were at Breakfast with him the self-same time when he went away L. C. J. When was that Mr. A. Turbervile I suppose about the latter-end of June 78. Mr. Att. Gen. Did you observe him to be there in April or May 78 Mr. A. Turbervile He was not absent above one night in January that I can remember from his first coming thither for it was impossible he should be absent and not miss'd he sitting at a distinct Table by himself and his Conversation being so remarkable for a great many ridiculous actions and a great many pretty jests that he us'd so that he was like a silly person as I may call him that us'd to make sport and no body could be miss'd so soon as he And I saw a little Boy in the Colledge beat him up and down with a Foxes Tail Indeed my Lord all his actions were very remarkable I see him very much abusive to persons that liv'd with him in the Colledge and Mr. Oates could not be a person of this note but all the world must take notice of him and all that knew him must miss him if he were away L. C. J. You hear him Mr. Oates he gives you a particular Character he says you were a very notorious person in many instances Mr. A. Turbervile My Lord I was a person then the youngest in the whole Company and Mr. Oates being very abusive to me I did what became me to right my self upon him Oates Pray my Lord be pleas'd to ask this Gentleman what the Name was he went by at St. Omers Mr. A. Turbervile By my Grandmothers Name which was Farmer L. C. J. Do you remember the time when Mr. Hildesley went away from St. Omers Mr. A. Turbervile He went away upon a Sunday Mr. Oates remain'd afterwards there I am positive I saw him several days after L. C. J. Do you remember when Mr. Burnaby came thither Mr. A. Turbervile Yes my Lord and Mr. Oates was there then L. C. J. Will you ask him any questions If you are not ready I will ask him some for you Come what Religion are you of Mr. A. Turbervile I am a Roman Catholick my Lord. L C. J. Well and how long were you at St. Omers Mr. A. Turbervile Six years and upward my Lord. L. C. J. When you came away from thence did you come directly for England Mr. A. Turbervile I took a circumference round Oates My Lord I do find my Defence is under a very great prejudice L. C. J. Why so because we won't let you ask impertinent questions or such as may render the Witnesses obnoxious to a Penalty Oates No my Lord it is not fit they should for there is a Turn to be serv'd L. C. J. What do you mean by that Ay and a good Turn too if these Witnesses swear true 'T is to bring Truth to light and perjur'd Villains to condign punishment Oates Good my Lord be pleased to hear me L. C. J. If you behave not your self with that respect to the Court as you ought pray get you gone Do you think you shall give such language as this in a Court of Justice Oates My Lord I did not design L. C. J. If you behave your self as you should you shall have all due regard but if you flie out into such abusive extravagancies we 'll calm you as you ought to be calm'd Oates I would vindicate my self I meant it not of the Court. L. C. J. So you had need Don't think we sit here to let you asperse the Justice of the Court and of the Nation as if the Judges sate here to serve a Turn Oates I say these men do come to serve a Turn but I laid no aspersion upon the Court nor meant it of them L. C. J. Behave your self as you ought and you shall be heard with all the fairness can be desir'd Oates I did perceive your Lordship and the Court made your selves pleasant with my questions L. C. J. I did not make my self pleasant with your questions but when you ask impertinent ones you must be corrected You see we do the same thing with them I find fault with nothing but what is not to the purpose Oates My Lord I desire it may be observ'd that these men that come now are the same Witnesses that appeared at the Old-Bailey and were not believed there L. C. J. Observe what you will by and by Mr. Att. Gen. No they are other Men but they bear the same Testimony indeed Mr. Sol. Gen. Swear Mr. Clavering which was done Mr. Att. Gen. Come Sir I 'll ask you a short question Were you at St. Omers with Mr. Oates and when Mr. Clavering Yes I was I came the 10th of December 77 to St. Omers he told me he came thither that day too and I liv'd there all the time that he was there which was till towards the middle of Summer I do not remember that he ever was absent but once at Watton Mr. Att. Gen. Do you remember Mr. Burnaby's coming thither Mr. Clavering Mr. Oates was there when Mr. Burnaby came there Mr. Sol. Gen. Was he there when Pool came away Mr. Clavering He was there when Mr. Pool went away and likewise I remember his being there at the time of the Congregation Mr. Att. Gen. Pray tell the circumstance how you know he was there then Mr. Clavering There came a Gentleman there that desir'd a Charity of the Students and I was the person that made the collection for him in the house and I remember he did ask if there was any one that was a Student there that had been in Spain We told him there was one and describ'd him upon which he knew the Gentleman in Spain upon that I told Mr. Oates that there was one there that knew him but he deny'd to come and speak with him Now I remember that it was the time of the Congregation for some enquiry made why he got so little money at Watton and it was said it was because the Fathers were gone to the Congregation in England And he ask'd me particularly What was done at the Congregation in England L. C. J. Did Oates ask that question Mr. Clavering Yes my Lord he did L. C. J. Whom did he ask it of Mr. Clav. Of me L. C. J. When was that Mr. Clavering I think it was about the time of the Congregation L. C. J. How came he to enquire after it Mr. Clavering I was talking with him
you were present at a Consult of the Jesuits the 24th of April 78. at the White-horse-Tavern in the Strand Ubi revera you were not there Now Do you admit in the first place that you were forsworn in that particular Oates No my Lord I do not L. C. J. If the Jury find that you were forsworn in that first point that you were not there it will be easily believed you swore false in the other point that you did not carry the Resolution from Chamber to Chamber Oates But my Lord it is not well assign'd I think L. C. J. That will be sav'd to you after the Verdict I tell you if there be occasion for it Oates My Lord I suppose the Proof ought to be according to the Record and the Record makes the Perjury differ from the Oath L. C. J. I tell you that is to the form and that will be sav'd to you after the Verdict one way or the other Oates Then will your Lordship be pleased to consider there was a Record brought in which is almost the same with that I am to offer to be read on my behalf and which is the first Proof that I have to offer of the Consult that was held in London in April 78. And I desire Mr. Percivile may be called I forget his Christian-name and Mr. Vaughan who is my Sollicitor But pray my Lord let me first have the Opinion of the Court whether they did prove the words that I am said to swear as they are laid in the Indictment L. C. J. Yes very fully we think so but the Jury are to try that that is a point of Fact but if you will you shall have our thoughts about it We think they are fully proved Cryer Here is Mr. Percivile Oates Pray swear him which was done L. C. J. What do you ask him Oates Mr. Percivile you examin'd the Conviction of Mr. Ireland pray put it in Is it a true Copy Percivile Yes it is Oates My Lord I desire that the Conviction and Attainder of Mr. Ireland may be read Mr. Att. Gen. It has been read already Oates My Lord I will not take up the Courts time any more than is necessary for my Defence L. C. J. Nay do as you will as long as you offer things pertinent and decent the Court will hear you with all patience and you may take what time is necessary for you Oates I thank your Lordship I design'd nothing at all of reflection upon the Court but a reflection on the Witnesses that came in against me C. of the Crown This is a Copy of the same Record that was before read Oates Well if that be allowed for Evidence for me I am contented to spare the time of the Court not to read it again but my Lord I offer this and desire to have Councel assign'd me to argue this point in Law that is Whether or no the Convictions and Attainders of Ireland Whitebread and the rest of them of a Treasonable Consult of the 24th of April 78. where it was resolv'd to murder the late King ought not to be taken as a sufficient Legal Proof of the Fact so long as those Attainders remain of force and whether the averment of that being false is to be received against those Records L. C. J. There is no difficulty in that at all in the world Mr. Oates Oates My Lord I do not know the Law and therefore I pray I may have Councel assign'd to argue that point L. C. J. There is no question in it God forbid if a Verdict be obtain'd by Perjury that that Verdict should protect the perjur'd party from being prosecuted for his false Oath There were no Justice in that nor is it an averment against a Record for this is not a Writ of Error in fact that will reverse it but the Record remains a good Record and unimpeached still But though it be a good Record yet it is lawful to say this Verdict was obtain'd upon the Testimony of such an one that forswore himself in that Testimony and for that particular Perjury he may surely be prosecuted Oates Is not that Attainder an uncontroulable Evidence of the Fact 'till it be revers'd L. C. J. Yes it is against the party attainted but if that Attainder was founded upon a Verdict that was obtain'd by Perjury God forbid but he should be told so that did perjure himself Oates Well my Lord if your Lordship rules that for Law then I will go on and I must now observe to the Jury in the opening the Evidence two things First That the Indictment upon which Ireland was try'd was found the 16th of December 78 and on the 17th of December the next day Ireland was try'd at the Old-Bailey and then I find this Indictment brought against me for Perjury is found at the Old-Bailey six years after the Fact by special Commission Now I submit it to your Lordships and the Juries consideration why the Presentment and the finding of this Bill for Perjury has been so long delay'd since it appears by the Evidence that the Witnesses that have been produc'd to prove the Perjury were either at the Trial of the Five Jesuits or might have been produced then and though they are not all the same persons yet they all bear the same Testimony that was then offered but were not credited and I hope when my Evidence is heard they will have the same Reputation with this Jury that they had with those others My Lord I must acquaint your Lordship and this Court That in this Indictment for which Mr. Ireland was convicted Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Fenwick did undergo part of the Tryal and did hear the whole body of the Evidence that the Witnesses testified against them but there being but one Witness against them two at that time which was my self Mr. Bedloe being then upon an Intrigue as your Lordship may remember my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs who was then the mouth of the Court did discharge the Jury of Mr. Whitebread and Mr. Fenwick and remanded them to Prison which Mr. Whitebread six months after did remark to the Court and urg'd it as a Plea for himself to be discharg'd but that being over-rul'd by the Court he was try'd Now he had six months time to provide himself with new fresh Evidence to asperse me and to endeavour to falsifie that Testimony I gave in against Whitebread and Fenwick when Ireland was try'd and so he knew what it was I must further observe to you my Lord and Gentlemen of the Jury That my Case is very hard that since the substance of my Testimony was with credit receiv'd and the Jury upon convicting them were acquainted That they had found an unexceptionable Verdict That all the Objections against the Evidence were then fully answer'd That there was nothing that the Prisoners had been wanting in to object which could be objected and that the thing was as clear as the Sun And yet after six years time
I must come to be called to an account for Perjury in my Testimony of that part of the Popish Plot with which the King and Kingdom four successive Parliaments all the Judges of the Land and three Juries were so well satisfied I shall therefore offer to your Lordship and the Juries consideration the unanimous Votes of three Houses of Commons I shall offer the Proceedings of the House of Lords that is the highest Judicature in the Kingdom I shall prove what I have open'd by the Testimony of several Noblemen that are here who will testifie this for me My Lord I shall prove that several attempts have been made to baffle this Testimony as that of the Murther of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey who took my Depositions the Contrivance of Paine Farewell and Thompson made in the year 81 or 82 I forget which I shall then produce Evidence that I was actually here in Town at the time in question and then upon the whole I shall submit it to your Lordship and the Jury But to prepare your Lordship and the Jury the better for my Evidence I would again urge the strangeness of this Prosecution and the hardship that is put upon me to be tryed for Perjury in an Evidence given six years ago and formerly very industriously though not succesfully endeavoured to be falsified by sixteen St. Omers Youths that were produced and examined before all the Judges in the Kingdom and that not only once at Whitebread's Trial but a second time at Langhorn's Trial in neither of which would the Jury believe them because of their Religion and Education and the persons under whom they were educated who were men of known Artifice Then my Lord I would this argue If that time my Evidence were true it must be true still for Truth is always the same and if it were then true and I can prove it to be true 't will be thought a hard thing without all doubt that this should be put upon me Then my Lord I would fain know from my Prosecutors Why this Indictment of Perjury has been deferred so long Why these Witnesses that come now to testifie this matter and could then have been brought did not come before to justifie at the Trials of these persons what they now say which might have sav'd their Lives if true and had been credited Then I shall offer to your Lordship what I desire You and the Jury would please to observe That though the King's Councel are now against me yet they are also against themselves for they were of Councel for the King in those Cases particularly Mr. Sollicitor at Langhorn's Trial Sir Robert Sawyer at Sir George Wakeman's Trial They were of Councel before for the truth of my Testimony they are now against it I only mention that and pass it over But this is not the first attempt that has been made to discredit the Testimony of the Popish Plot as I told you before Now can it be supposed that the love and desire of publick Justice can be the cause of this attempt to falsifie my Evidence after so many Trials in which it has been credited and confirmed Can any thing my Lord more plainly tend to destroy and subvert the methods of Justice to frighten all Witnesses from henceforth from ever appearing to discover any Conspiracies and does it not tend to expose and vilifie the known Understanding and Justice of the late King of ever Blessed Memory to arraign the Wisdom of His Privy-Council His Great and Noble Peers His Loyal Commons in three successive Parliaments His Twelve Judges and all those several Juries that were upon those Trials Had not those Juries sense had they not honesty had they no consciences And the Judges before whom those Conspirators were try'd were they men of no Justice nor Honour nor Integrity nor Conscience nor Understanding Shall those Juries be said to have drawn the innocent Blood of these men upon their own Heads and the Nation as if I were perjur'd it must be innocent Blood that was shed upon it L. C. J. No no that goes a great deal too far Mr. Oates The Jury have no share nor the Judges neither in that Blood which was shed by your Oath Mr. Justice Withens No That is your own most certainly and not theirs Oates But this I say makes it most plain The Evidence was then true and I hope I shall make it as evidently plain 't is as true now and I do not question but upon the Evidence I shall now give both Positive and Collateral the Jury will believe me and acquit me of this foul Accusation Pray my Lord be pleased to consider that when the Jury brought in Ireland guilty of the High-Treason of which he was accused and convicted him Pickering and Grove says my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs that then was to them Gentlemen you have done like very good Subjects and very good Christians that is like very good Protestants and now much good may do them with their Thirty Thousand Masses as I shall prove he did say Then I insist in the second place That Whitebread's Conviction does reinforce the Conviction of Ireland because of the attempt by the St. Omers Witnesses to have overthrown my Evidence But since I am attaqu'd again in the same kind by the violence of the Popish Interest and by the malice of my Popish Adversaries I am contented to stand the Test with all my heart And then to conclude all I shall shew the Court That 't is in vain for the Popish Party to expect and think to wipe their mouths with Solomon's Whore and say they have done no wickedness No I question not but thousands of Protestants in this Kingdom are fully satisfied and convinced of the Truth of the Popish Plot all and every part of it Now my Lord if you please to give me leave to proceed on in my Evidence I shall beg that these Records of Conviction may be read which are my first Proof of the Consult and I shall then bring Witnesses viva voce and shall make it appear that what I did swear at those Trials was true L. C. J. Not to intetrupt you in your Defence or the method you will take for it I would put you upon that which is proper for you to apply your self to because the question now is not Whether there was a Consult or Congregation of the Jesuits here upon the 24th of April 78 but the question that toucheth you is Whether you were present at any such Consult here in London the 24th of April 78 These Gentlemen some of them do say there was a Consult and others that they heard of it and believe there was such an one because it was usual to have a Triennal Congregation for some particular purposes But the question is Whether you have sufficient proof to prove your self to be here on the 24th of April 78 at which time it is agreed of all hands there was a Consult Oates But will your
Langhorn for I now speak of your Lordship in the third person Your several Crimes have been prov'd against you you have been fully heard and stand convicted of those Crimes you have been indicted for L. C. J. I believe I might say something to the same purpose as you have read now Oates I thank your Lordship for that acknowledgment L. C. J. Ay I 'll own any thing I did say Oates My Lord I have one passage more to urge and that was my Lord after the Jesuits had been convicted when the Jury brought in their Verdict and found Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gaven and Turner guilty your Lordship applying your self to the Jury said thus to them Gentlemen you of the Jury there has been a long Evidence given against the Prisoners at the Bar they were all indicted arraigned and tried for High-Treason depending upon several circumstances They can none of them say the Court refused to hear any thing they could say for themselves but upon a long Evidence and a patient hearing of the Defence they made they are found guilty and for any thing appears to us it is a just Verdict you have given L. C. J. I believe I might say something to that purpose too at that time and no doubt the Jury did as the Case then stood find an unexceptionable Verdict Oates There is another place my Lord that I would instance in for your Lordships Opinion of the Evidence of the Popish Plot and that is this Now my Lord I bring your Lordship as you were of Councel for the King at Mr. Colledge's Trial at Oxford the 17th of August 81 There you my now Lord Chief Justice directing your self to the Jury had this expression We come not here to trip up the heels of the Popish Plot by saying that any of them who suffer'd for it did die contrary to Law for if Mr. Dugdale was not a person fit to be believed or if the rest of the Judges who try'd Gaven were out in the Law then that man dy'd wrongfully for he had as much right to be try'd according to Law as any other person whatsoever This was your Lordships Opinion of the matter then and your Lordship as Councel for the King did there deliver the Law as well as Fact to the Jury If then they went against Law that would go to trip up the heels of the Popish Plot Mr. Justice Withens We are got into an endless Wood of sayings of people I know not where and when and when all is done 't is to no purpose Oates My Lord it is a part and a great part of my Defence to shew what credit has been given to the Evidence of the Popish Plot. L. C. J. Ay but what Councel says at the Bar or what Judges say in the Court of their Opinion is no Evidence of a Fact of which the Jury are Judges only Oates My Lord every Judge is upon his Oath and delivers his Judgment according to his Oath L. C. J. Not as to the Fact but only in points of Law so as to tell the Jury what the Law is if the Fact be so and so Oates My Lord it goes a great way with the Jury to have the Judges Opinion L. C. J. Mr. Oates deceive not your self all this you have insisted on hitherto has not been to the purpose nor is any sort of Evidence in this case and therefore do not run away with an opinion of this as Evidence a Judges Opinion is of value in points of Law that arise upon Facts found by Juries but are no Evidence of the Fact for Judges only do presume the Fact to be true as it is sound by the Jury and therefore say they Out of that Fact so found the point of Law arising is thus or thus Then in Case after a Jury has given a Verdict of the Fact a Judges Opinion of the Fact which may be perhaps contrary to the Verdict should be an Evidence as to that Fact that would be to overthrow and nullifie the Juries Verdict No that is not the Judges Province Surely you would not have a Judges private Opinion that Twelve men have found a Verdict against the Fact to be an Evidence as to that Fact No but admit the Fact to be so or so then the person convicted of the Fact ought to suffer so or so And by the same reason as this a Jury of honest Gentlemen here when I tell them here is a plain Fact either to convict you or to acquit you upon this Indictment are not bound to go by what I say in point of Fact but they are to go according to their own Oaths and according to the Evidence and Testimony of the Witnesses It is not my Opinion that is to weigh at all with them whether you are Guilty of this Perjury or are Innocent but the Evidence that is given here in Court Therefore what my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs said at any of those Trials or what I said or any other person that either was of Councel or a Judge on the Bench said as our Opinions is but our Opinions on the Fact as it occurred to our present apprehensions but is no Evidence nor binding to this Jury I must tell you there is no doubt but that those Juries did every one of them believe the Evidence you gave or they would not have convicted the Prisoners Do you think they would have found a Verdict against their own belief and being upon their Oaths to make true Deliverance between the King and the Prisoners have perjured Themselves to hang Others If they had so done they had committed Wilful Murther and the worst of Murthers too being under colour of the Process of Law but yet all this is no Evidence I do not discommend you for insinuating these things as introductive and preparative to what Evidence you have to offer but it is no Evidence one way or other Alack-aday how many times have we Causes here in Westminster-hall wherein we have Verdict against Verdict and yet no imputation to either of the Juries which might give different Verdicts upon different Grounds There was a notable Case lately of my Lady Ivies at this Bar We all thought upon the first Trial that she had as good a Title to the Land as could be all the Judges and the Councel went way I believe satisfied with the Juries Verdict for her But when the Cause came to be heard again we found all the Witnesses to prove her Title were guilty of notorious Porjury and the same persons which did believe before that she was in the Right and the Jury had done well when they heard the second Trial did believe she was in the wrong and accordingly the second Jury found it so and we believe that last Verdict to be good without any reflection on the Credit of the First Jury because the Evidence was as strong on her side then as it was afterwards against her In these Cases we give our Opinions
always according to the present Testimony that is before us Oates Then my Lord I offer this to your Consideration That those men that were thus charged by me with High-Treason were Priests and Jesuits most of them and particularly Mr. Ireland in whose Trial I am said to have committed this Perjury and you shall find him to have been by others proved a Priest and a Jesuit and actually engaged in a Design against the Life of the King If I then do prove that Ireland was engaged in a Design against the late Kings Life and was a Priest and a Jesuit I desire to know Whether this be not a Collateral Evidence to render me of credit sufficient and support my Testimony L. C. J. By no means upon this Indictment It 's true it may give some credit to your Testimony but is not of it self sufficient Nay I 'll go a great way further than that I will suppose that there was a Consult of the Jesuits upon the 24th of April 78 at the White-horse-Tavern in the Strand where those you say were present were all present Ireland and Whitebread and Pickering Grove and Fenwick were all there and that they did there come to a Resolution to destroy the late King Suppose all this to be true and yet you all this time are not innocent of the Fact imputed to you because you swore directly That You were there at that Consult too which you were not if these men swear true for then you were at St. Omers at that time and therefore give us some sort of Testimony to satisfie us that you were here and then you will set all right again If the Jesuits and Priests did Plot that is nothing to make your Evidence true if you swore that which you did not know of your own knowledge Oates Shall it be allow'd then that Ireland was a Jesuit and a Papist L. C. J. If it should that will be to very little purpose for your Turn Oates There is the Evidence of a Record for it my Lord but if that be not sufficient I can call Witnesses to prove it Pray call Mr. Miles Prance which was done but be did not appear Cryer He is not here Oates He was subpoena'd my Lord to come hither L. C. J. I can't help it if he will not come but I 'll tell you for methods sake not to prescribe to you but to tell you what I think may be more for your advantage than any of these Inferences that you are making If you did call two or three Witnesses to prove that you were in Town the 22d 23d or 24th of April it would be the best Defence you can make and would give the best answer to all that is objected against you Oates I will do that my Lord then and follow your directions L. C. J. Do so that is the best way Oates Cryer call Cicilia Mayo Cryer Here she is Oates Swear her which was done L. C. J. Well what do you ask this Witness Oates Pray Mrs. Mayo give my Lord and the Jury an account whether you did see me in London the latter-part of April or the beginning of May 78 for that is the question now before the Court. L. C. J. Ay what say you when did you see him in 78 Mrs. Mayo My Lord I saw him the latter-end of April He came to Sir Richard Barker's House where I did then live and afterwards he came again thither within a few days By this circumstance I remember it Sir Richard Barker my Master was sick all the month of April and in the Countrey only he came now and then home for a little while and went again Now Mr. Oates came there when he was absent and a young man that lived in the House came to me and told me There was Mr. Oates in the strangest disguise that ever was Says he I think he is turn'd Quaker No said I he is no Quaker for they wear no Perriwigs and I rebuk'd the young Man for saying so As for Mr. Oates I never saw his face before that time that I know of L. C. J. How do you know that to be Mr. Oates then Mrs. Mayo The Family knew him and they told me it was he That is the Gentleman there I speak now nothing but that which I testified seven years ago and it is all Truth and nothing but the Truth L. C. J. Ay no doubt of it thou swear'st nothing but the Truth Mrs. Maro My Lord he came three or four days afterwards again to the house and then the young man came to me and told me That Parson Oates was turn'd Jesuit and thereupon I said to him Good Lord why dost thou concern thy self with him canst not let him alone I lookt upon him and saw him at that time And when he came that time he went to Sir Richard's Ladies Sister who is now in Wales and coming to her said she Mr. Oates I hear you are turn'd Jesuit and we can have no Society with you now At last he stay'd to Dinner with them and stay'd most of the day there Then he comes the latter-end of May Whitsuntide was in May that year and I know he came before Whitsuntide by this token I speak of the second time of his coming Our Custom in the house was to Wash and Scowr before the time and I was sending for a Woman to come and help to Wash and Scowr and then he was walking in the Garden and the young man came and told me Oates was there he came into the Pantry to me Look said he he is come again and he is turn'd Jesuit by his disguise Why Benjamin said I what hast thou to do with the man canst not let him alone L. C. J. What was the Name of that young Man you speak of Mrs. Mayo Truly my Lord he is dead or he would have testified the same thing L. C. J. But what was his Name Mrs. Mayo Benjamin I can't tell his other Name L. C. J. Well go on Mrs. Mayo Said I to him Why dost thou scorn this man Prithee get out of the Room I am not able to hear it So he walk'd the space of an hour in the Garden L. C. J. Is Sir Richard Barker living Mrs. Mayo Yes my Lord he is but he is not well L. C. J. Was he at home when Oates was there Mrs. Mayo No my Lord I think not L. C. J. Who din'd with him do you say when he din'd there Mrs. Mayo My Ladies Sister Lord Ch. Justice What is her Name Mrs. Mayo Madam Thurrel Lord Ch. Justice And who else Mrs. Mayo And her Sons Lord Ch. Justice Where are they Mrs. Mayo They are both dead Lord Ch. Justice And who else was there Mrs. Mayo One Doctor Cocket Lord Ch. Justice Where is he Mrs. Mayo He is in Wales too my Lord. Lord Ch. Justice 'T is a great misfortune to have so many dead or so far remote Oates My Lord six years time makes a great alteration
a great many Witnesses Butler My Lord I tell your Lordship the Truth it was in May. L. C. J. But how dost thou come to take notice it was in the month of May so as to be able to swear it Butler My Lord I tell your Lordship my Lady was dead and the Escutcheon was over the door L. C. J. So it might be tho' he came in June or July I tell ye Butler My Master was sick at Putney at that time L. C. J. How long did he lie sick at Putney Butler He was sick there a fortnight my Lord. L. C. J. Then prethee when did thy Master go to Putney Butler I cannot tell to a day L. C. J. In what month was it that he went Butler It was the latter-end of April my Lord as I remember L. C. J. How long continu'd he sick at Putney Butler The matter of a fortnight L. C. J. Was not your Master sick when your Lady dy'd at Putney Butler No he was not there then L. C. J. When did he go to Putney say ye Butler He went not thither till the latter-end of April my Lord. L. C. J. And did he continue at Putney but a fortnight Butler Not at a time but he continu'd going and coming a quarter of a year L. C. J. But this was the first time of his going was it Butler Yes as I do remember Oates My Lord he is my Witness and I desire I may examine him L. C. J. Hold there Mr. Oates he is mine too all the Witnesses are mine to satisfie me in the truth of the Fact Oates And to satisfie the Jury too my Lord. L. C. J. Yes and to satisfie the Jury too but I must and will sift out the truth for both our satisfactions Oates My Lord it is now come the next month six years ago since the Evidence of this matter was first given by these Witnesses L. C. J. Then Mr. Oates I 'll come a little rounder to you and I 'll put you into a certain way of clearing this business I 'll tell you what you shall do You had a Lodging in Town as well as Diet and as well as you did eat at Doctor Barker's sometimes so you eat and lay sometimes elsewhere You were here in Town a great while together if your own assertions be true for you were from April till June in Town Now come and give us account by some Witnesses if you can where did you lodge at that time and where did you diet for it seems you had but one meal at Sir Richard Barker's Oates Is that the question Sir here in hand L. C. J. Ay indeed is it and the main one too Oates I beg your Lordships pardon if I mistake but I think that is not now in question for these St. Omers men do swear That I was all April and May at St. Omers Then if I do prove that in April and May I was not at St. Omers but here in London it is argument good enough against them that their Evidence is false And indeed can your Lordship or the Jury expect that I being then engag'd among for the Papists afterwards an Evidence against them to discover their Treasons can bring any of them to testifie for me now No they will as certainly forswear themselves as these young Fellows have all done L. C. J. Let me ask you a shorter question Did you always lie in a Papist house all the two months you say you were here Oates My Lord I lay at several houses L. C. J. Tell me the names of those houses or any of them Oates It is not to the point in question here my Lord. L. C. Justice Yes it is very much But I perceive it is a Secret and let any body judge why Oates My Lord They that have by the principles of their Religion Liberty to affirm or deny any thing and can have dispensations for the violations of Oaths and Sacraments certainly are not to be admitted as witnesses in such a case as this L. C. Justice Talk not to me of Dispensations and I know not what I speak from a plain demonstrative Proof can it be believed that you should be here in England so long and as they say publickly and no person living see you that we can hear of but an Old Woman that never saw you nor knew you before and a Coachman that tells a wild story without reason if you will not tell me where you lay can you tell me where you did eat all that time Oates I can tell where I did lye that time L. C. J. Do so then Let us hear it that will be your best defence Oates Is that the point My Lord in question L. C. J. Ay upon my word is it the main point in this Case Oates If it should go upon that foot my Lord it is impossible for me now to prove it for 't is well known I lay sometimes with Mr. Whitebread and sometimes with Mr. Mico neither of which can I have to testify for me and besides I must insist upon it these things were in question at Whitebreads Trial nor do I believe that Mr. Whitebread if askt at his death would have justified and stood by it that I was not here then L. C. J. Well This I must certainly say I cannot help it but it will stick with me till better answered I can never be satisfied that if you were here so long there should no better evidence be produc'd to prove you here Oates My Lord nor can I help your dissatisfaction but I am to satisfy all that hear me this day that it is a very hard Case that is put upon me I have taken the most effectual course that I could to provide for Evidence to make my defence and I think by your Lordships good leave those that I have produc'd do prove me here in Town in April and May 78. And if your Lordship has done with this Witness I 'le call another L. C. J. Well go on as you will I tell you what sticks with me Oates Pray call Mr. Philip Page Mr. Soll. Gen. Hold Sir a little I would ask these Witnesses a few Questions before they go away You Butler let me ask you pray the first time you saw Mr. Oates at the time you speak of was it in April or May L. C. J. He swore it was the beginning of May. Butler To the best of my knowledge it was the beginning of May. Mr. Soll. Gen. Who did you tell first that there was Mr. Oates at that time Butler I told it Mrs. Mayo Mr. Soll. Gen. Consider Friend what you say now you are upon your Oath and consider what you said at the former Trial when you were upon your Oath too Oates Pray My Lord I desire my Witnesses may be Examined without Threatnings L. C. Justice It is not a Threatning it is an Admonition not to go beyond the Truth Mr. Soll. Gen. Be sure you be in the Right in
L. C. J. You must not ask questions in that manner It is properest for you to propose your questions to the Court and they will ask the Witnesses Oates Then I will not ask him but propose it to your Lordship L. C. J. Ay propose what questions you please and if they are fair I 'le ask them Oates Then my Lord I would ask Mr. Walker this question when 't was he met me with a disguise in what year and what month Mr. Walker My Lord I have been interrogated in former times upon this point six or seven years ago and I do confess I did see the man and met him between St. Martins-lane and Leicester-fields and truly my Lord I think I may say it was my unhappiness to meet with him for I have had a great deal of trouble by it since Subpoena upon Subpoena trouble after trouble that I am even weary of it for I am an old man but I do say I did meet him at that end of the Town between St. Martins-lane and Leicester-fields in a strange disguise he was just like a Vagrant a very Rascal and that 's true I believe my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Did you know him before Mr. Walker Yes or I had not known him then L. C. J. When was this Mr. Walker My Lord I 'le tell you my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs when I was at the Old-Bayly asked me if I knew what time it was I saw him thus said I my Lord 't is almost a year and a half since I saw him and I being an old man little thought it worth the while to lay up the particular time in my Memory but I 'le cast about in my thoughts to make the best conjecture I can for now I will not be upon my Oath it being but conjecture L. C. J. But now you are upon your Oath remember that man Mr. Walker My Lord I am speaking what I said to the Court at that time L. C. J. Pray do not tell us an old tedious Story of the questions and answers in the Old-Bayly but mind what is said to you here my question is now what time you saw Oates disguised between St. Martins-lane and Leicester-fields as you say you did Mr. Walker My Lord I cannot prescribe the time but I 'le guess as near as I can with the best probability and that is upon this circumstance when I went forward into Leicester-fields in the Court before the House I saw the Elm-Trees budded forth as big as an Hazle-Nut so that I did conjecture by that Token it might be between Lady-day the latter end of April that was the time as near as I could guess L. C. J. In what year was that Mr. Walker I cannot very well tell what year it was L. C. J. Was it in 77 or 78. Mr. Walker Truly my Lord I never thought it worth so much taking notice of to fix the particular time in my memory Oates Whether was it that year the Plot was discovered or the Michaelmass following Mr. Walker I cannot tell when the Plot was discovered or whether it be found out yet or no Oates But was it the year before you were Examined Mr. Walker To aswer you Mr. Oates when it was exactly I cannot say truly I would give you the best satisfaction I could and do you as much right as I would do my self I think if that time when I was Examined were in 77 or 78 it was near a year and a quarter before I did see you L. C. J. Well what can you make of this Oates 'T is not to be supposed he is a very willing Witness but yet he says 't was a year and a quarter before the Trial in which he was Examined which must be in April 78. L. C. J. I would know this question of you were you present at the Old-Bayley when the Five Jesuits were Tried Mr. Walker I was there my Lord. L. C. J. Were you at any Trial but one Mr. Walker I was not Examin'd at any time but one L. C. J. Have you any more questions to ask him Mr. Walker My Lord Chief Justice that then was did ask me if I knew any of the Prisoners at the Bar and I look'd upon all of them and I said I knew not either of them Oates Pray my Lord ask him whether he was not produc'd when the St. Omers Men were produc'd and gave his evidence as to my being in Town at that time L. C. J. He hears the Question let him answer it Mr. Walker I am not able to answer you because you put several Questions together but this I say I was never Examined but once though I have been Subpoena'd often to my great torment and trouble Oates Did you give Evidence at that Trial that you saw me in April 78 Mr. Walker I testified that I saw you and by such circumstances it must be about such a time as well as I could suggest but I could not nor cannot speak positively Oates Now my Lord I shall go on to another part of my Evidence and call some other Witnesses and first of all I come to Mr. Serjeant Maynard and I desire he may be sworn Which was done L. C. J. What do you ask my Brother Maynard Oates I call Mr. Serjeant Maynard to give an account of the Proceedings of the House of Commons upon my Discovery of the Popish Plot. L. C. J. We will not admit that to be any Evidence at all nor can it be by Law Oates My Lord Mr. Serjeant Maynard was one of the Committee of the House of Commons that managed the Impeachment and can give an account of the Evidence and Records that were produc'd at the Trial of the late Viscount Stafford Mr. Serj. Maynard I know nothing truly nor can remember any thing of it now L. C. J. He says he remembers nothing Mr. Serj. Maynard If Mr. Oates had told me before hand when he Subpoena'd me what time and what particular things he would have Examin'd me to probably if I was there I have Notes that I then took but I can never swear to my Memory for any Cause so long ago Oates My Lord I am very sorry Mr. Serjeant Maynard's Age should so impair his Memory L. C. J. I dare say you are not more sorry than he is for his Age. Oates Well my Lord I cannot help it Then I desire Mr. Blayney may be ak'd whether he has his Notes of my Lord Stafford's Trial. Mr. Blayney No my Lord I have them not here Mr. Oates by his Ticket of his Subpoena desir'd only the Notes of Ireland Whitebread and Langhorns Trial. L. C. J. But I must tell you Mr. Oates if those Notes were here they could be of no use to you without the Record of my Lord Stafford's Attainder if you ask any thing upon another Trial you must produce first the Record of that Trial and then you may examine to what was given in Evidence at the Trial. Oates My Lord it is
of Record in the House of Lords L. C. J. But that we are not to take notice of without the Record be brought in Evidence before us we must go according to the course of Law in all Cases Oates Then my Lord I must betake my self to another part of my defence and that is to prove the frequent attempts made to baffle the Discovery of this Popish Plot and to stifle the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey and to fling it upon a Protestant Peer L. C. J. But that is no Evidence neither Mr. Just Holloway Surely that is very Collateral Evidence L. C. J. Nay it is no Evidence at all in this Case we must not admit of any such Evidence to be given Oates Good my Lord if this had not been true which was sworn by Witnesses that had discovered the Plot why should these Men appear to suborn Witnesses and they have been Convicted of Subornation and endeavouring to baffle the Discovery particularly as to Justice Godfrey's Death L. C. J. Mr. Oates I must keep you to Evidence that is proper we are upon our Oaths to go according to Law and the Jury are upon their Oaths to Try this Cause according to their Evidence and we are bound to give them this advice in point of Law that nothing must weigh or have any consideration with them that you offer if it be not legal and proper Evidence if you can say and prove that any of the Witnesses that have been produc'd this day against you have been tamper'd with or that they have tamper'd with any of the former Evidence that is a good Evidence against them but it must not be by any means admitted that the time of the Court be taken up or the Jury enveigled by that which has not a natural tendency to the business before us Oates But if your Lordship please this Consult in April 78. was discovered to the House of Commons among the other parts of the Discovery of the Treasons of several Noble Men and Gentlemen now upon the whole discovery of the Plot I would desire that I might give in proof the Proceedings of the House of Commons L. C. J. No no you cannot Oates Pray my Lord is not the Journal of the House of Commons Evidence L. C. J. No we say it is not at all Oates Is that the Opinion of the whole Court my Lord L. C. J. Yes undoubtedly there is no question of it Oates Is any Record of the House of Lords Evidence L. C. J. Yes I tell you it is and that because it is a Record but there is a vast difference between the Records of the House of Lords and the Journals of the House of Commons Oates The Journals have been delivered in as Evidence before now L. C. J. I cannot tell what they have been but I am sure they ought not to be and whatever they have been elsewhere they cannot be here and I 'le tell you a plain reason for it because they have not so much power in the House of Commons as to give an Oath but the House of Peers is a Court of Record and therefore their Proceedings are Evidence as the Proceedings of the Kings Bench here or any other Court of Record are Oates Then my Lord if that part of my Evidence be over-rul'd before I come to summ up my Evidence I desire to offer this thing My Lord I can produce several Members of the House of Commons in the several Parliaments that can remember how they proceeded against the Lords in the Tower and the Popish Traitors upon my Discovery and what credit I had in the House of Commons Will that be Evidence pray my Lord L. C. J. No it will not if you will produce any one that you told this to before the publick Discovery that may be Evidence such as it is and is often allow'd but what the House of Commons did upon the Discovery that 's not any Evidence at all Oates Then my Lord suppose I can prove that I gave an Early and Timely account to any of the House of Lords of this Conspiracy and did acquaint them with the Consult in April as part of it I desire to know whether in producing any of those Lords I shall give that which is Evidence L. C. J. Call whom you will that you told any thing to that is a sort of Evidence I tell you Oates Then I call my Lord of Devonshire L. C. J. Here is my Lord of Devonshire Oates My Lord I beg your pardon for the trouble I put your Lordship to but your Lordship sees the necessity of it it is for the justification of the Truth to which I will give my Blood for a Seal if I be call'd to it L. C. J. My Lord of Devonshire your Lordship must be sworn which was done Oates Will your Lordship be pleased to acquaint the Court and the Jury your Lordship being at that time a Member of the Commons House what an account I gave there of this particular Consult to keep to that point that is here in question before the Court this day and with what credit I was received in all these Parliaments for my Credit and the Credit of the Parliament is now in question E. of Devonshire My Lord all I can say to it is this you Mr. Oates gave a long account of a Consult and Conspiracy among the Jesuits but I cannot remember any particular it is so long ago L. C. J. Every Body knows this you gave a long Narrative into the House of Commons and House of Lords too Oates Ay and it was a true one but my Lord of Devonshire I desire your Lordship would be pleased to give the Court and the Jury an account with what credit I was received in those Three Parliaments your Lordship sat as Member in E. of Devonshire I remember that the two Westminster Parliaments after the long Parliament were so satisfied with the Discovery that they passed a Vote in the House of Commons L. C. J. The Votes of the House of Commons are no Evidence at all Oates They show what opinion the Parliament was of L. C. J. Many Votes that have been made of late I hope will neither be Evidence for nor put in practice again E. of Devonshire My Lord it is well known to all the World the Vote I speak of L. C. J. Nay my Lord I speak not to your Lordship for we all know those Votes that I speak of were not according to your Lordships mind But we only say thus in General that because the House of Commons cannot give an Oath therefore what is done there is not an Evidence here or in any Court of Record Oates But my Lord that I must urge I do perceive that in the time of Parliament and during the Sitting of the House of Commons Votes have been brought in as Barrs to the Proceedings of Inferior Courts and this Court does not look upon it self as Superior to the Great Court of
Parliament and then if they may be brought L. C. J. Which they cannot be nor never were nor I am sure ought to be nor I hope never will be as long as there is any Justice in the Nation Oates But my Lord you will allow the Records of the House of Lords to be Evidence L. C. J. Yes I tell you I will and for that reason because they are Records out of a Court of Record an Order of Court Baron is no Evidence because it is no Court of Record but a Judgment of a Court Leet is Evidence because it is a Court of Record and there 's the difference Oates My Lord I call in the next place my Lord of Anglesey if he be in Court L. C. J. No he is not here Oates Pray will you give me leave to call my Lord Keeper then L. C. J. See in the Court of Chancery whether my Lord Keeper be there Cryer No my Lord he is not he is gone Oates He was Subpoena'd my Lord and I can have Affidavit made of it he was a material Witness for me L. C. J. I cannot help it he is not here Oates Pray call my Lord Chief Baron L. C. J. Go one of you into the Exchequer and see if my Lord Chief Baron be there and tell him Mr. Oates calls for him as a Witness Oates And Mr. Justice Levins Cryer The Courts are both up and they are all gone Oates They were subpoena'd I am sure to be here well go and see whether they are there or no. L. C. J. In the mean time do you call some other Witnesses Oates I call my Lord Chief Justice Jones L. C. J. The Cryer is gone to look for the Judges Oates Then I call my Lord of Clare L. C. J. Here is my Lord of Clare E. of Clare My Lord I can remember nothing it is so long time ago L. C. J. My Lord of Clare says he can remember nothing Oates I only call my Lord of Clare to ask him one question which I hope his Lordship will remember L. C. J. Swear my Lord of Clare which was done well what is it you ask my Lord Oates My Lord of Clare the question I would ask your Lordship is with what credit I was received in the House of Lords upon my Discovery and that you will to the best of your memory give my Lord and the Jury an account how the House of Peers proceeded upon my Evidence E. of Clare Truly my Lord I cannot give any account it is of so long standing Oates It is a great while ago my Lord and therefore it is hard measure that I must be brought to this Tryal so long after L. C. J. If it be a long time we cannot help it we cannot force People to prosecute sooner than they will do Oates I desire Mr. Baron Gregory may be called L. C. J. He is not here but see and call my Brother Gregory I hear they are all together in the Treasury Oates Then I call Mr. Williams that was Speaker in the House of Commons L. C. J. Here is Mr. Williams he was sworn Oates I desire Mr. Williams because you were then Speaker of the Commons House of Parliament you would be pleased to tell what you remember concerning the credit I received in that Parliament in which you were Speaker upon the Discovery I made of the Popish Plot and particularly as to the Consult of Jesuits to kill the late King in the month of April 78. Mr. Williams My Lord my Memory is never very good but especially in a case that is at such a distance of time and which consists of so many Particulars as this I mean Mr. Oates Discovery But this my Lord I do remember he was examin'd at the Bar of the House of Commons and gave a long account but it is more than any man can do to tell every Particular that is said in that House L. C. J. Was he upon his Oath Mr. Williams at the Bar of the House of Commons Mr. Williams My Lord he was as other men are that are examin'd in the House of Commons L. C. J. We all know it could not be upon Oath they have not Power to give an Oath Mr. Williams What Reputation he was of I cannot say so well as what their Proceedings did testifie L. C. J. Nor in case they did believe him never so much is it any thing to this question which is whether he swore true or false at Ireland's Tryal Mr. Wiliams My Lord when a Person is brought to the Barr there to be a Witness in any Cause every body is silent and the Witness is heard what he has to say and so was Mr. Oates when he had done he withdrew but what the Opinion of the House was upon it I must submit to their Votes and Resolutions L. C. J. Which you know Mr. Williams are no Evidence Mr. Williams That I must submit to the Court. Oates I desire my Lord of Clare would be pleased to tell if he remembers what Credit the House of Lords gave me upon my Discovery E. of Clare My Lord I do not well hear Mr. Oates question Oates My Lord my question is this when I was brought to the Bar of the Lords House whether I did not receive the thanks of the Lords House for my Discovery E. of Clare Truly Sir at the beginning of the Discovery of the Popish Plot I was not in Town nor in the House L. C. J. But now Mr. Oates I hope you are satisfied by the answer that is given by your own Witness that what is done in the House of Commons is no Evidence and I would have you remember that is the Reason of it because they are no Court of Record and because they cannot so much as give an Oath Oates My Lord I see my Lord of Huntingdon is here and tho I did not Subpoena his Lordship nor design'd to have troubled him yet being here I desire his Lordship would give the Court an account what Credit I had in the House of Lords upon my Discovery L. C. J. Swear my Lord of Huntingdon which was done E. of Huntingdon I do believe my Lord Mr. Oates Discovery found a good reception in the House of Lords but it was grounded upon the opinion that what he said was true and that he was an honest man for so the House then accounted him to be and upon this it was their Lordships gave credit to his Testimony and indeed had the matter been true it was of high Importance to have it thorougly examined But since that time it being apparent there were so many and great Contradictions Falsities and Perjuries in his Evidence upon which so much innocent blood hath been shed I believe a great many Persons who were concerned in the Trials of those unfortunate men are heartily afflicted and sorry for their share in it And I do believe most of the House of Peers have altered their opinion as to this
it may be read L. C. J. But surely you would not allow an answer to be Evidence unless you prove it to be sworn Mr. Att. Gen. Truly my Lord I always took it that we need not come to prove a man was actually sworn to his answer but if it be once enter'd upon Record in Chancery it proves it self L. C. J. It is true Mr. Attorney if it appears upon Record that the answer was sworn Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord if this Journal of the House of Lords is a Record then that which is entred into it is a Record 't is a thing recorded as a Deed inrolled is and proves it self L. C. J. Mr. Attorney either we mistake one another or we do not differ in opinion if you could make it appear that Oates brought this thing in the House of Lords and deliver'd it upon Oath that were Evidence otherwise I cannot see how you can make Evidence of it Mr. Att. Gen. I always thought my Lord that a Record out of a Court of Record would have that Credit in another Court of Record as to be read L. C. J. My Lord Bridgewater tells you it was deliver'd to them by the Clerk of the Parliament Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord let the Clerk read what is at the end thereof C. Crown Reads Hitherto examin'd the third of December 1678. The Narrative and Examinations of Titus Oates being first inserted according to the Order of the House of the 21. of November last by us Anglesey c. Mr. Att. Gen. Pray read the Order of the 21. of November C. Crown Reads Die Jovis 21. of November 1678. Upon Report made by the Earl of Bridgewater from the Lords Sub-Committees for the examining the Journal of this House That upon Examination thereof their Lordships find that the Narrative made upon Oath by Titus Oates at the Barr on the 31. of October last of the Horrid Design against His Majesties Person and Government is only mentioned in the Journal but not enter'd at large in such manner as he then related it and that therefore their Lordships desire the direction of the House concerning this matter it is thereupon ordered that the said Narrative made by Titus Oates on the said 31. of October shall be enter'd at large and inserted in the Journal as the part of the business of that day L. C. J. Now you make it Evidence for it appears that he was sworn and gave his Narrative upon Oath Mr. Att. Gen. Then now my Lord I hope we may read it L. C. J. Ay read it Mr. Att. Gen. Read the 54. Article C. Crown Reads This is the Narrative of Titus Oates the 54. Article That one Matthew Medborne a Player in the Dukes Theatre one Mr. Penny Mr. Mannock Mr. Sharpe and Mr. Seddon and one William Smith a School-master at Islington and one Edward Everard and others meeting in a Club on Thursday nights and Sunday nights with one Jones a Priest and one Keymash within mentioned and all these Persons are imployed by the Jesuits to vilifie the House of Commons and to go about the City to incense the People against them and against the Bishops of the Nation and they deliver this Treasonable Position That the Commons assembled in Parliament are the Devils Representatives and not the Nations with treasonable and detestable words the Deponent did hear at the said Club which is kept at Fuller's Rents near Grey's Inn. And in the month of August the Deponent was ordered by the Jesuits in London to give the said Persons great Respects and in their names to thank the Club for their faithfulness to them in that particular Mr. Att. Gen. Thus you see what he had sworn against him now we shall shew how he dealt with him Is that Mr. Oates his hand Witness It is yes I believe it is Mr. Att. Gen. I believe he will hardly deny it himself Oates Let me see it I pray you Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. Show it him which was done is that your hand Oates I cannot say it is my hand nor do I believe it to be so L. C. J. He does not own it to be his hand Oates I do not say it is not my hand but I do not remember any thing of it Mr. Att. Gen. Read it Sir pray you L. C. J. What is it you would read Mr. Att. Gen. A Certificate under Oates hand of Mr. Smith's honesty not three days before the Tryal of the Five Jesuits L. C. J. Read it let us hear what it is These are to certifie that William Smith is no Papist and that he is upon good Service at this time for his King and Country of which I hope those that are Inquirers after Recusants will take notice Witness my Hand this Third day of June 1679. Titus Oates L. C. J. What harm is there in all this I must needs say I cannot comprehend what you would make of it Mr. Att. Gen. This Protection was given Mr. Smith by Mr. Oates three days before the Tryal but after he had sworn him into the Plot in his Narrative L. C. J. I see not any Plot for my part that he swore him into unless you mean Treason against the House of Commons for that is the Accusation he made that he spoke such words of the House of Commons Pray read it again Which was done L. C. J. Well and what is all this Mr. Att. Gen. Is not this a swearing him into the Plot L. C. J. No not that I see it only gives an ill Character of him Mr. Att. Gen. But he is accused as a Confederate with the Priests and Jesuits Oates Did I charge him Mr. Attorney with having any hand in the Plot against the Kings Life Mr. Att. Gen. I only offer this as an Evidence that there was tampering L. C. J. You call it a being in the Plot I see no such thing Mr. Att. Gen. And then he comes and gives him an acquittal under his hand and then produces him as a Witness L. C. J. There can be no great matter in this Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. Then my Lord we 'l call Mr. Smith himself and he will tell you how Oates drew him in Swear Mr. Smith which was done pray acquaint my Lord and the Jury how you came to swear at the former Tryal by whom you were perswaded and how you varied from the Truth L. C. J. That is very nauseous and fulsome Mr. Attorney methinks in a Court of Justice Mr. Att. Gen. What did you swear in the former Tryal and was that true you did swear then L. C. J. I tell you truly Mr. Attorney it looks rank and fulsome if he did forswear himself why should he ever be a Witness again Mr. Att. Gen. 'T is not the first time by twenty that such Evidences has been given L. C. J. I hate such Presidents in all times let it be done never so often Shall I believe a Villain one word he says when he owns
that he forswore himself Mr. Att. Gen. Pray my Lord give me leave I must pursue my Masters Interest Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord it was ever Testimony allow'd to be given to detect a Subornation L. C. J. I am sure 't is not fit to be allow'd at any time If he did forswear himself in a Court of Record in my opinion he is not to be receiv'd as a Witness any more Mr. Sol. Gen. We do only make this use of him to prove that Oates did suborn him L. C. J. Pray call some other Witnesses if you have them to contradict him but do not offer to bring a man to swear that he did forswear himself before Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord we give Evidence here of a mans being produc'd by Oates to swear he was here in May 78. and he did make such an Oath now I hope with Submission my Lord it is Evidence to contradict that Oath if we can prove that he has confessed he was forsworn and mistaken in his Oath such Evidence perhaps will be of little value yet Evidence it is L. C. J. Make it what you will Mr. Sollicitor I think it is of no value at all nor to be admitted for the man to come and swear it himself prove what you can by others Mr. Soll. Gen. Surely my Lord this Confession of his to others is of less value than when we bring the Man himself to confess his fault that Man himself coming and owning the thing that he was mistaken with great sorrow for it sure is a good Evidence L. C. Justice Argue the matter as long as you will Mr. Sollicitor you will never convince me But that he that has once forsworn himself ought not to be a witness after that in any Case whatsoever If any man tell me otherwise till Dooms-day I cannot be convinc'd of it Mr. Soll. Gen. I go but to ask him this Question Whether or no what he swore were true L. C. Justice Mr. Sollicitor we are all of another Opinion that it is not Evidence fit to be given Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord I must submit it to you L. C. Justice I tell you Mr. Sollicitor if you should call him to know what it was he swore and it does appear by any Evidence or by his own Confession that it was false you ought not to believe what he says even in that matter And I think truly for examples sake it ought not by any means to be admitted Mr. Sollicitor My Lord I must submit it to you but then I humbly conceive it will be in very many Cases impossible to detect a Perjury or Subornation if the Party suborn'd cannot be admitted to be a witness L. C. Justice What good will the admitting him to be a witness do for either what he swore then or what he swears now is false and if he once swears false Can you say he is to be believed Mr. North. My Lord If a man come and swear L. C. Justice Look ye Sir you have our Opinion it has been always the Practice heretofore That when the Court have delivered their Opinion the Council should sit down and not dispute it any further Mr. Att. Gen. Then we will go about the Business of Clay and for that we will call Lawrence Davenport L. C. Justice 'T is certainly against the Law to admit a man that has once forsworn himself to be a witness again in any Cause Mr. Att Gen. Swear Lawrence Davenport which was done 'Pray' give my Lord and the Jury an account how Clay came to be a witness and by whom he was wrought upon to be so Davenport May it please you my Lords and Gentlemen of the Jury Mr. Oates came to the Prison I being then a Prisoner at that time in the Gate-house at Westminster my self and having no other Employment I had the government and care of some of the Prisoners for a livelihood being in custody and at that time Mr. Oates as I said when old Clay was in Prison did come there to visit this Clay at several times and coming there to visit this Clay up stairs he went to his Chamber and desired to speak with him and I did desire your Worship Mr. Oates that you would go in to him and you did go into his Chamber and there these words you did speak to him before the Trial of the five Jesuits That if he did not swear what you put to him he should be prosecuted as a Priest which you did believe he would dye for L. C. Justice What is this man's name Mr. Att. Gen. Lawrence Davenport L. C. Justice Did you hear him say so Davenport Yes my Lord upon my Oath I did hear him say so and Sir William Waller was with him and then he replied and said with a Proviso That you would give him his Gold and Silver that was taken from him being then a Prisoner under My keeping in the Gate-house and wanting his money if you would do that he said he had been a Rogue before and he could not say what he might do L. C. Justice Now make it appear that this Clay was sworn at the Trial. Davenport My Lord afterwards I was Keeper to him under the other Keeper and he had a Keeper to wait on him to Newgate Sessions at the Old Baily wherefore this Gentleman that is standing there Mr. Oates comes to us says he Do not you trouble your self about this Prisoner let him alone with me I 'll see him at home again and then the Jesuits there did take their Trials how it was I cannot tell for we could not come into the Court afterwards they went to the Fountain Tavern by Newgate to Dinner and Mr. Oates and he went to Dinner together we were below in the house waiting there till it was Night and still thinking that he should come down again but away went he home and left us in the lurch but indeed he did come home to the Prison very honestly and civilly because he was civilly guarded Mr. Att. Gen. Now my Lord we 'll give you an account That the next morning after this Discourse betwixt Oates and Clay at the Gate-house this witness told it to another that was a Prisoner there then too Oates My Lord I would ask this man a Question Whether he had the sole keeping of Clay without any other Keeper with him Davenport There was no Keeper in the house but my self where he lay which was in Margaret's Lane not in the Prison but in the House Oates 'Pray' ask this Gentleman why he did not come in and testifie this Discourse he speaks of when Clay was a witness Davenport I was not by when he was sworn Oates Did he not know he was a witness L. C. Justice No he says he did not go into the Court with you he was not suffered to go in Davenport My Lord I am a poor Trandesman and know nothing what belongs to the Law Mr. Att. Gen. Come 'pray' swear this man Mr. which
was done Mr. Soll. Gen. 'Pray' tell what Davenport told you and when Mr. He came and told me the next day in the Prison where I was then what Mr. Oates and Sir William Waller had been tampering with Clay about to make him swear for Mr. Oates L. C. Justice What were the words he told you they said to him Mr. It was That he must swear That Mr. Oates dined at Mr. Howard's house such a day of the month and Mr. Clay did say he knew nothing of the matter but then Sir William Waller and Mr. Oates did reply to him again here 's your Choice if you will not swear this we will try you for a Priest and hang you and so Clay agreed if he might have his money restored that was taken from him he had been a Rogue before and did not know what he might do Oates Is this Evidence my Lord L. C. Justice Yes doubtless very good Evidence Oates 'T is only upon heresay that he speaks L. C. Justice But that establishes the other man's Testimony this being told the very next morning for he would not conceal it it seems Mr. Att. Gen. Now that Clay was sworn at the Trial you admit Mr. Oates Oates Yes I do he was so Mr. Att. Gen. Then I think here 's a plain proof of a Subornation L. C. Justice You must observe how they apply this Evidence They say You are an ill man not only as to swearing false your self but as to suborning others to swear more than they knew and particularly as to this Clay that you and Sir William Waller did threaten him you would hang him up for a Priest if he would not swear as you would have him and by your Threatnings he was prevailed with to swear Oates Is Mr. Clay in Court my Lord L. C. Justice Nay I cannot tell where he is Mr. Att. Gen. He was your witness Mr. Oates we expected you would have brought him Oates I cannot tell where to find him my Lord now truly Mr. Att. Gen. Call Mr. Howard Cryer Here he is Sir he is sworn L. C. Justice Mr. Aâ—torney you have not proved what he swore Mr. Att. Gen. We are now about it my Lord. Mr. Howard 'pray' were you at the Trial of the five Jesuits or at Langhorn's when Clay was sworn as a witness for Dr. Oates Mr. Howard Yes I was at Langhorn's Trial my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. What was the Effect of his Testimony there Mr. Howard He did swear That he was with me and Mr. Oates at dinner at my House in May in the year 77. Mr. Att. Gen. 77 did he say or 78 Mr. Howard Stay I will look upon my Notes I took at that time L. C. Justice Ay do so to refresh your memory Mr. Howard Mr. Howard It was May 78 my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. 'Pray' thus Sir Was he then at your house with Oates Mr. Howard No he was not there in May Mr. Clay was with me and Mr. Oates both together in July 78. after the fourth day of July Mr. Att. Gen. That is after the time he came to London from St. Omers L. C. Justice You say very well have you any more witnesses Mr. Soll. Gen. My Lord we must desire that the 28th Article of Mr. Oates's Narrative may be read O. Grown Reads That in order to this Command on April 24.78 Father Warren Rector of Leidge Sir Thomas Preston Baronet Father Marsh Rector of Gaunt and Father Williams Rector of Watton and Master of the Novices Sir John Warner Baronet Richard Ashby Rector of the English Seminary at St. Omers being sick of the Gout could not go But out of the said Seminary went Sir Robert Bret Baronet Father Pool Edward Nevile There were in all with the Deponent nine or ien who met in London in Consult with Thomas Whitebread Father Harcourt Senior and Father Harcourt Junior John Fenwick Basil Langworth William Morgan John Keimes Father Lovel Father Ireland Father Blundel Richard Strange Father Mico Father Grey and others to the Number of fifty Jesuits met at the White-Horse-Tavern in the Strand where they plotted their Designs for the Society and ordered Father John Carey who was also there to go Procurator for Rome at which Consult thus held in the Month of May the Deponent was present to attend the Consultors and deliver their Concernes from Company to Company and then a little after they left the White-Horse-Tavern and divided themselves into several Clubs and Companies some met at Mr. Saunders House in Wild Street others at Mr. Fenwick 's at Aireses his House in Drury Lane others at Mr. Ireland 's in Russel Street near Covent-Garden and in other places All which though in several Companies five or six in a Company did contrive the death of the King and in order to which there were Papers sent from Company to Company which the Deponent did carry cortaining their opinions of the timing their Business and the manner how it was to be done and within three or four days after the Deponent went to St. Omers with the Fathers that came from the other side of the water Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we produce this to overthrow their Witnesses That speak of his being here a week in May. Now Mr. Oates in this Narrative says That the Consult ended the twenty fourth of April and that three or four days after he returned back to St. Omers L. C. Justice 'Pray' read that over again where the names are for the Witnesses for the King swear That Mr. Williams came over from St. Omers but he here says he did not I think It was read again L. C. Justice I thought it had been otherwise 'T is darkly penn'd Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord I my self heard him declare in many Trials here and at the Old Baily That all was finished in that day and he went away in a few days Oates Mr. Attorney you are mistaken For if you please my Lord the Consult was not dissolved in six or eight days though they were not sitting or acting every day Mr. Att. Gen. 'T is not a difference of six or eight days that is contended for but it is Either Mr Oates or his Witnesses do not swear true If it were as Mr. Oates says That six or eight days were allow'd after the twenty fourth of April then it must be the fifth or sixth of May that he went to St. Omers and then his Witnesses that say he was here the Latter end of May can not swear true And our Witnesses say he was all April and May until the twenty third of June at St. Omers Oates My Lord Mr. Attorney does not apprehend the Evidence aright L. C. Justice Well you may make your Remarks by and by and set him right if you can Mr. Att. Gen. We have done our Evidence my Lord. L. C. Justice Have you any more Witnesses Mr. Oates Oates No my Lord I have not L. C. Justice Then you must conclude and say what you have to say to
the Jury Oates My Lord I have one thing more and that is A Copy of the Record out of the House of Lords It is in the Journal the twenty fifth of March seventy nine Mr. Walker My Lord I have not the Book here it was not spoke for Oates But do you know this hand Shewing him a Copy Mr. Walker Yes and I Believe it is a true Copy L. C. Justice Read it C. Crown Reads Tuesday the 25 of March 1679. Oates It is the last Clause in the Journal of that day C. Crown Reads Resolved Nemine Contradicente by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in Parliament assembled That they do declare that they are fully satisfied by the Proofs they have heard That there now is and for divers years last past hath been a Horrid and Treasonable Plot and Conspirary contrived and carried on by those of the Popish Religion for the Murthering of his Majestie 's Sacred Person and for subverting the Protestant Religion and the Ancient and Established Government of this Kingdom Oates There is an Order to have that Vote printed and inserted before the Form of Prayer for the Fast 'Pray' Sir read the next Page Cl. Crown Reads Die Lunae 25. Oct. 1680. Vpon Report from the Lords Committees for examining matters relating to the discovery of the late Horrid Plot and Conspiracy That Captain Thomas Bickley hath lately vilified Dr. Titus Oates at a publick meeting at Chichester to the prejudice of his Majestie 's Evidence for the further discovery of the said Plot It is thereupon ordered by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled That the Said Thomas Bickley be and is hereby required to appear before their Lordships in the Lord Privy-Seals Lodgings near the house of Peers on Wednesday the third day of November next at eight of the Clock in the forenoon And it is further ordered that Alderman Exon and Alderman William Bury of Chichester aforesaid who were then present at the said meeting do likewise attend their Lordships at the time aforesaid to give Evidence of what they know concerning this Matter L. C. Justice What of all this we know hereupon Bickley was turned out of Commission and now Bickley is in again But it seems as you had credit with some then so you had not with others Well have you done now all Mr. Att. Gen. Yes my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. If Mr. Oates will Summ up his Evidence then I will do the same for the King when he has done L. C. Justice Well what say you Mr. Oates Oates Now my Lord here is an Indictment preferr'd against me for Perjury and the Evidence they have given for the King is this 1. They have call'd Mr. Foster and he tells you that I was produced at the Sessions-house in the Old Baily where he was summon'd as a Jury man upon the Trial of Ireland and he says That when I was produc'd at the Sessions in the Old Baily as a Witness and sworn if I do remember Mr. Foster aright in what he says he did hear me swear That there was a Treasonable Consult of Jesuits upon the twenty fourth of April 78. at the White-Horse-Tavern in the Strand and he does further say That I said those Jesuits afterwards came to a Resolution to kill the King and that they separated themselves into lesser Clubs the Resolution being drawn up by one Mico and that I carryed it from Chamber to Chamber to be signed and did see it signed My Lord I did ask Mr. Foster Whether I in my Evidence called it a Consult or a Traiterous Consult Now my Lord 't is true I did call it a Traiterous Consult it is as true that I did swear there was such a Consult and it is as true that I did swear this Consult did divide it self into lesser Companies it is as true that I did say I did carry that Resolution about from Chamber to Chamber and saw them sign that Resolution for murdering the King I do not mean of this King but of the late King My Lord the Evidence I think I nor no honest man shall need to be asham'd of I am not ashamed to own that I repeated this Evidence several times nor that I gave that Evidence upon Oath for it is Truth my Lord and nothing but Truth and I resolve by the Grace of God to stand by it and confirm it with my Blood if there be occasion My Lord to Convict me of Perjury they have brought a parcel of St. Omers Witnesses and these do swear that which they would have sworn six years ago but then the Court thought them not fit to be sworn not only because the Law will not allow them but because of their Religion that can dispense with false Oaths if it were for a good Cause and that was the Remark my Lord C. Justice Scroggs then made of it I shall not insist much upon what they have sworn for that I suppose your Lordship and the Jury do very well Remember But I have five things to Object to their Evidence and I hope the Jury will take notice of my Objections and make their Remarks upon them for since you have heard the Evidence that is brought against me it will be necessary for your Lordship to weigh the nature of these Witnesses and the Value that the several Juries of London and Middlesex had for them 'T is true there are several brought here now that never were Witnesses before there are indeed other men but of the same Religion and the same Interest and therefore their Testimony must be of the same Value I think your Lordship will allow me that Therefore I Begin with their Religion and that I take notice to be a great Objection to their Evidence as I am advis'd by those that are Learned in the Law And I must appeal to the Court whether a Papist in Case of Religion may be believed and received as a good Witness L. C. Justice We must nor hear any of these Idle Expressions Mr. Just Withens Do you think you are come here to preach Mr. Oates L. C. Justice I 'll tell you a Papist except you 'll prove any Legal Objection against him is as good a Witness in a Court of Record as any other Person whatsoever Oates But if your Lordships I 'll tell you my Lord Cook 's practice was not to admit them as good Witnesses L. C. Justice Do not tell me of my Lord Cook 's practice the Law is otherwise keep to the Business that you have here in hand the Question before us Whether you were forsworn in Ireland's Trial or not Answer that if you can but you must not run out into Clamors and idle Extravagances Oates My Lord I demand it as my Right to be heard what I have to except against the witnesses L. C Justice I tell you you shall be heard when you speak properly But are you to determine what is Right or what is Wrong Oates I am to
determine my own Right now in this point and I insist upon it and demand it L. C. Justice It may be presently you 'll tell us we have no right to judge of it Oates Yes my Lord you have but I hope I have right to urge it L. C. Justice Urge what you will that is to the purpose but then you must keep to the matter in hand and not make such idle Excursions as these are Oates I will keep to the matter my Lord if you will hear me L. C. Justice So you shall we 'll make you keep to the matter or we will not hear you at all Do not think your Impudence shall storm us out of our Senses Oates My Lord I do insist upon it that these mens Religion is an exception to their Testimony and a Papist is not a good witness in a Cause of Religion and I desire I may have leave to argue that as a Point of Law in my own defence L. C. Justice No Sir it is no point of Law at all Oates Then I appeal to all the hearers whether I have Justice done me L. C. Justice What 's that why you Impudent Fellow do you know where you are you are in a Court of Justice and must appeal to none but the Court and the Jury Oates I do appeal to the hearers L. C. Justice Take him away there if you will not behave your self as you ought I can assure you the Court will do what they ought to do and stop your mouth Oates What you please my Lord I must make my own defence as well as I can L. C. Justice You are here in Judgment before us and are to appeal to us we 'll suffer none of your Common-wealth appeals to your Mobile keep within the Bounds of Decency and say what you can for your self Oates My Lord this I move to the Court as one of my Objections to this Evidence given against me That their Religion makes them no good witnesses especially in this Cause L. C. Justice I tell you that is nothing to the purpose what their Religion is Mr. Just. Holloway Mr. Oates we come not here to dispute Points of Religion we come to try a bare matter of Fact whether you are perjured or no. L. C. Justice I tell you a Papist is a good witness without a Legal Exception Mr. Just Withens 'Pray' Mr. Oates is not a Papist as good a witness as a Dissenter Oates My Lord Cook would not admit a Papist to be a good witness in any Cause Mr. Just Withens How not in a Cause of Meum and Tuum Oates No my Lord not in any Cause between Party and Party L. C. Justice Where is that Opinion Oates I 'll cite you the Case if you please my Lord. L. C. Justice 'Pray' let us hear it Oates It is in Bulstrod's Reports the Second Part 155. A Popish Recusant is not to be admitted a witness between Party and Party Mr. Just Withens May a Presbyterian be a good witness Mr. Oates Mr. Just Holloway Or would Mr. Colledge have been a good Witness Mr. Oates Oates I tell you this was my Lord Cook 's practice L. C. Justice You have our Opinion and be satisfied with it That Book says it was my Lord Cook 's practice and we think if that was his practice his practice was against Law Oates Then another thing I object to their Testimony is their Education L. C. Justice That 's no Objection at all neither Oates My Lord they are bred up in a Seminary against Law and for which their Friends are to be punished L. C. Justice So is every man living that 's bred a Dissenter bred up against Law Oates My Lord I have not offered any Dissenter as Evidence for me L. C. Justice No they are all no doubt of it very good People Good-wife Mayo and her Companions excellent Protestants without all question Oates My Lord I humbly offer a Statute to your Lordship And that is Law sure L. C. Justice Yes a Statute is Law What Statute is it Oates It is 27º of Eliz. Cap. 2. The Law says there L. C. Justice Come we will see what the Law says Read the Statute he speaks of Cl. Crown It is Intituled an Act against Jesuits Priests and other such like disobedient Persons Oates My Lord I desire That the Preamble of the Act may be read Cl. Crown Whereas divers Fersons called and professed Jesains Seminary Priests and other Priests which have been and from time to time are made in the Parts beyond the Seas by or according to the Order and Rites of the Romish Church have of late come and have been sent and daily do come and are sent into this Realm of England and others the Queen's Majestie 's Dominions L. C. Justice This is nothing to this Business before us at all Mr. Justice Withens Does this Statute say they are no good witnesses Oates They own themselves to be Educated at St. Omers and that is against this Law expresly L. C. Justice What then Do they own themselves to be in Orders Jesuits and Priests Then you might say somewhat to them upon this Law but do not spend our time in such Trifles Oates I do not spend your time in Trifles my Lord. It is my Defence L. C. Justice Mr Attorney do you go on for we will not sit here to spend our time for nothing Oates 'Pray' my Lord let me but shew this I only propose one Statute more to your Lordship's Consideration L. C. Justice You may propose to read the whole Statute Book Oates 'Pray' my Lord hear me out L. C. Justice Speak then to the Business in hand Oates It is the Statute made in 3d. King Charles the First Chap. 2. L. C. Justice It is nothing to the purpose Oates I am advised 't is very material for me L. C. Justice I tell you it is not and we 'll not let your importunity prevail upon us to spend our time for nothing There has been a great deal of time spent to no purpose already Oates Then if you will over rule it my Lord L. C. Justice We do over-rule it For it signifies nothing to this purpose Oates 'Pray' my Lord be pleased to give me leave to offer their Judgments in Cases of Conscience whereby they own they have Dispensations to swear Lies for the promoting of the Cause L. C. Justice That is no Evidence neither Oates This is very hard in such a Case as this L. C. Justice No It is not hard that what is no Evidence in Law should not be suffered to be given in Evidence Oates It is Evidence against the poor Dissenters my Lord. L. C. Justice Indeed Sir It is not Evidence against any one body in the World if you will take my word for it if you will not I cannot tell how to help it Oates Then I offer you one thing more my Lord and that is what was said and done in the Case of the Earl of Shaftsbury when
he was charged with High Treason and committed to the Tower of London at several Sessions in the Old Baily and at Hicks's Hall they did move that they might have liberty to bring in an Indictment of Perjury against the witnesses which did accuse him of Treason but now the Court there over-ruled those Motions and would not suffer my Lord of Shaftsbury's Friends to bring Indidictments of Perjury against him because they would not have the King's Evidence Indicted of Perjury nor the Popish Plot called in question This is matter of Fact in the Old Baily L. C. Justice And this is all idle too Oates 'Pray' my Lord will you hear me L. C. Justice But 'pray' Sir will you hear me too I tell you this is nothing to the purpose neither Oates My Lord I desire to speak but these few words then as to my own Witnesses I have produced And the first is Cicely Mayo and my Lord though it be your Lordships pleasure not to have that good opinion of her as I think the poor woman does deserve yet I hope her Evidence will have it's due Weight and Consideration with your Lordship and the Jury she says she saw me in Town in the Month of May Now indeed she could not be positive what May it was but she said it was the May before the Popish Plot broke out that is before the Rumour of that Plot was spread abroad and she believes the Plot broke out in 78. But this she says positively she saw me in the Month of May here my Lord she comes to give this Evidence freely and voluntarily a man that is a Knave is a Knave for something either out of Malice or for Gain or Interest but she has no Reward given her nor can hope for any but in Love to Justice without any by-end or particular Interest she came here to testifie the truth about her seeing me in London in May 78. The next Witness is Mr. Butler he was then Sir Richard Barker's Coachman He lived some years with him as his Servant but he is now set up for himself and he says that when he was about his Masters Business in the Coach-yard and fitting the Coach for to fetch his Master home from Putney I came in and this was in the beginning of May in a disguise and he says he saw me a second time in another disguise Then comes a third Witness that I called and that is Page and he came into the Hall where the Patients use to wait for his Master and there he met me and spoke with me Then I called Walker the Minister but it happens his Memory is not so good now as it was heretofore and indeed I cannot tell how to blame him for 't is so long since that it is impossible for any body to remember the Circumstances of times and places that in some short time after the Fact might have been remembred with far greater Ease I expected Sir Richard Barker might have been here being Subpoened to Justifie the Evidence of these people and I did expect that Mr. Smith would have been examined but I perceived the Court tender of that point as knowing it would then easily have been seen upon which side it was that he was suborn'd that is to make such a Confession as Mr. Attorney would have hinted at L. C. Justice Have you a mind to examine him Mr. Oates with all my heart If you consent to it he shall be examined Mr. Just Withens If you will he shall be examined it was for your sake he was not Mr. Just Holloway It was to do you Right that he was refused to be sworn before Oates Good Mr. Justice Holloway you are very sharp upon me Mr. Just. Holloway No I am not sharp upon you I think the Court did you a great deal of Justice you have no reason to complain Oates But my Lord this I say The Evidence upon which I am now indicted of Perjury is the same which was delivered six years ago at the Old Baily at Whitebread's Trial first and then at Langhorn's Trial where were sixteen Witnesses then produced and heard against me But then my Lord what Credit did they receive at Whitebread and Langhorn's Trials Now if this Evidence that I gave was then to be beleived tho opposed by so many Witnesses what new objection does rise against it which was not then hinted and received an answer For as to all the Records that are brought out of the House of Lords they have not amounted to a Charge sufficient to diminish any mans Evidence in the world for as to the Narrative that is entred there in the Journal I think I and any man else that were concerned as I was may very well defend the truth of it and I do avow the truth of the Popish Plot and will stand by it as long as I have a day to live and I do not question but the Jury upon Consideration of those Protestant Witnesses that I have here brought against these Popish Seminaries will acquit me of this Perjury I leave it to your Lordship and the Jury to judge and I hope those passages of heat that have fallen from me in Court shall not make me fare at all the worse in your Judgement I have called some Noble Lords to testify for me but I find either the distance of time has wrought upon their memories or the difference of the season has chang'd their opinion so that now they disbelieve that which they did believe before and perhaps for as little Reason as L. C. Justice As they believed you at first Oates Yes truely my Lord for as little reason as they believed me at first For I cannot expect that a man who believes without a principal should not recant that belief without a reason L. C. Justice What do you mean by that Oates I name no body L. C. Justice But the Nobility that are here and that have been Witnesses in this Cause are all persons of that Honour that the Court is bound in Justice to take notice of and vindicate them from your scandalous Reflections but only I think that a Slander from your Mouth is very little Scandal Oates Nor from some bodies else neither L. C. Justice But Sir you must be taught better manners Oates I find my Lord I am not to be heard in this Cause with Patience L. C. Justice I think you do not deserve to be heard at all Oates I cannot tell how to help it if you will not hear me L. C Justice Can't you say what you have to say for your self without Reflections and running out into such Extravagancies Oates My Lord you will suffer me to offer nothing that is Material for my Defence Mr. Just. Walcot Do you think it decent for this Court to suffer persons of Honour that by your own desire were sworn to give Testimony in this Cause should lie under the Reproach of your Tongue Oates Good Mr. Justice Walcot was there ever
any man dealt with as I am or had such Evidence offered to be given against him Here they offer to blacken me with the Imputation of that foul infamous Crime of Perjury and who are the Witnesses to prove it but Youths out of a Seminary Sir George Wakeman and my Lord Castlemain known Papists and perhaps Popish Recusants Convict too as for my Lord Castlemain the Record of his acquital is brought as a Charge against me to prove that I was forsworn and not believed at his Tryal when all the World knows it was because there was but one Witness against him that he came of and that was the Reason that was urged by my Lord C. Justice Soroggs at that very time who would not admit Dangerfield to be a Witness and reflected not at all upon my Testimony but directed the Jury for want of another Witness to acquit him Then my Lord here is Wakeman brought and his acquital too he swears all I said against him was false whereas had it not been for two dishonest persons one I have now in my sight I shall not name any names we could at that time have proved five thousand pound of the money paid to him and that he gave a Receipt for it but my Lord this I am sure of if I had been brought in as a Witness in the Case of those that suffered lately for the Presbyterian Phanatick Plot as they call it I had never been call'd in question if my Evidence had been false but it is apparent the Papists have now a Turn to serve and these Papists are brought in the St. Omers Youths to bear this Testimony on purpose to falsify my Evidence and to bring of the Popish Lords that now stand impeach'd of high Treason for the Popish Conspiracy but my Lord I hope as the Court would never admit indictments of Perjury against the Witnesses in that Case of my Lord Shaftsbury so you will not admit it here and if my L. C. Justice Jones were in the Right who did the same thing in his Circuit I hope I shall have that Right done me here My Lord it is not me they indict but the whole Protestant Interest is aim'd at in this Prosecution and hereby they arraign the whole proceedings of so many Parliaments all the Courts of Justice and the Verdicts of those Juries that convicted the Traytors that were executed for my own part I care not what becomes of me the Truth will one time or another appear L. C. Justice I hope in God it will Oates I do not question it my Lord. L. C. Justice And I hope we are finding it out to day Oates But my Lord since I have not the liberty to argue those things that were most material for my defence against this Indictment I appeal to the Great God of Heaven and Earth the Judge of all and once more in his presence and before all this Auditory I avow my Evidence of the Popish Plot all and every part of it to be nothing but true and will expect from the Almighty God the Vindication of my Integrity and Innocence Mr. Sol. Gen. May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury Oates My Lord I have one thing to move to your Lordship I desire I may be brought up to morrow by Rule of Court to hear my Trial that is then to be L. C. Justice Ay let him be brought up by rule to his Trial. Oates My Lord I lie under very great affliction with the Stone and the Gout and besides that I have lain in Irons these twenty one weeks I beseech your Lordship that this Cruelty may not be inflicted upon me My Lord I am but hitherto a Debtor to the King upon a Civil Account And if I should be convicted upon these Indictments I could then be but in Execution for a Trespass And I humbly conceive and hope the Court will show me that Favour as to acquaint my keeper that I ought not to be so handled L. C. Justice Look you for that I tell you again what I have often said I expect from the Marshal that he keep you as he ought to keep you I have heard that there have been abundance of Attempts made for your escape and therefore the Marshal must have the greater care of you Oates Let any of those Complaints be made out my Lord and I 'll be contented to be used how they will L. C. Justice I repeat it again let the Marshal have a care to keep you in salva et arcta Custodia according to Law Mr. Just Holloway If the Marshal does otherwise than his Duty inform against him and take the Remedy the Law allows Marshal But the last night my Lord Ropes were brought into his Chamber on purpose to give him means to escape and here are the bundle of Ropes Oates I know nothing at all of them I assure you my Lord. L. C. Justice Well you have our Rule Go on Mr. Sollicitor Mr. Soll. General May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury I am of Council for the King in this Cause which is upon an Indictment of Perjury against Titus Oates the Defendant and the Perjury charg'd upon the Defendant is laid to be in his Oath at the Trial of Ireland at the Old Baily and it is thus That he in his Evidence at that Trial did swear that there was a Treasonable Consult of the Jusuits held at the White-Horse-Tavern in the Strand the twenty fourth of April 78. and that he was there present Oates Ay I was there L. C. Justice You must be quiet and let the Council go on without interruption Mr. Soll. Gen. And that they seperated themselves into lesser Companies and Clubs and that the Jesuits came to a resolution to murder the late King and that he the Defendant Oates carried this resolution from Chamber to Chamber and saw it signed by them now all this is laid in his Indictment to be false for that in truth he was not present at any such Consult of the Jesuits at the White-Horse-Tavern in the Strand upon the twenty fourth of April 78. nor did carry any such resolution from Chamber to Chamber to be sign'd as he had sworn in the Old Baily at that Trial and so has committed Wilful and Corrupt Perjury Gentlemen the Evidence that has been given to prove that he was not present at any such Consult nor did carry any such Resolution has been by proving where he was at that very time that he swears this Consult was held that is that he was really at St. Omers in parts beyond the Seas and not in London and to make out this we have produced no less then twenty Winesses that swear positively and give you very many Circumstances to induce you to believe that what they have taken upon them to remember is really and effectually true First you have Mr. Hilsley and he swears that he himself came away from St. Omers the twenty
fourth of April New Stile which is the fourteenth of April Old Stile which was a Sunday that night he came to Callis the next day he arriv'd at Dover and coming up to Town towards London the next day he met with Mr. Bournaby who was then going to St. Omers And he further swears that at that very time when he came from St. Omers he left Oates the Defendant upon the place this I say was the fourteenth of April And for a Confirmation of this to be true he left him there at that time I would mention what two other Witnesses do testify and therein do verify what he swears for they tell you That at this very time when he came over or within a day or two but long before such time as there was any occasion to bring this to be a question he told one of them in a discourse that was between them that he had left upon the place from whence he came which was the College at St. Omers an English Minister whose name was Sampson Lucy Oates My Lord I beg I may have leave to withdraw for I am very weak and Ill. L. C. Justice Then make Room for him to go away if he will Mr. Soll. Gen. And they give you an account that the Defendant Oates went by that name there and it is not denyed by him that he did so And this is a Circumstance greatly verifying Mr. Hilsley's Evidence Then comes Mr. Bournaby who sears That he met Mr. Hilsley when he came from St. Omers about the sixteenth of April O. S. and the twenty first of April O. S. he came to St. Omers and that when he came there he found Oates there upon the place this was the first of May New Stile and he gives you this circumstance to strengthen his Testimony That he very well remembers that upon the second of May N. S. the day after he came to St. Omers Oates intruded into his Company and got himself acquainted with him he says further that upon the third of May N. S. he particularly remembers Oates was in his Company there and they went into the Garden and walkt together he also says he saw him the fifth of May N. S. which is the twenty fifth of April O. S. the day after this day assigned for the Consult with this Circumstance That he remembers to have seen him in the Rhetorick School and so successively afterwards he gives you a particular account down to Midsummer after that Oates continued in the College at St. Omers and then went away Then the next Witness we produce is Mr. Pool and he gives you an Account That upon the twenty fifth of April 1678. N. S. which was the fifteenth of April Our Stile he came over here and he left behind him at St. Omers the Defendant Oates for he particularly remembers that he saw him there when he came away so Hilsley left him the fourteenth of April Mr. Pool came away the fifteenth of April which is our twenty fifth and left him at St. Omers and does not remember That he used to be absent out of the College and Mr. Bournaby finds him there the twenty first of April so that particularly at the times the other two came away and Bournaby came thither there he was and there they saw him The next Witness is Mr. Thornton and he gives you an account when Oates came thither first and how long he stayed there he says he came about Christmas 77. and there he stay'd till Midsummer-Eve 78 and he tells you some particular days he saw him on he says he saw him there on the first of May N. S. and he saw him the second of May N. S. in Company with Mr. Bournaby the next day after his Arrival there wondring at their suddain acquaintance And he adds a particular Circumstance why he remembers it was the second of May because that day the Scholars at St. Omers acted a Play at which Oates had a Skuffle for a Seat and he says he does likewise remember him to have been there when Mr. Pool came away which was the twenty fifth of April N. S. Then Mr. Conway that was our next Witness gives you an account likewise of Oates's coming to St. Omers about December 77. and how long he stayed there viz. till the latter end of June 78. And he does not remember that he lay out of the College above one Night and that was in January And he remembers particularly that he saw him with Mr. Bournaby such a day in May. Then we brought another Witness and that was Mr. Haggerstone and he tells you he had good reason to remember Mr. Oates for he was in the same Classis with him and this Gentleman gives an account particularly that he remembers him to be there the next day after Mr. Bournaby came and agrees in Testimony with all the rest that from Christmas till Midsummer he was not absent out of the College but one night We have another Witness Mr. Beeston and he remembers that Oates was playing at Nine-pins the first of May he remembers the second of May to have seen him with Mr. Bournaby after the play was over and that agrees with the other Witnesses about his being in Bournaby's Company the Second of May and he remembers likewise that he himself was chosen Reader to the Sodality but upon Mr. Oates's Importunity he supplyed the place in Mr. Beeston's Room onely with this Reserve and Condition That Mr. Beeston was to be Reader at any time if Oates failed and he gives you this particular account that Oates did read as he believes every Sunday and Holiday from the latter end of March when he was chosen Reader to within a Week of his going away for that he did never read himself as he should have done if Oates had been absent or failed to read We have another Witness and that is Mr. Smith and he swears his being there from Christmas 77 to Midsummer 78. and he remembers particularly as to April and May because the twenty first of April he himself fell sick in the College and went into the Infirmary and remained there till the seventh of May and he does remember that Oates visited him very oft in that time in the Infirmary and told him Mr. Hilsley was gone away and Mr. Pool was gone away and two or three other particulars which happened in the College at that time so that there is another Evidence that is very strong with Circumstances to confirm the Testimony of the rest and he gives you a very satisfactory account of it by showing the reasons how he comes to remember these things Mr. Price who was our next Witness has given you a Relation all to the same purpose of Oates's coming there at Christmas and of his going away at Midsummer And he remembers particularly that Oates was at St. Omers when the Jesuits went to the Consult at London for that there was a Consult and at that time is acknowledged
material Circumstances which I have before reckoned up to you But Gentlemen false witnesses are very often detected by little Circumstances though I must needs say these are not small ones for these are very remarkable things in themselves and great Contradictions to one another and therefore 't is impossible they both can swear true There were some other witnesses that were produced by Mr. Oates formerly upon this point one of which was Clay the Priest and he you hear is contradicted by Mr. Howard's Testimony who not only tells you he was not at his House when he says he was but shews that Clay was mistaken in point of time It was not in May but in July But that 's not all we have another Evidence Gentlemen to show how this mistake comes to pass and which will give a great light into this sort of practice that has been used in this matter for we have two witnesses that give you an account how Oates and Sir William Waller were at the Gate-house with Clay and there did threaten him That unless he swore he dined with Oates at Mr. Howard's in May they knew he was a Priest and he should be hanged The man was somewhat cautious at first for truly he knew nothing of the matter but at last upon condition he might have his money again that was taken from him he had been a Rogue formerly and he did not know what he might do Now we find presently after that he was in fact brought as a witness what he swore Mr. Howard tells you and you have heard him contradicted in that point of time For Mr. Howard says it was in July and then it was agreed that Oates was in England for our witnesses tell you that at Midsummer he came away from St. Omers So that Gentlemen the Evidence that was formerly produced for him is not only taken away by positive Counter-proof but there is fixt upon him with great Infamy the additional Crime of Subornation by forcing People to swear for him under the Threats of being hanged and we all know how such People lay under great fears and terrors at that time There was another witness that was produced formerly for him but I shall not take upon me to repeat all the particular Evidence that has been now given about that matter In short our Objection to that Testimony lies thus That Oates did swear in his Narrative that Smith was a dangerous man and imployed by the Jesuits to stir up the People against the Government that appears by Oates his own Oath But it likewise appears that afterwards they were reconciled and that he gave Smith a Certificate under his hand that he was a good Protestant and a good Subject and about Eminent Service for the King Now we see no reason hitherto why Mr. Oates should change his mind after having sworn him such an ill man all of a suddain to be so kind to give him his Protection and so advantageous a Character as that was in that Season But Gentlemen the mystery is easily unfolded if we go three or four days further in time which brings us to the Trials of Whitebread and Langhorn it seems Mr. Oates was then aware of that which is now an Objection to his Testimony for it was made an Objection at the first Trial of Ireland That he was not at this Consult for he was then actually at St. Omers but no witnesses were there to prove it but now he was aware that some were a coming over and it concerned him to make some good proof if he could that really and in truth he was here in London at that time And I cannot omit to take notice of what my Lord Chief Justice was pleased to observe and object to him now It is a wonder a man should be here in Town so long a man that had much Acquaintance as it seems he had a man that went about freely and publickly as his own witnesses say he did should be seen by no body but these few should not be able to give an account by any body where he lodged at any one time in this Interval Nay by no Circumstances that must occur to his own Knowledge to be able to shew where he lodged is very strange though it should be that he did lodge in the Houses of those that would not come to give Evidence as he alleadges yet it is almost impossible but there must be some other Circumstances to prove his being here besides the Evidence of the Landlord of the House where he lodged but he gives no account where he was lodged and whom he conversed withal but these People only and that they should see him who were not his Intimates and none else in the World is to me one of the most strange things that can be conceived Now Gentlemen when he has given no manner of satisfaction that he was here and is by twenty witnesses sworn not to be here What is it that he says to all this why he doth insist upon it that his Credit must not be now Impeached because that once he had the fortune to be believed and some men have died and suffered for it as if no Perjury were to be punished but that which is unsuccessful whereas the reason why Perjury is taken notice of in the Temporal Courts is only because of the mischief that it may do Shall it then be no Crime when a man has done the mischief when the fear of that mischief was the ground of making it a Crime that is a most monstrous way of arguing And yet this would Mr. Oates have look like an Argument that because he has been believed in his false Oaths and men have suffered by his Perjury and he has been successful in his Crime that Success has protected his wickedness from punishment This I confess is a new way of arguing and such as none but Mr. Oates could certainly have invented But Gentlemen to contradict this we have shown you that as he has had the fortune to be believed so he has likewise had the fortune to be disbelieved For there has been produced as many Records of Acquitals where he was an Evidence as there have been produced Convictions upon his Testimony so that he has been as often disbelived as believed Whither then does he betake himself next he has called a great many witnesses to give you as Evidence for him an account what Opinions at that time the Houses of Parliament the Courts of Justice and the Juries had of his Evidence and then insists upon it that now to call his Credit in question is to arraign the Justice of the Nation the Wisdom of both Plouses of Parliament that believed him the Honesty of the Juries that convicted those whom he accused and the Integrity and Understanding of the Judges who were Learned Wife and Just men and with great earnestness he asks the question Why now at this time of day should this be called in question which
upon his Oath backt with all the Imprecations of Evil to himself that a man can use That there was not one word of truth in Oates's Testimony nor did he ever see Oates in his life till such time as he was taken up upon his Accusation Now are here two persons of Honour and Quality that upon their Oaths do particularly give you an account as in the presence of Almighty God that Oates has twice forsworn himself against them Gentlemen there is notice to be taken of the Journal of the House of Lords and though it is true for the sake of the Precedent and to secure the Justice of the Nation we did keep them strictly to their proof that it was upon Oath And as to the business of Smith though we do believe the thing in our private judgments yet we thought it not fit to be permitted that persons should upon their own Oathes confess themselves to be guilty of Perjury and afterwards give Evidence against others for such are not to have the countenance of ever being Witnesses again yet by the Records of Parliament and other Evidence there is enough to make the matter aimed at clear For it is clear by his Narrative that Oates did first swear as far as he could well swear to bring him into the displeasure of the People for that was his way to intimidate all he had to do with and thereby force them to comply with his Designes And there was no more plausible Accusation at that time than to accuse a man for saying somewhat against the Parliament or being in a Combination to subvert the Protestant Religion But you see when he comes to have his own turn serv'd then this man upon whom he had fixed such an odious Character is really no Papist at all but engag'd in service for his King and Country and has Mr. Oates's Passport a thing of great advantage to him at that season This the Kings Council make use of with great reason as an Evidence of Tampering for the man has altered his opinion of one he had before accused and now brings him as an honest to give Evidence for him And this say they must be intended to be done by Practice and by Threats And the rather Gentlemen for that you have an account by Witnesses sworn that there was one Clay a Popish Priest that lay in Prison at the Gatebouse and while he was there Oates and Sn William Waller came into the Prison to him and tampering with him says Oates I hear there are some St. Omers Boys that intend to testifie that I was at St. Omers when I say I was at London but you must swear that you din'd with me at Mr. Howards in May 1678 or if you will not you know I know you to be a Priest and I 'll hang you Says Clay Where is my Silver and Gold that was taken away from me And we all know Sir William Waller was wonderful good at the fingering of Gold he us'd to take away broad Pieces as Popish Reliques because of the Crosses upon them Says Clay Give me my Gold again I will swear for you I have been a Rogue before and I may be a Rogue again And accordingly a Contract is made for him to swear directly that Oates and he were together at Mr. Howard's house in May 78. This very Fellow that tells you now the story told it the next morning to another man who has likewise sworn the same Then is Clay conveyed by Oates to the Old-Baily and there swears being thus threatned and suborn'd That in May 1678 he and Mr. Oates dined together at Mr. Howard's house and you have Mr. Howard produc'd who does swear that Glay did swear so but indeed he was not there with Mr. Oates at dinner till July after This Gentlemen is direct Corruption and Subornation and if a man will be a corrupt Knave and endeavour to suborn Witnesses to swear that which is false he is the more likely to swear false himself Besides that you are to take notice here is his own Narrative produced where you have it sworn by himself That he went back to St. Omers about the beginning of May and was there all the month of May and in June till the latter end of it Then all this while either Mr. Oates or his Witnesses are perjur'd in the Case He says he stay'd but three or four days in England after the Consult was over and then went streight back again to St. Omers Which must be the first week in May but if you believe his two Witnesses he din'd with them several times after that and so it is apparent some of them are guilty of gross and foul Perjury Now Centlemen I cannot but resort back to the Objection that I made at first 'T is strange to me that a man that came upon such a designe should go publickly about the streets at noon-day though in a disguise yet he was known But if you take the persons time to be in the year 1677 then it is easily reconciled what they did say of their seeing him in such a disguise and so all their Testimony may stand together and perhaps they may mistake in a point of time though not in the substance of their Evidence and I would out of charity conclude it to be so But I will say if they are to be taken strictly to the year 1678 it is monstrous to imagine that we should have no body brought to let us know where he lodged where he eat with whom he convers'd for all that time Gentlemen I have detained you the longer in this matter because I take it to be of so great weight wherein the Justice and Honour of the Nation are so much engaged and it was therefore fit this Cause should be tryed in the most solemn and publick manner in order to vindicate the Nation from the Reproach and Calumny of Injustice and Oppression And sure I am if you think these Witnesses swear true as I cannot see any colour of objection there does not remain the least doubt but that Oates is the blackest most perjur'd Villain that ever appeared upon the face of the Earth C. Crown Tipstaff you must take care of the Jury L. C. J. Gentlemen if any of you have a mind to drink at the Bar before you go you shall have some got for you Jury No my Lord we do not care for drinking L. C. J. Then we will stay for you Then the Jury withdrew to consider of their Verdict and after about a quarter of an hours stay they return'd and delivered in their Verdict That the Defendant was guilty of the Perjury whereof he was Indicted Which being Recorded the Lord Chief Justice spoke to the Jury to this effect L. C. J. Gentlemen that we are not God be thanked in those times of Disorder and Confusion that we have been heretofore in to have Humming or Hissings to declare the Auditors Approbation or Dislike of Juries Verdicts But because there has been this day mention made of the Opinions of Judges about Verdicts I shall take the liberty to declare my mind to you now That formy part I am satisfied in my Conscience you have given a good and a just Verdict and so I believe is every other Judge upon the Bench. To which the rest of the Judges assented and then the Court arose