believes to be true having been formerly so informed by His Majesties Learned Council upon sundry occasions To the Fourth he saith That the legal and ordinary Proceedings at Council-Table are and time out of mind have been by Petition Answers examination of Witnesses as in other Courts of Justice concerning British Plantations the Church and Cases hence recommended by the King for the time being and in Appeals from other Courts there and the Council-Board have always punished Contempts to Orders there made to Proclamations and Acts of State by Fine and Imprisonment He saith That it might be he told the Earl of Cork that he would imprison him if he disobeyed the Orders of the Council-Table and that he would not have Lawyers dispute or question those Orders and that they should bind but remembreth not the Comparison of Acts of Parliament and he hath been so far from scorning the Laws that he hath endeavoured to maintain them the Suit against the Earl in the Castle-Chamber was concerning the Possessions of the Colledge of Youghall worth 6 or 700 l. which he had endeavoured to get by causing of unlawful Oaths to be taken and very undue means the matter proceeded to Examination and Publication of Witnesses and after upon the Earl of Cork's humble Suit and payment of 15000 l. to His Majesty and his acknowledgement of his Misdemeanors obtained a Pardon and the Bill and Proceedings were taken of the Files and he remembers not any Suit for breach of any Order made at Council-Table To the Fifth he saith The Deputies and Generals of the Army have always executed Martial Law which is necessary there and the Army and the Members thereof have been long time Governed by printed Orders according to which divers by Sentence of the Council of War have formerly been put to death as well in the time of Peace as War The Lord Mountnorris being a Captain of a Company in the Army for mutinous words against the said Earl General of that Army and upon two of those ancient Orders was proceeded against by a Council of War being the Principal Officers of the Army about twenty in number and by them upon clear Evidence sentenced to Death wherein the said Earl was no Judge but laboured so effectually with His Majesty that he obtained the Lord Mountnorris's Pardon who by that Sentence suffered no personal hurt or damage save about two days Imprisonment And as to the other Persons he can make no Answer thereunto no particulars being described To the Sixth he saith The Suit had depended many years in Chancery and the Plaintiff Complaining of that delay the said Earl upon a Petition as in such Cases hath been usual calling to him the then Master of the Rolls the now Lord Chancellor and the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas upon the Proofs in the Chancery decreed for the Plantiff to which he refers himself and it may be the Lord Mountnorris was thereupon put out of his Possession To the Seventh he saith His Majesty being Intituled to divers Lands upon an Inquisition found Proclamation was made That such as Claimed by Patent should come in by a day and have their Patents allowed as if they had been found in the Inquisition and accordingly divers were allowed The Lord Dillon produced His Patent which being questionable he consented and desired that a Case might be drawn which was drawn by Counsel and argued and the Judges delivered their Opinions but the Lord Dillon nor any other were bound thereby or put out of Possession but might have traversed the Office or otherwise legally have proceeded that Case or Opinion notwithstanding To the Eighth he saith That upon Sir Iohn Gifford's Petition to the King His Majesty referred it to the Deputy and Council of Ireland where the matter proceeding legally to a Decree against the Lord Loftus and upon his Appeal that Decree by His Majesty and His Council of England was confirmed to which Decree and Order he refers himself believing the Lord Loftus was committed for disobeying that Decree and for continuance in contempt committed close Prisoner He saith That the Lord Loftus having committed divers Contempts the Council by Warrant required him to appear at the Board and to bring the Great Seal with him which Order he disobeyed and was shortly after Committed and the Great Seal was delivered up by His Majesties express Command and not otherwise And an Information was exhibited in the Star-Chamber for grievous Oppressions done by the Lord Loftus as Chancellor whereof he was so far from justifying as that he submitted desiring to be an Object of His Majesties Mercy and not of His Justice The Earl of Kildare for not performing of an Award made by King Iames and of an Award made in pursuance thereof by the said Earl of Strafford upon a Reference from His Majesty was by the Deputy and Council Committed and a Letter being unduly obtained he did not thereupon enlarge him but upon another Letter and submission to the Orders as by the King was directed he was enlarged The Lady Hibbots and one Hoy her Son having upon a Petition Answer Examination of Witnesses and other Proceedings at Council-Board been found to have committed foul abuses by Fraud and Circumvention to have made a Bargain with the Petitioner Hibbots for Lands of a great value for a small sum of Money was Ordered to deliver up the Writing no Assurances being perfected or Money paid and it 's like he threatned her with Commitment if she obeyed not that Order but denieth that the Lands were after sold to Sir Robert Meredith to his use or that by any Order by himself made any one hath been Imprisoned concerning Freeholds but for debts and personal things as some have been used by all his Predecessors in like Causes To the Ninth he saith Warrants to such Effects have been usually granted to the Bishops in Ireland in the times of all former Deputies but the Earl not satisfied with the conveniency thereof refused to give any such Warrants in general to the Bishops as had been formerly done but being informed that divers in the Diocess of Down gave not fitting Obedience he granted a Warrant to that Bishop whereto he referreth which was the only Warrant he granted of that Nature and hearing of some Complaints of the Execution thereof he recalled it To the Tenth he saith The Lord Treasurer Portland offered the Farm of the Customs for 13000 l. per annum in some particular Species but the Earl of Strafford advanced the same Customs to 15500 l. per annum and 8000 l. Fine and by His Majesties Command became a Farmer at those Rates proposed without addition to those Rates as by the printed Books 7 Car. Regis may appear he disswaded the advance of Rates lately proposed by Sir Abraham Dawes so as it was declined the Rates of Hydes and Wooll are moderate consideration being had of their true value and of the Places whereto they are
Ely sworn was examined what was the proceedings of the Marshalls Court when he was Judge-Marshall and how long he had been so He Answered He was 40 years since Judge there and for the manner of proceeding There was never any Deputy or Governor of that Kingdom but they had a Commission of Martial-Law to be exercised in the time of their Government but the exercise of that Law was two-fold one was Summary the other was Plenary That which was Summary and short was committed to the Provost-Marshall that sought after the Rebels and Kernes that kept the Woods These when they were apprehended the Provost-Marshall hanged them on the next Tree and this was in poor Cases where the estate of the party that prosecutes is not worth 40 s. In the second which is the Plenary proceeding there are three Considerations to be had of the time the place and the person the time must necessarily be in time of War the place in the Field and the persons must be such as are subject to the Rule of Martial-Law And the proceeding was thus The parties complained the other appearing an Information was drawn in writing Witnesses produced and reduced in writing a Sentence given absolutely or condemnatory and the Party punished or acquitted and the Warrant directed to the Provost-Marshall to put the Judgment in Execution But when the Army was dissolved and every one returned to their own home Souldiers Captains and Commanders this Power ceased and was no farther executed for it had been an extraordinary damage to His Majesty that by the Martial-Law every one should be tried for he loses nothing but his life not his Lands or his Goods and therefore the proceeding without was so slow and seldom that he had not remembred any man of quality worth 100 l. or 200 l. in thirty years to have been executed by Martial-Law Here the Manager did offer the Instructions given in my Lord Faulkland's time which Mr. Fitz-Gerard testified to be by him examined with the Original in the Signet-Office as to the 33. and 34th Articles Part of the Instructions were read viz. 33. Such as are to be brought to Trial at Law are not to be executed by the Marshal except in time of War and Rebellion One of the Managers observed That my Lord of Strafford would have Power of Martial-Law over my Lord Mountnorris but would not execute him which shews he desires not blood so much as Power of blood that the Law of all the Peers might be under his Girdle and he besought their Lordships to consider it Whereas he said The blood of their Lordships Ancestors was spent in the Irish Wars this way their own blood may be spent in the Peace of Ireland and Peace of England c. My Lord of Strafford taking notice of some words charging him that my Lord Mountnorris lost his Offices in that Sentence In way of Answer said That they were lost in a Sentence in the Castle-Chamber for Misdemeanors fully proved and by himself confessed and therefore His Majesty disposed of them To which one of the Managers Replyed That there was no sentence in the Castle-Chamber against him And so after some Discourses and Resolution touching the Method of the Proceedings about the next Articles the House was Adjourned The First day Monday March 29. 1641. THE Sixth Article The Charge That the said Earl of Strafford without any Legal Procéedings and upon a Paper-Petition of Richard Rolstone did cause the said Lord Mountnorris to be disseized and put out of possession of his Freehold and Inheritance of his Mannor of Tymore in the County of Armagh in the Kingdom of Ireland the said Lord Mountnorris having béen 18 years before in quiet Possession thereof MR. Glyn opened the Sixth Article setting forth the Execution of an Arbitrary Power by the Earl of Strafford contrary to Law in point of the Estates of His Majesties Subjects by disseizing and putting the Lord Mountnorris a Peer out of Possession of Lands of 200 l. a year which he had possessed 18 years before on a Paper-Petition without any Rules of Justice during the said Lord Mountnorris his Imprisonment contrary to an Act of Parliament read the other day to King Iames his Instructions to the directions of His Majesties Proclamation and the Rules of proceeding in the Kingdom of Ireland The Decree made in the Cause betwixt Rolstone and my Lord Mountnorris was first offered the Manager observing that it was nothing to the matter whether the Decree were just or unjust and that it never depended in the Chancery as is set forth in his Answer Thomas Little the Lord of Strafford's Secretary being sworn attested that the Copy produced was under his own hand And here my Lord of Strafford informed their Lordships that upon his Defence he would ask Mr. Little some questions desiring their Lordships to remember that he is upon his Oath The Decree was read Dated 28. Iuly 1637. whereby for the Reasons therein set forth and with the assistance of the Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas It was among other things Ordered That Henry Rolston should be put into quiet Possession of certain Lands therein mentioned Lord Mountnorris being Examined Whether he was put out of possession by Vertue of that Order and how long he had Possession of the Lands He Answered He was in quiet and peaceable Possession from May 20. till he was put out by my Lord of Strafford's Warrant August 29. 1637. as was written to him from an Agent that was there from the delivery of the Warrant to the Sheriff That he was all the while the business was in prosecution till his coming into England a little before his putting out of possession in prison under restraint for not suing out his Pardon upon the Sentence of the Council of War Mr. Anslow sworn and interrogated to the same purpose Answered That to my Lord Mountnorris's possession of the Lands he can say only by seeing the Accounts passed by former Receivers and the Patent my Lord Mountnorris had of the Land but for his being put out of the possession by the Order he found when he was left in Ireland about a year and half ago he was put out of possession by an Order of my Lord of Strafford and that he being there could have no Rents paid Henry Rolsion's Son being in possession the Father being dead Being asked Whether a Petition was not preferred for liberty to proceed at Law He Answered It was in his own behalf for the Land was estated on him by his Father And that he the Deponent being to pass his Land on the Commission of Grace Rolston Petitioned for it himself and therefore he the Deponent Petitioned it might be hindred to pass and that he might have his Right tried legally but he could get no Answer the Commissioners saying They sate not there to question any Lords Estate The Manager observed this to be the assuming
November 6th 1640. THe House of Commons having in the first place according to ancient Custom setled all their Grand Committees for Religion Grievances Courts of Justice Trade and Priviledges It was moved That in regard the Complaints of the Kings Subjects in Ireland were many who had undergone great Oppressions in that Kingdom by Male-Government there and come to this Parliament for Relief might be referred to a Committee of the whole House for that purpose only to be appointed This motion being made by Mr. Pym and seconded by Sir Iohn Clotworthy avowing many particulars of the Complaints mentioned to be true it made a Discovery to such as were well-wishers to Thomas Lord Wentworth Earl of Strafford and Lord Lieutenant of Ireland that this Motion was intended by a side-wind to accumulate Complaints against him the said Lord Lieutenant in order to an Accusation so when the question was put after long debate viz. Whether the Irish Affairs should be referred to a Committee of the whole House The House was divided Sir Iohn Clotworthy and Sir Henry Mildmay being of Opinion for the Yeas were appointed Tellers of the number of the Noes and Sir Edward Bainton and Sir Richard Luson being of Opinion not to refer this business of Ireland to a Grand Committee conceiving it without President were appointed Tellers of the number of the Yeas and when they had told all they came up to the Table and made this Report to Mr. Speaker That there were with the Yeas 165 and with the Noes 152 whereupon it was Resolved upon the Question That the Irish Affairs should be referred to a Grand Committee of the whole House to meet to morrow in the Afternoon at Two of the Clock in the House and afterwards every Thursday at the same hour and place And this Committee is Ordered to have the like Power as the other Grand Committees of the whole House have This Vote being carried for a Grand Committee as to Irish Affairs a Cabal of Friends to the Earl of Strafford sent down post unto him into York-shire to acquaint him that they apprehended a Design against him in the making of this Committee and left it to his own Election whether he would stay still on the Head of his Army or come up to the Parliament But if he did incline to come up that he would at his first appearance Impeach some Members of both Houses if he had Evidence for the same of being privy to the bringing the Scotch Army into this Kingdom and told him It was his wisdom to begin first and not to be first Impeached as the Earl of Bristol was by the great Duke of Buckingham The said Earl upon the receipt of this Advertisement suddenly resolved to come up and abide the Test of Parliament But his Friends then with him in the North told him That his frank appearance would make Politâ—ans doubt whether he did thereby assume his Judgment and wonted Prudence to go thus from his Army to the Parliament where his Wisdom could not but know that the Scots and Scotizing-English had resolved his destruction and therefore said they unto him It were better to keep under the safe-guard of the English Army at his Command from which he had acquired some affection or retire to the Army in Ireland then being also at his Devotion or take Sanctuary in some Forreign Parts till fair weather might invite him home neither said they would Discretion Vote it a betraying of his Innocency to decline a Trial whereby the means of Factions raised in England and Scotland by his malicious Prosecutors and backed with Power his Innocency could not protect him They further told him that if Sentence should pass against him for Non-appearance yet he had kept his freedom till better times when he might have occasion to do His Master better Service abroad than in Council at White-hall But the said Earl conceiving he had got good Evidence in the North that the Scots came in by Invitation and Confederacy between the Heads of the Covenanters and some of the English Members of both Houses and having digested such his Intelligence almost into the form of an Impeachment he posted up with the same intending to present it to the House of Peers as soon as he arrived there But on Wednesday Nov. 11th the House of Commons being acquainted by a Member that there was a business of great weight to be imparted desired the House that the Lobby without might be first cleared and the Key of the House brought up to the Table which was done accordingly and as the House had entred into debate about the Earl of Strafford there came a Message from the Lords by the Lord Chief Justice Bramstom and Judge Foster That the King had commanded the Lords Commissioners who were appointed to Treat with the Scots Commissioners at Rippon to give an Account to both Houses of Parliament of that which passed there and at York and thereupon the Lords desire there may be a meeting by a Committee of both Houses this Afternoon in the Painted-Chamber at Three of the Clock if the occasions of this House will give leave At this time many Members of the House conceived this Message was now sent to get Intelligence what private debate was in hand The House of Commons returned this Answer by the same Messengers That at this time they were in Agitation of very Weighty and Important Affairs and therefore they do doubt they shall not be ready to give them a meeting this Afternoon as the Lords desire but as soon as they may they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own After the Messengers were withdrawn the House proceeded in the Debate they were in before and appointed a Committee to prepare matter upon the said Debate for a Conference with the Lords concerning the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 and named seven Members viz. Mr. Pym Mr. Stroud Mr. St. Iohn Lord Digby Sir Iohn Clotworthy Sir Walter Earle and Mr. Hampden Which select Committee retired immediately into the Committee-Chamber to prepare Matter of a Conference to be prayed with the Lords and a Charge against the Earl of Strafford The said Committee presently returned to the House and reported the Matter to them referred Whereupon it was Resolved upon the Question That a Message be sent from this House to the Lords in the Name of this House and of all the Commons of England to accuse Thomas Lord Wentworth Earl of Strafford Lord Lieutenant of Ireland of High Treason and to desire that he may be Sequestred from Parliament and be Committed to Prison and that within some convenient time this House will resort to their Lordships with particular Accusations and Articles against him Mr. Pym went up with this Message to the Lords and at his Return made this Report to the House That he had Repaired to the Lords and there in the Name of this House and of all the Commons of England did Accuse the said Earl of Strafford
of High Treason and that he had also delivered the other Particulars he had in Charge Their Lordships Answer was That they do desire to take this weighty Matter into their serious Consideration and will speedily send an Answer by Messengers of their own Afterwards Mr. Pym was sent up to the Lords with a Message that some fit course be taken that there may be free Passage between England and Ireland notwithstanding any Restraint made there to the contrary The same day came a Message from the Lords by the two Chief Justices That the Lords have taken into serious Consideration the Accusation sent from this House against the Earl of Strafford and have Sequestred him from the House and have Committed him in safe Custody to the Messenger of their House and they will move his Majesty that the Passage from Ireland into England may be open notwithstanding any Restraint made there to the contrary The Message delivered by Mr. Pym was in manner following My Lords The Knights Citizens and Burgesses now Assembled in the Commons House of Parliament have received Information of divers Traiterous Designs and Practices of a great Peer of this House and by vertue of a Command from them I do here in the Name of the Commons now Assembled in Parliament and in the Name of all the Commons of England Accuse Thomas Earl of Strafford Lord Lieutenant of Ireland of High Treason And they have Commanded me further to desire your Lordships that he may be Sequestred from the Parliament and forthwith committed to Prison They further Commanded me to let you know that they will within a very few days resort to your Lordships with the particular Articles and Grounds of this Accusation The Earl being required to withdraw it was debated by the Peers Whether he should be Imprisoned on a general Accusation without any particular act of Treason charged against him or not But upon the question it was carried in the Affirmative and he being called in kneeled at the Bar and after standing up the Lord-Keeper spake to him as followeth My Lord of Strafford The House of Commons in their own Name and in the Name of the whole Commons of England have this day Accused your Lordship to the Lords of the Higher House of Parliament of High Treason the Articles they will in a few days produce in the mean time they have desired of my Lords and my Lords have accordingly Resolved That your Lordship shall be committed into safe Custody to the Gentleman-Usher and be Sequestred from the House till your Lordship shall clear your self of the Accusations that shall be laid against you And thereupon he was immediately taken into Custody by Iames Maxwell Usher of the Black Rod. Thursday Novemb. 12th 1640. A Message came from the Lords by the Lord Chief Justice Littleton and the Lord Chief Baron Davenport That the Lords have Commanded Us to let You know that in pursuit of your desire Yesterday to have the Ports open between Ireland and England some of the Lords had moved His Majesty in it and it shall be done speedily and effectually This day the House fell into serious Debate concerning Sir George Ratcliff an Intimate of the Lord Lieutenants of Ireland in whom he reposed great Trust and Confidence and by the discourse was as if he were guilty of High Treason in endeavouring to subvert the Fundamental Laws and that he did joyn with the Earl to bring in an Army from Ireland into this Kingdom and had joined with the said Earl to use Regal Power and to deprive the Subjects of this Kingdom of their Liberties It was moved that he might be sent for over as also for Sir Robert King who is a material Witness against the Earl of Strafford But for as much as they were Members of the Parliament then sitting in Ireland it was referred to a Committee viz. Mr. St. Iohns Mr. Selden Mr. Ieofrey Palmer Mr. Solicitor Mr. Maynard Mr. Grimston Mr. Chadwell Which Committee had Power to consider what was fit to be done in sending for Sir George Ratcliff and Sir Robert King in regard they are Members of the said Parliament now sitting in Ireland and to present it to the Consideration of this House and are to meet to morrow Morning at Seven of the Clock in the Committee-Chamber Ordered Mr. Speaker be intreated to be here this Afternoon to sit by at the Great Committee for Irish Affairs and if there be Cause to resume the House And accordingly the Grand Committee of the whole House sate this Afternoon upon the Irish Affairs and the Speaker sate by according to Order There came word that the Lords were come and expected the Committee of this House at the Conference concerning the Proceedings at the great Council at York Mr. Speaker assumed the Chair and it was moved That the Committees that sate in other places might be sent for to attend the Conference that those Gentlemen might be sent for by the Mace that were gone before to the Conference The House rose and the Committee went up to meet the Committee of the Lords at the Conference and Mr. Speaker adjourned the House and went home Friday Novemb. 13th 1640. Ordered that the Committee for preparing the Charge against the Lord Lieutenant being now Sine die meet this Afternoon at Four of the Clock in the Treasury-Chamber which Committee has Power to receive all such Petitions and Papers as may conduce to the business and have likewise Power to send for Records Papers Parties and Witnesses or any other thing that they shall think may conduce to the perfecting that Charge The King's Solicitor Reported from the Committee appointed to consider of the manner of sending for Sir George Ratcliff and Sir Robert King being as is inform'd Members of the Parliament in Ireland That the Committee were of Opinion That it is better to examine this Matter according to the Rules and Foundations of this House than to rest upon scattered Instances They distinguished between the Case of Sir George Ratcliff and Sir Robert King thus We find an Information given which if it be true of High Treason against Sir George Ratcliff then there is no doubt but in Case of High Treason Priviledge of Parliament neither here nor there doth reach to protect him but that Sir George Ratcliff may be sent for though a Member in Parliament there this was the Opinion of the Committee For the other Sir Robert King the Case did differ for to send for him to testifie in any Case were of dangerous Consequence or to send for him to testifie in the Kings Bench in Case of Treason where the Court doth ordinarily sit but this Case differs between sending for a Member of Parliament to give Evidence in any ordinary thing or in any ordinary Court for the Parliament is a Court that doth not ordinarily sit a Court of the great Affairs of the Kingdom therefore to be sent for hither
give Notice of it to this House Sir George Ratcliff being already sent for by Order of this House upon an Information of High Treason Resolved upon the Question That the Earl of Craford's Troop and those other Officers in the Army that go under the Name of Reformadoes are unnecessary Charge and fit to be spared and that my Lord General be moved by Message from this House thereunto Resolved That those Companies or other Officers that shall be thus Casheer'd by the Lord General shall be paid to the Eighth of December next Tuesday December 1. 1640. A Message from the Lords by Baron Trevor and Iudge Bartley The Lords have sent Us to this House to desire a present Conference in the Painted Chamber with the same Committee that was concerning the matter of the free Conference Yesterday Answer returned by the same Messengers This House has taken into Consideration the Message of the Lords and they return this Answer That they will give a meeting presently as is desired Mr. Pym Reports from the Conference this day That the Lords Committee with whom we had a free Conference Yesterday took the Matter into Consideration and their Resolution is That such Members of the House of Commons as they shall make choice of shall be present from time to time at the preparatory Examinations concerning the Earl of Strafford The Lord Keeper expected we should say something We told them We had no Warrant for a Conference was desired concerning the matter of free Conference and that a free Conference was not desired the Question they would have been satisfied in was Whether we did intend to have the Examinations taken publick in the House or by a private Committee I answered We had no Commission for a free Conference The same Committee that were appointed to draw up the Charge against the Earl of Strafford are to be present at the Preparatory Examinations of Witnesses before the Lords to present such Questions unto the Lords as they shall think fit thereupon and after a full Examination to present the whole state of the business to this House A Message to be sent to the Lords to acquaint them that the House is ready by some Members of this House to present divers Witnesses to be examined and such questions as they shall desire that those Witnesses so propounded by them may be all examined one after another with speed and secresie Thursday morning is peremptorily appointed for Sir George Ratcliff to appear here and if he come not then a Message is to be sent to the Lords to desire them to move His Majesty for a Proclamation to be ordered against him to bring him in Power is given to the Committee that is to be present at the preparatory Examination of Witnesses before the Lords to summon such Witnesses to be examined to morrow as they shall think fit Mr. Maynard's Report from the Conference Yesterday The Lords said They had taken the Message into Consideration sent by Mr. Pym some things were Resolved others not and for that purpose desired a free Conference whereas we did desire to examine some Members of this House they were ready to examine them when we should require They answered That the Peers of their House that shall be desired and all the Assistants of that House when they shall be thereunto required shall be examined upon Oath and next for the time and secresie They said they should be speedily examined and Examinations secretly kept Thursday December 3. 1640. A Message brought from the Lords by my Lord Chief Justice Littleton and Judge Bartley That according to a desire of this House by a late Message they have deputed certain of their Members to take the Examination of Witnesses in the Case of the Earl of Strafford which they will be ready to perform in the presence of such Members of this House as shall be deputed to that purpose Ordered That the Earl of Kildares Petition presented to the Grand Committee for Irish Affairs be referred to the Sub-Committee for those Affairs Friday December 4. 1640. Ordered That those Members of this House that be appointed to be present at the preparatory Examinations before the Lords be required to declare that by their Duty they owe to this House they are obliged to keep all those Examinations secret Those Eight appointed for that Service did make all of them Protestations to that purpose Ordered That those Eight or any Four of them may be present at the preparatory Examinations before the Lords Mr. Selden Mr. Dutton Mr. Crew Sir Peter Hayman Sir Harbottle Grimston Sir Henry Anderson Sir Nevil Poole Sir Thomas Barrington Saturday The Petition of Richard Heaton and Lyonell Farrington were read and Farrington called in did avow his Petition the Petitions are referred to the Committee appointed to draw up the Charge against the Earl of Strafford to make use of it if they shall see Cause December 26th 1640. Ordered That the Committee appointed to draw up the Charge against the Earl of Strafford shall have Power to examine Witnesses concerning Sir George Ratcliff and to prepare a Charge against him and to present it to this House Tuesday December 29th 1640. The Articles against Sir George Ratcliff Read Resolved upon the Question That this House shall Accuse Sir George Ratcliff Knight of High Treason in the Name of all the Commons of England That these Articles thus Read shall be the Ground of this Accusation That a Message shall be sent forthwith to the Lords to Accuse Sir George Ratcliff Knight of High Treason in the Name of this House and of all the Commons of England and that very speedily they will bring Articles against him Resolved upon the Question That the Articles prepared by the Committee against Sir George Ratcliff and Read here shall be engrossed against to morrow to be sent to the Lords as a Charge against him A Message sent from the Lords by the Master of the Rolls and Judge Reeves The Lords have Commanded Us to say to You That whereas there came a Message from this House to Accuse Sir George Ratcliff of High Treason They would know Whether they should presently take care to make safe his Person Answer returned by the same Messengers That this House has taken their Lordships Message into Consideration and will forthwith return them Answer by Messengers of their own Mr. Pym went up to the Lords to acquaint them that this day the House of Commons gave no Instructions to their former Messengers concerning the Committing of Sir George Ratcliff because his Person is already in safe Custody in the Gate-house and they intended to have acquainted their Lordships with it when they had produced the Articles against him which would have been very shortly but since they are prevented by their Lordships they refer what to do in it to their Lordships Mr. Pym brings Answer from the Lords of his Message That concerning
he stood within little distance of my Lord when he spake the words and hath not been deaf above two months and two other Witnesses concur fully with him For Doctor Duncombe whether he be the man that laid Aspersions in the North on some Noble Lords I know not but his Testimony only is that he heard so from one that spake it at the Table not upon Oath and not knowing what use would be made of it And another Witness shall be produced that will speak to the occasion and that it was not the matter of Knighting-money Sir Thomas Leyton being asked how long he hath had this Infirmity in his hearing Answered That he got a great Cold since he came to Town and had this Imperfection since Christmas and had his hearing well before Being asked how far he sate from my Lord of Strafford He Answered Four yards off My Lord of Strafford desired it might be asked the Witness Whether he sate on the Seat where the Sheriff uses to fit he answered Affirmatively His Lordship excepted against his Testimony himself sitting where the President uses to sit betwixt my Lord Chief Baron and Mr. Justice Vernon And he Appealed to my Lord Chief Baron Whether the Presidents Seat and the Sheriffs Seat be not as far distant very near as far as from his Lordships then station to the Lord Steward But the Committee observed it not to be material that there should be any Geometrical measure but be three four five six or seven yards off Here the Committee offered other Witnesses but my Lord of Strafford desired their Lordships Judgment Whether they should not bring all together which the Lord Steward declared they might as to this Point Sir David Fowles being produced was excepted against My Lords He is no competent Witnesse he lying in the Fleet on a Sentence in the Star-Chamber at my Suit being fined for divers things he had said which concerned my self which depended on this in question and conducing to it He comes not at his own Request or Suit but in a Suit that concerns His Majesty and the Commonwealth and might offer the Presidents own Rule in the Case but that the Law speaks for him that a Witness ought to be heard in this Cause though there have been particular ill affections between them and your Lordships well know how to compare him with other Witnesses and to value him accordingly This hath been Resolved in the Case of Sir Pierce Crosby that he should be sworn and then value his Testimony as the Lords shall see Cause and this may be put into the same way Sir David Fowles being sworn the Lord Steward put them in mind of the former Caution that their Lordships would judge the value of his Testimony the Committee not admitting what was excepted against him he being not to obtain any thing for himself nor his own Interest concerned but produced for the King and Commonwealth and therefore an indifferent Witness in the Case And then being Interrogated touching the words of Comparison between the King 's little Finger and the Loins of the Law whether he heard them and the occasion Sir David Fowles answered He heard him say the very same words That there were some for Law and nothing but Law but the King 's little Finger should be heavier on them than the Loins of the Law The occasion he cannot well remember but there was some discontent taken by my Lord against him he being desired by a Messenger to levy Mony to mend a Bridge he told the Messenger He could not well do it of himself for there was a Statute as he took it 24 H. 8. that appoints four Commissioners to be at the doing of such Service and he being but One durst not undertake to do it Besides he said He must see an Order or Warrant from the Sessions else he could not do it and none was shewed Some other Exceptions he took to the unlawfulness of the business and the Messenger reported this to my Lord and that he conceived was the cause my Lord broke out so violently against him But being Interrogated on what occasion the words in question were spoken He answered Before my Lord went to Ireland he made a Speech to the whole County and desired them to go on in their Service and so brake out Some are all for Law but they shall find the Kings little Finger heavier on them than the Loins of the Law And this is all he can remember Sir William Ingram sworn and examined touching his knowledge of these words Answered That he was on the Bench at that time Sir Thomas Leyton was Sheriff and he heard my Lord speak these words Some of you are all for Law but you shall find that the King 's little Finger is heavier than the Loins of the Law but he doth not remember the occasion The main point I must insist on is That the very words if they had been spoken by me as they are laid concerning which I call God to witness I have spoken the truth and the occasion It is no Treason within the Statute And that being a point of Law I crave leave to reserve my self according to your Lordships Order that my Counsel in time fitting and proper may speak as concerning that in point of Law We shall close this Article the last thing mentioned by his Lordship was spoken to before as to the words we had five Witnesses express in the Point and therefore shall expect your Lordships Judgment in that And so the Court was adjourned The Fourth day Thursday March 25. 1641. THE Third Article The Charge THat the Realm of Ireland having béen time out of mind annexed to the Imperial Crown of this His Majesties Realm of England and governed by the same Laws The said Earl being Lord-Deputy of that Realm to bring His Majesties Liege-Subjects of that Kingdom likewise into dislike of His Majesties Government and intending the Subversion of the Fundamental Laws and setled Government of that Realm and the destruction of His Majesties Liege-people there did upon the 30th day of September in the Ninth Year of His now Majesties Reign in the City of Dublin the chief City of that Realm where His Majesties Privy-Council and Courts of Iustice do ordinarily reside and whither the Nobility and Gentry of that Realm do usually resort for Iustice in a publick Speech before divers of the Nobility and Gentry of that Kingdom and before the Mayor Aldermen and Recorder and many Citizens of Dublin and other His Majesties Liege-people declare and publish That Ireland was a Conquered Nation and that the King might do with them what he pleased And speaking of the Charters of former Kings of England made to that City He further then said That their Charters were nothing worth and did bind the King no further than he pleased I Humbly move your Lordship That since diverse things were spoken by the Witnesses Yesterday which
a true Testimony my Lord of Strafford presently pursues him and lays Imputations and scorns upon him and therefore humbly prayed to be spared else that he might have liberty to justifie himself Whence the Manager observed What it is to fall on Witnesses persons extravagantly when they produce them and therefore desired my Lord of Strafford might forbear it being a great disheartening to Witnesses My Lord of Corke added That my Lord of Strafford accused him to have a Pardon whereas he knows he hath none That he is an honest man and wishes my Lord of Strafford could leave the Kingdom with as much Reputation as himself had left it And for the matter demanded his Lordship said He was at the hearing of the Cause and Voted against the Plaintiff but whether the major part Voted against him or no he knows not Being asked What words my Lord of Strafford said about making a party in that Cause He Answered That he thinks he spake these words He did not think there would have been a party against him for if he had he would not have brought it to that Table for the Petition was preferred to himself Sir Adam Lofius being asked What Sir Robert Meredith told him of his part in the Bargain He Answered That he heard him say He had no Title or Interest in it but only his name used in trust but for whom he did not declare and that was all he said to him The Manager added That they have another Witness to prove that of the majority of the Vote my Lord of Ely but he is sick And so the Manager summed up the Evidence and observed it to be something that my Lord of Strafford should pitch upon the very sum of 500 l. that Mr. Hibbots had by way of increase That the Order was made with an examination of Witnesses on pretence of Fraud where the Lady denied it on Oath and that though it was so great a fraud in the Lady to procure a Reversion for 2500 l. which was sold for 3000 l. and afterwards re-sold to the Lady for 7000 l. and so concluded that it is an Arbitrary Government drawn into my Lord of Strafford's own breast and the Inheritance of a great Estate taken from the King 's Subject without Rule of Law there being a Fine levied but being not retorned as the Commissioners are bound to retorn it he made an Order it should not be retorned and a Lady threatened with doubling and trebling the Fine and one of the Feoffees Sir Robert Meredith confesses it was for my Lord of Strafford And to prove that Sir Philip Persival acknowledged so much Mr. Fitzgarret was Interrogated What Sir Philip Persival said who thereupon answered That Sir Philip had often told him the Purchase was to the use of my Lord-Deputy now Earl of Strafford That he hath had occasion of Conference with him about the Estate and hath sometimes discoursed with him concerning the Estate wherein his name was used That he the Deponent might understand how far it concerned him telling him that the Estate would one day be questioned And Sir Philip protested he never knew of this business till his name was put into it and he came to Seal the Writings and that it was to the use of my Lord-Deputy Some Questions arising about the number of Hands to the Order being in all 14. The Manager observed That more have subscribed than those that gave their Vote being a Cause introduced by my Lord of Strafford That all subscribed the Orders as well those against them as those for them and Appealed therein to my Lord of Cork The Course being when an Order is made to bring it to the Table another day and take all the Hands of them present and he added That their Lordships that are Counsellors know that Course to be used here My Lord of Corke being asked to that Point Answered That he knows nothing of it The Lord Primate of Ireland his Examination was offered and was admitted accordingly to be read being taken 30. March 1641. To the fourth Inter. That when the Major part of the Council-Board go one way and the Minor part another way when the Order is drawn up the Minor part Signs it as well as the Major The Lord-Deputy alledging it to be the practise of the Council of England and he himself had done it but before my Lord of Strafford's coming he never knew it to be so Lord Renula being asked to the same Point Answered That he doth not remember that Order to be of force there till of late years and that my Lord of Strafford hath declared to them that it is the practise of England and when the Major part doth subscribe though others be of different Opinions they are involved in it and must subscribe The Lord Savil desired he might be asked Whether he ever knew that when the Major part did Vote against an Order they did subscribe it The Manager answered That that 's their grief and though there be no such Course yet if it concern my Lord of Strafford he will make it a course Lord Renula being asked Whether he were present at the Council-Table when this Vote was given and what he heard concerning the Vote He Answered That he was not there and he heard very little of it that the most he heard of it was since the coming of this Gentleman Mr. Hoy into England and that to his best remembrance he heard Sir William Parsons now Lord Chief Justice say He was informed the Major Vote went against Sir Robert Meredith And so the Manager concluded the Charge as to the Eighth Article saying That here is a Proceeding for a Free-hold contrary to the Fundamental Laws of the Kingdom contrary to the Instructions in the manner and measure as their Lordships had heard My Lord of Strafford after some time given for the re-collecting of his Notes began his Reply in substance as followeth I will with your Lordships noble permission justifie my self against the Charge of High-Treason exhibited against me Having been blamed by the Gentlemen at the Bar for going to matters not pertinent I shall henceforth keep my self to that within the Charge trusting that the things wherewith I am not Charged shall not dwell with your Lordships to my prejudice but that your Lordships will in your Nobleness and Justice reserve to your selves till in its proper place and kind I shall Answer thereunto conceiving that I am to Answer only to Treason not to Misdemeanor The Charge opened is a Decree given by the Deputy and Council of Ireland to the subversion of the Fundamental Laws and to the bringing in of an Arbitrary and Tyrannical Government Whether it be so or no or whether by any manner of Construction it can be brought as an Argument to convince me of High-Treason I conceive I am to Answer Whether the Decree be in it self just or unjust is not the question but
Decree and he conceives the major part of the Table did so too he is very confident of it and he doth the rather believe it because he never knew the contrary practise at that Board in any Case besides he knows the Clerk of the Council is a very faithful and careful Servant being a sworn Officer and it is the duty of his Place to draw up Orders according to the major part of the Voices and that no member of the Board took Exception at the signing of this Order that he knows For the matter of Imprisoning the Lady my Lord of Strafford offered That he hopes it 's no great offence for the Deputy of Ireland to say as much to a Subject that 's bound to perform the Order of the Board and doth not I ought not under favour favour le ts in that Case for if Obedience be not had it is to no purpose Orders should be made For the words concerning Fining of her I offer to your Lordships Confideration that one that gives Testimony thereof is Mr. Hoy who is a party interessed and to whom the benefit will accrue of whatsoever shall be recovered and that your Lordships may remember what a ready story he told and wronged his memory to desire to speak out of his Notes for I never heard one speak more readily and conceive he is not in this particular so intire a Witness to convince me That the other Witness is Mr. Hybbots himself a weak old man that hath not Judgment sufficient but says forward and backward and may be taken any way Therefore his Testimony is not so strong and binding That suppose I had said the words they cannot make a Treason Fining in cases of Contempts being usual in Chancery here to enforce men to conform to Decrees However I stand not charged with it and when it comes in its proper place and time I trust I shall make a fair and just Answer in it The last thing in the Charge is the conveying of the Lands to Sir Robert Meredith and others to my use which I deny in my Answer and under favour deny it still For the Witnesses offered I except against Mr. Hoy as I must under favour as often as I mention it That the words spoken by Sir Robert Meredith is only his saying and offered here as a Report and when Sir Robert speaks for himself I believe he will say another thing That the Testimony of Mr. Fitzgarrett is but what Sir Philip Percival said and when Sir Philip comes to be examined himself I trust Your Lordships will find it otherwise I having never spoke to Sir Philip in all my life touching the business When my Lady Hybbotts complains of the Injustice of the Decree before Your Lordships I hope I shall clear it in its proper place but in the mean time it is no part of my Charge and I dare say they would not offer such a thing in Charge to my Lord Keeper or my Lord Chief Justice or if they should offer it they know they should have a rebuke for Lawyers must keep within the limits of the Charge and therefore in this particular I may reserve my self without prejudice in Your Lordships Opinions till it comes to its proper place where I hope I shall justifie my Carriage to be Honest and Faithful according to the Trust reposed in me His Lordship having finished his Defence the Manager began his Reply thereunto in substance as followeth That he shall not need to labour much in making a Replication little being answered to the Charge which he recited and opened That his Lordships Proceedings have in this matter been contrary to Law they must rest on their Lordships memory the Act of Parliament cited before the Instructions and the Proclamation the Exercise of a Jurisdiction on the Estate of a Lady without the least colour of Jurisdiction whereas if there had been any it would have been heard of That his Lordship answers nothing to his sending for the party Petitioning bidding him go on with the Suit and Prophesying that he might have 500 l. more That perhaps it is not material whether the Order were just or unjust and my Lord of Strafford will answer only to the Jurisdiction But we observe that yesterday he made a great flourish to the justness of a Decree let the Jurisdiction be what it will and when he cannot justifie that then he declines it That my Lord his Pulse is still beating that this is no Treason yet it is an Article to prove and conduce to the General Charge of subverting the Laws and though he pretends that these Circumstances of purchasing the Lands to his own use and speaking to the party to proceed and his Threats are not to the purpose yet under favour these and his saying when he perceived a great part to Vote against him though not the major part as he says that he could have kept it in his own hands do come home to the point That he hath exercised an Arbitrary Power specially when it is for his own benefit His pretence that this Cause was heard before the Lords of the Council and therein differs from that of my Lord Mountnorris is no answer at all for the Lords of the Council have nothing to do in matters of Freehold or Inheritance when it concerns not Plantation or the Church or is specially recommended That they concur with my Lord Primates Examination that the Clerk of the Council should draw up Orders according to the major part of the Votes but what he hath done in this case they know not and how far a Deputy might prevail with the Clerk of the Council they submit And there is an express proof of one of the Counsellors that there was 11. or 12. against the Order and nine for it And whereas it is said he is but a single Witness my Lord of Corke says though he remembers not which way the major voice went yet he remembers very well my Lord Deputy exprest those words concerning the making of a Party which shews that something was done that did not agree with his will And another Witness says that Sir William Parsons told him that the major Vote was against the Order And whereas my Lord Strafford pretends that the Privy-Counsellor that told Mr. Hoy there were more Voices for his Mother than against her must be my Lord Mountnorris That is denied and we desire Mr. Hoy may in that point explain himself He hath called Sir Philip Maynwaring and others that would have testified the truth to his advantage but not one of them expresses any thing to their knowledge but as they believe it because by the Duty of his place the Clerk of the Council ought to have drawn it up according to the Votes The Threats to Imprison and Fine the Lady and the kind of Threats are proved by two Witnesses with this addition by one That he would crack her Estate which shew a great fervency in my Lord
way-layed the People and took away their Yarne and Cloth and seized on what the Merchants had bought III. When any came to the Markets they went to the Houses of poor people and took up the Hutches where their Cloth lay and seized on all leaving not so much as to cover their Nakedness IV. They took away all the poor peoples Iron Pots on pretence of another Proclamation so that on this great Cruelty which exceeded Pharoes the poor Children were forced to go into the Fields to eat Grass with the Beasts of the Field where they lay down and died by Thousands If it be deny'd it will be proved by Twenty Thousand and the Iudges of Assize c. procured my Lord Lieutenant to Recall all the foresaid Proclamations Mr. Fitzgarret being Interrogated as to the Value of this Commodity to the Kingdom of Ireland He Answered That he hath known the Province of Ulster and had occasion to converse with the best of it for 24 years last past That he was for 8 years imployed in the Circuit for these parts and observed the Natives made a very great Commodity of Yarne and Linnen-Cloth That he may safely call it the Staple-Commodity of that part of the Kingdom That the Merchants buying their Yarne and transporting it to Lancaster it was a very great Commodity and many lived on it That the Proclamation and Execution of it as he was informed by a man of very good rank Impoverished the whole Province especially the Irish Natives of whom few have Lands or Estates but live as Tenants and the Lands there not yielding Wheat or Barley in abundance as other Countries they convert the best Lands to the sowing of Flax and make a very great Commodity of it That he had continual conference especially in Term-time with the best in those parts and especially Mr. Robert Braithwait Agent for my Lord of Essex and Dr. Cook of whose two Towns one is supported by this Commodity and Dr. Cook said there hath been a hundred pounds worth of Yarn in a day sold and bought in that place and by this means the Markets are wasted the People impoverished and that he the said Dr. Cook thinks in his Conscience many thousands are famished by the scarcity of Money that ensued on the seizing of this and the extremity was such that one of the Deputies of those mens authorising went into the house of a Scotchman in the parts of Ulster himself being in England or Scotland would open the Chests and used such cruelty that they thrust a stick into the Womans throat and she died of it and the man was tried for it as he was informed And so Mr. Maynard concluded the Charge supposing it to be sufficiently proved After a little respite my Lord of Strafford made his defence in substance as followeth That in this Charge he hears something tending to Oppression but nothing at all towards Treason for which he is only to answer That the intention of these Proclamations touching Yarn was certainly very good and he thinks the power very lawfully executed being but temporary to take away an abuse and make it better for the Common-wealth That he conceives not how these Proclamations should be particularly laid on him for he hath very good company goes along with him being set out by the Deputies and Council and affixed to them the Hands of my Lord Loftus the Lord Primate the Archbishop of Dublin Earl of Ormond Lord Dillon Sir Adam Loftus the two Chief Justices and others That he had rather answer all than impute any thing to any body else but he believes their Lordships will conceive he is not particularly answerable for things done by the advice of the Council as for the best That he conceives they had power to issue these Proclamations as in other things was frequent as in Drawing by the Horse tail burning the Straw and so taking the Corn from it to bring them from these Irish Customs to the English Manners So in this that their winding of Thread might be brought off with more conveniency as being of so much more value for the unwinding was as much trouble as the thing was worth so that the authority was lawful and well executed in the granting of it He craved leave to tell their Lordships wherefore it was being desirous to regulate this business more than any other thing whatsoever And it was out of that Duty and Service he did and ever should owe to the English Nation however for the present he may not be thought one he had those affections and shall have to his death to wish the Kingdom all prosperity and happiness in all the parts of it That at his coming over he did observe the Wooll of that Kingdom did increase very much that if it should there be wrought into Cloth it would be a very great prejudice in time to the Clothing trade of England and therefore he was willing as much as he might lawfully and fairly to discourage that Trade That on the other side he was desirous to set up the trade of Linnen cloth which would be beneficial there and not prejudice the trade of England But it was extreamly to his loss for he says he lost 3000 l. and the Stewards Chamber being searched and it appearing so the Accounts were delivered back again so that he conceives they had lawful power so to do till a Law might make it more certain and setled and then he is answerable for nothing in all the rest because the execution was nothing to him and the abuses of the Officers he is not to answer for of whom Croky was the principal Executor and if there was an Offender he is the greatest Offender himself and my Lord Rainalaugh tells their Lordships plainly and truly that upon complaint of the ill execution of it it was absolutely recalled and that within two years so if it were a fault he was not incorrigible but willing to amend it on the first notice For the Warrant there is nothing proved of any thing amiss in him but it goes only to second the Proclamation and that there should be assistance in the due and just execution of it only it says the Yarn shall be brought to Dublin there to be disposed of as he should direct but there is no proof of any brought to him only my Lord Rainalaugh mentions a Cart-load brought to Dublin as the fellow told him and Croky says some was brought to Dublin but he knows not how much and it was converted partly to his use partly to Carpenters but he is a single witness whereas my Lord Rainalaugh says there was taken at Athlone as he was told a Cart-load of Yarn and Sir Iohn Clotworthy says they starved by multitudes in Ulster my Lord of Strafford said he could not conceive how so little a quantity taken in Conaught should be an occasion of starving multitudes in Ulster nor the small quantities taken by Croky but if there were so
three as he takes it Being Asked in what Case it was He Answered A Merchant of Manchester trusted with Money or Commodities and being not able to pay him he sued him and so far that he got a Warrant and this was before my Lord Deputy on a Paper-Petition Being Asked How long the Soldiers remained there He Answered some three or four dayes till the Man surrendred himself to the Sergeant at Armes Edmond Berne being Sworn and Interrogated How many Soldiers were laid upon himself by vertue of this Warrant and For what cause and What Contempt and What was the loss and Whether the Soldiers were Armed He in his several Answers Deposed That there came to his House Ten of my Lord Deputies own Foot-guard and an Officer in the County of Wicklowe in Ireland in the Bernes Countrey 12 Miles from Dublin That it was on the 17 th or 18 th of October 1639 and they came on his Land under colour of a Contempt and there lay 15 dayes In which time they consumed and devoured all his Goods and Chattels they found at that time They Thrasht out three Ricks of Corn one of Wheat one of Rye the other of Oates which were very well worth 50 l. at the least After they had Thrashed this Corn and devoured the Victuals they found in the house and about the house they sent some of this Corn to a Market-Town within three Miles called Bray and that they sold for Tobacco Aquavitae some Beer and Victuals for themselves And they would not be content with this to satisfie themselves on his Goods but they must bring in the Women of the Town and made the Women drink and offered to Ravish them but that some of the Town came in to Rescue them That after they had consumed all his Goods they broke up his Tenants doors killed their Geese their Hens and destroyed their Victuals and when they had destroyed all his Tenants Goods they came on the Town-people which were not his Tenants and broke open their doors and struck them and eat their Victuals and killed their Geese and Hens and after they came to his Tenant one Timothy Wells they came on his Land and understanding he was his Tenant they took away 40 English Sheep and brought them to his house and there that night they killed two of them That his Tenant understanding them to be there referred himself to the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland then and Petitioned to this purpose that is my Lord Dillon and Sir Christopher Wainsford that Mr. Wells which was his Tenant had an Order to take away his Sheep from the Soldiers and then the Soldiers Reply'd That since he had got an Order to take away his Sheep they were sorry they did not kill more of them That they were not content to have Wood which was for his the Deponents own fuell and to destroy that but they burnt his Partitions his very House-door sold his Trunck his Bedsteads his Dining-Table and all they could light on in his house that after this time he was not able to keep house but left his Wife and Children to the courtesie of his friends and was fain to flie his Countrey and to serve in the Low Countreys as a Soldier that he may very well take it on his oath that this loss was at least 500 l. out of his way for he was not able to sow the Fallowes and was fain to break up House and Home and was never able to keep House since That this was upon colour of a contempt upon a Petition preferred against him to my Lord Deputy by Mr. Thomas Archibald for a pretended debt of a matter of Ten pounds and these Soldiers were armed with Swords Musquets and Halbeards some of them Being Interrogated on my Lord of Strafford's motion whether he the Lord Strafford was then in Ireland He Answered That before the Soldiers came on his Land my Lord Deputy came to England But Mr. Palmer observed that the Warrant was from my Lord Deputy and Mr. Palmer added that all will refer to the time of the Warrant dormant Being asked what Warrant was shewed for laying on these numbers of Foot He Answered That he durst not come in their sight But Mr. Maynard observed that this was one of the men Savill did lay Soldiers on and therefore it behoved to be by that Warrant Being asked whether the Debt might not have been compounded for 5 l. and why he would not rather pay 5 l. than suffer prejudice to 500 l He Answered to the First Yes To the Second That he conceived the Debt not lawfully due Mr. Robert Kennedy being Sworn and Interrogated what he knew of the laying of Soldiers on the said Berne and the occasion and what they did He Answered That one Archibald preferred a Petition against Berne for a pretended Debt to my Lord Lieutenant and as his usual course was his Lordship would referr the matter to the two next Justices of Peace uninteressed and they to determine the matter by consent if they could else to certify that the party bringing the Petition to him the Deponent desired him to draw the Warrant according to my Lord-Lieutenants Order They sent a Warrant for Berne who appearing they examined the business and it was so trivial that he the Deponent desired them to compound it Berne stood on it that the Plaintiff ought to have none and would pay him none They certified my Lord Lieutenant After this Certificate he the Deponent heard not of it till he heard that Soldiers came to this Gentlemans Land and hearing of it and that some Tenants of his the Deponents were wronged by it he came thither and some of them he knew and asking by what authority they were there We come say they by Warrant of the Sergeant at Arms Mr. Pigott That the Deponent thereupon said Mr. Pigott hath no Warrant Yes say they my Lord Lieutenants and he directed us not to leave till Berne delivered his Body for a contempt That he the Deponent Answered Though you have a Warrant for lying on his Land you have no Warrant to destroy his Goods for they were selling his Corn and loaded the Horses that went through the Town That there was to the number of 8 or 12 of my Lords Guard armed with Pikes and Guns and Swords But my Lord of Strafford he thinks was not then in Ireland he was newly gone Being asked on my Lord of Strafford's motion whether he saw the Warrant under Pigotts hand He Answered He did not but the Soldiers told him Pigott laid them on the Land by virtue of my Lord Deputies Warrant Being asked how long Pigott had been a Sergeant He Answered About Ten years And whether there was any more than two He Answered No more that attended the State and Mr. Kenneday added that he wondred at the course for he never heard of any such course before my Lord of Straffords time Mr. Palmer here observed that they were
but only the Estimate of a Merchant and how far your Lordships will be guided by the Estimate of a Merchant I known not but I have had Trial of some of them and their Estimates never hold for they have alwayes told me I shall gain much and when I came to the point I gained nothing and if Sir George Ratcliffe should be Sworn to the Point he should say confidently that we are Fourscore and six thousand out of Purse and when he came out of Ireland but Fourscore thousand pounds received and this is the Profit Estimated by the great Merchants at a Hundred and Forty thousand pounds a year But at the worst it is but a Monopoly and a Monopoly of the best condition because it was begun by a Parliament I have seen many Monopolies question'd in Parliament and many overthrown in Parliament but I never heard a Monopoly charged for a Treason My Lords The next is the 13th Article and that is concerning the Flax business For that my Lords if I had thought it any way concerning me I could have cleared it in a very great measure But I had no private Interest in the business much less of private profit but onely an endeavour and desire to bring in the Trade of Linnen-Cloth to that Kingdom which would be much advantage to both Kingdoms and no prejudice to this Kingdom which a Woollen Trade would have been if set up these And the Prolcamation when it was found not so well liking to the People was called in of our own accord before it was question'd and so laid aside and given over For any matter of private Benefit you have no Witness but Crokay a Fellow brought out of Prison Here is but a single Witness and a sorry one a Fellow who by misbehaving and misusing the trust committed to him was turned out and upon the turning of him out the Proclamation was absolutely called in and now he comes to be a Witness being himself the onely offended in the Cause But I beseech your Lordships to think I have not lived with so mean a heart in the World that I should look to gain Four Nobles more or less upon a Cart Load of Flax It is very well known my thoughts have carryed me free enough from gaining so poor and petty a matter as that is I know nothing in the World of it no more than the man in the Moon but when it comes to be heard your Lordships will find me extreame pure in that for I thank God I have clear hands I assure you The 14th is waved by them concerning an Unlawful Oath given to Masters and Officers of Ships and it might very well be waved for I conceive it to be Warranted by the Law Sure I am it is both the Practice of England and Ireland and hath alwayes and at all times been practised and used and is onely for the preventing of Fraud and Deceipt in Merchants by not paying the Kings Duties and Customes The 15th is Answered already I hope The 16th doth Charge upon me certain Propositions I made before I went into Ireland And in good Faith my Lords you may see how short-sighted men may be to their own Actions for I did very well believe I should never have reaped any thing from those Propositions but Thanks I am sure they were well received then when they were offered to His Majesty and the Council and I must truely Confess I never thought they should be objected against me as a Fault My Lords The Proposition was That no Man should be allowed to Complain of Injustice or Oppression in Ireland unless he first addressed himself to the Deputy My Lords there was no Original Intent but onely to prevent Clamours and Unjust Vexations of the Kings Ministers there that after men had received Judgment of the Kings Courts they might not presently come and by Clamours call over a Chief Justice or a Chancellor or President to Answer here and be at charge of five or six hundred pounds unless they acquaint the Deputy with it that they might be righted in the place and this is Charged against me as a great Crime Truely my Lords I shall Confess and Amend any thing and trust other Judgments rather than mine own but I see not how this can Charge me as intending to subvert the Laws of the Land but rather to preserve them The other concernes a Proclamation That none shall depart the Kingdom without License My Lords for that I have shewed that no man out of that Kingdom can come without License but upon very great Penalties I have shewed likewise it was the desire of their own Agents some 15 or 16 years since That there might be such a Restraint and none might come over without License I have shewed you likewise the Instructions to my Lord of Faulkland by which he was Commanded in persuance of that Desire that none should come over without his License I have shewed the express Command of His Majesty to me to have it so I have shewed you likewise the Reasons of State why it should be so to prevent that practice and Intelligence which might otherwise arise betwixt them of that Nation serving under Tir-Connell and O Neale and likewise to prevent the going over and transplanting the Prime Nobility and Gentry to Seminaries and other such places there to be brought up and therefore in reason of State it is a Restraint and ought so to be But having these grounds of Law Warrant Practice Former Instruction and all Why this should be brought to me in particular Charge to Convince me of endeavouring the Subversion of the Laws I must submit to your Lordships My Lords There is in the latter part of this another Charge concerning the Sentenceing of one Parry who was Sentenced as I conceive very Justly and I have no more to answer for in that Sentence then any of the rest having but a single Voice and that I should answer for all I confess is something hard But there is no manner of Testimony in the World in this save the Testimony of Parry himself Now if Parry the Man offended his Testimony shall be taken against the Judge I know no Man can be safe and other Testimony is not offered and therefore I trust that that will easily fall off of it self The 17th is likewise waved and is in Truth of no great Consequence one way or other and therefore I shall give no other Answer to it It was well waved and had been as well left out having no great matter in it The 18th is likewise waved but it is that which sticks very heavy upon me and wherein I find my self as much afflicted as in any one part of the Charge For my Lords here I am Charged up and down to endeavour to draw upon my self a Dependance of the Papists in both Kingdomes of Ireland and England and that I have during the time of my Government restored diverse Mass-Houses in Dublin and elsewhere
Demands Causes Things and Matters whatsoever therein contained and within certain Precincts in the said Northern Parts therein specified and in such manner as by the said Schedule is limitted and appointed That amongst other things in the said Instructions it is directed That the said President and others therein appointed shall hear and determine according to the course of Procéedings in the Court of Star-Chamber divers Offences Deceits and Falsities therein mentioned whether the same be provided for by Acts of Parliament or not so that the Fines imposed be not less than by the Act or Acts of Parliament provided against those Offences is appointed That also amongst other things in the said Instructions it is directed That the said President and others therein appointed have Power to examine hear and determine according to the course of Proceedings in the Court of Chancery all manner of Complaints for any matter within the said Precincts as well concerning Lands Tenements and Hereditaments either Free-hold Customary or Copy-hold as Leases and other things therein mentioned and to stay Proceedings in the Court of Common Law by Injunction or otherwise by all ways and means as is used in the Court of Chancery And although the former Presidents of the said Council had never put in practise such Instructions nor had they any such Instructions yet the said Earl in the month of May in the said Eighth Year and divers years following did put in practice exercise and use and caused to be used and put in practice the said Commission and Instructions and did direct and exercise an exorbitant and unlawful Power and Iurisdiction over the Persons and Estates of His Majesties Subjects in those parts and did disinherit divers of His Majesties Subjects in those parts of their Inheritances Sequestred their Possessions and did Fine Ransome Punish and Imprison them and caused them to be Fined Ransomed Punished and Imprisoned to their Ruine and Destruction and namely Sir Coniers Darcy Sir John Bourcher and divers others against the Laws and in subversion of the same And the said Commission and Instructions were procured and issued by advice of the said Earl And he the said Earl to the intent that such Illegal and Unjust Power might be exercised with the greater Licence and Will did advise counsel and procure further Directions in and by the said Instructions to be given that no Prohibition be granted at all but in cases where the said Council shall exceed the limits of the said Instructions And that if any Writ of Habeas Corpus be granted the party be not discharged till the party perform the Decrée and Order of the said Council And the said Earl in the 13th Year of His Majesties Reign did procure a new Commission to himself and others therein appointed with the said Instructions and other unlawful Additions That the said Commission and Instructions were procured by the sollicitation and advice of the said Earl of Strafford II. That shortly after the obtaining of the said Commission dated the 21th of March in the Eighth Year of His Majesties Reign to wit the last day of August then next following he the said Earl to bring His Majesties Liege-people into a dislike of His Majesty and of His Government and to terrifie the Iustices of the Peace from executing of the Laws He the said Earl being then President as aforesaid and a Iustice of Peace did publiquely at the Assizes held for the County of York in the City of York in and upon the said last day of August declare and publish before the people there attending for the administration of Iustice according to Law and in the presence of the Iustices sitting that some of the Iustices were all for Law and nothing would please them but Law but they should find that the King 's little Finger should be heavier than the Loines of the Law III. That the Realm of Ireland having been time out of mind annexed to the Imperial Crown of this His Majesties Realm of England and Governed by the same Laws The said Earl being Lord Deputy of that Realm to bring His Majesties Liege-Subjects of that Kingdom likewise into dislike of His Majesties Government and intending the subversion of the Fundamental Laws and setled Government of that Realm and the destruction of His Majesties Liege-people there did upon the 30th day of September in the Ninth Year of His now Majesties Reign in the City of Dublin the chief City of that Realm where His Majesties Privy-Council and Courts of Iustice do ordinarily reside and whither the Nobility and Gentry of that Realm do usually resort for Iustice in a publick Speech before divers of the Nobility and Gentry of that Kingdom and before the Mayor Aldermen and Recorder and many Citizens of Dublin and other His Majesties Liege-people declare and publish That Ireland was a Conquered Nation and that the King might do with them what he pleased and speaking of the Charters of former Kings of England made to that City he further then said That their Charters were nothing worth and did bind the King no further than He pleased IV. That Richard Earl of Cork having sued out Process-in course of Law for recovery of his Possessions from which he was put by colour of an Order made by the said Earl of Strafford and the Council-Table of the said Realm of Ireland upon a Paper-Petition without Legal procéeding did the 20th day of February in the Eleventh Year of His now Majesties Reign threaten the said Earl being then a Péer of the said Realm to imprison him unless he would surcease his Suit and said That he would have neither Law nor Lawyers dispute or question his Orders And the 20th day of March in the said Eleventh Year the said Earl of Strafford speaking of an Order of the said Council-Table of that Realm made in the time of King James which concerned a Lease which the said Earl of Cork claimed in certain Rectories or Tythes which the said Earl of Cork alledged to be of no force said That he would make the said Earl and all Ireland know that so long as he had the Government there any Act of State there made or to be made should be as binding to the Subjects of that Kingdom as an Act of Parliament And did question the said Earl of Cork in the Castle-Chamber there upon pretence of breach of the said Order of Council-Table and did sundry other times and upon sundry other occasions by his words and spéeches arrogate to himself a Power above the Fundamental Laws and Established Government of that Kingdom and scorned the said Laws and Established Government V. That according to such his Declarations and Spéeches the said Earl of Strafford did use and exercise a Power above and against and to the subversion of the said Fundamental Laws and Established Government of the said Realm of Ireland extending such his Power to the Goods Fréeholds Inheritances Liberties and Lives of His Majesties Subjects of the said Realm and
Lords but that he spake only to the point of time My Lord of Strafford did here affirm it to be most certainly true That the Petition concerning the things Mr. Fitzgarret mentions was delivered at Council-Board and not in Parliament and desiring Mr. Fitzgarrets further explanation of himself He Answered That he conceives there were two Petitions one as he thinks concerning the performance of the Instructions of 1628. whereunto an Answer might be given at Council-Board and he believes it was subscribed by many of the Council There was another Petition of Grievances seeking redress of them and to whether of these his Lordship gave an Answer in Parliament he remembers not but believes there was an Answer made to both or one of them in full Parliament The Lord Gorminstone being demanded at what time and on what occasion my Lord of Strafford spake the words he was examined on before in the Parliament at Dublin He Answered A Petition was delivered to my Lord of Strafford and he spake to the House wherein he spake the words that he had formerly related That they must expect Laws as from a Conqueror and that the Instructions published for the setling of that Government were procured by a company of narrow hearted Commissioners That he did not then remember the certain time but he is sure it was in Parliament and so resented that almost all took notice of it when most part were English and British Extractions and very few Irish. The Lord Killmallock being demanded to the same purpose Answered That he conceived the occasion was a delivery of a Petition to his Lordship It is true it was not delivered in Parliament nor were the words spoken at the Council-Table where the Petition was delivered But he conceives it was on occasion of delivering that Petition that his Lordship speaks For after the Petition was delivered three or four days after his Lordship came to the Parliament House he called both Houses before him and there delivered these words That Ireland was a Conquered Nation and therefore must expect Laws as from a Conqueror Adding further That the Book of Instructions meaning the Book Printed in King Iames His Reign for the orderly Government of the Courts of Justice was contrived and procured by a company of narrow-hearted Commissioners who knew not what belonged to Government The words he said he remembers very perfectly as having great misery on his heart in the speaking And whereas it is said none did take notice of them They did but they durst not it wrought inwardly and had they spoken of it they expected no redress but a greater addition of calamity to them We shall now proceed and observe That this Article touching the Laws of Ireland gives the ground-work of what follows in the subsequent Articles concerning Ireland And first We desire Your Lordships to take into remembrance That though Ireland differ in some particular Statutes from England yet they enjoy the same Common Law without any difference That by the Statute 28 H. 6. in Ireland It is Enacted That every Cause shall be remitted to its proper Court It is true the King hath this Prerogative not to be tied to sue in the Kings-Bench but may sue in any Courts of Justice for matters Triable in the common-Common-Pleas or Chancery or Exchequer all Courts are open to him wherever he will have his Cause judged but with the Subject the proper Cause must go to the proper Court and according to this the exercise and use is continued in that Kingdom Some Incroachments being made King Iames of blessed memory took consideration of it he appointed Commissioners and Instructions were Printed in pursuance of this A Noble Earl now present Justice Iones Sergeant Crew and divers others were imployed in that Service These Instructions as they remit the Causes to the proper Courts so they declare that it had crept in at the Council-Table in latter times to take Oaths but direct that it shall be forborn for matters of Interest and Complaint between party and party and matters of Title And it stays not here but a Proclamation is issued to the same effect This Statute these Instructions and this Proclamation we desire may be read Accordingly the Statute was read whereby it was ordained to the Governour of the Land or other Officer for the time being He that accuses shall find sufficient sureties for the damage of him that is accused and if it shall be adjudged that the Suggestion or Accusation is not true c. And also that he that is Arrested may go by Surety or Bail till the matter be determined And if it be matter of Treason or Felony to be remitted to the Kings-Bench if Conscience to the Chancery if Franchise to the Seneschal of the Liberty if for Debt to the Common-Pleas c. saving the Kings Prerogative Then part of the Instructions were read published 1622. wherein it is Ordered That the Council-Table shall keep it self within its proper bounds Amongst which the Patents of Plantations and the Offices on which the Grants are founded are to be handled as matters of State and to be determined by the Lord Deputy and Council publickly but Titles between party and party are to be left to the ordinary course of Law and neither Lord-Deputy Governour nor Council-Table hereafter to intermeddle or trouble themselves with ordinary businesses within Cognizance of ordinary Courts nor meddle with possession of Land nor make or use private Orders Hearings or References concerning such matters nor grant Injunctions nor Orders for stay of Suits at Common Law Causes recommended from the Council of England and spiritual Causes concerning the Church excepted Then the Proclamation was read dated November 7. 1625. whereby it is commanded That the Deputy and Council-Chamber in Ireland then and from time to come shall not entertain or take consideration of any private Cause or Causes or Controversies between party and party concerning their private and particular Estates nor any Cause or Controversie of that Board which are not of that nature that do properly concern matter of State But that all Causes and Controversies of that nature moved or depending between party and party concerning private and particular Interests be proceeded in in the ordinary Courts of that Kingdom respectively to whom the Cognizance of these Causes and Controversies doth belong c. For that Objection from the Opinion of my Lord Cooke in Calvins Case if it were an Opinion to the contrary in an Argument it is no binding Authority But that Opinion is nothing at all against what hath been said for it is express That Ireland did retain the same Common Law with England It is true Ireland hath Statutes and Customs particularly retained and so there be divers particular Customs in England that differ from the Common Law yet are approved and allowed in it as in Wales and the Custom of Gavel-kind and the Common Law which is the general Government is the
at Board with him and required him to give his Testimony who had an Oath given him by the Lord Deputies command by the Clerk of the Council and referred himself to what he and Sir Robert Loftus had long before put under their hands Thereupon the Lord Deputy gave that Paper to the Clerk of the Council to read which was the Paper the Lord Deputy held in his hand and out of which he had read the Charge And that being shewed to my Lord Moore he said to his best remembrance those were the words spoken Sir Robert Loftus was also called in and he being required to give his Testimony referred himself to that which he and my Lord Moore had put under their hands and being shewed him with his hand to it he affirmed it Then my Lord Deputy asked me what I could now say since the words were proved to my face I humbly told his Lordship and made solemn protestation and offered to take my Oath That I did never speak the words as I was able to prove by several Witnesses and desired That the Lord Chancellor at whose Table they were spoken and Judge Martial of the Kingdom then in Town might be summoned to give his Testimony for truth and Sir Adam Loftus his Son and near twenty others and desired they might be examined in the Cause and that I was well able to prove that the words charged to be spoken by me were not spoken by me but by others as to that part that concerns the Affront but his Lordship refused me to have any examined Being asked whether all the Army was then on the march as my Lord of Strafford had said in his Answer He Answered There was at that time three or four or five Companies I am not able to say how many When my Witnesses were refused and I had made my protestation that I had not spoken them and was ready to prove it my Lord Deputy Answered That he knew my Oathes and Protestations well enough I took Exception to the Testimony of the Lord Moore and Sir Robert Loftus as I might in a Legal way But my Lord Deputy rebuked me and spoke in commendation of them and bid my Lord Moore sit down now and be one of my Judges And thereupon commanded me to withdraw which I did and went out into a Gallery by where I stayed about the space of half an hour I think not more I am sure not an hour and was then called in and at the beginning was required to Kneel as a Delinquent which I conceived I was not having endeavoured always to shew my self a faithful Officer Then my Lord Deputy commanded Sir Charles Coote to pronounce the Sentence as Provost Martial of Connaught which he did briefly in effect as in the Sentence And my Lord Deputy took occasion to make a Speech and told me invectively enough amongst other things there remained no more now if he pleased but to cause the Provost Martial to do Execution But withall added That for matter of Life he would supplicate His Majesty And I think he said he would rather lose his Hand than I should lose my Head which I took to be the highest scorn to compare his the Lord Deputies Hand with my Head I said I never did and hoped I never should endanger my Head by Offending His Majesties Laws I was hereupon commanded to be taken to Prison by the Constable of the Castle who took me thence away what past in the time of my absence I knew not but the Articles I was charged with breach of were not declared nor I urged to Answer if I had I could have Answered I knew of no such Articles nor ever saw them till Iune 1636. published by his own Authority and made in time of War And though made for regulating of the Army yet were never put in practice And on a Conference with some of the Council of War I was informed they differed in Opinion amongst themselves and some moved both the Articles might not be pressed And his Lordship Answered he would have both or none Being asked on my Lord of Straffords motion how long after the Sentence given he remained a Prisoner in the Castle I was Committed the 12th and remained until the 18th and was not released by any Favour of my Lord Deputy but on a Certificate of the Physitians and that not admitted but upon Oath That I was in peril of my Life and a Petition drawn by them that had more care of my Health than my self being so afflicted in body and mind with the high Injustice and Oppression I had that I was extreamly ill and was then remitted on Security given by the Chief Justice in 2000 l. Bond to be a Prisoner Being asked on the Committees behalf whether he was not taken to Prison again and how long he continued in Prison for this Cause I continued at my House and was very ill and after that several times was called to the Council-Table by my Lord Deputy and an Information exhibited in the Star-Chamber for pretended Crimes which I shall ever desire to Answer in any publick Legal Judicature rather than live And I was imprisoned again the 11th of April being sent for to my House and found with my Counsel about me preparing my Answer in the best manner I could and the Advice was I should demurr to that Information because I stood under the Sentence of death I was carried by the Constable to the Castle and brought before my Lord Deputy and the said 11th of April 1636. was committed close Prisoner and there continued till the second of May And I knew no other cause but that I had as he said neglected the Kings Grace and had sent my Wife into England and transgressed a Proclamation To which I answered I had not transgressed it that my Wife was full of Grief at my Calamities and I had sent her to save my Life Then my Lord Deputy told me that I had refused the Kings Grace offered me in not accepting his Pardon which I thought not Legal for me to take And thereupon Committed me Being asked on the Lord Lieutenants motion whether the Council were not present He Answered Some of the Council were present but my Lord Committed me the Council not speaking a word Being asked again about the time of his Commitment I was first Committed the 12th of December let go the 18th to my House Committed again the 11th of April put out the second of May I was then in great Extremity and admitted to my House again where I lay in a long continuing sickness and under the hands of Physitians And the 30th of Ianuary afterwards because I sued not out the Pardon was imprisoned again and there continued till March 1637. The Lord Dillom was called and after some exception taken by my Lord of Strafford to the examining of him because he might speak things that amount to an Accusation of himself the same was over-ruled
nor Horse to lye on Horseback or Foot to lye on the Kings people but on their own cost without consent And if any so do he shall be adjudged as a Traitor Mr. Palmer concluded that this hath been done and how their Lordships have heard that this hath been done by Soldiers that profess hostility brought from Garrisons the places of War in great numbers and indeed the number left indefinitely to the discretion of the Sergeant at Arms in Warlike furniture which is literally true in the case And so he concluded the Article expecting my Lord of Strafford's Defence My Lord of Strafford desired their Lordships would be pleased to give him liberty to look over his Notes and he doubted not but to give their Lordships a very clear satisfaction by the help of Almighty God After a little respite his Lordship began his Defence in substance as followeth And First He desired their Lordships would please to remember that if he proved not all things so clearly and fully the reason was obvious and plain the shortness of his time the Witnesses being to be fetched out of Ireland and he having none but such as come accidentally That the other day he read to their Lordships out of Sir Edward Cook 's Book that the Customs of Ireland are in many things different from the Customs of England That for the things done in Ireland he conceived he was to be judged by the Laws and Customs of Ireland and not by the Laws and Customs of this Kingdom and that his Commission was to execue the place of Deputy according to the Laws and Customs of that Kingdom That what hath been opened to their Lordships to be so extraordinary he must justifie as very ordinary frequent and usually exercised by the Customs of that Kingdom That in all times the Army of Ireland and the Officers and Soldiers of it have been the chief hands in executing all the Justice of the Kingdom and of bringing that due obedience to the Kings authority that 's necessary and fit and due That if they had not been so used he thinks those who know the State of Ireland will acknowledge the King's Writs had never run in Ireland they being all executed by their Power and Assistance First his Lordship undertook to make it appear that in case of bringing in Rebels and Offendors of that nature and forcing them to come in it had been the ordinary practice of the Deputy and Council before his time to Assess Soldiers not only on the party but the kindred of the partys till the party be brought in and yet it is no levying of War for all that And because his Lordship heard much speaking of Rebels and Traitors he desired to represent to their Lordships what they be viz. a company of petit loose fellows that would be here apprehended by a Constable Lord Robert Dillon was called for and my Lord of Strafford desired he might be asked whether it had not been the practice of the Deputy and Council to Assess Soldiers not only on the persons but the Septs and whole kindred of Rebels Here Mr. Palmer interposed that for saving of time if my Lord makes this the Case that Soldiers have been laid upon the Septs of Traitors or Rebels that lye out in Woods and esloigne themselves from the Kings protection whom they call Kernes Outlaws and Rebels they the Committee will admit the usage though it will not justifie the Case being expresly against Law for by a Stat. 22 Eliz. If any lye out as Traitors or Rebels five of the Sept that bears the Surname shall be Fined at the Council-Chamber but not have Soldiers laid on them and against a Statute there can be no Usuage To which my Lord of Strafford answered And these are but ordinary fellows And he desired their Lordships would clearly understand what is meant by Rebels for every petty fellow stealing Sheep and the like if the party be out in action they commonly term such Rebels Robert Lord Dillon being asked whether ordinary fellows in Ireland passed not under the name of Rebels His Lordship Answered That touching this point he hath observed that when a party hath committed some Felony or unjustifiable Act and withdraws himself into the Woods a Proclamation is made for his coming in by such a time to render himselfamenable to the Law and if he then comes not in but keeps out in commmon reputation he is accounted a Traitor or Rebel Sir Arthur Tyrringham being asked whether of his knowledge the Deputies and Council have not frequently Sessed Soldiers on Offenders and Rebels when they could not be brought forth to Justice and what is understood by a Rebel in Ireland He Answered That it hath been the ordinary practice ever since he knew that Kingdom since my Lord of Faulklands being Deputy there and hath been ever practised there both by him and the Justices that came after him That ordinary fellows be commonly reputed Rebels with this observation It is true That every man is not a Rebel at his first going out though he be called so but the course is first to proclaim them and if they be not ameneable to Law they be Rebels and so they may be for Felonies of a very small value To prove that most of the Kings Rents as well Exchequer Rents as Composition Rents have been levied by Soldiers in all the times of my Lord of Cork My Lord of Strafford desired Iohn Conley might be called for who being examined how long since he hath been in Ireland and whether in his time the Rents were not col lected by the Soldiers and Officers of the Army He Answered to the First 15 years To the Second That he remembers it very well that in my Lord Faulklands time it was an ordinary course where the Kings Rents were due to send some Horse and Horsemen and takeup these Rents and lye on them till they were collected and taken up So in my Lord Grandisons time and in all Chichesters time and this is all he cansay Henry Dillon was called And First my Lord of Strafford desired liberty to defend the credit of his Witness as to some exceptions taken to him the other day and offered the occasion of the Order of Council-Board made against him to be only this That he said he heard some such thing said and thereupon was commanded to make an acknowledgement and to this he was invited and perswaded by my Lord Dillon for quietness sake rather than he should be troubled about so small a matter and that being granted he supposed the Gentleman stood upright and was a competent Witness in this or any other cause To which some of the Committee for the Commons answered That they except not against the hearing of him but offer to their Lordships memory his acknowledgement that he spake falsly as a weakening of his memory And then Henry Dillon being asked Whether he knew
before his going into Ireland and as appears by their own shewing such a Proposition as was allowed and approved of by their Lordships at the Council-Board He desires that in this as in all things else he might not be taken in pieces but altogether for if they take part and leave what they please they may make a man speak strange things and therefore he desired their Lordships would hear the reasons inducing that Proposition as well as the Proposition it self being under the Clerk of the Councils hand and so attested by Mr. Ralton The Proposition and Reasons were accordingly read as followeth in substance Feb. 1631. A Proposition amongst divers others entred in the Register of the Acts of Council 22 Feb. 1631. follows in haec verba THat no particular complaint of Injustice or Oppression be admitted here against any unless it first appear he hath made his Address to the Deputy And indeed this is but justice to the Deputy who must needs in some measure be a Delinquent if the complaints be true as being in chief universally to take care that His Majesties Justice be throughly complyed with in that place and therefore good reason his Judgement should be informed and his Integrity first tryed before either be impeached Nay it is but justice to the Government it self which would be exceeding scandalous through the liberty of complaints and the Ministery therein extreamly discouraged upon every petit matter to be drawn to answer here when the thing it self is for the most part either injurious or for which the party might have received good satisfaction at his own door But where the complaint appears formally grounded and where due application hath been made to the Deputy without relief to the party let it be throughly examined and severely punished wheresoever the fault proves to be especially if it be corrupt or malicious for so he shall not only magnify his Justice but punish an unfaithful Minister or clamorous Complainant and his service shall thereby be bettered From whence my Lord of Strafford inferred That by this it might appear to their Lordships his intent was not to assume any greater Authority than became him to desire but meerly to prevent clamors and unjust complaints and that they might be redressed nearer home without Complaint and no way to hinder any mans just complaint And so it had no relation nor aspect to himself but meerly to the furthering of the Kings Justice And so that Proposition could not he conceived be turn'd upon him otherwise then as Just and Honourable For the Proclamation it self and the staying of men from coming without Licence the thing complained of he begged leave to acquaint their Lordships with some particulars He conceived by the Laws of Ireland no man that is a Subject and Liege-man there can come from thence without Licence from the Deputy but it is very penal and to that purpose he would mention two or three Statutes of that Kingdom One is the 26 H. 6. ca. 2. The Title whereof is An Act that the Kings Subjects or Officers in Ireland may be absent by the Commands of the King or Governor or Council without Censure of c. The words of the Statute in substance Also it is decreed and agreed that none of the Kings Liege men who comprehend all as he conceives or Officers of the Land go out of the Land but by Commission from the King or his Heirs Lieutenant-Iustices c. All the Rents Benefits Offices or other Possessions by their said Absence shall be seized into the Kings hands c. Whence my Lord of Strafford inferred That if they go without the Governors Licence there is a forfeiture of all these Another is 25 H. 6. Ca. 9. It is ordained c. That if any Liege-man be out of the Kingdom by the Commandement of the King or his Heirs or the Lieutenant there Deputy-Iustices or Council Their Rents c shall not be seized c. Whence his Lordship inferred That if they go without Licence they are punishable for it The next is a certain Article preferred by certain Irish Agents then in England in May 1628. or thereabouts long before he was thought on for a Deputy in Ireland either by himself or any body else and this is from their own desire and Petition Being attested by Mr. Ralton to be a true Copy one Article was read being in substance as followeth May 1628. TO the Kings most Excellent Majesty the humble Petition of Your Majesties faithful Subjects appointed Agents to prefer certain humble Requests c. to your Highness in behalfe of your Kingdom of Ireland After the Preamble amongst other things it contained That His Majesty would be pleased that in respect of the non-residence of many great men who spending their Estates abroad the Kingdom was impoverished and great sums of Money transported Order might be taken that both they and all Undertakers on whom Estates have been bestowed for the better supporting and improving of the Kingdom may make their personal Residence at least half the year and not to depart without Licence His Majesties Answer was given in these words ALL the Nobility Undertakers and others who hold Estates and Offices within that Kingdom are to make their personal Residence there and not to leave it without Licence such persons excepted only as are imployed in Our Service in England or attend here by Our special Command Next my Lord of Strafford desired he might read the Lord Faulklands Instructions which as he conceived were pursuing to this and they were as he takes it 24 May 1628. which being attested by Mr. Brooks to be examined by the Original was read C. R. Instructions to be observed by or c. Henry Viscount Faulkland or Council there c. ALL the Nobility Undertakers and others who hold Estates or Offices in that Kingdom are to make their personal Residence there and not to leave it without Licence such persons only excepted as are employed in Our Service in England or attend here by Our special Command Next His Lordship offered His Majesties Letter of 20 th of Ianuary 1634. Commanding the publishing of this Proclamation which Mr. Ralton affirming to be a true Copy was read C. R. To the Lord Deputy of Ireland WHEREAS amongst other things in the Graces vouchsafed to Our Subjects 1628. We signified Our Pleasure That the Nobility Undertakers and Others holding Estates in Ireland should be resident there and not to depart without Licence And being now given to understand That notwithstanding those Directions divers persons not of the meaner sort take liberty to pass into this Kingdom or foreign parts as if they understood not what they owed to Us in their Duty or themselves in their evil Carriage which presumption we may not long suffer c. We do therefore hereby Will and Require you by Act of State or Proclamation to make known Our Pleasure That all Nobility Undertakers and others that hold Estates and Offices such persons
only excepted as be imployed here c. do hereafter make their personal Residence and not depart for England or other place without privity of Our Deputy any former Letters to the contrary notwithstanding And because We resolve to have this course constantly observed if you shall have notice of any Contemner of this Command Our Will and Pleasure is That you proceed against them in an exemplary way to deterr others And for so doing this shall be your Warrant My Lord of Strafford observed That he might well have hoped that this being required by the Laws of the Land that no man should depart without Licence but it should be penal to him having their own Articles which desire the same thing That by this Proclamation the Power of my Lord of Faulkland was established upon him and the Kings Command for the issuing this Proclamation being justified by the Kings own Letter so that this should not have been laid to him for so great and high a crime as it hath been represented to your Lordships and he trusted that by that time their Lordships thought it not so great a crime as it might at first seem to be That he was not very hasty in issuing the Proclamation he having no interest in it nor nothing to drive him forwards for tho His Majesties Command was bearing date 20 Iune 1634. yet the Proclamation issued not till Sept. 17. 1635. And because all he had said had been turned on him as a crime his Lordship gave this further Answer That there could be no Proclamation made by the Deputy alone he being absolutely restrained by his Commission not to make a Proclamation without the Council therefore he could not be singular in the fault but had the consent of all the Kings Council and for instance in matter of Law the Chief Justices are sitting at the Board to whom all matters of Law are referred and they are answerable for it and are so learned that they could not do things so frequently without good authority and this he offered in excuse of this and all other Proclamations not doubting but it was according to the Laws and Customs of the Land And for further satisfaction that part of his Commission that concerned the Proclamation was read and in this particular he desired leave to offer something more with all Humility that tho none of these were for his justification yet for Reasons of State this Restraint was most necessary for whosoever goes over Deputy while these two great men to term them no worse O Neal and Tir-Connel have Regiments of the most antient Irish Septs serving the King of Spain under their Command it is necessary for him to have an eye upon them for if every one might withdraw himself at pleasure without giving an account it would open all the power and means that possibly can be to distemper that State and certainly if that liberty might be granted he feared it would produce sad events in that Kingdom Moreover if all the Primogeniture and Nobility of that Religion should be suffered to go over to Doway St. Omer and the Jesuites Colledges it was to be feared they should not be so well brought up for the service of the King and Common-wealth as may be desired and therefore it was necessary according to the constitutions of that Kingdom that they shall give an account to the Chief Governor And it was no other than what is practised here in England no man being at liberty to goe hence into France without Licence And certainly said he it is an Account we owe to the King and stands with the Law of nature Pater Familiae may take accompt of his own Houshold and the King being the great Father of the Common-wealth we owe this Accompt to him Therefore he conceived it can be no great offence in him to do this on these grounds and as he recommended the prosperity of that Kingdom and His Majesties affairs there and here to God by his Prayers and good desires so he wishes it might be taken into good consideration that this may be continued as a principal and necessary expedient to give His Majesty that account without which the Governor shall not be able to take just measures of things there His Lordship then observed that something had been observed that was no part of his Charge and therefore presumed their Lordships would not expect an answer to it or conclude him any way in their Judgement guilty of it since the means of giving that satisfaction which otherwise he should have done are now taken away But when they came to be complained of in their proper place he is ready to give such an account as becomes a Just and Innocent man But that which seems to be the foulest of them was that concerning my Lord of Esmond of which he remembred very little but something darkly and if it appeared not as he should say he was extreamly mistaken for what he did not know or remember he would not speak of it confidently and in short the point is this Two men swear that he the Lord of Strafford denied liberty to my Lord of Esmond to come for England Aug. 1638. and that he was kept in Ireland and could not have Licence to come away till April 1639. His Lordship confessed it to be very true and that he remembred my Lord of Esmond desiring to go over was stopped by him a while he being Sergeant Mayor-General of the Army the Army having occasion of motion and that he was sure it was much about the time if his Memory failed him not extreamly but when it came to this time and he had means to produce witnesses he hoped to make this appear besides he was mistaken if he did not very shortly after give him a Licence and that he found not occasion to make use of it and if that was was so all they said was taken away for he afterwards finding it to draw towards winter laid aside the Licence till the Spring at Spring he asked it and had it but in these things not judicially brought against him and to which he could not make certain Answers he hoped he might stand clear and unprejudiced till he may answer positively for himself and then as their Lordships should find him they might judge of him and he should ever most willingly submit to their Judgements and abide it whatever it was And whereas the Witnesse said my Lord of Esmond was hindred because he had no Commission to examine Witnesses my Lord of Strafford said he was able to prove that a Bond was granted him to examine Witnesses And the Witness being accidentally there his Lordship took notice of Gods providence from that and said God Almighty was willing to help and assist him wonderfully in his Trial and that his Goodness to him in this Cause had been a great deal more than he would trouble their Lordships withal at that time but he said he was confident God had
be heard to be a just and fair Decree I do not any way question that though I remember little of the business But at the worst this is but an over-exercising of a Jurisdiction and that it should be High-Treason in a Judge to exceed his Jurisdiction I must confess I never heard it I told your Lordships the other day Bono Iudici est Amplior Iurisdictio But that it should be High-Treason to enlarge Jurisdiction is a perilous Point and if it be so it befits your Lordships and all Judges to be well certained what you may do least by going too far you fall into great Inconveniences But my Lords I say under favour that all these if they had been done without any manner of Authority had not been a Subversion but rather a diversion of the Law it could not be properly said to be the subverting of the Fundamental Lawes though it might be a diverting and so long as I keep the Rule of the Law and do the same things that another man does in a more legal way I mean in a more warrantable place I say my doing of the same thing in an improper place is not a Subversion but a diversion of the Law If you will bring in the Thames about Lambeth to come in again below the Bridge the River is the same though the Course be diverted to another place So the Fundamental Law is the same though the Course be diverted to another place I say the Fundamental Law is the same onely it is carry'd in another Pipe And Shall this be said to be a Subverting Under favour as the River is the same so the Law is the same it is not a subversion but a diversion Nor doth it skill where Justice be done I mean so far as it concerns the Subjects Interest for so long as he hath Justice speedily and with least Charge his end is complyed with and it concernes not himself whether he hath it in the Kings Bench or common-Common-Pleas so he hath it speedily and with the least Charge And therefore as long as the Lawes are the same though Executed by several Persons and in several places I cannot conceive it to be a subversion And I shall humbly beseech your Lordships to take care that while these straynes are put upon me to make this Personal Charge against me ye do not through my Sides Wound the Crown of England by taking that Power from the Deputy which must of necessity be lodged in him if you will have that Kingdom depend upon the Crown of England which I hold in all Wisdom and Judgment ought to be cared for Therefore I beseech you prejudice not the Deputy to the Disabling him from serving the Crown hereafter by Beating down me who am this day to Answer before you For if you take away the Power of the Deputy you shall not have that Kingdom long depend upon this Crown for it rests under God and His Majesty and must principally rest upon the care of him that is intrusted with that Charge And therefore give me leave on the behalfe of the Crown of England to beseech you to be wary of lessening the Deputies Power too much for if you do I fear you will find it a great Disservice to the Crown My Lords the next thing I am Charged with is the 9th Article That is a Warrant of Assistance to the Bishop of Down and Connor and for that your Lordships see there was but one of them and have heard it proved that before my time such Warrants were frequent indeed no man was denyed them But my Lords it must likewise be remembred that of my own accord I did recall it before I was ever questioned for it and it is very hard if he that mends his Faults should be afterward punished for it for it is a Degree of Repentance and it is hard that a man should be finally Condemned after Repentance and therefore my Lords I trust seeing there was but one of them seeing I did my self recall it so willingly as soon as I found the Inconvenience I hope that will be easier remitted to me The next is the 10th Article that concernes the Customes and that is rather to be looked on as a Fraud then as a Treason as I conceive it there is no Treason in the business sure But I have proved the Bargain was honestly made That there was more offered for it by me then any other That I had it upon no other Termes then it was formerly let to others That I was constrain'd to it whether I would or no And then my Lords if the Bargain by the Increase of that Kingdom proove a good and profitable Bargain it is a very hard Case that if it be increased through the Kings Wisdom and Goodness and the Kingdoms Growth Trade and Traffick that this should be turned upon me as an Argument to make me Guilty of Treason I never found a good Bargain should be so charged so long as it was honest and fair But whereas they press That I have gained Three Hundred Thousand Pounds Estate by it it is a very strange mistake For the King has out of it His Rent of 15 or 16 Thousand Pounds a year and Five entire parts of Eight clear to Himself and therefore it was a strange Calculation and much mistaken by them that gave the Information of it to the Gentlemen For the Book of Rates it was none of mine but was agreed on before my time I had nothing to do with it and therefore have nothing to Answer for it And when it shall come to be proved it will appear that the Rates were set fairly and justly and equal betwixt King and People according to the Law whatsoever hath been said to the contrary The next is the 11th Article concerning Pipe-Staves and that is by them waved and well they may for the plain truth is if it had been proceeded in it would have appeared that there is come Fifteen hundred pounds gain to the King and Four hundred pounds loss to my self and preserving of Woods and that is all that would be made from that Article The next is the business of the Tobacco which is not applyable to Treason in any kind but because I would be clear in every Mans Judgment that hears me I beseech your Lordships to call to mind it was the Petition of the Commons-House of Ireland that the Grant of Impost on the Tobacco should be taken in and converted to the Kings use so that whatsoever was done was persuing their intention and desire That there was no way but this to make benefit and profit of it is most manifestly shewed that there was a Proclamation in England of the like nature and a Command of the King to proceed in it accordingly and an Act of Parliament Transmitted here for Passing it to the Crown according to the intention of the Commons-House and for the greatness of the Bargain no Proofe hath been offered to your Lordships
in the ordinary way of Judicature without Bill for so is the present question For the clearing of this I shall propound two things to your Lordships consideration Whether the Rule for expounding the Irish Statute and Customs be one and the same in England as in Ireland That being admitted whether the Parliament in England have cognizance or jurisdiction of things there done in respect of the place because the Kings Writ runs not there For the First in respect of the place the Parliament here hath cognizance there And Secondly If the Rules for expounding the Irish Statutes and Customs be the same here as there this exception as I humbly conceive must fall away In England there is the Common-Law the Statutes the Acts of Parliament and Customs peculiar to certain places differing from the Common-Law If any question arise concerning either a Custom or an Act of Parliament the Common-Law of England the First the Primitive and the General Law that 's the Rule and Expositor of them and of their several extents it is so here it is so in Ireland the Common-Law of England is the Common-Law of Ireland likewise the same here and there in all the parts of it It was introduced into Ireland by King Iohn and afterwards by King Henry 3. by Act of Parliament held in England as appears by the Patent-Rolls of the 30th year of King Henry 3. the first Membrana the words are Quia pro Communi Utilitate terrae Hiberniae unitate terrarum Regis Rex vult de Communi Concilio Regis Provisum est quod omnes Leges Consuetudines quae in Regno Angliae tenentur in Hibernia teneantur eadem terra eisdem legibus subjaceat per easdem Regatur sicut Dominus Iohannes Rex cum ultimò esset in Hibernia statuit fieri mandavit quia c. Rex vult quòd omnia brevia de Communi Iure quae currunt in Anglia similiter currant in Hibernia sub novo sigillo Regis mandatum est Archiepiscopis c. quod pro pace tranquilitate ejusdem terrae per easdem leges eos regi deduci permittant eas in omnibus sequantur in cujus c. Teste Rege apud Woodstock Decimo nono die Septembris Here is an union of both Kingdoms and that by Act of Parliament and the same Laws to be used here as there in omnibus My Lords That nothing might be left here for an exception that is That in Treasons Felonies and other capital offences concerning Life the Irish Laws are not the same as here therefore it is enacted by a Parliament held in England in the 14th year of Edw 2. it is not in print neither but in the Parliament Book that the Laws concerning Life and Member shall be the same in Ireland as in England And that no exception might yet remain in a Parliament held in England The 5th year of Edw. 3. it is Enacted Quod una eadem Lex fiat tam Hibernicis quam Anglicis This Act is enrolled in the Patent Rolls of the 5th year of Edw. 3. Parl. membr 25. The Irish therefore receiving their Laws from hence they send their Students at Law to the Inns of Court in England where they receive their Degree and of them and of the Common-Lawyers of this Kingdom are the Judges made The Petitions have been many from Ireland to send from hence some Judges more learned in the Laws than those they had there It hath been frequent in cases of difficulty there to send sometimes to the Parliament sometimes to the King by advice from the Judges here to send them resolutions of their doubts Amongst many I 'll cite your Lordships only one because it is in a case of Treason upon an Irish Statute and therefore full to this point By a Statute there made the fifth year of Edw. 4. there is a provision made for such as upon suggestions are committed to prison for Treason that the party committed if he can procure 24 Compurgators shall be bailed and let out of prison Two Citizens of Dublin were by a Grand Jury presented to have committed Treason they desired benefit of this Statute that they might be let out of prison upon tender of their Compurgators The words of the Statute of the 5th year of Edw. 4th in Ireland being obscure the Judges there being not satisfied what to do sent the case over to the Queen desired the opinion of the Judges here which was done accordingly The Judges here sent over their opinion which I have out of the Book of Justice Anderson one of the Judges consulted withal The Judges delivered their opinion upon an Irish Statute in case of Treason If it be objected That in this Case the Judges here did not judge upon the party their opinions were only ad informandam Conscientiam of the Judges in Ireland that the Judgement belonged to the Judges there My Lords with submission this and the other Authorities prove that for which they were cited that is that no absurdity no failure of Justice would ensue if this great Judicatory should judge of Treason so made by an Irish Statute The Common-Law rules of judging upon an Irish Statute the Pleas of the Crown for things of life and death are the same here and there this is all that yet hath been offered For the Second point That England hath no power of Judicature for things done in Ireland My Lords the constant practice of all ages proves the contrary Writs of Error in Pleas of the Crown as well as in Civil Causes have in all Kings Reigns been brought here even in the inferior Courts of Westminster-Hall upon Judgment given in the Courts of Ireland the practice is so frequent and so well known as that I shall cite none of them to your Lordships no president will I believe be produced to your Lordships that ever the Case was remanded back again into Ireland because the question arose upon an Irish Statute or Custom Object But it will be said that Writs of Error are only upon failure of justice in Ireland and that suits cannot originally be commenced here for things done in Ireland because the Kings Writ runs not in Ireland Answ. This might be a good Plea in the Kings-Bench and inferior Courts at Westminster-Hall the question is Whether it be so in Parliament The Kings Writ runs not within the County-Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the Five Ports neither did it in Wales before the Union of Henry the 8th's time after the Laws of England were brought into Wales in King Edw. the 1. time Suits were not originally commenced at Westminster-Hall for things done in them yet this never excluded the Parliament-suits for Life Lands and Goods within these jurisdictions are determinable in Parliament as well as in any other parts of the Realm Ireland as appears by the Statute of the Thirtieth year of Henry 3. before-mentioned is united to the Crown of England By
by Act of Parliament not only since the first of Hen. 4. which were many but all before 1 Hen. 4. even until the 25 E. 3. by express words 2. By express words it takes away all declared Treasons if any such had been in Parliament Those for the future are likewise taken away so that whereas it might have been doubted whether the Statute of the 1 H. 4. took away any Treasons but those of the 22 d and 23 d years of R. 2. This clears it both for Treasons made by Parliament or declared in Parliament even to the time of making the Statute This is of great use of great security to the Subject so that as to what shall be Treason and what not the Statute of 25 E. 3. remains entire and so by consequence the Treasons at the Common Law Only my Lords it may be doubted whether the manner of the Parliamentary proceedings be not altered by the Statute of 1 H. 4. Chap. 17. and more fully in the Parliament Roll Number 144 that is whether since that Statute the Parliamentary power of Declaration of Treasons whereby the inferiour Courts Receive Jurisdiction be not taken away and restrained only to Bill that so it might operate no further then to that particular contained in the Bill that so the Parliamentary Declarations for after-times should be kept within the Parliament it self and be extended no further Since 1 H. 4. we have not found any such Declarations made but all Attainders of Treason have been by Bill If this be so yet the Common-Law Treasons still remaining there is one and the same ground of reason and equity since the 1 H. 4. for passing a Bill of Treason as was before for declaring of it without Bill Herein the Legislative power is not used against my Lord of Strafford in the Bill it s only the jurisdiction of the Parliament But my Lords because that either through my mistaking of the true grounds and reasons of the Commons or my not pressing them with apt agreements and presidents of former times or that perchance your Lordships from some other Reasons and Authorities more swaying with your Lorpships Judgments then these from them may possibly be of a contrary or dubious opinion concerning these Treasons either upon the Statutes of 25 E. 3. 18 H. 6. or at the Common-Law My Lords If all these five should faile they have therefore given me further in Command to declare to your Lordships some of their Reasons why they conceive that in this case the meer Legislative Power may be exercised Their reasons are taken from these three grounds 1. From the nature and quality of the Offence 2. From the Frame and Constitution of the Parliament wherein this Law is made 3. From Practices and Usages of former times The horridness of the Offence in endeavouring the overthrowing the Lawes and present Government hath been fully opened to your Lordships heretofore The Parliament is the Representation of the whole Kingdom wherein the King as Head your Lordships as the most Noble and the Commons the other Members are knit together into one Body Politick This dissolves the Arteries and Ligaments that hold the Body together the Lawes He that takes away the Lawes takes not away the Allegiance of one Subject alone but of the whole Kingdom It was made Treason by the Statute of 13. Eliz. for Her time to affirm that the Lawes of the Realm do not bind the Descent of the Crown no Law no Descent at all No Lawes no Peerage no Rankes or Degrees of men the same Condition to all It 's Treason to kill a Judge upon the Bench this kills not Iudicem sed Iudicium He that borrowed Apelles and gave Bond to return again Apelles the Painter sent him home after he had cut off his Right Hand his Bond was broken Apelles was sent but not the Painter There are Twelve Men but no Law there 's never a Judge amongst them It 's Felony to Imbezle any one of the Judicial Records of the Kingdom this at once Sweeps them all away and from all It 's Treason to Counterfeit a Twenty shillings piece here 's a Counterfeiting of the Law we can call neither the Counterfeit nor True Coyn our own It 's Treason to Counterfeit the Great-Seal for an Acre of Land no property hereby is left to any Land at all nothing Treason now either against King or Kingdom no Law to punish it My Lords If the Question were Asked at Westminster-Hall Whether this were a Crime punishable in Star-Chamber or in the Kings-Bench by Fine or Imprisonment they would say it went higher If whether Felony they would say that 's for an Offence only against the Life or Goods of some one or few persons It would I believe be answered by the Judges as it was by the Chief Justice Thurning in 21 R. 2. that though he could not Judge the Case Treason there before him yet if he were a Peer in Parliament he would so Adjudge it My Lords if it be too big for those Courts we hope it 's in the right way here 2. The second Consideration is from the Frame and Constitution of the Parliament the Parliament is the great Body Politick it comprehends all from the King to the Beggar if so My Lords as the Natural so this Body it hath power over it self and every one of the Members for the preservation of the whole It 's both the Physitian and the Patient If the Body be distempered it hath power to open a Vein to let out the corrupt blood for curing it self if one Member be Poysoned or Gangred it hath power to cut it off for the preservation of the rest But my Lords it hath often been inculcated that Law-makers should imitate the Supreme Law-giver who commonly warnes before he strikes The Law was promulged before the Judgment of death for gathering the Sticks No Law no Transgression My Lords To this rule of Law is Frustra legis auxilium invocat qui in legem committit from the Lex talionis he that would not have had others to have a Law Why should he have any himself Why should not that be done to him that himself would have done to others It 's true we give Law to Hares and Deers because they be Beasts of Chase It was never accounted either cruelty or foul play to knock Foxes and Wolves on the head as they can be found because these be Beasts of Prey The Warrener sets Traps for Polcats and other Vermine for preservation of the Warren Further my Lords most dangerous Diseases if not taken in time they kill Errors in great things as War and Marriage they allow no time for repentance it would have been too late to make a Law when there had been no Law My Lords for further Answer to this Objection he hath offended against a Law a Law within the endeavouring to subvert the Lawes and Polity of the State wherein he lived which had so long and with such