scriptures and all the ancient creedes grounded vpon the same togither with the very forme of our baptisme allowe vs onely to beleeue in God the father God the sonne and God the holy ghost vnanswerably thereupon it must needes followe that it is grosse idolatrie to pray vnto any other And so much in plaine tearmes hath Sedulius aboue one thousand yeares ago most flatly set downe vpon the first of the Romans saying Adorare alium praeter patrem filium spiritum sanctum impietatis crimen est that is to adore any beside the father the sonne the holy ghost is an vngodly wickednes Cyril also ad reginas de rectâ fide c. sendeth them that would obtaine their prayers to God the father in the name onely of Iesus Christ because solus naturâ verè est Deus he onely is by nature and in trueth God contra Iulianum lib. 6. he flatly saieth the holy martyrs neither doe we say to be Gods neue adorare consueuimus neither doe we vse to worship thē Yea Remigius who liued well nigh 900. yeares after Christ sheweth vpon the 96. Psalme that not onely images are not to be adored but he saieth plainely no nor an Angell is to be adored because of that warning of the Angell to the contrary in the Apocalips To conclude euen Hierom himselfe your owne fourth and last man whom I haue therefore kept to the last because many of you thinke that hee is much of your side against Vigilantius writing against the saied Vigilantius to one Ripacius cleareth himselfe to be farre frō this folly and blasphemy that you would make him an earnest procter for For there hee hath to shew his iudgement in this case writen thus non colimus adoramus we worshippe not and adore I say not the reliques of martyrs but neither sun moone Angels Archangels Cherubin Seraphin nor any name that is named either in this world or that which is to come beside the trinity for so he must be vnderstoode For immediately he addeth this reason least wee should serue the creature aboue the creatour who is blessed for euer We honour saieth he the relicks of the saints that we may adore him whose martyrs they be And good reason had all these fathers thus flatly to set downe their mindes against you For you know it is writen Dominum Deum tuum adorabis illi soli seruies that is thou shalt adore the Lorde thy God and him onely shalt thou serue Deut. 6. Matth. 4. and with this text Christ put the Deuill to silence when he would haue perswaded him to fall downe and worshippe him hee had nothing to replie against it I praie GOD you bee not growen in this point more obstinate and peeuish to withstand the doctrine of this text and more cunning and subtle to cauill against it for your owne defence then hee was I know some of you finding the Scriptures and fathers thus directlie to condemne adoration of the Saints though they maintaine still all your practise of praying vnto them yet haue not beene ashamed to write as it appeares in the censure of Colen printed there one thousand fiue hundreth sixty that amongst you it was neuer so much as heard that the Saints are to be adored for adoration is due onely to God Whereas they could not bee ignorant that their legends rosaries and other their bookes of deuotion publique and priuate are full both of the name and thing did they not knowe that the whole psalter is turned to the Virgin Mary and that therein it is writen venite adoremus eam come let vs adore her Howsoeuer they knew this or no they could not forget their olde saying of the Crosse beholde the woode of the Crosse whereon the saluation of the world hanged venite adoremus come let vs adore it If these will not serue to make them better to remember them selues let them reade their owne Antonin part 3. Tit. 12. cap. 8. and they shall finde him in plaine wordes to tell them that the Saints by the Pope by his canonizing of them are set forth vnto men not onely as an example of faith and holy life but also abomnibus adorandi in necessitatibus inuocandi that is of all to be adored and in necessities to be prayed vnto Wherein to say saieth he that the Pope erred were hereticall But this is like your other common shifts when you say you vse the Saints but as Mediatours of intercession and not of saluation which onely belongs to Christ and that you doe not giue them Latreian but Douleian that is as you expound the words not diuine honour but an inferiour honour not asking at their hāds that they should either giue you the good things you would haue or keepe frō you the euil that you would not haue the falshood and vanity whereof I haue both in my answere to the preface of your booke and also somewhat in this Chapter already bewrayed For let any man read ouer consider your praiers and practise and he shall finde that you make them mediatours of saluation and not onely of intercession though that onely if you did it being as it is a special part of the office of Christs mediatorship to be the very altar whereupon and whereby we must acceptably present these our spirituall sacrifices vnto his heauenly father hee being as he is of himselfe alone thorowly both able willing fully to execute his owne office you could not excuse cleare your selues of being guilty of high treason against Christ And he should further finde that you giue the diuinest honour that may bee that you doe directly beg all things euen at their hands that you can beg at Gods For it is vsual with you to sing to Mary salua eos quite glorificāt saue thē that glorify thee that succour the miserable help the weake refresh them that mourne you say to her Mary mother of grace mother of mercy protect vs frō the enemy receiue vs at the hour of death in the psalter now turned put forth by the deuout seruant of hers Bonauenture as some thinke you sticke not to vse all those speeches to her that in the psalmes are vsed to God himselfe and therefore you blush not to say vnto her Haue mercie vpon me O Lady according to thy great mercy according to the multitude of thy mercies blot out my iniquities But not onely thus haue you doubted about Mary but quite contrarie to your owne wordes when you would vse these shifts you deale with other Saints For you praie to Basil that he would looke downe vpon you from aboue change your whole life and you praie Athanasius to direct the holy people S. Cyprian to direct both your speech and life and who so readeth your speculum exemplonim your glasse of examples he shall finde there and in such other bookes of yours such stories tolde of things done by this Saint and that
to John de Albines booke is extant vnder the tytle of a deliberate aunswere to a rash offer c. and it vvas printed by Iohn Charlewoode in London 1588. They both haue vvith their aunswere set downe the words of the offerer The trauels of these two men haue eased both me this booke of mine of medling any further then I haue sayed with that Chalenger and the rather because since hee had his first aunswere we neuer yet heard that hee had either skill or will to replie I might well ynough considering the largenesse and sufficiency of Master Crowleys answere thereunto haue omitted that vvhich I further haue sayed to aunswere his six signes not touched by Doctor Fulke but that vvhat I haue vvritten thereabout vvas written before I sawe Master Crowleys answere and that I thought it not amisse to let it stande that so betvvixt vs three the vvhole thus might bee tvvyse aunswered Though it were Master Crowley vvho as I noted before in the first leafe of his booke making aunswere to this offer that gaue that iudgement that Iohn de Albines booke had beene the cause of so much apostasy of late here amongst vs yet he as he there shows would not bestowe tyme in aunswering of it because supposing by the title it was written by a Frenchman therefore either in french or latine he thought that either Beza or some other french protestant had done it already sufficiently This when I redde first it caused me to be the slacker both in finishing and publishing this answere of mine Yet in the ende forasmuch as this was now amongst vs in English and therefore in his opinion had hurt so much and so many English persons and I could neuer learne of any certainty that in any other language it had beene directly answered by any I thought it needefull and the best way whether any such answere in any other tongue had beene made vnto it elsewhere or not to preuent as much as maie bee anie further such danger amongst vs by it to accompany such poyson with his fit counterpoyson that is such an English popish discourse with an English christian answere And the rather because howsoeuer by the title there is shew that the author was a Frenchman yet indeede I can hardly be perswaded that he was so For his publisher in English taking leasure as he hath to trouble his reader with a long tedious and friuolous preface hath not therein so much as secretly once insinuated vnto vs in what language the author wrote it yea he hath not once meÌ„tioned any traÌ„slation of it either by himselfe or any other the consideration whereof together with sundry phrases and matters conteined in the booke makes me rather thinke that some of our owne fugitiues English Iesuits or seminary priests indeede haue made it then any such Archdeacon of Tolosa in France as is pretended But howsoeuer it be in this respect it is not much materiall and therefore I haue not beene herein curious for these my reasons notwithstanding in all this my answere vnto him I frame my speech as to the author whose name it beares And howsoeuer I may doubt of his person and cuntrey of this I am certaine whosoeuer he were French or English the sonne of that bondwoman Ismael was neuer cunninger in persecuting the son of the freewoman Isaac with scoffes mocks then the author thereof was by the same meanes to doe what might be done to vex and grieue vs. Whosoeuer he was the right popish vaine spirit of writing he had For in so short a peece of worke I am perswaded by that you haue viewed him ouer together with this answer of mine your Lordship will be of opinioÌ„ that neuer any of that factioÌ„ weÌ„t beyond him in shameful begging alwaies the things most in questioÌ„ in subtle slipping froÌ„ the matters vndertakeÌ„ to proue into other more easy for him not in question in false quoting abusing the testimonies which he alleadges or in barrennes of matter or methode in such copy of swelling bragging and triumphing words Sure I am for my owne part though I know these be the common ornaments of popish writers that I neuer redde any whose book coÌ„sisted so wholy of these as this of his But to leaue him as hee is whosoeuer he was and to returne vnto your Lordship once againe I dedicate and offer this my poore labour vnto your honourable view protection which I doe not because the truth of god which I haue therein taught and defended standeth neede of the patronage of man For god the author thereof can and will defende and protect that though al the great meÌ„ in the world should band themselues against it but for diuers and sundry other reasons iustly me mouing thereunto One is which I haue touched already that of right the dedication hereof appertayneth to you because I had neuer taken it in hand but by your Lordships motion perswasion An other is that you since my comming to the place where I am for these eleuen years last past haue alwaies been yet are a most louing fatherly patrone to my ministry mee and mine by which right though that former reason had not beene your honour may worthily chalenge not onely in this but also in all other such poore fruites of mine growing from me thus nourished and cherished vnder your Lordshippes patronage greater interest then this which I offer you nowe herein But if neither of these two reasons had been yet you being the man you are that is by the grace goodnesse of God as far as you are knowen which is very farre amongst the godly and truly religious a man by birth honourable for martiall prowesse more and for giftes of sounde learning religion and vertue most of of all to be honoured and esteemed euen that would haue drawen me though otherwise I had been a meare stranger vnto you by this means to haue sought to haue testified my duetifull and hartie good affection towardes you For pietie ioyned with Christian nobilitie hath been the auncieÌ„t cause why the godly learned in auncient times haue dedicated their works to such as they haue iudged truly qualified therewith doubtlesse therby both the better to encourage them to whom they dedicated their labours to proceede and goe on in the good course they had begun and thereby to prouoke others to imiâ—ate their good exaÌ„ple that the like honourable opinion may by such also bee conceaued of them likewise when occasion should serue to their comfort testified publickely of them in the church of God What else mooued Ambrose to dedicate his bookes of fayth and the spirite to Gratian the Emperour What else caused Lactantius to dedicate his diuine instituâ—â—ons to Constantine or what else enduced the holy â—uangelist S. Luke to dedicate his historie of the â—ctes of the Apostles to noble Theophilus It was â—oubtlesse great honour vnto these men in their â—imes in the churches of Christ
is none so simple but he may easily see that there is no necessary coherence betwixt this antecedent and consequent For Christ might haue and indeede hath had as I shew after in my fourth chapter by whō effectually from time to time he hath both continued his Church and his trueth therein though your Bishops Priests haue a long time shewed thēselues his most deadly Antichristiā enemies in opposing thēselues with main might against both his Church truth The matter you haue vndertaken to shew vs is by what right you exercise your ministery or how you were called to that estate for that as a thing more easy you rather haue chosen to doe then to proue your office of Priesthood it selfe to be of God though indeede this be the more material point which you should rather haue taken vpon you to proue but that it seemeth like a prudent man you tendered more your owne credit which you foresaw was like to take a foile if you should haue attempted to doe this which by no colour or shew of sound reason you could then the credit of your cause which you could not but foresee must needs lye in the dust this being left vnproued whatsoeuer you should say cōcerning the other But seeing whatsoeuer become of your cause it hath pleased you like a wise mā to slip frō vnder this burdē which was to heauy for you now that only thing that we must expect at your hāds at this time is to shew that your maner of cōming vnto them yet is honest good and lawful I pray you in good earnest consider and weigh with mee a little what you haue saied to proue this Al you say is as I noted before that you are called by the ordinary way thereūto that is as you expoūd your selfe by the right successiō of Bishops pastors by the continuāce of one Catholick faith deriued frō the Apostles to our daies wtout interruptiō of it vniuersally nothing at al you haue added that so much as sauoreth of any proofe of any one point of this your assertiō therfore seing your word is nor ought to be of more credit with vs then the bare partial word of an aduersary in his own case your frēds might haue thought themselues euen asmuch beholden to you if you had as wel giuen ouer the taking in hand to proue their maner of comming to their offices to be of God as you haue to proue the offices thēselues to be of his ordināce If you had mēt or at least could in earnest haue proued the thing you vndertooke you should haue first made it appeare what is requisite by Gods ordināce in the lawfull outward calling of the ministers of his Church then haue shewed vs that your Popes Cardinals Bishops priests haue alwaies doe stil so cōe by their offices but this was to haue dealt too plainely and in following of this course you knew wel enough you should be enforced too too openly to betray the badnes of your cause For who is there of any learning and reading but he knoweth that the ordinary way whereby these your officers haue come now these many 100 yeares to their roomes is as farre differing from the ordinary waie appointed by Christ for his ministers to come to their places by as the east is from the west You therefore like a wilie and subtle fox thought it no good pollicie this way to seeke to iustifie your calling or maner of cōming to your prelacies yet rather then you would seeme to be able to say no more for your maner of comming thereunto then for the offices themselues you were disposed you thought it good thus brauely and braggingly to set a face vpon it in these words as though you could saie enough and that makes your fault the greater You haue no sooner vttered this your bare and bold assertion which were somewhat if you could throughlie proue it but you are quite slipt gone into the proofe of another matter which though you proue yet your assertion is neuer the more thereby strengthened and confirmed For though we graunt you which alwaies we do most willingly that the Church of Christ hath alwaies had in her from her first natiuitie and shall haue vnto the ende successiuely in all ages in one place or other such as haue shewed the trueth faithfully vnto others as haue shined as lights in their daies set vpon a candlesticke and as haue painefully laboured and shall still to gather together the Saints to bring them to vnity and perfection in Christ yet neither doeth it follow that these haue bene so visible apparent glorious in the eies of al men that they haue so orderly succeeded one another and had their ordination one of another in one and selfesame place and after one and selfesame maner nor that hereupon it should follow that this hauing bene in any sort that then by and by it must be granted that yours haue entred the ordinarie way that they are right Bishops and Pastors haue had right succession alwaies one to an other and haue also which is the greatest thing of al had wtout interruption alwaies the sound catholicke faith continued amongst them For in some sort these might be in al ages and times that effectuallie to serue to these ends so far forth as stoode with Gods prouidence was according to the variable disposition therof sufficiēt to cōtinue his holy catholick Church according to his good pleasure yet not in that visible apparēt glorious maner that you pretēd some he might haue to enter into their callings to doe this the ordinary way though your Bishops Priestes haue not so entred be not right Bishops and Priests and be such as are destitute of al right ecclesiastical successiō both in respect of persons places times trueth And yet most euident it is to euery reader of anie iudgement that al your proofes in this Chapter in the rest that follow proue onely that God alwaies hath had hath will haue a Church and therin alwaies some teachers of the trueth and some learners and embraces of it And this the Lord hath had hath and euer wil haue though your ordinary waie of comming to your places though your Bishops and Pastors your personal and locall visible and glorious succession and your supposed Catholicke truth had neuer beene seene or heard of in the world Yea far more apparently and gloriouslie should we haue seene the trueth hereof if this ordinary waie of yours these Bishops and Priestes of yours this succession and counterfeyght trueth of yours had not in the iust iudgement of God for the sinnes of the world beene the stop let thereof And yet you either were so simple your selfe or else you thought you should onely meete with so simple a Reader as would account the prouing of one of these thus seuered and disioyned the one from the other the iust
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
with great approbation by men of your side to bring the poore Indians by force in subiection vnto you And what extreame force and crueltie hath beene vsed of late yeares to subdue the poore Christians of Cabriers Merindoll and other places thereabout and to roote out the professours of the Gospell and their fauourers in France I am perswaded that the Turks neuer vsed more faithles tyrannical and monstrous dealings then the stories and the euidence of the thing declares you haue vsed against these And therefore it being so vsuall a thing with you as it is to promote your Religion by force of all men you are the vnfittest to charge others with that as with a fault which you account so laudable in your selues And yet as though you had saied so much against vs for this as that thereupon it must needs appeare to euery man that we haue neither reason of our saying or doing you further charge vs that herein in seeking namely the reformation of your Church we haue taken vpon vs cōtrary to all laws both diuine and humane being also a party to be our owne iudge wherein you say vntruely of vs for we alwaies haue beene contented to submit both our sayings and doings to the iudgement of the Lord himselfe speaking vnto vs in the writen word and by the same we haue had our sayings and doings often examined and tried to be sound and lawfull in nationall and prouinciall Synodes before we haue attempted the reformation you speake of And secondly herein you charge vs as you did before with that which you your selues are openly guilty of For though your Pope be the speciall party accused by vs yet in all matters in question betwixt you and vs you wil haue him to be the supreme iudge and so the questiō being betwixt you vs whither you be the church or we and whither you hold the trueth or we no other triall will you admit but that we must be iudged by him whither it be so or no. Wherein you deale as if the felon at the bar should refuse all other triall but to be tried by the principall in that felony whither he be guilty or no. Now wheras yet in this our dealing you would resemble vs to him that gaue Christ a blow c. Your errour is manifold therein it seemeth either your negligence was much or that your wits were benūmed For where the story you allude vnto is Ioh. 18. it is quoted in your booke Iohn 15. neither doe you hit of Christs words in rehearsing the answere to him that smote him nor yet is there any reason or similitude made to appeare betwixt our dealing in seeking to reform your Church that fellow Christs answer was this if I haue euill spoken beare witnesse if the euill but if I haue well spoken why smitest thou me And you set downe his answere thus if we haue done il proue it before the iudge seeing that you are our accusers as for the resemblance betwixt him that smote Christ and vs you shew not wherein it is neither can I gesse wherein you ment it But indeed your dealing with vs considered he carieth a liuely resemblance of a number of you whose property it is to bring vs for our holy profession before your high priest and his chaplaines and then if we chance to answere boldly for our own defence as Christ did though neuer so directly to the purpose to checke vs and strike vs as he did our sauiour for your great prelates may not so be answered But perhaps you wil say that the words that you set downe containe your answere to vs when we checke you for your doings why then set you them downe as the answere made by Christ to him that smote him And if the words be taken as your answere to vs meaning therein such a iudge as either the Pope or one of his sworne men that we should be drawen before such iudges by your owne law here alleaged is against reason for they can be no competent iudges because they themselues are principall parties Our accusation of you we are alwaies ready to proue before the Lord of heauen and earth and before any other indifferent iudges by such deponents and witnesses as will not bee corrupted either by you or vs namely by the prophets and Apostles speaking without all partiality in the Canonical scriptures Exemption from this iudgement we neuer sought nor will and if your religion flye this kinde of triall and iudgement God hath giuen vs power euen thereby to iudge that you are such as ought to be driuen from possession of such a corrupt religion that dare not shew the face in this court of iudgment because then it knoweth it should bee foyled But yet to holde your Clyents in some lyking of your religion you once againe confidently bragge that it is of one thousand fiue hundred yeares continuance and vpwards and therefore you require vs that would disswade you therefrom to shew our commission sealed and confirmed as so great a matter doeth require and as Moses his was by miracles which in this case to be as necessary for vs as it was for him you striue to proue in the rest of this Chapter and that otherwise you are not to beleeue vs. Wherefore because all this you require at our handes and thinke you may doe it stil only vpon this supposition that your religion is thus ancient as you bragge First let vs consider of that point and then proceede to the rest which you infer thereupon Herein that which I haue writen already both in the later ende of the preface and in my answere to your 4 Chapter doeth sufficiētly discouer the shameles follie and vanity of this your brag howbeit because I perceiue what you lacke in trueth in this matter your purpose is to make vp with the setting a stout countenance vpon it once againe I will take the paines to strip your Church and religiō of this visard of antiquity which done for al your lewd brags I doubt not but that both the one and the other shal be found a yoūgling a new vpstart in comparison of that which you pretend First therfore to begin withal in that the greeke Churches which quite brake of communion with you in the time of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 which is now not aboue 360. yeares ago haue not yet allowed the masse to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and dead do minister no priuate masses either in the Church or else where reserue not after the ministration of this sacrament any part thereof nor deny the ministring thereof vnder both kindes to any communicant in that also they neuer yet coulde be brought to allow of the supremacy of your Pope nor of your doctrines of transubstantiation extreame vnction purgatory of forbidding their ministers the vse of lawful mariage in which points now a great part of your religion consists euen thereby it may
shew your selfe to bee not onely one that dare write any thing how grosse a lie soeuer it be but as malitious in your iudgement as euer was any First you set downe not onely that the Anabaptists condemne thē that die in Luther Caluins religion to hell which is likely inough because they were franticke heretiques haue denied the foundation but also the Lutherans and Caluinists will doe giue that iudgement one of another and yet I am sure you are not able truely to say that euer any of Caluins iudgement saied or wrote so Secondly though your owne iudgement be short yet so it is set downe that you shew that you beleeue that all the three sorts go thither And such care compassion your catholique heart had of it whē you had done that you iest at it accounting your selues fooles if you should stay their passage thither For if we were al gone for company you thinke you should be at quiet you say hel would be so full that the deuil would long for no more companie Is this your popish diuinity to make sport at the damnation of men And hold you this for a principle that it is folly to stay men from running togither to hel Indeed it may be For I haue read that it is a rule amongst you that if your Pope lead headlong with him multitudes by heapes to hell yet no man may be so hardie as to say vnto him why doest thou so Distinct 40. Cap. Si Papa But howsoeuer you account this diuinity certaine I am you wil finde it that in no two things more the deuils shew themselues deuils then in these In laughing and reioicing in the damnation of the soules of men and in letting them go freely for company to hell without stoppage as many as will Truely truely God must take from you this profane and deuilish spirit of yours and giue you grace to repent of it or els you may be sure how many soeuer die and go to hel before you hell wil long for you and you shal finde place and roome inough there I warrant you The XXXII Chapter THere is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called a What will not a passionate aduersary say to disgrace them that he writes against If like testimonies of men of your Religion writing yet in some points one against another wil be admitted it is an easy matter thus to discredit your whole faction Heshusius the which within these three yeares hath made a booke against Caluin Peter Boquin Theodore de Beza Gulielmus Elcimalcius he saieth amongst other things that Carolstadius Zuenfeldius Caluin Beza doe shew well the vncertainty of their faith by the diuersities of opinions that there is amongst thē the which fault saieth he doeth proceede of this that they haue forsaken the true sence of the scripture to follow the opinions of their owne heades b And yet in truth lyeth therein himselfe And in that very booke the saied authour doeth giue the lie to Caluin because that in that hee wrote against the aboue named Westphal hee saieth that Martin Luther and his adherents did acknowledge him as their brother the which thing he maintaines to be false c Greater more disagreement◠there are amōgst you papists and therefore these conclusions presse you rather then vs. Thus seeing yee agree togither like dogs and cattes that all these sects haue confirmed their false doctrine with the shedding of their owne bloud it is best to conclude as we haue saied before that it is not the paine nor the tormēt that doeth make the righteous martyr except we should saie that diuerse contrary messengers are sent from one master the which is notoriously false for that good king frō whom the trueth doeth come indeede hath so good a memory that he doeth neuer send contrary messengers but rather his faithfull seruāts doe all with one voice and one accord honour him as the father of our sauiour Iesus Christ The XXXII Chapter HEre againe as in the former Chapter you labour to discredit Caluin Beza and others onely with the testimony of Heshusius an vtter enemy of theirs about the quarrel of the cōtrouersie of the Sacrament whom heat of contention and a desire therefore to disgrace his aduersaries rather then iust cause led thus to write For what reason had he there to ioyne Zuenfeldius with Caluin and Beza with whom they helde no more communion and fellowshippe then hee himselfe and Corolstadius who was a doctour in Wittenberge in Luthers time and an associate to him in disputatiō against Ecchius he might with more reason haue ioyned with Luther himselfe and his partners then with these And howsoeuer the intemperate heate of contention emboldened Heshusius to giue Caluin the lie most certaine yet it is that Melancthon a great frende of Luthers whom Heshusius cannot deny was an adherent of Luther accounted of Caluin as of a good brother For in an Epistle which he wrote to him he calleth him Charissim◠fratrem most deare brother it is the 187. Epistle in the booke of Caluins Epistles And I am perswaded that what Caluin wrote he was able to iustify in this behalfe how rudely soeuer angry Heshusius gaue him the lie This obiection of our disagreement hath beene oft enough vrged and answered alreadie It seemeth that you haue great penurie of arguments against vs when this must come in thus often especially seeing as I haue shewed greater contentions haue beene amongst your selues In which cases would you haue thought a mā should haue dealt wel with you if the bitter speeches of the one side had alwaies beene taken as sufficient argumentes to disgrace the other Or would you haue liked that thereupon a man should inferre as you doe that you agreed no better then dogges and cattes and that therefore you so differing amongst your selues came not both from one master God who vseth not to sende contrary messengers this had beene an harde conclusion against a number of you in the time of your schismes betwixt your Popes and Antipopes and in the times of the contentiōs of your Friers with your other Prelates and also amongst themselues whereof I haue put you in remembrance before Chapter twenty eight And yet if you will needes meate this measure vnto vs vpon occasion of this one controuersie about the maner of Christs reall presence you must bee contented that vpon moe and greater contentions amongst you wee sende you home as good measure againe As for your conclusion that it is not the paine but the cause that maketh a true martyr wee graunted it you at the first but where to make way to bring it in here againe you insinuate not onely that the Donatists Adamites Seruetus and the Anabaptistes of whom you haue spoken in your former Chapter haue died to confirme their false Religion which we graunt you but that these also that you spake of last Lutherans and Zuenfeldians haue
and would haue quoted these not in his name but in Ambroses But yet then you took your mark amisse also For he hath no bookes neither that simply cary these titles Indeed he hath writen fiue de fide ad Gratianum and one de fide orthodoxâ contra Arrianos and a booke he hath writen de his qui initiantur mysteriis and fiue de sacramentis but in no seuenth nor eleuenth Chapters of any of his bookes de fide or symbolo hath he any thing to serue your turne Neuer man therefore was so abused as you Master Albine were I thinke in taking so few quotations of credit I would therefore henceforth aduise you vnlesse you be euen resolued vtterly to leese your credit trust no more thus either other mens eies or fingers Well Basil and Arnobius are yet behinde let vs see if you hit any rightlier of your places out of them you cite Basils 15 and 75 Chapters de Spiritu Sancto and Arnobius vpon the 27 Psalme Neither of which you haue rightly quoted For there are but 30 Chapters in al Basils booke de Spiritu Sancto as Erasmus hath translated him caused him to bee published and Arnobius vpon the twenty seuen Psalme hath not at all mentioned any ceremony about baptisme Basil in his fifteene and twenty seuen Chapters of that booke and Arnobius vpon the seuenty fiue Psalme make mention of abrenuntiation of some other ceremonies before mentioned by the other fathers but yet neither these nor all the other laied togither that you haue named either in the places mentioned by you nor any where else mention al the ceremonies which you vse by far though you would by your lowd bragging make your reader beleeue they doe Thus you see vnlesse you had beene disposed vtterly for euer to shame your selfe you could not in so few quotations especially not set on your margent but in your lines as they are the better to preuent wrong applying of them haue beene taken with thus many grosse ouersightes May not any man worthilie thinke you hereby iudge that howsoeuer the names of the fathers are familiar with you that yet you are a verie stranger in their workes indeed Of twenty places you haue alleadged aright and to the purpose scarse fiue and of seuen fathers belike because you would not deale partiallie with them your happe hath beene one waie or other to erre in quoting of euerie one of them Surelie you are worthie to bee trusted vpon your bare word without any further examination of your quotations an other time you haue dealt so faythfully and vprightlie in these And to conclude this point withall as though you had most rightly quoted and that they most pregnantlie had iustified all your Ceremonies as you vse them you confidently tell your reader that if hee will reade these places hee shall finde that they did vse the verie Ceremonies that you doe vse and wee so much myslike Thus yet you coulde set a good face on the matter though you could doe little else But in good earnest is it your meaning by these places to make mē before that none are to be accoūted rightly baptised vnles vnto him all these your ceremonies which you talke of be vsed What say you then to Christs baptisme and the multitudes baptised by Iohn in Iorden and after by the Apostles sometimes in one day in water that was next to hād Sure I am that none of your ceremonies that you striue for here so much which we mislike was vsed then to anie of them and yet I am sure neuer were any with these ceremonies of yours better baptized then these were Nay to presse you a litle further if these ceremonies were so necessarie as you pretend how chāceth it that aboue 600. yeares after Christ that is long after any of the fathers you haue named to countenance them withal we read in Bedaes story so often mētion as we do of so great multitudes here in England by famous Bishops baptised in one daie in common riuers It is vnpossible that they should baptise so many in so short time as that story shewes they did and yet vse to euery one all the solemnity of ceremonies that you here thus pleade for It is cleare thē by that practise that for all this and whatsoeuer else any where either these or any other doctour before that time had writen hereof that then there was no such danger imagined to bee in omitting of these as your Tridentine coūcell now would make men beleeue there is But for a general answere to al that you or any of your side haue or can alleadge out of any father either for the iustifying your kinde of vsing these your ceremonies or any of the other three points that follow in this Chapter as long as you are not able to warrant your doings and opiniōs therin by the scriptures which we are sure you shall neuer be able to doe by the fathers leaue though they were as pregnant for you as you pretend which they are not neither that by the direction and aduise of the best of themselues we will may chuse for all their writings whither we will like any whit the better of them or no. For Hierom saieth that all things which mē seeke out and inuent at their owne pleasure without authority and testimony of the scripture as though they were the traditions of the Apostles the sword of God cutteth of Vpon the first of Aggei And Origen in his first homily vpon Hierom confesseth that their iudgements without witnes of the scripture were of no credit And Hierom againe vpon the 98. Psalme writeth that all which they spake they were to proue by the scriptures and vpon the 23. of Mat. he saieth plainely that which hath not authority from the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And Chrysostome vpon the 2. to Tim. Hom. 9. saieth if there be any thing either to learne or to be ignorant of we shall learne it in the scriptures And as for all other authority Hilary saieth in his 7. booke of the trinity that it is short darke troublesome And as for Augustine he of all the rest hath most plainely taught vs this in his 19. Epistle to Hierom and also in his 111. epistle to Fortunatian where he plainely shewes that hee gaue no further credit to any mans writings then he found them agreeable to the scriptures and therefore de baptismo contra Donatistas li. 2. cap. 3. he refuseth to be pressed either with the authority of Cyprian or any other man or councell further then by the canonicall scriptures their iudgements are approued and he teacheth Paulina in his 112. epistle not to follow his authority or to beleeue a thing because he hath said it but to beleue the canonicall scripture We saie therefore with him lib. 1. cap. 22. de peccatorum meritis remissione let vs yeeld cōsent vnto the holy scriptures which can neither deceaue nor be deceaued
wel to proue that then of such notorious faults there was vsed and lookt for publicke and sorrowfull confession But what is this to the enumeration of all sinnes remembred in secret in the eare of a Priest Sure I am in that sermon before he came to these wordes contrary to your doctrine and practise in this very point he teacheth that veniam peccatis quae in ipsum cōmissa sunt solus potest ille largiri qui peccata nostra portauit c. that is he onely can giue vs pardon for our sinnes that bore our sinnes c. adding streight man cannot be greater then God neither can he being a seruant by his indulgence remit or forgiue that which is grieuously cōmitted against God least so to him that is fallē this fault come vnto his other that he forget that it was saied lōg ago Hier. 17. cursed is that man that hath his trust in man And therefore both immediatly and thorow that sermon he is earnest to moue them that were fallen to fly to God in prayer in weeping and mourning Now indeede both for their better direction to turne vnto the Lorde effectually and for the further declaration and testification of their repentance to be vnfeyned he would haue confession of such their falles to be made with all sorrowfulnes before the Lords Priests Let this doctrine therefore of his onely be receaued and your auricular confession will come short home For if none but such that haue so fallen as he there speakes of should confesse such their falles and that onely to that ende that he teacheth without all opinion when they haue done that any can absolue them but God your confessours and ghostly fathers as you tearme them might be set a begging for any liuing they could get by hearing of confessions The next you alleadge is Origen vpon the 37. Psalme and in his 2. Hom. vpon Leuiticus wherin indeede he coūselleth those that haue fallen into any greeuous sinne though secret yet to seeke out some discreet and skilful Phisition to open their disease and distresse of minde vnto that according to his counsell and aduise they may doe either in publickly confessing of them or otherwise in repenting of them and this is the most that can be made of any thing fated by Origen in these two places but this his coūsel may bee followed thorowly and yet you come very short of prouing the necessity by gods law of your auricular confession or speciall and precise enumeration of all the sinnes and circumstances thereof in the eare of a Priest The phisicke that they fought at the Priestes handes in these cases was direction how to repent and to recouer comfort vnder the burden of their sinnes by the meanes of such comfortable doctrine and coūsell that he should giue them out of the booke of God and the thing that you seeke for at their hands is absolution to be pronounced by them vnto you for your so confessing So that neither for matter to be confessed nor for the ende thereof haue you any warrant and countenance from them After Origē Augustines 2. booke de visitatione infirmorum is produced in which booke the authour threatneth dānatiō to such as hauing sinned shunned the iudgement of men yet tooke not occasion by the consideration of Gods iudgement which they could not shunne to repent and amend but if they iudged and amended themselues he doeth not so Allen will not stand to it that those bookes were Augustines writing of this matter And Erasmus censure therof was that it is sermo locutulei nec docti nec diserti that is it is the speech of some pratler neither learned nor elequent yea hee addeth what forehead or minde had they that thrust vpon vs such writings vnder the name of Augustine And the diuines of Louain say flatly it was none of his therfore with farre more credit to your cause might you haue let this testimony alone and neuer haue mentioned it But whosoeuer were the authour thereof no more can be grounded thereupon but that be thought it good to further the repentance of the party that hee should confesse his sinne that he had fallen into and offended Gods Church withal to the minister that by him he might be dealt withall by correption admonition or consolation as he saw good And the edge of his speech is not simply against such as did refuse to confesse their sinnes to Gods ministers but onely against such as refusing so to doe did not repent for he saieth si ea confiteri aut emendare noluerint and againe si in malo permanserint that is if they will not confesse them nor amend and if they continue in euill Besides if the words in the place quoted by you be well marked it wil therby sufficiently appeare in that there were then so many reasons that staied men as there by that authours wordes it seemeth there were from cōfessing to the priests that it was not then thought that so to confesse sinnes was so necessary as you would now pretend yours to be If it had beene either thought to be simply necessary by Gods law or it then had beene thought and knowen to be a set law of the Church to confesse sinnes in secret to the ministers why haue not you nor yet any of your side brought vs any anciēt doctor that euer vsed either of these reasons to perswade men vnto it Cyril in his 12. booke vpō Ioh. cap. 56. is the fourth man you cite for this purpose which place if you had euer read you should haue found him to set down this first as a most sure principle that only God is he that must loose a man from his sinnes for to whom else saieth he shall it be lawfull to deliuer transgressours of the law but vnto the authour of the Lawe himselfe Which position if it were receaued there would be smal hast made to your eare shrift But then indeede it followeth in him how then did Christ giue this diuine power to his Apostles Whereunto his answere is that he gaue it them because he gaue them the holy ghost because the holy ghost by thē forgaue sins which he sheweth the holy ghost did by vsing their ministry to baptise men and to bring them to repentance by rebuking of sinners and by shewing them fauour againe as Paul dealt with the man of Corinth So that you see his doctrine is there that men come to haue their sins forgiuen them by the holy ghosts vsing our ministry effectually to bring men to repentance where to make auricular confession to men of all their sinnes is not reckoned vp as anie meanes whereby in the Apostles or by the Apostles the holy ghost forgaue anie their sinnes but to preach the worde to minister the Sacraments and to vse the censures of the Church in due season are noted to bee the meanes Hee sendeth vs there you see to the example of Pauls dealing with the man of Corinth of
this life to proue both the popish purgatory and praier for the dead let vs but take a vew first in what sence they haue spoken thereof how vncertainely and inconstantly And to begin with Origen both because hee was the ancienter because hee was first named in the very second place here quoted by Albin he speaketh of purging in the fire of hel and in the other of purging in such fire as will consume in them that hold the foundation their wood hay stubble that they built thereupon that so when their soules depart from their bodies they maie go to heauen which with those vnconsumed they cannot which consuming fire he saieth is God For his words in the latter place are these He that despiseth the purifications of the word of God and doctrine of the gospel reserueth himselfe to sorowful paineful purifications that the fire of hel in torments may purge him whō neither the Apostles doctrine nor word of the gospell hath purged And in the other preaching I am sure they wil graunt to men aliue and not to the dead his words the better to make thē to looke whiles they were aliue that they caried no wood hay nor stubble with thē vnconsumed be these if after Christ the foūdatiō thou buildest thereupō not gold siluer pretious stones only in the minde if thou hast any such but also hay wood stubble what wouldest thou be done with thee when thy soule shal be seperated frō the body Whither wilt thou with thy wood hay stubble enter in to the holy places and so defile the kingdome of God Or for thē tary without for the other leese thy reward which is not meet neither What followeth then but the first for these fire bee giuen thee to cōsume thē But God is the cōsuming fire of these whereupō a litle after he exhorts al mē that haue any such matter in them that they would know their owne faults in time amend them The first place is in his 8. booke and 11. chapter vpon the Romans and the other in 12. homily vpon Hieremie euen as Albine cyteth him Now who seeth not by this that the purging place that he speakes of in the second place is hell it selfe and that the other is in this life whiles Gods childrē warned in time whiles they are here doe let the fire of Gods spirite both reueale vnto them and consume in them all their vnsuteable building to the foūdation whither it be in religion or maners what places then were these vnles the papistes bee growen now to be of opinion that the partition wall betwixt hell and their purgatory is quite pulled downe and al become verie hell or else that their purgatorie is in this life to alleadge either for purgatory or praiers for the deade Further touching Origens fansies about purging after this life August de ciuitate Dei l. 21. c. 17. saith that the very diuell his angels after certaine grieuous and long lasting punishments shal be freed and deliuered from those torments and ioyned againe in society with the holy Angels as Origen beleeued And vpon Luke hom 14. Origen himselfe saieth I think after the resurrection from the dead we al shal stand neede of a sacrament to clēse and purge vs for none can arise againe without his defilings And vpō the 36. Ps hom 3. he writeth that he thought that it was needful that all should come into the purging fire though hee were Paul or Peter and of the same mind he seemeth to be vpō the Num. hom 25. which if you vnderstād of any purging fire of tribulatiō or of the inward effectuall operatiō of the fier of Gods spirit to lightē to purge consume our darke sinfull and erronious harts for so sometime hee and others of the ancient writers speake then these places make nothing for your purgatory which is after this life if otherwise you vnderstand him of some fire to purge after this life so neither is he anie procter for your purgatory to the which you sende onely the middle sort neither very good nor very bad A man therefore may wel think that you are neere driuen for proofes for your purgatorie or prayer for the dead when you run to these or anie such places in Origen that speaketh thereof so variablie and not onelie farre from your sence but sometimes euen in your owne iudgement aswel as in ours very heretically Now as for Augustine if what he hath writen of purgatory be well considered your arguments from him will proue as weake as from Origen For whereas some of you alleadge him vpon the 103. Psal serm 3. for purgatory it is plaine that he there speaketh of that purging by fire which he supposed would be in the end of the world whē all should be on fire and the good separated from the bad which fancy he rather chused to fall into then to holde with Origen that there is any purging in hell The same Augustine most commonly vnderstandeth that place of S. Paul 1. Cor. 3. of the fire of tribulalation and affliction wkereby men are tried and purged as he proueth out of the scripture in this life as golde in the fornace And as for a meane place of purging any betwixt death the iudgement he writeth sometimes confidently that there is none such and sometimes he leaueth it in doubt For in his fifth booke Hypognost against the Pelagians he acknowledgeth heauen to bee the place for the godly and hel-fire for the wicked but a third place saieth he we are altogither ignorant of neither doe we finde any in the holy scriptures In like sort de verbis Apostoli ser 14. he acknowledgeth these two againe but a middle place hee vtterlie denieth because there is no mention thereof in the gospell I know it is answered that when he saieth thus hee setteth himselfe against the Pelagians third place which they assigned for infants dying vnbaptised But then yet I reply and say if hee had beene resolued of the popish third place purgatorie hee would and should haue saied there was no fourth place and not no third if to this it bee reioyned as I know it is by some that he disputed not there whither there were any more places then two before the last iudgement but whither there were any more then two euerlasting receptacles after that iudgement also to continue and that in that sence onely he was resolute there was but two how then will they shift that of his de ciuitate Dei lib. 13. cap. 8. where deuiding all that die into good and bad immediately vpon their death he saieth that the soules of the Godly separated from their bodies are in rest and the soules of the other are in paines whiles the bodies of those rise againe to euerlasting life and the others to euerlasting paine which is the second death For here they cannot deny he speaketh of the time state of soules before the
true word of god since the Apostles time there hath bene h I would meÌ„ would could read theÌ„ as you wish for theÌ„ I am sure they shuld find theÌ„ to be far more with vs theÌ„ with you neuer a Christian doctour in the Church for they haue all taught the contrary to your forged gospell as euery man may see that will take the paine but to looke in their workes or to read those places that are quoted by me and diuers others that haue confuted your heresies many a hundred years agone by their authorities Let them then that haue any eies beholde the hazard that yee runne into and so many others throughout the world which followe your opinion i EueÌ„ thus do you with vs If one should come to accuse an other of falsehoode and that before hee bee assured of this matter wherewith hee did seeke to atteinte the defendaunt would not one thinke his matter verie great or his knowledge verie small to run headlong into the danger of that crime which if he could not proue he should be condemned for himselfe What then shall become of you O most simple sheepe which seeke with fained arguments to condemne not one or two k These are but words feare theÌ„ not but seeing the man had nothing else he thought good belike to haue enough of them and those swelling enough but all the Christians and Catholiques that haue beene in this world since the passion of Christ the which haue refused and reproued your doctrine as hereticall haue taught vs this that we hold at this day But now to answere vnto that that was mentioned a little before that which a nuÌ„ber of your flocke haue told me when I haue conferred with theÌ„ which is that l We doe not hold that ignoraâ—ce wil excuse any that dye out of the true faith of Christ and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale the errour of our predecessours was not imputed vnto theÌ„ forasmuch as these good simple people went to worke after the grossest sort thinking to doe well and that as then they did not vnderstand well the trueth which is now brought to light through your gospell I say that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion m You would seeme then belike that your simâ—le and ignoraÌ„t papistâ— haue all beene great and profound claâ— kes for before some of them died they had forgotten more theÌ„ euer you haue learned for all that that you knowe you haue learned it of their bookes or stollen it to saie the trueth interpreting both their workes the scriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning And although it were so that they had al erred your coloured excuse of simplicity could auaile them nothing for the word of God would accuse them If n I am glad to heare you cite this testimony to pâ—oue that ignorance of the gospell shall not excuse any but why plead you then sometime that ignorance is the mother of deuotion the Gospel saith * 2. Corinth 4. S. Paul had bene hidden it hath beene hiddeÌ„ to those that haue perished the spirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded theÌ„ if that those vnto whom the trueth hath beene hidden haue perished wherefore doeth your excuse serue theÌ„ This being true as it is most like I meane that they haue not erred nor that you onely shal be saued they all condemned To my iudgement our auncestours with al their simplicitie did neuer erre so much as your disciples doe to follow such masters o This brag hath beene vsed so often without proofe that now it is stole and lothsome as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught mainteined these 1500. yeares to mainteine those heresies that haue bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone now are called vp againe by Martin Luther Caluin his fellowes The XXXVIII Chapter THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter by that which I haue saied in answering of the former hath appeared I hope sufficieÌ„tly already but whensoeuer it shall please you or any for you to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader to bring vs forth this number of Doctours confessours martyrs that you here boast of and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words or other good euidence that they were liuing dying so on your side as you here pretend I doubt not but one of vs or other will easily make it euident vnto the world that you are far greater in words and shew then you are in deedes and trueth You would haue your reader beleeue that onely to auoide tediousnes to him you haue forborne by their testimonies liuing and dying here to confirme all the rest of your doctrine and all that you doe vse at this day but alas your owne conscience telleth you that indeed not onely the tediousnes of it to your selfe but the impossibility of it altogither drew you to be glad to vse this prety shift piece of cuÌ„ning to salue your credit your causes with him CoÌ„sidering therfore what already hath beene answered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter in whose euidence for those matters belike you durst be boldest what otherwise vpon sundry other occasions in answering of your booke I haue set downe out of theÌ„ directly to proue the contrary to this that you say you could proue out of theÌ„ your question with vpon the supposall of your brag here to be but a trueth you haue inferred put forth whither these doctours confessours martyrs that you talke of be in heauen or hel is childish friuolous needles For you know well enough that there is neuer a doctour confessour or Martyr of any credit and worthie so to be accounted for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in but though in some of them we doe not deny there might be found some inclinations towards some things now held by you that yet we holde that forasmuch as not onely they held with vs the foundation and other principall points of Christian Religion wherein you are contrary both vnto them vs but that also the Lord in his mercy towards them kept theÌ„ in the rest froÌ„ the grossenes impiety that you are therein fallen into since that they were and are ours and not yours And therefore we comfortably assure our selues that they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did though they as men builded thereupon some wood hay stubble yet the Lord souÌ„d the meanes by the fire of his spirit and affliction so to descrie the same vnto them to coÌ„sume al that vnsutable building in them ere they went hence that we neede not thorow any such scrupulositie of conscience as you imagine feare to giue our iudgement or opinion of them For wee feare not their being in hell for
defy detest theÌ„ their frantick opinions as much as any and of all men we haue beene the forwardest in writing against them And therefore they doe vs the more wrong when at any time they aggrauate this obiection against vs by charging vs to haue such amongst vs whom thus we shunne and mislike aswell as they Thus much therfore let suffice for answere to this fourth signe and now let vs proceede to the next The next is not to obey but resist the Prelates of the Church which hee would proue so to bee by Pauls saying 2. Tim. 3. like as Iannes and â—ambres resisted Moses so doe these resist the trueth being men of corrupt mindes reprobates in faith of which fault when the learned protestant can proue them guilty and vs cleare he promiseth to recant It seemeth the man in alleadging this text did trust his memory too much for twise he hath writen MaÌ„bres for IaÌ„bres but if that were all his fault here it were a small matter But here againe according to his old woont he must haue it freely giueÌ„ and granted him for he bringeth nothing at all to proue it that their Bishops and Prelates are all such as Moses Paul was that is faithfull in teaching only Gods people the truth For vnles this be yeelded him it neither may be granted him that he rightly applieth his text nor this signe against vs. But he knoweth well enough and so doe all the packe of theÌ„ that we are so far from being so prodigall in our gifts vnto them that we hold their prelates bishops Priests to be very IaÌ„nes Iambres in resisting our Bishops and ministers in teaching the same truth that they haue learned of Moses Paul and that therefore we thinke no better of them then of men of corrupt mindes reprobate in the faith For which cause we are sure we both may and ought to disobey them and resist them as we doe For so we finde that Esay Hieremy Amos Michaiah Christ and his Apostles in their times refused to obey and resisted the false doctrine of the false Prophets and high Priests that theÌ„ were What a vanity is it therefore in this man to trouble his reader with such colde and poore stuffe as this is And truely hee hath no better happe in the last then in any of the former For setting it downe that ficklenesse and slipperinesse of errours and heresies is a signe and sure token to bewray the authors thereof and that the catholique faith or trueth is likewise to be knowen by the constant stability thereof he saieth that which we grant to be very true as willingly as he or any of his side Insomuch that coÌ„monly it is one of the principall reasons that we vse to proue their opinions that we striue against them for to be errours or heresies theÌ„selues for now holding them so obstinatly as they doe heretiques for that we are able to shew how by stealing and soft paces stily they began first to creepe in and so went on froÌ„ worse to worse vntill to vse his owne tearme they came ad prosuÌ„dum maloruÌ„ that is euen to the depth of all euill that they are now growen vnto therein Who so readeth my answere to Albines publishers preface and the 37. Chapter of my answere to Albine himselfe shall finde that in a good sort of their opinions I haue shewed this But to proue this that it is the property of heretiques to be fickle and mouing and so soone to perish passe away he alleadgeth S. Peter saying that lying masters doe bring vpoÌ„ theÌ„selues swift daÌ„nation their destruction sleepeth not which he spake of gods iudgements yâ— vndoubtedly should ouertake such meÌ„ not as he vnderstandeth him to shew that their opinions alwaies should soone passe away and vanish In the former sence it is alwaies fouÌ„d true that S. Peter writeth either here or els where or both but take it in the later sence then Peter shall often be found to haue prophecied of such vntruly For who knoweth not that the grosse errours of Turcism are of very long continuance that the errour of the Aethiopians for circumcision is far more ancients and that yet it continueth And must not of necessity the errours and heresies of Antichrist be of very long continuance seeing Paul as we haue heard confesseth that the mystery of that iniquity beganne to worken in his time aboue 1500. years ago and that it should not quite be abolished before Christs second comming who then should yet by the brightnesse of his comming abolish it 2. Thess 2 The trueth of whose prophecy in that place is the very true ground of the antiquity vniuersality and continuance of the popish and Antichristian Religion So that howsoeuer it hath fallen out in some heresies that they haue in Gods most wise prouidence euen quickely brought themselues to an ende by their ficklenes moouing yet it appeareth in that place the sinne of not beleeuing the trueth so notably taught and confirmed by Christ and his Apostles in the iust iudgement of God by Antichristianity is so seuerely to be punished that therewith euen from the Apostles daies to the ende of the worlde they that commit that sinne shall bee in danger to bee deluded and seduced most dangerously Which I say and sure I am I can proue it hath beene and yet is most notoriously verifyed by popery to the wonderfull hurt and destruction of soules Howbeit this man would faine apply this signe vnto vs for that amongst vs as it pleaseth him to write here in England for the loue we beare to the doctrine of the Zwinglians Oecolampadians and Caluinists the Lutherans haue takeÌ„ their iust ouerthrow and for that now here Precisians and Puritans as he saith through the affection of the common people and so winking at them by some magestrates haue brought the Zwinglians and Caluinists to be ready to yeeld vp the ghost and to tilt vp their heeles But these are but vaine words and proue not his purpose For all these howsoeuer in other matters of lesser moment they too much disagree yet as I haue saied before and as it is notoriously knowen for the principall articles of religion coÌ„cerning faith or maners they are in constant vnity holding the same all of them that they haue learned in these points out of the Canonical scriptures as the harmony of their confessions extant to the world in print make it euident As for the seuerall and priuate opinions of Luther and his too earnest followers which we now mislike we haue likewise alwaies misliked and therefore in that respect they haue no other ouerthrow amongst vs then they alwaies since we first heard of them haue had and howsoeuer in these points we rather prefer Zuinglius and Caluins iudgement then theirs yet certaine it is that we build not our faith of them nor of them or by them delight we to be called we protest and professe our selues