Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	error_n	time_n	writ_n	1,465	5	9.4487	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A57925	The Tryal of Thomas, Earl of Strafford, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, upon an impeachment of high treason by the Commons then assembled in Parliament, in the name of themselves and of all the Commons in England, begun in Westminster-Hall the 22th of March 1640, and continued before judgment was given until the 10th of May, 1641 shewing the form of parliamentary proceedings in an impeachment of treason : to which is added a short account of some other matters of fact transacted in both houses of Parliament, precedent, concomitant, and subsequent to the said tryal : with some special arguments in law relating to a bill of attainder / faithfully collected, and impartially published, without observation or reflection, by John Rushworth of Lincolnes-Inn, Esq.	Strafford, Thomas Wentworth, Earl of, 1593-1641, defendant.; Rushworth, John, 1612?-1690.; England and Wales. Parliament. House of Commons.	1680 (1680)	Wing R2333; ESTC R22355	652,962	626

the Statute of the Eight and twentieth year of Hen. 6th in Ireland it is declared in these words That Ireland is the proper Dominion of England and united to the Crown of England which Crown of England is of it self and by it self wholly and entirely endowed with all Power and Authority sufficient to yield to the Subjects of the same full and plenary remedy in all Debates and Suits whatsoever By the Statute of the Three and twentieth year of Henry the 8th the first Chapter when the Kings of England first assumed the Title of King of Ireland it is there Enacted that Ireland still is to be held as a Crown annexed and united to the Crown of England So that by the same reason from this that the Kings Writs run not in Ireland it might as well be held that the Parliament cannot originally hold Plea of things done within the County-Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the Five Ports and Wales Ireland is a part of the Realm of England as appears by those Statutes as well as any of them This is made good by constant practice in all the Parliament Rolls from the first to the last there are Receivers and Tryers of Petitions appointed for Ireland for the Irish to come so far with their Petitions for Justice and the Parliament not to have cognizance when from time to time they had in the beginning of the Parliament appointed Receivers and Tryers of them is a thing not to be presumed An Appeal in Ireland brought by William Lord Vesey against Iohn Fitz-Thomas for Treasonable words there spoken before any Judgment given in Case there was removed into the Parliament in England and there the Defendant acquitted as appears in the Parliament Pleas of the Two and twentieth year of Edw. 1. The Suits for Lands Offices and Goods originally begun here are many and if question grew upon matter in fact a Jury usually ordered to try it and the Verdict returned into the Parliament as in the Case of one Ballyben in the Parliament of the Five and thirtieth year of Edward the 1. If a doubt arose upon a matter tryable by Record a Writ went to the Officers in whose custody the Record remained to certifie the Record as was in the Case of Robert Bagott the same Parliament of the Five and thirtieth year of Edward the 1. where the Writ went to the Treasurer and Barons of the Exchequer Sometimes they gave Judgement here in Parliament and commanded the Judges there in Ireland to do execution as in the great Case of Partition between the Copartners of the Earl Marshal in the Parliament of the Three and thirtieth of Edward the 1. where the Writ was awarded to the Treasurer of Ireland My Lords The Laws of Ireland were introduced by the Parliament of England as appears by Three Acts of the Parliament before cited It is of higher Jurisdiction Dare Leges then to judge by them The Parliaments of England do bind in Ireland if Ireland be particularly mentioned as is resolved in the Book-Case of the First year of Henry the Seventh Cook 's Seventh Report Calvin's Case and by the Judges in Trinity-Term in the Three and thirtieth year of Queen Elizabeth The Statute of the Eighth year of Edward the 4th the first Chapter in Ireland recites That it was doubted amongst the Judges whether all the English Statutes though not naming Ireland were in force there if named no doubt From King Henry the 3. his time downwards to the Eighth year of Queen Elizabeth by which Statute it is made Felony to carry Sheep from Ireland beyond Seas in almost all these Kings Reigns there be Statutes made concerning Ireland The exercising of the Legislative Power there over their Lives and Estates is higher than of the Judicial in question Until the 29th year of Edward the 3. erroneous Judgements given in Ireland were determinable no where but in England no not in the Parliament of Ireland as it appears in the close Rolls in the Tower in the 29th year of Edw. the 3. Memb. 12. Power to examine and reverse erroneous Judgments in the Parliaments of Ireland is granted from hence Writs of Error lye in the Parliament here upon erroneous Judgements after that time given in the Parliaments of Ireland as appears in the Parliament Rolls of the Eighth year of Henry the 6th No. 70. in the Case of the Prior of Lenthan It is true the Case is not determined there for it 's the last thing that came into the Parliament and could not be determined for want of time but no exception at all is taken to the Jurisdiction The Acts of Parliament made in Ireland have been confirmed in the Parliaments of England as appears by the close Rolls in the Tower in the Two and fortieth year of Edw. the 3. Memb. 20. Dorso where the Parliament in Ireland for the preservation of the Countrey from Irish who had almost destroyed it made an Act That all the Land-Owners that were English should reside upon their Lands or else they were to be forfeited this was here confirmed In the Parliament of the Fourth year of Henry the 5th Chap. 6. Acts of Parliament in Ireland are confirmed and some priviledges of the Peers in the Parliaments there are regulated Power to repeal Irish Statutes Power to confirm them cannot be by the Parliament here if it hath not cognizance of their Parliaments unless it be said that the Parliament may do it knows not what Garnsey and Iersey are under the Kings subjection but are not parcels of the Crown of England but of the Duchy of Normandy they are not governed by the Laws of England as Ireland is and yet Parliaments in England have usually held Plea of and determined all Causes concerning Lands or Goods In the Parliament in the 33 Edw. 1. there be Placita de Insula Iersey And so in the Parliament 14 Edw. 2. and so for Normandy and Gascoigne and always as long as any part of France was in subjection to the Crown of England there were at the beginning of the Parliaments Receivers and Tryers of Petitions for those parts appointed I believe your Lordships will have no Case shewed of any Plea to the jurisdiction of the Parliaments of England in any things done in any parts wheresoever in subjection to the Crown of England The last thing I shall offer to your Lordships is the Case of 19 Eliz. in my Lord Dyer 306. and Judge Crompton's Book of the jurisdiction of Courts fol. 23. The opinion of both these Books is That an Irish Peer is not Tryable here it 's true a Scotch or French Nobleman is tryable here as a common person the Law takes no notice of their Nobility because those Countreys are not governed by the Laws of England but Ireland being governed by the same Laws the Peers there are Tryable according to the Law of England only per pares By the same reason the Earl of Strafford not being a Peer of Ireland is

the Money thought it unequal some should pay and some go free And Secondly he said it was the opinion of the City of London That a Writ for Ship-Money and a Writ for a Parliament did not agree well together and for these reasons he found it very difficult they were called up and hastened both in the Assessment of Collection and in respect they found every man adverse to it the business had not that progress nor speedy execution it might otherwise have had and as it had in former times And when he had told His Majesty this it was ill taken that he should deal so plainly because he did discover himself clearly and freely what was the fruit of the business And it pleased my Lord of Strafford then in the presence of the King to speak Sir you will never do good on this man till you have made him an example he is too Diffident or to this purpose unless you commit him you shall do no good upon him This concerning the Ship-Money Concerning the Loan-Money when they came with the Aldermen together he the Examinant desired he might be call'd in singly because he was very loath knowing the humour of the Court of Aldermen how they stood affected that they should give the King a negative Answer at the Board and it pleased His Majesty to call him the Examinant in singly and he told His Majesty in his hearing at that time That there was no good to be done for amongst all the Aldermen he could not yet consent to raise above 6 or 7000 pound at the most And then they were to bring in out of every of the several Wards the Names of all the able men of the City of London that could lend Money wherein it was required they should set it down what every man was fit to lend This they altogether declined for we thought it not fit we should rate mens purses and he the Examinant himself presented the Size-Cinque the Quater-tres men and the Deux-ace men according to their qualities but set a rate on men we did not and desired His Majesty we might be spared Hereupon my Lord of Strafford at that time burst out into these words Sir You will never do good to these Citizens of London till you have made examples of some of the Aldermen This to his best remembrance he said Unless you hang up some of them you will doe no good upon them This is the substance of what he heard Being asked whether this was immediately after the breach of the Parliament He Answered That he cannot confine himself in time he desired to be spared in that but he was several times at the Council-Table but it was after the breaking of the Parliament My Lord of Strafford observing that Alderman Garaway spake it only to his best remembrance he was Interrogated Whether he could speak it positively He Answered That it is a great while ago and he did hear the words that 's certain Being asked by my Lord of Strafford whether he himself spake them He Answered Yes my Lord your Lordship did speak them My Lord desiring leave to recollect himself a little said he will speak with as much truth albeit not with so much confidence as this Gentleman And after a little respite he began his Defence as followeth The Defendant must still insist on this ground which hitherto he hath gone upon under their Lordships good leave That there is nothing in this Article that can possibly convince him of High-Treason admit it all proved as it is laid down in the Charge he hath very little to Answer for there is little proved the greatest part is offered on a single Testimony which as he hath heretofore mentioned he humbly conceives by the Laws of the Land cannot be charged upon him in case of Treason for nothing can be charged upon him in case of Treason without two lawful Witnesses For the advice my Lord Treasurer says he gave in case of levying Ship-Money surely he advised no other ways than as had been formerly used 3 or 4 years before his coming into the Kingdom so that if it be an error he was led into it by the practice of former times and of wiser men than himself Besides there was then as he conceives a Judgement given in the Exchequer-Chamber and he hath learnt always in his own practice by reason of his own weakness of judgement never to be wiser than his Teachers or to pretend to know more in other mens professions than they know themselves And therefore there being a Judgement given in point of Law by the Judges it was not for him to dispute what they had done but with all humility to submit it to better judgements than his own so that to advise such a thing as it then stood he hopes will be excusable and pardonable in him albeit he doth not justify himself in it in respect of something he hath heard and learnt since that time and taught him likewise by wiser men than himself And as he then followed that which was delivered by the Judges so he shall for the future follow what he hath learnt by others that ought to be believed and by him credited before himself But in the mean time he conceives it a pardonable fault and shall never be drawn up or put into the Scale against him as Treason To the other words testified to be spoken by him at the Council-Table He Answers That he might hold the Aldermen lyable or subject to Fine and Ransome in case they did not submit to the Kings Demands for so on the matter my Lord of Berkshire repeats the words truly such hath been and shall be his ingenuity in all things concerning this business that these words he hath already acknowledged and confest to be by him spoken and he confessed now he did say That in his opinion in a Case of that great necessity and imminent danger which he conceived the Kingdom to be in their refusal might perchance make them lyable to Fine and Ransome but the words as he remembers them were appliable not to that particular but to another For he says and he says truly the words were spoken to hasten and speed my Lord Mayor in the services that were commanded him not out of any intention or purpose to do him hurt by further moving or prosecuting any thing against him He confesses he wishes he had not spoken them but being spoken and spoken to that end and purpose as high a thing as this might have been passed over and not charged on him as a crime but rather as an extravagant saying which God forbid a man should be Arraigned for in this kind as he is and a little excess of Speech he trusts by their Lordships Favour and Goodness may be excused if not pardoned at least so much pardoned as it shall not be laid to him as Treason when it is but a hasty word and nothing follows upon it For the other words

divert the Earl of Argile in case he joined with the Covenanters Army against the King but it was mentioned in the King's Letter 2. Mertii 1639. he had purposely given out That they should join with the King's Army at Berwick to colour other Designs but the true cause of their Levying was made known to be as aforesaid unto the Earl of Ormond Sir Iohn Burlace and the Marquiss of Hamilton and Earl of Northumberland at the time of the writing the Letter and he denies the words charged in the Articles or any other words to such intent and purpose To the 23th he saith The matters of the Parliament were no otherwise referred to him than to the rest of the Council that coming sick from Ireland about ten days after the Parliament were set and after the Treaty with the Earl of Dunfermline Lord Lowdon Scotch Commissioners was broken off and the Army preparing and the Parliament not supplying Monies as His Majesty desired His Majesty advised what might move them to prefer His Supply in debate whereof he humbly advised His Majesty by a Message to the House to lay down Ship-Money and promise never to demand it and give way to reverse the Judgment by a Writ of Error in Parliament and to promise a Redress of Grievances when they should be prepared And secondly That they would presently agree upon such Supply as should maintain His Army for reducing the Scots to their Obedience wherein their Safety and His Honour was concerned His Majesty assented conditionally that he might have 12 Subsidies the Earl besought Him that it might not pass as a Condition but to Relinquish Ship-Money and put himself upon their Affections and drew up the Message in Writing and delivered it to Mr. Secretary Vane to deliver to the House of Commons He desired to know if His Majesty would not take less than 12 His Majesty Answered He feared less would not serve His Occasions The Earl of Strafford besought His Majesty to accept of Eight so His Majesty assented and desired Mr. Secretary to signifie so much as occasion should be offered but whether he did so or not the said Earl knoweth not The House of Commons being in debate two days and not Resolving His Majesty about the 5th of May last called a Council at Seven of the Clock in the Morning the said Earl being sick came late and was told as he remembreth by the Earl of Bark-shire the King had declared His Resolution to Dissolve the Parliament the Earl of Strafford besought His Majesty to hear the Advice of His Council and first of those that were Members of the House of Commons by whom the rest might the better be guided Mr. Secretary Windebank said He feared the House would first be Answered of their Grievances and Voted for a Breach of the Parliament Mr. Secretary Vane in opposite terms said That there was no hope that they would give the King a Penny and therefore absolutely Voted for a Breach And the Earl of Strafford conceiving His Majesties Pleasure to have accepted Eight Subsidies had been delivered to the House of Commons by Mr. Secretary Vane did in His Majesties turn deliver his Vote for Breach of the Parliament which otherwise he would not have done it being contrary to what he Resolved when he came thither and like Opinion was delivered by the rest of the Lords being about twenty except two or three at the most The Parliament being Dissolved His Majesty desired Advice of His Council How money might be raised affirming That the Scotch Army was ready to enter into the Kingdom The said Earl in presence of others in the Council delivered his Opinion That in a Case of absolute and unavoidable necessity which neither would nor could be prevented by ordinary remedies provided by the Laws nor all His Majesties other means sufficient to defend the Common wealth Himself or their Lives and Estates from an Enemy without force of Arms either actually entred or daily expected to Invade the Realm He conceived that His Majesty was absolved from ordinary Rules and might use in as moderate a way the necessity of the Cause would permit all ways and means for defence of Himself and Kingdom for that he conceived in such extremity Salus Populi was Suprema Lex provided it were not colourable nor any thing demanded imployed to other use nor drawn into Example when Law and Justice might take place and that when Peace was setled Reparation was to be given to particular men otherwise it would be unjust This was not officiously declared but in Council forced by the duty of the Oath of a Counsellor which is that he shall in all things to be moved treated and debated in Council faithfully and truly declare his Mind and Opinion according to his Heart and Conscience which Oath the said Earl took and humbly prays their Lordships Consideration thereof He denieth the words in the Article or any words to the intent thereby expressed To the 24th he saith He delivered his Opinion with such Cautions and Restrictions as in the Answer to the Precedent Article and is well assured his Discourse at all times hath been without ill Intentions to either of the Houses of Parliament which he ever did and shall think and speak of with all Reverence He denies that he knew of the Publishing or Printing of the Book nor who caused it to be Printed or Published for at that time he was sick in his Bed more like to die than to live To the 25th he saith Ship-Money was levied and adjudged to be due before his coming over Sheriffs were then called up as before and not otherwise If any were sued in Star-Chamber it was without any particular indeavour of his It appearing at the Board That the Mayor and Sheriffs of London had been slow in Collecting Ship-Money he said They were but Ministerial and ought to Exact and not dispute the King's Writs and that if through their remisness the King should be less able to provide for the Publick Safety when any Forreign Army was ready to enter the Kingdom they might deserve to be Fined and Ransomed which he spake more to hasten them than of purpose to advise any such Prosecution but denies the other words being under favour such Expressions as he is not accustomed unto To the 26th he saith He advised not either of those Projects being then sick in Bed but it being debated at the Council-Table Whether it were better for the King to raise Gold and Silver or Coin base Money He for the Reasons then given delivered his Opinion for the latter Sundry Merchants Adventurers coming to his house desired him to move His Majesty then at Oatlands to Release the Bullion or Money he told them He knew of no such thing and would not meddle with it nor would his Health permit him to go abroad and said That if their denying the King in such a Publick Danger the Loan of 100000 l. upon good Security the King

particular witnesses only I shall humbly desire That the Remonstrance of the Parliament of Ireland both of the Lords and of the Commons may be read And they will give a sufficient Testimony of the quality of his Justice 14. The 14th My Lords is this That he hath been a Means to His Majesty for a Parliament in England It is true he was And it is as true that we count that as mischievous a part of his design as any thing else Into what a miserable Dilemma My Lords did he bring the Kingdom that we must surrender the Liberties of the Kingdom in Parliament or see them oppressed with Force and Violence out of Parliament The particulars of this I shall leave for the instant for there is an Article that concerns this I have now passed through all the material parts of the Apologetical Preamble He concludes with a desire That he may not be charged with Errors of his understanding or Judgment being not bred up in the Law or with weakness to which humane Nature is subject Truly it would be far from us to charge him with any such mistakes No My Lords we shall charge him with nothing but what the Law in every mans breast condemns the Light of nature the Light of common reason the Rules of common Society And that will appear in all the Articles which my Colleagues will offer to you My Lords I have some few Witnesses which I shall desire may be heard to the points I have opened and I shall in the first place desire that Sir Pierce Crosby may be heard concerning the breach of Priviledge in Parliament Also Sir Iohn Clotworthy Nich. Barnewell Nich. Plunket and Sir Iames Montgomery I have some Witnesses to the point of Revenue Sir Robert Pye Sir Edward Warder and Sir Adam Loftus Gentlemen You who are of the Committee I am commanded to let you know That the Lords will allow you all the Testimonies you can produce to make good the Impeachment but the Witnesses which you do produce must be deposed before their Lordships Mr. Pym replied My Lords the Commons agree to it and in the first place we shall call Sir Pierce Crosby who was sworn accordingly My Lords I humbly crave leave whether I may not make my exception to any Witness Yes you may We desire to be heard upon that point of Exception That if my Lord of Strafford will make any Exception why a Witness should not be heard at all it may be according to the Rules of Justice The Lord High Steward declaring the Prisoner might except against the person of the Witness if he have just Cause my Lord of Strafford proceeded in substance as followeth My Lords I humbly conceive that I have against this Gentleman Sir Pierce Crosby just occasion of Exception as not being a competent Witness for that the said Sir Pierce hath been sentenced in the Star-Chamber for a very undue practise against me tending to no less than the taking away of my Life charging me and practising to prove it by Testimony of witness that I had killed a man in Ireland whom I protest I did never so much as touch That ever since the said Sir Pierce having broke Prison and made an Escape out of the Fleet he hath remained abroad and never came hither till such time as the Parliament sate here and now is returned to make Complaint in this business against me or indeed against the Court of Star-Chamber rather And standing thus whether the said Sir Pierce shall be allowed a Witness against me I humbly refer it to Your Lordships Judgments My Lords We expected my Lord of Strafford would have shown on what reason Sir Pierce was censured for a man Criminous in one kind may be nevertheless fit to give Testimony in another kind If it be a particular practice against my Lord of Strafford when their Lordships have heard what that practice was and have heard likewise the Witness they will believe him according to the weight of the Testimony compared with the fault or whatsoever else is in the Sentence But in the mean time they conceive it is no Exception but that the Witness should be heard This that is charged on my Lord of Strafford being a Crime of High Treason it concerns the Common-wealth the King being party and not the Witness that is produced And whereas it is informed that Sir Pierce Crosby brake Prison The Gentleman tells us it is not so he paid the Kings Fine and so was discharged But though he had it will not take away his Testimony when he is present which he said he spake only to give satisfaction to that aspersion I must desire their Lordships directions whether Sir Pierce Crosby be allowed notwithstanding my Lord of Straffords exceptions against him and Mr. Maynards allegations why his Testimony should be given in this case or no And divers of their Lordships called to have the House Adjourned to the House above that they might there debate and determine it Mr. Pym did thereupon offer that they will at present lay him aside till their Lordships have had opportunity to consider and bring him again to morrow whereunto Mr. Maynard added this further We desire rightly to express our selves to Your Lordships We will lay him aside till Your Lordships have heard others not that they wave him wholly And we pray it may be so entred The Lord Steward declaring it so to be It is so understood In the next place we desire that Sir Iohn Clotworthy may be called whom we produce to this point That during the Parliament in Ireland for speaking against a Bill in the Commons House he was threatned by Sir George Ratcliffe whom we take to be bound up in one Cause with my Lord of Strafford and to be moved by my Lord of Straffords spirit and that Parliaments are not Priviledges when Parliament Liberties are not observed Sir Iohn Clotworthy was sworn My Lords We desire he may be asked whether for having delivered his Opinion against a Bill preferred to the Parliament in Ireland by the Earl of Strafford about the 10th year of this King he was not asked by Sir George Ratcliffe concerning a Lease that he had the question intimating a Threat that he should suffer for speaking so freely To which he answered My Lords In the 10th year of the King I serving in Ireland in Parliament did Vote against a Bill as soon as I had Voted against it Sir George Ratcliffe being one of the Tellers on his counting the numbers how many Yea's and how many No's He came to me and said thus Have not you a Lease in such a place I told him yea remember that saith he This is all I can remember And this he added was in the Commons House 2. He being interrogated whether he knew any thing of Sir Pierce Crosbies Commitment or no He answered I know it only

had the fortune to have all the Examinations whereupon they proceeded and looked over them all and now I protest and call God to witness not any way as making to me I found the said Lord to have proceeded as Honourably Justly and Nobly to his understanding as any man could do and yet was decryed as much as any man could be And so I beseech Your Lordships to consider me the Kings Servant and that in the Administration of the Commands and Justice intrusted with me I had occasion to give offence to many and that it hath been the ill fortune of those that have been Governours there when they have left the Government not to be so well reported as otherwise they might be Besides There is nothing in this Charge can possibly amount to Treason admit all to be as it is laid though perhaps to a Misdemeanour That if it be no Treason it will fall to be but Misdemeanour and then I conceive it stands with the Justice and Practice of this Court to allow Councel and Witnesses which I am debarred from by the involving me under the general Charge of Treason and having no further time to prepare then since Friday last That though before I durst not say Your Lordships were bound by Rules of any Judicature but stood to Your own Honour and Nobleness and were a Rule to Your selves and herein I take Your Lordships to witness yet since the Gentlemen at the Barr have prest the rules of other Courts I desire leave to offer That in all ordinary Courts of Judicature that ever I heard of where the Criminal party doth Answer and that Answer is not replyed to nor he admitted to make his proof the Answer of the party is taken and confest from which universal Rule of Justice no man can shew him a transgression And therefore since I cannot be admitted my proofs it being impossible to fetch Witnesses out of Ireland since Friday last my Answer I conceive ought to be admitted and the Charge taken as I confest it not as it is on proof Saving to my self that I said I would go on to give the best Answer I could on a suddain professing That if I had had time I am confident through the mercy and goodness of God and the Innocency of my own heart I should be able to clear my self of Treason the greatest Crime between man and man towards His Majesty and towards his People my heart being innocent of it and never having suggestion or thought but for the Greatness and Honour of His Majesty and the Prosperity and blessed Estate of His People all the days of my life and ever desiring the best things and never satisfied I had done enough but did always desire to do better but also of all other foul Crimes of Injustice or Oppression Errours I may have many perhaps my Tongue hath been too free my Heart perhaps hath lain too near my Tongue but God forbid every word should rise up in Judgment against me If every word that 's spoken amiss should be observ'd who is able to endure it for words spoken ten twelve eight or nine years ago to be brought in Judgment of me is a very heavy Case and I beseech your Lordships to turn the Case inward and to tell me if it be not a hard Case to be put upon such an Examination I shall observe further that words ought to be charged within a certain time by the Proviso in the Stat. in E. 6. time they must be brought in question within 30 days as I take it which Proviso stands good in Law but I go now into a Learning that God knows I have little skill of to this I desire my Councel may in due time be heard to open and Plead In the mean time I desire to say that if popular actions must be concluded within a year or two at the most sure words should be questioned within a less time I shall proceed to maintain the truth of my Answer That Ireland is not governed by the same Laws that England is and for that I shall read a few words in my Lord Cooks Learning which God knows I understand not it is in Calvins Case where the words are So as now the Laws of England became the proper Laws of Ireland And therefore because they have Parliaments holden there whereat they have made divers particular Laws as it appears in the 20 H. 6. 8. and 20. and in Ed. Dyer 360. And for that they retain to this day divers of the ancient Customs the Book of 20 H. 6. holds That Ireland is governed by Laws and Customs separate and divers from the Laws of England Therefore in all things belonging to my Charge that came out of Ireland I hope Your Lordships will take along with you the consideration of the Customs and Practices of that Kingdom and not judge me according to that which hath been the Custom and Practice of the Kingdom of England In the second place I come to the words of Ireland being a conquered Nation The words laid in the Charge being that I should say That Ireland was a conquered Nation and the King might do with them what he pleased And first I should do extreamly ill to the Honour of the English Nation and to the memory of divers of Your Lordships Noble Ancestors if I should not both say and think that Ireland is a conquered Nation when here 's mention made in the Laws and in the Acts of State of English Rebels and Irish Enemies certainly there is something in that for till the Kings of England gave them the advantage and benefit of the Laws of England it is well known they were held Irish Enemies and so termed and stiled in all the Records one shall meet withall in these times And that it was a conquered Nation I have very good Authority in the Statute made 11 Eliz. at the Attainder of that famous Rebel Shan Oneale In one part of which it is said That all the Clergy of the Realm assembled in Armagh at the time of the Conquest c. See the Statute Is it then so much for me to say what 's in the Act and is it not for the Honour of the English Nation to say it and it must be said to the Worlds end for 't is a truth And therefore there is no cause it should be taken so hainously or heard with so much displeasure and if I displease for telling the truth I cannot help it He reads another part of it viz. And therefore it is to be understood that King Hen. 2. the first Conqueror of this Realm c. And so it hath been acknowledged in all stories and times and many an English man hath spent his blood in it whose Posterity will be ashamed to view it other than as a conquered Kingdom Nay I believe many Noble Persons are yet living that have bled for it and will take it ill if it be termed less than a Conquest in them

You are acquitted before God and Men You have an Army in Ireland which You may Imploy here to Reduce this Kingdom or some words to this effect And Sir Henry Vane added That he desires to speak clearly to it It is true My Lord of Strafford said these words You may But by that he the Examinant cannot say it was intended but that the words were spoken and if it were the last hour he is to speak it is the Truth to his best Remembrance Being Asked on the several Motions of my Lord of Clare and my Lord Savil Whether by this Kingdom he meant the Kingdom of England or Scotland and Whether it was meant That he might imploy the Army in England or in Ireland because he said The Army might be there imployed He Answered That he shall as near as he can And because he would have-Truth appear he shall desire That if in this Case any word fall which may be uncouth in the Sence they would resort to his Examinations for there it remains under his Hand and Oath But to his best remembrance he thinks neither then nor there were used But Your Majesty hath an Army in Ireland You may Imploy to reduce this Kingdom But far be it from him the Examinant to Interpret them He tells their Lordships the words and no other Being directed by the Lord Steward to repeat what he had spoken He Answered That he shall plainly and clearly do it These words were spoken as my Lord of Northumberland hath testified at the Committee of Eight for the Scotch Affairs It was an occasion of a Debate Whether an Offensive or a Defensive War with the Kingdom of Scotland That on some Debate then some being of Opinion for a Defensive some for an Offensive War he did say the words related as he conceives That in a Discourse the Earl of Strafford said these words or words to this effect Your Majesty having tryed all wayes and refused in this case of extream necessity and for the Safety of Your Kingdom and People You are loose and absolved from all Rules of Government You are acquitted before God and Men You have an Army in Ireland You may imploy it to reduce this Kingdom Being Asked How long this was after the Parliament was Dissolved He Answered He cannot tell the time but it was suddenly after or within few dayes after the dissolution of the Parliament Being Asked on my Lord of Clares motion Whether these words You have an Army in Ireland did immediately follow these words You are Absolved c. He Answered That to his best remembrance it did interpose and my Lord of Strafford did speak it once or twice And to his best remembrance at first it was agitated to press the Offensive War for there were divers Reasons given as the Kingdom stood then that there should be no Offensive War and he must speak clearly and plainly he the Examinant did move for a Defensive War For the Subjects of England how they stood affected to this War they knew and besides a breach of a Parliament he thought it would but induce an ill effect On these Controversions the words were spoken Here Mr. Whitlock observed That these words were spoken in England on this occasion Of the Kings trying His People c. which cannot be intended any other place but England where the Parliament was broken and where the King had tried his People Being Asked on the motion of the Earl of Southampton Whether he sayes positively my Lord of Strafford did say these words or words to that effect or whether to his best remembrance He Answered That he speaks positively either those words or words to that effect The Earl of Clare desiring further satisfaction to the Question formerly proposed on this Motion Whether he meant by this Kingdom the Kingdom of England or the Kingdom of Scotland The Lord Steward put his Lordship in mind That Sir Henry Vane testifies to the Words not to the Interpretation And Mr. Maynard said The Question is put Whether this Kingdom be this Kingdom And so Mr. Whitlock said They should conclude their Evidence conceiving the last words spoken to be very fully proved and by connexion with those other words proved before he thinks it is very clear and manifest That my Lord of Strafford had a strong Design and Endeavour to subvert and change the Fundamental Laws and Government of England and to bring in an Army upon us to force this Kingdom to submit to an Arbitrary Power That he shall not trouble their Lordships with repitition of words nor with the Application of them for indeed they be above Application and to aggravate them were to allay them they have in themselves more bitterness and horror then he is able to express and so he left them to their Lordships consideration and application expecting my Lord of Straffords Answer to them Only he desired their Lordships in one point to hear what Mr. Treasurer can say further concerning the breach of the last Parliament and what Words and Messages he heard of during the sitting of that Parliament procured by my Lord of Strafford unless their Lordships will reserve that till the rest of the Witnesses come to morrow morning and then they shall be ready to produce all relating to that point together Whereupon liberty was granted for the reserving of them accordingly My Lord of Strafford did hereupon crave of their Lordships leave to recollect his Notes being as he said a little Distracted how to give Answer to these things for diverse Articles are mingled together which will make his Answer not so clear as otherwise he had hoped to have made it but trusts he shall do it still He desires leave to Answer Article by Article and how much horror soever this Gentleman is pleased to say there is in these words he trusts before he goes out of the Room to make it appear that though there may be error of Judgment yet nothing that may give offence when the Antecedents and Consequents are brought together and that he shall give such an account that whether or no their Lordships will clear him as to the Charge of an Indiscreet Man he knows not but as for Treason to the King and His People he shall give clear satisfaction that no such thing was spoken or intended His Lordship desired He might be favoured with the sight of my Lord of Northumberlands Examinations But this Mr Glyn opposed and said His Lordship being to Answer to matter of Fact let him first say how it stands and then prove it To which my Lord of Strafford Answered That in truth they make much more of it then he did for he trusts by the blessing of Almighty God to give the Answer of an honest Man to all Objections he will not say of a discreet Man and once for all he humbly besought their Lordships and so he knows in their Wisdom and Judgment they will to

no greater measure God be praised than these are My Lords these being the words that passed from me in Ireland there are other words that are charged upon me to have been spoken in England but if your Lordships will give me leave though perhaps in no very good method I shall not fail to touch first or last the words in every Article The next Article then that I am charged withal for words is the second Article and these are the words that I should say concerning the Finger and the Loins My Lords I may alledge much new matter but I will observe your Lordships Order punctually by the Grace of God for what I may say in that case if it might be admitted I keep it to my self but the truth is they that do prove the words to be thus That I would make the little finger of the Law heavier than the Kings Loins they do not tell you the occasion of the Speech or what went before or what after for my Lords if they had told the occasion which methinks they should as well have remembred as the words it would plainly and clearly have appeared to your Lordships that Sir William Pennymans Testimony was most true for the occasion was such that to have said those words had been to have spoken against that to which I intended the discourse but speaking them as I said it makes very strong for that purpose to which I directed them which was to appease the Countrey and quiet the Discontents for having been double charged with the Knight-money and therefore it was not properly threatening them further to have provoked them My Lords you have Sir Will. Pennymans testimony that it was so and my profession who under favour will not speak an untruth to save my life I protest before God that I say I verily believe or else I will never speak it indeed and there it is they have proved it to have been said one way we another way we give the occasion of our Speech and disavow theirs and so we must leave it and howsoever these words so spoken can never be drawn as I humbly conceive as premises to prove their conclusions that therefore I am guilty of High Treason they have made me guilty of a foolish Word and that I confess and if they please I will confess it all the day long for I have been foolish all the days of my life and I hope hereafter I shall look unto my ways that I offend not with my Tongue for if I cannot rule it abroad I will rule it within doors else I will never stirr abroad but bound it so to my own business and affairs that I trust I shall give no offence The next Article that chargeth me with words is the 22 Article and these be words spoke in England The first part of them which concerns the bringing in of the Irish Army I have spoken to already but in the conclusion there are other words and shortly the said Earl of Strafford returned to England and to sundry persons declared his opinion to be That His Majesty should first try the Parliament here and if that did not supply him according to his occasions he might then use his Prerogative as he pleased to levy what he needed and that he should be acquitted both of God and Man if he took some other courses to supply himself though it were against the will of his Subjects My Lords as unto this I conceive the Charge is not proved by any Witness that hath been here produced against me and in truth my Lords I must needs say this under favour if it be an error in my Judgement I must humbly crave your Lordships pardon through the whole Cause I have not seen a weaker proof and if I had had time to have gotten my Witnesses out of Ireland I hope that should be proved and so clearly as nothing could be proved more but I must stand or fall to what I have proved and so I do my Lords the proof they offer for this as I conceive is the Testimony of my Lord Primate and his Testimony is That in some discourse betwixt us two touching Levying upon the Subject in case of imminent necessity he found me of opinion that the King might use his Prerogative as he pleased My Lords this is under favour a single Testimony it is of a discourse between him and me and there is not any other that witnesses any thing concerning it so that under favour My Lords I conceive this will not be sufficient to bring me any ways in danger of Treason being but a single Testimony and my Lords it is to be thought and to be believed and it were a great offence for any man to think otherwise that in this case any thing can please the King he is so Gracious and Good but what shall be Just and Lawful and then there is no doubt but so far as with Justice and Lawfulness he may use his Prerogative in case of imminent danger when ordinary means will not be admitted At most he saith it was but an opinion and opinions may make an Heretick but they shall not I trust make a Traitor The next is the Testimony of my Lord Conway and the words that his Lordship testifies are these That in case the King would not be otherwise supplyed by Subsidies he might seek means to help himself though it were against the will of his Subjects Truly my Lords if I should acknowledge these words I do not see how they can be any way Capital in my case but this again is but a single Testimony and there is no other that says it but himself and if there be a good sense given to them certainly the words may very well bear it for I think it is a very natural motion for any man to preserve himself though it be to the disliking of another and why a King should not do it as well as a Subject it is such a prerogative of Kings as I never yet heard of for I thought though they had been Gods on earth yet they are men and have affections as men and should preserve themselves being not only accountable for themselves to God Almighty but also for their Subjects whose Good and Benefit is wrapt up and involved in theirs and therefore the King ought more to regard his own preservation than the Common-wealth The Third is That Mr. Treasurer says that to his best remembrance I did say That if the Parliament should not succeed I would be ready to assist His Majesty any other way God forbid this should be any offence for to say so either in him or me for I will swear if it please you that he said so as well as I therefore God forbid it should endanger either of us both for my Lords to say I will serve the King any other way it is no other than what became a good and faithful servant to do always provided the way be good and lawful

in the ordinary way of Judicature without Bill for so is the present question For the clearing of this I shall propound two things to your Lordships consideration Whether the Rule for expounding the Irish Statute and Customs be one and the same in England as in Ireland That being admitted whether the Parliament in England have cognizance or jurisdiction of things there done in respect of the place because the Kings Writ runs not there For the First in respect of the place the Parliament here hath cognizance there And Secondly If the Rules for expounding the Irish Statutes and Customs be the same here as there this exception as I humbly conceive must fall away In England there is the Common-Law the Statutes the Acts of Parliament and Customs peculiar to certain places differing from the Common-Law If any question arise concerning either a Custom or an Act of Parliament the Common-Law of England the First the Primitive and the General Law that 's the Rule and Expositor of them and of their several extents it is so here it is so in Ireland the Common-Law of England is the Common-Law of Ireland likewise the same here and there in all the parts of it It was introduced into Ireland by King Iohn and afterwards by King Henry 3. by Act of Parliament held in England as appears by the Patent-Rolls of the 30th year of King Henry 3. the first Membrana the words are Quia pro Communi Utilitate terrae Hiberniae unitate terrarum Regis Rex vult de Communi Concilio Regis Provisum est quod omnes Leges Consuetudines quae in Regno Angliae tenentur in Hibernia teneantur eadem terra eisdem legibus subjaceat per easdem Regatur sicut Dominus Iohannes Rex cum ultimò esset in Hibernia statuit fieri mandavit quia c. Rex vult quòd omnia brevia de Communi Iure quae currunt in Anglia similiter currant in Hibernia sub novo sigillo Regis mandatum est Archiepiscopis c. quod pro pace tranquilitate ejusdem terrae per easdem leges eos regi deduci permittant eas in omnibus sequantur in cujus c. Teste Rege apud Woodstock Decimo nono die Septembris Here is an union of both Kingdoms and that by Act of Parliament and the same Laws to be used here as there in omnibus My Lords That nothing might be left here for an exception that is That in Treasons Felonies and other capital offences concerning Life the Irish Laws are not the same as here therefore it is enacted by a Parliament held in England in the 14th year of Edw 2. it is not in print neither but in the Parliament Book that the Laws concerning Life and Member shall be the same in Ireland as in England And that no exception might yet remain in a Parliament held in England The 5th year of Edw. 3. it is Enacted Quod una eadem Lex fiat tam Hibernicis quam Anglicis This Act is enrolled in the Patent Rolls of the 5th year of Edw. 3. Parl. membr 25. The Irish therefore receiving their Laws from hence they send their Students at Law to the Inns of Court in England where they receive their Degree and of them and of the Common-Lawyers of this Kingdom are the Judges made The Petitions have been many from Ireland to send from hence some Judges more learned in the Laws than those they had there It hath been frequent in cases of difficulty there to send sometimes to the Parliament sometimes to the King by advice from the Judges here to send them resolutions of their doubts Amongst many I 'll cite your Lordships only one because it is in a case of Treason upon an Irish Statute and therefore full to this point By a Statute there made the fifth year of Edw. 4. there is a provision made for such as upon suggestions are committed to prison for Treason that the party committed if he can procure 24 Compurgators shall be bailed and let out of prison Two Citizens of Dublin were by a Grand Jury presented to have committed Treason they desired benefit of this Statute that they might be let out of prison upon tender of their Compurgators The words of the Statute of the 5th year of Edw. 4th in Ireland being obscure the Judges there being not satisfied what to do sent the case over to the Queen desired the opinion of the Judges here which was done accordingly The Judges here sent over their opinion which I have out of the Book of Justice Anderson one of the Judges consulted withal The Judges delivered their opinion upon an Irish Statute in case of Treason If it be objected That in this Case the Judges here did not judge upon the party their opinions were only ad informandam Conscientiam of the Judges in Ireland that the Judgement belonged to the Judges there My Lords with submission this and the other Authorities prove that for which they were cited that is that no absurdity no failure of Justice would ensue if this great Judicatory should judge of Treason so made by an Irish Statute The Common-Law rules of judging upon an Irish Statute the Pleas of the Crown for things of life and death are the same here and there this is all that yet hath been offered For the Second point That England hath no power of Judicature for things done in Ireland My Lords the constant practice of all ages proves the contrary Writs of Error in Pleas of the Crown as well as in Civil Causes have in all Kings Reigns been brought here even in the inferior Courts of Westminster-Hall upon Judgment given in the Courts of Ireland the practice is so frequent and so well known as that I shall cite none of them to your Lordships no president will I believe be produced to your Lordships that ever the Case was remanded back again into Ireland because the question arose upon an Irish Statute or Custom Object But it will be said that Writs of Error are only upon failure of justice in Ireland and that suits cannot originally be commenced here for things done in Ireland because the Kings Writ runs not in Ireland Answ. This might be a good Plea in the Kings-Bench and inferior Courts at Westminster-Hall the question is Whether it be so in Parliament The Kings Writ runs not within the County-Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the Five Ports neither did it in Wales before the Union of Henry the 8th's time after the Laws of England were brought into Wales in King Edw. the 1. time Suits were not originally commenced at Westminster-Hall for things done in them yet this never excluded the Parliament-suits for Life Lands and Goods within these jurisdictions are determinable in Parliament as well as in any other parts of the Realm Ireland as appears by the Statute of the Thirtieth year of Henry 3. before-mentioned is united to the Crown of England By