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A20000 Dialogicall discourses of spirits and divels declaring their proper essence, natures, dispositions, and operations, their possessions and dispossessions : with other the appendantes, peculiarly appertaining to those speciall points, verie conducent, and pertinent to the timely procuring of some Christian conformitie in iudgement, for the peaceable compounding of the late sprong controuersies concerning all such intricate and difficult doubts / by [brace] Iohn Deacon, Iohn Walker... Deacon, John, fl. 1585-1616.; Walker, John, preacher. 1601 (1601) STC 6439; ESTC S323 312,434 405

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their censure Exorcistes Not before I haue heard their verdict Orthodoxus Well then Augustine you see hee is the foreman of the Iurie let him therefore if you please deliuer vp the verdict for himselfe and the rest Exorcistes That liketh me maruelous well Orthodoxus This then is that which he saith for him selfe and his fellowes concerning these matters Away with those fained miracles of lying men or rather those woonders wrought by enchaunting diuels Exorcistes This I am sure is a partiall verdict suggested before by some sinister meanes and therefore I will either sue foorth an attaint against the whole iury or remoue the iudgement by a writ of errour Orthodoxus Oh I pray you be patient and let the verdict passe currantly without your coutroulement Exorcistes What reason haue you to perswade me to that Orthodoxus Tertullian doth yeeld you the reason thereof Because Christ saith Tertullian hath vndoubtedly taught vs that the faith of signes and woonders which are easily effected by false Christs and hypocrites is very rash and vncerteine Exorcistes This reason concernes onely the good of the soule Physiologus We hope man you haue that in far greater regard then either the credit of your person or the welfare of your worldly estate Exorcistes Though that be certeinely so yet the other also it must be respected Physiologus Very true Howbeit because you are carried to much a way with carnal respects let Hippocrates his reason suffice for that course who saith thus Those persons which boast that they can cure or remooue the infections of maladies by sacrifices coniurations inuocations enchantments such other like magical meanes they are but beggerly and needy companions wanting promotion or mainteinance And for this onely respect they refer their speech to the diuel because they would be thought to know somewhat more then the vulgar sort Loe this is Hipocrates reason Exorcistes I way not his reason a rush Physiologus Neuer say so for shame least you make men imagine that you neither respect your credit nor conscience Exorcistes Men may imagine what pleaseth themselues howbeit the Lord alone he knoweth the hart Lycanthropus Good Exorcistes be not too singular Exorcistes Why man I may doe nothing against the truth but for the truth Pneumatomachus Wel wel be not wedded too much to your wil neither doe make I beseech you an idle of your owne wit Exorcistes I hope sir I am nether wilfull nor foolishly wise whatsoeuer your selfe or some others imagine Physiologus Then would you not be so wise as you are in your owne conceit but rather yeeld and submit to a more dexteritie Exorcistes Alasse sir I haue not hetherto heard any such sound dexteritie to submit me vnto Orthodoxus Well well Exorcistes there is something that sticks in your stomacke which makes you so loath to relent it is not I hope a vaineglorious conceit of your selfe Whatsoeuer it be we will hope the best Let vs therefore giue ouer for the present and goe take our naturall sleepe It may be when you haue taken counsell at your pillow you will change your opinion If therefore it seemeth good to your selfe I will spend with you againe one hower more in the morning before you depart and giue you the best directions I can In the meane time I wish you good rest and betake you all bodie and soule to the gratious protection and prouidence of the Almightie Physiologus Come then let vs arise and depart The end of the tenth Dialogue The eleuenth Dialogue THE ARGVMENT A summarie Recapitulation of all the premisses concludently repeating and proouing the precedent purpose with a patheticall perswasion to subscribe to the truth thereof The speakers names PHILOLOGVS LYCANTHROPVS PNEVMATOMACHVS PHYSIOLOGVS ORTHODOXVS EXORCISTES Orthodoxus GOod morow to you all my deere brethren what newes I beseech you from Exorcistes this morning Lycanthropus Surely sir so farre as we can perceiue his Euen-song and Morne-song they are one and the same Neuertheles we haue by our vrgent and often entreaties preuailed so much with the man as that he is nowe exceedingly willing to accept of your Christian offer concerning one halfe howers conference before our departure and is heere come for that purpose Orthodoxus The Lords name be blessed for this your good newes For surely so long as he will not obstinately refuse to conferre there may be great hope of his happie conuersion Come on therefore Exorcistes what say you to our matters this morning A verdict or no verdict Exorcistes No verdict at all for any thing hitherto heard Orthodoxus Oh then I perceiue you haue either careleslie ouerslipped or not carefully obserued those things which you heard and therefore it shall not be amisse verie succinctly to recapitulate the whole course of our conference That by this meanes the matters themselues being fitly reduced to your remembrance afresh you may either be constrained to consent to the truth or be otherwise destitute of all excuse by hauing one and the selfesame truth now the second time testified to you For in the mouth of two or three witnesses the truth of these matters they must be so iudicially and so firmely established as all the sworne aduersaries thereof may Iudasly be ashamed and finally confounded Exorcistes Well sir goe an end in your purpose Orthodoxus With verie good will Wherein you must call to remembrance how that vpon the verie first entrance into these our Dialogicall discourses we tooke a due consideration of the essentiall being of spirits and diuels and then next of their vndoubted dominion or power That there are essentiall spirits and diuels we prooued directly from their essentiall creations and effectuall operations answering withall those beastly anthropomorphites and swinish Saduces who in these our daies doe impudently denie that there is either Angell or diuell And this in effect was the summe of our first conference Exorcistes It was so I confesse Orthodoxus The next concerning the vndoubted dominion or power of the diuell it was likewise apparantly prooued that spirits and diuels they haue no such possession in men as the world doth fondly imagine Both because the worde possession is no where in any such sense to be found throughout the whole Bible for that also if the same were so to be found yet must it be taken metaphorically for so onely the Scriptures doe demonstrate their nature operation and power vnto vs. Admitting you therefore the worde possession in a metaphoricall meaning wee confessed that selfesame dominion or power of spirits and diuels to be two-fold Namely either a power of possession or a power of obsession By their power of possession we vnderstood that their authenticall authoritie iurisdiction or interest which they vsurpingly by the operatiue permission of God doe exercise ouer some speciall men in afflicting tormenting and vexing their persons And this their saide power of possession it must needes be we told you either reall or actuall By the reall
let those precise ones beware least in this ouer nice a conceit they do fall before they beware into the Luciferian heresie and be your selfe perswaded of this that notwithstanding these their owle-like hooings and scrikings in corners you shall finde me verie readie to ioyne with you in this point against them all Let them make publike triall thereof whensoeuer they please Exorcistes Alas sir by such my submission I should vtterly depriue my selfe and my familie from all maner of maintenance For not onely I am made destitute alreadie of my former place but which more is I being by this my humble submission discouered and discredited with the Church of God what hope of future preferment Orthodoxus Howsoeuer your late practises haue iustly depriued you from all present supplies for your maintenance Let neither the feare of such want nor the needlesse distrust of any discredit in respect of your humble submission be any meanes to withhold you from the dutifull discharge of a Christian conscience No no be you rather assured of this that your obstinate holding out with a setled pertinacie in this your peeuish opinion it will more discredit you with the true Church of Christ then your humble submission would do by a thousand degrees Neither let any falslie supposed feare of future wants withhold you herein both because true repentance depriues not a man from the fauour of God or his fatherly prouidence but bindeth them so much the more firmely vnto him and for that also this your refusall to yeeld in an onely feare of some falslie supposed wants it would but confirme that hard conceit which many haue had against you of late Who doe generally giue it foorth that howsoeuer you cannot but perceiue your fault concerning these matters you will neuer be brought to acknowledge the same Because in standing thus stoutly as you do to your tackling you do get better maintenance by your imprisonment then you could otherwaies gaine by your enlargement And therefore if it were for none other cause else but to take away occasion from such as seeke for occasion to depraue the holie profession doe you foorthwith submit your selfe to the truth Exorcistes Sir although notwithstanding those the former respects I should willingly submit my selfe to authoritie yet then this vile inconuenience woulde folow thereof namely by that meanes I should be reputed to be in some practise at least with the yoongman at Mahgnitton with Katherine Wright with the boy of Burton and with many other besides Orthodoxus Surely I cannot perceiue how your standing out shoulde possiblie free you from that suspicion with men if once they but reade Master Harsnets booke concerning your authenticall conuention and publike conuiction and those also exactly performed in an orderly course and a iudiciall proceeding if the things he reporteth be reputed for truthes The which also we must be perswaded they are vnles haply we do fondly imagine that the Commissioners themselues the Register also being a sworne publike Notarie the yoongman at Mahgnitton the seuerall deponents being orderly deposed and secretly examined apart yea and you your owne selfe vpon your corporall oath were all iointly and by one vniforme consent confederate togither to finde your selfe giltie concerning the causes and circumstances so iudicially propounded and prosecuted And therefore vnlesse you be throughly able to discredit that course as a matter but forged false and erronious your standing out as you do in the premisses it will rather aggrauate then lessen your fault and apparantly demonstrate a badde disposition both purposely perpetrating and peeuishly persisting in euill Exorcistes Your selfe then it should seeme is fully perswaded that I and the boie by a precompacted confederacie haue purposely deluded and coosened the world Orthodoxus How some others esteeme of it I know not for my owne part I assure you I am verie farre from such a suspicion Yea and this also I dare say for so many besides as haue beene acquainted with your former sinceritie and vpright cariage they are euerie of them free from such a perswasion This onely is that which we entertaine and verie confidently hold for a truth Namely that the gracelesse boy did gracelesly counterfeite and knauishly beare the world in hand he was really possessed of Satan when there was no such matter at all But concerning your owne selfe we do vndoubtedly thinke that you being fully perswaded of the perpetuitie of reall possessions as also most strongly deluded with an erronious opinion of your owne abilitie for the powerfull dispossessing of diuels by prayer and fasting did thereupon simply vndertake that trifling worke This then is our opinion concerning your selfe in the action namely that the same was simply your errour in iudgement but no purposed errour in your practize at all This is that we would haue you reuoke and this is that wherin we would haue you submit your selfe to authoritie And why should you not willingly yeeld to the same Thinke you it impossible for your selfe to be deluded by the diuell or to be deceiued at all by a cogging companion Was not the reuerend father Maister Foxe and many others besides as grosly beguiled by such counterfeit crankes as euer was you with this your faisely possessed patient And therefore yeeld your submission for shame Exorcistes Nay sir the yoongman I dare assure you he did not counterfeite the matter but was actually possessed at least Else you may likewise affirme that his owne sister Mary Cooper did but counterfeite For she also euen in the selfesame manner was fearefully tormented by fits Very certeine it is that she did not counterfeite at all but was vndoubtedly possest by the diuel Orthodoxus She was vndoubtedly euen so possessed as her brother before her was repossessed which thing also you prognosticated accordingly as it came to passe howbeit neither of both their fits were true fits indeed but meere counterfeit fictions For first if Marie Cooper was truely possessed by whose prayer and fasting was she dispossessed I pray you There was none other meanes vsed to coniure out the diuell from her but the onely bare newes of your owne and her brothers conuention before authoritie It should seeme she was simply possessed either with some cowardly diuell that could not or with some curteous diuell that would not aduenture the triall and therefore in a peaceable manner they did voluntarily forgoe the habitation which they possessed in peace And as for the repossession which you so constantly foretold and auouched to be in the boy the same is no lesse absurd then his sisters possession expressed before For if there was in him such a repossession in deed then where was your reioynder for the casting of him out by prayer and fasting Either he was not repossessed at all and so your prognostication prooued false or else not your selfe by praier and fasting but Iudge Anderson rather by procuring a Processe de vilaica remouenda did driue out that daugerous diuell In
neither flesh nor bones but I haue both therefore no spirit Putting down there you see very apparant and manifest properties to seperate himselfe in shew from a spirit And therefore if spirits and diuels haue power by any possible meanes to transforme themselues but into the onely outward formes and shapes of true naturall bodies though not substantially transformed in deed yet could not that which Christ concludeth haue soundly established the disciples faith concerning the true body of Christ. Because they by reason of such supposed apparitions remaining still doubtfull might haue fitly replied thus Good sir though spirits and diuels haue not substantially flesh and bones and therefore no true and substantiall bodies yet can they truely transforme themselues into the outward shapes and formes of true naturall bodies and so notwithstanding we may be deceiued in an onely outward appearance These exceptions you see the disciples of Christ they might iustly haue made neither if these transformations be vndoubtedly true might Christ so sharply haue blamed their vnbeleefe Lycanthropus Spirits I confesse they are not palpable but only visible and therefore not the seing without the handling might wel haue satisfied Christ his disciples Orthodoxus Yea but whatsoeuer you imagine of the other disciples if you rightly way and exactly consider the text it selfe with the seuerall circumstances you may plainely perceiue that the fault of Thomas his incredulity was secondly bewraied and condemned for that the durst neither credit the vewe taken by the other disciples nor trust his owne eies concerning the truth of Christs body For saith Christ because thou hast seen not because thou hast felt thou beleeuest Also blessed are they that beleeue and see not and not they that beleeue and feele not Giuing thereby to vnderstand that our corporall eies may truely discerne betweene a spirit and a true naturall body which were not true if spirits and diuels could possibly transforme themselues into any visible shapes or formes of true bodies for thereby the sence of seeing might soone be deluded And in very deed it is very erronious for any to imagine that the eies may possibly be deceiued in discerning between spirits and diuels and true naturall bodies as appeareth by sundry scriptures Wherein Christ very sharply reprooueth his owne disciples for not crediting the iudgment of their owne eies in such a case Which could not I say be a certeine rule if spirits and diuels can truely and essentially transforme themselues into true naturall bodies or but change themselues into the true shapes and formes of such bodies And this I beleeue doth break the very neck of those your supposed transformations of spirits and diuels whatsoeuer Lycanthropus This that you say is vndoubtedly true and yet still me thinke the diuell should haue power so to transforme himselfe either in substance or appearance at least although I my selfe am vnable to render any one reason thereof Orthodoxus It is verie ridiculous saith one for a man to leaue manifest things and such as euen by naturall reason may soundly be prooued and so to seeke after vnknowen things which by no likelyhood may be conceiued nor yet tried out by any rule of reason but Good Lord how light of credit is the wauering minde of man How vnto lies and tales his eares attentiue all they can Lycanthropus Good maister Orthodoxus I am drawen by the very force of your speech into a maruelous perplexitie For when I examine the weight of your reasons propounded I am driuen to denie the transformation of spirits and diuels but so soone as I returne to the necessarie consideration of my present distressed estate then that former new-bredde conceit is cut in the necke and squashed quite Orthodoxus And why so I praie you Lycanthropus Surely sir because I my selfe am essentially transformed into a woolfe I make no question but that diuels can also substantially change themselues into any true naturall bodie Orthodoxus Verie true as you say the one is euery way as possible as is the other Lycanthropus Why then alas the Lord be mercifull to vs for what man in the world may possiblie be free from their malice Philologus How now Lycanthropus are you indeed in good earnest doe you verilie imagine you are essentially transformed into a woolfe now surely this is the oddest iest that euer I heard Lycanthropus Nay nay alas it passeth a iest for I finde it and feele it to true by experience Physiologus Well said Lycanthropus now I perceiue your name was not giuen you for nought it being so proportionablie answerable to your phantasticall nature You are called Lycanthropus that is a man transformed to a woolfe which name is verie fitlie deriued from the verie disease it selfe that disorders your braine called Lycanthropia Which worde some Physitions do translate Daemonium Lupinum that is a wooluish Demoniacke others Lupina melancholica and Lupina insania that is a wooluish melancholie or a wooluish furie and madnes And it is nothing else in effect but an infirmitie arising vpon such phantasticall imaginations as do might●ly disorder and trouble the braine Lycanthropus An infirmitie say you It is a verie strange and fearefull infirmitie that can so essentially transforme a man into a verie naturall woolfe God blesse euery good man from such kinde of infirmities Physiologus Had you liued in such a time as beasts and beares woolues were supposed to speake like men it had beene an easie matter I perceiue to perswade you that you are a woolfe Lycanthropus Yea but how are you able to perswade me the contrarie Physiologus That may easily be done by describing briefly vnto you the verie true nature of that the aforesaid diseases which so fearefully affecteth your minde with these phantasticall imaginations and fond conceits Lycanthropus I praie you then describe it plainly vnto me Physiologus With verie good will Wherein you must principally consider that the verie first matter which causeth Ly●anthropie or this wooluish Demoniacke consisteth in the very selfesame matter or stuffe that maketh in any other man else a melancholike humour for either of both are melancholike persons Howbeit the peculiar cause it selfe which more especially procureth Lycanthropie is either that kinde of mela●choly which ariseth properly of choler adust or that which comes of a simple and naturall melancholie Sometimes also it proceedes of an impostume of bloud in the braine but verie seldome of bloudadust Now then that Lycanthropie which ariseth onely of the abundance of a simple melancholie as it is for the most part the verie woorst of all therefore is called Lupina insania a wooluish furie or madnes so is it commonly seated in the exteriour parts of the braine and hath an operation not vnlike to the matter of a desease called Karabitus which is a hotte impostume of the head seated in the verie ventricle of the braine it selfe causing choller adust and the melancholike matter verie much