Selected quad for the lemma: judgement_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
judgement_n	court_n	king_n	plea_n	2,093	5	10.1113	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63176	The tryal of Henry Baron Delamere for high-treason, in Westminster-Hall, the 14th day of January, 1685, before the Right Honourable George Lord Jeffreys, Baron of Wemm, Lord High Chancellour of England, constituted Lord High Steward on that occasion on which day, after a full hearing, the Lord Delamere was acquitted from all matters laid to his charge.	Warrington, Henry Booth, Earl of, 1652-1694, defendant.	1686 (1686)	Wing T2189; ESTC R23568	84,177	92

care that no injury be done to the Law and truly I take this Plea to be altogether dilatory and I suppose your Lordship is satisfied of it and will not insist upon it L. Delamere If your Grace please It was alledged and agreed in the Case of my Lord of Bristol that the Cause of a Peer in time of Parliament properly belong'd only to the House of Lords And that which possessed the House of Lords of his Case was as I apprehend no more than is in my Case a petition upon the account of being absent and there the Lords claim the cognizance of the whole Cause and nothing was done but in the House of Lords And as to the Instances your Grace has mentioned of my Lord Cornwallis and there was another of them my Lord Morley this Question was never under Debate in those Cases therefore I suppose they cannot be admitted as Precedents L. H. Steward But my Lord it would have been an Errour in the whole Proceedings if this Court had not Jurisdiction And sure the Judges who are always called to assist in such Cases and who in matters of life even in the Cases of common persons are so tender and careful that there be no irregularity in the Proceedings would not have let things pass in that manner had they been erroneous L. Delamere My Lord I think no other Precedents are produced but those two and there the Question was never debated L. H. Steward I only put you in mind of those that were lately within memory but no question of it there are a great many more Instances to be given Mr. Attor Gen. I pray your Grace's Judgment to over-rule the Plea and that my Lord may plead in chief L. Delamere I hope your Grace will be pleased to assign me Councel to put my Plea in Form and that I may have time for it that they may be heard to make a solemn Argument in Law L. H. Steward My Lord if you insist upon it and think it worth the while to have Councel heard we will hear them L. Delamere I submit it to your Grace I only offer it that I may not be wanting to the support of the Peers Priviledges I assure your Grace I speak not to put off the Cause for I am willing to come to my Tryal and I have reason so to be for I question not but to make my innocence appear L. H. Steward My Lord I tell you what my opinion of the Plea is but if you insist upon it to have your Councel heard I will hear them L. Delamere I have no Councel here if your Grace please to give me time to send for them and that they may prepare to argue it Mr. Attor Gen. No my Lord If your Grace will hear Councel I for the King must pray that it may be done presently for a Plea to the Jurisdiction is never favoured nor is the party to be allowed time to maintain it but he must be ready at the time it is offered L. Delamere Pray My Lord how was it done in the Case of Fitz-Harris his Plea was a Plea to the Jurisdiction and he had four days allowed him to put his Plea in form and to instruct his Councel L. H. Steward I am not able at present to remember what was done in such or such a particular Case But according to the general method and course of Law the Plea to the Jurisdiction is not favoured nor time allowed to it but the party must be ready to maintain it presently Mr. Attorn Gen. But with Submission my Lord That Case of Fitz Harris is nothing to this Noble Lord's Case neither There was a formal Plea put in in Writing and drawn up in Latine and a formal Demurrer joined and thereupon I did take time to speak to it But with your Grace's favour by the Law the Prisoner must be always ready to make good his Plea if he will oust the Court of their Jurisdiction L. H. Steward Mr. Attorney If my Lord Delamere does insist upon having his Councel heard it is not fit for me to refuse hearing what they can say Mr. Attor Gen. But that must be presently then My Lord. L. Delamere It is my Duty my Lord to submit to what your Grace and my noble Lords shall determine I would insist upon nothing that should offend your Grace or them Mr. Att. Gen. If your Grace pleases You are the only Judge in this Case in Matters of Law For these Noble Lords the Peers are only Tryers of the Fact Therefore I appeal to your Grace's Judgment and pray for the King that this Plea may be over-ruled it being vitious and naught both in Form and Substance Lord H. Steward My Lord Delamere I must acquaint you That according to the Constitution of this Court Matters of Law are determined by Me as the sole Judge while I have the Honour to act under this Commission But if your Lordship insist upon it to have your Councel heard God forbid that I should deny it You. I will hear what your Councel will say and afterwards I will according to the best of my Understanding deliver my Judgment Lord Delamere My Lord I have never had any Councel assigned me Lord H. Steward My Lord If You have any Councel ready we will Hear them Lord Delamere If your Grace please to assign me Councel and give me Time to send for them and them Time to prepare I will obey your Grace's Directions but I could have none here ready because none were assigned me Lord H. Steward My Lord You cannot by the Course of Law have Councel allowed You in the Case of a Capital Crime till such time as the Court where You are called to Answer is apprized that there is some Matter of Law in your Case that may need Councel to be heard to Inform their Judgment and which they may think convenient to hear Councel to For if in case any Prisoner at the Barr shall before-hand be allowed to have Councel to start frivolous Objections such as this and we all know that there are some who will be easily prevailed with to endeavour to pick Holes where there are none and to offer Matters foreign from the things whereof the Party stands accused and upon the Prisoner's bare Request Councel must be heard to every trivial Point the Courts of Law would never be at an end in any Tryal but some dilatory Matter or other would be found to retard the Proceedings But it does not consist with the Grandeur of the Court nor your Lordship's Interest to let such a frivolous Plea interrupt your Lordship's Tryal However if your Lordship has Councel ready I will not refuse to hear them Lord Delamere My Lord I hope the Priviledge of the Peers of England is not frivolous I assure your Grace I do not offer this Matter as if I thought it more conducing to my Interest than my Tryal now No my Lord it is not for my self but for the

one day to another for that is clear you may and has been practised for that is the Case of the Earl of Somerset and his Wife But the Question is Whether after the Prisoner is upon his Tryall and the Evidence for the King is given the Lords being as we may term it Charged with the Prisoner the Peers Tryers may separate for a time which is the consequent of an Adjournment to another day And my Lord the Judges presume to acquaint your Grace that this is a matter wholly new to them and that they know not upon recollection of all that they can remember to have read that either this matter was done or questioned whether it might or might not be done in any Case My Lord If the matter had been formerly done or been brought into question in any Case where it had received a determination and reported in any of our Books of Law then it would have been our duty to contribute all our Reading and Experience for the satisfaction of this great Court But being as it is a new question and a question that not only concerns the particular Case of this Noble Lord at the Barr but is to be a president in all Cases of the like nature for the future All we can do is to acquaint your Grace and my Noble Lords what the Law is in the inferiour Courts in Cases of the like nature and the Reason of the Law in those points and then leave the Jurisdiction of this Court to its proper Judgment My Lord in the first place where the Tryal is by a Jury there the Law is clear the Jury once charged can never be discharged till they have given their Verdict this is clear and the reason of that is for fear of Corruption and tampering with the Jury an Officer is sworn to keep the Jury together without permitting them to separate or any one to converse with them for no man knows what may happen for though the Law requires honest men should be returned upon Juryes and without a known Objection are presumed to be probi legales homines yet they are weak men and perhaps may be wrought upon by undue Applications This My Lord it is said fails in this Case because the Lords that are to try a Peer are Persons of that great Integrity and Honour that there is not the least presumption of their being to be prevailed upon in any such way and for that reason because of the confidence which the Law reposes and justly in Persons of their Quality they are not sworn as common ordinary Jurors are but are charged and deliver their Verdict upon Honour My Lord in the Case of a Tryal of a Peer in Parliament as your Grace was pleased to observe and as is very well known by late Experience there the matter has been Adjourned till another day and for divers days the Evidence being given in several Parcells and yet there the danger is as great if any were to be supposed of tampering But whether the Lords being Judges in that Case and in this Case only in the nature of a Jury makes the difference though in both Cases it is but like a Verdict for they give their Opinions Seriatim whether the Peer tryed be Guilty or not Guilty that they submit to your Graces consideration Upon the whole matter My Lord whether their being Judges in the one and not in the other instance alters the Case or whether the Reason of Law in inferiour Courts why the Jury are not permitted to seperate till they have discharged themselves by their Verdict may have any influence upon this Case where that reason seems to fail the Prisoner being to be tryed by his Peers that are men of unquestionable unsuspected Integrity and Honour we can't presume so far as to make any Determination in a point that is both new to us and of great Consequence in it self but think it the properest way for us having laid matters as we conceive them before your Grace and my Lords to submit the Jurisdiction of your own Court to your own determination L. H. Steward My Lords I confess I would always be very tender of the Priviledge of the Peers wherever I find them concerned but truly I apprehend according to the best of my understanding that this Court is held before me It is my Warrant that convenes the Prisoner to this Barr. It is my Summons that brings the Peers together to try him and so I take my self to be Judge of the Court. My Lords 't is true may withdraw and they may call the Judges to them to assist them which shews they have an extraordinary Priviledge in some Cases more before the High Steward than Juries have in inferior Courts in Cases of common Persons For if it be in a common Case no Jury can call either Counsell or Judges to assist them in the absence of the Prisoner but if they will have advice it must be asked in open Court in the presence of the party accused But now My Lords if you have a mind to consult with me in private as I now sit by Virtue of this Commission which is his Majesties Warrant for me to hold this Court I could not withdraw with you but you must ask all your questions of me in the presence of the Prisoner in open Court whereas if it were in full Parliament as were the Cases of my Lord Stafford and my Lord of Pembroke then he that were the High Steward might go along with you when you withdrew and consult with you and give his Opinion which I cannot do in this Case for I am bound to sit in Court while you withdraw to consider of the Evidence and am not to hear any thing said to me but what is said in open Court in the presence of the Prisoner except it be when you deliver your Verdict This I confess my Lords has a great weight with me and I know your Lordships will be very tender of proceeding in such a Case any way but according to Law For though you are Judges of your own Priviledges yet with Submission you are not Judges of the Law of this Court for that I take to be my Province Why then Suppose my Lords I should take upon me to do as my Lord Delamere desires and adjourn the Court and suppose the Law should fall out to be that indeed I ought not so to have done would it be any advantage to this Noble Peer if he should be acquitted by your Lorships after such an Adjournment might not the evil consequence of that be that he might be Indicted for the same crime and tryed again For all the Proceedings after that would be Void and lyable to be reversed And if on the other side your Lordships should think fit upon the Evidence you have now heard and what he shall say for himself to convict him after I have adjourned as is desired and I pass Judgment upon him as it will be

Stew. Where did you part with my Lord Delamere and when Edlin Upon Thursday the 28 th of May at Hitchin L. H. Stew. What time of the day was it when you parted Edlin It was about 10 of the Clock L. H. Stew. He went forward Post into Cheshire did he not Edlin He did not go Post I suppose for he went upon his own Horse L. H. Stew. Did he go upon his own Horse Edlin It was the same Horse he went to Hitchin upon L. H. Stew. Have you any more Witnesses my Lord L. Delamere No My Lord I hope I have given their Lordships satisfaction in all points and need to give no further Evidence L. H. Stew. Have you any thing more then to say My Lord L. Delamere My Lords I acknowledge I did go at that time privately a By-Road and by the name of Brown and as for Jones who it is said came from Holland that day I appeal to him himself and I call God to Witness I never saw the man before now in my life nay till after I was made a Prisoner upon this account I never so much as heard of his Name and your Lordships see by the Proofs that all that has been said against me except what this Fellow Saxon has testified is but hearsay nay indeed but hearsay upon hearsay at the third and fourth hand My Lords if People will make use of my name and say this and that and the other and among themselves talk of Messages sent to me can I or any man in the world help it at this rate who can be innocent If a man must be guilty because others intend to draw him into Treason For there is no more in the utmost that this proof can amount unto It is at the pleasure of any two men in the world to take away the Lives Honours and Estates of any of your Lordships if it be a proof sufficient to make you guilty of Treason for them to swear you were intended to be drawn into Treason And my Lords as to the truth of the thing it self that there was any Message or Correspondence between the late D. of Monmouth and me I call God to witness I have neither wrote nor sent Letter or Message to him or received Letter or Message from him this 3 years I cannot tell what expectation he might have concerning me or any body else It is very probable he might have expectation of assistance from some body and that without such expectations he would not have made the attempt he did But my Lords all that is nothing to me I had no correspondence either by Letters or Messages with him so that all that has been said upon that point of his expectation and what he declared I must give the same answer to that I gave to the Evidence about Jones's Message That admitting it to be true he did declare so yet no proof being made of an actual correspondence it is no more but only an intention in him to draw men into the Commission of Treason and if that be allow'd for proof of guilt I must repeat it again there 's no man can be innocent Upon the whole matter my Lord I must leave my Case to the consideration of your Lordships I am not Master of so much Law or Rhetorick as the Kings Counsel to plead in my own Cause and I have had but little time to recollect and apply my defence to my accusation but I hope what Evidence I have offered has given your Lordships full satisfaction that I am not guilty of what I stand charged with And after all that has been said my Lords I would beg your Lordships to consider this that if in case I were guilty of these things and were conscious to my self of having been ingaged in an Affair of this nature can any man imagine I could have been so hardy as to have surrendred my self upon the Kings Proclamation nay if I with those other two Gentlemen that he has named had had any transactions of this kind with such a Fellow as he has been made appear to be by his Neighbours that must needs be thought a man of no Faith because of no Reputation tho' he gives himself a great Character as a man of great Interest of wonderful dispatch and dexterity in the management of such matters so as at first sight to put this large confidence in him Can it be imagined I so little regarded my own Life and all that is dear to me as to have surrendred my self were it not that I was certain of my own innocence and integrity Life it self my Lords is to be preferred above all things but Honour and Innocence And Job saith Skin for skin and all that a man hath will he give for his life and why should I be presumed to have so little a value for it as voluntarily to deliver up my self to destruction had I been conscious that there was any one who could really testifie any thing that could hurt me Besides My Lords this very Fellow Saxon is but one Evidence and how far you will believe him I must submit it to you but surely one Witness will never be sufficient to convict a man of Treason tho' thousands of hear-says and such trival circumstances be tacked to it especially when they are tacked to an Evidence which I dare say your Lordships are far from thinking it deserves any Credit My Lords I desire your leave to ask this one Question Would not any of your Lordships think himself in a bad condition as to his Fortune if he could produce no better Evidence to prove his Title to his Estate than what has been produced against me this day to take away my Life and if such Evidence as this would not be sufficient to support a Title to an Estate certainly it can never be thought sufficient to deprive a man of Life Honour Estate and all My Lords I am not the only Man that has been or may be falsely accused God knows how soon the misfortune of a False Accusation may fall to the Lot of any of your Lordships I pray God it never may but since that may happen I question not but your Lordships will be very cautious how by an easy Credulity you give incouragement to such a wickedness For Knights of the Post will not end in my Tryal if they prosper in their Villany and perhaps it may come home to some of your Lordships if such practices be incouraged as I cannot but firmly believe they will not My Lords the Eyes of all the Nation are upon your Proceedings this day Nay I may say your Lordships are now Judging the cause of every man in England that shall happen to come under like Circumstances with my Self at any time hereafter For accordingly as you judge of me now just so will inferior Courts be directed to give their Judgments in like Cases in time to come Your Lordships very well know Blood once spilt can never be