that there are any other traditions of equal necessity to salvation which are not contain'd in these holy Scriptures 2 Note well that though the Church of God hath been a most faithful preserver of these holy Scriptures and hath carefully transmitted them from one generation to another yet it is not the Church which gives authority to the Scriptures as if she by any power in her could make that to be the word of God which is not so or unmake that which is indeed so No but the Church received for the word of God that which was delivered by holy men inspired by the Holy Ghost who gave full evidence of this their inspiration both by the nature of that Doctrine which they delivered and by the mighty miracles which God enabled them to work for the attesting the truth of this Doctrine both preached and written Now the Church which was in being in the first ages when these holy men committed their Doctrine to writing was a most competent witness of their writing those Books which go under their names and accordingly received them as the Sacred writings of such persons divinely inspired and so convey'd them to the next generation Thus the Iewish Church received the Books of Moses and the Prophets and thus the Primitive Christian Church received the writings of the Evangelists and the Apostles as also the Books of the Old Testament both upon the tradition of the Iewish Church and also upon the authority of our Blessed Saviour who own'd and approved of the same And thus the Books both of the Old Testament and the New have ever since by the good Providence of God been preserved in the Christian Church and handed down from one generation to another and so shall be we need not question to the end of the world And this same tradition of the Church whereby these holy Books are distinguished from all others and carefully delivered by the former age to the next following this we give all just regard to and do freely grant that this is of singular use for our information what Books belong to the Canon of Scripture what not and by this tradition we learn that this Book was written by this man under whose name it goes and another by that as for instance this by St. Matthew that by St. Mark c. But whilst the Church thus bears testimony to the Scripture to which testimony we give all due regard she does not I say give authority to it For there is a vast difference betwixt these two It 's the Kings hand and seal which gives authority to a writing containing suppose a grant of this or that priviledg but some credible persons his Secretaries or others who were witnesses to his signing or sealing of that writing may give testimony to it and so procure it to be own'd as authentick Thus the holy Scriptures which are recommended to us by the testimony of the Church derive their authority from God only who hath set to his seal that they are true as I have said both by the miracles that were wrought to confirm the Doctrine contained in them by the holiness of that Doctrine and many other circumstances relating thereto 3 Yet again take notice when I say we give such regard to the testimony of the Church I do not hereby mean the Roman Church as distinct from all others no by no means but the truly Catholick even the whole Christian Church whether of the East or West the North or South For this hath been the constant tradition of the whole Church in all ages ever since the Apostles that these Books were written by men divinely inspired and were given to be the rule of our faith and manners If some doubt was for a while made concerning a Book or two yet when these doubts were removed they were received into the Canon with the rest And this hath been the opinion not only of the Catholick Church but of most Hereticks and Schisinaticks also whose testimony here may be of great force whilst they could not but own the authority of Scripture even though they were confuted by it Yea to this I may add the acknowledgment of Heathens themselves or of Iews who lived in those times that the Books which go under the names of St. Matthew St. Paul c. were indeed written by them Thus we have a general current tradition not only of the Roman but of all other Churches in the world that such and such Books belong to the Canon of Scripture and this is commonly granted by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves And even Heathens and Infidels who wrote against the Christian Religion have own'd these Books to be written by those persons whose names they bear who were eminent in that age for the propagating of our holy Religion So that we have a much more famous and uncontroulable tradition for it than that the Books which are said to be written by Tully Virgil c. are indeed their works which I think no body makes any doubt of Lastly from what hath been said you may infer that though we give just regard to this current tradition of the Universal Church by which these holy Books are convey'd to us as Canonical Scripture yet it does not in the least follow that we are therefore obliged to embrace all those Doctrines and practices of the Roman Church which she would impose upon us under the venerable name of Traditions of the Catholick Church whilst they are for the most part only the private opinions and usages of their own Church many of them of very late date and expresly contrary to the judgment and practice of the Christian Church in the first and purest ages of it as well as to the holy Scripture it self So that there is no more reason for our embracing these traditions of the Romish Church than there was for our Saviour and his Apostles to receive all the traditions of the Iewish Church by many of which they had made void the Commandments of God After all then Tradition rightly understood makes nothing against but apparently for us For if there be any other Tradition as universal as this of the Books of Holy Scripture our Church readily embraces it as before has been exprest And we will own that the summ of our Faith is brought down by Tradition viz. in the very form of baptizing in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and more largely in the Apostles Creed wherein this form is explain'd We grant also that at first the Christian Faith was thus planted by the Preaching of the Gospel before the Books of the New Testament were written But now this our Faith is most plainly and fully contained in these Sacred Books whereas the additional Doctrines of the Romish Church are no more brought down by Universal Tradition than they are contain'd in the Holy Scripture which we assert to be the only sure and perfect rule of Faith and manners and upon all accounts much
A DIALOGUE BETWIXT TWO PROTESTANTS In Answer to a Popish Catechism CALLED A Short Catechism against all Sectaries Plainly shewing That the Members of the Church of ENGLAND are no Sectaries but true Catholicks and that our Church is a sound part of Christ's Holy Catholick Church in whose Communion therefore the people of this Nation are most strictly bound in Conscience to remain In Two Parts If any man preach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed Gal. 1. 9. LONDON Printed for Samuell Tidmarsh at the Kings-Head in Cornhill next House to the Royal Exchange 1685. THE PREFACE I Do not think there needs any excuse to be made for answering a Book written against our Religion If there were I could truly produce that common one of being put upon it by Friends For it 's now more than a year since some very worthy Friends to whom my Obligations are too great to dispute their Commands did put into my bands a little Popish Book called A Short Catechism against all Sectaries said to be Translated by C. M. desiring me to write a plain Answer thereto by way of Dialogue such as might be fitted for the capacities of common people In obedience to whom I presently betook my self to the work wherein I have proceeded very slowly being daily interrupted with other employments But now at length having finish'd it I present it to the World heartily wishing it may have a success answerable to the truth and goodness of the cause I maintain and to the design both of my self in Writing and Publishing it and of my Friends in putting me upon it I am not so vain as to pretend to have said any thing new on a Subject so very common and which for a long time hath exercised the Pens of very many persons of greatest Wil and Learning both in our own and other Nations Let it suffice what I hope without any vanity may be said that I think I have here delivered certain and solid Truth in plain and easie Words that even he that runs may read and understand the same I can also truly add that in answering this my Popish Author I have used all manner of honest and fair dealing as becomes a sincere Lover of Truth I have not indeed always followed him word for word especially not in his second and third Chapters in the former of which he endeavours to prove That Protestants have not the marks of a true Church in the latter That the Church of Rome hath them These two I have handled together and though I have left out much of his reviling Language which I thought needed no answer nor deserved any notice yet I do not know that I have past over any one Argument either there or in any other place Some perhaps may look on it as a fault that I have often followed him too punctually which has occasioned the frequent repetition of the same things but this may be useful to some Readers If I have not every where quoted his very words as for the most part I have done yet I am sure I have never willingly misrepresented his sense nor proposed his Arguments with disadvantage but rather have added what I thought might give strength thereto And as I know not that I have any where overlooked one Argument without answering it so neither have I returned any answer but what in my Conscience I thought to be just and true and with which my own mind is well satisfied I have not so confined my self to this Author but that I have also taken notice of some other points which he never mentions And though I may be far enough from having spoken to all that are in controversy betwixt us and the Church of Rome yet I think I have not wholly omitted those which are of greatest weight At least I am well assured that I have said enough to satisfy any considering impartial person that there is not the least reason why any Man should depart from the Communion of the Church of England and betake himself to that of Rome Since the Romish Church has no manner of Authority over us and is moreover guilty of retaining and imposing such gross and dangerous Errors and Corruptions as render her Communion utterly unlawful and unsafe even to those who have been born and bred in her bosom How unreasonable then is it for us to revolt to her And indeed my chief design in this undertaking is to confirm those of our own Church in strict Communion with it having little hope of bringing over many Proselytes from the Church of Rome Where I can expect but few Readers I must not look for many Converts Those Guides who are not willing to trust their People with the Holy Scriptures which yet they say are on their side will be less willing they should read the Books of those whom they account their Enemies and too oft they account us so as the Jews did our Saviour meerly for telling them the truth But if any of that Persuasion should be so ingenuous as to give this little Book a fair Reading and shall bring along with him a mind as free from passion and prejudice as the Author had in Writing it I dare say that it will either perswade him to become a Member of our most excellent Church or at least convince him that we who are already so have great reason not to depart from it Since this our departure beside all other faults involved in it would render us guilty of an apparent Schism And this guilt I reckon is most justly chargeable on the Papists amongst us And not on them only but also on those Protestant Dissenters as they are commonly called of what Denomination soever who separate from us into distinct Societies which they set up in opposition to our Church as by Law established For if in this Church all things needful to salvation are afforded and no sinful condition imposed then do they make a causeless sinful separation who withdraw from its Communion Neither can these our Dissenters justly plead the same Arguments for their Separation from us that our Church can for its withdrawing from the Church of Rome or rather for Reforming her self from the corruptions of that Church as I have briefly shewn toward the end of this Treatise They who would see this more fully demonstrated let them read a Discourse which purposely handles this Subject being one of the Cases lately Written as is said by some of the London Ministers And indeed I scarce know any Books that I would sooner recommend to the Common Reader for his direction in these matters than all those Discourses which treat of the several points in difference betwixt our Church and the Non-conformists and also of some of those betwixt us and the Papists And are generally Written with such clearness of judgment and with such calmness and good temper as may render them more acceptable and more useful through God's
their case seems most pitiable who through the disadvantage of their education want due means of instruction and what allowances our gracious God will make on that and the like accounts is fittest for us to leave to his own infinite wisdom Only let us be careful to regulate our own practices by the plain rule of Gods holy Word which through his favour we so plentifully enjoy L. What you say shall teach me more charity to those of them that are sincere than they will allow to us But I do still more and more perceive how little reason there is for my entring into communion with that Church in which there is so great hazard of Salvation even no more than for my venturing into a Pest-house full of infected persons because it 's possible some of them may have so much strength of nature as to overcome that dangerous distemper T. The case is much the same CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy L. HAving now received so full satisfaction in this first great point concerning the true Catholick Church what it is and who are the members of it and being upon good grounds firmly perswaded that the Church of England is a very sound part of this Catholick Church in whose communion therefore by Gods grace I hope to live and die I would in the next place gladly hear you discourse of some of those particular points wherein chiefly the difference lyes betwixt us and the Church of Rome For they alledg many plansible reasons and sometimes quote Scripture for those opinions of theirs which we reject as Popery and therefore I would gladly be furnisht with solid and good answers to these their Allegations T. Most readily shall I afford you my assistance herein Only let me premise that suppose in this or that particular opinion you should fancy their Church had the truth on her side yea though it really was so yet is this no sufficient reason why you should go over to their communion since from what has been said you may discern that their Church has no manner of jurisdiction over ours which we shall presently make more plain and you cannot lawfully desert your own Church meerly because you apprehend there is some error commonly received in it whilst you have liberty to hold communion with it without owning and professing that error And though for my own part I declare I do not know so much as any one material point of difference wherein the Church of Rome has the truth on her side yet this I speak with respect to those who in some particular cases may be of another mind and afterward may have occasion to make use of it accordingly But now proceed to those several points wherein you desire satisfaction L. I will so and shall herein follow the method in which I find them laid down in this little Book to which I have hitherto had recourse And the first thing here mention'd is concerning one Pope in the Church viz. the Bishop of Rome who is they say to be own'd as the visible Head and Governour of the whole Church under Christ. T. This is indeed the most fundamental point of the Romish faith by which chiefly they stand distinguisht from all other Churches and as such I have often upon occasion mention'd it already and have told you that there is not a word of it in the Apostles Creed which is the summ of the Christian Faith nor yet in the Holy Scriptures whence that Creed was taken which may be sufficient prejudice against it but pray what do they alledg in proof of it L. Both this my Author and others commonly plead that as there is one Emperour in an Empire one King in a Kingdom one Master in a family so there should be one Pope in the Church T. I think they should rather infer the quite contrary that as there is a Master in every Family a King in every Kingdom c. so in every Diocess there should be a Bishop and in every Nation a Primate or chief Bishop or else a Synod of Bishops from whom there should lye no appeal to any foreign Bishop whatsoever It would indeed have look'd a little more like an argument for their purpose if they could have said that as there is one Emperor over all the Kings and Kingdoms of the world so there ought to be one Pope over all Bishops and Churches But as it appears impossible for one man to govern the whole world so neither is it much easier for one Bishop to govern all the Christians in the world especially if all Nations should embrace Christianity as every good man desires they should But to let pass their little similies and idle fancies do you think if it had been a matter of such necessity to salvation as Papists say it is to own the Pope as Christs Vicar and visible Head of the Catholick Church do you think I say that our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles would not have told us of it and have given strict command to all Christians to obey him and to seek to his Infallible judgment in all doubts and controversies and submit to his authority for the composing of all differences whereas we now find not one syllable to this purpose either in the Gospel or Epistles but Christians are exhorted to obey their own Rulers both Sacred and Civil and to take the Doctrine delivered by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles as the Infallible Rule of their faith and manners and no other Head of the Church do we read of but our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom all power is given in Heaven and Earth as he himself tells us Matt. 28. 18. But he no where tells us that he hath transfer'd all this power to any mortal man nor setled any person as his Vicar and Deputy-Governour of all the Christian world L. Yes they say Christ gave this priviledg to Saint Peter stiling him the Rock on which he would build his Church and giving him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 16 18 19. and from Saint Peter they would have this power to be derived to his Successors the Bishops of Rome T. This is the Text which they commonly bring for their purpose but with how little reason may appear at the very first sight whilst neither is here confer'd upon St. Peter any such power as to be Ruler over all the Christian Church nor the least mention made of any priviledge whatever to be convey'd from him to his Successors at Rome or any other where As to the Rock here spoken of many of the Ancients understand by it the Doctrine which St. Peter had now profest that great fundamental article of the Christian Faith that Iesus was the Christ the Son of the living God But let us suppose it to be meant of his person as he was to be a Preacher of this Doctrine yet
Case since several Writers of their own Church do freely grant that if this Doctrine of Transubstantiation be not true then they may justly be charged with as gross Idolatry as ever was practised in the World And most certainly this Doctrine is not true if any regard may be had to God's Holy Word to clear Reason to our own Senses or to the most Ancient Christian Writers and what they would have more I cannot tell L. I am perfectly satisfied with your Discourse on this point and shall therefore proceed to some other particular T. It 's high time you should and I shall take care to be briefer in the rest only I was willing to insist the longer on this because they reckon it so weighty and important a Doctrine of their Church for the denial of which they look upon us as damnable Hereticks and when they have had power in their hands have treated us accordingly even with all that bloody rage and cruelty which the Idolatrous Heathens of old used toward the Primitive Christians Hereby also you may be convinced how utterly unlawful it is to hold Communion with the Church of Rome which is guilty of Idolatry in this her worship of the Host and imposes the same upon all that joyn with her and therefore what great Reason there was for the Reformation at the first and for our refusal to this day to pollute our Souls by a compliance with such abominations which for ought I can see is as utterly unlawful even though a Man lived in the Dominions of a Popish Prince as it was for the three Children to fall down and worship the Golden Image at Nebuchadnezzar's command And as chearfully might any good Christian venture upon the fiercest flames in this Cause as they did in theirs resting assured if not of a deliverance yet of the Crown and Glory of Martyrs which is a Thousand times better And to conclude when by this instance you are so plainly convinced what a gross and palpable errour is expresly taught and stifly maintained by the Roman Church and as a judgment upon them they seem fallen into it for a discovery of their falshood you may thence easily inferr what opinion is to be had of the Infallibility of that Church and so will be better prepared for the receiving a discovery of any other of their Errors as it shall happen to be made to you To which purpose let us now proceed CHAP. VIII Concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. L. THE next point mentioned in my Author is that of the Mass which he says little about but that it is the unbloody Sacrifice which Christ offered at his last Supper and which he commanded his Apostles to offer for the commemoration of his death T. This belongs to what we have just now been so largely discoursing of Only you are to take notice that the common Doctrine among them is that at the Mass as they call it or at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper there is a true Sacrifice offered which is propitiatory both for the quick and the dead viz. such as are in Purgatory that is tends to procure the pardon of their Sins and freedom from punishment And this they call an unbloody Sacrifice to distinguish it from that which our Blessed Saviour offered on the Cross when he sned his Blood for us Though how it can be unbloody whilst the natural Substance of Blood is there according to their principles is not easie to understand nor how that can be fitly called a commemoration of his death which they say is a Sacrifice of Christ who is there corporally present But in the mean time this notion of a Sacrifice if taken strictly and properly is a meer fiction not having the least countenance from Holy Scripture where we read only that Christ offered up himself a Sacrifice for us on the Cross but not a word of his doing it the night before when he instituted the Holy Communion nor of his being dayly offered up by the Priest to make atonement for sins Nay we expresly read Heb. 9. 26 27 28. that he only once offered up himself and is now gone to appear in the presence of God for us but there 's nothing said of his being offered up to God by others We do indeed freely grant that in this Holy Sacrament we make a solemn commemoration of that Sacrifice which Christ offered up and so may be said to represent to the Father what his Son hath suffered on our behalf that he may graciously incline to bestow on us those Blessings which were so dearly purchased for us And we do in some sort Feast upon this Sacrifice by our eating and drinking of these holy Elements Here also we do make a Sacrifice or an Oblation of our selves both Souls and Bodies unto God as is exprest in our Liturgy in the Prayer after Receiving and here lastly we do offer up our Thanksgivings and Praises as also our Silver and Gold in Charity and Almsgivings which are the Christian Sacrifices still to be used under the Gospel and with which we read God is well pleased Heb. 13. 16. And in some of these senses are we to understand the Ancients when they speak of a Sacrifice or Oblation made to God at the Holy Table Especially if we consider that the Custom amongst them was as Learned Men inform us for the richer sort to bring good store of provision to this Table which they presented as their Oblation or Christian Sacrifice And out of these was taken the Bread and Wine which were Consecrated and made use of in the Holy Communion and the rest was either spent in their Love-feasts or went to the Poor and to the Clergy L. As there seems little reason to stile the Lords-Supper a Sacrifice save in the sense you have explained it so there seems yet less why they should call it a Sacrifice for the dead as well as the living T. Indeed there is no Reason at all for it nor so much as any colour from Scripture But this depends upon their dream of Purgatory of which we have already spoken an Opinion I told you very gainful to the Church on many accounts and particularly this custom of having Masses for the dead though it yields no profit to the dead themselves yet it brings in much to the living I mean to the Priests who receive great store of Money for these their Masses which is sometimes left by the deceased person himself and sometimes given by his Friends on his behalf this being generally looked upon in their Church as a work of extraordinary Charity and you may be sure warmly enough urged by the Priests and earnestly pleaded for from the very same principle that made the Silver smiths so zealous for Diana even because their Trade and Gain depended upon her honour Act. 19. 27. But whatever there may be of seeming Charity to a dead Friend or of real profit to the living Priest in this device most
mans right and yet will not allow him the benefit of having the Will to plead on his own behalf And this is plainly the course of the Roman Church in the present case for the Rulers withhold the Scripture from the people that they may the more easily detain them in a blind obedience to those Doctrines and commands of their own which are contrary to it and which they will not have examined by it And you may well suspect the man has bad wares to put off who will expose them no where but in a dark shop It 's much to be feared that Guide means not well who would have my eyes put out or fast closed that I may follow him blindfold He that teaches falshood as well as he that does evil is afraid of the light that will discover his error But to conclude this whatever Papists may talk of the obscurity of Scripture the true reason why they keep it out of the peoples hands is because it is too plain I mean because it so plainly contradicts several Doctrines and practices that are now current in their Church So plainly does the second Commandment forbid all worship of Images that by their good will they would not have it come into the peoples sight And as plainly doth the holy Scripture in other places forbid the worship of Angels or Saints having Prayers in an unknown tongue the taking away the Cup from the Laity plainly it confutes their Doctrine of Transubstantiation whilst it calls the holy Elements bread after Consecration In these and several other instances doth Scripture so plainly make against them that no wonder if therefore they are so much against the Scripture as that they will not commonly permit the people to read it but keep back from them this key of knowledg L. This seems to be the true reason but so bad a one that they are ashamed to own it And now I return you unseigned thanks for the pains you have taken to confirm me in the truth and to shew me the vanity and weakness of those arguings wherewith they of the Church of Rome do endeavour to excuse and palliate their gross errors and to impose upon common people who are sometimes easily misled T. No great wonder if with their subtilties they impose upon such as cannot well distinguish betwixt specious pretences and solid reasonings And indeed they do in some measure deserve to be imposed upon who will so far trust to their own weak judgments as not to seek direction and assistance from those who are able to give it but do presently conclude that if they themselves cannot answer a cunning Priest no body esse can and thereupon without more ado become his easie proselytes especially when some worldly interest draws them to it which is an argument quickly discerned but not easily resisted Yet it 's strange to see how these same persons when they are gone off from our Church presently seem so humble and modest as to suspect their own judgments they commonly refuse to discourse with our Ministers pretending they are not fit to meddle with controversies nor hold disputes They now refer themselves wholly to the Church their own Sect the Romish Church that must be their Judge and their Guide They might before dispute and yield and be Judges for themselves when they left our Church but now forsooth they are got as the Priest tells them whose word they must take for it into an infallible Church whose Doctrines and commands must never be questioned or examined nor any thing heard that can be objected against them All must be swallow'd without chewing they must believe as the Church believes though what that is they do not well know This is the way that Romish Priests commonly take with them and a cunning way it is for securing of the Converts they have once made but so grosly partial that a man of ordinary discretion may readily discern it and no sincere lover of truth will be drawn to comply with it For how can any man answer it to God or his own conscience to depart from that Church wherein he has been baptized and educated without a fair hearing what can be said for it and when he is drawn away into another Church becomes so fixed and resolute that he 'l hear nothing that can be said against it But you I confess have acted at another rate and I cannot but commend your ingenuity and diligence herein which I pray God to succeed for your establishment in that holy Religion in which you have hitherto been instructed and from which I hope you 'l never be perverted For it is the very truth of God taught by his Son Jesus in his holy Gospel the only infallible rule of Faith and Manners L. I do stedfastly believe that it is so and by the grace of God will never depart from it T. Does your Author meddle with no other points of controversie betwixt us and the Church of Rome L. He mentions no more that I find looking upon these I suppose as most material but toward the end of this Chapter he heaps up many bitter invectives against our Ministers as if they spoke ill of the Romish Church out of meer malice against their consciences only to make Papists envied and hated and that they often cite the holy Scripture to no purpose or to an ill one and do also falsifie and cut off what is not to their liking yea and have put whole Books out of the number of Canonical Scriptures in fine that they do all as the toy takes them without thinking of any judgment or hell to come after T. This is very severe indeed but so grosly false and spiteful that it deserves no more notice or answer than the revilings of an angry scold Only to the last heavy charge of putting out whole Books of Holy Scripture I shall answer a few words and leave you to judge of the rest by what truth you shall find in this accusation Know then that as to the New Testament we receive for Canonical all the same Books which the Church of Rome it self does and all other Christian Churches in the world so far as ever I have heard And as to the Old Testament we receive all those Books which were acknowledged for Canonical by the Iewish Church who are very competent witnesses in this case or by the Christian Church for four hundred years after our Saviour as learned Writers of our Church have demonstrated and particularly Bishop Cozens before named in his History of the Canon of Scripture As to those Books which are called Apocryphal though we have them not in the same esteem with the Sacred Writings of the Old and New Testament yet we have a just value for them as the works of pious men and of great antiquity and our Church appoints Lessons out of them to be publickly read though not on the Lords days thereby recommending them to the people who have them in their
bound in the execution of this their Office to do what belongs to it for the rectifying of mens errors and reforming them from all evil and corrupt practices whether in the worship of God or in their common conversation And thus did those holy and learned men both Bishops and others behave themselves who were the blessed instruments of reforming the Church of England from Popery For the carrying on of which good work God inclined the hearts of our Kings to employ their power for the assistance and encouragement of the Clergy who were engaged in it And herein they did no other than what Hezekiah Iosiah and other pious Kings amongst the Iews did in reforming the Iewish Church And as they needed no new commission from Heaven then for the reformation they wrought having the Law of God to be their rule and warrant no more did our Kings and Bishops whilst they had the Gospel to be theirs according to which they proceeded by degrees Thus in the first place King Henry the Eighth abolished the Popes Supremacy that great fundamental falshood of Popery whilst he retain'd in a manner all other points of it But with great courage and justice he delivered his Kingdom from that yoke of bondage under which the Nation had long groaned even from the Usurpation of the Roman Bishop declaring that he had no manner of power or jurisdiction in his Majesties Dominions but that the King himself next under God and his Christ is Head of this Church that is the Supreme Moderator and Governour over all persons and in all causes as well Ecclesiastical as Civil in these his Realms Wherefore the King with the advice and assistance of his Bishops and Clergy may as lawfully take care for the Reformation of the Church according to the Word of God within his own Dominions as the Kings of Israel or Iudah might do in theirs Yea he is obliged to do it and no foreign power Prince or Prelate hath any the least right to hinder and controul him herein not the Bishop of Rome any more than he of Ierusalem or Antioch And thus far the generality of the Popish Clergy both the Bishops and the Universities concurr'd with the King even such men as Bonner and Gardiner The Popes power being thus broken and abolished this made way for a more thorough Reformation of the Doctrin and worship from many soul errors and superstitions in the days of Edward the Sixth This was for a while interrupted in the reign of Queen Mary but was afterward restored and perfected by the authority of Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory soon after her entrance upon the Government And thus was the Reformation of our Church according to the rule of Gods holy Word most happily begun carried on and compleated in a peaceable orderly and deliberate manner by just and lawful authority even that of the whole Kingdom whether Ecclesiastical or Civil Of which you have an account at large in a late accurate and full History of our Reformation by a Learned hand an Abridgement whereof is done by the same Author in a little room if the History it self be too large for you Our first Reformers then were no Impostors or false Prophets but were indeed sent of God though in an ordinary way being rightly Ordained to the Ministry and duly qualified for that Sacred Office they were guided and directed by the plain Word of God own'd and succeeded by his Providence allow'd and encouraged by his Vicegerents our Kings and Queens and the Reformation at length peaceably and firmly established by the Laws of the Land L. This doubt I think is clearly enough resolved and to me very satisfactorily Pray what 's the next T. He asks whether it can be made good what Luther and Calvin with all Protestants and Presbyterians have so long boasted they could do viz. Reform convincingly any one of the silliest Roman Catholicks that is and to begin let them do it in the matter of the Real Presence L. I do not well understand what he means by this For I think there is no question to be made of it but Luther and Calvin though they were not the Reformers of our Church with other learned Protestants have convincingly reformed many that were Roman Catholicks and in the matter of the Real Presence as well as other points these Converts have been convinced of their error and brought to a sounder judgment agreeable to Scripture and reason T. I think indeed there is more difficulty in finding out the meaning of this question than in answering it though somewhat like it he had before He cannot surely mean that no people who once profest themselves Roman Catholicks as his phrase is have ever been convinced of the errors of the Roman Church so as to forsake the same for thus it hath been with some whole Nations and particularly our own For we grant that in these latter ages our people were generally infected with those errors though from the beginning it was not so And as to Luther and Calvin though they did great service for the Reforming of the Church in their own Countries yet neither they nor any Presbyterians were the chief instruments of that work among us but holy Bishops and many sound and orthodox Preachers ordain'd by them who taught the truth as it is in Jesus and sealed with their blood the truth of what they taught These men by their zealous Preaching their holy living and chearful dying after the example of the Apostles and other Martyrs in the Primitive times did by Gods blessing win over thousands to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel in its native purity rejecting those Popish errors in which before they had been blindly train'd up Wherefore he might as well say that the Apostles never converted any from Heathenism to Christianity as that our Ministers have never reformed any from Popery What then can he mean I can scarce guess what except that they cannot reform a Papist whilst he still remains one which is as if we should say that the Apostles never converted any heathens because whilst they remain'd heathens they were not converted But I am not willing to think him so weak and silly and therefore till he speaks plainer shall trouble my self no more with this but proceed to his next question which runs thus Can you prove to me clearly out of the written word which you teach ought only to be follow'd as the guide to Heaven that the Sabbath-day is commanded by God to be kept on Sunday and that little children are to be baptized L. Part of this was mention'd before viz. that about keeping the Sabbath for which you shew'd there is enough from Scripture to warrant our practice besides the constant custom of the whole Christian Church ever since the Primitive times and I suppose the same may be said for the Baptism of Infants T. I judge it may and that upon very good grounds For we know that Children were admitted members of
promise of Spiritual benefit by this kind of Unction Thus you may still perceive how little reason they have to blame us for having only Two Sacraments whilst they boast of Seven L. I plainly see they have no reason for it since whatever is good and useful in these things we retain and enjoy though we do not call them Sacraments T. But whilst they falsly accuse us of defectiveness herein it beseems them well to consider their own guilt in taking away one half of a true Sacrament I mean the wine in the Communion from the people so plainly contrary to our Saviours institution and the universal practice of the Church for many ages after Such a material defect as this is a most palpable blemish to their Church and cannot be wiped off by their new-fangled Doctrine of Concomitancy devised for the purpose of which I have formerly spoken And even this is a very good reason to keep people from entring into the Church of Rome in that they cannot there partake of the Sacrament of the Lords Supper according to our Saviours appointment one half of it being kept back from them L. And as great reason you have shew'd there is to keep out of their Communion in respect of that part of the Sacrament which they do administer I mean the consecrated bread for this they will have given to none but those who believe it to be God and worship it before they eat it T. You speak a very great truth and it may well seem matter of wonder that ever a society of men calling themselves Christians should have so little regard to Christs own institution and to the peace and welfare of his Church as to make such alterations in the administring this holy Sacrament that no Christian who is well-informed can with a good Conscience partake of it with them For I must declare plainly I do not see how a man can do it without being guilty of Idolatry in Worshipping the Bread and of consenting to Sacriledge in being deprived of the Cup. L. Two such horrid crimes that one would think should startle any man that has not a blind mind or a seared Conscience T. The prejudice of education I confess is very great and few people ever get above it which makes it less strange for those that are born and bred amongst Papists to swallow these things without scruple especially considering in what ignorance their people commonly are kept but for Protestants who have any knowledge in Religion any reverence for the holy Scriptures that ever any of these should revolt from their own Church and break over so many difficulties to get into Communion with the Church of Rome in all her corruptions may justly be matter of wonder and astonishment L. 'T is strange how they can ever bring their Consciences to such a compliance T. God only knows the hearts of men and to his judgment we must leave them But methinks the Case is so plain that no man of competent understanding who considers things impartially and hath a due regard to God's Word and a sincere desire to please God and save his Soul can easily be drawn to approve of those palpable errors and absurdities those scandalous and grosly evil practices which are at this day taught and imposed in the Roman Church And I think it may come to pass through the wise and just Judgement of Almighty God that he hath permitted this corrupt Church so foully to degenerate in some particular instances the better to preserve honest and well-meaning Souls from being carried away with her power pomp and glory and from being deluded by those fine pretences and subtle insinuations which her Agents make use of to draw Disciples after them L. So far there may be a good effect of those bad things wherewith that Church is defiled T. God grant the notoriousness of them may so appear to all that those who are yet innocent may be preserved from being seduced and infected and those who are guilty may become sensible of their sin and danger and do their utmost to reform a Church so polluted or speedily leave her if she hates to be reformed But for your self I hope after all that hath been said there is not the least danger of your forsaking that sound and good Church whereof you are a Member for so corrupt a one as that of Rome is at this day L. By the grace of God I hope there is not For I never could incline to think such a change reasonable but by the discourses now had with you I am more fully perswaded of the utter unlawfulness the folly and infinite hazard of it And whilst I have the use of my reason I am confident I shall always be of the same mind And I trust I shall never be so far forsaken of God as to act contrary to my own setled judgment and conscience T. God forbid you should And since what hath been said may with Gods blessing be sufficient to secure you from deserting your own Church for the Romish I have no inclination to trouble you with any more points in controversie betwixt us and them L. I suppose you have spoken to the most material ready T. I think I have so But there are some others which have been agitated with great heat such particularly as about Justification wherein it consists and on what condition it is obtain'd whether by faith or works and also concerning the merit of good works with others the like About which many of their Authors have written at a very extravagant rate and perhaps some of our own have run into a contrary extreme especially at the beginning of the Reformation when in the heat of opposition they said some such things as cannot well be defended And sometimes there has been much wrangling about words one side taking them in this sense the other in that To instance only in Justification The Popish Writers generally mean thereby though very improperly the same as Sanctification which hath occasion'd much confusion in the Disputations on this subject All that I shall say of it is this Let it be granted that it is only for Christs sake that we are pardoned and saved and we shall readily acknowledg that in order to our obtaining these benefits there is necessarily required on our part that faith which works by love both to God and our Neighbour and produces a sincere obedience to all the precepts of the Gospel As to the merit of good works if the word merit be taken strictly and properly it 's most unreasonable to assert it For certainly our works which are so very mean and imperfect which are performed in the time of this short life and which in duty we are bound to perform which add nothing to God and are done by the assistance of his Grace these works cannot in strict reckoning deserve to be rewarded with eternal glory The holy Scripture most plainly tells us That our goodness extends not to God that
what 's done here below What haste did St. Peter make to rectify Cornelius's mistake when he fell down at his feet He presently bade him stand up telling him that he himself was a Man So St. Paul and St. Barnabas when the people took them for gods and would have worshipped them accordingly they rent their Clothes for indignation and utterly forbad them calling out to them to worship the true and living God as the Angel also did to St. Iohn saying to him I am thy fellow servant worship God Rev. 22. 8 9. And doubtless they are still as zealously concerned for the honour of God as ever they were and can take no pleasure in having his Prerogative any way encroacht upon for their sakes Nor therefore can they be displeased with us for not offering up our prayers or praises to them out of a just and pious fear of robbing God and Christ of their due by giving their Glory to another Displeased I say they cannot be whilst we do herein follow their directions and imitate their example in worshipping God alone through Christ the Mediator For this was their practice when on Earth and this is still their employment in Heaven and this we find required in almost a Thousand places in those Holy Books which the Spirit of God enabled them to write for the guidance of his Church in all following Ages There we find our Blessed Saviour himself teaching us to pray to Our Father which is in Heaven but not a syllable of making any Prayers to his Mother And would he omit any thing that was needful So the Apostles direct us to pray to God continually and in every thing to give him thanks doing all in the name of Jesus Christ but not one word said of praying to Angel or Saint upon any account whatever Nor do they that I remember in all their Writings make the least mention of the Blessed Virgin Mary after our Saviours Ascension except in the first of the Acts where it 's only said that she was together with the rest of the Disciples Not one short prayer do we find any where put up to her no injunction given to any Christian Church in the Epistles sent to them concerning their worship and adoration of her no nor in any Christian Writer for some ages after Whereas we now find the Popish Books of devotion full of such nauseous stuff Yet these are the men who cry up Antiquity and pretend to keep so close to Apostolical tradition and tell us that their Church holds nothing but what this age took from the last and that from the other before it till at length you come to the Apostles themselves but the present instance with many others of like nature sufficiently shews the vanity and falshood of this pretence L. To my apprehension it plainly does and I am apt to think another instance to that purpose may be given in what my Author next mentions viz. concerning Images c. CHAP. XII Of the Worship of Images T. PRAY what says he concerning Images L. He says that the Images and Reliques of Saints are honourable in regard of the Saints to whom they have relation and in regard of God himself since he makes use of them for instruments of his miracles And he brings in his Scholar telling how it vext him to the heart to hear any speak ill of the Images of Christ crucified T. Much rather may it grieve the heart of any good Christian to consider how by the abuse of these Images the great God and our Blessed Saviour are highly dishonoured Though your Author is so cunning as to say nothing of any pictures of God yet such there are among them and of the Sacred Trinity and this vindicated by some of their ablest Writers though most directly contrary to Gods express command by Moses and the Prophets as we find Deut. 4. 15 16. Isa. 40. 18. The reason of which commands does still remain as forcible as ever and will do so to the end of the world Since it then was and ever will be an infinite disparagement and lessening to the glory of Gods incomprehensible Majesty to go about to make any picture or resemblance of him insomuch that some of the wiser Heathens have declared against it As to the Images he mentions viz. of Saints together with their Reliques it 's a fine smooth word he uses when he says they are honourable if by this he meant no more than such an honour or respect as we use in civility to give to the picture of a friend or to somewhat he has left us in remembrance we should comply with him supposing these to be truly the Pictures and Reliques of those Saints whose names they bear yea whether true or false we should not much dispute it But it 's plain by the arguments they use and by the practice of their Church that it is a Religious and not meerly a civil honour which they plead for and give to Images even such an honour as God himself in his Holy Word hath expresly forbid L. It seems so indeed for though he makes use of the comparison which you have now mention'd yet his other arguments do aim at much more For he urges the example of Moses putting off his shoos when God appear'd to him because the ground was holy Exod. 3. And he quotes the words of the Psalmist as he renders them That they should worship the Ark which is called Gods footstool Psal. 99. 5. T. This plainly shews what that honour is which they would have done to Images and it shews also that their cause is very weak and bad which has no better arguments to support it What because Moses at Gods command put off his shoos in that place which was made holy for the time by Gods glorious appearance there must we therefore against Gods express command bow down to Images in which there is no holiness nor any evidence of the Divine presence Or are they of the old Heathenish opinion that by consecration of an Image there is some Divine virtue convey'd to it that the Deity takes up his residence there and does thence bestow favours upon his worshippers This one would think by their practice as I shall after shew As to the Psalmists words they command us not to worship the Ark as he falsly reads it but at or before the Ark Exalt the Lord our God and worship at his footstool that is worship God at or before the Ark where in a more peculiar manner he manifested himself And dare they ascribe this to their Images So v. 9. of that Psalm Worship at his holy hill and so are these places rendred by some Commentators of their own Church You see then what they plead for viz. a worship of the Images themselves with Religious worship for this it is that the arguments they make use of tend to if they are of any force But the practice of their Church is the best interpreter of their
judgment and shews what they mean by that due honour which according to the Council of Trent is to be given to Images Now their common custom is according to the account generally given and which I find not any of themselves to deny their custom I say is with great solemnity to consecrate their Images to set them up in their Churches to deck and adorn them with all manner of pomp and bravery they set up Wax lights and burn Incense before them yea with all outward appearance of devotion they bow to them kneel down before them and fasten their eyes upon them when they offer up their prayers Sometimes they carry them about in publick Processions and many take pains to go long Pilgrimages to them some to this Saint some to that and more especially to the Images of the Blessed Virgin in divers places as to the Lady of Loretto in Italy and here of old in England to the Lady of Walsingham and the Lady of Wisden that is to her Image set up in such and such places Hither they came oft for Cures and for help in their distresses and here they presented their offerings Which seems plainly to shew that at least the common people were of opinion that some Divine power resided in these Images and a greater measure of it in some than in others whilst some were much more frequented than others and ten times more stories told of wondrous miracles wrought by them in one place than another L. My Author talks of Gods using them as instruments for the working of miracles T. Whatever he or others may talk I do not in the least question but that the stories they tell of that nature are meer forgeries or else the delusions of evil spirits who cannot but take great delight in Image-worship and may be justly permitted by lying wonders to abuse and harden those that are given up to such impiety according to 2 Thes. 2. 9 10 c. Or lastly they are often the cheats of cunning covetous Priests who easily impose upon a superstitious credulous people Many impostures of this nature have been discovered yea and bewail'd by the more wise and honest among themselves Thus they sometimes make their Images sweat and bleed and squeak and weep with many other tricks of Legerdemain which one or other commonly finds out and so spoils all their game So some travellers have observed that there is seldom a Priest so cunning at these devices but there is a Iew or some such disaffected person who is as cunning to discover and lay open the cheat to the infinite scandal of our profession hardning those that are already Infidels and inclining others to become so whilst these notorious impostures make them ready to call in question the real miracles wrought by our Blessed Saviour and his followers L. This is indeed a great dishonour to our Religion but they commonly urge the miracles done of old as an argument for the truth of those now pretended to be done amongst them especially they tell of miracles wrought at the Tombs of Saints and Martyrs in former times and the same they say are still done by their Reliques which they have in keeping T. This we shall be drawn to believe when we can see them done above-board in the open day where it shall be free for all people to behold and examine the same but till then I say we shall look upon their fine stories as meer cheats or forgeries And among all the pious or rather impious frauds used in their Church there are scarce any more gross or more common than in the matter of Reliques For instance at this day they pretend to shew some of the wood of the Cross on which our Saviour suffered which some of their famous Authors define ought to be worshipped with the highest sort of Divine worship because it touch'd Christs body And such quantities of this wood they have heretofore pretended to show in several places that were they all put together it 's thought they would make a burden to speak modestly by much too heavy for any one man to bear They are also said to retain some of the Blessed Virgins milk though by what art it 's preserved you must not enquire Yea some of the tail of the Ass on which our Saviour rode to Ierusalem with a world more of such ridiculous fopperies that he must be even as stupid and dull as that very brute who can believe the same Several of their Churches lay claim to the body of the same Saint each endeavouring to render themselves more famous than others by pretending to more honourable Reliques and bragging of greater wonders wrought by them the better to draw on customers for the encrease of their gain Yet sometimes after all these pretences it hath been discovered that the bones of a Malefactor have been made use of instead of a Saint or Martyr L. But have there not been true miracles anciently wrought at the Martyrs Tombs T. No doubt but there have for in those days God might please to do it for the conviction of Pagans and for the confirmation of that faith which his holy Martyrs had sealed with their blood Yet even then neither these Saints nor their Reliques were to have Religious worship given them but God alone was to be praised and honoured for them When the dead man was raised by the touching of Elisha's bones 2 King 13. to the God of Elisha was the praise only due but neither the Prophet himself nor his bones were to be worshipped And should any Iew have done it he would have been look'd upon as guilty of Idolatry though he had continued to worship the true God and had pretended that this his worship of the Prophet or his Image or his Bones had been intended for the honour of God This would no doubt have been look'd on as ill as the peoples Idolizing the Brazen Image of the Serpent which Hezekiah therefore broke in pieces He did not think it for Gods honour to have such an evil practice allow'd for God is best honoured by ways of his own appointment not those of our devising contrary to his commands Obedience is better than sacrifice obedience to the true God is certainly better than sacrifice to an Idol or bowing down to an Image which is one sort of Idolatry L. But my Author thinks it a most unjust thing to charge them with Idolatry whilst they do not make Gods of their Saints or their Images but do own and worship the true God not setting up Idols in opposition to him T. I know they use a world of art in this matter and 1000 nice distinctions subtle evasions and smooth pretences they have at hand but after all if that worship of Images which is forbidden in the second Commandment be properly stiled Idolatry then in this respect doth their Church appear notoriously guilty of it L. But do they not use to say that the second Commandment forbids the